Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - 255: Is Link Actually Competitive? | Ear Biscuits Ep.255

Episode Date: September 14, 2020

What started as an innocent discussion on board games evolved into a deep, psychoanalytical, vulnerable disagreement. Listen to R&L open their hearts to each other on how they view competition, the effect that has had on their relationship and careers, and why this topic means so much to them on this episode of Ear Biscuits! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is mythical. Shop Best Buy's ultimate smartphone sale today. Get a Best Buy gift card of up to $200 on select phone activations with major carriers. Visit your nearest Best Buy store today. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time, sometimes a really long time.

I'm Link. And I'm Rhett. This week at the round table of dim lighting is the second part of our podcast. Of the conversation that we just finished. That we recorded last, that you listened to last week. But we were sat down and we recorded it all at the same time. Basically what happened as we indicated last week

is that we were having a conversation about board games and I brought up my repeated accusation of Link, which is that I feel that he's just as competitive as me. And that opened a huge can of worms about, man, it just got deep. Well, there's a conversation. And I don't know exactly when Kiko's gonna decide. So what we're about to play for you in the conversation,

it might overlap a little bit. It might backtrack a little bit with where last week's ended before we cut in. I don't know, Kiko, how you're gonna do this, but I think this is an important conversation. And I think it will make you feel better to know that we've had this conversation already that you're about to listen to and everything is okay.

Yeah, we're still good. We are okay. It got kind of intense in a couple of places, but I think it was a good conversation. I'm glad that it happened. I don't know how you're going to interpret it, but as we said at the end of last week, as you interact with this conversation,

as you listen to it, and then as you talk about it online, we would just ask that in the spirit that we tried to embody as we had the discussion, which is a spirit of goodwill, I would say. It's like we said some hard things or whatever, but the whole point of this is not for it to become some competition between the two of us where you're like, well, I think that Rhett was right,

or I think that Link was right, or how can we be illuminating in the way that we continued the conversation, right? How can you be illuminating? How can we all understand each other more? Yeah, and what does this make you think about yourself? You know, not just what you think about one or both of us, but like, how do you relate to some of the things

that we're saying and what does it make you think about your own personal journey and the way that you see the world? And maybe this is, I mean, maybe this isn't the end of the conversation, but it's the beginning of the conversation. And I'm not talking about this episode. I don't know.

I just, you know, I don't know how much it like, I mean, there's more to talk about. You know, we made it sound like this is like crazy. Yeah, I don't think it's crazy. We built it up too much. Yeah, we built it up too much. A conversation about board games became a conversation about our friendship

and the way that we view the interplay between the two of us. Well, just, and here it is. And now you can listen to it. Here it is. Ultimately, everybody wants to be important in some way, right? And people who are in entertainment kind of achieve that

and find their purpose a lot of times in, you know, eliciting a reaction from people. And I would say that you are actually even more focused and committed to getting a reaction from a crowd or from a individual than I am. You think about like the way that you're super, you know, I'm much less concerned about things like, where is this thing and where's the camera

and am I showing, am I opening this box in the right way? In my mind, that's all competitive nature. It's like, you have a commitment to excellence and you're thinking about competitiveness and like I'm throwing a ball faster than a person or not. But like you actually care about that stuff more than I do. And I would call that sort of, I would almost say it's a relentless pursuit

of doing things in a certain way. Perfection is not, I mean, is attained by comparison to like a standard. Yes. But I think it's a stretch to say that that's competition. Like I'm competing against the standard. Now, I also think it's a little muddied by, I don't know, do you get from me in this conversation

that I judge you for being competitive? Yes. That's interesting. Because I think that's really what's going on is that your counterpoint is you feel judged by me for being competitive. So then you're trying to put it on me. I think what I hear you say is that like, hey man, I just don't.

I'm superior because I'm not competitive. I don't bother with like wanting to win a stupid game versus somebody. That's kind of beneath me. But I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I think you're, I just, I don't think that's happening. And I guess in what I'm saying, so that's part of it.

But I also, one of the things I'm saying is that I feel like our entire career is based on a competition, ultimately. I think there's a competition against ourselves and against our like looking back on something that we did and not liking it and wanting to do better. But seeing that as a competition is because you're a competitive person.

I just don't, like we're not competing against ourselves. But we're also constantly competing against each other. So you're saying like a- That's part of it as well. It's like, you think about the way me and you like to divide everything up. Like, it's like, all right, we're gonna do this meeting. So you're gonna say these things

and I'm gonna say these things. Don't say more than me. And we're both equally committed to that. And so if you think- I just don't think I view that as a competition, but- But what is it if it's not a competition? It's something that I care about deeply that's a different thing.

That again, I'm not judging you if you see it as a competition. Well, if it's not a competition- But that's the way you look at the world. And when you see me act in the way that you would, again, I think it's something different. Like me being a perfectionist to a flawed point, absolutely.

Like I could be defensive about like, yeah, I think about how I open boxes, like whatever you're, I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm saying that I think that that, and I don't think that's a bad thing, ultimately is what I'm saying. I think that that, and I don't think that's a bad thing ultimately is what I'm saying.

I think that that is a sign of someone. But I'm saying there are things about me, like I'm a perfectionist, just like you could say I'm a competitive person. And I'm saying, well, there are flaws associated with that, but I'm not putting that on, I'm not judging you being competitive. I'm saying the only thing I guess I was insinuating was

sometimes when you're not competitive and you're around competitive people, it doesn't, it's not a good time. But that's not a judgment on that because you're a bad person. Yeah, I think what I am saying is, I mean, I think that is part of it, but I think what I'm saying is that my understanding

of the competitive spirit is something that I think that there are elements of your personality that are based in a competitive spirit. Yes, that's true. And much more than you give yourself credit for it. Cause I don't think it's a bad thing, right? Because whether you wanna use the term competitive or not, but it's just like, you know,

and I think that the competition, and I don't mean the staged competition, but in every relationship, every marriage, every creative partnership, there's healthy competition. If there's not healthy competition, then it's just one person just doing everything and getting their way. But that isn't the nature of our partnership.

It's just like, I fight for ideas, you fight for ideas. You have things that are important to you. I have things that are important to me. And we fight for those things, right? And the creative process is based in a competitive spirit. I think. For you. I think for me, I want things just as badly as you do and for good reasons and bad reasons,

but I just don't look at that through a lens of competition as readily as you do. And I look through a different lens depending on what the example is. And I just think that's how we see things differently and things resonate with us differently. Like the more something is overtly competition, the more I'm going to shrink from it

and the more you are going to engage with it. I think that's the definition. To me, that's the definition of are you competitive person? When you're faced with someone that's obviously competitive, how do you respond? And again, with no judgment attached to that, you know? Yeah, I get that. Yeah, I think it's very simply

that I just see it as broader than that. Like I think that even, like we talked about this for years, like when me and you are, like when we're performing, it's just like, are you telling, I refuse to believe that there is not something in your mind because we've talked about it a million times.

Like if we're watching an edit of something that is more like we went out and did something and now we're editing it. Sure. We balance. We want to balance. But we're not trying to achieve that balance just in the name of brand.

It's just like, I'm fully ready, I'm fully willing to admit that it's just like, I want to be able to watch that video and think, I contributed to the comedy in this video. Like I got some good lines in there. And if I watch a video, I'm like, man, I didn't really get to express myself in the way that I would like to.

If I could go back and engineer this video, it would be like a 50-50 thing. Whereas, you know what? Link got a bunch of good one-liners in there in this video. And now, so for me, I'm saying that there is a, what I think is ultimately a healthy competition. It's not like, oh, I want to get more than Link. I want to, I don't want Link to say anything funny

because that would be like- Yeah, I just don't call that competition. So what is it if it's not? Because I would think if you could, I don't view that as comp, first of all, we agree in what we're after. Like we talk about balance a lot. But the way that I think, like I just don't,

I don't think I think about it in terms of competition. I think about it in terms of pulling my weight or contributing. It's personal though. I think ultimately what I'm saying is that it is personally motivated. It isn't like I'm trying to meet, it's not like you're trying to meet an external quota

of like we've decided in some times long past that we are 50-50 contributing to as much as possible. But it's like in the moment when you're watching a video and you're like, I'm trying to get, I want to be an equal partner in this. I think there's an element of competition that's based on you're an advocate for yourself in a non prideful, healthy way.

In other words, it's like, if I were to go in and edit a video without you being there and you were like, man, I said a bunch of funny things and he's edited those things out when I wasn't there, you would be, would you be personally offended? And would you be offended because we're not meeting some standard?

Or would you be personally offended because, hey man, I said some funny things and I want the world to know about those things? Yeah, I would be offended, but I wouldn't be like, because I wanna beat you. To me that- I'm not talking about beating. But see, that's how I think of competition.

I think of this example is not competitive. It's like, I mean, we're both, if we've had times when we've thought I want to be seen as funnier than the other guy, then I think that's probably not a healthy level of competition. My instinct is that I just don't look at it through a lens of competition.

Well, but- Because it doesn't feel healthy to me. No, but what is, but if you're an advocate for yourself and there's a pie with a limited amount of contribution and I'm the other person who's contributing to it, then what is it if it's, I guess I don't think it's a bad thing. I agree with you that it would be bad

if it was just like, we, either of us had a secret, you know, agenda to belittle the other guy. But for me, a lot of times what happens is just us like, like we might do a live show, right? And I'm like, we go out and I'm like, we've done the show that night and I'm like, man, I didn't bring a lot tonight. Yeah. Right?

But I'm also, I'm thinking about it in, the only other person on stage is you, right? And so naturally I'm gonna be like, well, I didn't bring a lot tonight. Link did bring a lot tonight. So when I think tomorrow night, I wanna bring a lot, not to be better than him, but so that it will even out. And so, but in doing that, I am, there's a, you know,

I'm personal, I'm motivated. I know, but you're not trying to beat me. But you, so you're thinking the same thing. I think those same things too. I was like, man, I didn't, the way I think about it is, man, I didn't pull my weight. I didn't, you know, I'm glad that Rhett stepped up or, you know, because then it would,

if he had a bad night too, then that would have sucked. I mean, I think of episodes of GMM that way. It's like, oh man, I just, you know, if I didn't pull my weight, hopefully you pulled more. Or, you know. But really, is that all it is? Because what if every single time you didn't pull your weight, I pulled more weight?

And what if that was the standard? And what if it was like, man, it's kind of, that would bother you, but why would it bother you? Or are you saying it wouldn't bother you? The times when I feel like I don't perform well and you do perform well, like on a given episode or a given thing, does that bother me? Does it bother you in a single instance,

but what if that became the pattern? Would that bother you? And what part of you would it bother? It would absolutely bother me. It absolutely does bother me when it happens, but I feel like I direct all of that towards myself. I don't look at it through a lens of competition. Oh, I direct it towards myself completely.

But the person, the only other person contributing to the mathematical equation by which I judge myself is you. Wherever you're going, you better believe American Express will be right there with you. Heading for adventure? We'll help you breeze through security. Meeting friends a world away?

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I think I got it. It's a kind, it's a- I'm just, I'm trying to get you to, what I'm trying to do is like, okay, we can use a different word if you don't like the word competitive, but like, okay. Well, that's what we're talking about. Let's say, I'm just saying I call that competition.

You're right, and that's my point exactly. We both know- Let's say I come to work. We both know how this works to make it the best it can be. All right, I think I got you. I think I got you. I think I'm about to get you because you can disagree with me.

Okay. But let's say that we go to a- I think you're being competitive now because you're not gonna quit until I agree with you. No, I just want you to acknowledge, I want you to acknowledge- You want to win this argument. No, no, I'm trying to get you to accept something

that I think is true about you. Okay, hit me with it. Okay, we're going on Fallon. We both get suits for Fallon. Okay. When you think about what you're wearing, right? Yes. Okay, let's say. Who looks better?

Let's say we go on Fallon and like we come off of Fallon and then we start looking on the internet at what people are saying and like everyone is talking about how awesome my suit is. They're not saying any, they might even be saying like, what happened with Link's suit? But like Rhett's suit is on fire tonight. Like Link, you already wore that suit.

Does that bother you? Yes. So in the sense of wanting to have a cool suit, but what I'm saying is you don't exist for better or for worse, neither of us exist in this world of entertainment as our own entity. We are tied to the other guy. We don't do solo projects.

I'm not off doing things. When we present ourselves, we present ourselves as a duo. And we both are like, you know, it's like when they come and they start fitting, like we're getting ready to get fitted for one of these things. And they're like, here's all your options, Link, and here's all your options, Rhett.

And I look at your options and I'm like, man, he's got a lot better options than me. You know, well, he's six feet tall, he's not six foot seven, I get it. You know, it's really hard to find things for a tall guy, but damn, I wish they would bring me cool suits too. I think that's competition. I think the net result of that,

now it could get really unhealthy if it was just like, I want more people to like me than like Link. That's not at all what I'm after, but I want people to be like, those suits look good and that may be a shallow thing, but I don't want it to be like, man, I went out there in this frumpy, bad-fitting suit, Link looks really sharp.

I have a problem with that personally, right? I want us both to look good. And so I think that when I'm looking at your rack of suits, there's a competition there. The ultimate thing is if you're focused on that, which my premise is you're just as focused on that as I am, maybe even more when it comes to certain things, right? Then the net result will be like,

we both wanted this to come out right and the net result is both of us wanting that in a healthy way, the net result was as good as, it was the best possible result. You didn't pick a good example because I mean, what happens with suits? Because it's a good example in that it's the most superficial thing that we do.

Right, it's incredibly superficial. It's the most, you're right, because it's like, we have to coordinate whatever we're gonna wear so that it doesn't clash. And we both know that we both wanna look, we want us together as a duo to look as good as possible. What if I was gonna have a little cool light on my shoulder and I was like,

I got this thing on the suit that it lights up and it like a hologram projects my name over my shoulder. You'd be like, well, I want one of those. First of all, you have a- If you thought it was a good idea. I feel like you're more competitive when it comes to this than I am. This is why I think it was a good idea. I feel like you're more competitive when it comes to this than I am. This is why I think it's a bad example.

You know, you have a chip on your shoulder because your shoulder's so tall in the air. You're six foot seven. You have trouble getting clothes that fit you. So I say, you know what? Every single time we do this, the system is you go and you try on, you pick out whatever it is works best for you.

And then I will come in and then you say, okay, this is the best that they've got for me. It's frustrating because, you know, this is all they could find to fit a man as big as me. Right. And then I'm like, okay, then I will work around your choices. But you resent that a little bit.

And I will- Just a little bit. Your argument's floating. No, no, I just, I feel like- I don't know what your point is. I feel like you're trying to say that you don't have any personal pride. And I think, and I'm saying healthy, good personal pride.

And I think you do, and there's nothing wrong with it. And I think that you- I've said that I care. If everybody complimented you on your suit, nobody complimented me on my suit, that would hurt my feelings. Especially if you had to overlook a cool ass suit because I had to wear another suit because I'm tall.

Yes. You'd be like, man, if I had the other suit on right now, if this dumb ass wasn't so tall, I'm just saying that like that. But it's not. And I'm not saying that's, I'm just saying I don't have a problem with that. Like I'm just saying, I don't,

do I think about that in terms of competition? Is he better? I mean, when you get into comparison, is comparison competition? I'm just, yeah, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying, yes, it is. And I think that in the context of any relationship, it's healthy because if-

I think here's the difference. I do think that, and again, this is on a spectrum. It is not you're one way, I'm another way, but like you have a tendency, you have more of a tendency to look at something as a competition, meaning only one person can win, then can't we all just be equal?

Can't we both just be equal? Like, I think that I feel differently about it than you do. I think I just, I instinctively look through a different lens. But what, I guess what I don't understand is what the lens is. Because if you were saying that I don't,

actually you care about that. And again, I do feel judged by that, right? Because what I hear you saying saying that I don't actually, you care about that and again, I do feel judged by that, right? Because what I hear you saying is that, no, you gotta understand, you care about that. You wanna look good or you wanna seem funny. I'm open to having an equally flawed lens. It's just a different one.

And what I'm saying is I think that you want to be, you wanna express yourself and be unique and be perceived in a certain way, just like most healthy, well-adjusted people do. Yes. And I think you want that. I think you want it just as much as I do. Now, but yeah, when we get into like now we're-

I agree with that. I agree with that. We're both like, I am no less flawed than you are. No, I don't think it's flawed. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I think the thing that is frustrating to me- Being competitive is not a flaw, but there's flaws associated with it.

I feel like there's, what I feel you saying, not hear you saying, but feel you saying, is that there is something wrong with admitting that you want some attention. And it would be wrong, so competing for attention, whatever the word might be, right? And what I'm saying is that in an entertainment partnership, there are certain partnerships where they kind of came

to some agreement like Penn and Teller, right? Well, you know. One of them's not gonna talk. One of them's not gonna talk. Could you be the guy that didn't talk? Hell no, and neither could I, but that's not who we are. And what I'm saying is, yes, it could get, if it was unhealthy,

then we wouldn't still be best friends and business partners. Like we have a, we have a unprecedented friendship and business relationship, right? Like even more so than your typical, you know, other comedic duos out there. You got like Key and Peele, like, yeah,

they made the show together and stuff, but like, how often do they see each other? How often are they working together, right? And probably not much at all right now. And I'm not saying that you're not gonna go and do something by yourself, or I'm gonna do something that I'm passionate about, whatever, but I think that, I think the argument that I'm gonna do something that I'm passionate about, whatever. But I think that,

I think the argument that I'm trying to make is that there is something healthy about the friendly, healthy competition between the two of us, and I'm using the term competition, you wanna say self-comparison, self-measuring, whatever the word you wanna use, that ultimately I think is a benefit

and is a positive thing, but I feel you talking about it in a way as if you would be ashamed to admit that that was a dynamic. And I'm just saying, and maybe I'm really ready to admit it just because it does, for me, I'm competitive in many other areas.

And so I just naturally map that onto to this, but I don't see that. But the way I see this different is I'm not trying to win anything. I'm not trying to be better, get more attention. I'm just trying to make sure that I get, that we are getting to that 50-50 when we do things. And it doesn't always happen.

Again, I think I'm defining a competitive spirit as wanting to win, to outdo. It's not- Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about. Then that's not competition. I think you're not using a good example. I think we both know that like we are at our best when we enable each other's best.

Like we are not at our best independently. Right. We are at our best corporately. And so if, you know, us being at our best is like, we're both not talking all the time, you know? It's like, we couldn't hear anything anyone said if we both talked all the time or we both listened all the time, you know,

as just a dumb example. I just don't feel like that's- I guess, I think I just, I have a difference of opinion about that because. I define being a competitive person as wanting to win. And then when you bring, if you were to bring that mentality into this, I mean, it's like, you just, you know, again, it's just a, you like to win and you like to achieve things and that's good,

but it's just a lens that you bring to this. And we have a healthy creative relationship. But we look through different lenses and- I guess I don't understand what your lens is. Cause what I'm saying is like, if we, so like when we're writing buddy system and it's like, okay, we've got this really funny sort of one-off role that we've invented for you.

My natural instinct is to be like, okay, what's the one-off funny role that I'm gonna play? All right, Link gets to do this quirky cave deal. So I'm gonna be the bike or something like that. Like, to me, I'm just saying I'm being vulnerable here, but I'm readily admitting that there is a competitive element to that. Because if I was like, you know what?

Because even if you would be better at being this and this, I still would make the decision to advocate Even if, even if you would be better at being this and this, I still would make the decision to advocate for myself to be this and to you to be that, not just because it makes sense from a Rhett and Link brand, that yeah, that's part of it, but also because, oh, I wanna also have a funny, I wanna be a funny guy. I wanna play the quirky role. And to me, are you saying that that is not true of you?

What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic? Well, for us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show.

With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes galore. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. It's true for me, but the equation is different. Like I think the first thing I think of is like, I wanna contribute. I want to be, you know, I wanna pull my weight and I want to,

I don't know, I guess I don't wanna be seen, it's like I don't wanna be seen as a loser, as like the hanger on. Well, that's- But so again, it's the same thing. It's just a different, it's almost like the negative viewpoint of the same thing. It's just a different, it's almost like the negative viewpoint of the same thing. It's like, if you're saying I wanna win, then I'm saying, oh, I don't wanna lose.

Yeah, that's the only, Right, so I- And I'm just saying that, cause I felt like I was going crazy. Not that you were like gaslighting me, but I felt like I was going crazy because what I hear you saying is, you know, you think those things in the context of what we do, but you know what?

I don't really think those things. But what I hear you saying now is I do think those things, I think about them differently, maybe through a different lens, but in practice, when I look at something like a script, I immediately look at, whoa, there's my name and there's my lines, there's his name and there's his lines.

Let's make sure those are even. Yeah. And I feel like us wanting that is coming from the same place. It's coming from a personal advocate. But I think that that's healthy. I don't think, it can become unhealthy. If it was, I want to dominate, I want to see my name more.

If you write a script. That's a problem. If you write a script, you take that into account. You take balance into account. You're not just, you're not trying to make, you're not trying to make just you look good if you write something. And if I edit something, I'm not just trying to make me look good.

I'm trying to make us look good. Yes, and often- And so we defer. And often I might actually bias something towards you having a little bit more. You know what I'm saying? Like, because if it's a certain kind of thing that I'm writing and I'm spending more time on it,

well, I don't wanna be the asshole who like is also, well, I'm in control of this at this stage. Yeah. And so I'm going to like write more for myself. Like I actually, I think I do the opposite, but I'm just saying the element, the fire, the spark of being your own advocate and how that takes place in the context of our friendship, in the context of our,

it's mostly the context of our creative partnership because we are, our whole business is based on people finding us likable and enjoyable and funny and wanting to sit around and listen to us talk. I don't, and I, I am, I'm just trying to process honestly, and I do think that like, you know, I don't try to make you look like a jerk

in these conversations. I think you- Well, you do sometimes, but I know you're not trying to. I know that, I know you feel like a jerk in these conversations. I think you- Well, you do sometimes, but I know you're not trying to. I know you feel like that happens. Honestly, I just, I feel like I operated not out of a desire to win, but out of a desire not to fail. It's just a different motivation.

I think there's a difference. It's a different motivation. I think there's a difference. It's a different motivation. And so it doesn't feel like. But I'm just saying, I think that comes from the same place. I think it comes from the same place in a person wanting to have some, you got some personal pride.

I think it, okay, yeah. Because there are some people who aren't, what I'm getting at is there are a lot of people who are not like that. Yeah, there's pride. I don't want to look, like I said, I don't want to look stupid, I don't want to look like I lose, I don't want to look like I'm not pulling my weight. I don't want to be seen as a sidekick.

And also, and this is why I use the term competition, because there is an intensity to it, right? In the midst of a performance, in the midst of us going out and doing, like, we don't do this a whole lot anymore because we don't go out, but like when we were like shooting, you know, the backup plan where it's like, all right, we're gonna go into this situation,

we're gonna interact with this person or commercial kings, whatever. We both are like, I'm gonna try to be funny. I'm, and it's like, whoa, if you ramp up and it's like, man, he's really knocking it out of the park right now. I'm like, I gotta get up to that place. I gotta get up to that place. To me, the net result of that is, well,

it's twice as funny as it would have been. But there's a lot of people who's like, man, he's really popping off right now. And he's really being funny who would shrink down. And what I'm saying is, and ultimately it may sound, this is a backwards way to get to it. I'm trying to compliment you. And I'm just trying to get you to accept the compliment.

Is that I think that you are an equal advocate for yourself to the degree that I am, but that you have a little bit of a problem with accepting that. You don't wanna accept that you're an advocate for yourself to a large degree. I'm not trying to diagnose you. I'm just saying that like,

my perception of interacting with you is that you want it just as much as I do. You want whatever it is we're trying to get as much as I do. And that's a good thing. And if you didn't, then we wouldn't be here. And so, but there's a part of me that's like, you don't wanna be perceived as a guy who really wants it. I'll let him be the one that seems like he really wants it.

I'm not, well, first of all, I'm not making a play on this podcast to be perceived in a certain way. Yeah. I've never thought, so that's not what's happening. That like, you know, it's, that dynamic of like what happens, what, I don't know. That's another conversation for what happens

on this podcast sometimes where it's like, I feel like we both want the same things, but we don't have the exact same drive. It's not the same chemical makeup because we're different people. But you're just as driven as me. That's the only thing I'm saying. I am driven, but I don't, you know,

if we're making it, you've made it very personal. And I think it complicates it because if you go back to like just the simple things like, what kind of sports do you like? I think we can easily agree that you enjoy things that are competitive, like cardboard competitive much more than me. Yeah, and I think this gets at the root of a big,

I think I have an issue. And then you funnel that back into. Well, no, I think I have an issue with, there's so many people who are like, I don't like sports because I'm not competitive. But then I'm like, well, look what you do for a living. Like I have somebody I know who is a musician and is very committed to their art

and wants to be good at it and is incredibly driven. But it's like, I don't really like sports. I don't get it. It seems like I just, I'm not competitive. I'm not into competitive things. I'm like, well, he sure as hell. But you know that I don't judge sports. So just lose that for a second.

Like I don't look down on anybody who screams at a screen about sports. I don't judge sports. So just lose that for a second. Like I don't look down on anybody who screams at a screen about sports. I don't. I guess what I'm saying is that I think more people than, and I'm not, and again, this can come across like I'm trying to, and again, I understand. Yes, I do think there is a dynamic sometimes where we get into a conversation like this

and I'm being what I perceive as being vulnerable, which is like, I'm kind of pulling back the curtain on my mind and it's like, oh, it's kind of a, things get a little dark in there sometimes. And I perceive in those moments, you trying to be like distance yourself from that and be like, well, that's not, I'm not like that. I mean, you're like that, but I'm not like that.

And I guess I'm selfishly trying to say, well, not just to make myself feel better, but to make myself feel sane, it's difficult for me to interpret your actions over the course of our lifetime through the lens of you not being competitive in the broadest sense. I know you're not competitive when it comes to sports

and even most games, but I'm saying, I think you're competitive when it comes to life. And I think that most people, even the most humble among us who want to do something meaningful and impactful in the world. In fact, the primary motivation of most people on earth is to be important, you know? And I think that there's nothing wrong with that.

It's basically deeply built into our DNA. And I'm just saying, I'm saying, yes, it can get in my way sometimes, but yes, I want to be important. And I'm just saying that, I think you also want to be important, but I think- I do wanna be important. I think that,

I think you have more confidence than me. I think you have confidence that you have more more confidence than me. I think you have confidence that you have more to offer than me. So I think, and I think that's a flaw that I have because maybe that's not true. Maybe we have equal things to offer. Maybe everybody has something to offer and it's not, you know, if you, you know,

that's why comparison is a trap. But like, to me, I do think it's two sides to the same coin of it's like, it's really complicated because it's, you know, I do find myself with comparison, I have a, it's a negative experience. For you, it might be more of a frustrating experience of, you know, I can look better in this suit. It's like, can I look better in this suit?

I mean, I'm not as confident as people might think I am. I don't know, I just think we're a little bit different in that way. As a side note, maybe I do a really bad job of responding to you being vulnerable about something and then it, because if you're asking, just like, oh yeah, if I can't say, I feel exactly the same way you do when you're asking just like, oh yeah, I'm this, if I can't say I feel exactly the same way you do when you're being vulnerable,

if that just immediately is judgment, it's like, that's a side note. A couple of episodes ago, I said something like, And I remember this. I was saying something about us being empathetic and I was basically making the statement like, we're both empathetic, we're empathetic about different things or whatever, but we're both empathetic, we're empathetic

about different things or whatever, but we're both really empathetic people. And if you know what we're talking about in that conversation, just so you know, listener, Kiko actually cut out one statement that I made where I was like, well, I don't know about that. Because yeah, it was at least a confusing thing to say. And it sounded like you were saying,

well, I know that you're not as empathetic as me is what it sounded like you were saying. You know what? And I'm sorry for saying that for the record because- Okay, I accept your apology. I think I thought I knew what you were gonna say and then what you said about empathy was different, but in my mind, I was already, I am very sensitive.

I think you're getting at something with me that's like, I'm sensitive to, I don't know, there's something about if you are vulnerable about something or if you say something about yourself and then you say, but you're the same way, you know, it's like, well, I don't know if I'm, you know, like I try, I know that I'm very flawed. I know that you're very flawed.

And you know the same thing about me. And I do know that there's something about this forum that it's harder for people to see that about you. No, I'm not being clear. Not that you're more flawed, but that we both got equally good hearts, but they're different. Yeah. And I also wasn't trying to point out-

I just have a general, I think I have a knee jerk response to being lumped in to like, okay, my flaws are your flaws. Like if you say- But I'm not saying it's a flaw. I'm saying it can be. I'm just explaining why I said something that I'm not saying it's a flaw, I'm saying it can be. I'm just explaining why I said something that I'm sorry for, that like,

if I implied that you weren't ever empathetic or I remember the time I was like, that's not what I meant to say. And then I never went back to it and it was difficult to bring it up, so I never did. But I thought you were gonna say something else. And all I really heard was, I have this issue, but you have it too.

And I'm like, well, it's like when you say, everybody who's in entertainment is a narcissist. And then you say, so then it's like, well, there's a little bit of narcissism in me, there's a little bit of narcissism in you. And I'm like, well. there's a little bit of narcissism in me, there's a little bit of narcissism in you. And I'm like, well. And you're uncomfortable with that. And I get, I have a negative response to that.

And I haven't fully explored it, but I'm like, it's just one thing for somebody to be vulnerable about themselves. But then if you lump me in, it's like. Well, and I appreciate that. Because I just know that we're both flawed in our own ways, but they're not all the same exact ways. And I'm not saying you're a narcissist and I'm not,

I'm just saying that the general lumping in thing gets a knee jerk reaction. I appreciate that. And when you said that you're just as empathetic as me, I had a knee jerk reaction, I said something that I regret. But it's, and I appreciate that. But I think what, I guess what I'm saying is, it's also, this isn't,

I wouldn't do this with anybody else, right? I mean, maybe with my wife, you know, but I guess what I'm saying is, a lot of these things are based on how well I know you. So, and so, so in one sense, I could hear you saying, you don't know me as well as you think you do. I think you're, that's not what I'm, what I'm saying is you're a competitive person.

Well, you're more competitive than me. And then you see the way that I act and you interpret my motives as being rooted in competition and I'm like, I don't know if it's that simple. Again, if you go back to the- Right. It's an interesting question and I'm really trying to answer it

and I'm not trying to do it to make you seem, make me seem- Right, I get that but there's one side of it, which is like, I have a fundamental difference of opinion about what the word competition means, which I'm trying to get beyond that. To what I think is the more important root, which I think as I sense, like I said,

and it's interesting, it's pretty ironic, right? Because you're very open and you're very vulnerable in general, but sometimes I think it's like, what I'm looking for is this, there's some validation that I'm looking for or just an acknowledgement that like, yeah, yeah, I deal with that too. That your response to it is, well, not so fast

in the interpretation that I get and then I get worried that the audience gets is, oh, so Link doesn't have that struggle or it's so different so as to be a completely different thing. Because I guess what I'm getting at is it's like, okay, with what we talked about today, if you aren't advocating for yourself,

and I'm not saying to exclude advocating for me or exclude advocating for the Rhett and Link brand or whatever it is. Yeah, if- Then I have misinterpreted, I don't know where it's coming from. And I'm just saying, I feel like I know you well enough to know that like,

yeah, he wants to be important just like I want to be important, but that doesn't make you a bad person because if you didn't want that, like I said, everyone wants that. Even people who are, you know, even people who struggle from agoraphobia and won't leave the house, right?

Like they still want to be important they still want to be important. And everybody wants to make some kind of impact. They may have a lot of things that are getting in the way of that, but I don't think that's the case with you. I think that you make a huge impact. So, and I don't think that there's any, like at no time in the history of our friendship

or partnership have I thought that we've started getting to a place where it's just like, oh, this is really imbalanced, right? Like I've always thought that like we do a really good job. But that's because we do that for, we defer to each other. And we, here's the- But it's more than just deferring

because we both deferred then neither one of us would be funny. You're taking a stance that then it, you're setting me up to make you look like an asshole and then you're being sensitive to it because you're saying, listen, we're both really competitive. We both really care about looking good,

looking just as good as the other person. Not beating the other person, but looking just as good as the other person. I'm the other person, but looking just as good as the other person. I'm like, we both need to care about both of us together as a unit looking the best we can look. And that means both of us taking a backseat at certain points. And I know you agree with that,

but you're just asserting that- I'm just talking about the one aspect of that, because I agree with all that. Again, I- Is just being the personal advocate for yourself. And I still feel you having some shame around that. There feels like there's shame around being an advocate for yourself.

And only thing I'm saying is that like, it could be shameful. Yeah, because I'm saying, but I don't think that it is. I think we need to be an advocate for us. I completely agree. And I know you agree because in practice, that's what we do.

But I think, but I'm just, don't you have a proclivity to view it more of a, in a more competitive way than I do between the two of us? I feel that. Like, let me throw out- I'm not trying to say that, I'm not trying to get you to admit that you're equally as competitive in this,

even in this realm. The only thing that I'm trying to get you to admit is that you want to pull your weight to the same degree that I want to pull my weight. Yes. And in the context of a Rhett and Link, that means pulling the same amount of weight as Rhett, just like in the context for me,

it's pulling the same amount of weight as Link. There's a dynamic that's different than just an athlete who's just out there doing his thing, competing against himself or competing against a bunch of other people. It's a duo. And there's a dynamic to that, that I think in a lot of ways we've really figured out,

right, because most duos don't last. But it's not, I don't know, I just find myself not thinking that like, I'm ashamed that I'm competitive. I don't feel like it gets us as far as working together. But I don't know, maybe that's just a confidence thing. as far as working together. But I don't know, maybe that's just a confidence thing. That's why I brought that up. Like I think of it, here's an example.

I don't know if you remember, well, you have to remember some of this. I don't know why this popped into my head. When we were doing those song biscuits, okay? So we would do a podcast with somebody and in this particular time, it was Nice Peter. Okay. And we did a podcast and then we sat down

and we did a song biscuit where we write a song together and we just record the thing for an hour and try to within an hour write and then perform the song based on suggestions from Twitter. And so we started writing this song with Nice Peter and like, you know, I mean, it's, I'm immediately aware that like, okay, I'm the guy on the keyboard who's gonna write down

what everybody comes up with because I don't play- In keyboard you mean laptop, not keyboard the instrument. Which means in the context of- I'm the guy on the laptop keyboard because I can't play a keyboard or a guitar. Right. Okay, so I'm not as much of a contributor here. I gotta find my lane.

You got this other guy, Pete is like very talented, very quick on his feet. We're writing a song together, everybody's got their own verse, we're writing this thing. It was very difficult for me because it's like, it's not just you and me and like we can work together and you know. I think this is a good example.

I think, you know, I remember like all of these comparisons going through my head, you know. You used the term comparisons. Yeah, because I knew that I couldn't win. So it's not a competition. Okay, okay. See, that's why- I will use your-

That's why I'm not talking- I'll use your terminology. But this is a great example because- Yeah, that's the different point of view between how a competitive lens views that situation. I guess I'm just saying, I'm using the term comparative lens. Because I think you wanted to have the best verse,

you wanted to do the best you could do. And you wanted the best verse, and I wanted the best verse, and Pete wanted the best verse, and in my mind, what that contributes to is the best song. Right? Right. I specifically remember being self-conscious about the fact that he's so much better of a guitar player best song, right? Right. I specifically remember being self-conscious about the fact that he's so much better

of a guitar player than me, right? Yeah. And so, and again, is that competitive? I think that's competitive. I think it's like, man, I'm self-conscious because he's such a good guitar player. So you're gonna step up and you're gonna win. And I'm like, I gotta find my lane because I'm gonna lose.

And I think that's the same thing. And that's what I'm saying is different. Okay, and I just think that, yeah, I gotta find my lane. And then I'm like, you know what? And what I did in that situation is I played rhythm and he played like lead, right? Because yeah, I can't compete with him. I'm not gonna be better at the guitar than him,

but what can I do to contribute? Because I do have a guitar and I want to keep up with him. So it wasn't like, let's beat Pete. It was more like, I think I'm thinking the same thing. What's my lane in this situation? One of them is writing as good of a verse as I can so that people will be like, Rhett had the best verse,

because that would be unhealthy. But if people will be like, man, Pete and Link were really funny and Rhett wasn't, like I would have a problem with that. Yeah. And I feel like if I didn't have a problem with that, I would be a shitty entertainer. Yeah, and I just felt like, you know,

in that instance, like, okay, I can't play to my strengths here. And it was like, and I remember there was a point where like, unlike how we would usually do it, that we would be writing the verses very collaboratively. I remember there was a point where every, like, we sketched out the verses, then everybody went, the two of you went and like,

you were working on your own verse. Cause I think Pete was like, I need, I can't remember how it happened, but it was just like, oh, this became a, every man for himself writing their own thing and coming up with how they're gonna do it. And I was like, I hate this.

You know, this is not how I want this to go. And it was just because I felt like. But you didn't, but this is not how I want this to go. And it was just because I felt like- But you didn't, but this is the difference between you and someone who I would say is not competitive, is that you didn't implode and not do a good verse. You were like, damn it, I gotta write a good verse. The same thing that I think I was thinking. No, I was thinking, why aren't all three of us

writing all three of these verses together? But that's, to me, that, yeah, that's a separate concern. But once given- A competitive person says, this is my thing, I'm gonna make it as good as possible, I'll be back. And that's what happened.

It's like, and I never had the instinct, hey guys, let me go over here on my own and make my thing as good as it can be. Cause I know you guys are gonna do that. But see, my observation of you as a person is that anytime you have to do something, you fully commit to it and make it as good as it can be. Yeah.

So I guess what I'm saying is, is that in my mind, there are plenty of people in the world who given the opportunity to do something in the context of someone else doing the same thing, back away and say, I don't wanna be a part of this, but like you don't- Well, I couldn't do that. Yeah, but I'm saying you don't,

there's nothing in the final product, there's nothing in what you say, all your actions and all your outward emotions communicate to me that you're trying at least as hard as I am. And so maybe I'm interpreting that wrong, but to me, it's just like, oh, he wants this too, to the same degree that I do.

And that's a good thing. Like at no point during any of this whole conversation, two hour conversation, have I been trying to say, just admit you're bad like me, which again, I feel like that's what, I hear you saying, you want me to admit I'm bad like you because you keep using the word flaws and stuff. I'm not actually in this instance, I'm very flawed,

but in this instance, I'm not, I'm actually trying to get to a place where, and this is to unpack a whole different layer, like the whole issue of being a personal advocate and having some pride, coming from an evangelical Christian background, that's something that I've had to come to grips with is being okay.

My wife is the same way, especially as a woman coming up in the evangelical environment. Being an advocate for yourself felt dirty and it felt like you were being sinful and you were being prideful in the bad way. And that's a huge part of our psyche and a huge part of our background

and sort of our foundational philosophy is that the moment you become an advocate for yourself and you realize, you know, I actually do want to be funny or I do want to seem important. That's all bad all the time. And I think over the past few years, I'm kind of coming to the realization that, you know what? Being an advocate for yourself is actually a healthy thing

when it's funneled into the right thing and it doesn't go overboard and it doesn't happen at the expense of other people. And what I hear you saying is that I want it to contribute to the whole and so do I. I feel like me focusing on me being the best Rhett I can be makes the best Rhett and Link we can be. And I think what I'm looking for is you to be like,

yeah, I feel the same way, just so I don't feel crazy. I feel like I do want to be the best I can be, but I think that if we only focus on that, then we will never be the best we can be because we have to also focus on like when being a champion for when it's the other guy's time to shine. And I completely agree with that. The only thing I'm saying is that the portion

of that equation, which is you being your own personal advocate is something that I feel like I'm saying, yes, that's a part of who I am. And I can say it and I don't even have to qualify it with the fact that yes, and it makes it better as a whole. To just say that in life and in the context of our partnership, I'm trying to be the best that I can be. And yes, it is partly motivated by wanting

to be personally meaningful and important and have an impact. The worst thing that can happen to a person is to get to a place where they feel like they have no impact. I want to be successful. I want to be seen as talented. I want to get compliments on my suit.

I want all of these things, you know? And I don't think it's healthy to want it at your expense. And I don't think you's healthy to want it at your expense. And I don't think you're saying that. Agreed. But we have a different makeup. And I think that confidence is a component of it. I think when I played soccer, I hated every minute of it

because I never believed that I could score. Yeah. I never that I could score. Yeah. I never believed I could score. The entire game was trying to not screw up. I get it. But I don't think that was your mentality when you played. You're right. I wanna be the, I can score.

I was trying to win, you're right. I will win. Yeah. And I'll be like, I don't want to lose And I'll be like, I don't want to lose. It's just like, I don't want to fail. I think that's a significant difference. And I think, I guess what I'm saying is- To me that defines-

You're riding in a slightly- If you're a competitive person. You're riding in a slightly different vehicle, right? But the gas, the juice is the same. You may be taking a different road, but I'm just saying that that juice that fuels it of you don't wanna fail, I wanna win, I'm just saying it's coming from the same place.

By the way, I don't wanna say that and I don't want to show that and I don't want to show that. Like, I don't want to say, hey man, can you help me write the melody for my verse? Because I feel like yours is a whole lot better than mine. And Pete's is better than both of ours, but at least ours can be equal. Like, I'm never gonna say that

because that's being more of a loser. You know, it's like, yeah. And I'm just saying that I agree and I. So I think you're saying, you think I'm as competitive as you when like, really I'm just, you know, I don't wanna be the lame duck at the game. Well, maybe.

Like this game sucks, I don't. You don't want to lose as much as I want to win. I guess what I'm saying is that I see a fire in a very motivated, focused person. And what I hear when you say that, and also when other people say it is this like, I'm not really passionate. You know what I'm saying?

Like I'm not as passionate as you, but I don't believe that about you or these other people that I'm saying? I'm not as passionate as you, but I don't believe that about you or these other people that I'm thinking about. Like, no, you might be more passionate than me actually, but you just don't want to admit it for some reason. Like you don't want to admit that you want something as readily as I am willing to admit that I want something. And I'm just saying that I think you want it just as bad

as I do, but you may say, well, I want it in a different way. I don't want to lose. And so when I think about us going out and creating something, my preoccupation is I don't want this to suck and us to be embarrassed. And you're thinking, I want this to be awesome. So people will think we're great. And I'm willing to admit that that could be

a fundamental difference between the two of us and probably a strength in some way. But I guess what I'm just saying is the want, the desire, like you don't wake up in the morning not wanting something. You know what I'm saying? Like my experience with you in the world is that you're very motivated. It may be a slightly different flavor of motivation,

but it's not like, well, you know, in this partnership, one of them is really motivated and the other one is not. It's like, no, that's not, it has never been the sense. Well, I don't wanna be contrary. You just, this is a strange time, right? And I do think, so I think what you're- I just want you to say, yeah, man. I think what you're saying is true,

but I also think that I have struggled with motivation the most I've ever struggled in quarantine. Like, and I know you have too, cause we've talked about it. Right, cause yeah. So I'm like very in quarantine. And I know you have too, cause we've talked about it. Right. So I'm like very in this local moment of like- But people who struggle with motivation are motivated. It's just like my pastor used to say,

there's this thing that, back when I was a Christian and you would wonder if you were saved. It was like, I don't know if I really prayed the sinner's prayer that last time. You know, I prayed it several times. I got saved multiple times and rededicated my life and all the things that you do in that environment.

And my wife struggled with the same thing. And, you know, my pastor told me one time, he was like, listen, people who are worried about their salvation, they're not the ones. If you're worried about whether or not you're saved or not, you're saved. You know what I'm saying? So what I'm saying is that-

So if I'm worried about not being motivated. If you're sitting around thinking about not being motivated, well, the person who isn't sitting around thinking about being motivated, they're the ones who not being motivated. If you're sitting around thinking about not being motivated, well, the person who isn't sitting around thinking about being motivated, they're the ones who aren't motivated. You know what I mean? You are motivated. You know what?

You frustrated yourself. Yes. Because you don't have something to focus on right now, right, because we don't have a routine and we're not coming into the office every day. I feel the same way, but that is just evidence of motivation. I'm just saying you're motivated.

Okay, so all right. All right, I'm competitive, man. I'm just as competitive as you. Yes! I'm one! It took two hours and 13 minutes. No, you don't have to say you're competitive. That's not the word you want to use.

Let's just use the term motivated. You are just as motivated as me. Oh gosh. We have not, neither one of us have moved an inch. No, I think so. I think we both have. Who? I think we both have. I think that-

I think we've learned a lot. I think that we- I don't I think we've learned a lot. I think that we- I think that we- I don't know that we've impacted each other. I think we acknowledge the fundamental difference with the way that we see competition. There's a fundamental difference. I wanna win, you don't wanna lose.

And that is a meaningful difference. But what I hope we have established is it's not that like, I wanna be Mr. Fantastic and you're like, I just want Rhett and Link to be the best that they can be. I think we both wanna be Mr. Fantastic, but we also want Rhett and Link to be Mr's Fantastic. And I think that that motivation is one of the reasons

that we have against all common sense worked as hard as we have worked for as long as we have done it. I think, oh God. I think if we were both, nevermind, I'm not gonna say it. Cause I don't know if it's, I don't, I don't know, it's like, we're different people. Like, yeah, I know you know that we're different people, but it's like, we're more different, I don't know.

There's other factors and we're just talking about competitive spirit and like how we view that type of thing. But I think we've stripped away too much of who we are and trying to isolate this thing. And we're maybe drawing too many conclusions. That's actually how I feel about it. I wonder how people listening to this are gonna process it.

Well, a lot of people are like, well, stop by now. It's like, I'm not gonna listen to these guys psychoanalyze each other. That's why when this is over, we'll have an argument about making this a two part. Nah, we can't do that. I think we can put a thing at the beginning that says, listen, something happened in this episode

and we went from talking about games and then- That's just ear biscuits, man. Then we don't have to record one for next week. And this was a really good, I want people to listen to the second half of this conversation. So that's why we're gonna have an argument about should this be, and this won't be in it

cause we'll cut this out that way they won't know who won because as you know, I'm very competitive and. Yeah, exactly. See, you wanna advocate for your position just as much as me and you say that you don't. I don't want people to not listen to this conversation. So I want it to be front and center and it should be its own podcast.

I think it's an important conversation. It shouldn't be buried after talking about board games and movies for an hour. It's too important of a conversation. That first episode is not gonna be as good as it could be. It's as good as last week's episode. You know me, I'm not competitive, so I'm totally willing to do what you're asking.

I mean, I'm fine with this episode competing with last week're asking. I mean, I'm fine with this episode competing with last week's episode. You know, it's like, you did a great job on the last episode. I sucked. I had nothing to bring to the table. See, these are the things that I think about. I'm very comfortable.

And is that, I don't think that's competition. I'm super comfortable talking about all this. And you're getting there. What are you talking about? I'm just joking, man. I don't get the joke. Okay, this is the second part of a two-part episode that we have to go back.

And so that means that, this is gonna be complicated because I have a rec but my rec is gonna be inserted at the end of this episode or the end of the previous episode? This episode. So you get two recs in a row. That's what that's gonna, I'm joking.

It just came out of my nose. I'm joking, I'm joking. So you want me to give my rec at the end of this full long episode, which actually I think- I don't wanna give you a rec at all unless it's appropriate. No, actually I think it is appropriate because-

Okay, good. And this is a- The last episode, part one of this did not have a rec because it just continued and we can put an addendum on it. Okay, I was kind of thinking you should give you a rec that you were gonna give, but you can save the rec that you were gonna give. It actually, I think it influenced

the nature of this conversation, is a book that I'm in the middle of reading, which is like almost 100 years old and has a sort of a title that's a turnoff. And you've heard of it before. It's Dale Carnegie's "'How to Win Friends and Influence People." And this is a classic. I've heard of it before. It's Dale Carnegie's, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

And this is a classic. I would never read that book based on the title. Well, it's been recommended by so many people that I respect and I was like, if one more person. How to Buy Friends and Manipulate People. Nope, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And by the way, it was recommended during staff training for Campus Crusade, but apparently you didn't take that recommendation

at that point, neither did I. It's an old school book. I recommend just doing the audio book because of the nature of the language is the kind of thing you probably get lost in the reading. But it's this just essentially how to be a person. And just like things, like when you're actually trying to interact in the world

and do the things that you want to do and interact with people, there are just some very simple, and again, I'm like a third or a half of the way through this, but just like some things that I was like, everything so far is common sense, but you're kind of like, yeah, I don't know why I don't operate in this way more.

Like if you can praise somebody, it's always gonna be better than criticizing somebody. Just simple things like that, that were very helpful in thinking about just being a boss, you know, being a manager of people, being a friend and just being a person who moves about the world. So again, I can't speak for the second half of the book.

It may get really un-PC or something, probably, I mean, it's a hundred years old. They probably updated it since then. I don't, I have no reason to believe that it would be. I'm just- Second half of the book is racist. It may get really racist in the second half. No, I don't think it is because lots of people still recommend it.

How to Win Friends and Influence People. Just read it now. It's like seven and a half hour audio book. Just listen to it. You can listen to it on 1.5 speed probably. I'm doing like 1.2 speed, 1.25 I think. It's just about as fast as I like to get. Yeah, I can do like 1.3.

But the reason I'm- That's a joke. The reason that I am saying it relates is because he talks about the fundamental drive of all people is the desire to be important. And he's like, it's like, remember people's names and say them to them. Be genuinely interested in people because you being,

and again, this can seem like manipulation, but when you're a person who like smiles at people, which I don't smile a lot, it's like, I should be smiling more. I should be saying people's names to them. Yes, you can use some of these things to manipulate people and get what you want, but he's very clear that this is not about that.

This is about being a good human to other humans. And being a good human means being interested in genuinely curious about people. But that whole thing about everybody wants to be important, it's just like, it just hit me hard. I was just like, yeah, this, you can pretty much look at everybody's life and everybody's actions from people who are doing good in the world

to people who are doing bad in the world. And it feels like a common denominator is people want to be important. And you can take that and it can become a bad thing, but I do think that it's just intrinsic to everybody. So to deny it, I'm not saying you're denying it. I'm not denying it. I'm not saying you're denying it.

I'm not denying it. I want to be important. I felt that you were denying it. And what I felt, and I was wrong, so I'll admit this, is I felt like you were saying, well, you know, you want to be important, but I just want to be, and I want us to be great. And so, yeah, I know that that's not what you're saying.

That's what I heard, that's what I felt, and I didn't want people, you know, I was worried, you know, because I want to be important. I don't want to seem like an asshole. So I didn't want people to interpret that. But that's why it works out as a good rec because it kind of is based on that. And when you accept that about people,

you start realizing that like, oh, every time you're dealing with somebody, understanding that they want to be important and they actually find what they're doing. You can use, it sounds like you could use that knowledge in service of them and not just yourself. Yeah, yeah, if you're looking to motivate somebody, it's not you telling them what you want from them,

but it's finding out what they want and figuring out if there's a way to funnel what they want into what the group wants, you know, and what you want as a company or what you want in a relationship, not to manipulate, but just to, you know, and what you want as a company or what you want in a relationship. Not to manipulate, but just to, you know, make things better for everybody. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie,

published first in 1936. Second half is racist, maybe. No, we've not read that. Probably not. Probably not. Yeah. Hopefully not. Yeah. Ah, wow, okay. Yeah. Hopefully not. Yeah. Wow, okay. Use hashtag Ear Biscuits. Let us know what you think and it's not about-

Let me know where I went wrong. It's not about taking sides. It's about continuing the conversation. So hashtag Ear Biscuits. Let's keep this conversation going, but not in a comparison taking sides kind of way, but like in a, hey, let's all understand ourselves and humanity, psychology a little bit more.

We'll talk at you next week. We're still good. We're still good. We're still good. We're good, we're great. I mean, it does feel a little weird, but we're still good. We're still good. We're still good. We're great, we're great. I mean, it does feel a little weird, but we're still good. And I'm glad we did it. Talk at you next week.

All right.