Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - The Truth Behind Rhett & Link’s Origin Story | Ear Biscuits Ep.321

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

In the first part of a new series about their friendship over the years, Rhett and Link reveal the real story of how they met and became lifelong friends, and it’s not what you’ve heard all these years. They discuss their very first impressions of each other, how they used humor to connect & how their town was divided by 2 different churches. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance.

Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong friends talk about life for a long time. I'm Link. And I'm Rhett. This week at the round table of dim lighting,

we are beginning what we're considering a series, not a week, week after week series, but a series that we're going to be revisiting throughout the year, maybe years, but starting now, called Our Friendship Throughout the Years. And we're starting today by talking about our friendship in elementary school. Yeah. The very beginnings.

I'm excited about this because I mean, at this table, we've shared many memories. It is a table. Over the episodes, over the years of our shared experiences since meeting in first grade. But I think this is gonna unearth some new stories and it's a new lens through which to kind of look at all of our memories,

specifically the nature of our friendship. You know, I think that there's kind of this oversimplification of the story of, hey, we've been best friends since first grade. And you just kind of, you picture us just kind of going through life together. But when you start to dig into the specifics of it, again, there's lots of memories

that maybe we haven't accessed or told, but there's nuances to our friendship and it definitely has evolved over time and it's changed with each phase. Yeah, so we'll be talking about, you know, our first perceptions of each other. We'll be talking, I'm most excited about giving you the as true as possible version of that first day

that we met and the story that we have told that has become such a part of how we introduce ourselves to people and in interviews and stuff like that. But I think that in the further back you go, so this is as far back as we can go to the elementary school years, the more that we kind of gloss over things because it's like, I mean, who is interested in,

there hasn't been an occasion for anyone to be like, let's talk about that in more detail. And so this is stuff that we haven't even really talked, a lot of this is stuff we haven't talked about together that we've never even reflected on. Yeah. Because this is the challenge with us is we've been through so much together

and we've talked about so much of it that we start having to find new ways. If we want to go back and access old memories, find new ways to talk about it and find new memories to explore. So this is a new sort of rubric? I don't use that word very often. Oh yeah, okay, let's use it. If at all.

Rubrics cube? Nope, it's not a cube. I'm gonna open up Rubrics Cube and talk about what I used to think about Lincoln. But the plan is, yeah, every, I don't know, every month, every six weeks or so, we'll pick up where we left off and look at our friendship through the next phase.

You know, middle school, high school, college. Young and married. Yeah, young and married, young and wild. And then we get to old and wise, or old and whatever we are at this point. Eventually it'll just be us talking about our current friendship. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

I think every phase will be juicy, but let's start with something really juicy. Oh man. I question whether we should even do this. Yeah, we did discuss, but whether we should get into this, but you know what? I feel like this is, I mean, it's dimly lit for a reason. There's a bit of a secretive trust exercise going here.

So you're in the inner circle. You're telling don't tell anyone? You're telling anyone who's listening to not tell anyone? I feel like this is a special space where things are discussed that, hey, if you're into that, you're here for it. And if you're not, you're missing out. So once we go through this thing,

I do wanna talk about the stipulations within which we handle the information that we've put out there now, okay? Okay. As a group, as a collective. But we've mythologized our first meeting so much over the years that I think, well, we've decided that we're gonna scrutinize this story.

Like as if we were a detective. Yeah, so- If we were a police detective who was trying to like uncover what actually happened. So first let's tell the story. Now we could also sing the story because at some point we wrote a song. I actually think writing that song contributed

to some of the simplification. So here's how it goes. Every single interview, even to this day, next week if we have an interview with somebody for a publication, we will say. On the first day of first grade, we were both held in from recess for writing nasty words on our desks.

I wrote, hell. And I wrote, damn And I wrote damn. I'm not really sure who says what. Yeah, sometimes we don't say that. Yeah. I'm gonna say, yeah, and that's when we met, our teacher, Ms. Locklear, held us in from recess

and made us, let's just say it together, colored pictures of mythical beasts. And that's when we hit it off. And that's why our company is called Mythical and that's why everything we do is called something mythical. And that's why our company is called Mythical and that's why everything we do is called something Mythical. And that's why our fans call themselves Mythical Beasts. Yes. Because of that origin story.

And you know what? We've been best friends ever since. You don't want to ruin it for everybody, do you? Here's the thing, when we started talking about this recently, you, okay, I'm gonna say something that I believe is true about you. And that is you have an uncanny ability to look back on something and change the detail

and then believe it to be true and just bypass the whole like, this is probably not exactly what happened. Like, because there's lots of things that you've said, and I'm like, but you know, that's actually not, like that's actually not true, right? That's the way that you've said and I'm like, but you know that's actually not true, right? That's the way that you've categorized it and smoothed it out in your mind.

I've always had feelings about this story. Let's analyze it and then explain it. Okay. Yes, you're onto something. You're onto something. So let's just break it apart. We did meet and first of all, we have not discussed this at length.

It's not like we're about to confess something to you that we've concluded that we've been lying to you. This is a legitimate exercise right now in your presence of us analyzing this mythologized story. So we certainly met- I have analyzed it on my own a few times. We certainly met in first grade. In Ms. Locklear's class in 1984 in Buies Creek.

And we were certainly both there the first day. We were definitely both there the first day. Now, I'm gonna go back to what I remember. I'm gonna try to get back to what I actually remember. I remember both of us getting in trouble and I remember both of us being held in from recess and I remember both of us coloring pictures. And I know-

And judge and looking at how you were coloring and making a judgment about it. Very, an early accounts of that story included the memory from me of, again, now I'm just remembering the remembering of the memories, which is what humans do anyway. This is not just me. Well, but I'm going back to what I think are core,

because a couple of things. Okay, a core memory. But there's a couple of things about that that I'll get into in a second. I remember Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox. Like there was a point when I accessed that as what I believe to be a core memory of what we were coloring or I was coloring. Now that memory came from you.

Yes. The fact that it was from, it was Paul Bunyan. Yeah. Because I don't remember what we were coloring. And so I don't have an opinion about that. Here's what I believe to, if you put me up against the wall, here's what I believe. I don't think it was the first day of first grade, okay?

I don't think that we were, I don't think we got in trouble on the first day of first grade. It sounds like a simplification. I think what happened was, it's safe to say that we met in some form because in some form you meet everybody in your class on the first day of first grade.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's when you moved from California. I was there in kindergarten, you weren't. You know, so I remember- We met on the first day of first grade, but then at some point we both got in trouble. Well, I know we both got in trouble because, back in the day they used to give the numbers on conduct

and it was the higher the number, the worse it was. And if it was a four was the worst and I always got fours. But the reason I always got fours. You were talkative. Is because I just wouldn't shut up. Self-control. I find it hard to believe. I got good hygiene.

That I, yeah. They used to rank your hygiene. Hygiene was on your report card. Yeah. I'm sure I did great on that. Yeah, I wanna talk about that a little bit. I find it hard to believe that I was talkative and boisterous at that age because I was,

when I access my feelings from that time, thank you therapy, I access a lot of timidity and early anxiety. So- It didn't manifest itself. We'll talk about first impressions. Me becoming a cut up and a class clown was later. If I had to bet, and part of this is influenced by the fact that when we met Ms. Locklear,

when we tracked her down for our documentary looking for Ms. Locklear, which you should watch, even though, yes, you know, we found her, the spoiler is still worth it. It's only an hour long. She told us, and this was not captured in the documentary. It was captured, but we didn't, I think we didn't put it in the edit.

Yeah, we edited it out. She was like, now- We weren't comfortable then like we are now. And just thinking honestly. And at no point had I thought that the thing about being held in from recess together was made up. No. But she said, I really doubt that I held y'all

in from recess because I've never done that as a punishment. And we were like, well. We're gonna edit this out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This ain't going in our documentary. But I was like, but I know, but like I believe that to be true. Like, yeah.

And that was a, there's memories pre being a, nasty word, public figure. Like, you know, when you have to like answer questions by people, reporters and stuff like that, or you're simplifying things and you're, you're an entertainment act. At that point, all bets are off. You're gonna like massage things

and you're gonna tell the big fish story and the story is gonna be this big. But back before when I was just remembering things on my own and we were remembering things as friends, I was 100% sure that we were held in from recess and we were coloring. We were doing some interviews for local papers, but it was, you know, and we were,

maybe there was a temptation to massage the story for the documentary or to simplify it, but no, we absolutely believed. I cannot remember, I cannot visualize getting in trouble, but I know in my heart of hearts that we did get in trouble. But I'm 100% sure, this is something I would bet everything on. We were not being held in from recess

for writing profanity on our desks. Okay, but we believe we were being held in from recess, even though Ms. Locklear said she didn't, I believe that. She never did that. I believe that she did that. So it's like, if we weren't held in from recess, we were punished in some way that I think it might've been a succinct way to say it was, we were held in from recess, we were punished in some way that I think

it might've been a succinct way to say it was, we were held in from recess. That's a more visceral way to, a picture to paint than just, oh, we were punished and we had to color pictures. Like the two of, the scene that everyone's outdoors and we are in the room, just the two of us, I am willing to say that might not be true.

Okay, but you glossed over something, Mr. Neal. You glossed over what we were being punished for. I'm saying I am 100%- Oh no, I'm saying that's the next thing. Out of whole cloth, we made up the writing profanity on our desks. We- For a while we said we didn't remember what we wrote.

Here's what we did. And then we just added what we did write. Here's what we did, I agree. We did not, I do not believe that- How do you feel right now? I do not believe that we wrote profanity on our desk. Neither one of us would have ever done that. Not right.

You wouldn't have defaced things. Hell no. Just out of personal principle. Damn no. I would not have defaced things out of fear of being murdered by my parents. I have never defaced anything in a graffiti-esque type of way in my entire life.

Yeah, I was, I mean. Like I couldn't, I don't think I could bring myself to do it now. I mean, ironically, we invite people to do that when we had guests on your business. Yeah, we invited them. But it wasn't, you know, we invited them to. Yeah, yeah, but yeah.

I've never done it. I would have never done it. 100% confident that I did not do that. But here's my defense for the lie. What we said at first was most likely something to the effect of, because the reporter will ask, well, what were you, what did you do?

And we're like, well, we probably- Wrote some words on our desk. Probably wrote something. Probably made something. Writing on the desk. Versus, oh, we talk too much. I remember that the desks had writing on them. From previous something, probably were writing. Made something. Writing on the desk. Versus, oh, we talk too much. I remember that the desks had writing on them.

From previous generations. From other people. And that is something that you would've gotten in trouble for. I think that happened during the song, by the way. The song composition. I think we probably said something like, before the song, you know what?

We were probably scribbling on our desks. Like, oh, and then the reporter's like, what were you writing? And we're like, well, we gotta come up with something. It's like, oh, I don't know, we might've been writing profanity. You know, it was probably just like couched in hypothetical that then the next time we told the story,

it was like, you know what, that was a better story. We're gonna keep it couched in hypothetical, but we're gonna tell it more succinctly. And then over time, the succinct ability of it removes the hypothetical. Well, and I think here- And then you write a song. Here's my defense of how this happens.

Okay. Go back to school with Rogers and get Canada's fastest and most reliable internet. Perfect for streaming lectures all day or binging TV shows all night save up to 20 per month on rogers internet visit rogers.com for details we got you rogers and i and i honestly i don't have any idea how people are perceiving this right now if they're like their whole if they're like disappointed i don't know what it is but like i've always seen the story of how we met

as like a comedy routine that is based in something that actually happened. But like no standup comedian who tells a story is telling you something that happened to them exactly the way that it happened to them. They are taking what happened and then they are mythologizing it in a way to make it funny and entertaining because their job is not a historian,

their job is a comedian, right? Is this argument working? I don't fully buy it. But now, but now, but so, I mean, but it is, yeah. When a standup comedian is like, listen, on the way here, and that's a lie, okay? If they say that something just happened to them today, 100% of the time, it did not happen to them that day, okay?

If you live in a world, and by the way, if nobody watches the late night shows anymore, but if you go on the late, if you're on the late night show and all of a sudden the actor has like a funny story, that's all rehearsed, okay? It's not like they're just like, you know what? What you just said, Jimmy,

just made me think of this thing. It's all rehearsed. Sorry if you didn't already know that. But I think that this is the entertainment version of Rhett and Link having a cool packaged story that is largely true. Largely true. But embellished to a part to make it snappy and funny.

Yeah. And I mean, at least we're coming out and saying that's the case. And I do think there's an evolution of the hypothetical to just leaving out the phrase of the hypothetical is just a thing of rhythm that I'm very good at doing. I'm just like, you know what? This is a better way to tell the story.

It still feels hypothetical. And then after a while, it stops feeling hypothetical to me. Here's the best example of that, just as a little aside, we'll come back to the origin story because this has always cracked me up. Yeah. So, you know our story after we graduated from college, we were engineers for a while,

and then we went on staff with Campus Crusade for Christ, the missionary organization that we were involved in as students, right? So we were like college missionaries for a couple of years, going around telling people how to tell people about Jesus, right? And so, but in order to do that, if you're gonna go on staff with crew,

you have to raise support, which means you have to go and ask people for money. Like sit down with individuals and families. You do a presentation. Do a presentation. You go to somebody's home and you break out your laptop, you do a little presentation and you say, so would you be interested in giving us

or supporting our mission $100 a month or something like that? Yeah, I had to explain why the two of us, we're gonna be speakers and seminar creators and resident comedians and filmmakers, like how do you make sense of that? Right. Well, you talk about the stories from our past

of how we did that. Right. Which we did a lot of that. Yeah, yeah, but the evolution of how it came about was like right at the time we were raising support was when me and you had become like a comedy duo who was like making stuff together and singing together and doing conferences and stuff like that. But during college, I was emceeing with Greg.

As a sidekick. And then you were leading the worship team. Yeah. And we weren't doing comedy together. We would make the videos together. Like you would like film the videos of me and Greg and stuff. But like, that's too complicated to explain

to a 65 year old dude who's just sitting there falling asleep and just wants to hear you tell people about Jesus. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So you simplify, I understand the motivation. I became Greg in the story slowly over time. But my theory is, is that after telling that story

a few times, you believed that to be the case. I think Christy did too. Cause she was there. She never said, you know what, the story's changed. You know, Greg used to be in there and now you're just Greg too. If we get a chance to talk to Greg about this. Yeah, we need to.

But okay, but back to the story. So you were saying that the- So I don't think it was the first day. I don't think, Ms. Locklear doesn't think we were held in. We know that we weren't writing nasty words on the desk. We don't know what it was. I think we got in trouble, but I think that the coloring was maybe not the punishment,

but I have a visceral memory of sitting down and watching you, coloring right next to you. It always in my mind was just the two of us in the classroom. But I believe the only real fact that I could defend is that I once sat next to you and colored and made observations about the nature of the way you were coloring.

And I was like, wow, he's like really precise. It's like, go on. What is he trying? Like, I remember thinking like, what is he trying to prove? It was like- What did I prove? Cause first grade- thinking like, what is he trying to prove? It was like, What did I prove? Cause first grade, Go on.

You know what I'm saying? First grade is like, most kids in first grade are just like, they're holding, this is what I was doing, you're holding the crayon like this, like you're holding it like, it's like you're gonna kill somebody. You're gonna like stab somebody with a crayon. And then it just makes contact with the paper

and you just move it. And I'm just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I look. Me not know what wheel is. And you're like, it's like really even. I'm like, wow, is he submitting this to a contest? Because I didn't know this was a contest and now I need to try.

You know what I'm saying? Oh no, this is just art time. I'm not interested in this. But I know that that happened, but I'm not willing to stand by the fact that those two events coincided and it was actually why we were being punished. Well, it sounds like at least three events

have been combined into one. You remember us coloring. Yeah. We know we met on the first day of first grade. Had to. And we know we got in trouble at some point at the same time? Well, I'm sure that that happened.

Okay. So those three things were compiled into one mythologized origin story. Is there any other part of this that we need to analyze or is that it? Cause I'm not gonna, if we're gonna come clean, it's gonna be now. I'm not gonna, I don't wanna come back to this feeling.

The last, where it all started to fall apart, you know? Yeah, right. This is what happens. We came clean, it's all falling apart, including our friendship. I mean, and from that point on, so I'll just move on then, cause I don't think there's anything else.

Well, no. From that point on, so I'll just move on then because I don't think there's anything else. Well, no. From that point on, we were best friends. And I think the analysis of the rest of this episode will call that into question. Well, the only thing I'll say is I'm not changing the story at this point. I'm not, okay. Oh yeah, so let's decide.

I want to establish how we're going to tell the origin story. Next time you're listening to an interview or us talk to somebody and tell this story, it's going to be the exact same thing we've always said. Yeah. We're not gonna change it and be like, you know, really what happened was, is we just met in first grade.

We're gonna tell the entertaining, embellished mythology of our friendship. And we're gonna tell it until the day we die. And you know what? There'll be a little twinkle in our eye because you'll know the truth and nobody's getting hurt. Nobody's getting hurt, okay? Right?

We're all in this together. What's at stake here, right? We're all in this together. Does it really matter? If it comes out that it's all a sham, and it's not, by the way, we never said it was. Well, you shouldn't even use that word then. It's an amalgamation of truth simplified

into a compelling narrative. And if you wanna mess that up, well, you're implicating yourself. Yeah. Okay, but so we're trusting you and we're gonna keep telling that story and I'm gonna have a hard time for the next year or so, but then I'll get over it.

I'll probably forget this conversation. Here's something- And be cool with it again. Here's something that I'll go out on another limb here. Do it. And say that if this, you know, you should analyze how this makes you feel if you're listening to this, because what you probably should understand

is that the vast majority of news and history pretty much follows what we did. Not only that. You ever read the Bible? Oh God. Not only that, I would say, take a hard look at your own experience and your own memories.

Your memories are a recollection of memories. Every time you remember something, we've talked about this, you're reconstructing the memory in your brain and it evolves. Yeah. This is science. This is science. So we're all in this together, like I was saying. And at least we came clean. We are so defensive right now. So we're all in this together, like I was saying.

And at least we came clean. Well, you're so defensive right now. And no, I just, I feel good. I feel good about it. I think it was hilarious. I feel great. I feel great. We feel so great. We feel great.

I can tell that we both feel great about it. We're so proud of ourselves. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. When you drive a Mazda, you'll find out why RSUVs won more 2024 IIHS top safety picks than any other brand as of June 2024. Find out what makes Mazda different at Mazda.ca. It is canon. I would like to talk a little bit about first impressions as I remember them.

Okay. We've already talked a little bit about my impression of like how you were coloring. But, and I actually didn't, I had to kind of dig back and think like, what do I remember thinking about Link in meeting him? Now I've already established that my MO was to, I wasn't, I didn't perceive you as timid,

but I know that I definitely was not timid in terms of my, I threw myself at people, right? In a way that I don't do now. Like I'm more of an introvert, but I was a weird extrovert in like elementary school in the way that I would just like meet somebody and then within the first five minutes, invite myself to spend the night at their house that night.

I did it with anybody. And so I was very drawn to just like- Now I'm wondering if everything you're saying is an oversimplification. Like the first time you met him, you'd invite yourself over to the house? That's an oversimplification. It is.

But very, very early, like alarmingly early, usually in the first day, I would be like, hey, so like, what do you think about sleepovers? I know, you know, I would, it's just, I'd find a way to, that's all true. So I was, but I would, you know, I was kind of evaluating like, oh, this person seems, there's something here, like this person seems

like they'd be fun or like we could have a good time together, right? So obviously I thought that about you because I'm pretty sure we had sleepovers in first grade. But here's the thing that I remember about you. I find that hard to believe. Okay, maybe I did. That seems really early for me.

Okay, I remember thinking that you were very clean. Clean? Speaking of hygiene, that you were like very put together. Like you had this like, your hair, it was like, somebody's like, he really is caring about like his hair and his clothes. Somebody's combing their hair. His hair is combed, his clothes like match.

Like someone is like laying them out or he cares about it. Like, you know, I'm wearing like gray sweat pants and a gray sweatshirt. You're like, that's an outfit, I'm there. You know what I mean? And like, you're like, I only have a blue Coke shirt and yellow Coke pants. And like, you know what I'm saying?

And I know this wasn't just first grade, but I remember thinking that it was like, but I didn't process it. You know, I'm first grade. So I'm looking back and thinking that like, what did you think about- Do you remember- This kid.

Like even on the first day of a grade, would you, I mean, early on, would your parents- Not first grade. Would your parents put you in an outfit and take your picture? No. Yeah, every year I would you in an outfit and take your picture? No. Yeah, every year, I would be put in an outfit and my mom would take my picture

with like my new Trapper Keeper and my lunchbox and I'm standing in front of the closet and now I'm going to school and boy, this is really built up and I don't know how I feel about this. I think my parents were just happy. My anus is very tight right now. Oh gosh, I think my parents were just happy. My anus is very tight right now. Oh gosh. I think my parents were just happy

to get us to school without someone dying. You had an older brother too. Yeah. It was just like, this is old news to them. Yeah, the sweat, just put on your sweats. It's like, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go out and you're gonna play some b-ball? And I had a, I don't know if in first grade,

I didn't have a buzz cut in first grade, but like pretty early on, I was just like, they're just like, just tend to the barbershop and put it on level one. Like me and my brother just had ones, just like, it was like a military family. But it really wasn't. It was a family that just didn't care about,

just like, okay, well you go to school, like we're gonna care, oh, we care what you look like when you go to church and we care what you look like on picture day, sorta? Sorta. But not really. Yeah, for me, it's like, you know, I was an only child and it was like, you know,

my mom was like, I was her little baby. So like, she's like doing, you know, she's like, everything's gotta be right for little Linky, you know? But for you, it's like, you're the second. And it's, there's also two opinions in your house. So it's like, even if your dad wanted to dress you up and your mom was like, oh, don't worry about it. Let him wear his sweats or vice versa.

I'm sure my dad was not like, let's dress up. My dad was like- I'm just giving, you know, I'm not trying to play into gender stereotypes here, but I'm just saying there's two opinions and those opinions are distributed over two boys. Whereas me, it's one opinion that was not throttled, my mom's opinion that I did not question. I was like, okay, yeah.

It's like, oh, this is how things are done. I also think question. I was like, okay, yeah, it's like, oh, this is how things are done. I also think it's a disposition too, because- Sure. We actually think about like, Jessie and I have both had probably more opinions than we should have about like what our kids wear when they go places.

You know what I'm saying? I think it might just be- Oh yeah. Just like living in a more superficial culture or whatever, but it's kind of like, hey bro, like that doesn't match or like your hair looks crazy right now. Those conversations didn't happen in my home.

Do you know what I mean? It just didn't, that wasn't a part, that I remember it wasn't a part of things. It was kind of like, yeah, you're dressed and you're alive. I'll tell you what wasn't a part of things. It was kind of like, yeah, you're dressed and you're alive. I'll tell you what- Get out there. What wasn't a part of my life, and that was a part. I know that my hair was just combed straight forward. You had a bowl cut.

It was combed straight forward. Yeah. And there was no, but it was combed, it was brushed. I remember thinking, his hair looks like it's cut by a lady. As a total, yeah, a total generalization. Yeah, it was. And now her name was-

Not Rudolph Blanchard who was just- I will say her name was Bobby though. So she didn't have a man's name. Okay. But she like, no one- She was a woman. Scissors did not see my hair until 30, the age of 30.

I mean, I went through my whole 20s cutting my own hair with clippers. I mean like, but scissors, I could see, you had scissors on your hair. I think- It was written all over your face. I'm trying to think what my first impressions of you were because I have to kind of interpolate

from the facts that I know. I don't, and maybe I'll access a memory, but nothing specific comes to mind like it does for you. It's like, I'm so good. I made such a strong impression on you. So many visceral and specific memories. But it wasn't, but because it was different, that's what I'll say that like,

I felt like most of the other kids sort of seem like, yeah, like we're in first grade. We're just kind of like- Going with it. Existing. Yeah. But it was like, oh, this kid is like, he's- Put together. It's picture day every day for this kid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? I like that. Yeah, yes, definitely. And for the reasons that I mentioned. I think that, you know, I don't think it was anything that I analyzed. It was just the opinions in my life, basically my mom. Well, you don't think that you-

I never questioned it. You don't think that you- I never questioned it. You don't think that you- And I never looked around. I don't think I, I was self-conscious. I do have this early preschool memory of like, the guys were so rambunctious and physical. Like there was like wrestling happening in preschool and I was afraid of the guys

and I would always hang out with the girls. And like the guys would climb this fort structure, built indoors at the Lillington First Baptist Church and be up there and I would, doing rambunctious stuff and I was just intimidated and so I would hang out with the girls. What, and now I didn't know you at that time. So there's like a kindergarten version of that.

I didn't know you at that time, but what I do remember along those lines is that it was very quickly, First grade version. It was like, he's not interested in sports. Now again, I wasn't, I didn't have a, I've never really been that like, I'm not a judgmental person, you know what I'm saying?

So it's not like, he's not interested in sports, so therefore he's not my friend. No, it was like, apparently it was he's different, I gotta see his house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta spend the night. But it was clear that like, even in first grade, I remember in first grade, first, second grade, talking to other boys about, you know,

like J.R. Reid's coming to Carolina. Like that's a level of conversation that I would have with these other kids who like cared about college sports and like what was happening at Carolina and State and Duke at the time, right? And a lot of that comes from the fact that like, okay, my dad was really into sports and all these other kids' dads were really into sports and I had a lot of that comes from the fact that like, okay, my dad was really into sports and all these other kids' dads were really into sports

and I had a brother and that kind of thing. But it was like, that wasn't a conversation I was gonna have with you. It was like, okay, well, I'm gonna have a different conversation with this guy. My first impression of you had to have been related to the fact that like you weren't there the year before in kindergarten, you were taller than everybody.

Yeah, I was already a bit taller. Taller skin, you had this look about you. A look. It's like, you know. I mean, I'm not gonna- Like a hulk, like a falcon. I'm not gonna say it's Gollum-esque, but you had bigger eyes and you were gangly. And if you- But you did just say it was Gollum-esque. If you got down

on all fours, I'm not gonna say that's like, you know how in like the Fellowship of the Ring, they put Gollum in there for a few seconds, but you didn't really, like they hadn't fully figured out who Gollum was. They hadn't done all the CGI. So like in Two Towers, he's fully fleshed out and looks different.

But in like the first one, he's kind of like this shadowy new character that you don't really know. And like, boy, he's really hunched over and you can kind of count all of his vertebrae and boy, he looks like he has an extra vertebrae and his eyes are so big. You're talking- That's probably what I thought. You're talking more- But I'm not gonna say

because I don't remember. You're talking, but factually, that's not true because I looked that way during and shortly after puberty. I actually was just kind of a tall kid, but proportionally relatively normal. Okay. I began looking like Gollum in ninth grade. I was just joking.

Okay, well, it's a good joke. It was a good run there. Now- It was worth the 90 seconds that it took. Let's go. Every Canadian dairy farm is unique. That's why every farmer takes charge of their own unique environmental farm plan. Also drawing from 57 environmental practices.

My plan includes biodiversity. And part of mine is powered by renewable energy. Why care so much? Because Canadian dairy farmers hold themselves to higher standards. That's what's behind the blue cow logo. Dairy Farmers of Canada. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thoroughly enjoyed it. So we were, let's go through the teachers we had

from first to sixth grade. First grade, Ms. Locklear's class. Second grade, I was in Ms. Bailey's class. I was in Ms. Lawrence's class. So we were not in the same class. Right. And we can revisit some of these, but I just kind of want to go through it.

Third grade. I was in Ms. Hood's class. We were both in Ms. Hood's class. I mean, I remember you being in Ms. Hood's class. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember me being in Ms. Hood's class? Yeah, yeah, and that's when Ben, and that's the year Ben moved into town from Oklahoma.

Okay. Third grade. So I remember really liking Ms. Hood's class. Ms. Hood was great. She was tough, but she was great. She was a great teacher. Fourth grade. Ms. Everhart. I was in Ms. Rand's class.

Right, yeah. Now, what happened was, they did this thing where it was like, by this age, all the kids knew that they were labeled as, like some kids got this AG label, academically gifted. Right. And there was this, it was something that everybody knew and it was, I don't think it was healthy

that we all knew it. No. And so then you were kind of put into different classes based on that. It was like, oh, you're in the smart class or you're in the not so smart class. Ms. Everhart was the smart class. Ms you're in the not so smart class. Ms. Everhart was the smart class. Ms. Rand was the not so smart class.

Right. And you're right. We all kind of like, we all knew it. Y'all knew it. And the reason why, I was a smart kid. I think I was in that, the AG bucket. No judgment to those who weren't. I guess maybe I'm, I don't want to imply that.

But my mom had heard all this stuff about how Ms. Everhart was so tough on her students. Oh, she gives so much homework. She's so, she pushes them so hard that my mom went to school and requested that I not get Ms. Everhart. Ms. Everhart was actually an incredible teacher. I know, that's the sad thing about it.

Now her room was out in one of those trailers. Yeah, she was isolated so she could get away with all types of stuff my mom didn't want little Linky to have to suffer through. And the smart kids, by the way, got a computer. Did y'all have a computer in your classroom? Uh-uh. Yeah, we had like two. They gave us two computers and they gave y'all have a computer in your classroom? Uh-uh. Yeah, we had like two.

They gave us two computers and they gave y'all zero computers. I'm sorry, man, your mom screwed that one up big time. And that was the year I learned my multiplication tables. And I learned how to beat Oregon Trail. Yeah, I didn't get to play it. I had to go to the library to play Oregon Trail. Yeah, I could do it anytime I wanted.

Man, I remember, well, I'm not gonna talk about my teacher, but it was like, yeah, the classes, it just wasn't the same caliber. Fifth grade, I was in Miss Hobbs' class. Miss Hobbs, yeah. I couldn't remember if you were in there. My big thing about that year, my claim to fame, was that's when I won the anti-drug poster contest

and had to travel with Miss Hobbs to the Kiwanis Club dinner at the Western Sizzler in Dunn. We haven't given the update, I'm not gonna do it now, but just as a reminder, we haven't given the update about what we learned about, we met someone who knew about the poster contest. I need to get the full story and report back. From Cole.

Yeah, from my brother. My brother met someone who was in charge of choosing the winner of that contest. The other thing I remember, oh wow. The other thing I remember from Ms. Hobbs was she was pregnant that year and lots of times she was not in a good headspace. I remember her seeming a little bit perturbed

with the children, yeah. Yeah, she had a short fuse and a very pregnant belly. Yeah. It's like, in retrospect, I kind of feel for her. Oh yeah, could you imagine? I was like, what is wrong with this woman? I mean, I know that she's pregnant, but I mean, what's her problem?

She was a good teacher though. Gosh. She was a good teacher, learned Gosh. She was a good teacher. Learned a lot of math in that class. Yeah. And then in sixth grade, I was in Ms. Campbell's class. I was in Ms. Lanier's class. Ms. Lanier's class.

And at that point- I really feel like I missed out on Ms. Lanier's class, but Ms. Campbell was super sweet. It was a combination class. So there was some, it was the smart sixth graders and the not as smart seventh graders. Yeah, right, that's it. That's really how it worked.

Pretty simple. But you know, we haven't really thought about it in a while that like every, we met in first grade, then every other year we weren't in the same class. Yeah. So, and you have this memory of like from the beginning going on sleepovers to people's homes in the Book of Mythicality.

If you're into this type of conversation and you haven't gotten your copy of the Book of Mythicality, get one because there are stories that we're not gonna share here and lots of other stories from our shared best friendship, even though now we're dismantling it. Available in audio book form as well that we read. Probably even better.

I don't remember spending the night, I remember I told the story of spending a night at Zach West's house and then he pile-drived me and he wasn't best friend material is how I put it in the book. I think I spent the night at Matthew Inzor's house once and his dad, Benny was watching Alien and I felt really uncomfortable.

So yeah, it's just like, I just remember feeling uncomfortable in other environments. Like I was only comfortable at home. So I can believe that if you invited yourself over to my house, I wasn't gonna say no. I would be like, sure. But I would not have been comfortable going to your house at such an early age.

Oh, I didn't invite people to my house. Cause I already know about that. Okay, so- I didn't have sleepovers at my house until like very few of these people- Probably sixth grade, maybe seventh grade. Yeah, so, okay, my- And that's when I would have started

spending the night at your house. My perspective on this is that, again, the way that my brain works is that I don't, especially at the time, I didn't like categorize people. Right? And so if you asked me in first grade, who's your best friend? I'd be like, I got lots of friends.

And I would probably answered that question the same way. I would say that there was probably like third and fourth grade after Ben moved into town. Yeah. There was probably, especially that year, the Miss Everhart year where we were not in the same class. Yeah. Or I would have said Ben was my best friend

if you would have put me up against, well, but I did not think in terms- Maybe not, and there's a reason I'll give in a minute, but I'm not surprised by this, yeah. But I didn't think in terms of Maybe not, and there's a reason I'll give in a minute, but I'm not surprised by this, yeah. But I didn't think in terms of that, it was more just like, there's people that I like to hang out with a whole lot. But everybody, like if I mentioned any guy,

tell me if you spent the night at the house. Adam. Yeah. David R. Yes. You didn't, let's see, the Enzors, did you spend a night at Matthew Enzor's house? Definitely at least a couple of times, but I don't remember exactly, it may have been a little bit later.

Tate Maddox. Oh yeah, multiple times. Who else? Zach. You spent a night in Zach's house? Oh yeah, Julian. Oh, Julian, skateboarder? Yeah. Oh, he was too intimidating.

And I think Chris too. Chris Morris? I think so. Of course, Peter Dinklage, not the Peter Dinklage. Well, he was your neighbor. So you'd walk over, he was younger too. You would spend a night at somebody a year younger? You got a house, you got a fridge,

you got a TV, I'm there. So you would- Justin. Oh, Justin? You'd go around the corner to Justin's house? Every kid in my neighborhood was on the list. Michael Juby, he was in the mix then. Oh yes, Michael Juby had the best house. He had that loft thing with a spiral staircase.

And he was on a golf course. Oh yeah. Hole 13 at the time on Keith Hill's, man. And his parents were fun to talk to. So cool. Yeah, man. I didn't spend the night at any of these people's houses. Ever. I was gre spend the night at any of these people's houses.

Ever. I was gregarious, man. I was up for a good time. When Adam Nicholson had that sleepover for his birthday and we watched Texas Chainsaw Massacre, that may have been the first time I spent the night at anyone's house. And that was probably seventh grade, sixth grade. Really? Yeah.

I can name 10 more, by the way, I need a yearbook. Okay, we won't get into it. You know, Brooks. Okay, so Brooks was younger too. Two years younger, but he was a family friend. Our families were really close. So, and you loved it, you were never like, "'Get me out of here."

No, man. Here's the thing. I mean, we're so different in this way. But this is something- But it didn't register. That's the thing. No, but this is something that I didn't know about myself and I've never really thought about it. But like, I, especially back in the day,

I don't feel like I do this as much anymore, but like, I would find a way to connect with somebody. I would be like, this is the thing that they're into and it's just like, I'm into everything. So when I go to this person's house, all we talk about is this. And you know what? I didn't dictate what we talked about.

It was like, this person's into this, this person's really into Nintendo. Well, I can be really into Nintendo. You spent the night at Chad Landers' house? Yes. And just played Nintendo, just like he would do a speed run through it all. I think there was one time.

Okay. But it is funny because now that I've learned more about the Enneagram, one of the things they call the Enneagram three is the chameleon, right? It's a person who- Blends in. Can enter into a environment

and immediately be like, this is what we're doing here? All right, this is what I'm doing. If that's what makes everybody happy, that's what I'm gonna do. And that brought me joy. And you had a really stable home life. You know, I think, and I'm doing some work now to kind of go back to that point.

And this is kind of helpful. Like I'm not gonna bring it up here. Like I'm not gonna work now to kind of go back to that point. And this is kind of helpful. Like I'm not gonna bring it up here. Like I'm not gonna bring the therapy component into this except to say maybe later, but for now, the only thing I'll say is that like, yeah, I'm coming to grips with the fact that like, you know, my mom did an excellent job. I'm not critiquing anything she did

with the hand that was dealt her, but it was not, I had this perception of it, it was not a stable environment, you know? And I had this really keen sense of like just a gut feeling of lack of safety outside of the home. That's an oversimplification and maybe an overdramatization of it.

But it was like, that's kind of how I ventured into the world was with trepidation. So, you know, when you were spending the night at people's homes, like what was I doing? I was doing my own thing at home, like watching this new thing called Nickelodeon on channel 34. I didn't have cable, that was another reason

I had to get to other people's homes. They had cable. And then I would do some exploring in the woods and all the stuff around my house alone. I would pretend to be an army guy who was like a commando. And we had the, so you remember those duck boots that everybody had and on the back of them

they said, explorers, because I think it was like an addition of that duck boot. Yeah. So Cole and I had those and then Jeremy Fisher down the street had those boots as well. And so we were the explorers, but that was again, that was with-

Neighborhood kids. Yeah, that was with my older brother, three years older. I didn't have any neighborhood kids either. And so we would go name the forts and stuff like that, but like- My community wasn't like that. We were on opposite sides of town. Right.

So, but I think one of the main forces that brought us together and it superseded school and then might change a little bit of the complexion of like what would have been in your mind as a fourth grader saying that Ben was your best friend, which you certainly would have said, but would have kind of put me in that conversation, was church.

Yeah. You know, from the moment you moved there, you joined Boots Creek First Baptist Church, the church that me and mom and a stepdad, Jimmy, went to. So we were at that church. Why do you think your parents chose that church? I think Jimmy had a connection to that church that went further back.

So it was like there was a longer established connection there. But, and then I was very, we were both very involved. Your parents were very involved. My mom, if she could pull everything together in time to get to church on time, she was gonna be there, but she had a hard time getting ready to the point where at a certain point, I'd be like,

"'Mom, you need to stop halfway in your makeup and hair routine to bring me to church because the kids are making fun of me for being late for church every Sunday morning for Sunday school. And then she would come back and like show up halfway through the Sunday school lesson or just show up at church.

She could not get herself ready. Wow. But yeah, we would Sunday school and church every Sunday morning, every Wednesday night, there'd be something. And then there was usually another night of the week that we were at church. So it was like, even the years

that we weren't in the same class, we were spending like our youth group time and church time together. And like, so, and we were very close in that world. Like if you think of everybody else that went to church, who were the other guys that went to church with us? There wasn't like Matthew McKinney went to church with us. And Matthew and John.

Matthew and John Ensor. But so it was a smaller group that like, we were the closest to each other. Yeah, by that time, by that time I would have- And that was from an early time. And by third grade, third, fourth, fifth, sixth grade, I would not have said that any of those other kids that I had spent the night with were my best friends.

I would be like, my friends are Ben and Link. Yeah. In terms of like my friends my age, and then I would be, and I think I would have been like, and I hang out with Brooks quite a bit too, but yeah. Yeah, when you talk about Brooks, sports was such a big part of your life, basketball. Like you played everything, you played baseball,

you played soccer. I played soccer from, that was the big thing in Buies Creek. Everybody, there was like a five, six and seven year old team, recreation team. Like they started you really young. It was like very organized. There was basketball, recreation didn't exist.

Baseball recreation didn't exist. But like, it was interesting that soccer was the thing that was like really exploding in like the late 80s. And so- And Campbell had a really good team. That's right. So like, I always played soccer and had enough confidence to at times begin to enjoy it, but not any other sports,

but you were into every sport. So we didn't connect in that way, but I played all the other sports all the way through, you know, up until, yeah, like baseball started at like maybe sixth grade and I did play. Boy, I hated that. Maybe fifth grade. Yeah.

But so a little bit of soccer, but it was mainly church. And like your parents were so committed to it. And I kind of folded in underneath that, like level of commitment that was like, I was, I mean, as we've established from a young age, you followed your parents' example. And I kind of followed your family's example of like being super committed.

Yeah. It was like, that was from a very early age, our identity as people was our evangelical belief system. Even in contrast to the other church across town, Memorial Baptist, and so, oh, they're the more liberal church. And like, we had friends from school who went to that church but we thought of them differently because it wasn't, they weren't as fervent in our opinion as we were.

I mean, that's a whole story in and of itself is just, yeah, there's a saying for that, the something of minor differences, I can't remember what it is, but it says you've gotta have an enemy and in this little teeny tiny town, there's two main churches that are two Baptist churches and those two Baptist churches have to find a way

to look down on one another. It's just so crazy. Because there were, I mean, read the Lost Causes of Bleak Creek, you'll see how we folded that into the novel, but, and there weren't many people, we didn't have many classmates who didn't go to one church or the other, you know?

So it was really, that's why there was such a dichotomy. It's like everybody went to one church or the other. And we were getting closer to the group of kids that were our age that were at church as well. And as we got older, you know, you start taking it more seriously. And so then the fact that you take this very seriously and like you believe in God in this very particular way

and you practice that belief, then you start making connections with people. And also there's like the whole like, you start kind of drawing some political lines because that's part of it as well. And of course we're talking early nineties South. By that time, the Christian right had pretty much taken hold in the conservative party.

So Republicans, so it was just like, oh, are you a Democrat or Republican? Right. So it was like, you needed to be a Republican, Christian, in order to be like really on the in club. And that was beginning, that was starting to filter in the way that we were thinking, right? Yeah.

And I remember even, you know, around like fifth, sixth grade, Ben started to kind of experience some of the issues that- The tension, because he went to Memorial Baptist. Well, but also he was always such an open-minded, like challenging thinker, and his parents were too. Because his family was. And so it's just like,

that started to get a little complicated as I'm like getting serious about this. It's kind of like- Yeah, it's like your dad was a law professor. Ben is not really into this. He's got more questions about this. But Ben's dad was a biology professor, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's like, you can definitely see that vibe of like, you know, the rule following versus the- But coupled with the fact that Ben was also beginning to experience some emotional things and some physical things like trying to figure out, has he got chronic fatigue, whatever. I can't remember exactly when that started to manifest itself, but that began to complicate.

It's difficult for kids to understand how to navigate a friendship when someone's going through stuff like that. Which again, will refer to the other podcast that where we talked at length about Ben, our other best friend. So we don't have to get back into that now. But I mean, we certainly connected

over like being out in nature. So even though you spent a lot of time playing basketball, as we got into these older elementary grades, like you were, I was more comfortable coming out of my shell, you know, ramping up in the middle school and like starting to get, like we connected over like being in nature and I got in on what you and Ben were doing.

But back to the church thing, I mean, our first teacher I remember was Ms. Tolsma. Tols-some, something like that. I do not remember her. She was my neighbor across the street and she was our Sunday school teacher at first. Was she blonde and had all the kids? She had the two twins who were blonde.

The blonde twins. Oh, good gosh. Really? The fantasies. The fantasies. I don't remember. Just going over there and swinging on the swing set with those blonde twins.

That's all I wanted. I didn't remember. I just wanted to swing with them. I didn't remember being into them. But that was kind of like a normal Sunday school teacher. Yeah, I felt like you had different tastes in women. But my point is she was a normal Sunday school teacher, but then Ms. Cluck showed up.

You remember Ms. Cluck? Okay, now we're talking. Now I remember. Ms. Cluck had a son who was a year older than us, Sam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And her husband was, he was a science guy at Campbell. Well, they lived in that house, not the Campbell house, but near the Campbell house,

where people who were in town working at Campbell would live for a little bit. He was a professor, but he had just, they had, yeah, somehow they just moved in. They was very associated with the school. But she was very scholarly and kind of this like homeschool precursor type thing. So like when we went to her Sunday school class,

it wasn't just like, hey, here's a nice Bible story and you're gonna have some prayer and a craft. No, this was intense education. Like this is what grace means. This is what mercy means. This is how they don't mean the same thing. And it's like posted all over the- Yeah, we were being indoctrinated real hard.

And it was, yeah, she was- Very effectively. It was very intense. Yeah. And she was a, I wouldn't say a, how would I describe her? Scholarly, intense, proper, like prim and proper. It's kind of like if she could have had a ruler and smacked you on the hand,

it was almost like if it was a couple of decades earlier, she'd have been in that old school vibe. And again, this is just Sunday school. This is just an elective thing. But you know, one of the things I think is significant about this is that kids respond to this type of instruction, and let's just be honest,

this type of indoctrination in different ways. Some kids sniff it out and are like, I'm not into this, and they rebel at that point and they kind of check out. Even though our personalities were very different, we both locked in on this thing and we're like, for whatever reason, this is it, man, this is important. Like, I gotta listen to these people. I gotta be about this.

And I think that the fact that we both lashed onto it so hard is really what made us such good friends leading into middle school. Even if we weren't in the same class, we didn't see each other at school for every other year. That's absolutely what did it. And she was also artsy. She didn't write it, but she brought in this play,

The Bible Tells Me So-Show. That was her, huh? Yep, her son, Sam, was like a gifted actor and singer and very charismatic and like larger than life. But in retrospect, I think it was okay. She can't cast her own son to be the starring role of this because- The host of the show.

You know, it was the Bible Tells Me So show was, it was a spoof of Family Feud. If Family Feud was just about Bible trivia. Yeah. And then the two teams that competed, which like the two families were friend groups. So it's like all the, they were like all kids in a youth group

that knew each other. So there was like some sort, I wouldn't call it drama, but there was interplay, friendship interplay between them. That's part of the story. Christian interplay. That's part of the story. That's part of the story that rounded out it being- Because we were all in the same youth group.

Yeah. So she couldn't cast her own son to be the star, which he clearly needed to be. Yeah, as I recall, that would be the case. And so she cast me to be the host of the Bible Tells Me So show. I remember you getting that part. And this was at a time that I was like,

any sort of like, I was about being like a class clown and like, you know, cutting up and like getting attention in that way. I was too. And you were too. But when it came to like, this is organized and somebody else is dictating what this is, I was always like, this is not for me. Especially because it was a play.

But yeah, yeah, I had this- We didn't think we were the drama kids. Right, right, but I remember you getting cast as that and it's like, now I'm thinking back to what I must have been thinking, being like, well, you know what, he is very clean. Like a host, like a TV host. He's very put together, like this is good casting. You a host, like a TV host. He's very put together.

Like this is good casting. You know what I'm saying? You're not gonna give the kid with the buzz the hosting job because you had hair. Like you had hair that could be combed into a- And at Easter, I would wear suits to church. So I had a few suits. You had a blazer, at least one.

Yeah. Right, yeah. I think you had a blazer, at least one. Yeah. Right, yeah. I think it was a pretty good casting. I think Sam would have taken it, gone too hard. He definitely- I think Sam would have gone too hard. He went so hard at everything. Yeah, so, I mean, you were in the play.

I was on one of the teams. All the youth group were there, but I had so many- Good answer, good answer. I had so many lines. That was one of my lines. And it was a musical. When I see trees waving in the breeze. You had to sing that?

Hear the birds in the air. I thank the Lord for all that he has done. It's amazing that you don't remember this. To show me he cares. You don't remember that? No, man, I don't remember that, dude. Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for he is good to all. This is why there's two of us.

I remember certain things, and he remembers other things. And sends the sun to light our day, and helps the rain to fall. Now, hold on. Do you think you could sing this without the fact that you found it on video? I found the video. I didn't watch it.

I remember this stuff from then, abso-freaking-lutely. Really? The thing that I- It's crazy. And what I wanna do is, I wanna digitize, I've got this VHS, it's got my mom's handwriting on it. She kept it all these years and now I have it. I wanna digitize the Bible tells me so show. Let's put it on the society

and we'll like do a director's commentary. Well, we didn't direct it. We'll get Ms. Cluck to do it. No, we'll do a participant, an actor's commentary over this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good idea. I think we kind of have to put it on the Mythical Society

just because that's where it makes the most sense and there might be rights issues otherwise. That's what the Mythical Society is all about, man. Yeah. It's got the coolest stuff. I remember all the songs, but I'll tell you what I don't remember. Any of my lines, even at the time.

I remember drilling my lines. I had a stack of stuff. I had so many freaking lines. Weren't you at one point in the baptismal? Didn't the baptismal open up and you said something? I don't think so. In my mind, that's what happened. I had the script on the pulpit

and I would flip the script and I'd follow it along. I couldn't memorize all the lines. Did we do that on a Sunday morning? Did they give us the service? I don't know, maybe. Or was it like it come to this thing on Wednesday night? You know, maybe. Or was it like it come to this thing on Wednesday night? You know, there was, we were so, like the youth group was like so much of our identity.

And like you said, it really brought us together. And it was like our youth group against the world, against like when we went in, they would talk in terms of like, when you go into school, it's like you support each other and you hold each other accountable. But we were developing this incredibly tribalistic mindset. Right?

And I'm using that in terms of how hard you identify with another group of people and an ideology to the point that in this tiny little town where everybody pretty much thought the same stuff to begin with. Yeah. And again, they might think a little bit differently about some things,

but like we developed this mindset that we were different even in this place that was so different from everything else. And I just had no idea what was happening in my mind. It's like, I'm so happy I was able to let go of that. Well, one of the things was pride. Just thinking that you're the rightest of the right of the right of the right of the right.

We definitely took pride in that and said, okay, through this lens, I can understand who I am. And when you find other people who think exactly the same way, it creates an incredible bond, you know? And we'll talk about middle school and high school in two other episodes. But yeah, it's like this being established now,

like in sort of that late elementary school is what, it's the reason that we ended up staying such good friends through all that. And it's the reason that we went to college together. It's the reason that we went on staff together. It's the reason that we're sitting right here at this table. So I can be kind of like, I can poke fun at it, or I can say that it's toxic in some ways,

but we really owe everything to the church. The Bible tells me so, show. Yeah, it's the place to be. Yeah. You'll see. It's very catchy. Did she write that? I don't think she wrote any of it,

but she was capable of it. She's very capable. I'm a little disappointed you don't remember any of the songs. I don't know how that's, I wish I could repurpose that part of my brain. I don't remember the words to any of our songs. I don't know how that's, I wish I could repurpose that part of my brain. I don't remember the words to any of our songs. Yeah.

When we get ready to do a concert, I'm like, give me a few days. I have to reacquaint myself with every part of this. But lines, I mean, I don't know. It's a different spot in my brain. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe I should be more into musicals now.

And maybe I could have a career in music. You know what? I thought about this. I don't think it's music versus lines. I think it's your long-term memory. There's a part of your brain that stores it really, really effectively. I have really good short-term memory. I have very bad long-term memory

in terms of like lyrics like that. So I do think this sets up our next conversation, you know, when we revisit this and go into middle school, I mean, because there's so, you know, there were so many pressures that then of puberty and- A lot of pressure. And dating, yeah. Pressure in the pants.

But I popped that zip rope in. But there's different, I think there's maybe, I'm gonna pop that zip rope in. But there's different, I think there's maybe, and we've explored some of that, but there's like other ways to look at middle school. Yeah, we're not just gonna talk about erections the whole time. And high school as we get back into that. But I think this is a good start.

I have a good appreciation for how it's a combination of so many circumstances and like in spite of our differences that brought us together. It's like we had these things that mattered the most to us that brought us together and there were the, and the amount of time associated with those things and those priorities really worked. But I mean, you could be sitting here with Matt McKinney

or even more likely I could be. There were times, because like in the youth group, he was probably the other guy that like at times, like I really hit it off with when you were, you're in your basketball mode, you know? Cause he went to church with us. Like, I don't know, you know, if there's many other people that, you know,

once you get in like fifth grade that it could have been. Yeah. But it was, but it was, it felt kind of preordained to commandeer the term. And the thing, I think we'll talk more about it in the next one, but like the things that we were finding funny, we didn't even get into that, but we were connecting on how silly we were

and the things that we thought were funny. Yeah. And that was really the connection between us and Ben too. The three of us were so silly to the point of like, the level of silliness was off the charts. It would push other people off. Yeah, people were like,

these guys, there's something wrong with them. Yeah, it was like, they're their own little club of silliness. Like weird to a degree. It was inaccessible. And I really liked it. I was like, yeah, I'm super into sports and I wanna be the best at all this sports stuff,

but I wanna be incredibly silly and it's completely unreserved. Like we were completely unreserved when we were being stupid. And I think we did, that's the thing that we fully explored in the book of mythicality that we really didn't talk about as much here. Because those early radio shows and the stuff that we did, that talk about as much here. Because those early radio shows and the stuff that we did,

that was all in elementary school. That was all very early. We were doing that stuff in my house with the Jambox. Probably not quite as early as we think it was. Making that show. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm probably fifth grade. Fifth grade, yeah. But so to tie a bow on this,

you know that the origin story is at least parts mythology. And then the best friends since first grade, it's like, well, it's a little more complicated than that. There were some ins and outs and some circumstantial things in the elementary school years. But as we were coming to, the elementary school years were coming to a close, hadn't in a middle school.

I think it was, we would both safely say that we were each other's best friends. And it's been that way ever since. But that's not as clean, just like a link nail bowl cut right across the forehead as saying best friends since first grade. And you know what? This is a special, it's kind of like renewing our vows.

Our best friendship vows. That's another way to look at this thing. We can have a ceremony. Okay. We'll put that on the society too. And you know what? There's another reason this episode is special. I'm not gonna give a wreck.

This is our last recording with Kiko. Yes. That's right, Kiko. We're gonna get a little sentimental with youiko. Yes. That's right, Kiko, we're gonna get a little sentimental with you here, man. Kiko joined us about five years ago and has been working exclusively on Ear Biscuits for about four of those years, right?

So been here in the room, he has listened to us talk about so many things. And you know what? He has to listen to it when we talk about it now, and then he has to listen to it again when he edits it. Are you tired of us yet? Is that why you're leaving? So you got a great job opportunity with Patreon

and we fully bless. Let's go churchy. We're giving you blessings. We're giving you blessings, Kiko. We're gonna send you over to Patreon. And then when you've had your way with Patreon, we want you to come back into the fold at any time you want.

Had your way? Yeah, it's like, that's not really. I don't remember anybody saying that in church. At least not from the pulpit. The prodigal Kiko returns. Yeah, first of all, thanks's not really. I don't remember anybody saying that in church. At least not from the pulpit. The prodigal Kiko returns. Yeah, first of all, thanks for everything that you've done. You've made this podcast what it is in a lot of ways. Yeah, thank you for protecting us

from things that we said that came out wrong that you caught before they went out. Yes, and Patreon is lucky to have you and I know that we will stay in touch. And you know what? It's been truly inspiring to see you develop professionally and as a person. Like, you know, we count it an honor to know you

and to have been a part of your life and to kinda just to see who you are. And, you know, we appreciate the things that you've said about the impact that we've had and this experience has had on you. And we want you to know that it absolutely has gone the other way too. You've had a tremendous impact on us

and we will never forget it. And we're not gonna forget you because we're still gonna be in touch. But thank you for everything that you've done to shape this podcast and also to be an inspiration. We've learned a lot from you, so thank you. Yeah, thanks Kiko. We're not gonna give you a mic so you can say anything.

All right, but we're gonna keep doing this Ear Biscuits. We're not gonna stop just because you're leaving, all right? So yeah, we'll speak at you next week. Thanks to Kiko, good luck. We know he's gonna be successful wherever he goes. Yep, hashtag Ear Biscuits.