Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1081: The Not-Quite-Cold Call

Episode Date: July 8, 2017

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan discuss the correct all-time leaderboard of non-qualified offensive seasons, Carlos Correa’s complaint about Roberto Osuna, and the state of the race between the Brewers and Cubs. Then they call former big leaguer Glenn Borgmann, who caught for the Twins and White Sox from 1972-1980, to ask about being behind the […]

I stand corrected. I stand corrected. Hello and welcome to episode 1081 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you and brought to us by our wonderful Patreon supporters. I am Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs, joined as always by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Hello, Ben. Hello. How are you doing? Doing okay. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm excited because we just had a conversation with Mr. Glenn Borgman, formerly of the Minnesota Twins, Chicago White Sox, and briefly of the Cleveland Indians affiliate. We had a question that we wanted to ask him for about a week and a half or so. But before we get to that,

was there anything that you wanted to bring up? Yeah, well, first thing I want to correct the record on an email answer from our most recent episode. This was a question prompted by Justin Turner and his success this season. He is an all-star now, although he is not a qualified player, qualified for the batting title because he missed some time. And so we got an email asking about the best non-qualified seasons in baseball history. So I did some quick research as we were recording that episode to try to find that answer. Turns out that is not a great idea to do research while you're recording a podcast. So I missed my spreadsheet, got screwed up,

and we got an email from a listener named Ethan who pointed out that Hanley Ramirez had an excellent 2013 non-qualified season, and he was surprised that Hanley hadn't shown up on my list, and that's because my list was in error. So I now have the correct list, and the guy I said had the best non-qualified season, Gary Reneke, with the Orioles in 1982, now falls all the way to seventh on the list.

So it is no longer Gary Reneke and Bernie Carbo, but Ted Williams. Ted Williams, in 1955, played 98 games, 417 played appearances and was worth 7.1 war according to baseball reference, which is pretty amazing. And Ted Williams was pretty amazing. I will say that as I read those erroneous results, I was sort of surprised that Gary Reneke and Bernie Carbo would be at the top of any all-time leaderboard. I was sort of expecting a better caliber of player, not that they were bad players, but Ted Williams, I think, makes a little more sense. And the listener, he emailed us about this. Ethan just wanted to give an honorable mention to George Brett's 1980 season. He was the MVP.

He was worth 9.1 fan graphs were in 117 games. He had 515 plate appearances that year. So he did qualify by 13, I suppose, but he had a 198 WRC plus and led the major leagues in war despite playing like 70% of a season. So that is pretty crazy, but he's not on this list because he did qualify. Second on the list behind Ted Williams is actually Javi Lopez, 2003 with the Braves. He was worth 6.8 baseball reference war.

He just was incredibly great that year. He hit 328, 378, 687. That is 43 home runs in 129 games. He was a catcher, of course. So also after Javi Lopez, Rick Wilkins with the Cubs in 1993, David Wright, 2013 Mets, Johnny Mize, 1946 Giants,

and then Mickey Mantle in 1962. There are some other Hall of Fame seasons right below Renneke. Al Simmons season, 2012, Joey Votto. 1996, Scott Brocious shows up at number nine. Anyway, that is the correct list. So consider the record corrected. I had forgotten that in 2013, Hanley Ramirez got a little bit of MVP support after playing in his 86 games. He wound up finishing eighth on the balance.

So good for him, I guess. He is in a 33rd place tie on this list. So it's not an all-time great non-qualified season, but very good. Also wanted to mention, did you see this little unwritten rules exchange with Carlos Correa and Roberto Asuna? rules exchange with carlos correa and roberto asuna this was one of the the weirder examples of an unwritten rule flare-up this is the last out of the game on thursday carlos correa tapped back to osuna on a full count cutter and then osuna instead of making the throw immediately to first he sort of walked toward first he took a few steps toward first as Correa was jogging down the line. And then he threw over and Correa was mad about this.

He says, I don't know what's so special about that. Throwing me a 3-2 cutter, showing me up. I go home, relax. Next time I face him, he better not give up a homer. So he's mad that Osuna walked toward first instead of just throwing. It was like he wasn't treating the situation urgently enough because he was taking his time. The thing is, though, that if you watch the play and I just sent you the video, Justin Smoke was slow to cover first. So he wasn't there when Osuna got the ball

So I think that was part of it And then Klaus Correa wasn't running really at all Which, who cares, it was a three-run deficit And two outs in the ninth and no one was on So I'd rather probably have Correa take it easy And not hurt himself trying to beat out a meaningless grounder But point is, he was not at all rushing Osuna. He was barely jogging down the line. So this is just one of the weird

examples of how baseball players can annoy each other in ways that would not even occur to the rest of us. I don't think so. I hope that Grant is already blogging about this and is he implying that osuna in some way showed him up by throwing a three two yes cutter yeah this is like well i don't know but i don't think he's implying that i think he's saying that osuna was showing him up and there's nothing special about a three two cutter like that's he didn't have anything to show him up about but i think this is the pitcher equivalent of a slow home run trot, I guess. Like you're supposed to just put your head down and run around the bases. And if you field a grounder for the last out of the game, you're supposed to just throw the ball over there immediately.

So this is perceived as showing him up. I would not have even listed this as a possible unwritten rules violation, but now we know. The cutter happens to be a pretty new pitch for Asuna, so neat. Maybe I'll write about that next week. He's been very, very good. And now that the Blue Jays are trying not to be bad, then he becomes a more interesting topic. Anyway, I guess they're still kind of bad. Yeah.

So did you have anything? No. So I had prepared a backup topic for this podcast just in case. Yeah. So did you have anything? No. So I had prepared a backup topic for this podcast, just in case. Yeah. Just in case Len Borgman didn't want to talk about what was not a wonderful game for him or his pitching staff. Yeah. But that topic has gone by the wayside. And I guess given that we have a maximum of about nine minutes left on this podcast, it's probably not worth bringing up. So I'll just hold it for next week. Was it an NL Central related topic?

It was not an NL Central related topic. It was going to be a throwaway, boring all-star topic. So instead, we've hinted at this before. But by the way, everybody, the Brewers are leading the Cubs by four and a half games in the National League Central. Now, you wrote about the Brewers recently. You wrote about the rebuild. And I read it. It was wonderful.

It usually is and within the article the theme was essentially how the brewers were rebuilding successfully without ever bottoming out which is something that we saw the cubs do and the astros do and the phillies are actively doing right now right not necessarily on purpose but it is what's happening and the brewers were avoiding that by being in first place and being in first place over a team that last year was i think hands down the best baseball team we've seen in a very long time. And it was coming back this year with a pretty similar roster, same core, and the Cubs are under 500. So this is partially about the Brewers and partially about the Cubs. But here we are, the Brewers are at four and a half games up. They've already played 88 of their 162 games.

At this point, there was a report Fridayiday morning from john morosi who was on top of all trade good timing on your part right because you wrote your your brewers post today or i guess you probably wrote it yesterday and posted it today and in it you were talking about whether the brewers should be or would be buyers and you even mentioned sunny gray and jose quintana right gray and quintana and so so that was the rumor this morning From Morosi that the Brewers are Buyers and they are even looking at those two guys Yeah Brewers are doing in his words

Background work on Quintana and Gray Which I don't know what background work is but I assume That means looking at their statistics Yes looking up their fan graphs page Confirming that they are pretty good We've all done the Quintana and Gray background work It wasn't too hard to isolate those names because those are the two premium pitchers known to be available.

You know, Julio Tehran is having a terrible year and Justin Verlander might not be available, but also he hasn't been very good. So there's not a whole lot of pitching out there. I don't think the Brewers are actually going to go out and make a big splash, but you could defend it if they did because their window now is open, especially if they added a number one or number two starter because they are competitive now.

They are in front of the Cubs by a significant margin. They're only, what, two games, a game and a half, behind the Rockies in the standings, which means they have a shot at the wild card as well. And so who are the teams that you'd think would be interested in a cost-controlled quality starting pitcher? They're the teams who are trying to win now and down the road and who have payroll concerns.

Well, what team fits that more than the Brewers do? So as I reflect, I still am skeptical that the Brewers would pay the price for a pitcher like that because they are still trying to build out their value rather than necessarily consolidate. But you could definitely make sense of it. You just kind of have to forget that the Brewers are a rebuilding baseball team. And if you just look at them at their position in the Sandys in isolation, you think, yeah, that team would make sense. Right. And they have prospects, obviously. They have the lowest payroll in baseball,

so they could afford to add players. So yeah, in certain ways, it makes sense. But when I wrote that article about the Brewers' rebuild, I fully expected them to stop winning shortly after I wrote that article. And I said in the article, I asked David Stearns, like, you know, are they changing their mindset or whatever? And at the time, he indicated that they were not. But that was, what, a couple of weeks ago. And these were a couple of very big weeks for the Brewers when the Rockies were bad the Cubs were bad this is all kind of prompted by the Thursday win of the Brewers over the Cubs in a blowout so bad that John Jay had to pitch and so yeah I mean I still think the Cubs will

likely win the division I think that's still probably the safe bet, but it's a much less safe bet than it was until recently. And yeah, I mean, just reading some of the sentences in your articles were like inconceivable just a few months ago. Like when you said that on talent, the Cubs probably are the better baseball team. The idea that you would have to attach a probably to that statement at any time this year is just not something that any of you would have to attach a probably to that statement at any time this year is just not something that any of us would have expected a few months ago so yeah i mean the brewers are in a difficult position because they are currently without chase anderson who's trained as oblique and he's a pretty good starting pitcher it turns out and they don't have him which means

they have one good starting pitcher on the team right now so they will need to make some sort of addition but i think it's just absurd to think that they're going to considering that even a few weeks ago if i were asked about this i would still think yeah they're going to go to the deadline and they're going to look to trade pieces like ryan braun or matt garza well no because see if they're going to want to keep them so that they can win on on fan graphs there are two types i guess there are three but there are two main types of playoff odds and therefore projections that we have. And one is based on the usual projections that we have, which are a blend of the Steamer and Zips projections. Whatever.

If you look at those odds, then the Brewers are given a 16% chance at winning the division. And that's based on the players' track records up until now. There's another tab. It's called Season to date stats mode. And this is a projection that's based on how the players have actually performed this season through to this point. So this worries less about 2016 or 2015 or the preseason projections. This just looks at what's already happened. And if you look at the season to date stats mode, the Brewers are given a 58% chance to win the division. They're actually projected to win more games from here on out

than the Cubs. They're projected to win more games here and out than the Cardinals who are also projected to be better than the Cubs I don't know how to explain that but whatever season to date stats mode it knows more than I do I guess so it's not a stretch to say that not only are the Brewers in first place but they're in first place because they've played legitimately better baseball this year than the Cubs which is insane and it gets kind of lost because the Dodgers have been so good and the Diamondbacks and Rockies have been. They were like the surprises that got our attention first. And if it weren't for them, I think we'd be making a bigger deal of the Brewers.

But hey, look, there are the Brewers. The Rockies are sort of in a free fall and the Brewers are trying to catch them. And they're also leading the Chicago Cubs in the National Central. This is amazing. They're guaranteed to be leading the division at the All-Star break. Yes, this will be one of the more fun stories to monitor in the second half, presumably. And everyone's writing what's wrong with the Cubs articles. Matt Trueblood has a fun one up at Baseball Perspectives today about how you would fix the Cubs.

And as he acknowledges, probably you don't need to fix the Cubs. And what you should do is just leave them alone and they'll play better. But he came up with this one strategy of like a max defense lineup where you just start Happ in left field and now Mora in center, and you just go full defense and you have guys like Schwarber and Zobrist on the bench, and then these guys come in later in the game. And as Matt points out, it kind of makes sense instead of having defensive replacements at the end of the game, these days it makes sense to have defensive replacements at the beginning of the game, because starting pitchers don't strike out as many hitters as relievers do. So there are more balls put in play, and then you would have these guys on the bench to pinch hit. And he pointed out that Ben Zobrist is the rare hitter who doesn't

get better against starters the more times he faces them in a game. He's at his best in the first plate appearance, and he's also a better hitter against relievers than starters, which is weird over a career as long as his. Anyway, it's a fun idea. As Matt says, they probably don't need to do anything distrastic, but that would be one thing they could potentially do if they want to shake things up, as they say. So you have a chat to get to just setting up this call that we're about to do here. This was last week's email show. Glenn Borgman came up because we were looking up the games in which the most stolen bases were allowed. We're looking up the games in which the most stolen bases were allowed.

And Glenn Borgman, who played in the big leagues from 1972 to 1980, was a starting catcher in a game. August 1st, 1976, A's versus Twins. He was the Twins starting catcher in that game. The Twins allowed 12 steals in that game, which is the most, I believe, since the 1911 Giants. And eight different A's stole a base, which is also a record at least since 1913, which is as far back as the play index goes. So we wanted to know how this could possibly happen. We cold called Glenn Borgman last week. He was not home at the time.

He does know that we are calling now, but he does not know why we're calling. So it's at least a lukewarm call, I guess. So without further banter, let's get to Glenn. Hello. Hi, is this Glenn? This is me. Hi, Glenn. This is Ben Lindberg. How are you? How's it going? Hello. Yeah, I don't know. You guys want to do an interview or talk baseball or what's up?

Both, actually, I guess. Jeff and I do a show for a website called Fangrass. The show is called Effectively Wild, and we do a few have a few other questions about your career also, if you're willing to get to those. But the reason why we wanted to call you was last week, and as soon as I start explaining this, maybe you'll know the rest, but last week, the Cubs catcher Miguel Montero had a game where seven bases were stolen against him. And then he came out with some comments after the game, and he said, you know, he sort of blamed the pitchers a little bit for for not holding the runners. And then it became a whole thing in your career, although not a representative one for you. But in 1976, August 1st, the first game of a doubleheader against the A's, those were those crazy A's who stole more bases than any team since 1911. And they stole 12 bases in that game. And you were the catcher for most of it. So we were wondering if you recall that game

and if you could describe what that was like yeah i recall the game and uh i caught uh the first part of the game i'm not sure it was six innings or whatever and then weininger caught the back the back end of it and uh i think they pinched it for me and yeah it went to extra innings and then he he came in for the end and he gave up the stolen base, too, of course. It's not an easy thing. You know, you do the best you can back there, and the pitchers have to help you out, of course, but there's no need to throw the pitchers under the bus. I mean, that's their mechanics. Certain guys are fast to the plate, and certain guys are a little slower. are a little slower. There's a lot of other things that could have been done to slow them up, which I learned later when Gene Mock became manager.

And, of course, pitch out, throw the first, step off, change your timing to home plate, and all those things. So, actually, you know, the catcher just does his mechanics and gets the ball down there as fast as he can. And the more you rush and the more you try to be in a hurry, then the throws become wild. So it's not a good feeling to be helpless behind the plate, but you know what?

That's part of the game, and you just have to go along and do the best you can. And if you look at the record that you had in your career, you were a quite successful defensive catcher, of course. You set a record for fielding percentage, and you also threw out a greater percentage of base stealers than the league average over the course of your career. Was there something about that game in particular where things just got out of hand? Or was that just the matchup where you're going against the best stolen base team in

essentially baseball history? Yeah, I also wanted to mention too that the starter in that game was Pete Redfern. And he was also very successful over the course of his career in holding runners or at least in not having runners steal bases successfully behind him. So it would seem like a battery of you two who, aside from that game, were very effective. It's hard to imagine that that could have been the game with the most stolen bases allowed since 1911. So we're curious about how it happened. I thought Gold started the game. Was it Redfern? Yeah, it was Redfern. He pitched six and two-thirds. And then it was Tom Johnson and Tom Bergmeier and Bill Campbell came in and got the win at the end. I don't know if you remember how that game played out, but I think the Twins came back three times and it went 12 innings and you scored three runs in the bottom of the 12th to win it. And that was part of a five-game sweep of the A's that year. And that's pretty much what

knocked those A's out of the playoffs or kept them out of the playoffs that series. Yeah, we had really good success in uh that year against the age for some reason i think we beat them about 14 out of 18 if i remember right wow and uh but we we kind of had their number but that just was a coincidence because they were very good but you know what it's just a combination you know it's just one of those days where you know i'm not sure if i remember exactly you know how the game went pitch by pitch but you know they could have been running on pitches that are in the dirt you know they could have been running on pitches that are in the dirt. They could have been running, got big jumps,

and maybe it was partly my fault for throwing wildly, or I'm not sure how it really went because it's quite a while ago. It's not a great feeling, but there's no sense. You didn't have to go to make a big thing out of the pitchers. He kind of went to extremes, and then he apologized, which, you know, that wasn't what should have been done. You know, a few other players weren't happy with his comments and whatever, but he's with the Blue Jays now.

Right. Matter of fact, the ironic thing about that is I coached John Gibbons in 1982 with the Mets in Shelby, North Carolina. So John and I go way back, and I actually, you know, coached him on how to, you know, to block balls and to footwork, the technique of throwing guys out and, you know, how to call pitches and stuff like that. So it's kind of an ironic thing that that happened like that.

So he's with the Blue Jays now. So, as a matter of fact, I did watch some of the game the other night when he caught, and they came back, and Patantas had a little wild thing there, four walks and he ate thin, and yeah. But, yeah, I wasn't sure how many stolen bases, but that's something I'm not proud of. Yeah, the Twins had five errors in that game as a team, and somehow you guys won. It seems like if you allowed 12 stolen bases and five errors, that's not a game that you would usually win. So it was kind of a crazy one.

And actually, Redfern picked off two guys, too. Did I have an error, or did I? Yes, you had one. Oh, jeez. You guys are a bundle of joy here today. Yes, I know. You got any positive thoughts on there or what? Just that we won the game, I guess. Yeah, right.

Five-game sweep. So, yeah. Well, we just wanted to ask about that. We do have some other questions, but it was just such a strange outlier. Like, even those A's never had a game like that, and you certainly never had another game like that in your career. So we wanted to see if there was... It was a weird day, and I guess it was Bill North.

Was Campanaris on the team? Yeah, he stole three that day. Bill North, Campanaris, who else do they have? Dick Green, I guess. I don't know if he got any. Let's see. Yeah, Bill North had two Campanaris had three, Don Baylor had one Larry Lintz had one Matt Alexander, who was their

Sort of dedicated pinch runner I think he was the one who came in and still left Weininger, and then Gene Tennis had one, Claudel Washington Had two Phil Garner had one So it takes a long time even just to read all the names. Yeah.

Well, I think maybe two or three were double steals maybe. I think that's what happened too. That's what that adds up. That's, you know, six right off the bat. Yeah. So, but yeah, it wasn't a great day. And like I said, I remember Redfern, though, he was a little slow. So, you know, of course, it's everybody's fault.

It's not just the pitcher. You know, like I said, I learned, of course, it's everybody's fault. It's not just the pitcher, you know. Like I said, I learned a lot more when Gene Mock came in, and, you know, we did a lot better on the, as far as the transfer of getting the ball to home plate and holding runners close and pitching out. He had a technique to pick up a little technique out of the runner on what he did as far as giving his attempting to steal second base, whether he fidgeted a little bit or he had a little technique to pick things up. So it was nice to have that behind me and do it that way.

Whether, let's see, 74 was what, Cluelessy yet? Was it 74 or 5? 76 is the game we're talking about. Oh, yeah, that was Gene Mock, too, I think. He was the manager, I guess. Yes, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what happened that day.

It didn't work, I guess, whatever we were doing. Yeah, I mean, I guess when you were facing those A's, maybe you just knew coming in that you would have to be kind of at the top of your game and that they would be testing you because they were just routinely doing things like this, if not quite to this extent. And who was the manager? Tanner? Yes. Chuck Tanner.

Yeah, I remember Chuck. He was White Sox and then A's or A's, then White Sox. I think it was White Sox A's, if I believe right. So, Jeff, you had a different question. Yeah, if we could, I guess, leave what would be an unpleasant memory behind and go into something that might be a little more memorable, but complicated. There's a certain picture I'm looking at and you're running interference here. We've got Ron Jackson, who's holding back Camila Pasquale. It was a big brawl in 1978 between the twins and the angels.

It seems that twins set off Bobby Gritch. I was wondering if you remember how that sort of came to materialize because we've got a brushback pitch, but I don't have any sort of narrative for what might have led up to that. I think Roger Erickson was pitching when Grich was hitting, and then he was coming inside a little bit, and the ball got away, and then I'm not sure what. I guess he was going toward first base, and I think it was ball four, actually. And I kind of didn't know if he was charging the mound or not.

Of course, that's a live ball. And I went for the ball, and then I was waiting for him. You know, it was my job to stop him to go out to the pitching. Go to get the pitcher, and I turned around. He wasn't going, and then I turned around and got picked the ball. But look, in there he ran out to the home plate, from home plate to the pitcher's mound. And I guess you got me kind of like right behind him.

I think I did see that picture. Then both benches came, and we had a big pileup on the mound. Yep, that was – he was with the Angels, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It looks like Camilo Pascual was very desperate to get involved in this fight. I understand your role was to be the peacekeeper, but this is a brawl that you don't really see the same type of brawl anymore. I think players are a little more hesitant to throw their bodies around,

throw their fists around. Gritch laid in several. There were some haymakers. I think Rod Carew got a few punches at Rich's head. There was a body check. Yeah, this one got a little out of control. Yep. I don't know why Camille was running all the way out there because he wasn't a very big guy.

But, yeah, I remember him. He was the pitching coach. And, yeah, it was just about both teams. Everybody was 50 guys on the mound just about. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Was there more bad blood of that sort in those days? I guess was that more pre the fraternization that you see today

or had that already started by then? No, I don't think there was too much bad blood between the Angels and the Twins. It just happened, I guess Bob had a little bit, got irritated with Roger a little bit, and, you know, he liked to ball out over the plate. So, you know, we tried to come inside a few times, and I guess we went inside too many times. So he decided to do something about it, I guess,

and that's what happened. But Roger was, I think it was his first or second year. I'm not sure. He was a pretty young guy then. I also wanted to ask you, But Roger was, I think it at least were his best seasons ever. And we're talking about one of the best pitchers ever. So I was hoping you could describe what it was like to work with him at that time. Yeah, I came up in, I think it was July of 72,

and my first game was in Comiskey in Chicago, and I think he started the second game, and we won the game 2-1, and of course he had that great curveball, and later on, I think when he went to Pittsburgh, he used, I think, a sinker a little bit more than when I caught him in 74-5, and actually he was a better pitcher for Pittsburgh because, you know, he didn't have to strike

everybody out. He got a few ground balls on first pitches because he threw a sinker, but his curveball was unbelievable. You know, he just, it's hard not to just keep calling curveballs because, you know, nobody could hit it. And, um, he's just such a, a gamer and a winner. And, you know, he gave you 200% every time he went out there and and you could see his his training and spring training he was always the first in sprints the first to run around the

field and you know it was a pleasure to catch him and and uh it's too bad that uh you know you couldn't catch a guy like that every night you know it was just such a pleasure to him and uh jerry kuzman i caught had i was lucky enough to catch him when he came over in the erosco trade and jerry was just i mean you could sit in an aluminum chair behind home plate and and not even move it that's how that's how control wise he was and you know he threw maybe six eight sliders a game and every time he wanted to throw a slider he needed a double play and out of the the six, eight sliders, maybe he got three double plays out of it. So he's just so experienced.

So, you know, it's just very, very nice to catch a guy like that. Yeah. Well, I'm curious about what the perception of Bly Levin was at the time because if you look at some of the advanced stats that we have today, you look at wins above replacement, that sort of thing, they say that Bly Levin was the best pitcher in the league in 1973, in part because he threw 325 innings, which is just crazy in retrospect. But he finished seventh in Cy Young voting that year. Of course, he only ever made two all-star teams. He never finished higher than third in Cy Young voting. And then after his

career, when he was on the Hall of Fame ballot, there was a long battle to get him in between people who were looking at some of these more advanced stats that said, oh, he was incredible. He was one of the best pitchers ever. And people who were maybe looking at his win-loss total, which was good, but maybe not good enough to get him in on an early ballot. So what did you guys think of him at that time? Were you thinking this is, you know, the best pitcher in baseball? This is on the short list of the best pitchers in baseball? Or did you not think of him that way? Did he not have that reputation in the moment? No, I thought he definitely had the reputation and he had the background and everybody knew, you know, when you were going and you were the other team and who was pitching, Blot 11 was pitching, you knew you were in for quite a battle. So I just thought maybe it just took a little longer,

maybe being from Minnesota, you know, sometimes being from Minnesota, you don't get the recognition when you're playing in New York or Boston or L.A., but maybe that had a little bit to do with it. But you knew in the long run that it was going to happen. So I'm so glad it did. And like I said, I was fortunate to catch a lot of games with him. And how many shutouts did he have? He had a lot of shutouts.

Yeah, that year, 73. Yeah, he led the majors with nine shutouts that year. Nine shutouts. Yeah, that was, you know, Phil Roof and I were the receivers. And I think Mitterall was there for some time and and randy hunley i'm not sure how it broke it down but you know we always were looking for that shutout and and you know of course he was too and and nowadays forget about shutouts you know you don't see anything like that because they're out of the game and right seventh inning and unless the pitch count is right around 95 or 105 or something like that.

They don't go much. You don't see 125, 130 pitches like you used to see. Yeah, he started 40 games that year, and he finished 25 of them, which is amazing. But I think when he went to Pittsburgh, though, he sunk the ball, and he developed a little slider and change up. So I think he became an even better pitcher. I don't know what the records were in Pittsburgh, but when he went there and they won the series,

and we are family and all that, I watched and I noticed sinking the ball because you usually throw a four-seam fastball or curveball, and then he always worked on them other two pitches, but when it comes down to it, nitty-gritty, you went with the curveball or his four-seam fastball, and then he developed that other thing. Then you could go seven, eight innings and not have 120 pitches.

You'd have 85, 90 pitches, which is the way you've got to do it. Being a catcher, you've got four pitches to work with is a lot better than two. So, and I think maybe he saved his arm too by throwing all them curveballs later on in his career. You talk about catching Bly Levin and, and of course, Kuzmin, who could just put the baseball in a teacup. And then they're, they're, those are pitchers who are going to have better command of the ball than, than other pitchers on the staff. And so I was curious what your experience was like as a catcher. Of course, you're, you're trying to catch pitches as firmly as you can you're trying to get the best strike zone you can but how frustrating was it to catch a pitcher who might have been a little more wild how much more difficulty would you have had

trying to sort of get those borderline calls sort of uh at the bottom or or the edge of the strike zone sometimes it's difficult sometimes not you know the part of being a receiver is that you don't want to be crossed up, of course, but certain guys, you know, if you throw in a slider, the sliders are all, you know, in on the lefty, away from the righty. When you're sitting out there, you know, looking for a slider on the outside and he throws it down and in and it backs up or, you know, if they're in the dirt or over people's heads and just –

it's just hard to get comfortable back there and know, you know, you have to try to bring a pitcher along. Sometimes in the beginning of the game, he won't have his curveball or slider, and then all of a sudden the fourth, third, or fourth inning, he'll throw one and then he'll find it. So now it becomes part of your repertoire to have the slider into the program.

But before, every time you throw a breaking ball, it's a hit or two. If you know you can't get the breaking ball over, of course you're sitting on the fastball. It makes it a lot easier. But, you know, there's a few pitchers that, you know, you have to kind of guide along a little bit and build them up. And there's a few you have to kick in behind a little bit.

So, you know, it's a lot easier if they're kind of outside half, inside half, you know, or up or down or whatever it's a lot easier to catch the ball and know what you're doing because before you go into a series you know you always get the lineup and how you want to present each pitcher with the hitter you know certain guys like certain pitches in certain areas so you try to learn the lineup and you know how to mock was always good at that he'd always give you a sheet of you know you go into kansas city there'd be a whole here's the here's what i want done you know to brett to mayberry to you know guys like that oh i mentioned karu and and he was in the news

this week because each row just passed his hits record for most hits by a player born outside the united states and you were a teammate of cruise in 77 when I think he was probably the best player in baseball that year. And he made that run at 400. What was it like watching him day in and day out at that point in his career? Yeah, it was like a real great experience to watch him hit the ball and run. He just looked like he wasn't even giving it an effort, but he'd be down the first 3.8 seconds or something and and he wherever you put him he could play first base second base he probably put him in the outfield he could play there and it was a great experience to be on with

rod on the team and i just noticed he threw a first pitch out in minnesota after his heart transplant and he's had a lot of troubles and hopefully you know he's straightened out now and he'll be on a mend to to live on another long life now i wanted to ask you because you were with the twins when lyman bostock came up and i wanted to see what you remembered of him what he was like as a teammate and and he really you know made such huge strides as a player just in those first couple years that you played with him of course people have always wondered what he would have gone on to do as a as a player but you saw him come up and and get established so i was wondering what you remembered of that yeah he was he was like the uh the next rod carew he came up and used the

whole field he hit the ball you know left, left field, center field, right field. He could run, played a great center field. And, you know, he always wanted to learn. He always, you know, talked to Rod about hitting and talked to Tony Oliva about hitting. And, you know, it's a shame what happened to him. And, you know, I don't know what happened really to detail to that, but, you know, he was going to be, he could possibly be another Hall of Famer. to that, but he was going to be, he could possibly be another Hall of Famer. I also wanted to ask you, the pitchers that you had the most at-bats against in your career were Frank Tanana and Nolan Ryan, so not easy assignments. There's two beauties for you. Yeah, this was pre-injury Tanana mostly also, so he was unhittable at that point in his

career. So what was unhittable at that point in his career. So what was your strategy against Nolan Ryan? You faced him 32 times, or at least you had 32 at-bats against him. Was there anything you could go in looking for, or were you just hoping for the best? Well, I did pretty good, but I hit like 280 off him or something. Yeah, you did. Like 10 for 32 or something. Yeah, you did well.

Yeah. He struck me out i think 10 times also but yes that's right the thing about nolan was you know the fastball you know sometimes these guns nowadays and i look at the yankees and they got the tantas throwing 100 and chapman 100 and 102 and they're hitting the ball they're pulling the ball down a third base like i don't know sometimes i have to question these guns i don't know they just i mean nobody threw harder than nolan ryan i mean how hard do you think he threw i don't think he threw 100 no so whatever that's another story but see when nolan the fastball i mean it was

great but that's you know you weren't worried you were worried a little bit about it but the curve ball and the change up i mean he come with a two two change up with the same arm speed as a fastball and you were like come on you know it's like but luckily for me i he fell behind a few times on me and you know trying to get me out with the breaking ball and change up he fell behind a few times and i was lucky enough to get a get some hits off him with the fastball and maybe hung a few change-ups or something. The curveball was almost the Bly 11 curveball. That's what killed you. You know, that's the part where he had all them strikeouts because, I mean, major league hitters are going to hit fastballs.

And when he throws 2-2 curveball, 2-2 change-up with that arm speed and the grunt, I mean, you know, that's like overpowering. It's like out of this world. And then Tanana, I got called up. I was up 72, and I went back to Tacoma 73, and I got called up for the last month, and we finished the season in California, or we were up there in September, and, you know, here I am getting called up, and who was pitching? Well, we got Singer, Tanana, and Ryan.

I said, oh, my goodness. You know, so, but Frank, he threw the ball. Oof. He was like kind of like a sail guy, you know, a slinger and good curveball, over-top curveball, though not like a slur of like sail throws. And then he hurt his arm, and, you know, he still didn't learn how to pitch. But, yeah, I faced those guys a lot of times. I remember I hit off Splittorf a lot.

Yes. When Weininger came along, then I was more of a – when I played, I played mostly against the lefty, even though he was a switch hitter. But Gene got me in the game, you know, and you've got to give Weininger a break once in a while. Yeah, I actually wanted to ask you about that, not to return to a negative note, but in 76, the season we started with, that was the year that Weininger came up and he was 20 years old and he had played at a ball the year before. So that was a big jump, but he had a

470 something on base percentage. And I guess he was a top prospect at the time and finished in the runner up and rookie of the year voting. And so suddenly, you know, you were the veteran, but there's this new hotshot kid catcher in camp, I guess. Was that a difficult transition for you to to be kind of relegated to backup duty at that point? Well, I had a pretty good year in 74 and in 75, I got run over there. I had not a great year. And then he came along, and then Gene came along. Mark came along at the same time, 76.

Yeah. Mark was, you know, lefty-righty, righty-lefty, you know, whatever. He liked to platoon people, and, you know, Weinecker was a switch hitter, so you didn't have to platoon him. He was 20 years old, and he came up, and Gene batted him fourth between Carew and Heisel, so I'm batting ninth behind Louie Gomez. So he did a great job with the kid, and Butch was a good player.

I was sitting there, and I'm like, what are we doing here? But what can you do? You do the best you can, and you play. But he was a good player, Butch. You do the best you can and you play. But he was a good player, Butch. He really came around quick. And Gene Mock was a good manager.

And it's good to be a rookie when Gene's around because he lays things out for you. Everything was laid out. And he did his homework on the other team. And he had a lot of experience. So he was a good manager. You were drafted twice in 1969 in 1969 by the giants and the pirates i assume you just elected not to sign then you uh you went to uh university of south alabama set some hitting records that i believe still actually stand at the school miami day two years in florida junior college then i got drafted by the giants after my second year i'm not sure what round seventh or eighth round

or whatever sixth round sixth round and stanky came along and you know he looked at me we were in bravington florida playing some school over there and uh i kind of i knew the name but i had to go look up the history a little bit you know about with eddie and everything but he said you know i want you to come to south alabama and And then I'm saying South Alabama, where are we going? It's whatever, but it was a good move. It was one of the best moves I ever made. I went over there, played for him, and then I got drafted again the following year by the Pirates.

But I think that was a mistake because I wasn't, I had to have four years of school or 21, and I was neither. So I'm not sure if that was back then how that worked, but, uh, I think that was kind of like in between, you know, that age limit where it didn't, it wasn't back then you had to be 21 or finish your fourth year or something. I'm not sure. I'm not sure that one, but anyway, then I got drafted by, um, the twins and secondary phase, which is players that already been drafted. And, uh, I think it was like ninth pick in the first round. I think that's the fifth pick, something like that. Yeah, it was the ninth pick. I was curious

about that because you were drafted so high in 1971. And then within a calendar year, you were playing pretty regularly in the major leagues. And now I know in 1973, you spent some more time back down in Tacoma. But was that more commonplace back in the day, or did you just kind of fly through the minor leagues? Because even a guy like Buster Posey wound up spending a year and a half or even two years in the minor leagues more recently before he got established in the majors, but you did not take that time at all.

Yeah, I was pretty lucky. But like I always tell everybody, you know, if you sign out of high school, you're going to spend most of the time, you're going to spend three, four years in the minor leagues. And if you sign out of high school, most of the time you're going to spend three, four years in the minor leagues. If you sign out of college, I think that gives you maybe a two-year minor league experience because college baseball is pretty good when it's down south. When I came, I signed, and then I went to A-ball. Then Dempsey was actually in Charlotte in AA.

I spent two months in Wisconsin Rapids and got called up to Charlotte because Dempsey had to go into the reserves. He was in the National Guard. So he had to go way too weeks. So they wanted me to fill in for him. I was doing pretty good in A-ball. So I went up to meet the team in Charlotte in Memphis. We met the team in Memphis and actually played and won the whole Southern League in 1971.

And that was just like unbelievable. I couldn't believe the whole Southern League in 1971, and that was just, like, unbelievable. I couldn't believe the caliber of baseball in Charlotte and double-A baseball was, like, unbelievable. I thought I went to the big leagues in Mayball. So then in the following year, I'm figuring, well, I'm going to go back to double-A, and Dempsey's going to go to triple-A, and he made the big club, and they sent me to triple-A. And then things didn't work out, and then think they they swapped us rick went down to

tacoma and i came up i think july 1st of 72 and i did okay i mean i hit like i think it was 230 something and i didn't i didn't throw the ball well i i made quite a few errors i think 12 errors i think in three months so they figured it was too early for me or something i don't know so i went back down in 73 and spent the whole year there and came up in September. And then 74 was, they got Hundley, Randy Hundley. You remember when he came over? I don't know. You don't remember, but if you could look at the stats, he came over and they traded middle wall for Hundley in 74. Then Hundley hurt his knee. And then I became the number one catcher in 74 and they got rid of Hundley in 70 after and they was fill roofing myself in 75. And then I didn't have a great year in 75, and then that's when they brought Weinecker in 76.

The last thing I wanted to ask, and I've never really gotten a clear answer to this, and I don't know exactly how the umpire relationship was in the 70s, but did you have any particular feelings about the umpires who would make physical contact and lean on you as a catcher versus those who would not be so hands--on you mean like put your hand on in my back and stuff yeah yeah right uh yeah there was a couple guys who well back then we had the balloon too so you had a you know some guys had the inside protector and some guys used to use the outside protector a few guys you could feel you know leaning against you with the – it didn't bother me. I don't think it was a problem.

We got along most of the umpires. It wasn't – there wasn't any, you know, umpires that were – everybody yelled and screamed at or whatever. But it was, you know, there was nobody that leaned against me that had any change in my stance behind home plate or any restrictions or anything like that. I really appreciate your time. We saw your name because of that one game,

but then when we looked you up, we came up with a bunch of other questions. All right. Well, nice talking to you guys, and we'll look for the article with the 12 stolen bases with my name on it. Yes. All right. Make sure you put Wanager's name there, too. He was a culprit, too. Oh, yes. Yeah, no. He gave up one. all right. Make sure you put Wanager's name there, too. He was a culprit, too.

Oh, yes. Yeah, no, he gave up one. All right, well, we'll talk to you. All right, thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. All right, that was fun. A little more background.

Those mid-'70s A's, of course, had been extremely successful, a dynasty under Charlie Finley, but then they had a lot of their players leave or get traded because free agency started, and Finley either couldn't keep them or knew that they didn't like him and that they wouldn't stay. So that year they just stole a crazy number of bases, 341, which again is the most by any team in the modern era other than the 1911 Giants, who had six more than that. But they never again did what they did on that day, August 1st, 1976. They did have a nine-steal game, which also came against the Twins, actually, but that was with Phil Roof starting behind the plate. They had an eight-steal game and a couple of seven-steal games.

I didn't even have the heart to tell Glenn that he also went 0-3 in that game at the plate, grounded it to a double play, although he did walk, and the A's starting pitcher was Vida Blue, so no shame in that. I have a quote from then-owner of the Twins, Calvin Griffith, who said he had never seen a game like that one. Quote, you don't expect to win a game when the opposition steals 12 bases and you make five errors. I've never seen a team come back three times from two run deficits and then win the game with three runs like we did in the 12th. Big crowd, 22,921, proved to me that this area still wants baseball. All we have to do is win, and we'll start drawing again like we did in the earlier

years. The enthusiasm of this crowd was as good as any I've ever seen at the Met. The standing ovation they gave Tony Oliva and the team after we won the game in the 12th was very encouraging. And Charlie Finley, the A's owner, said of that series, in which the A's were swept in five games, when you're a fan, you can laugh at this, but when you're an owner, all you can do is cry. The way they played against Minnesota, losing all five games was a disgrace. I can't believe it happened. A lot of that info, by the way, comes courtesy of my friend Stephen Goldman, writer for FanRag, who helped me with research.

If you're not listening to Steve's podcast, The Infinite Inning, you should. It's a really great baseball show. So I'm glad we could talk to Glenn. He, by the way, worked at Meadowlands Racetrack for 26 years, retired not too long ago, lives in New Jersey, spends a lot of time with his family, has a grandkid who's a catcher. So maybe we'll see another Borgman in the big leagues someday. So our interviews this week, Constructing Coors Field, Beat Baseball, and Glenn Borgman. Very Effectively Wild week.

You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. Five listeners who have already pledged their support include Steve Simpson, Chip Holden, Chris Ruppar, Michael Sweeney, and Mike Miller. Thanks to all of you. Quick reminder, Jeff and I have a live podcast taping coming up a month from today in Brooklyn at the Bell House, 7 p.m. on August 7th. You can and are encouraged to buy tickets now, which you can do at thebellhouseny.com. I will link to the page in the blog post of Fangrass and in the Facebook group. Tickets are only $15 and we have promo codes. If you use the promo code TheRinger or the promo code Fangrass, it will save you $5, which is a third of the ticket price.

So it will only cost you $10. I don't think you can combine the promo codes, so you can just choose your favorite site, I suppose. But if you're in the area, please come. I'm sure it will be fun. And tickets are already selling, so if you know you want to come, reserve a spot now. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild, and you can rate and review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for editing assistance. Keep your questions and comments coming for me and Jeff via email at podcast.famgraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system.

We hope you have a wonderful weekend. We will talk to you all next week. But you got it all I'm sorry for the good part But you got everything I need to be