Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1153: Johnny on the Spot

Episode Date: December 22, 2017

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan banter about the perplexing potential end to Manny Machado trade rumors, then bring on former major leaguer and current fun-fact star/national treasure Johnny O’Brien to discuss his life and career with the Pirates, Cardinals, and Braves in the 1950s, becoming a reluctant two-way player (and experiencing immediate, surprising success), his […]

Hello and welcome to episode 1153 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I am Jeff Sullivan. The Fangraphs, joined as always by Ben Lindberg of Star Wars. How are you doing? I'm doing very well, thanks. How are you? I'm doing just great. I don't know if there's any baseball news we need to discuss right now. Yonder Alonzo signed with the Indians, which, okay. But there is at least the idea that Manny Machado now, it seems like, will not be traded by the Orioles. The Orioles are looking, we're thinking about trading Machado with one year left on his contract because they're going to be bad, most likely, probably worse now with Zach Britton injured for a chunk of the year.

But I'm looking at an article here by Rock Kabatko written, or at least published, Thursday morning at six o'clock in the morning. And it's talking about some talks between the Orioles and the Cubs. And if I could just read a couple lines here, there's one. Quote, I've heard that the Cubs' discussions with the Orioles included shortstop Addison Russell, center fielder Albert Almora Jr., and left-hander Mike Montgomery. The Orioles aren't going to come away from a trade with the only pitcher being Montgomery, though they'd gladly take him as a needed southpaw. From the preceding paragraph in the same article, two starting pitchers are a necessity and not just rentals. The Orioles,

if this is to be believed, they're like, okay, we're going to trade Machado. We need two young, cost-controlled starting pitchers. I don't know if it's true that the Cubs have dangled Addison Russell in talks for Manny Machado, but I would take Addison Russell for Manny Machado just straight up, I think. I can check exactly how much service time. Russell is a free agent in four years. He's a super two, so he's going to be a little bit expensive, but he has four years of team control as a 23-year-old, nearly 24-year-old, excellent defensive shortstop who can hit for some power. And I know he hasn't actually been a good hitter yet in the major leagues, but four years of Addison Russell for one year of Manny Machado, you make that trade. Yeah. Oh, definitely.

If that's available to you. You don't hold out for specifically two starting pitchers. You know how you could get two starting pitchers? By trading Addison Russell for them. So I don't know what the Orioles think that they're doing here. And I understand that Peter Angelos makes everything complicated because he doesn't like to pull the plug on things. But taking this at its face, which I know is dangerous in the rumor game, but this seems like this is awfully dumb. It sure does. Yeah. I don't know how to explain that. I mean, I guess maybe they just really didn't want to trade him deep down. And so maybe it's one of those things where you finally say, okay, we'll trade him. But every offer you would actually accept is just ridiculous and no one

would actually give it to you. So maybe it's that, or maybe it's just a case of like your franchise player. It's really hard to part with him for less than exactly what you want, even though he's not that valuable because he's only under contract for one more year, but still psychologically, maybe it's difficult to force yourself to trade that guy before you have to, just because he's been so important to your organization. But I agree with you. If they had that option, they should have taken it. So today we have a guest which we've been teasing for a while and we didn't know when we were teasing it how good our guest would be. We just got off the phone with him and it was one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had in recent years.

And I'll let you tell the story, I guess, of why we are talking to him. And then I will set the scene a little more. But Johnny O'Brien of the O'Brien twins is our guest today. Would you like to tell the people why that is so? Inspired by a recent stat blast. This might have been before it was known as stat blast, but this is a TOPS plus special, as they generally are. And I had looked up hitters in baseball history who had been better in games their teams lost than games their team won.

And when I set the minimum to 500 plate appearances and losses, Johnny O'Brien showed up at the top of the list with an easy lead over second place. and losses johnny o'brien showed up at the top of the list with an easy lead over second place he had a t ops plus of 107 in games that his team lost which means he was a better hitter in losses than wins very unusual and so then i i had set the minimum to 500 plate appearances i thought well why don't i just set it to a a lower minimum i set it to 300 plate appearances just to see if uh if some other names would show up or maybe if some contemporary names would show up. Usually, the listening audience is more

receptive to hearing names that they're familiar with and few people are familiar with Johnny O'Brien from the 50s. When I set the minimum to 300, another player showed up with a TOPS plus of 107 in games that their team lost and that player was Johnny O'Brien's twin brother, Eddie O'Brien,

which was just incredible. That was a live discovery on the podcast. Neither one of us had any idea that it was going to go there, but it did. Yeah, I'm actually going to play a clip from that episode, the moment when you discovered this, because your incredulity is contagious. Johnny O... Okay okay hold on johnny o'brien according to baseball reference is the brother of eddie o'brien johnny o'brien okay no this is impossible johnny o'brien no johnny o'brien 107 career tops plus in losses eddie o'brien career 107 tops plus in losses wait a second what is going on here mind blown there's no way okay no hold on is this wait no they both played for pittsburgh

what is going on here at the same time time? Are they the same person? No. This, hold on. No, no, no, no, no. Johnny O'Brien. No, no, no, no, no, no. This doesn't make any sense. How did this, what is going on? Johnny O'Brien, 597 OPS in wins, 649 OPS in losses. Eddie O'Brien, brother Eddie O'Brien, 529 OPS in wins, 576 OPS in losses.

My hands are shaking. Right now, my hands are actually shaking. This is unbelievable. Forget Alabama versus Minnesota. This is the most unbelievable thing in the history of sports. And at that point, we realized it was basically out of our hands. We had to try to talk to someone about this. And so we went straight to the source.

Eddie O'Brien, unfortunately, passed away about three years ago. But Johnny O'Brien is not only very much still alive, but I would argue that he is more alive and aware of the world around him than I am of my own and you are of yours. So Johnny O'Brien, extremely still with us. And so we were able to have a little chat with him just about a week and a half after his 87th birthday. Yes, that's right. He turned 87 on December 11th. And yeah, when you discovered this fun fact, like you couldn't even process it in the moment when you found the Eddie O'Brien and Johnny O'Brien both on this list, your hands were trembling, I believe you said. And you actually did a Fangraphs post on it and it ended up being the most popular Fangraphs post for a while, which is really something. So yeah, Johnny O'Brien, I mean, we had been planning. I thought, well, we'll talk to him for half an hour maybe and we'll do some

emails at the beginning of the show. Nope, no emails. Never need to answer an email again because Johnny O'Brien answered everything. he's like human stat cast he just knows everything anyone ever said to him and that he ever did so incredibly engaging storyteller and nice and funny guy and yes just the the brief background he and his twin brother eddie were basketball stars at seattle university and then became baseball players. And Johnny played for the Pirates. He came up in 1953. He missed 54 with military service and then was with them 55, 56, 57, got traded in 58 to St. Louis, and then wrapped up his career in Milwaukee in 1959. So spanned most of the 50s and was a lot of positions. He was an infielder. He also pitched and played second base and short.

Neither Johnny nor his brother was much of a hitter. Johnny had a career 68 OPS plus, Eddie 49. So Johnny had the longer and better career, but they are one of, I think, nine sets of twins to both play in the majors and one of only two sets of twins to play on the same team along with the Cansecos. And of course, they're the only twins to have ever been a double play combo. So they're certainly noteworthy in major league history. Really kind of an incredible career given all that he did and overlapped with and witnessed. And he is a living time capsule who remembers it all. So we're lucky to have gotten to talk to him. It's not quite a cold call in that we went through official channels, got his number through Seattle University. In fact, he emailed me, which was the first sign I had that, okay, this guy is still

very much with it. He is emailing me. Anyway, we are going to be back in just a minute to bring you the pleasure and the delight of Johnny O'Brien. Hello? Hi, Johnny. This is Ben Lindberg and Jeff Sullivan. How are you? Good. And yourself? Doing well, thank you. Is this still an okay time for you to talk for a little while? Sure. More than happy to. Okay, thank you. So I figured we could start maybe because there's so much attention these days on the possibility of a two-way player, someone who can hit and pitch, and the whole Shohei Otani story. I figured it would make sense to talk to you about this since you have personal experience, obviously. So I'm

curious about how you ended up, and your brother as well for that matter, ended up pitching as well as hitting and what that was like and what sort of challenge it was as far as preparation went. Surely. Actually, before we got to the major leagues, we played baseball in New Jersey, about 29 miles from about where you are. And we went on a scholarship to Seattle University, and Ed was a center fielder, and I was a shortstop. And the thing about us is we could both throw the ball very hard. And as a matter of fact,

Ed was so good that people used to come out to watch the pregame stuff just to see him throwing from center field. Well, when we got to the Pirates, Branch Rickey turned Ed into a shortstop and me into a second basemankey turned it into a shortstop and me into a second baseman. DeLoy was a shortstop.

That was when the Pirates were in their transition. We actually weren't very good. Mr. Rickey had done great changes at St. Louis and at Brooklyn. He was just in the start of this at Pittsburgh. We used to fight the Cubs for last place every year. As a matter of fact, some people used to say we'd celebrate when we got rained out. So anyway, we were in transition to new positions, and head control so hard that Dick Grote came back out of the service,

and he was a shortstop. So they put Ed back in center field, and then they got Bill Verdon from the Cardinals. So they converted Ed to a pitcher. And I was a utility infielder and infielder and a utility infielder. One night we were playing Cincinnati, and Kurt Roberts was playing second base, and I was down in the bullpen, and the call came for, Kurt was going to bat in the bottom of the eighth inning, and we were behind, and it seemed like they were going to have a pinch hitter,

and I'd go in at second base. And Kurt came up to hit, and I said to Sam Nair, and I said, Sam, what's going on? And he said, you don't think you're pitching, do you? I said, no, you've got to be kidding. Anyway, I loosened up, and I went into second base, and when Kurt was standing there in dusty bod, he said, I think we've got too many second basemen. I looked at Bobby Bergen, and he pointed over at the mound.

And I said, holy mackerel, what's this? So I went over to the mound and Hank Foyles was the catcher and he came out and he said, what do you got? And I said, nothing. I said, you know, I can throw hard. But other than that, I got that real hard double ball I throw that looks like a spitter. I said, but other than that, I got nothing. He says, okay.

He says, so he goes, one will be a fastball, two is a curve, three is a flyer. I said, what are you coming with all those things for? You know I don't have those pitches. And so he goes back, and I throw the first pitch warming up. I hit the screen behind home plate, and Bertie Tevich comes running out. He was the manager of Cincinnati. He says, he can't pitch, he can't pitch, you can't let him pitch. And Bregan

came out, and he had the rule book, and the American League had a pitcher's roster, but the National League did not, so anyone on the team could pitch. So I warm up, and the first batter I faced was the great Hall of Famer Frank Robinson. So Foyles puts down one, and I wind up and I fire it as hard as I can, and he swings and misses it.

He puts down one again, and Frank bent over the plate. He was very close to the plate, and I threw that second pitch, and I knocked him down, not deliberately. I was just trying to throw a strike. And then that came number one again, so I fired up, and I threw another fastball, and he fouled it off. And then Foyles put down two for a breaking ball. And I'm figuring, how the hell do you throw a breaking ball?

So I moved my fingers around and I wound up throwing it as hard as I could. And it turned out to be a pretty good slider. And I struck Robinson out. So I said to myself, maybe there ain't too much to this pitcher. And then the next batter was Ed Bailey.

He was a catcher. And I blew one by him, and then Foyles called for that hard knuckleball I threw, and it would come in, and it would drive straight down, and so I had to aim at the catcher's mask. I mis-aimed, and the ball

went straight down and hit Bailey in the front foot. He's going to second base, yelling for me to get back out to second base where I belong. So, who was up? Smokey Burgess. Not Smokey. Another infielder, and I side-armed him. Rocky Burgess, and he grounded out.

And then I struck McMillan out, and I figured, well, maybe there ain't too much to this pitching, but I found out later there was. I gave Henry Allen the 87th home run of his career, and I gave Willie Bays the 187th of his career. So I was actually an arm saver. And so I was really never a pitcher, though I did have a pitching win. Bob Skinner hit a home run

in the bottom of the ninth against the Phillies, and we won the game, and I'm running out on the field to congratulate him. I had pitched a couple innings to mop up, and they're congratulating me,

and I'm figuring, what the heck can't do with this for him? All of a sudden, they said, you're the winning pitcher. Brother Edwards brought up and he pitched a complete game against the Cubs. Won the game 3-1, struck out 9, walked 1. So we are the only twins in the history of Major League State. Both have a

pitching win. I got 3 on the other side. I tried to blow a fastball by Henry on a 3-1 pitch, and it was in downtown Milwaukee before he got out of the batter's box. I was just an arm saver. I'll never forget one time,

you know, everybody talks about those great beatings at the mound. We were getting the heck kicked out of this by somebody, and Murtaugh was the manager. Then he turned to me and said, how about pitching a ninth inning, finish it up? So I said, okay.

So I go out, and I immediately get two men on base, and here comes Murtaugh to the mound. And I figure, what's this about? We're behind 11-1. Nobody's warming up in the bullpen. What's he doing here? And Murtaugh comes out and he looks at me and he said, if you're looking for help, there isn't

any. He turned and walked away. I said, you buggered. I'm helping you out. And I got out of the inning. And I said to Murtaugh, how do you like those apples? So anyway, those meetings on the mound were not as interesting as a lot of people might think they were.

But I remember one in Milwaukee. I was with Milwaukee in 1959. I'm playing second base, and we're playing the Cardinals. And we're ahead 5-4 in the bottom of the eighth inning, and the Cardinals get the bases loaded, one out, and Stan Musial's coming up. Lou Burdette was pitching for us. And so Haney comes out to get Burdette to bring in Juan Pizarro, who was a left-handed pitcher, to pitch to Musial, a left-handed batter.

And there's a big argument going on on the mound. So being nosy, I go in to see what's going on. And Burdette won't give him the ball. He's saying, this is my game, and I'm going to let nobody come out of the bullpen and lose my game for me. And he just absolutely won't give Haney the ball. And so fighting Haney, he said, I'll tell you what. He said, you pitch to me or say the left-handed batter.

He said, if the score gets tied or the Cardinals go ahead, you take yourself out of the game. I don't even come to the Mounds. And Burdette said, you got it. You got a deal. So as luck would have it, on the first pitch, Musial hit a one-hopper to me at second base. I gave it to Logan and over to Adcock.

We got out of the inning. Burdette pitched to ninth and over to Adcock. We got out of the inning, Burdette pitched the ninth, and won the ball game. And that was kind of the mood in those days of the starting pitchers. They wanted to go nine innings, and they paced themselves to do it that way. And the game has changed quite a bit since those days. And the thing that Ed and I really liked is that,

and Ed figured this out one time, during our time in the major leagues, which was in the 50s, we either played with or against 52 members of the Hall of Fame. Yeah. I was going to ask, so about 10 years ago, pitcher for the Mariners named Ryan Roland Smith

made his major league debut, and the first batter he ever faced was Ken Griffey Jr. And he struck him out. And it stands to reason that's maybe the highlight of Roland Smith's pitching career. I was going to ask you about the Frank Robinson at bat that you used to start your career. And then you just went right into it. Would you say that the Frank Robinson at bat was the highlight of your pitching career? Is it the best thing you ever accomplished on the mound?

Yeah, I think so. Actually, the first time, the one other time, Bregan brought me in against the Phillies, and the bases were loaded and three balls and no strikes on the batter, and he brings me in to pitch. So I came to the mound, and Briggins says, I need some strikes. And I think I said, well, what the hell you got me here for? So anyway, I threw two strikes to Puttenhead Jones,

and then he hit a fierce line drive to center field that Billy Bruton, not Billy Bruton, that Bill Vernon caught, and I got out of the inning. So I always kind of remember that. And, you know, the first, you know, pitching for the first time in the major leagues when I wasn't a pitcher, I guess it's something that stays in the back of your mind. I feel like you remember every detail of games from 60 years ago

that I don't remember about games I saw two months ago. This is impressive. You know, there's something about sports, whether it be basketball or whether it be baseball or something. You're so involved all the time and your concentration is so fierce that some things do stick in your mind and you can remember them years and years later. And then there's other things that somebody asked you about and you just don't even remember them ever happening. But that did stick in my mind.

So I wanted to ask you about how you and your brother got signed. You mentioned Branch Rickey. He signed you guys for $40,000, I think, in 1953. I don't know whether that was per twin or for both twins. No, that was about $20,000 apiece, which was a lot of money in those days. Right. And that was the days of what they called the bonus babies. Yes, that's what I wanted to ask.

So we were supposedly bonus babies. And we had just finished basketball out at Seattle in the NCAA at Seattle University, and the Pirates wanted to sign us, and we did. And we went home for a day and then went to Vantacuba for spring training. That's where we had spring training that particular year. Manicuba for spring training. That's where we had spring training that particular year. And Mr. Rickey there, I remember he turned us into a shortstop in his second-basement team.

But there's kind of a story I love to tell about that bonus baby situation. We came from a small high school in South Amboy, New Jersey. The town was one mile square. And the interesting thing, we went to St. Mary's High School in South Amboy, New Jersey. The town was one mile square. And the interesting thing, we went to St. Mary's High School in South Amboy, which was a small Catholic high school. And in that small school, less than 300 students, five guys wound up in the major leagues of baseball. Allie Clark played for the Yankees in the World Series in 1948 and for Cleveland in 1949. Jack McKean went to Altru Gabbard High School with Ed and I,

and he was Butch McCune in St. Mary's. And it had nothing to do with his anatomy. The nuns, Sisters of Mercy, who showed very little, were deathly unspoken, and butts broke. And when he saw the nuns, he'd put the butt out and put it in his pocket, and that's how he became Butts McCune. And then Tom Kelly, who managed in the Major Leagues, the World Series also, and Ed Nye. So from that little high school, five guys wound up in the Major Leagues. little high school, five guys wound up in the major leagues.

And a reporter from the New York Times did a story one time, and he asked why. And I told him, I said, poor. I said, none of us had anything, and the only thing that was free was sports. And I said, that's what it was. And he said, you know, I've talked to the other four, and they all said the same thing. So sports was the denominator of those days, it paid off especially for Ed and I because we wound up getting a college education and a degree in business administration. That led to the things that we did later in life after the baseball and basketball career. I was an administrator at the Kingdome,

and Ed was an athletic director at Seattle U. So the baseball or the basketball can lead to good things. And as you know, Ed's passed on, and we have an endowment fund at Seattle University that I work hard to get money put into. And that money leads towards scholarships. And we hope that some youngsters can get the same benefit we had of getting a college education, which we would have never got if it wasn't for sports. Well, so I wanted to ask about the bonus baby situation. And for people who don't know,

that was instituted in 1947, basically to keep the Yankees from signing everyone. So if you signed an amateur player for more than $4,000, that player had to stay on the major league roster for a couple of seasons. So it was almost like the rule five draft today. Yeah, right. So was that helpful or harmful to you too? I mean, you get to the majors immediately, but you get no time in the minors to sort of season yourselves. Yeah, it was a work in progress the whole time. And it was kind of interesting in a way. We went through spring training.

Then we went over to Moultrie, Georgia, where they were training Ed to be a shortstop. And then we got and we started the season against the Dodgers in Ebbets Field. And, you know, this wasn't too bad. Here we're sitting on the bench. You get a paycheck every week, and this was pretty nice. And I'll never forget, there were only eight teams in each league at that time. forget, there were only eight teams in each league at that time. We played one another

22 times a year, as well as in spring training, most of which was in Florida at the time. Everybody knew one another. You're part of an elite bunch, which was totally enjoyable, but it was

hard work, and everybody worked to be the best they could. And I'll never forget, we're about two weeks into the season, and we're playing the same Dodgers back in Forbes Field in Pittsburgh, and the Dodgers had a great team in those days. They had Campanella catching Hodges at first, Jackie Robinson at second, Peewee Reese at short, Billy Cox at third, Andy Graf going left, Duke Steiner at center, Furlow on right, and then they had Newcomb, Drysdale, and Kofrax were just coming up.

They had Labine. They had Erskine. So it was a good team, and they were the team of the National League at that time. And I'm sitting at the end of the dugout where they were playing the Dodgers, and we're getting a living heck kicked out of us about the third or fourth inning, and Fred Haney looks down, and he says, Johnny, go on up and hit one.

So I look out on the mound, and Carl Erskine's out there. And I go by Ralph Kiner, and Kiner said, sneaky fastball. I go by Metkovich, and he says, watch out for the best curveball in the league. And then I go, Brian, Eddie Pellegrini says, watch out for the changeup. But this time, I don't want to get out of the dugout. And I go up to the, and I look down at the third base coach, get the take sign, and Erskine winds up, and he throws the first pitch. This is my first pitch in the major leagues.

And it's a dinky little curve ball. And it comes over the plate. And I'll get Donna Telly up there. It says strike one. So I stepped out and I said, that's the best curve ball. I stepped back in there and he threw the next one and it came in and the bottom went out of it.

And I mouth was wide open and Donna Tellllo said, that's his good curveball. That's strike two. And then I fouled off a couple pitches, and he threw that good curveball again, and I took half of the air out of Forbes Field, and I struck out, and I'm crossing the plate, and Kevin Ellis says to me, Johnny, he says, those basketballs don't curve, do they? So that was my first time up at the Major League. Every time I'd go up to the plate against a Dodger, and I'd tell Campanella, get those basketballs out of your back pocket, Campy.

And he told him, you stopped it. So we kind of had a lot of fun with one another. And it was a different era. You know, in our day, we did everything we can to please the manager. And I remember when Murtaugh was managing over

the whirlpool in the trainers room, he had a sign, no one makes my club from this tub. You know, nowadays everybody's got their own trainers and stuff like that. And in our day, you would not go on the injured list. Man, you'd say hello to the trainer at spring training and goodbye at the end of the year and avoid them the whole year because you didn't want anybody to know you were hurt because there were 57 minor leagues and you knew there were guys down there that were better than you.

Nobody would go on that unless they had something really bad going on. Wow. What was Branch Rickey like and how did he end up signing you guys? How much, how well did you know him? Well, we actually, it was kind of interesting. In high school, Ed and I in basketball and baseball had some variety. And we used to actually go up and be with the Giants and the Dodgers and the Giants doing batting practice and stuff like that.

And Ricky was very interested in us, and he was with the Dodgers at the time. And we had graduated from high school, and our dad only went to the fifth grade, said, you guys are going to college, and you're going to get a business degree. So what we did, we were out of actually a high school for a whole year, and we wanted a scholarship, but we couldn't get a scholarship. Nobody could take a gamble on basketball and baseball, two guys, five, nine, because they were gambling two scholarships. So Columbia offered us one scholarship between us,

and we didn't have the money for the second one. Branch Rickey talked to us about signing with the Dodgers when we graduated, and he would help put us through St. John's, but we couldn't do that because we couldn't play basketball and baseball in college. There was a Dr. Meacham in our hometown, and he and his wife agreed to put us through Mount St. Mary's in Emmitsburg, Maryland, if after that we would agree to become doctors. Well, Ed told Mrs. Meacham that we were going to get a degree in business administration, and we weren't going to become doctors. And you can't believe how many lives that's probably saved. And so we wound up winning the New Jersey State Baseball Championship three years in

a row, 48, 49, and 50. And in 49, we were out in Wichita, Kansas, and playing in the tournament. And there was a fellow named Bobby Bilgrave, who was from Pertamboy, New Jersey, 10 miles away. And Al Brightman was the baseball and basketball coach at Seattle University. They, too, had been in the Army, and Bill Grave told Brightman about it. And the story goes, we played Mount Vernon in 49 in that tournament. And in the 12th inning, the game went 17 innings.

Ed got a walk, and he was on first base, and Brightman was playing first base for Mount Vernon from the state of Washington. And he had a little piece of paper, and he asked Ed to our address, and he said, Bill Graves, talk to me about you guys. He said, how were your marks? And Ed said, well, we were taught by your sisters in Mercer, and we both graduated cum laude. And Ed said, well, we were taught by your sisters in Mercer, and we both graduated cum laude. And he said, well, that's good.

Okay. And he said, now I got it. And Ed said, I'm sorry, Mr. Brightman. I just got the steel sign. So Ed stole second base. And that was the last we heard of it. And then two weeks later, we got a letter from Seattle University that we had a scholarship if we wished,

and we were on the next plane heading to Seattle. Toward the end of your major league career, I know in this particular game you end up being pinch hit for by Del Rice in the 10th inning, but you were the starting second baseman for the Milwaukee Braves in the Harvey Haddix game. Well-known game in baseball lore, of course. Harvey Haddix threw 12 perfect innings before losing in the 13th. I have a sneaking suspicion you have very vivid memories of this game since you seem to have very vivid memories of every day of your life.

But what do you remember from that game in particular? I was leading off. I mean, Haddix was pitching. He was a short left-handed pitcher and that night he had a particularly sharp slider he threw he wasn't overpowering with his fastball but he spotted it well and this particular night he had a extremely good slider and I bopped one pretty good the first time up and got out. I got called out on strikes the second time up.

And the third time I swatted one of the shorts up and got thrown out at first base. And then in the bottom of the 10th, Burdette was pitching for us. And there's a story. There's always a story behind everything in sports, you know. And so Rice hit for me in the 10th, and I think Felix Mantia went into second base. And so at the end of 12 and a half innings, Pirates had no runs, 12 hits, and no errors.

And we had no runs, no hits, and no errors. And Mantia, I believe, led off to the bottom of the 13th. And he had a ground ball down to third base. Don Hope picked it up and threw it over to first base. And I felt that the first baseman for Pittsburgh at the time, I don't remember who it was, had reached out. He could have got it, but he decided to take it on the short hop and hit the heel of his glove and bounced out.

And Mantia was safe. And, you know, that was the bottom of the 13th and the first runner we had on base, so we knew we were making progress. And here's another thing about today. Eddie Matthews is up next. Now, Eddie was a power hitter, as you know, with over 500 home runs. He was also the fastest guy from the home plate to first base in the National League. You couldn't double him up.

He sacrificed Mantea over to second base. Now, a power hitter like that still had to be able in our day to do it all. And Eddie did it, sacrificed Manti at the second, and that brought up Henry Allen. Well, naturally, they're not going to pitch to Aaron, so they walked in purposely, and that brought up Joe Adcock. The first pitch had to be true to Adcock, if I recall, was a slider and low and in for a ball.

And the second pitch was a fastball, high, and it was actually outside the strike zone. And Adkaku was very strong, reached out, and he whacked it. And the ball headed toward right center field. And there were two fences there. One was a short fence, and one of the bullpens was in there, and there was a second fence behind it. Well, he cleared the first fence, and they hit the second fence.

Home run. Well, Henry was on first base, and he thought it hit the first fence. So he went down and tagged second base and cut back across the infield. Adcock, who knew he had a home run, was zipping around for the home run, and he passed Aaron. In the meantime, Mantea was coming in to score. Well, technically now,

Aaron passing Bill Adcock is out. But then there was a big meeting at the plate, and it didn't matter because Mantea's run was still going to count. But they decided, that's it. The game's over, 3-0. Well, the next day I go into the locker room and Hancock's got the papers.

He says, look at this, O. He said, they changed it to a double and the final score is 1-0. And then the next day he said, no, now they've corrected it. He says, now I've got a single, and the final score is 1-0. He said, I ain't buying the paper tomorrow. I won't even get a hit out of this. So anyway, that's what happened. Adcock actually had hit a home run, but he didn't get credit for it

because Henry thought it hit the first fence. But, you know, it was a win. That's what they were. And it was one of those things, like I say, that stuck right in my mind, and it stuck in mine. And like I say, you know, as a pitcher and even in that game, I was one of those people that helped a lot of guys get to the Hall of Fame. Right. game. I was one of those people that helped a lot of guys get to the Hall of Fame.

Right. So I was curious about when you eventually left the Pirates, you got traded to St. Louis in 1958. And that must have been the first time that you had not been on a team with Ed for, I don't know how long, because you'd been on the team. No, negative. Ed had been sent out to become a pitcher before that when we were both with the Pirates. Okay, so he was still in the organization. He went to Columbus in the International League. As a matter of fact, when growth came back, Ed was sent to Columbus as a shortstop,

and they converted him to a pitcher over there. And it was interesting. He made the all-star team as a shortstop, and they converted him to a pitcher over there. And it was interesting. He made the All-Star team as a shortstop and wound up in the All-Star game as a pitcher. Oh, okay. But in those days, you did anything the manager wanted. You know, the player was trying to please the manager. want it. You know, the player was trying to please the manager. Today, I even see some stuff about

some managers leaving because they weren't pleasing the players. So, you know, it's a different ball game nowadays than it was. Like in basketball, the three-point shot, we didn't have it that day, and that's kind of really changed the way

basketball is played today. So, our role always was to please the manager. And whatever the manager wanted, you did. I remember one time Hank Foyles chased, he was our catcher, chased a pop fly, and he hit his mouth on a railing when he tripped, and he had 37 stitches inside and out. So he couldn't catch because even a foul tip off the mask would do it.

Danny Kravitz was our only catcher and when Danny Murtaugh said sport, something was up. So I was taking batting practice the next day and Murtaugh was laying down the cage. He said, hey sport. He asked why don't you put on the tools of ignorance and

catch some batting practice? I said, you've got to be kidding me. I said, I've got you put on the tools of ignorance and catch some batting practice? I said, you've got to be kidding me. I said, I've got a wife and three kids. At the time, we wound up at seven. But he said, okay. So he walked away, and he turned to me and said, oh, by the way, he says, if Kravis gets tossed or hurt, you're it. So the next thing, I'm catching bat practice. I'm getting hit everywhere you can get hit with balls.

And finally, because it took about a week to train your eyes so you don't blink when the bat goes through. And I'll never forget, I'm now the backup catcher. And I was in the bullpen, and we got in a riot with the Giants, and I broke the world's record getting out of that bullpen in there to keep Kravitz out of the place because I didn't want to catch. But that was the day you did what the manager wanted. You didn't question it.

The first time that you were without Ed on a team, was that strange for you after having played in school with him and then with the Pirates? It really was, because, you know, all through grammar school, high school, college, we took the same grades, we were in the same class, we were in the same day with the Pirates, we were together, and then, let's see, in June of 54, Ed got married. And I had to build up some leave because I was going to get married in October. So I wasn't even at his marriage.

But that was really the start of us in separation. To that time, we were like glued together. Yeah. but not glued together. Yeah. So you missed 1954 because of your military service, both you and Ed Boas, but you had debuted, you'd been rookies in 1953 with the Pirates, and you came back and you played regularly in 1955 with the Pirates. What was the transition like?

Of course, we see players now who might miss a season due to injury, but you don't really have players who are missing time in the major leagues because of military service anymore. And how is the transition back to an occupation that one could say was of considerably lesser gravity? It was interesting. We were at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland in the service. And I was a machine gunner on the security force, and Ed was my ammo carrier. And we never did carry any live ammo, so Ed would walk alongside me while I'm hauling that big machine gun. He was always smarter than me.

And the interesting thing at the Aberdeen Pro-Ground those days, they didn't have any baseball fields. And as a matter of fact, we were in the service with Cal and Billy Griffin's dad at the Aberdeen Pro-Ground. And so we didn't play any baseball during that year and a half in the service. And then when we came out, we came back to Pittsburgh, and Mr. Rickey said, all right, fellas, the year tomorrow, I'm going to have some pitchers to throw to you to get you started.

And so the first day we were there, and they had some pitchers throwing toys and we're hitting balls at Portsfield, and it started raining. And so we had to stop. They had some pitchers throwing toys and we're hitting balls at Corpse Field. And it started raining. And so we had to stop. And then Mr. Rickey said, well, you can play your way into shape. And they sent us out to Milwaukee to join the club. And the next night, Ed was batting against Warren Spahn. So in those days, you know, we just actually played our way back into shape.

Well, you mentioned how many incredible players you played with or against over the course of your career and wanted to ask maybe about a couple of them, but certainly about Roberto Clemente, who came up while you were with the Pirates. What are your early memories of him or, you know, meeting him or seeing him play for the first time? Roberto was kind of a hypochondriac he was always aching and i locked her next to the bird or then he'd come in and i'd say how you doing today roberto oh he stepped back it's aching and that was three line drives i mean he just attacked the ball um he didn't walk very much because he was swinging coming out of the dugout. And I tell the story of my brother Bill, who's also passed on, was younger than Ed and I by about 10 years.

And I was teaching Roberto English, and he was teaching me Spanish. And one day I told my brother Bill, and I said, I'm teaching Roberto English, and he's teaching me Spanish. And my brother Bill said, you made a bad deal. He says, you should teach him English, and he should teach you how to hit. That was my own brother. Anyway, Roberto had a marvelous arm.

You know, and he liked to show it off. And man, he'd throw the ball back from the outfield and it would practically knock your glove off. But he was a very, very nice fellow. Really, really nice. Easy to get along with and a lot of fun in the clubhouse.

And when he went up to the plate, the only guy during my day, we didn't play, I was all in the National League, but the only guy in our day that everybody stopped and watched when he was in the batting cage was Ted Williams. And you'd feel sorry for the ball. And Roberto was kind of close to that. You'd watch Mays, and you'd watch Aaron, and you'd watch Roberto. Roberto was not the long-distance, though he was not without power.

But he hit the hardest line drives you ever saw. And they were consistent, consistent. And, you know, he came to play nine innings every time, and it was a pleasure playing with him. And I found out in all the years I was in the major leagues, the more noted or renowned the player was, for the most part, they were the nicest guys. Stan Musial was just a gorgeous guy to go and all that stuff. And I think Ed and I really appreciate the fact that here we had the opportunity to be with the elite of the game of baseball.

We really enjoyed it. the elite of the game of baseball. We really enjoyed it. And I guess Bill Mazeroski coming up was not great for you, professionally speaking. When Mazzy came up, I watched him for 10 minutes and I said, I am now a utility engineer. Right.

And Maz was just a marvelous guy. i don't see much of him anymore but it's just like yesterday when i get with him he uh he he's a good guy you had faced obviously we we've talked about you facing don drysdale and sandy koufax we talked about the harvey haddix game you faced robin roberts is in all Hall of Fame. You faced dozens, if not hundreds, of different pitchers. While you did face a certain number of Hall of Famers, was there one pitcher in particular that you recall as just being the most difficult challenge for you to go up against if it wasn't one of the Hall of Famers? There was a pitcher. I saw

all those great pitchers and all, but there was a pitcher that pitched for the Dodgers named Sandy McDavid, and he was a small left-handed pitcher. And he threw sinker balls, and not

hard, and I could not get the ball up in the air or out of the infield on him, and it just used to drive me crazy. And so I would say there was the toughest guy I had to get. You know, I got very good shots of him, Spahn and Burdette and Grisdale and Colfax and Robin Roberts and stuff like that. But I never got a hit off McDavid.

And so it's not if you control the ball 600 miles an hour. It's where they put it and how they affect you. And he was the guy that I just could not get a hit off of. And I'll tell you about umpires. You mentioned Robin Roberts. We were playing in Philadelphia one time. Roberts is pitching. I hit a ball in the left center field.

I get a double. And the left fielder throws the ball into Granny Hamner, who's the second baseman, or shortstop for Philadelphia. And I'm sitting on the bag. My rear end is right on the bag. And Hamner gets the ball, and he swipes it across my shirt. And Donatelli comes running across, and he shouts, You're out of there, and I know I blew it.

I said, What? He says, You're out of there. I said, You blew it. He says, I don't change my calls. I said, Well, what do I do? He said, Get back to the dugout. That was the day. The umpires, when they made a call, they didn't change it.

Then I told him, I show me one. He says, I don't do that either. So you mentioned that when you came up, the Pirates obviously were not very good at that time. The year before you broke into the majors was maybe one of the worst teams of all time. They hit 42 and 112 in 1952. Then at the end of your career, you played for the Milwaukee Braves in your last year, and they were a great team. They had just been in the World Series the year before. And of course, Hank Aaron was around and Warren Spahn and Eddie Matthews and on and on and on. How different was it to play for a team at those polar opposite stages of competitiveness? Well, when I was with the Pirates, we were learning how to win.

When I was with Milwaukee, they knew how to win. And so there was a different deal. It's like in sports. If you say, I hope we win today, you're kidding yourself. You've got to get down to it that we're going to win today. And teams always have that we're going to win today

attitude. And when they do, of course, not a game experience to it. And that's why it took a while for the Pirates because they had to get into their heads on a complete team basis that we're going to win today. I remember in basketball at Seattle University, our coach was Al Bryden,

and he used to say, we're not going to worry about the other team. Let them worry about us. You know, and his attitude was always, we're going to win, and let's go from there. And I think that was – I saw a bit of that when I was with Milwaukee, that they went out on the field every day with, you know, this is our game. And the Pirates, when we were growing up, if that's the way to say it, would go out there and say, boy, we've got to play good today to win this one.

And after you start winning, then that attitude gets in there, and that's the attitude that all winning teams have. And, you know, you talk about the Pirates being not so hot. It was one year we're playing, and we're not doing well at all. And we played a Saturday game, and it's Saturday evening, and Gene and I, my wife, and Ed and his wife, Pat, we're driving after dinner. We're driving out, and all of a sudden, I'm driving.

Ah! And this police car stops me. And a cop comes up to me and says, you went through the red light, and this was in Pittsburgh. And I said, well, I'm sorry. I thought it was Amber. He said, give me your license. So I give him my license, and he goes to the back of the car,

and then he comes back up, and he says, I've got a little concern here. He said, you have a state of Washington driver's license, and this is a Pennsylvania place on the car. He said, where are you from? I said, New Jersey. He says, now it's getting more interesting. He says, what are you doing here? I'm working here during the summer. He said, what are you doing? I said, I'm playing second base for the Pittsburgh Pirates. And he handed me back my wallet, and he

said, go ahead, you've got enough problems already. So sometimes being not so good can be not so bad. Right. I guess so. Well, that first year when you came up with the Pirates 53, that was when Ralph Kiner finally got traded. And of course, Ricky had been trying to trade him for a while. And there's the famous line about we could finish last place without you. He finally got rid of him that year. So what was that like for the team to have been so bad the year before and then to lose your Hall of Fame player? Well, that was an interesting thing that you brought up. That was done during batting practice. We were taking batting practice. It was a Thursday afternoon and we're playing the Cubs. And they said, everybody back to the clubhouse. So we go back to the clubhouse, and Haney was our manager, and he said, okay, we made the trade with the Cubs, effective immediately. And he said, meat, you know about it.

And meat was Ralph Kiner, called him meat. And he said, you too, Dago. And that was Joe Gragiola. And Howie Paulette went one way or the other. him meet. And he said, you too, Dago. And that was Joe Gragiola. And Howie Paulette went one way or the other. And Gragiola said, what do you mean? I just made a down pavement on the house. And he

said, get out of here. You're a cub now. So they came out and five cubs came in. Dee Fondy, UWP Schultz, Toby Atwell, and two more. I don't remember them. And it was kind of like, what the heck is going on? And then I'll never forget Atwell said to Haney, how about the signs? So we changed signs.

And Haney said, ah, hell no. Those guys hardly knew them anyway. So we never changed signs that they had. And we found out the Cubs didn't either. But that was one of Mr. Rookie's real assets. He had the ability somehow to see when a player had one more good year in his career and then was going to start to let age and reflexes take its toll. And he would make trades.

And he did that. Kiner had another great year with the Cubs and then started to show his baseball age. And so we weren't as startled as the fans were when they announced batting fault for the Cubs, number 23, Ralph Kiner that day. And Kiner had a 23. His number was four. And I was four all the way through my career because I was,

and Lou Gehrig was my idol. And when I got to spring training with the Pirates in Havana, Cuba, the clubhouse guy said, what number do you want? I said, number four. And he said, you could have it if you could talk Ralph Kiner out of it. So I was number 30, my first year with the Pirates. But it was, you know, we were a part of the transition. Players were coming and going all the time. And so it just, in a sense, it got to be another day at the ballpark. And the opposite end of your career

when you were with the Braves, and as I mentioned, you're playing with Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews, Warren Spahn, and, you know, Slaughter, and, you know, Red Shandienst was on that team briefly, although he missed most of the year.

So which of those guys did you most enjoy getting to see up close or getting to know as a person? Well, Stan Lopata and I got traded over there. So Stan and I were close. No, no, no, no. Left hander better, left hander better. I'm losing it right now. Logan and I were pretty close.

Mel Roach, who was another second baseman. Eddie Matthews, Torrey, and Henry. We were good friends. So those were the closest guys I was with the Braves. And Milwaukee was a very good baseball town. They followed their team extremely well, supported the team, and of course, it was winning. And you know, when you win, they come. There's something that I wanted to try to bring to your attention about your own career. I have thought about how to explain this for a couple of weeks. I don't really know how to do it. So we're just going to try. As you can imagine, players in baseball history have hit better

in games that their teams wound up winning than games their teams wound up losing. That's just common sense. An interesting thing about your own career is that you were actually about 7% better as a hitter in games that your team ultimately lost than you were in games your team ultimately won, which is an interesting fun fact. You are actually the most extreme player in that regard in baseball history. You are the player who was most better in games your team ultimately lost, which on its own is an interesting fact. But then I was doing some research, and what I found out was that there are very, very few players in baseball history who have ever been better in games better hitters in games that their teams lost than games that their

teams won you were about seven percent better in losses and when i went into the the history your brother ed was also seven percent better in losses than in games the team won. I don't have an explanation for this. You are two of, I think, about 19 players ever to be better hitters in losses than wins. If you had to try to come up with any potential explanation, do you know, could you explain why the two of you might have been better in games that your teams would end up losing?

You know, that's the first time I ever heard that, why the two of you might have been better in games that your teams wound up losing. You know, that's the first time I ever heard that, and I have no idea whatsoever. You know, it probably had a lot to do with who the hell was out there on the mound pitching against us, but I had no idea about that. Yeah, that's a weird one. That is what initially brought you to our attention, and then we realized maybe we can call him and find out more about that. But it turns out that we had many more questions for you. Well, you know, being small and all that, we were underdogs all the time,

and maybe that was the reason. Yeah, it could be. All right, well, this has been a real pleasure for us thank you so much it's been you know impressive I think just you're putting on a clinic remembering that Ralph Kiner is traded on a Thursday afternoon

the specificity of your memory is amazing but we're glad that you're able to share all these memories with us. And it's been a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you, guys. It's a pleasure talking to you. And my only regret is that my brother isn't there to be chatting with you also. Yes, that's right. I wish we could have talked to both of you. That would have been a pleasure too. But you did a

great job for the two of you, I guess. By the way, did you know Bing Crosby at all? Did you ever get to meet him while he was the co-owner of the Pirates? Oh, Bing was a great friend. Oh, wow. When we were at Seattle University, Bing was part owner of the Pirates. Yeah. And he came to Seattle to talk to Ed and I about signing after the basketball season, signing with the Pirates. And we got to be great friends.

And I have a number of handwritten letters here at home from Bing over the years. And from 1953 till Bing died, he sent Ed and I a Christmas present every year. Oh, that's nice. until Bing died, he sent Ed and I a Christmas present every year. He was a grand friend. If Bing Crosby was sitting next to you guys right now, you'd think you'd known him for your whole life. He was that kind of a person. Wow, okay.

I'm glad I asked. That's the part of sports. You run into some very, very interesting people. I think of Branch Rickey. I think of Pablo DeMille at Seattle University. I think of Bing. Those were people that, as you get later on in life, you appreciate the fact that you had the privilege of knowing them. And that was one of the fine points of sports.

And Ed and I have always been appreciative of the fact that Seattle University gave us a scholarship and enabled us to play basketball and baseball and get an education. Gene and I have three grandsons now that are on baseball scholarships to college. Riley graduated from the College of Idaho. He's now pitching in the Tampa Bay organization. His brother Brendan is at Linfield College on a baseball scholarship, a junior, plays all nine positions.

college on a baseball scholarship, a junior, plays all nine positions. And our grandson, Connor, is a freshman at LSU University and a heck of a shortstop. And the thing that we like about that, Gene and I, is all three of them have baseball scholarships, but they also all three have academic scholarships. And so no matter what happens, sports have given them the opportunity to get an education. And, of course, sports only last so long, so that education becomes terribly important.

And so Ed and I were always appreciative of the fact that baseball and basketball gave us the education, which was really important to us and the things we did after sports. Just looking at Riley's first line here last season, pitching for Princeton, and he had a 2-2-0 ERA with as many strikeouts as innings. So Riley O'Brien, he's on his way. Eighth round pick. Interesting thing about Riley and Connor and Brendan.

Riley is 6'5". Brendan is 6'2", and Riley is 6'5". Brendan is 6'2". And Connor is 6'2". And Ed and I barely got to 5'9". We must have come over on the shrimp boat. All right. Well, you mentioned you get to talk to interesting people in sports. And you are one of them.

So we're glad that we got to talk to you. Thank you again for giving us so much time, Johnny. Hey guys, thank you for calling. It gave me a chance to review some memories and I appreciate it very much. Thanks again. All right, bye. Bye.

Wow, that was amazing. Unbelievable. Yeah, I'm still recording here. I'll just say like Jeff and I were instant messaging throughout that interview and it's mostly just like exclamation points and LOL and how did he remember that? It's just, I don't, I mean, that's amazing. You, you know, you, I've called a fair number of players who are long retired and it can be, you know, completely a mixed bag. You get guys who don't remember any

details from their career, or obviously at that age, you're lucky if they're even still around at all and in good health and mind and can talk to you. But that kind of detail is amazing. And you were fact-checking him on some of these things he was saying and checked out as far as we could tell. So that is just amazing. And even just like incidental like players who are peripheral to the story that had like just going the details of who is playing second base naming the entire lineup just just because he could just i i think back on like i don't know the the three or the five most impactful days or events of my own life. And it's like 50-50 whether I remember certain facts from them.

And these are, I can't believe it. I can't believe it. That was amazing. So I'm really glad that you came across that fun fact that turned into this. So, all right. I guess we will end there. That can't be topped. I was saying to you while we were recording that you're going away.

We will end there. That can't be topped. I was saying to you while we were recording that you're going away. I wish that I could have Johnny come and co-host. And you said he might just spell me for a couple of weeks and just do the show himself. It could just be a monologue of this day in Johnny O'Brien's life history. Here's where I was. Here's what I did. Who was with me?

I remember it like it was yesterday. So amazing. All right. If you ever go on a honeymoon, then I'll just, I'll bring him on. You can go host with me. That way I don't have to do very much talking. Just ask him like, so what were you doing 60 years ago today? Yeah. All right. That was incredible. I was thinking for weeks, how is Jeff going to explain this obscure fun fact to an 87 year old man who has never heard it before? Could have gone so much worse than that.

But as it turned out, the fun fact was just a tiny bit of that interview because it led us to so many other facts that were even more fun. That was probably the most fun we've had doing an interview on this podcast since, I don't know, Ned Garver, maybe. You can support this podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. Five listeners who have already pledged their support include Ben Lennertz, Lane Maddox, Brennan Jordan, Tom Elmer, and Mark Griffiths. Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash effectively wild. And you can rate and review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes.

Your reviews are appreciated. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for editing assistance. I still have some good emails saved that we never got to this week, but please do keep sending more via email at podcast at fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system. We will be back next week, presumably not on Monday. That's Christmas, although we may pre-record this week. So we'll see. If you're celebrating Christmas, have a happy one. If you're celebrating christmas have a happy one if you're celebrating other holidays have happy ones of those and regardless of which holidays you are celebrating or not celebrating we hope you have a wonderful weekend and we will talk to you next week Bye bye Johnny

Goodbye Johnny Be good