Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - 276: Link's Spiritual Deconstruction - One Year Later | Ear Biscuits Ep.276

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

Guilt, loss, hardships. Link describes 3 specific experiences in the past year since his spiritual deconstruction and how he faced these trials of faith now that he has left the Evangelical church in this episode of Ear Biscuits. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I'm Rhett. And I'm Link. This week at the round table of dim lighting, it's my turn to share more about my spiritual journey, it being the one year anniversary or give or take

of each of us sharing about our spiritual journeys from, yeah, up into being in our early 40s. I'm about to hit mid 40s, man. Yeah, you are. I think when you hit 44, that's mid. Let's just call it 45. Of course, I assume you listened to Rhett's last week. If you didn't, I encourage you to do that.

So last week, again, I appreciate you opening up and processing how things are going for you. At the point of recording this, that one's not even out yet. So I mean, I'm anticipating lots of response and conversation, so thanks for being a part of that using hashtag Ear Biscuits. Yeah, so now it's my turn to be on the hot seat. Definitely feeling nerves associated with this

because I mean, like you said last week, unlike most podcasts, we put a lot more forethought into this. I mean, this is a rewarding process. It's been, I mean, it's been challenging for me to pull together what I wanted to say. We've talked about it some, I've had conversations with Christy as well.

So if you wanna go to some emotional places and explore my spiritual journey as it stands over this past year, buckle up. But if you just wanna hear me talk about my cat, well, I'll just do that next week. So you can just wait until next week. But I'll warn you, if you're a cat lover, you might not wanna listen to that one either.

I don't know, I don't know, we'll see. Well, no, I'm sure they will. But that one, you know, it'll get a little lighter, but we'll see where this one goes. Well, and before you get started, you know, I think it's significant that we get sort of keyed up before we talk about these things. And I think we're not gonna spend any time

really talking about that or exploring that, but I do think that it is in the least or in part related to just how big of a part of our lives all of this stuff was and how significant it was. And I think if you're a Christian or a former Christian or somewhere in between, you can probably relate to that, this being the most important thing in your life. And so when you get really open and vulnerable about it,

it can stir some things in ways that talking about your cat might not. I wouldn't call it my cat, but okay. We'll wait until next week for that. But yeah, I've journaled down the things that I wanna share and so let's just get into it. Like I said, a year ago or so, I shared my story of spiritual deconstruction

from an evangelical Christian to a hopeful agnostic is what I called it at the time. I don't really refer to that label a lot, but I still think that applies. And that story covered my entire life. There were snapshots from age 10 and on, right? But today I'm only covering the last year. So it's a different thing.

I mean, it's been a crazy year and it's been a tough one for everybody on this planet, of course, to varying degrees, but it's been a crazy year. And over this past year, I was blindsided by a number of difficult challenges that I would have as an evangelical Christian have labeled as test of faith. Meaning something happens in your life and your response to it reveals what you truly

and deeply believe. I didn't think of the things that I'm gonna share today in that way as they were happening. And I think that's kind of part of what I wanna share and how I did process those things. But in kind of a compare and contrast, I realized that's how my former self would see the things I went through as test of faith.

would see the things I went through as test of faith. To put it even more specifically, in the past as a Christian, I shuddered at the thought of facing suffering, facing fear and facing loss without the peace that accompanied a very specific belief about Jesus. I think that's something that a lot of people can relate to.

I know for me, when you think about the potential of not having God in your life in the same way or not having that relationship with Jesus in the way that you did in the past, you're like, even in transition, I know you talked to me a lot about this, as we were sort of transitioning, there was this fear of like,

is something horrible gonna happen and I won't be able to make it through? Because I've always had this idea that you retreat into sort of you have refuge in the Lord, you know, when you're going through those things. And that is what we, that was our practice and that was our experience. And that is where we found a source of strength

in our relationships with Christ. So, you know, having that be a defining aspect of any test I faced in my life. Yeah, I shuddered at the thought of that being gone. Yet here I was over this past year, facing suffering, facing fear, facing loss after having moved on from that faith. And that's a fear that keeps a lot of people

from walking away, frankly. So I just wanna share three experiences from this past year. But before I do that, I just wanna go ahead and say that I'm in a really good place right now spiritually. I don't look back on my former life I'm in a really good place right now spiritually. I don't look back on my former life as an evangelical and wish that I was still there. I think if you go back and listen to my story,

there's lots of things that I appreciate and that I value from that experience. It's by no means all negative. And I already talked about that, but as I go through these things, I just kinda wanna head off at the past that like, oh, I feel sorry for you. And I don't wanna elicit pity

because that's not my point at all. I'm gonna be very honest about how I process these things and the emotional component and all of that. But I think it's the fact that I found a way forward that alleviated those fears that my former self had. So yeah, I don't look back and wish I was there. I'm happy. that alleviated those fears that my former self had. So yeah, I don't look back and wish I was there. I'm happy. But I am also restless.

I don't know if that's exactly the right word because I mean it in only a good way. But I'm restless in the sense that I'd like to think that my spirit or whatever you wanna call it within myself is staying open to where I'm headed, even though that ultimate destination is unknown to me. But I'm doing my best to be honest with myself and honest with those that love me

and honest right now with you listening. And I feel hopeful and I'm at peace with my direction. And today is another day on that journey for me. And a big component of that is it being an active spiritual journey that I for me. And a big component of that is it being an active spiritual journey that I'm on. And I'm grateful to be doing this particular podcast to kind of put another stake in the ground to say,

a year later, this is how I'm processing it. And this is where I'm at, but it's, I mean, I'm sure this will get heavy, but it's overall, I just wanted to, you know, I wanna bookend it with this message that is a positive message for me that I'm in a good place. And I'm glad you're saying that because, you know, I think that, you know, as you contrast the way that we approach these kinds of things, right you contrast the way that we approach

these kinds of things, right? And the way that we approach our original stories and the way I'm sure we're gonna approach the sort of the follow-up is you kind of explore things through your personal experience and story. And you're also, you're a verbal processor. Yeah. You're, you also, you're a verbal processor. Yeah. You're, you're also, you know,

you aren't quite as sure yourself. And that's, I mean, I don't, I think that that is a, that's a positive thing for you, ultimately. I can be a little too confident and a little too sure in the things that I'm saying. And a lot of times it'll just piss people off. But sometimes when you're being very vulnerable and honest about where you're at

and the fact that you're just being honest in your uncertainty, I think a lot of people are sort of like, oh, poor Link. And that's not at all what you've meant to communicate. So I'm glad you're saying that upfront because I know you and I know where you're at spiritually. And I know that it's not a place to be pitied. Absolutely not.

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at. And I think that when you mentioned, my style is, it's not as assertive and maybe when it comes to certain things, I don't assert confidence in certain things that I believe, especially when what I'm asserting is embracing uncertainty. But I also think that a little bit of that, well, I don't know how much of it,

but a factor that kind of drives that in me is kind of reacting to, I just have a negative reaction to when people assert something that I just don't believe you can know with 100% certainty, it bothers me. Yeah. So it's not my instinct to do that. You know, I share my experience,

draw your own conclusions. Or just, you know, another thing I'm learning is that you can listen, you can truly listen to somebody, you can truly empathize with somebody, and it's not always about making a decision or a judgment about them. That's something that I've, that I realized that I thought, for some reason, I thought I had to operate that way.

And- Well, that's the world that we come from. When you're in a system, when you encounter things, you have to file them into your system. And so we've kind of been trained for a lifetime of systematizing people into an ideology and we're trying really hard to not continue to do that. There's a way to be impacted

by empathetically interacting with somebody that's not that judgment doesn't have to be a component of it. And which brings me to the fact that like a year later, I don't have any more answers than I had a year ago. But I'll tell you, I do believe that my soul is richer because I've made some progress in knowing and loving myself more.

That's through therapy, through introspection, through conversations. And I'm beginning to experience how understanding and accepting myself has expanded my capacity to love other people. That's where I felt like I've needed to focus a lot of my energy for the past year in terms of my spiritual journey.

And I feel like for Christy and I as a couple, just to kind of talk about the two of us for a little bit, this journey is really stretching us. And I mean, really good stretching is really not comfortable. You know, it's sometimes it hurts a little. It needs to hurt in the right way so that ultimately it's strengthening

and definitely the experiences that we're going through together and the spiritual components of that included are strengthening our bond. So we're good on that front too. Christy really helped me figure out what I wanted to say today. And as I was kind of prepping it,

I texted her yesterday and I sent something to her and I just also told her how much I love us. And she replied and said, I love us too. I want you to feel freedom and embrace the journey that you are on, heart emoji. And it meant so much to have her support and to say, be free, embrace what you're going through. It's not, you're not a victim of something.

This is a journey to be embraced, to be celebrated. And, but I'm just so grateful that she can, And, you know, but I'm just so grateful that she loves me in that way and that she can send me that text, you know? I don't think I'd be able to share these things publicly right now without her support. I know I wouldn't. And people also wonder about our kids in this process.

So, you know, I wanna talk about that just a little bit too. Honestly, I mean, there are times when the fear creeps back in that maybe we've done them a disservice by not raising them in the church. But I don't believe that because I see them. I know their hearts. I mean, while there may be things that they missed out on,

there are many pitfalls they were spared. And I look at Lily, I look at Lincoln, I look at Lando, and I know them, they're wholehearted, wonderful humans. And I admire them so much for who they are and I'm proud of them. And I don't regret the trajectory of our lives and how we parented them and I stand by it overall. You know, I'm very flawed, I stand by it overall.

I'm very flawed, but I think it's important that they could articulate those flaws. Well, I think one of the things that both of us have encountered post deconstruction as a dad is, within the church, within the evangelical church, there is an expectation that the dad, the father, is the spiritual leader of the household. Yeah. It's based on a lot of things, mostly just patriarchy.

And there's an expectation that not only would the dad be a leader, but the dad has the answers, right? And the dad sets the tone, sets the pace, he leads his family. And I mean, as- And he's held accountable to that. Well, but also as a Christian man, as a Christian dad, there's this expectation

that you'll have the answers and that there's very few things that you won't have answers to and there is a playbook for everything that your kids or your wife might encounter. First of all, a lot of pressure. But I think in my case, there was a lot of sort of just playing along with that, being like, I don't really have the answers to this, but I can point you to an answer

that we sort of collectively as a community come up with. And I think one of the biggest things as a father is when there is true uncertainty, there are situations that do not have an answer and being able to say, I don't know. I don't know if there's a satisfactory answer to this question that you have. I don't know if there's a satisfactory answer to this question that you have. I don't know if there's a satisfactory solution

to this situation, but we can figure it out together. And if you've had something, if you've had a system and you no longer have the system, you can feel that fear that you're talking about. It's like, man, they're going through this right now. And if I just, I'm not sure it's the right answer, but it is an answer that I could be getting from my former belief system.

And now I'm just saying, I don't know. And you feel a little bit, you feel like a failure a little bit. Yeah, I mean, Lily's turning 18. She's leaving the house, go off to college and you know, being an adult. But and you know, everything I said a few seconds ago still stands but you know, I have noticed that there's times when I would not,

I think I would opt to not say something because it would be you know, I would, the instinct is in the lack of an answer, it's hard to make something a teachable moment when what you're conveying is embracing uncertainty and the truth of that. And it's, I think some things will come clear as I continue talking.

I think they'll come true too. Come true. As I, you know, clear, will come clear about, you know, what I continue to wrestle with from my past and how it impacts my point of view on myself and my relationships with Christy and the kids and other people, but, you know, I'm trying to take a more active effort

to have conversation, open-ended conversations where these topics are not taboo, just because you don't have an answer doesn't make it taboo. It doesn't make it something to be ashamed of. You know, it's like, this is real. And let's not be afraid to talk about it openly as a family. So, I mean, just to complete that point, when I look at my relationship with myself,

my relationship with Christy and with our kids, I'm just, I am so grateful for what we have and I'm relieved honestly, because like we said, there was a time for most of my life, in fact, when I firmly believed that those relationships could not flourish and weather life's storms apart from Jesus. and weather life storms apart from Jesus.

So, you know, with all that we shared last year and, I still struggle with giving myself permission to outright say this, but if there is no God, I'm okay with that. In fact, I'm even good with that. I'm not saying I prefer that, but I'm saying I'm even good with it. I have accepted that as a real possibility

and I think I'm at peace with it. Maybe there's a loving God and I'm open and hopeful that there is, but I'm also good if I never find out because there's just no guarantee that I will find out. In the meantime, part of my spiritual practice is processing and shedding the guilt and baggage of judgment that I've carried for the majority of my life. Maybe my point of view on these things that I've stated,

maybe they sound like harsh statements. I think about people who love me, who would hear me say those things. And I'm like, well, maybe I could have taken the edge off of that. And maybe my perspective will change over time, but that's where I'm at. I don't wanna be embarrassed or ashamed of it.

Or like I said, I wanna shed the guilt and baggage of judgment that comes along with me saying that out loud to who knows how many people. I mean, that's just a big part of my personal work right now, because I mean, at 42, I hopefully have even more life to live

than I've already lived. Well, so at least 84. Yeah, I'm aiming for 85. Well, I mean, I don already lived. Well, so at least 84. Yeah, I'm aiming for 85. Well, I mean, I don't know. That would be currently beyond the average life expectancy of an American male. Keep that to yourself. But I have to believe that that'll keep,

I think it's actually reversed recently. And living in California and breathing in all this smog, you're probably not doing yourself any, I'm just saying you'd be lucky to get to 84. Well, okay, given that it seems that half of my life is over, I'm gonna live the life that I have and I wanna embrace it wholeheartedly. You know, I wanna move forward embracing the now

that I have been gifted. Yeah. And I can say that I've been gifted, even though I don't know if there's, even if there's a giver, but I hope there is. So I'm ready to share some of my experiences, three of them over the past year that have helped define what my spiritual journey looks like

up to this point. Shop Best Buy's ultimate smartphone sale today. Get a Best Buy gift card of up to $200 on select phone activations with major carriers. Visit your nearest Best Buy store today. Terms and conditions apply. Like I said, you know, for me to say it's been a difficult year, you know, I can keep acknowledging how people have it more difficult or how it's been a difficult and difficult year. And there was a pretty lengthy buildup to my nanny passing away. You know, I mentioned that as one of like my most meaningful moments of last year. Of course, that's my mom's mom. And she had a sense that her life was winding down.

So I was the one to help her get her will in order. And it wasn't just one conversation. It's like the whole process, including getting her to a lawyer and talking to, everything that went along with it, it's just a number of months, and it's all happening over the phone. And, you know, it's, you know,

she loved me her whole life. And in the end, I just couldn't be there to just hug her. And, you know, it's so much of our communication was just about me helping her find peace with this outlying thing associated with her will, which I was very glad to do, but I felt frustrated and I felt helpless and I felt helpless and I felt sad. You know, it's just, you find yourself,

it's different when you're just having a phone call and you find yourself having, it's like, oh, this is the last phone call, you know? I'm saying something, you know, to her that is different because you're not there. I'm saying something to her that is different because you're not there. And then you're not there for the family afterward. I mean, it was tough.

And of course I wanted to hope that she was in heaven. Of course I wanted to hope that she was in heaven. All of me believes there is no hell, but a big part of me believes that there might not be a heaven either. We just cease to exist. But I mean that, you know, okay, that's what I, I hold that thought, I hold that belief in my mind,

but it gets difficult to wrestle with when you've got one more loved one on the other side, right? But it didn't change the conclusions I've already come to. You know, it's, I think of a fear of death and, you know, a desire for eternal life for my loved ones and myself is, you know, is very appealing, but it's not, you know, that's not the foundation for what I believe. It's like a benefit, I felt like.

So it, I don't know. Although it might be the foundation for religion in general. It just didn't change my conclusions. I didn't find myself as I was hurting and I was wrestling with that, or I was, you know, I was writing her eulogy to give to somebody else to read. You know, it was, all of those feelings,

it didn't lead to doubt, honestly. It was just, of course she's gonna die. Of course we're all gonna die. It's just, it was kind of this, I have these conclusions and I have this pain and I'm aware that these things will happen. So it's, I'm left with, I don't know. Do I know, can I assert where she is?

Can I give that comfort? Can I comfort myself or my loved ones in that way? I don't know, who really does? So I celebrated her life as much as I could and I talked to my family and processed it as much as I could and I tried to embrace the grief to make it as real as possible without being there and accept something we all know

that death is a part of life and that this is a part of my spiritual exercise. I couldn't have predicted beforehand that that's how I would have interacted with all of it. And you know, there'll be another way when I eventually do get to go home and help get everything in order that's still around at the house and stuff,

I'm sure there'll be another wave of this, but. Well, the fact is, is that you, again, whatever you can say in a eulogy about your grandmother that doesn't come from a place rooted in Christian faith is not going to be as emotionally satisfying. Uncertainty is not as emotionally satisfying. Uncertainty is not as emotionally satisfying as this certain hope that you can tell everybody there,

hey, she's in a better place. Like, let's just be honest, that is the easiest thing to say, right? That is the easiest, most comforting thing to say to a group of grieving people is that this person's in a better place. I do think that there, and you know, I'm still thinking a lot about this.

There's in terms of, you know, my relationship with death. And I do think that there is, I do have hope that there's more, there is more, there's a way to embrace it and not shy away from it that to find beauty in it that is different. That's not something that I'm at a place to present, but it's something that I guess maybe ironically I'm hopeful about.

Well, I don't think culturally or as a species we're there yet, honestly, right? Culturally as? Meaning that the cultural convention of a faith-based funeral is still the standard, even for people who aren't really faith-based in a lot of ways, right? It's another conversation. What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic? Well, for us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is...

Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show. With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes galore so join us every friday wherever you get

your podcasts and watch full video episodes on crunchyroll or on the crunchyroll youtube channel i guess to to move on to another experience i i alluded to this as well at the end of the year but christy and i walked through a really difficult time together over many months this past year. And anxiety is not someone's fault. And it affects more than just the one who's directly experiencing it. It was a tough stretch, pun intended. There were many sleepless nights and there was a lot of fear.

There were many sleepless nights and there was a lot of fear. There were times when I felt completely disoriented and again, powerless and scared. I mean, you know, because you and Jesse were there for us as well as some other close friends. But throughout all of it, I didn't really ever think about praying. Now, as an aside, I just wanna acknowledge that

even now as I say that, I think it comes out like a confession. It's like, I didn't even think about praying. And I'm not saying that I wish I did. I'm making an observation and I wanna unpack it. But like for a second, I'm unpacking my emotions associated with even saying it and the fact that it comes across as a confession.

I feel ashamed. I feel shame. It just wells up from inside of me. Making that statement, I feel the feelings of failure or being a bad person. But here's what I believe about that. I believe that that is my inner critic talking,

a version of my former self. And he is not being fair or kind or correct. If I don't believe in the power of prayer, why should I feel guilty about not praying? And so I, you know, I processed that and I say, come on, just come on, Link, just be free, be free of this. And I mean, if it were only that easy,

if it was like in canting some sort of, you know, a spell or like something to release a spell, maybe is a better analogy. But I mean, you know this, we talk about it. Sometimes we joke about it, which I think is healthy, but I feel guilty a lot. It's not really related. I mean, in this instance,

it's not related to like specific nitpicky things like, oh, I'm guilty because not related to like specific, like nitpicky things like, oh, I'm guilty because I did that like this, like an OCD fixation on individual actions. You know, it's more, I think my guilt comes from this place of like a lingering cloud of guilt that shows up, hangs around and is associated with the overall idea

of me leaving my faith. It's the pity of my previous self feeling sorry for me and also judging the now me. But I'm learning that I don't have to listen to that voice. So I can say, you know what, Christy and I walked through an extremely challenging period of time. And it, you know, I didn't pray.

It wasn't, and it wasn't this stubborn, why, you know, I've said what I believe and now I gotta believe it and I'm not gonna pray. You know, there was no internal dialogue about that. I just, I just- You weren't tempted, you weren't even tempted to. I wasn't wrestling with reverse doubt or like I didn't, you know, like cover my bases.

Like I was at my wits end. I mean, we were having conversations that like I would hear what I was saying to you and it was just, I didn't know what I meant. You know, I haven't observed, I haven't been in that situation before. I don't know that, I mean, you tell me, have you ever seen me or Christy at a place where it was

like, I don't know, it seems like a different person, like at kind of a loss. You were incapacitated. Right. Yeah. And, you know, I think that is a moment where, you know, cinematically speaking, where the character would drop to their knees and say, oh God, I'm sorry that I,

that I forsook you, please, you know, like a moment of repentance or something, or just a moment of desperate prayer, you know, like, you know, you have the cinematic bargaining with God, you know? Well, and I think that's because that's the narrative that we believe and I think. Yeah, I thought you'll hit rock bottom. And I think it's what a lot of people have said about us.

It's just like, okay, well, those boys are riding high right now, but you know, the moment that the bottom drops out from one of them, some tragedy happens, it's like, that's the moment that they'll turn around and come back to God. And I just don't- I don't wanna skip over the inner voice thing because if you're not gonna come back to it,

because I think that's really significant for so many people, the former voice. And especially as somebody who struggles with, I don't necessarily, I struggle with a lot of shame. I'm the king of shame, but guilt is not so much my thing. But for somebody who has, who struggles with guilt, being a part of a religious system, especially in our experience, evangelical Christianity,

it's like steroids for the guilty, right? It's high octane. And of course I understand that like, I remember being an evangelical and saying that like, listen, no, we're all about grace. It's the Catholics or the Jews. They're the ones who are all about works and they're the ones who are guilt ridden,

but we live in the freedom that comes with a grace-based relationship with Christ. And it's like, it's a fun thing to say, but in reality, there's still so much pressure and there's still so much expectation. My wife is an expert at talking about this, about what it's like to be somebody with OCD in the midst of a religious system.

But one of the things that, so I also do the same thing. I have that former self who's constantly judging me. I think it's one of the reasons that I can talk about these things in a way that connects with people who are still in the church because I have a really, really strong connection with my former self. But the change in relationship, and this is something that has come through therapy,

my therapist has helped me see this is that what you're talking about is looking at that former self and saying that former self is wrong, that former self is being judgmental, that former self is not being kind and I don't have to listen to that former self. I think one additional step that has been really helpful for me is having sympathy.

Yes, well, I would say- Having empathy for that. I would say empathy. Having empathy for that former self. Well, yeah, and absolutely. And so I'm glad you teed that up because that is something that I'm working on. It's like, okay, I know that this inner critic, this inner voice,

this former self is harsh, but I don't have to respond that way because I can also see that there's, his motive is to protect me. It's a part of myself, yes, for my past, but it's still a part of who I am that's trying to protect me from something. But it's like, okay, you know what?

I appreciate what you're trying to do here. And I know you're just trying to help me and protect me. And there is work for me to say, okay, protect me from what, and let's get into those specifics. But to have an empathetic response that's like, but you know, there is work for me to say, okay, protect me from what and let's get into those specifics. But to have an empathetic response that's like, but you know what, thank you, but I don't have to take action on this and you are not all of me.

So yeah, that is something that in therapy I'm seeing. And I might hit on it a little bit more with this third experience, but yeah, you're exactly right. And I'm glad you brought that up. So just to get back to the trial or however you wanna put it, like what Christy and I went through. And I mean, I don't wanna,

I'm not gonna share all the details of it at this point. I think a lot of that's her story to tell and it's, or maybe our story to tell together at some point, who knows, but for now, I'll just say that it was, Christy was dealing with a debilitating level of anxiety, with all the circumstances that are happening, like a certain level of health anxiety that then just became, yeah, it just became debilitating

and there were panic attacks and there was, it's not as simple as Googling how to deal with a panic attack or how to deal with health anxiety. You know, it's like you find yourself in a place where it's okay, the natural tendency is a downward spiral here that then we've gotta start, find the right people to talk to

and the right things to do to put, to back back out of this or to walk, really, I would say to walk through it to a healthier place. But as far as it relates to my spiritual journey, just kind of processing how I did respond to it. Yeah, I didn't pray to or curse God. I just, I mean, I just responded practically, I did everything that I could.

I just, I mean, when I look back on it, I would say that I met the situation with love. I felt as if I was acting on instinct at the time. But I realize now that it was, I mean, it was simply love. I love Christy with everything that I've got. And it was then that I, I mean, I really knew it at those points, you know? And we leaned on friends and professionals to help us

and they did and we got through it. And I mean, it's not, there are residual effects and there's some long-term things that we deal with associated with it and that we're more ready for now, but when the worst of it was behind us, I was extremely grateful. But I didn't thank God per se.

I didn't take credit. And I'll quiet that voice that tells me that I should feel guilty for not giving God the glory, so to speak. I mean, maybe somebody would listen to our description of that inner voice and say that that's God or that's the Holy Spirit. And, you know, but I don't know, but I do not think so. You know, it's because of the outcome

of what that voice is telling me, the application of it. It's just not, that's not it. Well, and as someone who is also married to someone who has had a lifelong struggle with anxiety and a struggle with anxiety that has been debilitating at times and has happened inside the church with great faith and then outside of the church

with no faith in that system. There is, in my experience, there is a tendency to, because you have the ability to pray and because you do have the ability to, when you're at your wit's end, to sort of give it over to the Lord, to invite God into it. Sometimes that leads to excluding or bypassing the practical steps that would actually be helpful.

Yeah, we had to drill in very deeply and specifically with professionals involved, with therapists and psychiatrists and things that, you know, there's no embarrassment associated with saying that and in the same way that if you had a physical condition, if you had, you know, that you would drill in medically and you would do everything you could

and you wouldn't just resort. There are people within the church. Only a just resort. There are people within the church. Only a spiritual exercise. There are people within the church. And we don't come from a tradition that is like anti-science and anti, I mean, a little anti-science, but not like anti-doctor necessarily.

I mean, it's kind of becoming more anti-doctor with COVID and everything. But there is this, there is a little bit of a, oh, you didn't, God didn't do this for you. You kind of had to go to the world to get your problem solved. And there's some people, depending on what tradition they're in,

that live in debilitating mental illness. Yes. Because they cannot get out of the system. Especially mental illness because those type of things are the unseen problems and challenges are the ones that can be easily written off with a prayer or a proverb or some teaching. And having benefited from therapists and psychiatrists

and psychological treatment, it's just not the, it doesn't pinpoint the specific problems, you know? I think that it requires a professional to do that. It's not just something that you can apply just general platitude to. And I'll admit something that, this will probably get me in trouble, but I'm used to it.

Now, when we seek treatment from professionals, whether they be therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, either for ourselves or for other people that we know who are going through things, I actually, at this point in my life, I try to steer away from people who have a faith-based approach or who really bring a Christian worldview

into their treatment. Again, because my experience is that it's like filling in the gap with something that isn't actually going to be helpful. It's like, let's set that aside. Let's set that uncertain, I don't know if praying does anything, giving it to God may do nothing.

Let's take the practical tested approach to this problem so we can actually solve it. And again, I'm not saying that having a Christian worldview is a bad thing. I'm just saying when somebody is, if I've got a cancer doctor who's working on me, I don't want that doctor to say, you know what, I'm doing this operation on you,

but I'm really praying that it goes well. Or do I just want him to say, I'm going to do it well. And it's all on me to do it well. Again, I mean- Well, I don't, yeah, I'm sure that there's pastors who, if people come to them from their congregation with problems, they'll say, with this particular challenge that you're sharing with me,

you need to see a psychiatrist, a psychologist, a therapist, you know, but that wasn't our experience when we were growing up. And you wouldn't even, even if you had to go to one of those places, you would just use, you would say, I went to counseling. You would use a code word and it would be stigmatized. And there's like a lot of prayer-based counseling

and that kind of thing. That's acceptable. You can do that. But if it's just the practical scientific stuff, then I don't know about that. That's kind of the attitude that we had. So I'll move to the third and final experience that I wanted to share today.

And that's, and there's, yeah, the details of this are not my story to tell. So, you know, forgive me for, well, don't forgive me. I know you understand that the way that I'm telling this and the details I'm putting in and leaving out, but my mom is currently facing

what may be the most difficult trial of her entire life. Every day, all year long, for years now. And again, we have the COVID of it all. I'm her only child. I don't know if you could tell I was her only child. No comment. And I've not been able to be with her. And I try my best to get better at talking on the phone

and to understand her situation and assess what needs to be done and to help her. But I'm stuck on the opposite coast because of the pandemic. And so I, you know, I worry about her. And again, it's that feeling of helplessness. And, you know, I feel bad for going weeks in between talking to her and, but when I do talk to her,

she's always happy to hear my voice and she doesn't wanna dump her problems on me, but what else is there to talk about because this has become her entire life, you know? So we talk about how she's doing and I try to really hear her and offer encouragement and help think through things. And it's become, you know, like I just realized

how difficult and the toll this was also taking on me, you know? And we were on the phone recently and she relayed a conversation that she had had with someone else. And I'm not gonna tell you the story because the story was meant for me. And you know what, when she told me the conversation she had, she didn't build it up

or maybe she didn't even realize the poignancy of it. But again, I'm not sure, I don't wanna share her situation, but what she shared was, it was heartbreaking and it was honest and it was beautiful and it was tragic and it was inspiring and it stopped me dead in my tracks. And in this moment, I realized,

not only was I being there for my mom, but even with all that she was going through, she was also still being there for me. And the specifics of her story and what she went through and was telling me about, it painted this perfect picture of love. And she showed me a type of love to aspire to.

And I've thought a lot about it since then and I've realized that this is my spiritual practice. Love will be my guide. I'm gonna make up my mind to be introspective, to not miss moments like that as much as I can. And I will not tear myself apart from the inside. and I will not tear myself apart from the inside. I will love myself and I will love others as much as I can

and I will live the life that I have. And that's my spiritual practice. At a point when, and so it, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how people will process that, is glib or elegant or whatever. But for me, when you boil something down to something like that, there's so much that I just can't convey

that it actually means to me in terms of, I think part of it is validating that I still have a spiritual, I'm still on a spiritual journey. I'm not defined by what I'm not anymore. I'm alive. And I've got this moment, we're sharing this moment and there's so much,

there's so much beauty that we can enjoy and appreciate or we can miss and I'm sure that includes everything that I've talked about. Like I didn't talk about these things to pull at heartstrings and just to prove anything. It was, these things are going to happen. Who am I'm not, you know, tragedy, suffering, loss, death. These are not things that I want to try my best to avoid. You know, who am I to expect for these things

not to happen to me and people that I love? Things happen. And giving myself permission to say, you know what? This is my, this is not only my life, but this is my spiritual practice. And I'm good with it. I'm, I have a level of peace at this point

and I'm moving forward hopefully. Well, and love being your guide as you know, 60s peace and love as it sounds, it is actually very practical and actually a lot more informative than I would have ever thought. You know, because I- I just, yeah. Totally on the same page.

Because I thought it couldn't be enough. It's like, yeah, I mean, you say it can be enough, but- To navigate a situation, a life situation that is a very specific challenge, kind of like the ones that you've shared here, there is sort of the Christian way to do those things. I would argue that in many ways, the Christian way is a way of love, right?

You will navigate it in a way of love. It's not a super simple thing. There's plenty of places where everyone within the church and outside of the church fails in that. But ultimately what I'm saying is that going into a complex life situation where you don't have the rule book, the literal rule book of the Bible to guide you

and saying, I'm gonna let love guide me through this. I think it's actually really, really effective and informative than I would have ever imagined it being. And I'm saying that's what I'm taking from these experiences. Yeah. I mean, that's my takeaway is that like, it just, you know, we, I'm still here.

This is not about me. I mean, we normally end in Ear Biscuit with a recommendation. I'm, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, instead of telling you something to buy or watch this week, I just wanted to acknowledge that another thing that's very clear to me and as I look back on these experiences

that I could not have made it through any of those without the support of people who loved me, my friends, my family. And so, I mean, maybe it's as a result of a spiritual struggle, maybe it's a result of some other struggle, but if, you know, I just wanna encourage you, if you need help, find someone you trust, someone who loves you no matter what. And if it feels like a risk,

take the risk and ask for help. I know that it really needs to be somebody that you trust, who loves you no matter what. And we were talking about like, do we have a specific, I wish we had a resource that would connect everybody with somebody who loves them unconditionally. And I think that's just, that's how I feel about it, but that's the extent of my recommendation.

We will do some research on that. What I'll add to that is that I know that there are people listening who are still in, is that I know that there are people listening who are still in the church or a religious system of some kind. And not all, listen, again, the point of what we are telling our stories is not to move people out of the church. But there are some people in a situation

and you know that it is unhealthy and you know that you shouldn't be there, but you're alone. And you know that if you go talk to anybody in your family, anybody who's a close friend, they're all in it. Yeah. And you know the kind of answers you're gonna get and you feel stuck, you feel alone.

Me and Link, we had each other, we had our wives, we had close friends, we actually had close Christian friends who were not judgmental and we can process and we could talk openly about these things as we processed all of it. You may not have that. So first of all, just our hearts go out to you because we know that there are people in that situation.

What we can say is that there is somebody out there. There is somebody out there that you can connect with, that you can confide in. And- Don't give up looking. Don't give up the search. Don't give up the search. And don't settle for being in a place that you know

is ultimately unhealthy for you. Thanks for listening. I'm so grateful that we have this open-hearted community of support and lots of love right back at you. Hashtag your biscuits. Let's keep talking.