Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1005: Dan Haren’s New Job and Old Fear of Hall of Famers

Episode Date: January 12, 2017

Ben talks to former major league pitcher (and newly hired Diamondbacks Pitching Strategist) Dan Haren about his new job, how players handle the media, his struggles and success against Hall of Fame-caliber hitters, his own hitting skills, PEDs, trades and free agency, baseball’s salary structure, and more.

But here, closer every year, so near, the fear is coming clear, my dear, the fear is here. Hello and welcome to episode 1005 of Effectively Wild, the podcast from Baseball Perspectives and Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, and my incoming co-host Jeff Sullivan will be with me tomorrow, which means we are down to our last interim guest host. was lamenting how teams are more and more often hiring analytically minded former players recently retired players to be liaisons or go-betweens between players in the front office and the coaching staff and i was saying that it was sort of a shame because we are deprived of of these guys in a sense in in the past they might have gone on to be talking heads on TV or podcast guests, but now they're getting snapped up by teams. And after I said that, I got a tweet from Dan Heron, who was just hired as a Diamondbacks pitching strategist. And he said that he is still allowed to talk, even though he is working for the Diamondbacks now.

So I made him prove it by coming on to the show. Hey, Dan. Hey, man. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, happy to. So tell us to the show. Hey, Dan. Hey, man. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, happy to. So tell us about the job. I know that you can't probably divulge every detail, but can you give us the broad strokes? Well, yeah. I mean, I guess the job title kind of says a lot, pitching strategist. It's kind of, the job kind of happened, I would say, organically, kind of. I wasn't per se looking out there looking for a job,

but I had let my agent know actually that what kind of job I was looking for if I was to go back to work. And I spent last year just watching baseball on TV, which was fun. But I felt like I had something to offer. And what's interesting is I've been with eight different teams

and especially the last few years bouncing around.. I've learned the ins and outs of trying to get hitters out and what some organizations do really good and what some organizations need help with. I have a specific skill in breaking down hitters. I would say my career resume speaks for itself. You know, early on in my career, things came really easy. Toward the end of my career, things were much more difficult. You know, I had to do a lot of work in order to come up with a game plan of trying to get, you know, major league hitters out with, I would say, subpar stuff. You know, my last year, I think my fastball averaged in the 85, 86 range. So it was tough, but part of that was kind

of fun, putting together the puzzle of a major league hitter and figuring out the best way, the best possible chance for me to be successful and areas to pitch where the damage that would be done would be less and trying to minimize slugging percentage, stuff like that. And I kind of went into my last year really working hard at it. And, you know, I was somewhat successful. I think my last year I won, you know, 12 or 13 games, even though wins don't really matter, but I was out there quite a bit and I was able to, you know, have like a 360 RA and still minimize walks, have a decent amount of strikeouts and, you know, get hitters out for the most part. So I feel like I kind of want to, I wanted to

teach pitchers how to do that and help them do that. Did this job exist, say, a few years ago? Like when you were playing, was there someone you could go to who was sort of a pitching strategist or a few different people who kind of filled that role together? Or was it just not really there and you were kind of on your own to a greater extent? I would say I was on my own for the most part, but the guys I learned a lot from were actually a guy that I'll be working with this year is a guy like Zach Grinke, who him and I, we spent time together with the Angels and the Dodgers and we were able to, you know, work together on the computers, come up with game plans and, you know. We would bounce ideas off each other in between starts. Maybe I would ask him his best advice in getting this hitter out.

He would ask me to look at a specific hitter. We would go through them and come up with a good game plan. Also, AJ Ellis with the Dodgers helped me out a lot. There's also an assistant pitching coach with the Chicago Cubs. His name is Mike Borzello, who is probably the best that I've ever been around in putting together these game plans. It's really just a map. It's a map of if you do this, if you do X, you're going to give yourself the best chance to get the hitter out. you know, it's basic stuff. I mean, obviously, I'm not going to go through every single detail of what I'll be doing. But you know, it's just game planning and you know, how to start hitters off and finish hitters and stuff like that. So it'll be exciting. And I've already started, you know, working a little bit with the team. And, you know, I already started kind of trying

to get ready for spring training, which is a little bit different. I've never had a job like this. So I'm sure there'll be a lot to learn. And obviously it's a hybrid role, but do you sort of think of it as primarily one thing more than the other? Like, is it primarily front office or coaching or scouting, or is it just not even possible to untangle all of those things? Yeah, I would say it's more front office. When I was talking about this job with the Diamondbacks, one of the deal breakers with me at first was having to put on a uniform and going out and, say, watching bullpens and stuff in spring training. I think that would be difficult.

I'm not so far removed from baseball. It's only been a year, a year and a half. So it just feels weird to me to put on a uniform and go out there and coach. I never envisioned myself as a half. So it would be, it just feels weird to me to put on a uniform and go out there and coach. I never envisioned myself as a coach, but so I would say it's more kind of front office, but I would definitely be working with, with the guys, I would say probably my majority starting pitchers. And, but yeah, I see myself as I would consider myself more front office than, than coach coaching is a demanding job for a lot of different reasons. You know, you have to be there. You have to be with the team 183 days a year and make all the road trips. And, you know, spring training is a month and a half long and I won't be with the team, you know, the entire time. So coaching is a different kind of commitment. Just crazy,

you know, moving your family, all that stuff. I wasn't ready for that. So the Diamondbacks really worked with me and kind of what I wanted to do and we made it happen. And I think it's going to lead to really good things. One of our listeners asked if you had any Zach Granke stories you could share. I guess you're maybe going to make some new Zach Granke stories in your new job. But is he the kind of guy who, I assume that he already looks at all these things, he already thinks about all these things, and he's a veteran guy, and he's just sort of cerebral as it is. So do you expect that you can make a bigger difference with veteran guys who sort of have their routine already?

Like are there a surprising number of pitchers, even at the major league level, who could improve themselves just by devoting themselves to stats or just examining their own approach or whatever it is? Or do you think you could make a bigger impact with minor leaguers, let's say, or rookies? Well, I think, well, first part of your question is with Zach, I think that even last year when I was out of the game, you know, we talked in between starts and, you know, he had some times where he was struggling last year and, you know, he would bounce a few things off of me and i would try to help but i think that'll be a lot easier this year because i'll be you know closer to him and um you know with him he breaks down the data just kind of like how i break it down but it's still nice to have that extra kind of

opinion and even if it's one specific hitter that there there's a lot of really good hitters in in the major leagues. A guy like Corey Seager, a guy like that. I mean, you're going to look at all the data you want, and it's still going to be hard to come up with a way to get him out. So a lot of times it's nice to have someone else's opinion. And that's what I was getting into, like where I said Mike Borsello, a guy two years ago when I was with the Cubs. I can come up with the best game plan I wanted against a hitter, but there was seemingly no way to get him out.

And I would go to him and I would say, look, I'm struggling with this guy. Can you help me out? This is what I got. And then we would put our information together and come up with the best way to attack a certain person. So with him, that's kind of how it will go. Now with the other major leaguers,

I think the information is there. And a lot of it is just taking the time to go in there and know what you're looking at and you want to be as efficient as possible. You can't go in a video room and, and look at data for five hours a day. You want to be able to go in there and with a purpose. And if you sit down for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, an hour, you know, every day or a few days before your starts and start, you know, just looking at the numbers and putting together the best ways to get guys out. That's the way to go.

And a lot of pitchers, they're never taught how to, you know, unfold all this information. So that'll kind of be part of, I guess, my job too is, you know, just showing guys the basics of the best way that I saw to get hitters out and ways that I'll be showing them during the year to kind of give themselves the best chance to be successful. Did you consider at all before you took the job just going completely off the board and doing something non-baseball related? Like, you know, you're 36 and 36 year olds change careers all the time. It's not old, you know old by non-baseball player standards. And you have some financial security, you could just go out and do something completely different.

Did that cross your mind? Or was it an easy call just because you've spent your whole adult life in baseball and you have expertise and presumably you love it or you wouldn't have done it this long? So was that an easy call? It was not an easy call the options were you know obviously getting back into the game would have been the easiest thing for me just because i have so many relationships with a lot of different gms and and players and stuff so yeah you know what crossed my mind is starting a podcast i would be competing against you so that wouldn't that wouldn't be good. But, you know, you can only tweet so many things. And, you know, I take pride in providing some decent Twitter content every once in a while. And I've obviously had to scale that back a little bit.

But, yeah, you know, I would say I wasn't looking for a job. But being retired at 36 is definitely something different. And, you know, I got to take my kids to school every day and stuff that I've missed a lot being gone, you know, playing in Miami and Chicago my last year or playing in Washington in 2013. I missed a lot of things. So it was nice and it's been nice being home. And I'll still be able to be home quite a bit even with my new job. So that was also part of being able to take this job is

being able to stay at home but in regards to other career things no I never really thought too much you know I like I tweeted out when I first retired I had a little phase where I was playing my old Nintendo game so I beat Zelda and punch out and I was ready for the next challenge those are pretty big challenges I don't think I ever beat Zelda I got it when I was like six or seven and I was ready for the next challenge. Those are pretty big challenges. I don't think I ever beat Zelda. I got it when I was like six or seven and I was totally confused. Well, the easy part now

is that you can look on YouTube or something. Back in the day, we would have our Nintendo Power magazine. Yeah. And we would have to do it that way. So it was a lot easier. But beating Tyson was probably harder. Yeah. So when would have to do it that way. So it was a lot easier. But, you know, beating Tyson was probably harder. that players get in answering media questions and how do they say so much without saying anything and i always thought that it would be fun to be like the the go-to player in the clubhouse who

writers know they can get good quotes from like i never i never really like daydreamed about being good at baseball because that just wasn't really in the cards but i always thought if i could if i could just be like the go-to guy in the clubhouse who would give the good quotes, that'd be fun. That's a very writer sort of dream to have about baseball. But I bet that if I were actually in that situation, I would do that for about a week and then there would just be so many questions and they'd all start to sound similar and it would be really tempting to just start giving the cliche answers instead of actually thinking about it just so you can get out of there and go home. So what kind of training did you get or whether it was like formal training by the team or just advice from a teammate or how does that work these days? And what was your philosophy when you were answering questions? Like, were there times when you would just say, I could give a good answer to this, but I got to go. So I'm just going to give the boring one. Yeah. See, I think I got better at that as, as my career went on and I really prided myself the last few years, even when I was struggling, I would say it began 2013 with the nationals. I

really took a lot of pride in being, giving the honest answer to media. And I felt like they, if, if you were able to speak to them honestly and give them the non-cliche answers, they would be better to me. They would write a little bit, you know, if you had a bad game, they wouldn't be as harsh, you know? And if you had to get, if you had a good game, they would, you know, prop you up even more. So. But they also ask you more questions probably, right? They do ask you more questions. But as a starting pitcher, it was probably a little bit easier for me because you primarily talk the day that you pitch. Obviously, you have to talk the night that you pitch and you'll never talk the day before you pitch. It's kind of the unwritten

rule of starting pitching. So you never talk the day before you pitch. And, you know, there's, it leaves a couple of days in there where, you know, media guys would come up to, come up to me and ask me a few questions. But, you know, if it was something that I couldn't give an honest answer with, with some decent content in it, I just wouldn't even answer it. So I always pride myself in, in giving a good answer and an honest answer. You know, I think media too appreciates when a player shows a little bit of vulnerability, when they show that they know they're not perfect or they don't deflect blame onto others. I think people appreciate that when you take the blame and you can stand up and give an honest answer. So I tried to do that the last few years.

I think I did it pretty well. And I've always had a really good relationship with writers from all different cities and places. Do you think most players are suspicious and wary of reporters or are they just, it's tedious to answer the questions all the time? Because I know that like, you know, I guess there are some writers who are looking to write some sort of gotcha article and have a quote that makes the player look bad, but I think not out to get anyone, but is that what players worry about, that they'll slip up and say the wrong thing, and suddenly the writer will make them look worse than they are? Or is it more just the time commitment and the barrage of questions? I think so. I think when you're given an interview and you start talking,

and you maybe say a little bit too much, it might be too late. Once you give that interview, and there's been times where I thought I said too much. There's been podcasts I've been on where I thought, man, after the fact, hey, maybe I could edit out something. But there's no worse feeling than saying too much and then the media leaves your locker and you think to yourself i you know i don't like what i just said so i think once a player does that they're going to kind of put their guard up and that's where you get all the cliche uh answers and stuff and i think that but

i think that media they really appreciate the honest answers and you get a guy like even bryce harper he's a guy i feel like, you know, some people like him, some people don't. But I think that he gives a pretty good honest answer to most questions. And sometimes he probably does say too much. But I think that media and I think that fans appreciate that. And I don't think that the players really care too much. I mean, I don't think he would ever really call out someone or something like that. So I just think that people appreciate an honest answer, you know? Did you have anyone try to teach you how to talk to the media, either in a formal way or just, you know, veteran giving you tips?

No, not really. But I got better at it. I mean, I get plenty of cliche answers, especially early on in my career. I didn't care about giving an answer to a question that had some substance to it. I just didn't care. And toward the end of my career, it came to the point where I pitched six innings and the seventh inning would go by, then the eighth inning would go by, and the ninth inning would be happening. And I'd be thinking to myself, okay, let's see, what can I talk about? Or what do I want to talk about after the game? I would be thinking during,

at the end of the game, I'd be thinking, what do I want to talk about? What do I want to talk about, you know, after the game, I would be thinking during, you know, at the, at the end of the game, I'd be thinking, what do I want to talk about? What do I want to bring up to make sure that I give an answer with some, you know, good substance that people would appreciate. We've talked a lot about on the show about whether baseball players are funny, just, you know, like whenever a baseball player does something funny, like uses careless whisper as his walk-up song or whatever, it seems like 10 other players do the same thing and then it's not funny anymore. And you see the same sort of pranks over and over, like being in clubhouses for as long as you were, did you find that players were funny when they were trying to be funny? Like, you know, obviously they're funny unintentionally at times, but

are they, do they have refined senses of humor? Did they get your jokes? Ooh, that's a tough one. I would say for the most part, well, I think the other thing is you get a clubhouse with 25 guys, there's going to be a language barrier too with probably 10 of the guys. So the jokes aren't going to fly with some some guys but guys get the reputation of just uh of me i wasn't outwardly you know i wasn't a prankster it took me a long time to feel comfortable in a clubhouse to to be able to joke with people i think what especially like getting

traded and stuff you know say the last year with the marlins uh i i was getting comfortable with the marlins to the point where i could joke with guys and mess around and people understood my sense of humor. And then you get traded. I got traded. And going to a team like the Cubs, I had to be pretty quiet. And I didn't want to ruffle any feathers. I couldn't joke with guys.

And it takes time to build a rapport in order to be able to mess with guys. But, I mean, jeez, I've seen some really funny guys. Even with the language barrier, a guy like Juan Uribe with the Dodgers, I mean, jeez, I've seen some really funny guys. I mean, I'm just, you know, even with the language barrier, a guy like Juan Uribe with the Dodgers, I mean, he was hilarious. And, you know, I just, he, story comes to, stories come to my head about, you know, in the clubhouse, just, you know, him messing with guys. And he had some pretty good, well, him and, what was it, the Ryu, Hyunjin Ryu, they werejin Ryu somehow they became best friends neither of them spoke English very well

but somehow they became best friends they were a pretty good duo are there a lot of guys who are funny when you're their teammate but the outside world doesn't know they're funny because you know whatever they're not funny in interviews or they don't show off that side

of themselves when they're talking to reporters or when they're on the field or whatever but they're sort of sneaky funny in the clubhouse oh there's a lot of those guys yeah um that would be you know i would consider myself more of like an introverted personality where i'm not going to be it's it's not my jokes aren't wouldn't be like ha-ha funny. I really do have to be comfortable with someone to be able to joke with them. And I think that's the case for a lot of guys. And yeah, I never particularly got along with the loud, obnoxious, funny guys. And the guys that try too hard, I always appreciated someone that could kind of joke a little bit more quietly. And I'm more of a dry humor type of guy,

you know? Yeah. Does anyone come to mind that you can remember as sort of just a under the radar, funny guy? Jeez. I'm a little bit far removed now, but you know,

like we talked about earlier, like Zach, no one would really think he seems so serious, but we've laughed a lot. We've met once or twice this off season and he's he's a pretty good guy and i don't know i'd have that's kind of tough but i had a good relationships with a lot of guys and and uh i don't know i wouldn't i'd have to think about who who made me laugh in particular yeah well if you think of anyone maybe i'll get back maybe i'll get to that maybe i'll look through my text

message yeah and since you just brought up trades a minute ago, someone asked me to ask you about what I guess at the time would have been called the Mark Mulder trade, although maybe now it would be called the Darren Heron trade. At the time, I mean, that was kind of one of the most momentous trades of that decade and maybe in retrospect, one of Billy Bean's best moves. And how does a player evaluate a trade that he is involved in himself? Like, is it hard to be objective when you're looking at that at the time? Are you saying, you know, like I'm, people were writing at the time, you know, maybe Heron can be close to what Mark Mulder is, you know, Heron's minor league numbers were really good and maybe he

can just replace him. I mean, were you looking at it at the time and thinking this is lopsided one way or the other, or do players tend to overrate themselves when they're involved in trades and say, you know, like whichever team got them is getting the steal? Well, I've been traded a few times. That one caught me off guard, the first one. I would say my reaction to that one was, at the time, Mark Mulder was like a superstar. So getting traded for him was kind of flattering. And then also, but it kind of put a lot of pressure on me because in the deal, I was the only starting pitcher going back to the A's.

So it felt like I was going to try to fill his role. And Tim Hudson, I think Tim Hudson got traded either a little bit before or a little bit after that. so yeah um it felt like i was going to try to fill his role and tim hudson i don't i think tim hudson got traded either a little bit before a little bit after that but so they had kind of a clean house and i knew that that would be the first year where i would be able there was 2005 i was going to be able to go in and be a full-time starting pitcher which i had always dreamed of i never knew if i was ready for it uh 2003, I was not successful. I think it was three and seven with about a five ERA. 2004, I came up. I had one start, got crushed, and then went in the bullpen and ended up being pretty successful. And then 2005, I remember going to the A's and Billy Bean

telling me that he was going to put me out there no matter what. And he meant it because I started my year in 2005 and I was one in seven with, I don't even know what my ERA was. And I remember having a talk with Barry Zito and he really helped me out mentally, just keeping my mind right. And I turned that season from one in seven to 10 and seven and finished, I think 14 and 12 or something around there. And after that, uh, never really had, I mean, I struggled, but never like I did at the beginning of the year. So that was the, probably the time where I put the most pressure on myself just because I hadn't established myself as a big league player. I didn't know if I was, I going to be as, I didn't know if I had the capability of making 34 starts, throwing 200 innings. I didn't know if that was in me.

I mean, I just didn't. And I've said it before in other places. When I was playing baseball in high school, all I wanted to do was get a college scholarship. And then I was in college. All I wanted to do was get drafted. And when I got drafted, all I wanted to do was make it to the big leagues. drafted. And when I got drafted, all I want to do was make it to the big leagues. I had never thought so far along to like being a effective big leaguer for, you know, 12 or 13 years or whatever it was. Yeah. And that was just what a year or two after Moneyball. Was there any sense at the time,

any awareness that, you know, you were going to a team that was looking at players a different way or doing things differently? Or were you at all interested in that? Or was that just kind of too early in your career for you to be paying attention to that sort of thing? I would say the biggest things about getting traded to the A's were being able to wear white cleats. And I was encouraged to grow my facial and hair out as long as I could. So that was more of what I was into. I had no idea about money ball. I knew that the A's kind of had a reputation to like their hitters wanted to walk a lot. That's

basically all I knew, you know, and they didn't like when pitchers walked guys. And that's kind of as far as it went. Well, speaking of hitters, you faced 10 of the hitters on this year's Hall of Fame ballot in Major League Games. And at this time of year, a lot of columnists will start writing about whether guys were feared or how much they were feared or who was feared or not feared the most. And sometimes they'll quote players or sometimes they'll just seem to make it up depending on how they feel that day, I guess. So since you actually face these guys, and to refresh your memory, Bagwell, Bonds, Vlad Guerrero, Jeff Kent, Posada, Sosa, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Larry Walker, and you've faced these guys at all different points of their careers, and you faced Walker once. so maybe not not the the strongest memories for some of them but

but if you had to sort of rank them by intimidation or fear or or just name the the guys who you were most afraid to face who would you have close to the top of that list oh man well i would the one and two would be bonds and sheffield for sure um uh. Vlad Guerrero would probably be third. I mean, I guess I'm trying to think of a quick, quick stories about each. I had tweeted a bobblehead that I had of Barry Bonds. He, he hit his 719th homer off me and it was on a 3-0 pitch and I'll never forget it because I took a lot of pride in not having given up a home run to Barry Bonds I think this was 2005 or 2006 not sure and I had faced him a few times I actually faced him in my major league debut when I was with the Cardinals in 2003 so yeah you told that story to Joe now yeah I did yes but I was always so happy

that I never gave up a home or a home or to him and it was a 3-0 count and for some reason I thought that he wouldn't he wouldn't swing at it and I laid one in there and he crushed it and that's the only time he ever got me and I think and I struck him out probably two or three times and every time I struck him out he wasn't happy with the call it was always looking yeah um 2ks and uh 12 at bats appearances. Yeah. There was one strikeout. I kept a highlight reel of a few strikeouts or a few good outings on my phone or iPad or something. Striking him out was on there because I was pretty badass back in the day when I was throwing like 97-mana or front-hip two-seamers. And I got him on one in San Francisco San Francisco when I was when I was with the

A's and I was like I was like laughing when I was running off the mound it was pretty cool so that was a good one but uh Sheffield I mean I faced him kind of I think toward the end of his career and he did great against Sheffield I mean he he was splits in the dirt yeah if I if I could bounce a split in the dirt he'd swing at it but was tough, always tough facing him because he was all over the plate. He was right on top of the plate. And so if you threw a fastball away, it was almost like you were throwing a fastball right down the middle. But typically when a guy's on the plate, they want the ball close to them. So that's – it was always scary going in on him just because he was big and he waggled the bat back and forth and you know he'd

get right in there he's I mean I remember him staring at me and you know throwing fastballs inside I remember several times me throwing fastballs I mean he was right on the plate and I'm throwing him on the black and he this was back when I was throwing like I said like 95 96 and I'd thrown 96 on the black inside and he'd turn on it and rip it like foul over the third base dugout and just, just crush it. And it just, you just, there wasn't a fastball. I mean, he saw it and he was, he was ripping at it. So, but yeah, I did pretty well against him. I, I would bounce a split and he had, he was pretty vulnerable on that. As long as I got it there, I was pretty safe. But did that make him less scary after you'd gotten him out a bunch of times?

Not really, because I had to get to two strikes first. That was the hard part. Once I got to two strikes, I was all right. But no, he was scary. He was scary. I loved watching him. He was scary just watching from home. I always thought everyone always mentions that he was so quick and he would pull everything foul.

mentions that that he was so quick and he would pull everything foul and i always thought like at some point he would slow down enough that all of those fouls would be fair and he would be like even better but i don't think that that really happened but he was you know he was really good right up until the end god he was terrifying and like vlad guerrero too another guy like no he i i would say i struggled with him what do. I don't know if you have numbers. Yeah, Vlad hit you pretty well. He had like 1,036 OPS in 45 plate appearances. Yeah. I remember, too, one time I threw at Vlad on purpose. And he was the nicest guy in the world.

And I forget what happened. I was with the A's. He was with the Angels. And I think the previous day guys were hit or someone got hit and broke their hand or something like that like Vlad came up two outs nobody on in the first inning and I think I threw and I threw and I missed him like twice and I ended up walking him and I ended up when I I just remember how scared I was to hit him on purpose. And I actually ended up throwing behind him, but I was actually okay with it.

I was okay with not hitting him and just letting everyone know that I was trying to hit him. It was almost better because he's another guy. He's bigger than you think. His lower half was gigantic. And the problem with him was I, you could throw a split in the dirt and it didn't matter. He would still scoop it out and,

and rip it. And I always just tried to approach him like when he came up to bat i just think he's not gonna walk no matter what i would no matter what i throw he won't walk so just be careful the whole time but then you end up what happens is you you get 20 and you end up having to come in into him because you're just you're being so careful so yeah yeah he was he was pretty. But all those guys on that list, I forget the rest of the list. Yeah, well, you didn't put Manny in the top three, but Manny wore you out.

Wait, was he on the list? Yeah, Manny's on the list. Manny hit 500 against you. Okay, Manny Ramirez, him, Adrian Beltre, and Grady Sizemore are my three nemesis um I would the the one that stands out from Manny well there was a couple that stand out he came to the Dodgers and I think that was 2008 or 9 whenever that trade was and he single-handedly carried them and and broke our heart with the Diamondbacks and I remember him hitting a few homers. But the one homer that sticks out off me was, it was on my birthday in Fenway Park.

I think it was 2005 or 2006. And I was winning, I believe, 1-0 in the seventh inning. And he hit a two-run homer on my birthday. And I lost 2-1. And I remember walking home after the game from Fenway Park. That was one of the cool things about Fen walking home after the game from Fenway Park. That was one of the cool things about Fenway is you could walk from Fenway back to your hotel. And I was just thinking, I just can't. How can this have happened? I was dominating on my birthday. And, you know, Manny crushes me.

And I had to, you know, of course, make the phone calls after the game to my wife, to my dad. And, you know, talk about the game. Well, so when you face a guy that many times and he hits 500 against you you know obviously he's one of the best hitters of all time so it's not a bad guy to to have struggled against but when you have that history with a guy do you believe beyond all doubt that he has some sort of edge against you that you faced him a lot but it's 46 plate appearances which the stats would say means almost nothing in terms of projecting how you're going to do against that guy so do you believe that if you had been able to face many you know 100 more times somehow with the same skill level between you that he would have been better against you

than he was against the typical guy or was it just sort of you know random that he happened to to get you on those times that he faced you no if i would have faced him 100 more times you would have had 50 more hits for sure um there was no way i i threw him everything. I mean, I wasn't as good as scouting hitters back then, but I would go cutters off the plate, and he'd line them into right field. And I would use my split early in the count and go fastball late in the count. It didn't matter. Nothing mattered. And the thing with Manny was his eye was so good.

And you would go a few inches off the plate with your fastball, and you'd get into bad counts because you couldn't get him to chase anything. And then you get to 1-1, and I throw a really good split just below the zone. He takes it, and it's 2-1, and then my options are limited. So he was just so good at getting into good counts, and it was just impossible. There was just nothing I could do against him. I think at the end of my career, I just would go to my fourth pitch, the pitch that he would think that I would throw the least, like my curveball,

and I would just go curveball, curveball, curveball, just to give him a different look, but nothing matters. Do you think there was something about you that was just it aligned well with his strengths like i mean i'm sure a lot of pitchers who faced him felt like they were sort of helpless just because he was so good but you were much better than the average pitcher during that time and he was much better than the average hitter against you So was it just like something about your arsenal was not well suited to his strengths, do you believe? Or could it just be, I guess, that he happened to, I don't know, be in the zone on the days he faced you or just put good swings on your pitches or whatever?

I would say more the first thing you said where my arsenal just matched up with his strengths. It's just weird how baseball is. And no matter what I would do, I couldn't get him out. But take a guy like Miguel Cabrera, even at the end of my career, when I was throwing 85, 88, I felt confident that I can get him out. I'm not 100% sure what my numbers were against him, but I know they were pretty good. And I think a lot of it is mental like Manny knew Manny just knew going into a bat that he saw me good and I knew that I didn't want to face him and so part of it is the the mental aspect of it but you know it's just weird how baseball works like you know facing Beltre I just knew I had no chance but like I said facing a guy like Miguel Cabrera I seem to get him out

okay I don't know why or like a Dustin Pedroia I, when I faced him, not that he was an easy out or anything, but I just felt really confident that my, that my arsenal matched up with him and I would be able to get him out. But, you know, face a guy like Grady Sizemore who was better than people remember, but you know, just, there was nothing I could do to get him out. than people remember. But, you know, just there was nothing I could do to get him out. What about Bagwell? Because speaking of guys who just looked scary at the plate and, you know, by the time you were facing him, he was maybe a little bit diminished, still a good hitter. It was early in your career and you did well against him in the nine times that you faced him. But he looked pretty intimidating the way that he would stand at the plate and

just the size of him and the ferocity of his swing i think what the common thing with a lot of these hitters is them being on top of the plate you get these massive guys that stand all over the plate and it just feels like there's nowhere you can go yeah a lot of these guys had the like protectors on and the gear and everything that makes it even bigger. So you go like the few people that we've talked about, although Vlad was kind of far off the plate. But Bagwell, Bonds, Sheffield, these guys are right on top of the plate. And there was nowhere to go. Like I said, when I was facing Sheffield, you felt like when you're throwing a fastball away that it would be right down the middle so then I would set my sights a few inches further outside I throw the ball there

and it's a ball one and it's just it sets you up for trouble the place to go is you probably got to run the ball in on their hands but that's it's scary doing it to these guys but no Bagwell was he I faced him early enough in my career what I didn't even know what I was getting myself into facing him. I don't remember too much about him, but it was good. I'm glad to hear I was successful. Or you know another guy that was weird too is like Frank Thomas. He stood way off the plate. So it looked like you had so much room to throw him outside,

but he would stand way off the plate and dive, and he used like a 35-inch, 36-inch bat, and he could reach pretty much anything. So he would almost dare you to throw him a fastball away because that was just like right in his wheelhouse. Yeah. Well, the guy who had more at-bats against you than any other hitter is a future Hall of Famer, Ichiro, and you did incredibly well against him. You held Ichiro to a 229 batting average and a 250 on base and this is you know during a time when he's like hitting 330 every year so that's kind of insane how did you how did you do that oh I let Ichiro know too when I was on the Marlins I told

him I told him that I I owned him pretty good, and he would laugh about it. But with him, it was different. I would go into an at-bat and think that he's swinging. So always remember, whenever I was going to throw a pitch, just assume that he was going to swing at that pitch. So whether it be a cutter that I would throw, I would say if I was throwing a cutter inside, I would probably want to start it more like inner third than inner half. And I would try to run it in off the plate and try to get it to pull it foul. He was a guy too that he didn't,

I knew that he didn't want to walk. Ichiro, he wanted his hits. Even late in his career, even last year or two years ago, you get to 3-1, Ichiro wants to swing the bat. He does not want to walk. So I would try to use that against him and not panic when I'm not in a in a pitcher's count if it was 1-0 2-1 3-1 something like that I wouldn't panic I would still throw him you know a good quality pitch I wouldn't just lay it in there and you know with him it was weird too you get I would always try to get the left fielder to play a little bit in and the infielders would always be in and he was one of the few hitters too where I would elevate with some success but yeah it was I another guy when I when he came up to bat even though he hit 330 or whatever all those years I

felt like I was going to get him out yeah and you mentioned Beltre yet another future hall of famer I would think yes he had he had hall of fame numbers against you yeah I know I would I would joke where I would say I would be better off just stepping off and throwing the ball into the gap and giving him his double. That would just save everybody some time. So one of the listeners asked about, he said that he assumes that most big leaguers, even the pitchers, were the best hitter at some point on their team, whether it was little league or middle school or high school. Is that true in your experience, and was it true for you? And when did you feel like you were done as a hitter or you could just retire as a hitter and not ever have to do that again?

Hey, I hit.365 or something in 2010. Yeah. And I'm a career.200 hitter. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, one more'd bat and I would have been 199. I took a lot of pride in my hitting. Yes, I was always the best hitter on my team. In college, I DH'd a lot and I would bat third, fourth, or fifth or something like that. I never hit for too much power, but I was always a pretty good hitter I was not blessed with speed so that always held me back but yeah I growing up I was the guy that always played shortstop and pitched

a little bit and you know I always loved hitting and even when I went to college the big reason I went to Pepperdine out of high school was because they were going to give me the chance to hit and pitch which I always loved hitting. So I had some opportunities to go to other schools, but it would just be exclusively pitching. And I never saw myself as a major league pitcher in high school. So I wanted to hit and have fun in college. Yeah. We get a lot of weird hypothetical questions about pitchers hitting and hitters pitching. And you know, like who would have the upper hand if the typical hitter had to pitch

and the typical pitcher had to hit? Who would have the upper hand in that matchup? Is it more common to have a pitcher who's good at hitting than a hitter who's good at pitching? I would say it would be more common for a hitter to be good at pitching. Uh-huh. Just because hitting is is really

really hard i mean not that pitching isn't but guys a lot of position players mess around with you know sliders or curveballs and you even see when what's crazy is when a position player goes out and pitches in a you know 14 to 2 blowout or something i I remember Drew Butera, he'd go out and he would just, he'd be throwing like 86, 87, throw a little curveball, and then boom, 95. And it's just, that was always amazing to me. I think you see it more and more. I think you can see more and more hitters turn into pitchers

rather than pitchers turn into hitters. And I think you're seeing a guy, I think I was just reading about, isn't it Bethencourt with yeah uh-huh but the padres yeah i mean i saw some report on how he's starting to pitch and he was you know sitting 93 or 95 and i i could see i i just think that that's more realistic uh a hitter becoming a pitcher because if a guy can't hit i mean why not give him a shot maybe they're throwing hard and then you develop a second pitch and they could be a reliever or something like that. I just think the reverse of that is just too difficult. get penalized because they were using something or they were probably using something and you faced some of them most likely at a time when they were using something and in theory that put you at a disadvantage do you hold that against anyone did you at the time do you in retrospect do you care

was it just so widespread at the time that you don't feel like you can hold anyone accountable or punish them for it later? That's a tough question. Without getting myself into too much trouble, I would say that what was frustrating to me was like a known user of PEDs that would be really successful off me. I might as well say because I had tweeted about it a while back, but like a guy like Marlon Bird, who he got popped a couple times and I have nothing against him personally, but facing him after a suspension or two or even looking back at how he was so successful off me and then it came out that he did whatever PED he did multiple times and got suspended, I think, for a year. I don't know what his ban is now. But I think for me as a pitcher who was clean, obviously, it was frustrating giving up homers to guys that were known users or had admitted to it or had been busted for it.

And just because the playing level wasn't fair for me. And I was never really tempted to do anything like that though. So I kind of came up at the end of it too. I mean, I faced the, the Sammy Sosa who I don't, you know, I don't know if it, if he's done it or not, but obviously there's a lot of speculation. So, um, guys like that, and I kind of came up at the end of, of it sucks giving up homers to guys that we're using, but looking back now, I don't really hold it against them. I have nothing. I don't know who was doing it, but I know a lot of people were.

It's hard to pinpoint guys. I remember in 2003, my first year in the big leagues, I remember taking a drug test, and they said that this was the first testing. If it came out where X percentage, I think it was like 5% or 10% of people tested positive, that they would start testing the next year. So whatever that percentage was, they tested positive for it because the testing started after that. Right. We talked not long ago on the show about what the best baseball highlights would be.

Like if you knew that you were going to be a generic player, like you weren't going to be a superstar, what the coolest things you could do on a field would be. And, you know, it was like some stuff that was like actual performance based, like hit a home run that goes out of the stadium or something. But it was also just sort of some some sillier stuff like, you know, escape a crazy rundown or, or whatever, like, you know, the minor leaguer who ran through a wall and everyone watches that highlight a million times. It was like inspired by the, the Bo Jackson career who, you know, he wasn't the most distinguished baseball player, but everyone remembers him forever because he, you you know jumped on the wall to make a catch or he had a crazy throw or whatever did you have any moment that stands out to you in that way like i don't know not not necessarily i just the biggest game of your career or anything but

like a little moment that you think about often i guess other than striking out barry bonds which you've already mentioned but or something that you always kind of wanted to do, whether it was like as a pitcher or as a hitter, and you kind of always had it in the back of your head and maybe you got to do it and maybe you didn't. Well, I would say the first thing that comes to mind is how exhilarating it is to hit a home run. I hit two. The first one was off Bronson Arroyo. And that was a good one. It was in Cincinnati. It was like front row. But the second one I hit, the last one I hit, was off Chris Carpenter in Bush Stadium. I believe it was a two to two game in like the sixth or seventh inning. So we took the lead three, two. That was just an amazing feeling.

the sixth or seventh inning so we took the lead three two that was just an amazing feeling it's just it's just different i had experienced everything pitching kind of but just hitting a home run like that was was really cool the feeling off the bat is like you swing and you don't you don't even feel the ball hit the bat because you just connect it's so perfect that it just comes off the bat and being a pitcher you just kind of don't you're not I wasn't sure like if is it going to go out is it going to be a fly ball is it going to be 20 rows deep I just didn't I didn't know how to judge it and you know it went out pretty comfortably so so that was a I would say that that was probably one of the my favorite moments and a moment that I would say that I never got to experience that I would say probably a no-hitter or a perfect game or something like that.

I don't think I ever took one past the fifth or sixth inning at the most. I think I had like five and two-thirds one time later in my career, which is crazy. You would think that all – I think I started how many games? I don't even know, 300, 400, something like that, 2,400 innings. You would think that one time everything would work out and they would just hit the ball at everybody. It never even got close. So I guess one thing I wished I would have felt

was just the feeling of having a no-hitter or a perfect game through eight and running out there for the ninth inning to try to get three outs in a row. I think that's one thing that I would really have loved to feel. I guess maybe you were around the plate too much to keep guys from getting singles, right? You had the lowest whip in the major leagues one year, the fewest base runners allowed per inning, but I guess that was mostly because you weren't walking anyone at that point

in your career and maybe that made it hard to be really stingy with hits yeah I mean I guess so um I don't know is it Kurt Schilling I don't know if Kurt Schilling ever did I one time I think in Oakland we were Schilling was with the uh the Red Sox and he had won two outs in the ninth inning and it got broken up I think by by Shannon Stewart if. If my memory is good, I don't know. I'm sure that one of our listeners will. Yeah, I just Googled it and I see the highlight. Yeah, 2007, Shannon Stewart. Yeah, I just thought that was so nuts.

And then there was another one. I think it was Michael Wacca in St. Louis against the Nationals. And I think two outs in the ninth inning and Ryan Zimmerman hit a ground ball that went off of his glove, and that broke it up, I think. And that's just, I couldn't imagine the feeling of that happening two outs in the ninth inning. And maybe it's better I never took one in the ninth inning, now that we're talking about it.

Yeah, I don't think Schilling ever had a no-hitter either, which he's maybe similar. Yeah, and he has one of the highest strikeout-to-walk rates ever. Okay, well, we can wrap up with a couple quick business-of-baseball-related questions. Since you were a free agent a few times, someone asked whether there were considerations for you besides the money. Not that there's anything wrong with money being money, you know, not that, not that there's anything wrong with money being the main or even the only consideration, but we always sort of hear about this stuff from the outside and, you know, a player will talk about the school system or

he'll talk about whether the team seemed appreciative of him or, or the part of the country or whatever it is. And you always kind of wonder whether it's that or whether it's just that the team had the biggest contract on the table. So for you, what was it? Well, it was, I mean,

a lot of it, it was about the money. I think that when other things come into play is when the money is similar and you have to pick a place. So, or if you're going to make 13 million somewhere and not like where you're living, or if you're going to,

or make 11 million somewhere, but you love where you're living or if you're gonna or make 11 million somewhere but you love where you're living so you know how much is how much is loving where you live worth or how much is your family being close worth and you know even in my case sometimes where I there was a time or two where I took the most money or there was a time where I no matter what I was going to play on where I, no matter what, I was going to play on the West Coast, no matter what the money was. So even when I had signed with the Dodgers, I was coming off a bad year with the Nationals and I was adamant on staying on the West Coast because it was just a really difficult year for me being 3,000 miles away. And I would have signed with the Dodgers for much less than anywhere else in the middle of the country or the East Coast, just because I valued being close to home so much.

But if you would have talked to me earlier in my career, of course, I'm going to take the most money. I mean, you're only in your prime once in baseball, so I don't fault anybody for taking the money. And lastly, I mean, you know, your best seasons came in your twenties, which is the case for most players and the way that baseball's compensation structure works. You often don't get paid until those seasons are behind you. And in theory, at least, you know, it works out for some guys who can cash in eventually, but is it frustrating for most players? Was it frustrating for you to be putting up these numbers and know that you're not really being rewarded for them

in the moment? I mean, you know, you, you did okay overall, but like if you had been a free agent when you were 27 or 28 or something, you would have gotten some enormous contract, you know, and that's just not the way baseball works and it's collectively bargained and whatever. There are reasons that it is that way, but does that bother players? Did it bother you? Well, I mean, looking back, you know, I signed an extension when I was with the Diamondbacks that probably cost me maybe a100 million. I mean, looking back on it, throughout my career, I would say I played it safe. I signed a five-year contract with the A's when I had one year in the big leagues. But again, it goes into what we

talked about earlier, where I never saw myself as this. I came up never thinking of myself as this guy that was going to throw 200 innings a year and, you know, strike out 200 and win 15 games. I couldn't believe that they were offering me this much money. And then as my career went along, of course, I started realizing, okay, you know, I can do this. And, but even when I signed my extension with the, with the Diamondbacks, I took the safer way out. I, I took the extension. I didn't want to go to free agency and, and being a starting pitcher is kind of dangerous. You're one pitch away. I mean, everybody's one step away from blowing something out. But I always felt like I would do a disservice to my wife and family if I wouldn't take that, whatever it was, $30 million or something and try to hold out for more. I'd

rather, what can I do with 50 million that I can't do with 30 million? And I kind of always thought of it that way. So looking back now, I have really no regrets. I mean, part of the reason I was successful maybe was because I was comfortable. I was never really that close to free agency until later in my career. But it is kind of funny how when I was in my prime, in my 20s I was making I don't know you know what it was but I probably should have been making twice as much and then you know later in my career I was probably making too much and that's the way that's the way it kind of goes though you typically you get paid for what you've done or you know what you've done not what you're gonna do that's just

the way baseball works I think people are kind, or teams are getting smarter about that nowadays though. Were you interested in that sort of stuff during your career? Like, you know, being a player rep or paying attention to negotiations or that sort of thing? Or were you focused on being a good pitcher mostly? I was mostly focused on being a good pitcher, I would say. I tried to involve myself a little bit with the players' union. I always wanted to know what was going on. But yeah, I mean, it's hard when you just, I was in my prime. I was winning 17 games with a 3RA and anybody would feel invincible. I mean, you're just, you're on top of the world. I started the All-Star game. I was one of the best, you know, five pitchers in the game that year.

You're not really worried about what's going on with the labor agreement and stuff. You just feel invincible. Yeah. All right. Well, I am glad that you are still allowed to be a public figure sometimes, even if you can't host a podcast. It's good that you can still come on the occasional podcast. And it's always good to talk to you and people like listening to you and of course people know that they can find you on twitter at ithrow88 how hard do you think you throw now by the way if you had to go out there tomorrow here's a good story so i went this is a quick one about a few weeks ago i went to the

santa monica pier and my kids they saw there was this Pokemon blanket that was the prize. So they wanted me to do the thing where you throw a bean bag, and you have to knock the three bottles off the platform. The first throw, I didn't hit anything. Second throw, I knocked one bottle out. And the third throw, I knocked the remaining two bottles off the thing. You still got it. Hey, that's the remaining two bottles off the thing you still got it I I hey that's exactly what my wife said that I still got it and I got the blanket and I've I was on top of the world for like a good 15 minutes after that it was like striking up bonds and and

throwing the beanbag was like roughly the same level I mean it's right up there yeah it was amazing how fast do you think you lose the the velocity when you're not throwing all the time oh man i don't know i i would i don't think i would be i don't i definitely wouldn't be able to throw 88 that's for sure um i could probably run it up there in the the low 80s though my body it's's, what's funny is like my body feels great now, but as, as soon as I would start, I'm sure if I started a throwing program,

I would need to be hospitalized pretty quickly. All right. Well, hopefully you won't have to actually demonstrate anything with the diamond backs. You can just stand on the sidelines and tell people what to do. That is not part of my job now. All right.

Well, good luck with the job. Good luck walking the pugs on your off time. And I hope that you'll still occasionally be tweeting and talking. And it's always good to have you on. So thank you, Dan. Of course, man. Love the podcast.

Thanks. All right. So that is the end of the episode. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. Five listeners who have already pledged their support. Randall Woodford, Christopher Von Brecht, Wayne Goldstein, Steve Cassell, and Colin H. Smith. Thank you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash effectivelywild.

And you can rate and review and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. Thanks for all the suggestions for guest co-hosts while Jeff was away. Everyone who came on was someone a listener suggested. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, travel and weather in Portland permitting, Jeff Sullivan will be on the next episode, which should be up tomorrow, and we're going to kick it off with an email show. So please do send us questions, and there is a new email address for the podcast, which should be easy to remember. Instead of podcast at baseballperspectives.com, it's podcast at fangraphs.com. The old address will continue to work for a while as far as I know. So I suppose if you want to send comments or questions about old episodes, you can send them to the old address and they'll still get to me and sam but podcast at fangraphs.com going forward and jeff and i will both see those messages so we will talk to you soon and you're my brother you are older than me do you still feel the pain

of the scars that won't heal Your eyes have died But you see more than I Daniel, you're the star In the path of the sky