Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - 246: A Look Into Our Marriages | Ear Biscuits Ep.246

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

A commitment to dance together through life. Listen to R&L dive deep into their perspectives on marriage as well as what has maintained their own marriages throughout the past few decades on this episode of Ear Biscuits! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, I'm Link. And I'm Rhett. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we are going to be answering your questions.

Lots of good questions. I predict that we're gonna spend most of our time talking about marriage. We'll get into marriage a lot. And I just wanna get into the first one. That's not even. That just feels so abrupt. I mean, that made me feel anxious and uncomfortable.

Oh my goodness, they're answering the question already. I feel like you gotta just ease in, like how are you? How are you doing? I mean like. You don't want to know how I'm doing. I mean like we're here, we're at the studio, you know, it feels good to be able to get out of the house and just come to a place where there's no one

I'm related to directly. You know what I'm saying? You know, no one who's in my immediate family. They're all at another place. They're at the house that I was just at that I shall return to happily. Listen, I hope to be upbeat and I'm not going into negative or complaining mode, but-

Certainly seem like it. The world, you know, I don't know what to say. I really don't, I mean- And I can tell you didn't know what to say, that's why you were like, literally I looked and we were 30 seconds's why you were like, literally I looked and we were 30 seconds in and you were like,

let's get to the first question. Yeah, because like. If that's any indication of just how you feel right now. I'm overwhelmed, man. I mean, do you wanna talk about how we feel? I mean, the last thing I want is to start complaining about something associated with my life at this point. Oh yeah. So I'm not going

to do that. I'm not asking you to. For longer than a few seconds. I'm just, you know, everything that's happening in the world and everything that, between what my personal life and what's happening publicly, I mean, there's just a lot going on. Listen, all you have to do,

here's all you have to do. It's so overwhelming. All you have to do when somebody looks at you and says, what's wrong? You just say 2020. Everybody gets it, man. Just say 2020. But I don't even wanna say, it's not that everything's wrong.

There's a lot that's right that's happening. It's just, it's positive and overwhelming. Yeah. And it's wrong. There's a lot that's right that's happening. It's just, it's positive and overwhelming. Yeah. And it's constant and it should be. You know, I'm not, again, I'm not complaining that every morning there's something, there's a new detail to grapple with in the news and figure out how I personally am gonna respond to that.

And then if we start to talk about how we as companies or as leaders of a company are gonna respond, again, I am not complaining. I am just acknowledging the fact that it is so complicated and overwhelming and necessary. And I'm not wishing for these issues to go away. I'm wishing for coronavirus to go away. Well, yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at

when I was talking about getting out of the house. I was like, I think that there's this, the thing that we've been talking about is, boy, it would be one thing for humanity to be, like humanity addressing one major issue is difficult enough for humanity to do that. When you throw multiple issues at humanity, which is what 2020 has decided to do.

So let's really dig in on systemic racism in America and you know, yes, that's the right thing to do and I'm not trying to escape from that constantly. I'm trying to find ways and we are constantly talking about ways that we can properly be engaged. You just made it sound like that's what we were about to dig into just to clarify. that we can properly be engaged. You just made it sound like that's what we were about to dig into, just to clarify, that's not what we're gonna do.

No, it wasn't. We're gonna be answering your questions. But no matter what you put out, there's an elephant in the room that matters more than other things, that matters the most right now. Black lives matter more than what we're gonna talk about on the show today.

Right. Even to the point where making a decision to talk about anything that's like lighthearted or funny. It feels weird. It just feels weird. It feels weird. I mean, it's like everybody's got stuff they're going through personally too

and everybody's got their own shit they're dealing with. And then, yeah, you're right. 2020 is a doozy. But I don't wanna come across as complaining about it because it's such an important movement and now is the time. And we all need to make sure we're taking care of ourselves and we're having space. Well, I think there's-

But when we come to these microphones and then it's just like, it's tough to know, especially when it's like, do you feel like everything can be scrutinized or criticized when you say something into a microphone? Yeah, well, I think that's the temptation, the temptation, especially for white people who have the privilege to just check out of the conversation

if they want to, if they conclude that they don't have, there's nothing personal at stake. They can be like, I'm just, can we just move on? Can we just talk about something else? And I think your point is, is like, no, we're not moving on and we're not, we're not moving on until real change has taken place. You know, that's why my rec again today,

which when we get to it will be directly related to this stuff. And if you feel that as a white person, you feel that fatigue setting in that like, I gotta think about this. And I was just trying to figure out how to argue with my uncle about coronavirus. And now I gotta argue with him about, you know,

it's like, yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately or fortunately, for better or for worse, yeah, and I do think for better, as what you were getting at, it's like, you got, we gotta keep talking about it because it's just not some thing where there was this movement and everybody got excited and put stuff on Instagram and then all of a sudden,

it's like, okay, we good now? No, no, we're not good, that's the point. We're not good, it isn't good. But how do we transition to having this Ear Biscuit be about something else for a second? And I don't, you know, I just say, I don't want to defend that decision, I just wanna have a conversation.

Well, I think the question itself will demonstrate the awkwardness of the transition. So without further ado, why don't you just ask the first question? See, we could already been halfway through this. But I think that was good. I'm glad that we didn't. Now ask this question.

Praise Sharp, by the way, shout out to Praise Sharp. She was the solver of the riddles that in the Mythical Society that led to uncovering the fact that we were doing a live broadcast of a screening of me watching Ferris Bueller's Day Off for the first time ever. Yeah. And all the clues were wrapped up

in that stereoscopic viewer, which featured movies from the 80s I'd never seen. But wasn't there like a- There were a number of steps and she- Hold on, but there was one still frame on GMM, right? Yeah, there was a clue on GMM that tied back to the stereoscopic viewer and there were a number of steps and she- Hold on, but there was one still frame on GMM, right? Yeah, there was a clue on GMM that tied back to the stereoscopic viewer and there were a number of layers and we could watch it happen in the discord

when it was being solved. That's the kind of stuff that's happening in the Mythical Society. Way to go, Chris. You figured it out. Solving mysteries. Your question, how old were you when you had your first celebrity crush?

Who was it? Hashtag Ear Biscuits. I didn't have like an immediate answer to this. I really had to think about it. The first person I thought about was Daisy Duke from the Dukes of Hazzard. Okay, well. But I mean. She's a controversial choice. Okay, well. But I mean.

She's a controversial choice. Yeah, well, I'm just, as a kid, I watched that show and she wore what came to be known as Daisy Dukes. Right. But all I remember feeling was just weird and tingly. And I didn't really understand or wanna come to grips with anything that was happening. And that was not a plan.

Come to grips with what was happening. How old are you talking about? I mean, that's pretty young, right? I don't know what years, but I think my first real crush that I remember is Vicky. The robot featured in the television show, Small Wonder. The girl who played the lead. Yeah, the robot. in the television show Small Wonder. The girl who played the lead. Yeah, the robot.

The robot. You watched the show, right? I mean, it started in 1985. Yeah. It went to like 1989. I didn't watch it religiously. Oh, I watched it as a religion. I worshiped her as a celebrity crush

because she was a robot. No, I don't know. I just, I was like, oh, she's cute and she's kind of robotic, it's kind of cool. I remember being embarrassed that someone would find out that I had a crush on a robot girl. And it was, I'm trying to, I read a little bit about the story.

But you understood that she was an actor. Well yeah, I knew it was an actress, but like- So it wouldn't have been weird to have a crush on the actor who was playing her. I had a crush on the robot. I had a crush on the character. I liked how she acted like- You wanted a robot girlfriend.

Yeah. Which that is not a good thing. No, no it's not. If you have a robot girlfriend or if you've got one of those real dolls, I'm not saying that that's wrong, but what I'm getting at is if you wanted a woman that you could program and control,

then that's a problem. In place of an actual woman, that could get problematic. That could reveal some bad tendencies about yourself. Which was the point of that Robot Girlfriend song. Yeah. It was a guy who wanted to turn her on and turn her off when he wanted to. Right.

I just thought she was cute, man. I thought it was cute how she- There's definitely more going on than that though, now that you've talked about it. Okay, there's something in there. So her dad was like a technological advanced electronics guy and like he made her and then he made her as a robot and then didn't tell anybody.

So as a family, they had a flesh and blood son. They had Vicki, the robotic daughter. Her name was Vicki, huh? I couldn't have told you that. It stood for something, V-I-C-C-I. Virtual? No. Very ingenuitive, cute.

Ventriloquist. But they kept it a secret that she wasn't a human. Yeah, hence the whole point of the show, right? Yeah, there's a lot of tension there. Yeah. I don't remember... The first crushes that I remember were just girls that I went to school with.

And I remember being in first grade and having crushes on girls. You picked tall girls, which makes sense. Yeah. But then when you started dating, you started dating short girls. Right, yeah. You never dated a tall girl. Well, there was that one girl in college

that was kinda tall that you wanted to date. Yeah, but she didn't date me. No, she didn't wanna date you. I didn't mean to bring it up, but did she tell you? I don't wanna date you. No, I never told her that I wanted to date her. I thought you wrote her a letter or something. I thought you made a play.

I like you, check yes or no. Well, I definitely would not have done that specifically. No, it never became a thing. It never became a thing. Well, she was as close as you got to dating a tall girl. Right, but I mean, I'm in first grade having a crush on Lisa who was in second grade, who was, boy, was she, she was so tall.

And I just think that was coincident. Really, she was the only tall girl that I had a crush on growing up. I mean, name another. Well, I mean, I'm trying not to name names anymore because of, you know. Well, you have a tendency to name first and last names. You don't have to name.

The girl who you would always have dreams about flying to her house. She wasn't tall. She was tall. No, she wasn't. She was taller, she wasn't short. Five four, maybe. Wow. As an adult. No, she's't. She was taller, she wasn't short. Five four maybe. Wow.

As an adult. No, she's taller than that. Five five max. Oh. 100% sure about this. I remember her being tall. Five four. Maybe I just watched her in your dreams.

Your memory is flawed. But what I'm saying is that- Celebrity crush though. Celebrity crush is, I remember and I had to look her name up because as soon as I read this question, Celebrity Crush, there was a model that I remember really, really liking in the 80s as I was sort of becoming myself.

Because I guess in 1987, I'm 10 years old. Like I said, I was already liking girls before that, but the closer and closer I got to like 12, the stronger and stronger these urges got. Christy Turlington. She's still around. Well, yeah, she's not dead. Yeah, is that what you mean?

I think she might still model. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, I'm sure might still model. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I'm sure she does in some capacity. I remember Christy Turlington. But she's like one of those classic supermodels of the 80s that like alongside Cindy Crawford, et cetera. Yeah.

You know, but I just remember seeing her as a boy and just thinking, wow, she's very pretty. I mean, I thought those things too, but it didn't transfer into a crush because I could never date a supermodel. Well, I would go, I would stop at the magazine section. I feel like to me that was a disconnect. I would stop at the magazine section at the grocery store

and because she was on a bunch of covers, right? I would go to that section where there was beautiful women on the covers of magazines. And I'm not talking about the porn section because that's not in the grocery store. I'm not talking about like jugs. I'm talking about like Vogue. Yeah.

You know, there'd be a beautiful- We already knew that. Beautiful woman on the cover and I would just, would just stare. You wouldn't pull the magazine down and thumb through it? Well, cause I think it's important to understand that, you know, and this is the case in most places, but like you didn't walk around Buies Creek

and find a woman that looked like that. Like that does what, you know, we weren't in Los Angeles or whatever, you know, it's like, this was like, it was this something that you're like, does this really exist? And of course now we know, technically no, it doesn't exist

because it's been manipulated. This lighting is perfect. She's got on this makeup in exactly the right way. I'm trying to figure out, I think I know the answer, what's more problematic? You being enamored by this airbrushed woman or me being enamored by a robotic girl? Well, I think what I'm discovering right now is that,

and I think it's one of the reasons that, and I wasn't, this is not the point that I was trying to make and I'm not trying to make a woke point, that's not my intention, but I do think it's one of the reasons that, and I wasn't, this is not the point that I was trying to make, and I'm not trying to make a woke point. That's not my intention. But I do think it's interesting that just as this young boy walking through the grocery store while your mom's picking out Vienna sausages, you're sitting there with your little Vienna sausage

in the magazine section, in the magazine section, staring at these manufactured, beautiful women like Christy Turlington, and just thinking that this is, I remember thinking things like, this is why I exist. It's like, I remember thinking that like, this is what I'm here for. Yeah. To find that. And it's, that is not a good, that is just not a good thing to be thinking, right?

To think that this some manipulated. I couldn't hear what you said. Why is your watch talking? Your watch is trying to give you some advice here. Wow, why would Siri be asking me if I was asking her? I said something that sounds like Siri, but now I'm going to put her to sleep. Sorry, this is like putting Vicki to sleep.

They did that. I just said, Vicki, do not disturb me. And so she will never interrupt us again until I turn it back on. I don't know what my point was. My point was is that it probably wasn't a healthy thing, but I specifically remember when I saw her on TV, cause she was in a bunch of commercials,

she was in a bunch of ads. I mean, and I didn't know her name. I had to look her name up. I didn't know her name at the time. I was like that girl. Yeah. That's what I'm about. Yeah, you were, I wouldn't call it an obsession,

but I mean, we interacted with the female form differently. Expand please. I'm just saying, I didn't gawk at the magazines. I was too embarrassed to do that. I just didn't gawk at the magazines. I was too embarrassed to do that. I was embarrassed that I liked Vicky. I wouldn't like anyone to know. And not to get graphic, I'm just being honest here. In other words, when you as a young boy looked at Vicky,

you didn't think, boy, I wonder what that robot looks like under her clothes, right? And I'm being honest with you. Yeah. That's the kind of thing that I was thinking. When I saw the ad, I was like, okay, what else is there? That's just, that's how I'm wired. Yeah.

It's interesting that I had shame in just having a crush on Vicki. I wouldn't have wanted anyone to know and I would have denied it. I don't think, I mean, I didn't talk, I didn't tell you the girls that I had a crush on, not until like probably middle school. At that point, I was pretty open about it.

The girls that like in school that I had a crush on, like I didn't want anyone to know that. And I remember when- Including them. Yeah, and even in like middle school when people started pairing up and like, oh, she's my girlfriend, we're going together. Like I was really nervous that when I got a girlfriend,

like my family was gonna find out. It's such a weird thing. I remember just being so nervous that they would be like, you've got a girlfriend? What's her name? You weren't scared of them finding out. You were scared of having to talk about it. It was like revealing a part of myself and it's like, I felt like they would know something

about me that I didn't want them to know. That I had a girlfriend, that I liked a girl, that I wanted to hold a girl's hand or kiss a girl. I didn't wanna talk to my parents. But I was embarrassed that they would know. Well, I think that that is normal. I think that the idea, every time I wanna talk to either one of my boys

about girls, immediate embarrassment, right? Yeah. So I think that that's totally normal. I think it would be a little bit odd if they weren't somewhat embarrassed about it, right? I remember being at a baseball game and it was when I was dating Amber and we were watching the baseball game.

You were one of the players. And your mom was there. And I remember- You were one of the players. I remember- You say that like it's some accomplishment. They cut no one from the team. I didn't apply for the team. I didn't care for it.

Yeah, because you misunderstood. It wasn't an application. It was just showing up. You're like, where's the application? I can't be on this team. I learned enough about baseball to know that I needed to be in the stands holding hands with my girlfriend.

I'm sure Amber held my hand. I didn't hold her hand. You're talking about middle school baseball. Yeah, when I dated Amber. Okay, seventh grade. Your mom was sitting there in the bleachers and I'm sitting there and Amber's holding my hand and I just felt so embarrassed

that your mom was gonna see me holding hands with my girlfriend. I get that. Yeah, I guess that's normal. I don't, I think that, and I know that sometimes you feel like you need to check how, How weird I was. How weird you were

because you have said some things that are like, okay, yeah, that's different. But I never. That's unusual. I never looked at- But that's not. I never looked at girls on a magazine cover and thought, man, I just wanna keep thinking about her. I just felt like, that's a woman. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, I'm a boy, that's a woman. That's right. That's what I was thinking. That is a woman. That's what I was thinking. I was a woman. That's what I was thinking. I was like, why doesn't she live in Bowie's Creek? I'm just gonna stay away from the hole that you're digging for yourself.

I don't, I mean, all I've done is I've been honest about the fact that as far back as I can remember, when I saw a beautiful woman, I was very attracted to them. You know what might make this better? Asking another question, which we'll answer after the break. Beepboop2488 says, let's talk marriage. Okay. Will this smooth things over if we talk about

our longstanding love affair with our wives? My wife is not threatened by the things that I thought as a eight year old in the grocery store. I didn't know her at the time. I'm not talking about our wives listening. I'm talking about everyone else listening and how like our interactions with females can be appropriate and mutually edifying.

Yeah. And it not be based on some farce or your own needs or mine of a robot. Just to clarify though, we've talked about a woman on a television show and a woman in a magazine. I'm very skittish. Those are not interactions. I know.

When you talk about women in a magazine, and like self image and the female form and stuff like that, you know, I'm starting to get nervous. I understand. Let's talk marriage. I've been with my husband since I was 19. Now she doesn't say how old she is, she could be 20. But let's assume it's longer than that.

Let's talk about how crazy it is to grow up together, become adults together, become parents together, keep the spark alive and not kill each other in the process. Yes, let's talk about that. That is the goal. Shop Best Buy's ultimate smartphone sale today. Get a Best Buy gift card of up to $200 on select phone activations with major carriers. Visit your nearest Best Buy store today. Terms and conditions apply. Okay, again, the question is talking about growing up together when you got married young, I mean at 19, right?

Yeah. So my wife had just turned, I don't want to get this wrong. I think she just turned 20 I don't wanna get this wrong. I think she just turned 20. She had turned 20. Don't look at me. She had turned 20 in December 1999, and then we got married in June 2001. I was like 20, I guess I was 23 at the time.

Well, I was 21, I turned 22 on our honeymoon. Yeah, because I'm half a year older than you and got married a year after you. So there's like a, yeah. Chris and I have been married 20 years. Right. And you've been married 19 years. I've been married as long as this woman lived

before she got married. And I think maybe she has too. Cause that's kind of wrapped up in her question. She's been through a lot. Well, this made me think about, we did talk about this a little bit in the Lost Years podcast, just the idea of growing up together.

And the thing about getting married young is you haven't become the adult that you're going to be, right? And there's still, at 19, at 20, at early 20s, there's still a lot of change. I mean, there's a lot of change at any point in your life, but especially at that time, like you haven't lived alone. Like you haven't been an adult with responsibilities and all of a sudden you're two adults

with responsibilities figuring life out together. A lot of people who get married at that age get divorced because once they kind of figure out- Who they are. Who they are, they're like, oh, this is not gonna work. But a lot of people, if you're blessed as we have been to kind of be able to grow up together and as you learn and as you grow,

it enhances the connection, which is I think what has happened. But the thing that this made me think of is something that Jessie and I have started doing, which is, I don't remember why we started. I know that she had been watching the first season or the last season, I don't know how many seasons there have been, of this Married at First Sight.

I have not heard of this. Is it a reality competition show? It's not a competition. I don't know if it's a Netflix original or if it's just on Netflix now. We watch it on Netflix. And we just started whatever the latest season, season two, I don't know.

So at first I was just like, me and her like to watch trash, we like to watch trashy reality TV together and laugh at it. Like we watched The Bachelor together. We even watched that Bachelor, the one where they did was basically music. It was American Idol meets Bachelor and they put the couples together

and they had to sing together. Oh gosh. And then had people come and judge it. And it's just like, it was a cringe fest, but we like to watch things that are bad because it entertains us. Makes you feel better about not being that cringe. Not being on that show, yeah.

But this show, which I just assumed was gonna be another one of these shows, the premise of the show is they go to a city. So this season, they're in Charlotte, North Carolina. And all these single people apply and all these single people are like, I wanna get married, I'm ready to get married. And there's a team of experts who are the hosts of the show.

Oh. And they go through all these people, interview them, I don't know all the process. They narrow it down to these four couples that they have out of. So they pair people together. And is this over the course of the season or is this episode one?

Episode one is the selection of the four couples. Okay. Now let me explain to you. This is how it works and this is episode two. Episode two. Is this called Naked and Afraid? Cause that's how I would describe my honeymoon. Nope, but that, yeah.

Just kidding. That's, you would describe my honeymoon. Nope, but that, yeah. Just kidding. You can watch that after. Episode two is the wedding. Of the four couples. And this is, on their wedding day, is the first time they've ever seen each other. Oh my gosh. Never, like when the bride walks down the aisle,

that is the first time that the groom is seeing her. It just doesn't, I mean, my knee jerk reaction is that doesn't sound like they have a very high opinion of marriage. Just like, yeah, let's give this a shot. That is what I thought going in. And that may still be true, but let me, it's- It's just like, oh, this'll be fun.

We can always just get divorced. Now- That's a great way to start a marriage. Now, hold on, now, before you judge it, you're judging it hard right now. I'm judging it. I'm saying this is the assumptions that I'm bringing to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's what makes it so entertaining. Now, the way that the show works is, and this is, if you have a certain view of marriage, you would think that this is wrong. And maybe you fall into this category. And I would probably have fallen into this category before I started watching it. I think differently about it now.

This show has changed what you think about marriage. Oh yeah, I'm gonna explain that. So the way that it works is, they're married for eight weeks, and at the end of eight weeks, you decide if you're gonna stay married or get divorced. That's the season of television, right? And so I don't know what episode we're on right now,

but like the second episode and the third episode. Cameras are following them. Honeymoon, like we just, last night we watched the beginning of the honeymoon. Like, and so there's these questions like, are we gonna have sex on the first night? We literally met this afternoon at our wedding. Are we gonna have sex?

And then I don't wanna, I'm not gonna spoil anything, but there's like, who's gonna have sex? Who's not gonna have sex? And it sounds like I'm talking about spoil anything, but there's like, who's gonna have sex, who's not gonna have sex. And it sounds like I'm talking about a trashy show, right? I would be so afraid to forget my wife's name. Oh, that's what happens when they walk down the aisle, they introduce themselves. It's like, I'm Natalie.

It's like, oh. It still sounded pretty gross. You know when they find out their last name? And again, there's some, at least this season, whether in Charlotte, it's very traditional. It's like four couples, heterosexual couples, men and women, and then all the women are taking the husband's last name.

So the way that they're like, we now introduce to you Mr. and Mrs. Johnson. And the woman's like, Johnson? She's like responding, it's great television. Let me just say, it's great television because of that, because you put yourself in this and woman's like, Johnson? She's like responding, it's great television. Let me just say it's great television because of that because you put yourself in this and you're like, what would it be like? Okay, now, I just thought this was gonna be trashy

reality TV that I was just gonna be laughing at the whole time. The reason my wife likes to watch it with me is I weep when I watch the show. What are you talking about? And I don't mean like, I don't mean like, she'll look over at me and like, I've got like tears in my eyes.

Okay. Like multiple times while watching this show. You got tears in your eyes? Well, I got tears because I'm laughing right now, but- I got tears in my eyes. Yeah, it's making you cry? So- I don't know. But I've been trying to figure out what's going on.

And Jesse, we've been talking about this. And I think there's a number of things. First thing is, is like- Is what's going on in your heart? Well, like why am I responding to the show in this way? And so one thing is that it has hit me that these marriages, which are arranged by someone else, are very similar to my marriage. And let me explain what I mean by that.

What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic? Well, for us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show.

With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes galore. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. When you're young, you don't know what the hell you want. I mean, you don't know what the hell you want when you're old either, but especially when you're young

and you're figuring out who you are, think about how differently I think about literally everything than I did when I was 23, right? 20 years have gone by, I changed in many different ways, ways that we've talked about on the show. Still married to the same woman, who has also changed in similar and different ways. Yeah.

And there's this idea that, oh, well, you gotta be exactly sure about this person. You gotta know everything there is to know about them. You should probably live with them before you get married because you need to know what kind of habits they have. This show calls that into question, right? And calls into question that it's really about someone who is the individuals that make up the marriage

are ready for the commitment that marriage is, right? Yeah. They are prepared to be like, I know you're not perfect. I mean, first of all, a lot of people, one of the things we've been talking about is the process of having experts select your spouse for you is probably at least as reliable as the process of you selecting your spouse for yourself.

Let me just say that, that's a premise, that's a working theory that I have. Yeah. And I'm not talking about we should go back to arranged marriages, I'm just saying that if you wanted to submit yourself to this process, you like to think that no, no, no, no, I would be better at making this decision

because I'm rational, I wanna make sure I'm in love with somebody, whatever your reasons would be. I submit that that initial spark that makes you fall in love with somebody, while it is important, it isn't the thing that, and we talked about this before, but it isn't the thing that maintains a 20 year marriage. Yeah, so let's talk more about the commitment component,

but I do think that when I was trying to figure out if I was gonna propose to Christy, if we were meant to be together, I was doing lots of math, I was doing lots of analysis. Right, yeah. And even when we got engaged, like we went through premarital counseling, which I highly recommend because it can raise flags

that could lead to like, you know what? Let's turn back now. Let's make as an informed decision as we can about the commitment we wanna make. I feel like some of what these experts that you're describing did, Christy and I tried to do in our premarital counseling, we went through this book and it was like,

it was a workbook. Maybe you went through the same workbook. Can't remember what it was called. Like a Tom Nelson. No, but it was in an, oh, you mean like a Tom Nelson evangelical publisher? Yeah, it was like preparing for marriage or something like that.

Yeah, I think it was from a Christian worldview, yeah. But it was very practical. Like it forced, it guided us to talk about things like. Sex. Yeah, like our expectations for sex, but then smaller things like habits, like things that matter to you, small things that are a big deal to you.

Things that, you know, that can be annoyances, like how you deal with money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then putting a plan in place. That could be points of conflict. Points of conflict, you put a plan in place. It's like, okay, we hear each other and we agree and we're planning our future,

but we're also analyzing, like there is a chance, and it felt very slim that our counselor who was walking us through this would be like, you know what? You're not right for each other. Pull the plug, you're not right for each other. I'm sure some counselors do that, ones who were really bold.

I still think this seems like a really great idea. Like I would- This television show? Not the television show. Cause it is a great idea for a television show. Premarital certification. I won't even say counseling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like some sort of third party certification. I mean, as my kids get older and they're like, as they start finding partners, I'll be like, can you agree to a third party certification? I'm making this up right now because I don't like to think about it. Maybe they should just go on this television show. Okay, yeah, they could just go on there.

Okay, I agree. I get what you're saying. I agree with all of it. I'm interested in the commitment component, but like tell me what you're learning. Well, just to add to your thought, to finish your thought. You finished my thought. To add to your thought, to finish your thought. You finished my thought.

To add to your thought. Finish him. I think that, and again, these experts, how qualified are they? I don't know, they got PhDs and shit. But how does that certification process that they are putting these people through compare to the sort of the very small focus group

of the two of you and a counselor? How does it compare? And I'm saying that my suspicion early on, now, first of all, one of the things is like, who's gonna stay together, right? That's one of the fun things about watching it. And Jessie and I were like, oh, this couple, I think they're gonna be okay.

Like we say things like, I think they're gonna be okay. Then this couple, it were like, oh, this couple, I think they're gonna be okay. Like we say things like, I think they're gonna be okay. Then this couple it's like, ooh, like he's really organized and she's not, right? And so you would be like, well, why did they put them together? And you know, sometimes it is a huge problem and sometimes it's not, it really depends. And maybe-

The reason why they put them together is because the producers overrode the experts. That's the thing that I talked to Jessie about. I was like, what do you think? Don't you agree that, because I get into the production side of it. I was like, don't you think that they made the people on this television show sign something that said

that they understood that one of the criteria for them. Casting. Well, them coming together, putting people together is an entertainment quality, right? Sure it's in the fine print somewhere. Yes, you will be matched according to your compatibility, but you will also be matched according to entertainment value.

And they probably didn't say that, they probably just said with the prerogative of the executive producers. So it's probably covered, I'm sure they've got that covered they probably just said with the prerogative of the executive producers. So it's probably covered, I'm sure they've got that covered, Netflix or whoever makes the show. Now, all that being said, I think the reason that I get teary-eyed,

and first of all, there's like one couple that I don't, there's, they elicit nothing. I have no sympathy for them. I don't really like either of them. That's what they sound like, they're meant for each other. And I think they also, I think they have the smallest chance of staying together.

But these other three couples, it's like when like the bride walked down the aisle and like the husband saw her, it was like, I found myself in this, I do this at weddings in general, I get kind of teary eyed at weddings. But I found myself, the first time it happened, I was like, what the hell is happening to me right now? Why am I responding in this way?

And I think that it has a lot to do with thinking about those moments in my marriage in the way that like, Jessie and I did not know what we were doing. Yeah. Like the same sort of like deer in headlights, what have I gotten myself into? Am I ready for this? That is so sensationalized and exaggerated

in this show is something that I felt about that whole period of my life of, you know, we got married when we got married because of the culture that we were in. We got, you know, one of the reasons we got married when we got married is because at the time we were abiding by a worldview that said that premarital sex

wasn't part of God's plan, right? It's like, you wanna have sex, you got to be in a committed marriage specifically, not just a relationship, but a marriage. And that had a deep impact on our decision-making abilities. Exactly, again, I'm saying all this because you may look at this show like you did

and like I did before I watched it and said, this is ridiculous. Why would anybody make a decision to get married based on some experts on a television show? And then you start thinking about the reasons that you get married. And I say none of this to say that, I mean, I was madly in love with my wife, still am,

was drawn to her, we were compatible, we couldn't stay away from each other, we couldn't imagine not having a life together, all those things were in place, but so much of that was just influenced by the nature of who we were at the time and these cultural pressures and expectations and our worldview, right?

And, but that got us into it, right? But none of that stuff keeps you in it. That stuff can, that kind of throws you over the threshold, but it doesn't keep you in the room. Yeah, but they got married in episode one and by episode eight, they're deciding if they're gonna stay together. But really that means is like,

we're gonna pretend to be married for eight weeks. No, legally binding. I know, but they've kind of thrown it out the window. They're like, let's play marriage. Let's be married in an experiment for television for eight weeks, and then we'll decide if we really wanna be married. But to tie it in with our story,

one of the girls on the show, one of the women, she's 27 years old, is a virgin who has saved herself for marriage. Okay. So that feels like there's more at stake because she's gonna give up her virginity, which is very important to her, according to her worldview, and then not stay with this guy

because after eight weeks, it seems like maybe it's not, it's gonna be a little bit difficult. Well, I think that is the question. If she- The fact that she said, okay, again, I'm not making a statement, I'm not promoting the purity culture thing. I'm just saying that the fact that she has saved herself for marriage increases the chances that their marriage

will go beyond the eight weeks. Because she's given up more. Did she continue to, did she wait to have sex until, has she waited so far? They have not consummated yet. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And that supports- At the point that I'm in.

That supports my assertion that- They will though. You think they're gonna hold out, she's gonna hold out for eight weeks? I guarantee you she's gonna do it. She's already basically said that she's going to do it. Oh yeah? Yeah.

Because once she realized that she wants to have sex with him, she's already married to him. And according to her worldview. That's not typically how it happens. She got the okay as soon as she got married to him. Yeah. But she's probably, if she subscribes to that worldview, I think she's probably also subscribed to the worldview

that she can't get divorced unless there's infidelity. So unless he cheats on her in the next eight weeks on this television show, which is probably not gonna happen because there's cameras on him the whole time, she's gonna be married to this guy for a long time. And a lot of times that doesn't work out well. I'm just saying, I'm not judging it good or bad. I'm just saying that that decision

makes it more likely for her to stick around in the marriage room for longer. But how many of these contestants. Don't say contestants, man. Are acting. Couples, married couples. What are they saying about commitment? Things that make me cry.

Really? So they're like, they're sincere, they're not like just tiptoeing around like, hey, this is an experiment. They're not acting the way that I'm saying. No, no. They're acting like our lives depend on this relationship lasting. The reason that I like it is because

the people on the show, the reason I feel about it differently, like when I watch The Bachelor or The Bachelorette or The Bachelor in Paradise, which is the trashiest trash. I've never watched any of these. Me and Jesse even watched that. I'm watching small wonder reruns. We watched that Too Hot to Handle that I tweeted about,

which was, I mean, the whole point of the show was to be trash. When we watch those shows, we just, I just judge the people, the whole point of the show was to be trash. When we watch those shows, I just judge the people, the contestants constantly. And I'm just like, how stupid do you have to be to go on this show? And like, these people don't understand anything about life. These people on Married at First Sight,

like it's a different kind of person. Like they are taking it very seriously. In other words, when you watch The Bachelor, you're like, how many of these women watch The Bachelor, how many of these men are on this show for clout? So they can become reality TV stars. That you don't get that vibe at all from these. It's like, I did this because I wanna be married,

because I see myself as a married person. And I haven't had any luck in that in my own life, trying it my way. So now why don't I let these experts do it for me? And they- It's not that I don't believe in, I mean, I don't know what I think about arranged marriages, but I think that, I do think I have this belief,

which I haven't thought about or like asserted. I'm just gonna vomit this out and see if I can make sense of it, like everything else I say. I've been like, you know what? I believe that arranged marriages could work just as well as unarranged marriages. Now I'm not, I don't want to get into like,

who's arranging it. Like I'm not weighing in on that. But like if you put two people together, if you submit to a process and you're on board for that and it's by your volition, I think on- Both people are equally committed because a lot of times- Yeah, both people are equally-

Arranged marriage and marriage in general can be kind of tied into this patriarchal thinking. Yeah, both people are equally committed because a lot of times arranged marriage and marriage in general can be kind of tied into this patriarchal thinking. But so we're talking about in the perfect world. Yes, we want to be married. I mean, just like in that show, I have thought in general, it could probably work. I think it's part of my, I guess my experience

kind of impacts my opinion in that, like Christy and I were talking the other day about this, a couple, and I know nothing about them, she was like, so and so has announced they're getting a divorce. They're like a very, it's like, they're a motivational speaking couple that they talk about relational dynamics and after like almost 20 years of marriage,

they've decided to just be friends. And I'm like, listen, I don't know anything about this, but if you break up, if you divorce after that long and you just wanna be friends, it's like, when you add the detail that they have a public persona of giving marriage advice, and then that makes sense that, I'm just saying there's an ulterior motive to maintain a friendship to prove that like my voice

is still valid when it comes to relationships. But that's a hard thing to believe that like, you've been married 20 years and you just get divorced and we're still best friends and raising our kids together. It's like, that's freaking complicated. I'm just suspicious, but I know nothing besides what I just said. I know nothing except the thing my wife said to me offhand

and I've come to a firm conclusion about it. But I told Christy, tacked onto that conversation, I was like, we've been through so much together and I can understand being married for 20 years and I mean, we've been through so much together and I can understand being married for 20 years. And I mean, we've changed so much that we could have changed in ways that were so different and divergent that we would get a divorce.

Like, but I'm so grateful that we haven't changed in exactly the same ways and we haven't changed at exactly the same times, but we've gone through so much of it together that we're still very much in it together. And we're on the same page. The book is a big book. I mean, the page, it's not like teetering on a pinhead

that you're trying to like, to stay on the same page. You don't have to believe the same thing about everything. You don't have to have the same instincts. You don't have to be the same person to make it last. Cause Chrissy and I are not the same person. But we've changed in this, it's in like a dance.

There's a give and take and there's a listening and there's a sharing and there's a, it's undergirded by this commitment, I guess, that we are in this together. We are together. We are together. We are gonna go through this together and it's gonna, when it's really hard and it's really, yeah, at times it's really hard.

Well, there was this- But if you come through it, if you come through each of those things, it makes it, you can go into the next one with that much more confidence. The next marriage? The next trial. If you can figure out the first marriage

what you did wrong, go to the second one. A lot of people do say that. I'll do that in my second marriage. I wanna stay here. I know we're staying with this question, but I wanna stay here because one of the things, I don't remember the name of the study. I don't know where this was.

Jesse told me about it. But there was some relationship expert slash psychologist who said that they could look at, they basically set couples down and had them communicate with each other on video. And this person could watch like 20 seconds of the video. I feel like I could do that too. And decide if they're gonna stay together.

And make a very accurate prediction as to whether or not they would be together five years from now. And I'm not getting the numbers exactly right, but it was like an unbelievably short amount of time of seeing them together could make a very predictable, a very reliable prediction about how long they were gonna stay together.

What would you look for? Because I feel like I could do that. Well, here's the thing. I know what I would look for. That's what this show, that's one of the things you're doing as you watch this show. And here's, I firmly believe that while you could get

into some really like analytical, it's not, it's a vibe. And now it is based, hold on, this is important. Because there are things like, me and Jessie have talked about this lately. We've been like, you know how sometimes like, you know someone and you get this, you get a vibe from them and you can be like, I just, I don't, I think this person is duplicitous

or I think that this person, there's something off about this person. Yeah. In their character. And you can kind of sense it, but then you're like, but that feels, that feels judgmental. I'm not basing that on anything other than just a conversation I had with them.

And me and you have noticed this. There's been a couple of times when like, we've met with someone in like a business capacity, and then we'll come out of a meeting and we'll be like, I don't get a good vibe from that guy. And it might be that, but what I have learned is that whatever is happening when I say that to myself is more reliable

than the two hour conversation that me and you might have afterwards trying to rationalize our way into thinking whether or not somebody is worth working with. And that's what I think this psychologist is picking up on is that the human capacity for processing things in a way that you cannot even articulate is way underappreciated by most people.

In other words, the vibe that you get from someone is very often reliable. That doesn't mean you're gonna be wrong sometimes, but I'm just saying that I think that we talked about this because the one couple that we don't think, the look on his face when she says something, the look on her face, the physical, just the way that they seem to be connecting.

And then there's another couple that is immediately, you're like, they got it. They're gonna be together a long time. I can see the way they interact. To me, it comes down to, I mean, if you can, and I don't know how long it takes, it varies from person to person, but if you can tell if somebody's like

a genuine good person, you know? But if I was trying to be specific about my analysis, to me, something that would be a telltale sign was like being able to quantify humility. Like if I could, you know, if I'm listening in on a conversation and it's, you could tell that they don't seem like they're asserting that they've got it all figured out or that they're the type of person

that can say they're sorry. You gotta be willing to be humble and admit your mistakes to stay in a vibrant relationship. And I think when you've been married, as long as we have, You know, I think when you've been married, as long as we have, we know, we really know our partners, right? Like I know Christy, I was gonna say inside and out,

but then that would have been weird. Right, well, sort of true. It's totally true, but I didn't mean it in that way. So get your mind off the magazines, you dirty minded little boy. I am just here. I didn't say anything. I mean, we know each other.

We know everything. We feel like we could predict what the other person would say or think or interact and what, like we know what the other person is capable of as friends. Like people think our friendship is so extraordinary for that reason, but it's like, I feel like that's really a requirement for marriage, for long lasting marriage is like, people are like,

and I guess that's why people say that about our friendship is like, because it's not a marriage and people don't invest that much in friendship, but I think you have to have that in a marriage but it's such a high standard to really know. But what I'm seeing in these couples is like literally, okay, they just got married. But they're not, I mean, you're-

Hold on, but they just got married, and then after they get married, the camera follows them as they walk back through everybody. We present to you Mr. and Mrs. Johnson. They walk through everybody and then they go to this little, they all get married at the same place, someplace in Charlotte.

And then they have their first date. And then they, no, they're just sitting there talking to each other and there's like a bottle of champagne. Like they do it, all the couples have to do it. And it's just like, I looked at the way that these two people interacted with each other in the first moments of ever meeting. And I feel like I can make a reliable prediction.

And that's not what the psychologist was doing. So I don't think, I agree with everything that you're saying that the key to like a continuing marriage is this learning about each other is communicating. But I'm talking about compatibility that gives you the right runway to be able to establish those things

that you're talking about. I feel like it's something that you can just sense in a sixth sense kind of way. Now, there are some people, and this is the case- I think it's unfair to put it on the first time you meet, especially on television after you've gotten married. Because there's plenty of, no, I'm just saying, I'm not saying it's 100% right.

I'm just saying that there is this, you can sense compatibility pretty quickly. But there's lots of people who get married young, did not realize that they weren't, I mean, just because you're the two people, eligible people who get married in your small town in the same year doesn't mean that you're compatible, right? It's statistics.

You just were in the right place at the right time. Then you start trying to figure out, are you actually compatible? And a lot of this, that's where your commitment kind of goes into, like, you've got compatibility and you've got commitment, right? And compatibility on its own cannot keep a marriage together forever.

Commitment on its own can't. Like there are people who hate each other, but because they don't believe in divorce, they're just gonna be together forever. I think that the beautiful marriages are the ones in which there is a compatibility and that compatibility can grow because you change over time that's coupled with a commitment

that then there are these beautiful moments of like, we actually love each other, have a great time with each other, but that's not always gonna happen because I'm a human, you're a human, I'm gonna be an asshole, you're gonna be an asshole. And in those moments to get through the asshole moments. You gotta stay committed.

That's when you gotta have that commitment in place. The only thing I'm saying is how crazy it was to look at these couples and make a decision about compatibility. I would add that it's a commitment to a couple of things. It's not just a commitment to staying together. I think it's a commitment to being, it's the reason why there are vows.

It's like you commit to the certain things that you're gonna do. You serve and love the other person, place their needs before your needs in sickness and in health. Like that sickness thing, that can get real tough, right? Yeah.

And if, you know, so if, and that's a huge commitment and it's a blind commitment and for most people who haven't, you know, cared for someone who's really been sick. So I think it's a commitment to those things that you're promising, that you're gonna make it work. I'm committed to dancing with you.

Sometimes the music is gonna suck. Sometimes our legs are gonna be broken, but we're committed to dancing together through life. Well, and I- And that's something that, it requires constant cooperation and fidelity. Well, and I think that the thing that is difficult for a lot of couples is,

and this should be incorporated into the more traditional vows if it isn't, a commitment to communicate, right? And I think that people have a difficult time and this can be personality based, but you know how sometimes when you're having a difficult moment with someone who's a friend, any relationship,

and sometimes what you have to do is you have to have that meta conversation. You have to talk about the way that you talk to each other. You have to be like, you have to sit, some couples get to a place where, oh, we're not really communicating, we're not connecting anymore. And we have lost the ability to talk about the fact that we're not connecting anymore. And we have lost the ability to talk about the fact

that we're not connecting anymore. And I think that that happens in so many relationships. Right? It's like, if you stop talking about the nature of your connection, it's gonna be very difficult to get the connection back without first addressing that directly. If you're just focused on the superficial stuff,

the specifics of the current argument that you're in, but you haven't gotten to the how do you actually connect and how you communicate, solving this particular problem is not gonna be helpful. It's just gonna just kick the can down the road, you know? And I think that's what you were getting at earlier with the marriage counseling is like, it helps you having a third party a lot of times.

Oh, we can have the uncomfortable conversation that we, for some reason can't have with just the two of us. Right. You break through to that plane, it's a different plane. Not just premarital, but like marriage therapy is very good. You know, sometimes you just have to bring in a third person.

And my therapist is my wife's therapist, which is not necessarily advisable across the board. But in our situation, because a lot of the times what we're doing is we're talking about each other. It's like, well, my therapist has the other side of the story and then occasionally if there's like an acute issue, we'll both go in together. And that has been helpful.

I think knowing that most relationships, I'm not gonna say all, there's this entropy, right, of it, okay, you know, this isn't gonna last forever because we're both imperfect people that are prone to selfishness and we're not the same person. And we, you know, there's so many variables, you never know what could be thrown at us as a couple.

So then it's just having this mentality like, okay, if that's the tendency, then we have to be vigilant about the threats to our relationship from internal and external and just know that, okay, we're gonna identify and we're gonna face these threats head on and not just, because we know that that's what's most likely to happen is that something's gonna sneak up on you

and then a few months you're like, okay, there's a wall that's built up. This is a threat to our marriage long term. It's not just leading to a bad week or a bad month. Right. So I felt like I had this very heightened commitment. Christy's parents are still together. My parents were, in my experience, were never together.

And so I just, I had this mentality that I was gonna stay committed. Divorce was never an option. And I mean, I haven't reassessed all of that mentality. Maybe there's some negative aspects to that. I mean, I haven't reassessed all of that mentality. Maybe there's some negative aspects to that. And I think you can lean on that and it's like, and it minimizes the amount of work that goes into it. You just can't say, well, divorce is not an option.

Like we've already talked about. That's not how you dance. Just by saying, well, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stand here and I'm gonna be here. That's not dancing. Well, and I think statistically, you hear this thrown around, but I mean, I don't know if it's true.

I don't know what the latest statistics are, but I always heard when I was in the church that the divorce rate inside and outside of the church is about the same. I always found that hard to believe just because I didn't see as much divorce in the circles that I was in, because it felt like people were more committed

because they did have this sort of ideological underpinning that included divorce is not an option. And I do think that there is a dark side to that because a lot of times it ends up being, and I've witnessed this, not with friends, but just with people that we like knew in church where there would be like, this person is being emotionally,

maybe even physically abused. Sure, sure. And yet they're staying in this marriage because they have this ideological commitment and that's for them to figure out. Or for the kids or for other reasons. Right, but as it applies to us. I think that, because I mean, my parents are still together,

Jessie's parents are still together. So I didn't have that same sort of like, well, I'm gonna be different. But I brought the same mentality that you did to the marriage is like- It is nice to have it off the table. You know, where you agree from the beginning, from before the beginning of being married,

that like divorce under normal circumstances is not an option. It's not, we're not gonna use it as a relational escape hatch. It's not, we're not gonna use it as a relational escape hatch. It's a last resort. Yeah, and I do think that there is, again, and this is not- When it comes to relational dynamics.

I'm not judging anybody, and I'm not prescribing anything. I would have a difficult time, you know, obviously kids change the picture because now you've got some people who are gonna be affected, especially if they're kids that you're currently raising there in the house. But if it's a couple that, again, just like this show,

which this has become an ad for this show unintentionally, but like, okay, if you believe that getting married and getting divorced on a television show is wrong, then I can't argue with that. I'm not gonna change your mind about that. But if you think that these people came into this on their own volition, then they together made the decision

that they weren't compatible. They haven't brought any kids into this yet. And then they make a decision to mutually separate and get divorced, then I'm not gonna be like, well, you have dishonored the institution of marriage by doing that. And I'm also gonna say that if it's somebody, everyone has their own reasons for it.

But I think that the idea that this commit, this is like, this isn't just a serious thing, this is a commitment that through all these potential circumstances that we're gonna stay together because if we don't think like that, we're gonna see a way out and then in your lowest moments, you might go for the door if you've installed the door. But if you've never installed the door,

you're not gonna leave. But you know what? You could decide at a certain point in your relationship together, hey, let's install the door. If you come to that conclusion as a couple, and you're like, I think that we need to seriously consider that we may not, maybe we're not supposed to be in a relationship with each other.

There was a time in my life when I subscribed to an evangelical worldview where I would be like, that's the devil talking. You can't go there. Cause that's, now you're talking about building the escape hatch and you're gonna do it. And my perspective on that has changed. It's like, it's not my role to judge other couples

and how they go about that, right? But what I can say from speaking from my own experience is that not building the escape hatch, not putting the door in has been one of the reasons I can point to for being married for 19 years, for me. Yeah, and for me too. Yeah, I do get, you know, I'm sure that there's people in our position who are saying similar things

and then down the road they get divorced. Of course. You know, even that couple that I was making all these assumptions about because they're public and they're saying they're friends. That's just me bringing my assumptions to it. I don't even know their names. What are their names?

Let's say them. But it does get complicated. I do wanna make a commitment to not judge other people. I mean, cause it's like, who have been or are going through divorce. I think that's clear because what I hear you and me saying is that if what you have collectively decided to do is this, then there are certain decisions that you can make

to help make that reality become a reality, right? That idea become a reality. But everything that we've- But you've made together decide that you want a different reality. Yeah, well, because everything that we've said seems to imply that the high road is to stay- Married forever.

Married forever. And I used to think that, and there is something beautiful about it. I'm not gonna argue with that. And I do think there is something beautiful about overcoming adversity and just the nature of commitment. But you know what?

There's plenty of examples of people who were in a difficult marriage, not just necessarily one that they needed to get out of for like safety reasons, but just people who mutually discovered that they wanted something different. And now they're in their each and other beautiful committed relationships.

That's a reality as well. And there was a time in my life, again, if you subscribe to sort of a conservative evangelical worldview, then if you really read certain parts of the Bible in a certain way, then those marriages after divorce are illegitimate marriages. Yeah.

And I'm glad that I don't have to think that anymore because the observational, you know, my experience is that, no, actually some of those marriages are better and healthier and better for these people and better for the world than the previous marriage. Yeah, how do you think- And I'm not gonna cancel that marriage because I got some ideological commitment.

Yeah, how do you think my mom felt over the years when like culturally we were in an environment where it was like, you can't, I mean, that's, you failed. Right, something is wrong with you. Twice. Right. You know, you're in your third marriage now. It's like, you failed twice. Yeah. You know,

and that's not what happened. And in many places, you're not qualified to be in leadership if you're in a relationship like that. So. Like you've kind of like, you've got this mark on you and you can never recover. I mean, I think we've said everything through the filter of the lens of we love our wives and they love us and that's who I wanna be with Christy until I die.

You know, cause she'll already be dead, no, or until she dies. I mean, I just want to cover the basis. Until one of us dies. It's called till death do us part. Yeah, I don't want to start like- They took care of that a long time ago. Putting dibs on the who dies first. Yeah.

It's not until I or you die, it's till death do us part. Yeah, that makes it a little less- You don't have to think about who dies first. Yeah. You just say that. Because you don't want to have to unravel that. I told Jessie, she's younger than me, I'm tall, I'm gonna die first. I mean, that's just, I'm just going with the stats,

you know, tall people don't live that long. Sorry, she gets very upset when I start talking like that. So commitment looks different for her than it does for you. Yeah, I'm like, listen, if things go as according to just like nature, you're gonna have at least a few years to just find a new man.

How does that feel? But yeah, I mean, you're joking now. She hates when I talk, I love to joke with her about it. With her about it, yeah. Because she says things like, well, if I died, how long would it take you to get married? And? And then I say things like,

I don't know if I would get married. And then she gets really mad. Oh really? Because she wants you to get married? She don't want you to be a what? A philanderer or a playboy or something? I don't know. And I was like, I just haven't thought about it.

Cross that bridge if we get there. You know what I'm saying? But like, I don't know. I'm a different person. I think if you're honest though, I think what you would say, I know what you would say. You'd say, well, I've been watching this show. I'm gonna go on this show.

It seems like- That's season three of Married at First Sight is everyone is a widow or a widow. Ooh, I think I just gave y'all a good idea. That's gonna get real heavy. Talk about crying while you watch it. Now you gotta hear all the stories of how their spouse died.

That's a bad idea. I mean, but as a producer, they have to think about it. I'd still watch it. They've been talking about it. Oh yeah. Hopefully a producer of Married at First Sight is listening in. So we ended up just talking about.

Marriage. You know, we talked about marriage, but we were really just talking about our marriages. I mean, I talked about those four marriages on that television show as well. I mean, I didn't really get into specifics. So is that your recommendation this week? What's the name of the television show?

I don't know. Arranged and Deranged. I'm gonna give another recommendation on top of that. What is the name of the show? It's Married at First Sight. It's on Netflix. I can only vouch for the most recent season. I don't know what season that is.

It might be season two. I'm only four episodes in, but I do have another rec that goes back to what we were talking about before, which is some of the things that we continue to be dealing with as a society for the betterment of our society. And it's a book that I made a recommendation in my letter to a white man that I wrote,

but I'm gonna talk about it specifically here. And that is, I'm Still Here, Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Channing Brown. And this book, I'm just gonna read the description here that was made by whoever wrote this particular review, the Hello Sunshine book pick, Reese's Book Club. From a leading voice on racial justice, an eye-opening account of growing up black,

Christian and female that exposes how white America, white America's love affair with diversity so often falls short of its ideals. And I know that you started this book as well. Yeah. But the general idea of the book is exactly what was just described there that we can come to this place,

and this is something that is happening in the midst of the movement right now, where a bunch of white people can be like, yes, we value diversity, and we believe that that is something that should be represented in our circles of friends, in our businesses, in society, and in our leadership, in our legislature.

It's the right thing to say, and it's an easy thing to say right now, but it's- Well, and her point is- Challenging to enact. She tells from a very personal perspective what it has been like to be in white spaces as a black woman in spaces that said that this is what they valued

and maybe even thought that this is what they valued, but didn't understand what that actually meant. It's incredibly challenging. It's incredibly eye-opening. I think it actually, I don't know if it was a New York Times bestseller from the beginning or if it has become a New York Times bestseller in the midst of this movement,

but it is a New York Times bestseller because it's two years old, but it is really sort of experiencing this new wave of interest because it speaks so directly to the movement that is happening right now. And I think more importantly, or even more importantly for a couple of white dudes like us is asking the question of what does moving beyond valuing diversity

to making diversity and inclusivity and sort of deconstructing this, you know, white is the norm mentality that a lot of us have without even realizing it. What does it take to break that down? What does it take to move beyond that? Because that's the real work that needs to happen. It's not just recognizing the racial injustice,

it's doing something about it and real change. So I'm still here by Austin Channing Brown, and it is a pretty easy read. So no excuses for not checking this one out. Wherever you check out books, you could just buy the book as well. Don't just check it out. All right. We'll speak at you again next week. You could just buy the book as well. Don't just check it out. All right.

We'll speak at you again next week. And please, as always, contribute to conversation using hashtag Ear Biscuits. Yes.