Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - Our College Years: Dating Our Wives In Purity Culture | Ear Biscuits Ep.303

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

From a masturbation chart posted in their college apartment to the extent of the physical relationship with their wives pre-marriage, listen to R&L talk about how they navigated through purity culture during their college years and throughout their engagement on this third episode of Sextember! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is mythical. Shop Best Buy's ultimate smartphone sale today. Get a Best Buy gift card of up to $200 on select phone activations with major carriers. Visit your nearest Best Buy store today. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life and sex for a long time. I'm Rhett.

And I'm Link. This week at the Round Table of Dim Lighting, we are continuing to press forward into our sexual experiences chronologically. We try to fit the sex into sex timber, but we just have, I mean, we are just exploding, bursting at the seams with so much sexual energy that it has to spill over into October.

So this is basically part two of the purity culture, you know, exploration specifically about college. Yeah, so episode three, last week we talked about high school experience. This week, let's get into the college thing because that's when we really got into all of the systemization associated with purity culture. You're gonna think you're hearing like,

I mean, depending on your background, I think you might think you're listening to aliens speak. I don't know. I mean, you may have already felt that way, but it's gonna get even weirder today. Yeah, I mean, we've lived it. We've talked about it amongst friends over the years and we've alluded to, especially when it came to

dating and engagement with our wives in the Book of Mythicality, but we didn't really talk about the sex aspect of it. So we're gonna get into that today. Again, we're starting to see the responses come in. I'm excited that people are resonating with the fact that, hey, we're just speaking honestly about our experience and that serves to remove some of the stigma, but it's still a bit awkward, right?

So I'm not gonna ask you to sing the theme song again. Thank you, I didn't want to. It was really supposed to just be a one-time thing. I'll give the disclaimer. If you don't wanna hear your two internet dads, uncles, brothers, cousins, whatever you wanna call us, talk specifically and probably explicitly about sex at times over the course of this conversation,

maybe this isn't for you. So I'm just putting that out there. You don't have to listen to this, but we're committed to exploring it honestly. But we are exploring it from two very specific and narrow perspectives. So I guess you can call this the non-musical disclaimer that we are two straight, white, cis, male dudes

who did not have sex until we were married to our wives that we are still married to. We've each only had sex with one woman for over 20 years. Yeah. And all of the circumstances leading up to it that we'll talk about today are very specific to our experience and we acknowledge that there's a myriad

of experiences out there, perspectives, and even the way that people interact with purity culture. There's a, as I said, there's a broad spectrum of ways that you can be impacted by that. Right. And some are really horrible. Some people might say it was positive

and we're somewhere in the middle and I think we'll explore that. And because I've seen a few of the comments and people asking us to talk about specific things, like, are you guys going to address sexual abuse as an example? I wanna be clear and say that we are speaking from our experience and our perspective.

So this is not comprehensive. It's not an exhaustive exploration of everything that we think about sex. We're not going to talk about sexual abuse because that's not an exhaustive exploration of everything that we think about sex. We're not going to talk about sexual abuse because that's not something that we personally have experienced. And if we're gonna start talking about that, we would bring someone in who has a perspective on that

from experience. And that's not what this podcast is. We just talk to each other. So there may be some things that you want us to talk about and you wanna get our opinion on, but we just don't wanna to be those, you know, two dudes with a podcast who are just giving their opinion about things

that they have no business giving their opinion about. We do that enough already. So this is not about our opinion about things. This is about our experience. And even with what Link said, I'm sure that there may be some people who are a little bit offended by the fact that you said that you're trying to,

there's some good and there's some bad in your experience of being in the middle of this purity culture. Whereas there would be some people would be like, it's all bad, it's all unhealthy, it's all toxic, and this was my experience. And that is your experience. And we validate that experience. We acknowledge that experience.

Right. But I think that it's complex as we will explore how we got from point A to point B and some of the decisions that we made along the way that were based on the mindset that we had at the time. We may not agree with that mindset anymore, but we may be happy with where we're at now, with the result.

And that's not an endorsement of that way of thinking, it's just an illustration of the fact that this is a complex subject and we're not giving our sort of like final opinions on it. We're just telling you the story. So hopefully that helps to understand why there are certain things that we may not address altogether.

But we are opening up to questions in episode after next, if we continue at the pace that we're planning, now that we've adjusted and added an episode. So hashtag Ear Biscuits, let us know anything that you want us to talk about related to sex that we might've only glanced at or didn't talk about at all and we'll choose the ones that we feel like we have at least a little something

to say about. Hashtag good biscuits, let us know. But let's get into this, let's keep going. I know that I was kind of mapping out my high school relationship and how the physical aspect of that relationship started and ultimately defined so much of that relationship started and ultimately defined so much of our relationship and so much of my spiritual experience

and how I related to God to the point that we broke up and it was very heartbreaking scenario to break up just because basically I chose my relationship with God over my relationship with my girlfriend at the time. Leading like, so we broke up after my freshman year of college over that summer. And that experience, as you'll see, had a dramatic impact

on the decisions I made in terms of who I was gonna date next, which ended up being Christy. So I'll get into all that, but there is this whole year of being in college and entering into another level of purity culture, so we can kind of talk about that first. Yeah. I'll get back to like my dating trajectory and yours. And then I'll talk about meeting Jesse at this moment

and kind of at the peak of my purity. But we've covered a little bit about, you know, you guys know if you've listened to the podcast before, deconstruction series and their follow-up series, like we were involved in Campus Crusade for Christ, very involved. And so what our freshman year at NC State looked like is we went from these guys who were in this Christian band

who were being very serious about their faith and also there was a lot of accountability between the two of us, meaning that we actually were involved in each other's spiritual lives to kind of hold each other to the standards that we believe that we needed to be held to. And so there was just like camaraderie

and it was the two of us, it was our other bandmates. Then when we get to college, the band's still happening, but then we dive head first into Campus Crusade for Christ. And by the beginning of sophomore year, we had like, I'll speak for myself, I was leading a Bible study. I was leading the weekly meeting. I was the MC of the weekly meeting. I was like this public Christian, right?

Crusade at the time and probably still now is one of the, if not the largest student organization on campus at State. It wasn't that big at first when we started, but there was a few hundred students that would come every single week. And it was like, I was sort of setting myself up as like, yeah, I'm a Christian dude.

Yeah, well, yeah. And same for me, but very much involved in Bible study, involved in all the retreats that they would offer. Like our friend group was built within that context. I had study partners from like my engineering courses, but I wasn't really friends with anybody outside of Campus Crusade. Like we were just so all in.

It's kind of like going to class and study partners, all that type of stuff was like a different world. It's kind of like work George versus home George from Seinfeld. And I was on stage, like you were emceeing the meetings, I was on stage singing worship songs and eventually helping lead the worship band. So we were both very visible representations

of what a campus crusader looked and acted like. And we held ourselves to that standard. And if you saw us on campus, you most likely knew us through that. Like if you had come to Crusader, you knew somebody. Like again, this public Christian. So we put ourselves in this position where we knew that there was like a higher level of accountability.

Like people expected more from us. It kind of felt like if you go to church, you really hold your pastors or your priest or whatever, the spiritual authority in your life, if you had one or have one, you kind of hold them to this higher standard. And we welcomed that because it was just another way to really channel our motivations to serve God.

So we didn't do it for the reputation or to hold up the reputation, but it helped to reinforce what we wanted to devote our lives to. And that was serving God and being devoted in every way we could. Being as real as possible and not dividing our lives and saying, okay, when it comes to sex or purity,

and the word was thrown around a lot, we wanted to be as serious as possible. And we were- I mean, this is God we're talking about. And I will say, integrity has always been a thing that is very important to us, right? It was when we were in college,

it was after college, it is now. Like the whole idea of saying one thing publicly and being another thing in private has always been something that I have a huge problem with. I know you do as well. So it wasn't just like, oh, these people see me, I've got to act this way in public. It was very serious and went all the way down

to the core of our existence. And so it wasn't something that was just an outward external thing. It was incredibly personal and an internal thing. I wanted to kind of explore just for context, some of the, we talked a little bit in the last episode about some of the standards that we began to believe and some of the things that we were told in high school.

But when we got into crusade, there was a whole nother level of things that got added onto this. And there's just a couple that I remember. Okay. Guidelines and sort of ideas and rules. These are in no particular order. I remember being told, don't study the Bible with a girl.

Because, and definitely don't pray with a girl. Because studying the Bible and praying are intimate things. And if you do this like alone, if like you just sit down with a girl and start reading the Bible, which believe it or not, it's probably something that could very well have happened. It'll be this incredibly personal thing that then all you see end up screwing each other,

you know, because you've like connected in this deep spiritual way. I always thought that was an odd thing, but I was like, okay. And I was also very apt to be like, once I kind of assimilated into a group, whatever these preachers and these guests, because the way that it would work is we had guest speakers come in every single week, local pastors, local staff with other organizations,

sort of like Christian, almost always dudes, almost always white dudes coming in to kind of give their perspective and kind of preach at you every single week. And I was just like a sponge, man, taking it all in and they were like- That was the predisposition. It was like, whatever they say,

I'm gonna do because I wanna get this right. Yeah. That was definitely my mindset do because I wanna get this right. Yeah. That was definitely my mindset was, I wanna get this right. This matters more than anything. Yeah. And I wanna demonstrate my devotion to Jesus. So just tell me what to do and I will do it.

Tell me what not to do and I won't do it. I just want the system. I wanna know that I'm okay. Right. So- All you have to do is don't masturbate. That was know that I'm okay. Right. So- All you have to do is don't masturbate. That was a, it was a big thing. Like, of course, don't look at porn, don't masturbate.

And I mean, there was a bit of, yeah, but it was a constant struggle. An absolutely constant struggle. And when it came to dealing with women and also the advice for the women, one thing was side hugs. If you come from a Christian culture, you know about the side hug.

Like you're not supposed to hug a woman because you don't want her breasts to come in contact with your chest, which would be erotic and scandalous. And so there's literally this culture, I don't know if it's still happening, but there's a culture of side-hugging, which just became the normal greeting for all the ladies.

Oh, I can side hug like the best of them. But it totally makes sense when you're, I can side hug like the best of them. But it totally makes sense when you're, like you're trying to remove all physical aspects of any type of relationship and remain pure. And I mean, lust is something that happens in your heart. It's not something that happens with your hands or with parts of your body first.

So it goes that deeply. So you're trying to nip any sort of- Listen, I told you we're still, we're 12 year old boys. Nip it in the bud. We're 12 year old boys, I'm sorry. We never talked about sex. This is explicitly on the internet. If it's nip, I'm gonna go for it.

You're nipping all this in the bud of your thought life and saying, I mean, talk about thought life for a second, just as an aside, and we'll get back to the side hug. But there was this principle of taking every thought captive. So the principle was, you can sin in your heart and in your mind by fixating or by lusting after someone who's not your partner, like your marriage partner.

And again, anything you would do, like lust after somebody, have a little fantasy, look at a girl's butt and say, and appreciate it in a detailed way. These are, this is all sinful if you give into it, but it kind of left you with this feeling of, even when the thought pops into my head, thoughts that as a matter of fact are completely normal

and just, I would say instinctive, like to notice someone and be attracted to them physically. There's nothing, that's just a natural occurrence that maybe the teaching wasn't that's wrong, but the takeaway behind the teaching was, I start to feel dirty by having, by experiencing what are actually natural impulses and instinctual occurrences.

And it was being contextualized. Those natural, again, this is inside baseball, Christian stuff, but natural, natural man is sinful man. Natural man is carnal man, is according to the flesh, right? There is a distinction between the flesh and the spirit. And so the flesh, because of original sin, because of the original sin of Adam,

were born with these carnal things. So what, yeah, I'm not saying that there aren't Christians who would be like, yes, it's totally natural to be- And tamp it down. But it's confusing for somebody who's raging with hormones and constantly like. Developing. And again, this is my experience.

I mean, some people don't have, you know, some people are attracted to the same sex. Some people are attracted to both sexes. Some people aren't attracted to other sexes or anybody. But for me, I was like the default that I would return to, no matter how spiritual I was being, I was in the middle of leading a weekly meeting. I was in the default that I would return to no matter how spiritual I was being. I was in the middle of leading a weekly meeting. I was in the middle of leading a prayer.

I was in the middle of teaching a Bible study. I already explained how I felt about vaginas, right? Yes, you did. Yeah. And those, it would constantly return to my mind. I mean, I was a horny dude, right? And so it's just like in the midst of these sort of sacred, holy things, you're going back to this place where you're like,

ah, this impure thought, ah, this impure thought. And again, like you said, a totally natural thing, but you begin to almost hate yourself because you're dealing with it on such a regular basis. It's like the default mindset that you keep going back to. And you're being told that this is something that you should be taking every thought captive. You should be resisting this in a way that you really can't.

It's like trying to hold back a river. It's tamping things down. And there's this pressure that builds so that then you have to start building these systems of protection so that there's no one in your blast radius. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah, I know what you're saying. So side hugs actually makes sense when you're-

If the standard is to not have sex. When you're not coming to grips with, I'm using all of these. You said coming and grips. I'll try to stop. With your own desires and learning how to acknowledge them and engage with them in a healthy way that always involves consent, of course,

when you involve somebody else, but there's an understanding of this is a natural part of who I am and I need to deal with it in a way that, there's a healthy way to deal with it that doesn't revolve around a center of shame. But that was not my experience. My experience was this is wrong, this is not, this has to be acknowledged to God

every single time it happens if I wanna continue to have a relationship with God, an active relationship with God. I need to keep confessing. But what I'm saying is it brings you to a point where you have to say, I can't hug a girl straight on because I am so pent up inside

that I fixate on the fact that I'm having some booby contact. Right. And it actually is just not, you know, so you put these boundaries in place where that's not gonna happen versus, okay, there's a healthy way to deal with what's going on in your body and in your mind

and how you interact with other people. Then just, okay, let's not, then let's just go a totally different direction that has nothing to do with it. You can only side hug. Not like, there is a healthy way to just hug somebody, but let's not have that conversation. Let's have this, let's be as pure as possible.

What else came up? There's a couple more things on the list. And also I think it leads into a conversation about what it was, the narrative that was being painted about us by this whole thing. Wherever you're going, you better believe American Express

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Enjoy your room upgrade. Wherever you go, we'll go together. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Terms apply. What else? What about the purse straps?

Yeah, so there were these standards, again, as we established last time, most of these standards ended up affecting the women more than the men, right? One was women were not supposed, they were supposed to be very conscious of where their purse strap went, and it could not go between the boobies, okay?

Because if it goes between the boobies, it really emphasizes those boobies and those men are just gonna go fucking crazy, oh boobies! And then also they had to be very conscious of where their seatbelt, if you get into a car with a man and you're putting on your seatbelt, don't put the strap in between your boobies because one of those tits is gonna pop up

and be very visible. I don't know where you were supposed to put it because if you put it below it, both of the boobies come up. If you put it above it, I think you'll choke in an accident. This is horrible advice. We need a five-point harness. What we needed is a Christian five-point harness for women

that was like a built in brassiere that just covered the boobs, kept everything in place, nothing's jiggling, nobody's stumbling. A baby seat. We could've sold that, I wish I could go back in time and sell an upgrade five point harness for women riding in cars with Christian men. Talking about Christian women in baby seats,

but really what you're, No, I'm just talking about a harness. The outcome is that, A harness. It was the men, it, the teaching was that, Men are animals. The men are the animal babies. Like they're the ones who need to be, you know,

you've gotta make these decisions to protect them from themselves. To keep them from stumbling is the phrase that is in the Bible, I guess. Probably. You don't wanna cause your Christian brother to stumble, so don't put the strap in between your boobaloos. So again.

So it became the women's responsibility to protect the men from themselves. But the one thing I will say is if you start with a worldview where people are basically bad, people are basically evil, people are basically evil, people are basically carnal, and sex outside of a heterosexual monogamous marriage is always wrong, that is the only context, you see how these standards

get put on top of that to keep you from the sin, right? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's logical if that's where you start. I don't start there anymore, so it all seems crazy to me. And if you don't have that standard as well, it all seems crazy. And the reality is, is that because people are naturally sexually active and people gonna screw, right?

It happens. And because that's the way people's bodies work, that doesn't mean just let it all hang out and there's no standards at all. But I'm saying that when you tamp down to this degree, you end up damaging people in ways that you end up finding out later in life exactly what that damage was.

You begin to wake up and realize, oh, that was very damaging. What we were doing, especially to those women, especially to anyone who was struggling with anything except a very specific heterosexual attraction. The damage that was being done to all those people was just, it wasn't even on the radar. We weren't thinking about what we were doing.

We thought we're keeping people from having sex outside of marriage and so this must be good. But it was creating this, for us, it was just like, you know, we heard about pastors who would have standards like I don't get on an elevator with a woman. I do not ever let a woman into my office. I would never have a woman in my office and close the door. Without somebody else being there.

And then you're like, and close the door. Without somebody else being there. And then you're like, and at the time you're like, this is good. Yes, this guy understands that the standard, he understands the standard and he's making the good, smart moves. But there's a whole bunch of stuff that's wrapped up in that. One of the things you're doing is you're saying

that you can't trust yourself, that being alone with a woman in an elevator, the only option, or like, can you, maybe we can just learn to control ourselves. And also what about the woman? She's there too. She has the ability to say yes or no. She actually has a will of her own.

And you're treating her like, every scenario is just set up like the woman is this object of desire and that all that she can do is either increase your sexual attraction to her or increase the risk that you're going to have around her and you are an animal and you've got to keep yourself in a cage, whereas what would it be like to be like, maybe I'll try to ride on an elevator with a woman and see what happens.

Maybe I can get to the seventh floor without making out with her. Come on, think about what you're saying about yourself. We had this belief that you couldn't be friends with, we couldn't be friends with a girl, really. I mean, we grew up with friends who were girls, but then we kind of distanced ourselves over time. And especially if you dated somebody and then afterward,

and this is complicated and maybe off topic, but we definitely had this belief that you can never be friends with them afterwards. Because there's too much, everything is sexually charged. Right. And again, I feel like it's just not coming to grips with the reality of what was happening from a biological standpoint that it,

yeah, it got to this point very quickly. And like a sponge, I soaked it up because I wanted that system. When it came to masturbation, we didn't want, as guys we would talk about it, but I don't know that the girls were talking about it. I did not believe that any girl masturbated. Or looked at porn.

Or looked at porn. We believe that they just did not do that. Because it was the guys who had to be controlled and protected from themselves. And so that was kind of the message I got was that, and girls aren't into sex. And that was the message that the women were getting as well, by the way.

So the ones that were masturbating, which is probably all of them, you know, what were they feeling like at the time? I don't know, I never talked to them. It doesn't seem like anybody, I mean, the boys are talking about masturbation all the time. They go to these conferences

and they talk about porn and masturbation. Well, I'm interested in those things too, but I guess I'm weird because we're not talking about it. We're just talking about purity rings. Right, yeah, the guys didn't get a purity ring and the guys didn't go to a dance with their mom and promise to their mom at a dance that they weren't gonna have sex

with anyone until they got married. Purity balls, talk about balls. And if you search purity culture, just amongst podcasts, I've listened to a number of podcasts and they're most all women sharing their perspectives. So it's out there. I encourage you to search that if you're interested in that perspective.

And there is a talk about like guys kind of like getting together and joking about masturbating. There was kind of this wink wink, you know, it's like, we know looking at porn is something you shouldn't do, but it happens. But I would say for me, I was so dedicated that I never let myself off the hook. And we, as a friend group within crew,

like we were very serious about given the circumstances that we've already described about holding each other accountable and being as holy as possible. We made a chart in our apartment and everybody's name was on the left side and then there were star stickers. Now you must have made this chart.

And you- Because I vaguely remember it. Every time you masturbated, you were supposed to put a star on the chart. Which is a little, I mean, it should have been like a thumbs down or something. To confess to everybody that you did it. We also had a rule that the bathroom doors

would not be shut. I do remember that. So if you were dropping a deuce, the door had to be cracked. Cracked. If you were taking a shower, the door had to be cracked. And anyone, you invited any other roommate to just at any moment, just kick that crack door open and make sure you weren't bopping the bishop,

yanking the Yankee. You've got some interesting euphemisms. I think it's shaking hands with the Pope. Shaking hands with the Pope. But I mean, you can bop the bishop. But I didn't because the bathroom door was open. Well, I found a way. I could always find a way.

Were you actually like abiding by the rule? I'm sure you were abiding by the rules of the chart. I was a way. I could always find a way. Were you actually like abiding by the rule? I'm sure you were abiding by the rules of the chart. I was a rule follower. I mean, I'd put a star up there, but I didn't want to put as many stars as I needed to. You said you were lying. Well, we didn't have enough stars. And here I was being totally forthright.

And cause that's the only way I could feel good is if I was, if I remained pure. And the thing about purity as a word is it's, it's like a light switch. You either are, you aren't. You're either pure or you're not. It's an all in game. That's the problem with that word

is that there's no room for, there's no room for error or nuance. It's not a spectrum. You've either failed or you've succeeded. Well, it's like you got a spectrum. You've either failed or you've succeeded. Well, it's like you've got a bucket. You're either perfect or you're tainted. It's like there's no in between. There's two buckets, there's the purity bucket

and then there's the sin bucket. And all sin is sin before God and disqualifying in the same way. So if you have that sort of theological perspective, what ends up happening a lot of time is once you do start sinning, whether that's masturbation, looking at porn, messing around with your girlfriend,

once you're in the sin bucket, there's no longer a matter of degree. It's like, why am I going to stop doing this at this point? Because I'm in the sin bucket. This is all sin. I think that happens a lot of times because it's not a question of is this healthy or like is there, what is the net benefit of this behavior?

It's just is it wrong or is it right? And if it's wrong, you know, masturbation from a spiritual standpoint is no more wrong or no less wrong than just having full sexual intercourse with your girlfriend. Now I know that we- From a technical teaching standpoint, yes. We didn't really, no one really thought that because it's crazy to think that.

But technically, according to a theological viewpoint of sin, there is no difference. And so I experienced like becoming impure every time that I would take an action like that. What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic well for us I'm gonna guess for some of you that thing is anime hi I'm Nick Friedman I'm Lee Alec Murray and I'm Leah President and welcome to Crunchyroll presents the anime effect it's a weekly news show with the best celebrity guests

and hot takes galore. So join us every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Well, and the funny thing is, is that we're sitting here talking about girls not putting purse straps in between their boobs

and not putting the seatbelt on and wearing the right clothes, not showing cleavage, not wearing tight pants. Oh, don't wear the tight pants. In the meantime, I'm going to my computer and looking at just straight up boobs without a seatbelt. There's no seatbelt, no shirt, no purse strap. It's just boobs just in the air.

It's called porn. You should look into it. And the funny thing is is that it just, it kind of demonstrates- Where did you do this? We had a computer at home, but it wasn't ours. I would find a corner facing away from- In the computer lab?

Of course in the computer lab. Like I wouldn't do it in a way that anybody could see it because that's a weird situation. I would be alone and I would- You jerk off in the corner of the computer lab? I didn't jerk off in a way that anybody could see it because that's a weird situation. I would be alone and I would- You jerk off in the corner of the computer? I didn't jerk off in the computer, I looked at porn. What kind of person do you think I am?

I would look at the porn and I would take that thought with me to a bathroom. And then that's where I would do the deed. I'm not gonna fricking do that in public. I'm not a creep. A public restroom though? Cause the ones at home, we had to keep the door open. Okay, so are you telling me you didn't masturbate in college?

I don't think you should be questioning me, I think I should be questioning you. Are you telling me you didn't masturbate in college? I certainly did, yes. So what, did you go into a tent somewhere in the woods? It doesn't take me long, man. It terrifies me. I would have loved to have had the gumption to look at porn in the computer lab,

but it terrified me to the point where I would never do that. Well, I don't, and you know what? I may have done it and blocked it out of my mind, but. Where else? I didn't have a computer. Where else would I get porn? And again, it was.

I was trying really hard. I'm talking, I'm talking. You had a realistic approach and you- Late at night, there's maybe one other person in there, they're on the other side of the thing, I'm facing away. I mean, there's a wall behind me. I never got caught, no one ever saw me do it. So it wasn't like I was in this situation where like,

because again, I want to be very clear, people who like go to the library and like look at porn at the library where people can see them doing it, that's like basically sexual harassment, right? So I did not do this in a way, this was a completely private affair, but I just, there was the only computer that I had. And also, I'm not judging you for it.

Well, it sounded like it. I'm just, I was just giving you a hard time because I thought it was funny. What I, the reason why I didn't do it was because of the judgment, the wrath of God. Not the wrath of God, but just the temporary rejection until I got up the gumption to confess and clear the air with God.

Because I felt like I treated God very transactionally. All right, once I do anything wrong, I have to confess it in order to clear the air with God, because I felt like I treated God very transactionally. All right, once I do anything wrong, I have to confess it in order to clear the air and reestablish our active relationship and conversation. I believe that I couldn't have a conversation with God until I confess something that was standing in the way. And that was so much the focus, that was the main thing. And I just didn't want to do that.

I'd like to get into, this dovetails into the dating, but is there anything else you wanna hit before we get into my approach to that? Well, no, because I think, I mean, the last thing I'll say is that we were continuing to, because the thing I don't wanna, we're different people.

For the record, I don't think it's creepy that you were looking at porn in the computer lab. I think it's- Well, I'm sure some people do. I think it's funny, but- It sure some people do. I think it's funny, but- It was the only option. I understand why. The only thing that kept me from it was guilt. It wasn't anything else.

But I just wanna be clear about that. And I wanna be clear about the fact that I'm not saying I wasn't guilty. I'm not saying I wasn't incredibly ashamed of doing it. I'm just saying that my drive to look at it was something I could not control. I honestly got to, I could not, it was there, it was new, it was evolving.

Porn was evolving in crazy ways in the late 90s. Internet connections were evolving in crazy ways. And it was moving from pictures to video. Like the world, like today it's like all access, all the time, whatever you want. Back then it was, I was on like the front tier in one sense, you know, of like finding this new stuff. And it was irresistible, overwhelming, all consuming.

And in spite of that strong sort of compulsion, because I still was very serious about all this Christian stuff, I would say that over the course of a year in college, you could count on one hand, my right hand, the number of times that I would look at porn in the computer lab. So what I'm getting at is mostly it was a thought thing.

I didn't need porn. I count on my left hand, by the way. Which is weird. I needed more evidence that you're left-handed. But all I needed was the thoughts and the place to do it. So it was more of a thought life and a masturbation thing than it was a porn thing. But I'm just giving you an example of,

it was so all consuming that I would take that, it was still a risk. I mean, first of all, I'm like logged into my like school account. I don't know if they're tracking me. I don't know how this works. I didn't really care, right? I knew that a bunch of other dudes were doing it too.

So, but just to contextualize that. So I was kind of at the height of my purity and there were some, it's still doing these things. The only times I ever went without masturbating was two summer projects. Like I went on two extended, like six week summer projects or crusade, where it's like, you're just in this incredible

spiritual environment. And I went the whole time without jerking off and just felt like a king and it lasted about a week after that. Those are my two longest stints. I mean, you can look at the chart and tell what my longest stint was. I don't remember what it was, but my chart was truthful.

You were the only one, trust me. Yeah, such a one, such a rule follower. But my experience in high school and freshman year of dating and everything I talked about in the previous episode, again, it was so heartbreaking to break up on those terms and sent me into what I realized was a depression for most of, well, most of the first half of my sophomore year of college

because we broke up over the summer and then I was just kind of the aftermath of that. But I was determined and I was talking to my discipler and Bible study leader and more than we were talking. But I mean, again, we were putting in place these systems and we were listening to all these speakers, but I was talking to him as a mentor and just trying to figure out,

I don't wanna make the mistakes that I made. I wanna embrace everything from a rules and systems standpoint to protect my heart from having that type of heartbreak again. And I did not want to be dating somebody or fall in love with somebody and then have to make a decision between them and God. Because I knew obviously the right answer is

you have to choose God. You know, it was never a question in my mind. So I just didn't want to have to break up with my next girlfriend, which I anticipated would be really serious because of the way I was looking at it. And so that was my mindset. Also, I mean, in approaching dating

and thinking about it in terms of like finding a marriage partner, my whole, all of my dad's stuff came up too. Like my dad leaving my mom before I was around two years old and then just vowing to never make that mistake. Right. So, I wanted to do everything right. I desperately wanted to please God and be okay.

And I never read I Kissed Dating Goodbye, that book came out around this time, maybe a few years earlier, Joshua Harris, now he's not a Christian anymore and he's taking the book out of print because of how it reinforced purity culture. But I know that a lot of the principles from it, I ended up applying, even though I didn't read it.

Same deal, I didn't read it, but we knew all the principles and I was like, okay, I get it, I get it. You know, there were terms thrown around like, you wanna guard your heart, which I guess is what I'm describing from heartbreak. And you wanna protect whoever you're dating, you wanna guard their heart too,

because you wanna treat whoever you're dating, you wanna guard their heart too, because you wanna treat whoever you're dating in a way that preserves them for whoever they're gonna marry, if it's not you. And you wanna preserve yourself if it's not them. So the fall of sophomore year towards is when Christy and I met. And I wanted to start dating her. And I, so right from the beginning, I was like, all right,

I wanna be very methodical and slow paced about this. I want to be very calculated. Our first date was by design a group date. That was a thing. That was a thing. So your first date was a group date. It was great when. That was a thing. So your first date was a group date. It was great when your Bible study, your men's, again, these were not co-ed Bible studies,

InterVarsity, Scandalous, they would do that. Campus Crusade would never do that. So the men's Bible study would pick a women's Bible study and come up with like an elaborate way to ask them out on a group date. That's cute. My Bible study did that with some girls over at Peace College. Group dates do take off the pressure of a date in a way.

It's like, do I really like you? Do I really wanna have a one-on-one date? Of course with Christy, I certainly did. We went out on our second date, which was just the two of us. And then- Was there an elevator involved? There was-

You would have never done that. Yeah, I don't think there was an elevator. But I was, you know, she started getting involved in Campus Crusade. She came from a background of, she went to church her whole life, but it wasn't this like all encompassing, devout, crusade level thing that,

when she got involved in crusade, she didn't know half of what she was getting into about how devout we were and how devout I was. So when I would say, you know what, I only want us to talk on the phone once a week. We can kind of pick like a phone date and then maybe once a month we can go out on a date. Like early on in our relationship,

I was seeing things like that. Because I knew that like, if this really started to pick up steam, I was gonna have to start making these decisions about a physical relationship. And it was just really scary to start to flirt with going back to that battle that I had with my previous girlfriend.

I didn't wanna do that. And Christy's like, the way she characterizes it now, her perspective is like, it was strange. It was strange even within the, like I never questioned it at the time. I thought Link's a little odd, but I know you so much better now than I did then, which is the weird thing. And so-

Because I know myself that much better as well. And it was like- I didn't know why I was doing it. I supported- Deep down. I supported it because it felt like your particular application of the system that we were all sort of subscribing to,

but it never like, it never really registered with me just how strict of a system it was. We didn't hold hands. Seeing each other once a month. Yeah. That's, you couldn't see each other. For the first few months,

and then I think we started picking up steam. You saw her at the weekly meeting every week probably. But a date was started out once a month and then only talking on the phone once a week. And we didn't email each other and there was no text. That didn't happen. Text didn't exist. We didn't have cell phones. And as we started getting more serious,

and I guess it got to the point where you might start to feel like a normal couple would say that they love each other, is when I said, I just want you to know that my perspective on love, a normal couple would say that they love each other is when I said, I'm not, I just want you to know that my perspective on love, and this was kind of something I invented. This was not like a Bible teaching, but it was, again, I just wanted to take

the most devout stance I could. And I told her, I was like, listen, I'm not gonna tell anyone I'm dating that I love them until I know I want to be with them the rest of my life. So if you hear me say, I love you, it basically means, will you marry me? Right. And she was like, this is strange.

She didn't say that. That's in the book, by the way. Yeah, but what she said was- So you didn't really come up with it. What book? I Kissed Dating a Boy. Oh, it is? that. That's in the book, by the way. Yeah, but what she said was- So you didn't really come up with it. What book? I Kissed Dating a Boy. Oh, it is? See, I never read the book,

but I took all the principles from it through advice I was getting. I'm surprised I didn't read the book. But Christy was like, there was also something appealing about someone who was so devoted to God and devoted to her purity as well as my own.

That's what they were being, the women, that's what they were being told. This is the kind of guy you want. Yeah, that's what the women were being told in their breakout sessions and their conferences is that you want a man who is running towards the Lord with passion. So basically, because he's gonna be the spiritual leader,

he's gonna be in charge of your spiritual life, your children's spiritual life, the rest of your life. You gotta make this choice, you gotta get this right. Run towards God as hard as you can and then look to your left or right and see who's running with you and that's who you should be with. Yeah. Was another analogy.

But then kind of follow him a little bit. And yeah. And so I wanna do that. We didn't hold hands or really touch in all of our dating life. We knew we weren't gonna kiss. I think we talked about, we might wait until we get married to kiss.

We started dating that sophomore year. By the next summer, I went on a summer project for 10 to maybe it was 11 weeks in Santa Cruz. She was staying back home and I basically broke up with her because I said, you know, I wanna devote, I don't wanna have this long distance relationship thing going on, I want you to be able to devote yourself fully to God and not have to worry about me

and I wanna be able to do that in Santa Cruz too. Now I didn't date any other girls and we still talked. You dated God. I dated God, but we, and we still talked. We wrote letters to each other. And I think we did hop on the phone some. My granddad passed away in the middle of that. And I came home.

She met me. You were gone. You were also on Summer Project. I was on Summer Project. Like all of my close guy friends besides you. Not masturbating at all. Were also gone. And that was a very pivotal moment

in our dating relationship, even though we weren't technically dating, when she was there for me for the funeral and dealing with the grief of losing my granddad. And it really bonded us together. And we were both seeing in each other a devotion to God that was extremely attractive. And there was so much alignment.

Well, I came back from that summer and we dated more seriously, so much so that by the next summer, when she went on summer project without me to Santa Cruz, same place, even though there's lots of places she could have gone, we didn't break up. In fact, that was the summer when I was trying to figure out I wanna do the right thing, is she the right one?

God, give me a sign. And if not, I'm just gonna read all these books so I can write a dissertation on why we should be together. The moment she got home from Santa Cruz that night is when, even though I didn't have a ring, I got down on one knee in her parents' yard and proposed. And right after I proposed and she said yes, and I explained why I didn't have a ring,

but I promised I was gonna get one. Because your link. That's why you didn't have a ring. I was supposed to gonna get one. Because you're lank, that's why you didn't have a ring. I was supposed to propose two weeks from now, that was the agreement I had with your parents because they were gonna keep the secret but I couldn't keep the secret. Again, so much pent up.

Lot of pressure on yourself. Pressure. That she said yes, I stood up and that was the first time we kissed. How was it? Was after we got engaged. Tongue? Immediately. Definitely tongue. Wow, you went from not kissing,

not holding hands to tongue. It's like riding a bike. I mean, it all came back to me, but even better this time. But I wasn't like pedaling. I wasn't straddling her. But that did happen later. Which we'll talk about when we talk about our engagement. So yeah, I mean, throughout our whole dating,

I remember the first time we held hands, it was just like an emotional, I mean, I almost jizzed in my pants. Yeah, it didn't take much back then. Because yeah, when you're- I don't even think I could do that now. We were dating for months and months, and then like, when we held hands on the beach that day,

it was like sparks. And it was like a, I mean, it was like flames. It was amazingly hot. And that's kind of cool. Well, here's the thing. There's an aspect of this that like I could imagine, I don't read romance novels, my wife does. I could imagine a romance novel

that was basically based on this, like these two people committed to this ideology and they're super pure and then the moment they finally just let themselves hold hands. Like, yeah, there's something beautiful about waiting and then experiencing that. It makes that moment this electric moment. Now, that does not mean,

I'm not dismissing all the other shit that comes as a result of that way of thinking. But you can't argue with the fact that if you take two different perspectives, one perspective is sex is just a biological thing, it doesn't mean anything. As long as you have it protected, you should have it with whoever you want,

whenever you want, however you want. That's one end of the spectrum. And the other end of the spectrum is, this is the super sacred spiritual thing that has to be protected. It should only happen with one person in the certain context for the rest of your life. Well, in one of those scenarios,

the potential for the sexual experience or any sort of sexual contact or physical contact being electric and special and sort of like over the top overwhelming, it's gonna be the end of the spectrum where they put it on this pedestal. Just, that's just the way, it's the delayed gratification

sort of psychological thing, right? So you basically lived that. I lived my own version of that, which I'll explain when you're done with this part. I'm gonna stop right here at engagement and let you bring you, I wanna bring you up to engagement too, and then we can talk about what engagement was like,

because that was a whole year for me before we got married. So with you and Jesse. So when you were on Summer Project in 1998, trying to date God and not date Christy, I was trying to date God and not jerk off and successfully did so. Had never met Jessie, but I got back from that Summer Project and I had broken up with my pretty serious girlfriend

that I dated my freshman, sophomore-ish year of pretty long relationship, like freshman and half a sophomore. And she was a Christian as well. She wasn't in purity culture to the degree that I was, but I was, again, I wasn't good at not masturbating and not looking at porn, but I was really good at not doingating and not looking at porn, but I was really good

at not doing stuff like drawing the line, again, at the waist with my girlfriend. And so I was basically pretty pure in that regard, right? I had figured out some way to like manage myself in relationships, which often involves masturbating after dates. But I was not, I am not, compared to you, I'm not a systematic person.

Compared to the general population, yes. Compared to you, no. But I was committed to the whole deal. I was all in, I knew I was going to do my best and not have sex before I got married. I was buying into the principles of I guess dating a bi. I don't think I read the book. I think I might have gone to like a talk where they like,

I don't know, but I bought into the principles to a degree, understanding that the whole idea of like, once the physical relationship starts, it's gonna quickly move towards sex and like that only happens in marriage, so like just don't do that. In fact, don't even date. I was like, I kind of agree with that,

but I'm very much a broad strokes kind of guy. So I'm like, I get what you're going for. I think I can achieve it in my own way. Strokes. So I meet Jessie and I just think that she's wonderful and beautiful. And of course it was a slightly different time. She was a senior in high school at the time, okay?

So I basically was like, well, I'm not gonna date her because he's in high school, full stop. I'm not gonna date somebody who's in high school while I'm in college. So, but she's gonna be in college eventually and so I should at least maintain some level of friendship or contact. But basically the way I would sum up that year of her,

like her senior year in high school was maintaining a friendship from a distance. And then like, our families were connected. So it was kind of, it was not a dating relationship. Meaning they went to the same church. They went to the same church. They knew each other. And kind of knew each other.

And so there were like church events that I would kind of go home and I would talk to her and we would kind of like, we would hang out a little bit. These were essentially dates without calling them dates. And there was zero physical contact. I didn't even, I didn't open the door for her. I didn't do anything gentlemanly because I did not want to communicate

that this was a dating relationship. Not just because of my commitment to purity, but because it was like, she's in high school. I don't think I'm not gonna date somebody in high school. I'll be friends with this person. Yeah. But like I said, I knew that she was going to be in college the following year.

And so I go on my second summer project to Slovakia. I didn't masturbate in Europe. I mean, give me some kind of credit here. I mean, I went to Europe. Good job, good job. I get back from that time and I'm thinking to myself like, okay, she's gonna be in college, I'm in college. I think that she's amazing and great and beautiful.

And I want to basically begin a relationship with her. And what I ended up doing, again, we have been taught about like, you know, there are lots of acronyms in crew. One was DTR, which is defining the relationship. Oh yeah. And a lot of times, again, because of there's a very patriarchal under,

or if not over current to the whole way that evangelical Christianity works, especially in the late 90s. It was the guy's job to say. It was the guy's job to do it. This is what happening here. Yeah, the guy's job to say. It was the guy's job to do it. This is what's happening here. Yeah, the guy had to define the relationship. And basically it was almost like,

you just assume the girl's gonna go along with this. I don't even know what the thought was, but what I did is I got back from that knowing that I really liked her. And what I told her was, I really like you. Oh, actually, you know what? I'm sorry, I'm getting my timeline confused. I told her this before I went on Summer Project.

And this is how I managed the whole she's in high school thing, is I was basically like, I like you, I will let you know when I am ready for a relationship or something crazy like that. I'm sure she loved that. And here's the thing about Jessie is that, yes, she came from a Christian family

and a church background and she was super committed, super committed Christian, but she hadn't really bought into the I kiss, dating, goodbye and the purity culture thing yet, mostly because she hadn't gotten involved in like a group like crew yet. And also she's a little bit, she has a rebellious streak. If you start telling her too many things,

she's gonna be like, well, let's question this. And she at the time was like offended by that as she should have been and be like, what? It's your job to tell me when you're ready for a relationship? Well, I'll tell you when I'm ready for a relationship. But we maintain this sort of like friendly banter. When I got back from Summer Project and I said,

I'm ready for my relationship. She was like, well, that's not how it works. Yes. I'm not ready for the relationship. Now, the fact is is that we were crazy about each other and she was ready for the relationship, but she was bristling at the idea of the dude just comes back and just declares that he is available for the relationship

and it automatically starts. We waited a couple of weeks and then we were in a relationship. But the funny thing that happened was is that, and she's gonna be better at remembering the specific timeline and we do, and they will be on the next episode. I don't know if we'll discuss this,

but Jesse and Chrissy are joining us for the next episode. I remember distinctly what happened was, is I'm trying to be this, but Jesse and Chrissy are joining us for the next episode. I remember distinctly what happened was, as I'm trying to be this professional Christian dude, and I'm really, really trying hard to be pure in both appearance and in the way I'm conducting this relationship. And so there was still no physical contact. I think there was a couple of hand holding things

that had happened, but literally just like a hand holding. You know, I didn't have like the specific standard that you did, I'm gonna wait to hold hands. But I was like, I'm gonna play this by ear, but I know I'm not anywhere near kissing her at this point. And I was over at her house after church and there was a bunch of, there's other people at her house and like I could tell that something was wrong with her

and like we kind of go into this room together, just the two of us in a room. Can you believe that I was willing to do that? We even shut the door. She seemed upset. I said, what is wrong? And she was kind of articulating that like, you're not acting like you're interested in me.

Like you're not sending any signals that you're interested in me. Like you obviously wanna hang out with me. We have great conversation. We make each other laugh. We're obviously into each other intellectually and I believe physically, but there's no indication of that. You're not doing anything.

And so she was sitting next to me and I was like, what do you need? And I put my hand on her. You grabbed her forearm? Her forearm. Okay. And she said, more of that. She liked the forearm touching, huh?

And so at that point. Yeah, it was, I mean, yeah, keeping physical out of it and not explaining why is extremely confusing. Well, let me tell you what happened. When she said more of that, all the standards went out the window and she ended up. What?

I kind of just grabbed her and she crawled up and sat in my lap where I'm sitting down on the floor of this room. She's sitting on my lap and we just embraced. I didn't kiss her, which is freaking weird, but I just kissed her and we just held each other. You just said you kissed her. I didn't kiss her.

Okay. Sorry, I did not kiss her. I didn't kiss her, which is weird. Yes. To like just embrace somebody and just like hold them and like feel what it feels like to be physically connected to another human that you're physically attracted to, which is totally normal.

Yeah. But it was like electric. It was intoxicating. It was over the top. And that was the beginning of us like kind of officially being in a relationship. Now- And then you started, I mean, if you hadn't,

you started explaining why you're not kissing her. Well, yeah, I think she already knew, but she thought it was kind of weird to be like, why are you drawing the line at this place? And like, it's like, let's just, you know, I don't- Or did you kiss? So that was in the fall at this place? And like, it's like, let's just, you know, I don't, she's- Or did you kiss? So that was in the fall. And it wasn't until, like, we basically had this relationship

that was just like lots of hand, like you can make handholding super intense. Oh yeah, there's 10 fingers, you know? Yeah, and there's lots of configurations. Like you could do this, you could do the interlocking, you can just do the open palm and just grab like that. You could do the little pinky swear technique. Christine and I have this thing

that's like the pinky and the index finger and that's how we hold hands to this day. It's like we invented that. But yeah, so there's like a savoring, there's like a meditative nature to, I think there's a form of sexual yoga where you deny yourself and like- There is.

We need someone involved in this. We were kind of, I think we were kind of like inventing the Christian handholding version of that. Quite possibly. That continued for several months. Actually went all the way from the fall to, I remember there was for Valentine's Day.

Now the previous year, there had been a Valentine's Day banquet at her dad's like office, like in upstairs in his office in Fuquay, there's like the nicer like banquet area. Yeah. Grace Community had a Valentine's Day banquet and I didn't wanna go to her with it

because she was in high school and it was weird, but like all of our families wanted us to go. Like my family, her family, everybody thought that we should go to this thing together, but I was afraid to ask her because I thought it was weird. This is back in time, by the way, but go ahead. Yeah, I'm going back to her senior year in high school.

And then what ends up happening is like the night before, I'm like, hey, you wanna go to the Valentine's Day Bakeout? Cause I felt like kind of pressured and I wanted to go, but I didn't wanna make it seem like a big deal. I'm trying to navigate this weird world where I'm trying not to be in a relationship and also really wanna be in one. She said, I think, yeah, she said yes and we went,

but it was weird and she was kind of mad at me. So a year later during Valentine's Day, I had this idea to basically redo the Valentine's Day banquet just for us. And you know, my mom and her mom basically created like this meal and like made it look like it was a banquet and we both dressed up and we just sat up there and ate a meal together and then we like,

we had music and we started dancing. And it was, and during that dance. You had clothes on sex. No, I was like, I'm kissing her, man. I mean, I'm not, this is stupid. This is stupid. That Josh Harris stuff is stupid. So this was your first kiss?

And I kissed her and we kissed for a long time. You know how it is, like when you haven't kissed somebody and you've been holding yourself back, like you kissed to your like lips are raw, you know? And it was intense, it was awesome. And it basically, that was the beginning of us just kissing a lot, kissing a lot. I don't think you talked to me about it that much

because it just made me mad that like somehow you were okay with this, but I couldn't, I had set my standard and now, and made my commitments to myself and explained those to Christy and like gotten her on board with it that then it was like, I can't go back on my own standards, then I become a hypocrite.

But it was an expression of our- And I was jealous. Our different personalities interacting with the same ideology and system. Yes. I was gonna navigate it in a way that kept me from the thing that I was like, what is the thing that we're really trying to keep ourselves from?

I'm gonna keep us- The wiener out of the vagina. I'm gonna keep that, and again, I'm like, I'm not going below the waist. I kind of still had that standard. And also I didn't, we didn't end up, I didn't even mess with the boobies. I was like, that was a little, I was more righteous. There was just a lot of kissing that happened.

But then the lust that's happening in your head and heart, I guess, is something that's grounds for confession. Do you recall having a similar experience to me in how you took all of this back to God in like prayer life or journal life? I completely separated the two. I thought that what was happening in my thought life and the sort of like continuing to masturbate,

that was sinful and that was like me letting God down. I felt zero guilt about making out with Jessie. Yeah. Because I was like, I was like, this is natural, this is normal and I'm, and like, this is natural, this is normal. And we're actually controlling ourselves really, really well. Yeah, and I didn't think kissing was wrong.

I just didn't want to get myself back into a situation where then we had to break up. Yeah, yeah. So once we got engaged and we kissed, I'll have to ask Christy, I don't know if we knew, well, I told her that I loved her and then she knew that this was the proposal because I followed through on that.

When I got down on one knee, I had this speech, I said, I love you and then I hit one knee. So before I hit the knee, she knew what was happening because I said I loved her. I can't remember if she expected us to make out, but I bet you we talked about that too. No, I don't think we did because it was a total surprise that I was gonna propose to her and me and her parents.

So I'll have to ask her, but most likely our first kiss was like yours, a spontaneous expression of exaltation. It was amazing. And again, there's a lot, you can, and many Christian couples know this, kissing can go a long way. Like if you have made this commitment to not do anything else but kiss,

like you can explore the depths of kissing and it can be kind of a beautiful thing. But it is frustrating, but I, you know, there was a couple of factors and I think this applies to both of us, is that we were not at the same school. I mean, Christy was close by, but like Jesse was at Carolina, I was at State.

Christy was at Meredith, you were at State. Yeah, we had to have dates in order to meet up. I was busy, I was doing stuff all the time. So were you, so was Jessie. So I would go and see her on the weekends, we'd have like a date. We would date like, we would hang out like Friday, we'd hang out again Saturday.

And then a lot of times we would go back home and kind of hang out at her parents' house on Sunday. But you're saying that from a physical relationship. Limited opportunity. It tempered it. It made it where it's like, I feel like we can get through this. And I was, I mean, once February rolled around

and I was making out with her, I was like, I know that I'm gonna marry this girl. And she probably thinks that as well. But she's a freaking freshman in college. I'm a, what was I, a junior at the time? Yeah. But fast forward for me, I went on the second summer project.

Well, I get confused. Oh no, when I went on this, I'm very confused because I think when I came back, no, it wasn't, it was- When did you get engaged? It was the- Start with that. I got engaged after her freshman year. So basically like we're making out in February and then in,

whenever it was, I don't remember when, she went, I stayed at home, she went to Summer Project between her freshman and sophomore year. She came out to LA and was on Summer Project. When she got back from Summer Project, I'd gotten the ring, I'd talked to her dad, I asked her to marry me, she said yes,

and we were engaged for her sophomore year in college, and then we got married before her junior year in college. So we had a short engagement, and that entire, well, I've called up to the point of engagement. Your engagement was half as long as mine. Once Christy and I started- You were engaged for more than a year? Yeah, she got back, well, it was the end of summer

we got engaged and then when we graduated, that was our senior year, when we graduated, we got engaged, we got married at the end of May 27th. So that's one year. Yeah. And so we were engaged for one year as well. Oh, okay, well, that's a long time when now you've lit the fuse, which is starting to make out

that leads to the atomic bomb of sexual intercourse. That is an analogy that I said in a talk to younger college students about why I decided not to kiss because it made it so hard to just not go all the way once you're in a make-out session. I mean, and then Christy and I really discovered that. It was like, we had so much pent up attraction and physical hopes for each other

that once we started making out, over the course of our engagement, I knew that we weren't gonna have sex. Like we just cannot have sex, even though it's just, isn't it just a formality? No, I cannot allow myself to have those thoughts. Like I wanna prove to her that I'm the man that she needs to marry.

Like I gotta stay strong. But I mean, once you start making out, then your bodies have a way of aligning. And even if you're fully clothed, your bodies have a way of wanting to make sex happen even if you're not willing to take your clothes off. You know what I'm saying? I'm talking about a little gene grinding.

Yep, you're talking about dry humping. I'm talking about dry humping. And you've gotta be strategic about what clothes you wear on a date if you think that's gonna happen. Don't wear gray sweatpants. But that's premeditative, you know? Wear something dark.

But I was thinking I need to wear like a suit of armor. Yeah, right. Like, what am I gonna do here? Underwear made out of Kevlar. And it was tough. I mean, we would, so we would like, okay, we're only gonna go out on dates in public. We're not gonna come back to my apartment

and lay down on my bed and make out anymore. There's lots of laying down and making out, which is, well, that's trouble. Don't get horizontal. These are all things that like your parents would like put rules if you were dating somebody in like high school, maybe middle school. But like, so like, I was just having a lot of that experience

and we were developing rules ourselves. Like, okay, let was just having a lot of that experience and we were developing rules ourselves. Like, okay, let's just have a picnic out here in the middle of this park. There's no way we'll start humping each other here in this park, will we? Well, yes, there is. In the broad freaking daylight. It was crazy, man.

Well, I remember one time- I mean, it was so difficult. There was, oh man, we should have eloped. Well, I remember one time. I mean, it was so difficult. There was, oh man, we should have eloped. Well, I remember one time. It was crazy. Talking about being horizontal. We were at Jessie's parents' place down at the beach and her granddad, Papa, may he rest in peace, was there.

And he kind of came in to the basement where we were and we were lying down on the couch watching a movie together with a blanket over us. And again, as I'll explain, we stayed pretty pure. I'll tell you exactly how pure we stayed in a second. But at that time, all we're doing is just basically like laying down together and making out. And there might be some incidental boob contact,

but there's no like unbuttoning the shirt and stuff. It was just like, I was being freaking good, man. Cause I was like, listen, I've got a lifetime of sex just around the corner when we get married in June. And so I'm just gonna respect her, respect myself and get through this. But Papa comes in, he's like, what are y'all doing?

And Jessie was like, we're, oh, I set the story up wrong. It was the morning and we were down there laying down together in the morning. Okay. And then he comes in and you can see the look on his face and Jesse says, Papa, we weren't down here all night. And he was like, it doesn't take all night and just shuts the door and walks out.

Yeah, it could happen in a second. Yeah, right. Especially when you're Especially at that age. Really geared up. Yeah. Geared up to go. But this is the interesting thing about you and Christy because you had been so good. You had been so much better than me.

Like better being more pure. Jessie and I had been making out. And then during the engagement we made out, I think there was a dry humping session that ended in the usual way. It's much better for the man, let's just be honest. And there was some incidental, maybe some purposeful intentional boob contact

at some point, I can't really remember, but we basically did not get into any, let's say heavy petting situations, and there was really no actual sexual contact until our wedding night, which we'll talk about next time. But you guys, my impression from you was that you were like the dry hump kings, king and queen. Like that dry humping became, hmm,

became sort of the go-to for y'all. It was never anything that we just embraced and said, this is something that we're gonna do and this is okay. It was always something that just ended up happening. And then it was like, oh God, it's like, we just can't keep happening. But let's put more rules in place.

How bad did you feel? So that it won't happen. How bad did you feel? I didn't- Well, there was chafing. I mean, it was like, again, you gotta be wearing the right stuff. Yeah, right. I mean- Lots can go wrong. You can probably injure yourself.

Like- It's not, let me just say, we do not recommend dry humping. I do, it's horrible. It really is horrible. It's stupid. Well, it's actually pretty amazing if it's the only thing you're doing. If you're wearing, I mean,

I hadn't played soccer in many years, but I did find my old umbro shorts. Yeah, umbros, might as well not even be there. I'm telling you, man. That's, if you're gonna- That should be umbro's slogan. Good for soccer, also for dry humping. Good for soccer, great for dry humping.

I was, I'm sure I was confessing that to God. But you didn't feel that bad about it. It was a lack of self control. But it was just like- You were gonna get married, man. Yeah, it was just a lack of self control. But it was just like- You were gonna get married, man. Yeah, it was just, let's just get there. Let's just get to marriage. Let's get it over with.

Let's get on with it. This is torturous. I mean, I remember lying there alone in the weeks leading up to my wedding night. And again, I've already stated on the record that the best reason for me believing in the existence of God is the vagina, which yes, I know the vulva,

thank you for correcting me, those of you who did. I'm speaking colloquially, I can't say the word. But I'm lying there in bed thinking about the fact that I'm going to get to experience this stuff that I've been thinking about my entire life. Yeah. Which first of all is just one of the things that I've since thought about is just how much like pressure

I've since thought about is just how much like pressure that puts on Jessie to be like, cause again, I had not communicated with Kander, the level of struggle and the level of intensity and the level of desire. That wasn't even something that I really got into until after our deconstruction, to be honest with you, because I just didn't think that her mind was ready to understand just how my mind worked.

I was still ashamed. Yeah, I mean, and I think it bears talking about for a second that like all of the teaching, it's the split sessions with guys being taught one thing and like talking about the intricacies of how not to masturbate and then whatever the girls talked about in terms of like protecting their heart

and like being a lady in waiting, they had their own book that was just about them being the spiritual princesses. I didn't read the book. I know Christy did. But just think about that lady in waiting. Yes. She's waiting.

And also like keeping guys from sin in the meantime, but there was this disconnect, but where girls got this impression that guys were animals, but that if they could rise above that, they could be spiritual powerhouses and leaders. But it was, I think it was taught as a dichotomy. You can either be in the flesh or you can be in the spirit and you want a guy who is so devoted to God

that he's not addicted to porn or he's not this and he's not that and all these things that, you know, I guess my point is they, I think women could get this impression that guys are either really holy or really base, but we can actually be both at the same time. And a lot of that stuff that it's like, you gotta protect them from themselves because they're animals

and they need to shed that skin, so to speak. It leaves this impression that like a lot of things, a lot of these natural desires that men have, and by the way, women don't have them, question mark, meaning as a woman, you shouldn't have them. You're speaking from the ideology, not from- From the ideology. It leaves women in a place in this environment

where they might think that guys, they're either dogs or they've risen above it, but there's not something where they're actually, this is a natural part of who people are, men and women, everybody, sexuality and desire and women, everybody. Sexuality and desire and pleasure, these are not bad things that are innately wrong. But that whole setup. But it's like holding guys to this high standard

that like you can't, it doesn't give us as guys permission to acknowledge that not only do we have struggles, but we have desires and we have sensations and we have things are happening that are okay for us. You know what I'm trying to say? I do. Like you felt like you couldn't talk about certain things

until after your deconstruction about level of desire because it was associated with sin. And it takes a lot of time to deconstruct that too. That desire and sexuality. I'm still deconstructing. Yeah, yeah, and me too. Well, yeah, what I'm- So it's like if you admit to a little something

to your partner, if you've both been very holy, it's like this extreme shock. It's an extreme shock. Right, and I think that we had been taught that, like the assumption for all the guys is that, of course you're being tempted to look at porn, of course you're being tempted to masturbate because those are the natural desires of a man.

The women were not getting those talks because the assumption in baked into the ideology is that the sexual desire is really not coming from the woman. She's not, she doesn't want it as much, you know? And so, I don't think that's true. I'm just saying that that's kind of what was baked into it. That's why they weren't talking about masturbation. Well, what's true is you cannot make a blanket statement

about that period. Well, Christians's true is you cannot make a blanket statement about that, period. Well, Christians, at least where we come from, that's what you did. You put everybody into a room and said, you're all this way and we're gonna talk to you as if you're one unit. Yeah. And just ignore any sort of complicating things

that don't fit this binary. But what I'm really getting to is the fact that it sets up the wedding night to be this thing where- A consummation, a culmination. Well, specifically the man is doing something to the woman. Do you know what I'm saying? Like this man has all this pent up stuff. It isn't that the woman doesn't have desire,

but it's just like the man finally gets to do sex to the woman. I'm not saying I was thinking that specifically, and I definitely wasn't stating that, and as we'll talk about, I mean, the wedding night and our sexual relationship and marriage has been beautiful. Don't give it away, don't give it away. But what I'm getting at is the fact that like all the stuff

that had been put on into my brain going into this situation was like, I'm finally getting to do this thing that I've been freaking thinking about all my life. And it was so strong and so intense that it gets to a place where almost unintentionally, I'm expecting Jesse to serve this particular role of being the person that I get to have sex with. Does that make sense?

Mm-hmm. Which puts this incredible pressure on someone versus it being this like, this is our relationship being consummated and this is us both kind of having our desires fulfilled, which we'll talk all about that in the next episode. But going in with this idea that like, I got this overwhelming desire

that I finally get to unleash on this woman. Like it's kind of a sick way to think about it. Do you know what I'm saying? And it wasn't a conscious thing. Yeah. It was the subconscious, all the stuff that had been put on me that I was bringing into that situation. I think that it is a reason why,

you know, we joke out here, we're like, how old are you guys? How old are your kids? You got a kid going off to college? What, at your age? It's like, and we're like, we were on the North Carolina timeline. Really, we're talking about this, like specifically.

It's, I mean, it's not just a Bible belt evangelical thing, but it very much was that as well. You know, this pent up desire accelerates getting married. It just does. this pent up desire accelerates getting married. It just does. Because you get to a point where you just, you gotta unload, man. That drive was not by any means the only drive to get married, but it became, it was a factor.

If you're a Christian, if you're evangelical Christian and you subscribe to the idea that sex can only be had in the context of marriage, then- And you want sex, then you're gonna want marriage. But the person that you are dating, when you graduate from college, there is a very, very high, statistically speaking, chance that you're going to marry that person

because of circumstance. Now, we got lucky. We got real lucky. Some of our close friends got real lucky. Still, they married the right people, they're in great marriages. But a lot of people, because it's so circumstantial, get into that marriage and then realize that,

oh, we got into this marriage because of all the circumstances that were driving us to get married. Not because I knew what I wanted in a person. Do you know what I'm saying? And so that's what, again, we dodge the- That's one thing that's a little treacherous, we dodge that bullet. We dodge that bullet.

Oh, hell yeah, we did. Another thing is, were there other people in our friend group or in the movement that were more devout than we were? I believe that there were. We weren't close with them, but they were certainly out there. There were people all across the purity movement,

there are definitely people who didn't have any physical contact before they got married. And we're gonna tell our story of losing our virginity, which is not a thing, but we're gonna tell the story of that not a thing of first time we had sex on our wedding night, we're gonna bring our wives in, we're gonna let them call in, we're gonna let them. We're gonna-

We're going to lead them into calling in. We're gonna invite Christy and Jesse to call in and weigh in on that topic and some other topics. We gotta figure out exactly what those are. But I don't, and I don't wanna give too much away about that but the fact that like we did have a physical relationship that kind of ramped up into it, had an impact on our experience,

a positive impact on our experience. And I've heard enough stories and that people who were just like completely locked off, like basically virtual chastity belt everywhere. Like no physical contact until marriage. And it's like, I mean, it could really blow up in your face on your wedding night. Again, I'm not speaking from experience,

but I'm speaking from anecdotal evidence here. It is not uncommon. It is not uncommon for people in sort of a purity movement who actually are closeted gay and they don't even know that they're gay. Who see the purity movement and the way that it's approached and then not having to have physical contact with this person of the opposite sex

who you are quote unquote supposed to marry. Yeah. As a sort of a salvation. And they also see that person as a potentially salvation out of this thing that they're kind of, is really tamped down. And then- Or it may just be false confirmation

that they're straight. Super pure. And that they're super pure. Right, what I'm getting at is there is a phenomenon that is not uncommon for someone who is actually gay and he's either not dealt with it and not realized it yet because it's been so suppressed because of the culture that they're in and like a really conservative culture

that they get into, there's a salvation in a purity obsessed relationship because they're like, I'm actually not attracted to this person, but I'm confusing that with just the ability to remain pure. And then having no physical contact because of quote unquote being pure, they get married and then very quickly realize,

oh, I'm actually gay. And then those marriages, of course, either they fall apart or, so it's like, again, I've seen that happen quite a bit actually. And so it's just one of the pitfalls of being like, we're not gonna have, there's no physical relationship at all up until the point of marriage.

Well, you're highlighting, I mean, you could describe our stories in this episode as stunted development sexually. I mean, I could see how you might have that perspective. Just not understanding yourself and what, like if you were never given permission, whether you're a guy or girl or whatever, to masturbate, then you're, and you never did,

then you really, there's a whole world of yourself that you do not understand that then you don't, and that's disempower That then you don't, and that's disempowering when you don't, when you're not in control of your own body and your own pleasure. That when you don't have that autonomy and you don't have that understanding, it's an aspect of personal development

that could be stunted. And then you're playing catch up. You know, it's different than being a light bloomer, than being a totally suppressing a natural, beautiful aspect of being human. Yeah. And it can have extremely damaging ripple effects in your relationships.

And again, I think the thing that may get missed as we talk about this, just because it's not our experience is that as you'll see, while there is baggage and there are things that we've dealt with and there are these negative repercussions, in large part, we dodged a lot of the pitfalls of purity culture. That's not an endorsement of it.

Again, if you subscribe to thinking of it this way, then you could use us in our particular cases as a support for your argument. We're not here, that's not what we're doing. We're telling our story. But I think that specifically with what you're talking about right now with this whole not getting comfortable with your own body,

again, is something that the burden falls so heavily on the women in the Christian world or the conservative evangelical Christian world, because, and again, this may have changed somewhat. I haven't been in that world for a long time now. So I don't know what they're talking to college students about in crew, for instance. It's been 20 years since they were doing it for us,

more than 20 years. Yeah. But at the time what was happening is, we're not talking about masturbation, we're not talking about porn with women. And so you've got a bunch of women who, their view of their own sexual empowerment and understanding their own body,

they bring it into the marriage and they're coming into the marriage with this thought of like, oh, my job is to serve and pleasure my husband. The husband is coming into the marriage thinking, my job, I'm the one who's really sex obsessed. And, you know, and even the books that are written about it and the talks that are given, it's just like, it sets up this dichotomy where the men are the ones who's really sex obsessed. And even the books that are written about it and the talks that are given,

it's just like it sets up this dichotomy where the men are the ones who are really horny and wanna have sex and the women are the ones who let the men have sex when they want to, when they're not tired or whatever. And talk about stunting. Think about all the women. We were obviously stunted,

but think about the women who have been stunted in not being able or being free to explore their own sexuality. Which is, I think even more complex for a woman than it is for a man in some ways. But yet it's like, I mean, you said, one of the first things you said in episode one was you just out of context, you said female orgasm.

But we'll talk about female orgasms in the next episode. But I think that that alone- Hell, we may even have one. But I think that that's the perfect example of like, you know, okay, you know, spoiler alert, there was one orgasm on my wedding night and it wasn't a female one. All right, you wanna come back next episode?

Well, there was more than one actually, but they were all for me. Yeah, I think I'm looking forward to the next conversation. In the meantime, you got a rec for them? I do, again, a completely out of context left turn rec. I have discovered recently that my favorite type of fiction is near term post-apocalyptic fiction

that follows one protagonist who usually has a dog. Okay. I'm a big fan of a book called The Dog Stars. Can't remember who wrote that, Peter something, but that's not what I'm recommending, so it doesn't matter. I found- Hold on, you gotta, okay. You can't double up.

The Dog Stars. It's against the rules. But the one that I'm really recommending, it's funny, because I realized that I liked this genre, and then I found a book called A Boy and His Dog at the End of the World. And I was like, this is got it all. There you go. This is got it all. I mean, it's about a boy with a dog, and this at the End of the World. And I was like, this is got it all. There you go. This is got it all. I mean, it's about a boy with a dog

and this is the end of the world. Is it though? It's by, what's his name, C.A. Fletcher. He actually wrote this as, well, C.A. Fletcher, there's Charlie Fletcher. This dude's like a prolific writer, screenwriter. Know nothing about him. I just know that I really like this book.

And I think that you will. His titles are very explanatory. At least this one is, A Boy and His Dog at the End of the World. If you're into the stuff that I just described. You listening to it or reading it? Yeah, I'm a listener, man. How's the narration?

It's good, it's good, it's good. All right, it's good, it's good. Hashtag Ear Biscuits, if you have any sex questions, go ahead and let us have it for episode after next.