Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1196: A Minor-League Pitcher Explains Minor-League Pay

Episode Date: March 28, 2018

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan banter about an update on the fate of the indy leagues, their rapid playoff predictions for 2018, the inaugural journey of the Diamondbacks’ bullpen cart, juiced-ball precedents from the 1920s and 1930s, what spring stats are saying about the season to come, and a Dennis Sarfate extension. Then they talk […]

🎵 I'm gonna play with money, honey. I'm gonna play with money, honey. Hello and welcome to episode 1196 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs. We are finished with our team preview podcast series. Opening day is upon us, just about, and we can talk about whatever we want today. Podcast is our oyster. Caleb Smith will start the second game of the regular season for the Marlins. Odrisimo Despagne will start the third. It's only going to get worse from there. Yeah, that's not maybe the best way to generate

excitement for the 2018 season. Wrong! Think of all the other teams that get to maybe the best way to generate excitement for the 2018 season. Wrong! Think of all the other teams. You get to play the Marlins. Well, that's true. That's good incentive. Yeah, this is our last pre-opening day podcast, and then we'll just be back in regular season mode, which isn't all that different on this podcast. We're not really breaking down every game as it happens or anything, but now we can spread out a bit and pursue whatever we're interested in at the moment. And today we have an interview, and it is not a preview of a major league team. It is an interview with Jonathan Perrin, who is a Brewers minor leaguer. He's a prospect who was in AA last season, will probably be in AAA this season. And he has been somewhat outspoken, whatever the Twitter equivalent of outspoken out tweeting

about the minor league pay and conditions issue that we've been alluding to in the intros to some recent episodes. So we figured we would talk to someone who is actually directly affected by this and familiar with this. And it's a good conversation. And he's a smart guy who will probably be a lawyer someday when he is familiar with this. And it's a good conversation. And he's a smart guy who will probably be a lawyer someday when he is done with baseball. So I think we learned a lot from hearing from someone who is actually involved with this and affected by it on a day-to-day basis.

Agreed. And it sounded like he wants to go into law and work for the Players Union. So now I've spoiled one of his answers, but it's something that the players union could uh could stand to have then ken rosenthal had an article that was released on tuesday morning where he talked about players responding to tony clark's leadership and within the article was the uh was the mention that the union is looking for help it's looking for employees so the union help wanted which i think we already knew from the course of the offseason but uh maybe it's very much help wanted. So, you know, maybe we could just quit the podcast and go work for the union, but we'll see. We still haven't heard from the union or the athletic. league situation and how that's affected by the new law and maybe it's not affected by the new law anyway the way nathaniel interprets it possibly the indie leagues can survive because they actually have a better argument that they are seasonal jobs and workers and maybe they can

get around the strictures of this rule which you know mandates minimum wage but i don't know the indie leagues may not be subject to it in the same way that the minor leagues are, which personally I like. I know a lot of people have been writing, maybe we should let the indie leagues go if they can't pay their players minimum wage, which I understand, but at least the level of indie ball I was at, no one was making money, including the owners and the team employees. And I think everyone just sort of understood and accepted that and loved baseball enough to do it. Anyway, maybe those leagues are not quite as endangered as it seemed. So I am personally pleased about that. But a couple things before the season starts. My otherwise amazing

editor, Mallory Rubin, makes me do season predictions. Just the Ringer staff does the post and Fangraphs staff does their predictions post i'm pretty sure we talked about our respective prediction posts for about 30 seconds last year because they were the same and i'm gonna guess that they're basically the same now i would think that we are picking the same teams to win the divisions because almost everyone is do you have any unorthodox non-consensus predictions no of course not but it did start a uh a weekly radio segment that i i'm going to do on tuesday morning so i'm not advertising that but on the segment i was asked at the very end of it they said uh hey we we listened to effectively wild but we know that during the team preview segments you

usually surprise the guests by asking for a team win prediction and so they turned it around on me and said so who's going to win the world series and who are they going to beat so i was uh i was stuck and i said i think the yankees are going to win the world series and i guess they're going to knock out the cubs and then i remembered i was doing my radio hit on the score chicago so i have now introduced myself to the audience as a complete asshole. Yeah. Assuming you went, what, Yankees, Indians, Astros, Nationals, Cubs, Dodgers, but are there any, there's some wildcard debate you could have. I went back and forth on some wildcard teams. I think I went with ultimately the Cardinals as my first NL wildcard team. I think I went with the Diamondbacks as my second one. I can tell how much I agonized over this by the fact that I don't even really remember

which teams I took, and it was less than a day ago. But I was going back and forth on some teams, because you could make a case. I think I took the Twins as my second wildcard team in the AL, along with the Red Sox as the top one. So I was going back and forth, like maybe Angels are a contender, maybe the Brewers in the National League, maybe the Mets, maybe the Blue Jays. Those were all kind of in consideration. Did you pick differently? I mean, look, no. But if I wanted to try to go off the board here. So I think the Red Sox are a clear wildcard team in the American League. And then you try to pick the second one and there's no obviously there's no great team to choose i keep feeling like i'm i'm the high guy on the a's but you know at some point

a team has to keep a pitcher healthy so i don't know if you can really say that and it really does just feel like maybe this is overly broad but it feels like the wild card will be determined by whichever teams keep their pitchers the healthiest you know you look at the mets they could easily make it the diamondbacks have no rotation depth but they have a good rotation the brewers have if jimmy nelson comes back they could have a good rotation but it's just a matter of pitcher health which is nothing we can do anything with so i mean the twins have like 12 capable and equally unexciting starting pitchers and jose barrios so yeah the twins make sense but i you know, the Angels could win 95 games if all their starters make all their starts, but they're probably not going to. Yeah. Well,

that concludes our season preview segment. I guess we just did 15 podcasts previewing each team individually. So hopefully that suffices. Our league-wide predictions are not unorthodox or particularly interesting. So i don't think we need to dwell on our playoff picks but now we have said them so you can gloat when we get them wrong inevitably who finishes with a higher slugging percentage jean-carlos stanton or aaron judge i'll go with stanton the correct answer is dd gregorius yeah so. So a couple quick things. First of all, we talked when it was announced that the bullpen cart would be brought back. I think you were sort of a skeptic about why anyone would want to ride in a bullpen cart into the game. Why, other than nostalgia and

throwback and silliness, whether it could possibly be intimidating at all, or whether it would just kind of make you look like you're sort of a joke. And so we got our first inkling of what this will actually look like in modern baseball. I just sent you a link to a tweet of a video that was taken during an exhibition game this week in Chase Field, and it is an Arizona reliever entering the game via bullpen cart. And I assume you have not watched this. I have watched it once, but maybe you can watch in real time. Tell me what you think about this bullpen cart entrance. All right. All right. it's uh it's rolling along yep wait yep it just he's still the pitcher still has to jog this is still okay this is a this i got i understand you can't drive the cart on the grass because it would be bad for the this is you i i mean this is very this is underwhelming

even i think based on what we were expecting. So what happens here, I guess the Arizona bullpen, what it's beyond the left field fence. And so I guess the bullpen cart enters infall territory in the outfield, and then it drives on the dirt infall territory very slowly, like speed limit five miles per hour or something. You could definitely jog as fast or faster than this bullpen cart is going. And it stops in front of the dugout, lets the pitcher out where the catcher is standing to greet him and chat, I guess. And then, yeah, then he has to jog from foul territory to the mound. from foul territory to the mound. So this is not a direct route. I don't think this saves any time. I don't know whether this is looked at primarily as a time-saving measure or just something that's fun, but definitely not saving any time here. And it's really an indirect route and extremely slow. So I don't know, this would not psych me up if I were entering in this bullpen cart. Important point, the bullpen cart, it goes for, I don't know, like 15 seconds, pulls up in front of the dugout, like you said, and the

catcher is there waiting for the pitcher. Pitcher gets out of the cart. The pitcher and the catcher have like a split second conversation before they part ways and go to their positions. And the pitcher covered his mouth with his glove. He's trying to be secretive about his greeting to the catcher. That is how ingrained this instinct is now for pitchers. They cannot talk to the catcher and allow anyone to see it. I know. I wonder whether they do it in the clubhouse if they're talking to the catcher just out of reflex. That must be like 12 teams, different team commercials.

That must be something that they're fond of. Definitely must be a Mariners one. It must be something that they're going to find. Yeah, definitely must be a Mariners one. So last thing I think I mentioned yesterday that I wrote this article about MLB The Show and how they are handling the physics of the baseball, trying to mimic Major League Baseball as closely as they can. And so they have to adjust the baseball and the home run rate in the game to match the home run rate in the real life game.

I started this article with an anecdote that I thought is relevant as we continue to talk about why home runs are up and whether the ball is different. So this is, again, something I learned from Craig Wright's excellent newsletter, which I have pitched in the past, pages from baseball's past, and I subscribe to that. I encourage everyone to. It's smart. It's historic. It's stats. So he passed along the story. So there's obviously been suspicion at various points in baseball history about the

ball changing. And earlier in baseball history, it was often just acknowledged. It's all mysterious now. And did something happen? And if so, was it intentional? Back in, say, the 20s or 30s, it was pretty openly acknowledged. So in 1925, for instance, offense was up. And I think we had talked about this in the past, that the dead ball era ended essentially when they started using a different type of wool, a different wool source in the ball. And it was springier and the ball was bouncier. And so the ball was carrying better. And so guys adjusted to that by swinging for the fences more much as they are

today. So by 1925, offense was up. Some people thought it was up too much, so the Reach Company, which was the official baseball supplier at the time, introduced this cushioned cork center ball, which had a dual-layer rubber coating around the cork core, and it was intended to make it more durable but also to dampen offense and it did so through july of that season 1925 teams had scored 5.47 runs per game and 0.557 home runs per nine innings that's actually both per nine innings so 5.47 runs after july with the new ball in play 5.47 fell to 4.73 the home run rate which was 0.557 fell to 0.355 so dramatic decreases just because of this new cushioned cork center so then offense stays like that for the next few years

pretty steady then it starts creeping up again it's up in 29 up in 30 people start worrying that maybe offense is too high again and 1930 was a really high offense year. So they decide to do something. They both decide, both leagues, American and National, decide they want a slightly deader ball or a ball that doesn't carry quite as much. So they raise the stitches on the ball, basically, so it would have more air resistance, pitchers could get a better grip, maybe better movement. But the two leagues differed on how much offense they wanted to subside. So the AL kind of liked offense. They had the Yankees. They had Babe Ruth. They liked homers. The NL didn't so much. So they had two different balls from 1931 to 1933,

the only period in Major League Baseball history where there were two models of baseball in use in Major League Baseball at the same time. So in the AL, there was the offense-friendly ball. So it had a three-ply horsehide cover. In the NL, the cover was five-ply horsehide instead of three-ply. There was also an extra stitch because the cover was thicker, so the seams bunched a bit more and it didn't carry as much. It was like 4% bigger and heavier and had slightly higher seams. That was the difference between them.

And the difference in scoring between leagues, AL 5.15, NL 4.38, home run rate, AL 0.517, NL 0.436. So this was as close as we're going to get to like a natural experiment of just how much can altering the ball in a very small way affect offense. And the answer is a lot. So if you're wondering why offense seems to have changed and

we keep saying, well, maybe the ball has something to do with it and it's these minuscule differences in the size or the seam height, we've seen this demonstrated in action 80 years ago, but still true. You change these parameters very slightly and the offensive effects are huge. So I didn't know about this example and it's kind of a perfect example to point to. I also never knew about that either. So yep, for anyone who has looked at the research that you've done, that MGL and that Rob Arthur have done

and you see these small little changes to the ball and you think there's no way that those changes could lead to 2000 more home runs or whatever at the major league level. Well, yep, yes, they can. They can and they have. Yeah. And I guess since this is our last pre-opening day podcast and we're on the subject already, final spring training stats update. We've both written about this. We've mentioned it briefly on the podcast. But through Monday, everything is up. Everything is at record rates, at least for the 2006 to 2018 spring stats period we have. And again, the correlations between just about everything in spring training to the major league season are very high, very strong. Generally, if something changes in the spring, it will also change in the

same direction in the regular season. And strikeout rates way up, home run rate way up, even more up than it was last spring. And we know what happened in the last regular season. So walk rates are up, hit by pitch rates are up, oddly. So just everything is up. Just baseball is getting more extreme. If you thought there was some chance that the ball was going to be back to whatever it was in 2014 or that something else was going to change nope looks like more fly balls even possibly so we're just going to get a an even more extreme version of baseball than we had last year from all appearances yep i'm still waiting on an answer to figure out whether spring training uses new balls or holdover balls but i would imagine that they're using new

baseballs because i don't know yeah how many holdover balls there would be so waiting on that but otherwise yep baseball is just going to be more baseball and everything is up except for balls in play so one thing i will introduce uh just we had talked to npb mvp dennis arfate late last year about his campaign, about his prospects of returning to the major leagues and just the course of his career and development. And Sarfate was not going to be posted. He was still under contract and he and his agent had talked about the likelihood that maybe Sarfate would come back or at least try to come back to the major leagues when his contract was up in one year because he has been so amazing. He's been one of the best relievers in the world. But word is

out that Sarfati has signed a three-year contract extension in Japan with the Softback Hawks. And it is worth, as we've talked about before, this sounds a lot cooler in foreign dollars, about 2 billion yen, which works out to roughly $19 million or so for a three-year contract. So, you know, it's not like Sarfati is taking anything, any sort of pay cut from what he likely could have gotten as a late 30s pitcher in the major leagues. But it looks like that will close the door on any possibility of Sarfati returning to the majors,

which is clearly not a bad thing for him. He signed the contract willingly. He didn't do this with a gun to his head. So he signed the contract. He's going to pursue some records over there, but we will not see him return, which is kind of a shame for him. He signed the contract willingly. He didn't do this with a gun to his head. So he signed the contract. He's going to pursue some records over there, but we will not see him return, which is kind of a shame for us, but great for the NPB. Yeah. Well, judging by a controversial Sarfati tweet that was posted in the Facebook group over the weekend and got hundreds of comments, which were mostly not pleased. I'm not sure our listeners are all that upset that he won't be back, but good for him getting paid.

He does deserve it because he's good at throwing baseballs. Alright, so let's take a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment with Jonathan Perrin, Brewers pitcher, to talk about the minor league pay situation. You know what we need, though. Money!

Where have you gone to? Money! Money, where have you gone to? Money, where have you gone to? I got to pay my bills, got to pay my rent. I'm hungry and tired, but my money's all spent. Money, where have you gone to? Money, where are you hiding? Where have you gone to? Money Where are you hiding?

Alright, so we are joined now by Jonathan Perrin, right-handed pitcher for the Milwaukee Brewers organization. Hey Jonathan, how are you doing? I'm doing well, good to be here. Yeah, nice to have you. We've enjoyed your tweeting and we're happy to have you on as an actual voice. We've enjoyed your tweeting, and we're happy to have you on as an actual voice. So for people who were not scouting the Southern League or the Arizona Fall League last season, can you give us a quick self-scouting report, just what type of pitcher you are? Definitely a control-based guy, sinker, slider. Just throw a lot of strikes, pitch to contact, try and get some quick outs.

I was able to pitch both out of the bullpen and starting rotation this past year. So just trying to provide some flexibility and do whatever I can to get to the big leagues, whether it is out of the bullpen or in the rotation, just trying to be flexible. Got to go to big league camp this year for the first time. And that was kind of the gist of what I was told is just to be flexible and embrace whatever role that we can get to innings at the big league level. And that's what I'm trying to do and continue that this year as well. I suspect certainly at the major league level we're going to see more and more these pitchers sort of occupying a hybrid role so you had mostly started before you had some bullpen experience but how do you how do you adjust and and stay comfortable going back and forth between roles what sort of changes do you have to make in your routine so that you're able to pitch out of the

bullpen and also out of the rotation well I think that that's the big r word for for any pitcher's routine uh staying consistent on a day-to-day basis just when you come into the ballpark and basically having i have like a 30 to 40 minute routine that whether i'm starting that day or what whether i'm coming out of the bullpen i'm going to do that exact routine every single day to prepare my body so i know at least that i'm going to do that exact routine every single day to prepare my body. So I know at least that I'm going to have that routine to keep me in check every day. And then you just kind of have to adjust on the fly as you go, depending on what role you're needed for that day. Just trying to, like I said, just trying to remain flexible and just be prepared on a day-to-day basis for whatever comes your way. So how have you adjusted at all as you've kind of climbed the ladder? You'll hopefully be pitching in AAA this season at altitude and

you had a lot of success at the AA level. So have you had to change anything about your pitch mix or are you just sort of the same guy that you were when you were drafted and it's just working all the way up? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I mean, I just feel like as you go up the ladder, the pitch execution just becomes much more imperative. Guys miss less mistakes the higher you go. So you really have to compete and execute at a very high level. And then I think the biggest shift for me going from high A to double A for a full season was really diving deep into the scouting reports. Pitching coach in double A, Chris Hook, who's now our coordinator,

he was really good about teaching us how to go through a lineup, getting in the film room, going over the scouting reports, going over the heat maps before each series, and again before each start, and again, before each start, if you were a starter, and really breaking down what hitters are trying to do, how we can use our strengths as pitchers to combat those. And then in the end, if it's strength versus strength, you always pitch to your own strength. Have you been instructed or thought about, clearly, since you started playing professional baseball,

there have been a lot more home runs at the level you're trying to reach. There's seemingly increased danger of pitching down in the zone, which of course is something pitchers have been told to do from a very young age for decades, certainly for as long as you've been pitching. So has the organization talked to you or have you considered on your own just different ways of trying to counteract what, certainly in the minor leagues, I don't know exactly what the baseballs have been doing. The home run rates haven't taken off like they have in the majors.

But is this something that you sort of have to keep in the back of your mind or maybe even more forward from that, trying to pitch around what's gone on with the baseball? Yeah, well, you're the stat guy, so you probably know this before I did, but I'm pretty sure 2017 was the most home runs ever hit in Major League Baseball, if I'm not wrong. Yeah, so, I mean, well, for one,

guys are bigger, faster, stronger than they've ever been. I think that has a lot to do with the training methods that are going on in baseball right now. I think, especially, even since I got into pro ball and since I'm playing elite-level college baseball the last five, six years, the training methods have gotten a lot better. Guys are just, their bodies are just better. So I think that has a lot to do with it. These guys walking up to the plate are no joke.

I mean, these guys are freak athletes with unbelievable hand-eye coordination but uh from a pitching standpoint I think again it just comes down to pitch execution you you can't worry about giving up home runs like obviously it's going to happen but the key is if you I think one of the biggest keys is if you're going to give them up give them up nobody on base solo shots aren't going to beat you it's the three run home runs that are going to really do damage for you and then to beat you it's the three run home runs that are gonna really do damage for you and then just i mean it's just executing down in the zone making your pitch and if you make your pitch and the guy still hits one out i mean that happens and sometimes you just have to tip your cap so uh obviously we we have you on for a number of reasons but the the primary

reason we'd like to talk to you is about the ongoing, now bubbling up conversation about money and the minor leagues. And you yourself, you're drafted twice, but the Brewers selected you in 2015 in the 27th round. I believe you were a senior sign out of Oklahoma State. I don't know your exact signing bonus, but I can guess. And you also have the unusual angle of you've been accepted into the University of Kansas Law School. For anyone who's not familiar with you, you are much more than just a baseball player, but you are you're a prospect, you are still climbing in the organizational ladder at only 24 years old, you have a lot of development left to go. But how do you how do you talk to yourself

about how long you want to or you're even able to push it as a baseball player before you have to consider career alternatives? Yeah, for me, luckily, I graduated college with no debt, which I know is extremely rare for a lot of people my age. So from that standpoint, I'm extremely lucky, which for me gives me a little bit more flexibility and a little bit more time to pursue this dream. I'm also not married. I don't have children. So I'm, you know, about in as good of a situation as you can have as far as from a lifestyle standpoint. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of guys I know in professional baseball. They're sitting there, you know, they got student loans coming up.

They got, you know, wives. They want to start families. And, you know, they're 25, 26. And they're sitting there going, I don't know how much longer I can do this. So it's definitely an issue for a lot of guys. For me, like, I told myself I'm going to play until somebody tells me I can't anymore or until I make it. But there's a lot of, for people in other situations that are not as fortunate as I am, that is definitely a real issue that comes up.

So in a normal, polite conversation, one wouldn't really ask how much money do you make? But to the extent that you are comfortable saying, for people who don't really have a great grasp on what minor leaguers make, could you give us some sense how it varies by level, how it varies by player, if at all, and how dependent that is on your bonus, which if you're not a top round pick is not going to be big. Yes. Okay. So let's break it down real quick. Starting salary, I think this is for everybody. It might be plus or minus a couple hundred dollars depending on your organization, but starting salary in rookie ball, A ball is $1,100 a month. And for those who don't know,

minor league baseball players are not paid year round. Neither are major league baseball players, but you're not paid year round. You are only paid during the time that you are actually in season. And that also does not include spring training. So you're taking an actual salary basically from April until the first week of September. So first year, rookie ball, A ball, you're looking at about $1,100 a month, give or take. Last year in AA, the salary got bumped up to $1,600 a month. And in AAA, I believe the starting salary is somewhere around $1,600 a month. And in AAA, I believe the starting salary is somewhere around $2,500 a month. And again, that's for the five and a quarter months of the actual minor

league season, not including spring training and definitely not including the off season. And what expenses are or are not taken care of by the team as far as lodging, food, transportation? Is some of that covered or are you shelling out of your own pocket for a lot of things? Okay. So again, it depends on the organization. So with the mock brewers, we do host families through A-ball. And I'm not sure if they do it in high A or not. They know they did it when I played in Brevard County in the Florida State League. I'm not sure if it's different now that we've switched affiliates and are now in the Carolina League. But in rookie ball, in Arizona League, they have a team apartments that are covered by the team. Advanced rookie in Helena and in low A in Wisconsin, you are given host families,

basically local people that live in the town. They basically bring you in, give you a bedroom, let you stay there. Some charge rent, some don't. So there's that. And then once you get to the upper levels, AA, AAA, then you're pretty much on your own, at least in our organization. There's a couple organizations that do host families all the way up. That's an option. But once you get to the upper levels, you're pretty much on your own finding your housing for the season. And that is definitely one of the toughest parts.

I mean, I'm not sure if you've ever tried to find a month-to-month lease on about six days' notice. That's a tricky situation sometimes. So that is definitely the hardest part. Again, and then food costs, it depends, again, on organization. The brewers are actually great about food cost I was talking to one of our strength coaches and actually the year I got into the organization in 2015 they like made a really big investment into the nutrition part of our organization for the minor league guys and they actually do a really good job they cater two meals a day for us so pre-game, come in off the field from BP,

and there's usually some sort of meal. Usually it's like sandwiches and fruit, typically. Could be something else. And then a postgame meal, which is nice. You get your carbs, your protein, salad, that type of thing. So the brewers actually do a great job of that. But I know that not all organizations take care of their players like that. But the brewers are definitely a

exemplary case in that regard so your your first year as a professional you had had a few appearances in the arizona league and then you went to wisconsin where you as you mentioned you had a host family and and this past year you spent almost the entire year with bloxy you pitched in the the fall league and i'm just going to assume that the Brewers had the same apartments arranged. But in 2016, you were with Wisconsin, then Brevard County, and then you made one appearance at the end of the season

with AA Bloxy. So you had mentioned that in AA, you were sort of on your own. So what was, if you can recall, what was your rental situation like? Because you made one appearance at the AA level in 2016. But I know that you can't really find like a one-day lease when you're looking for a place to live. So what was that situation like?

Because you made an appearance after a week in Brevard County. Yeah, so it was actually pretty lucky. We were on the road that series. So I just met the team. in the road that series so I was just I just met the team and usually whenever you get moved to an affiliate in our organization you get three days comped in the team hotel so they give you three days to basically figure your situation out but so I got there had a day in the team hotel then we went on a road trip to finish the season so I actually got really lucky and I was just able to stay in a hotel that whole time but uh going from Wisconsin to Brevard it was fly in I was in the hotel and I

was like hey guys like does anybody like have a spot and luckily for me that time they had made a corresponding roster move moving a guy to double a right when I got there so I just walked into the leasing office and switched over the name from the guy who got called up to my name so I got lucky both situations there but you know there's there's definitely times where guy gets moved shows up and all the rooms are full like all the guys that have different apartments wherever they're at and it's like well I guess I'm crashing on a couch until somebody leaves. So what are some of the cost-saving measures that minor leaguers will take, whether it's food?

Are you just going and getting fast food because it's the most calories you can get for your buck, basically? Are you carpooling, quadrupling up with teammates in an apartment so that you can all split the rent? And what do people do generally in the off season to try to make ends meet? Okay. Yeah. So for example, this past season in AA, we had four guys in a three bedroom apartment just so we could have that extra guy paying rent so it started out as myself and another teammate were actually sharing a room and then I came to the lovely conclusion that he snored like a freight train at night so I ended up moving out to the living room so the living room was my bedroom

for the whole season last year but so that's just kind of an example but you definitely have like you'll have guys you'll have like four or five guys sleeping on air mattresses in like a two or three bedroom apartment like fast food is a tricky one some guys do it some guys don't it just kind of depends on what you're willing to subject your body through you know I mean you're still trying to play at a high level right and you want to try and for most people i think you want to try and put the right fuel into your body but it definitely with the with the financial constraints it definitely can make it difficult and with the travel schedule too sometimes you you know you you get out of the game or you get off a bus and it's three o'clock in the morning and you're hungry.

Where else are you going to go? You've got about three options and none of them are very good at 3 a.m. when you pull off the bus. But those are just a few examples. I know certainly at the major league level, teams are studying sleep increasingly often. I think a lot of teams have sleep consultants and just emphasizing the importance of rest. But I would imagine that when you're at the minor league level, at any level of the minors, things can be a little more haphazard.

So have you been able to in your three years, two and a half years as a professional, to sort of maintain a consistent and healthy sleep schedule? Or do you find that there are too many stressors and sort of suboptimal travel schedules to be able to get the seven or eight hours that you need every night yeah i mean even in the big leagues you're gonna have the long travel nights like if you're flying like a cross-country flight or something like that like it's like there's gonna be days where you

like you're just you got nothing like you're you're rolling in at 4 a.m., and that's that. Like, it's going to happen from time to time. We do actually, there's a couple guys in our, there's a couple guys at each level that were doing sleep studies, even in the minor leagues. Like, again, the brewers are very proactive. They do, they do do, I think, from an organizational standpoint, a better job than most organizations at the minor league level. So we had guys doing sleep studies, trying to track their sleep, but yeah, the long bus trips, I mean, the fabled long bus trips that you hear about in the minor leagues,

those are definitely true. I mean, getting done with a game at 11 o'clock at night and then getting on a bus for eight hours and rolling into the next town, like that happens more often than you would want, but that's just kind of a part of the grind, and I don't think that's really going to go anywhere anytime soon. That's just baseball. That's what happens when you play every day.

So if money were no object for a major league organization, and maybe money is no object, but if they actually treated it that way and spent as much as made sense on minor leaguers at every level where guys just have a place to stay and don't have to sleep in the same room as someone who snores? Or, you know, if there is a really long bus trip,

maybe you take a prop plane instead of driving all night and getting no sleep. Or, you know, what other things like that could make a difference to someone's development? Okay. Yeah. So I would say say talking just in personal experience and talking with other players the two biggest obstacles are one the housing during the season and then the biggest one probably for everybody is the off season so like i said we

only get paid first of all you're only getting only getting paid anywhere from if you're not a minor league free agent, which it doesn't happen until after your six years are up. So you're basically making between $1,100 or $2,500 a month. You're making it for five and a quarter months. And then your income stops in September. And then you have to wait until February, March. And then you get meal money in spring training. And then you start getting your paychecks again in April. So you basically have six months of expenses that you have to cover, and it's very hard to save during the season because of how, you know, if you're doing a month-to-month lease, you're going to get charged more.

So basically, I mean, most places, you're basically one of your paychecks a month is going to rent, and then the other one is what you live off of. So it's hard to save for the offseason. So, I mean, I pick up – most guys pick up jobs in the offseason. I've picked up jobs waiting tables, giving pitching lessons, whatever you need in the offseason. And then the housing is extremely tough to, one, find and, two, pay for. is extremely tough to one find and to pay for. So like I said, I think if you gave team covered expenses during the season with housing, or if they gave you like a living stipend,

I think that would greatly reduce the stressors. Or if you just paid us the same amount of money, like if you paid the same salary, but you just made it a 12-month salary structure that then i don't think you would hear you would hear a lot less complaints let's just put it that way because the off season is the hardest part you go home again you're probably like you're probably getting a six-month lease and an apartment so and then you got to find a job to cover those expenses or your second option is you know living on a buddy's couch or mom's basement or something like that. So I think if you could help cover the living costs during the season and or maybe make it a 12-month salary structure, those would probably be some solutions that would be helpful that are not just pay minor leaguers more.

Right. So obviously everyone who goes through the minor league system is affected by this the guys who sign large bonuses are able to get by with their millions of dollars but you know they're they're probably the the overwhelming majority of minor league baseball players would be dissatisfied with their compensation but at the same time the overwhelming majority of them would be uncomfortable going on the record because, of course, you're also trying to climb the ladder and get to the majors and you understand you're playing the game, living the dream and all those cliches. So how are you able to sort of agitate for your cause, your collective cause, while straddling the line? Because, of course,

you're not represented by the Major League Baseball Players Union or any sort of players union. So how do you push for a better compensation without making yourself too much of a bother for the organization to put up with? Yeah, I mean, I'm not here trying to really agitate anyone. I'm just trying to bring awareness to what's going on. I think if you bring awareness, then, you know, then possibly things will start to get changed as you get more people talking about it. And then just like, like we just talked about trying to come to some common sense, you know, solutions that are not just a pay us more because like major league baseball, they got, they got the save America past time act put into the budget bill like they

lobbied congress they did all these things like they're a business they are it's a they're making a savvy business move i'm not much like it affects me and it it may or may not hurt me but at the same time like i understand why they're doing it they're making a very savvy business move so for me it's just trying to bring awareness to the situation and let help the fans realize that those guys at those minor league at those minor league games like the vast majority of them don't have a million dollars in their bank account and the vast majority of them are really grinding it out and i think that's the biggest part of of what i'm trying to do is just bring awareness to the situation like we know we signed up for it like every single guy that signed the contract knows exactly what they're getting into we may not like it but like you said it's an opportunity

you're basically taking a mortgage out on your future self trying to make it in a industry that i'm a back end if you do make it if you do succeed and you do get through the grind that is minor league baseball the fruits of your labor are absolutely ridiculous once you do make it to the major league level obviously as a player all players are aware of what has taken place at the major league free agent market this past winter, where it seemed like the middle class just had the drug pulled out from underneath them. And it's been a big conversation for a number of months now. So would you figure that the awareness of how the free agent market at the major league level has changed, is that a good thing or a bad thing for the the general minor league player cause because on the one hand it sheds a lot of light on the the player's share of compensation but on the other hand it sheds almost all that light on the guys like neil walker or

mike mastakis instead of players like yourself and your teammates yeah well i think from a player perspective i mean we're all in this together. Minor league players aren't represented by the Major League Players Union. But at the same time, once again, we're trying to get to where those guys are. And that affects everyone in the player pool. So I think seeing a lot of these headlines with free agency, I think that does bring cause to the whole player pool in general by just bringing awareness like, wow, these guys are really having it. Even at the big league level now, these guys are kind of starting to have a tough go of it. But again, I mean, these guys that are the owners and the GMs, they didn't get to where they were at by being bad business people. So they're making

savvy business moves and it falls on us, the players, to, I guess, counteract those business moves with our own and trying to bring awareness to what's going on and then see where we can go from there. Yeah. So I was going to ask you how word travels among the players. I mean, you're intending to be a lawyer someday. I'm assuming that you're paying closer attention to legal matters than the typical minor league player. So how did, for instance, you find out about the Save America's Pastime Act, which I hate calling it because it's such a ridiculous name, but we need to just come up with some other name for it that is more accurate, I guess, that don't pay minor leaguers more than minimum wage act, whatever it is.

How did you find out about it? How does the typical player find out about it? Are players keeping close tabs on the class action lawsuit, the Garrett Brocious effort to try to change something? Or are most guys kind of just putting their heads down and trying to be good at baseball? Well, the baseball community is very small, so we're traveling extremely fast, and especially in this day and age with social media.

I mean, if you're scrolling through Twitter and you see some other guy that you see as a ball player, I mean, that pops up on your feed, you follow him. And it's a small, tight-knit circle. I mean, we're a special group of people who is a small group who all kind of have the same mindset and the same interests. So we're traveling extremely fast in the baseball community. I actually saw the Save America Pastime Cop up on my Twitter feed.

It was like one of the news articles that came up, and there was like a whole thing on twitter about it and i started scrolling through it started then got on my computer did some more research and that's kind of how i started realizing what was going on and then obviously the budget got passed last week and that got codified into law so here we are i think that uh from if someone was going to make a counter argument to the idea that minor leaguers should be paid a lot of money, just take it from the team's perspective, you could say, well, a lot of the best prospects have gotten large signing bonuses.

Prospects haven't had too much trouble emerging before. There's not a whole lot of professional competition for players who were in the minor league. So how would you, how would you make the strongest argument in favor of players deserving to make at least a 12-month salary instead of five and a half? Have you seen teammates who have been forced to walk away before they reach their prime? Have you seen teammates who are just struggling to reach their ceiling because they had too many other stressors in their life? How would you make the strong general argument that this is, I guess I don't want to make you say unfair, but not as good as it could be? I think my argument for it would be,

number one, from a development standpoint, if you want us to be completely focused on our training during the offseason, because this is a full-time job. It is a yearly thing. I don't stop being a baseball player at the end of the season in September. During the offseason, I'm still eating right, working out every day, throwing, getting my arm ready for spring training. Those things don't stop when you go home the off season. So my argument would be if you can either one help help us shoulder the cost during the season so that we can save more to get us through the off season or just pay us a yearly salary during the off season so that I don't have to worry about

I don't have to get up at six o'clock in the morning to go work out then go work a shift at a job then come then come back home and get my throwing in after work, then that's better for my development, which helps you create, one, better competition in the minor league. Two, it creates a better product. It allows younger players to spend more time on their development to get better quicker. And three, if you have created better product down in the minor league system, that is going to enhance, those guys are going,

some of those players are going to be on your major league club, which creates a better product at the major league level. So I would say my argument would be it's an investment in your youth movement, in your organization. Yeah, and there's a hierarchy

in every clubhouse at every level of baseball, just based on how good you are and what your perceived prospect status is. But in a minor league clubhouse, there must be an economic disparity that is unlike any of our workplaces probably where you might just be lockering next to a millionaire while you are making $1,100 a month. And even in the majors, everyone's at least a hundreds of thousand air. So does it hurt the clubhouse atmosphere at all if there is, say, the top pick who has the nice car and got the big bonus and everyone else is sleeping four to an apartment? Or do those guys tend to spread the wealth around in some way or just not be flashy and ostentatious about it? I mean, how does that unfold?

Oh, it honestly depends on your clubhouse. There's the stories of the bonus babies, you know, driving a Mercedes and a Range Rover, flashing their money around. Like, that happens. That definitely happens. There's other guys that are just, just you know they just keep it low key don't really say anything about it so it kind of just is a player to player and clubhouse to clubhouse situation but there's definitely I mean I'm not going to sit there and say that there's not probably some jealousy and a little bit of bitterness if you will from some some players

towards others based on a financial standpoint. I would definitely say that that exists, but that's just the way it is. It's not like those guys didn't deserve the bonuses they got. They worked hard and they came through and got those bonuses that they got. The team thought they were deserving of being paid that kind of money. So you can't fault them for getting paid yeah when you were in college you pitched

you were teammates with coda glover and now he wasn't a super high draft pick and i don't even know if you were friends but i'm just going to make an assumption here he was taken in the eighth round and he's made it to the to the major league so are you are you in touch with coda glover and and i guess a sort of similar question how do you feel about former college teammates who have been able to make it to the majors and greatly increase their own financial standing yeah coda's a good friend i haven't really kept up with him too much i let him last time i talked to him a few months ago but he's never gonna fight anyone else in success i mean mean, he's my boy. Like, seeing another former college teammate get to the big leagues,

I mean, that's nothing but joy, absolutely nothing but joy for anyone that gets that call. For example, my roommate last year in AA, Taylor Williams, grinded it out all season with us. Gets his September call up, and there wasn't one guy in the clubhouse that was not happy cheering for him. I mean, we're all struggling together. So it's almost like when one guy in the clubhouse that was not happy cheering for him. I mean, we're all like, we're all struggling together. So when it's almost like when one guy makes it out and like one guy gets

there, like you get, you can't have just sit there, but be happy for him and be like, wow, man, like you, you accomplished a dream. Like it's awesome. So nothing, nothing but good things to say about Kota. And I was extremely happy for him when I saw him get called up so quickly. So I'm never going to fight anyone else's success. You know, not everyone can succeed and that's just a fact of the matter. But when one of your guys that you're friends with and you knew from back in the day gets there, that's just the best. I mean, you can't help but be happy for

someone like that. Yeah. So I can understand why the MLB Players Association doesn't just swallow the minor leaguers and have it be just a professional baseball players association. That would be nice, I guess. But sometimes those two groups' goals are in conflict or not really aligned. It might be difficult to make that work. But it would be would be nice I guess if you at least heard more major leaguers as you're saying raising awareness of this because almost every major leaguer was at one point a minor leaguer and maybe they tended to be bigger bonus guys but certainly not all of them and I don't know I'm sure there are some guys who speak up but you don't hear a lot of say star players come players come out, at least that I've noticed, and say, we need to pay minor leaguers. I was a minor leaguer, and I was barely making ends meet,

and maybe I wouldn't have made it here if it had been harder for me. So I don't know. I mean, is there a sense among minor leaguers that, hey, it would be nice if major leaguers had our back, or is it just kind of like once you get to the big leagues you just you know you're the one who made it yeah you just don't look back well i mean especially now after this past offseason they've kind of got their own problems to worry about yeah but i think to be honest i think the minor league grind is almost like a badge of honor it's like okay like this sucks like even you know even being in major league camp this year like guys acknowledge it like it's not like guys in the big leagues forget how brutal the minor league is can be sometimes but they're like yeah man you granted

it out just get here that's kind of the attitude just get here it'll be better yeah but i so i think it's more of a badge of honor everyone had to go through it to get there you know whether you sign for a big bonus or not you're still making very little on a on a monthly basis so yeah it's i think it's more seen as a badge of honor to guys that actually made it through and got to the big league level and i mean what it's not it's not like once you get to that level i just feel like i mean the consensus is probably well it's not really your problem and it's not so they got out they're they're they got their own things to worry about and i mean there's it's no fault to them for not bringing awareness because they're not in it anymore it's not it's not necessarily their problem

ken rosenthal tweeted out an article today that was quoting some major league players anonymously who were, I guess, some supportive of union leadership Tony Clark, but also some less supportive of Tony Clark. And there was the perspective that he put out there that a lot of people think that Tony Clark should get some more legal support. Now, I don't know exactly what you want to do with a law degree down the road, graduating and coming back to work in baseball on the labor side to try to fight for the rights of the players that your teammates with right now. That's exactly where I wanted to go. My ultimate goal would be to work for the Players Union at

some point. That's pretty much exactly where I'd like to go. In camp this year, talking with Craig Council, our manager, he was the player rep for the union. He and I had some very interesting conversations about kind of the labor negotiations that he was a part of while he was a player. The things that he discussed were really interesting. So that's something I'm definitely interested in.

I want to play baseball as long as I can, but after getting out, I would definitely want to come back and work for the players and continue to help fight for what they deserve and get their fair share. Definitely, that's exactly where I'd like to go with that. I wanted to ask you about that. Of course, Council was a player and he was a player who was working with the union. But also now he's, you know, managers now at the major league level are sort of caught in this in-between. And I think a lot of them are perceived as sort of front office puppets, if you will. And I don't mean to impugn Craig Council's backbone or character, but of course, he's sort of representing a different cause now. So I don't know how often you've actually talked to him about the stuff, but where do his sympathies, I guess, lie? Because you can understand that from his perspective, he's caught in a tricky position where he's supposed to be supportive of the front office,

but at the same time, he has an interest in supporting the labor side. And there are a lot of players in Brewer's camp who might have some questions about the current state of baseball's labor. Yeah, I can't really speak on that part. You'd have to talk to him about that. But he was just very encouraging when I told him about my goal. He said, yeah, man, that's a great goal. And it's something that I was really passionate about. It's good to see young guys coming up that are wanting to be involved like that. But as far as his perspective and stuff, you'll have to ask him.

So you work part-time as an investment manager, right? And you give investment advice to players at times and they set up a table for you in the clubhouse this spring to, I don't know, I guess make fun of you a little bit, hopefully in an affectionate way. And can you give investment advice to a minor leaguer who's making $1,100 a month? Or is that just kind of beyond the scope? I mean, are most guys just not able to think about future investments because they're just

trying to survive day to day? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the biggest thing that you can learn how to do on such a meager salary is learn how to budget. Yeah. That's the one thing that you can get really good at. And you have you have to be disciplined when you're making that kind of money. You have to be disciplined, know how much money is going out on a monthly basis. I mean, even at sixteen hundred a month, you can still save. You still can. It's not much, but you can still save. So as far as actual investments, like maybe things like Robin Hood or something like that,

like small time, small time stuff. I mean, if you have a bonus, then yeah, you should definitely be investing. But the biggest thing is you can still budget, you can still learn how to be disciplined, knowing how much money is coming in and going out every month, is you can still budget you can still learn how to be disciplined knowing how much money is coming in going out every month and you can still save you know on 1600 a month it might not be much but you can still do it do you have any concern at all about the perception of a player who has interest outside of baseball there's no reason why a player shouldn't have outside interests, but there is kind of this old school mentality in sports. Maybe it's more of a football thing than a baseball thing. I don't know. But the idea that you just have to be 100% focused on baseball, and if you're

doing anything else or looking forward to the future, then people might question your commitment. So, you know, in your Twitter bio, you say future lawyer, and maybe you're a future lawyer in 25 years after your 20 year big league career. But are you worried that someone will read that and say, well, if he wants to be a lawyer so much, maybe he doesn't want to be a baseball player enough or that kind of attitude? Yeah, well, I mean, so for me, I'm 100% committed to baseball. Everything I do in my life still revolves around baseball. I make sure I get my sleep. I make sure I eat properly.

I make sure I'm at the field. I'm one of the first ones at the field every day. Make sure everything gets done. Baseball is the number one thing. And so people from the outside looking in that aren't with me on a day-to-day basis might have their own perceptions. But for me, those people's opinions don't matter. The people that are around me on a day-to-day basis and they know what I'm about, they know that I'm completely committed to baseball. And yes, I do have interests outside

of baseball, but everyone does. I might just be a little bit more vocal and outspoken about some of those interests just because of the nature of what I like, I guess. But everyone has interests. Some guys go home and play video games for eight hours a day. I go home and read articles and read books for however many hours a day, try and educate myself. So everybody has outside interests. I may be a little more outspoken, but in the end, my life is 100% committed to baseball and everything I do. So this issue has gotten a lot more awareness lately, which is good. And in part, that's because of the law, which is sort of a setback in some ways. But is there any outlook for near-term, short-term change in any significant way? Do you think that there will be an organization that kind of breaks ranks and says,

we're going to pay these guys more or improve conditions in some way? Or will it have to be some kind of collective action or a lawsuit, which is more difficult now that this law is in place? I guess, you know, will we still be having this conversation in five years, 10 years, 20 years? Or is there a timeline that you could see it significantly changing? I mean, as far as the timeline for actual significant change, I couldn't tell you. I mean, it's codified into law now. So Major League Baseball won on that regard,

and that was a savvy business move on their part. But at the same time, while we did take a step back with that law, it got the conversation kind of rekindled, and it kind of, you know, the headline of with that law it got the conversation kind of rekindled and it kind of you know the headline of the save america's pastime act and everyone's kind of looking around like wait hang on what like so i think from that perspective i think it at least started the conversation again like it kind of brought it more into the public eye and as long as that conversation continues i think you might see some progress. Whether or not we see some significant change, I don't have a crystal ball, I couldn't

tell you. But I think bringing awareness and having that conversation out there is a good start. So just to wrap things up here, I was switching back to baseball real quick. I noticed when you made your debut for that one game on the road in double A with Bloxy, you had the misfortune of not only facing a Braves affiliate and they were stacked, but you also got the hit and you got the hit against Sean Newcomb, which is pretty unfortunate for you. And maybe unsurprisingly, you struck out. At least it took four pitches and not three. But I want to read a line from a from a line score from August 14th, this past August 14th, and it reads, John Perrin singles on a soft ground ball to third baseman Jason Vosler. Maybe it's

Vosler. I don't know. I can't find any evidence that you ever hit in college. As a professional, you are now one for 23 with 11 strikeouts. How well do you remember this? Oh, man. I remember that at-bat against Newcomb really well, too. I hadn't been in the box since I was like 17 years old. And my first at-bat in six, seven years is against a 6'6 lefty throwing in the mid-90s. And I'm sitting there going... I remember the first pitch out of his hand it was like about up in my eyes took it for a ball like oh that wasn't that bad like i saw that pretty well look up at the scoreboard 94 i was like okay like i think i

can time this up next pitch changed one on the outside corner at the knees i was like oh my gosh i looked about 20 miles an hour harder look up at the scoreboard 93 i was like oh gosh and i'm pretty sure the next the next two the next two pitches i swung when the ball was actually in his glove but yeah no i was fired up i was fired up about that hit uh so my teammate luis ortiz and i I, it was August and both of us still had zero hits on the season so we had a kind of a little friendly competition to see who could get the first hit of the season and I hit a little dribbler swinging bunt thing on the third baseline and I was like I kind of got out of the box pretty well. I was like oh my gosh I got a shot. I was running, I kind of got out of the box pretty well. I was like, oh, my gosh, I got a shot.

I was running as fast as I possibly could. Felt like I was running in quicksand. And I hit the bag, and I look down, and the bullpen is down the right field corner. And the whole bullpen is going nuts. I was like, yes, I'm safe. Oh, my God, I did it. So that was pretty funny. But, yes, I now have a career hit.

So Milwaukee is not in the DH League. Are you looking forward if you do make the majors? Is this something that is going to be a plus or a minus? Are you going to be dreading having to take at-bats every day against the best pitchers in the world or would that be a fun challenge in some way oh it's a fun challenge for sure i mean as a competitor it's just like wow okay like who we got today like in our division like who we got today oh yeah you got lester or you know you got you got somebody who's really good like oh you got wayne right oh sick all right i've seen this on tv before i can't wait to see what this looks like in a box so for me it'll be a fun challenge it's going to be a difficult one that i'll probably struggle at but i'm looking forward to it for sure well the good news is the baseline is so low with the if you get three hits in a season i think that makes you a

pretty good hitting pitcher hey yeah as long as you get the bunts a season, I think that makes you a pretty good hitting pitcher. Hey, yeah, as long as you get the bunts down, that's all that really matters. All right. Well, it's been great having you on. Not every player is willing to talk about this stuff, and we're glad that you are. And I don't know whether minor leaguers should root for you to start your legal career sooner so that you can start helping them from that angle, or for you to make the majors so that you can have a bigger public platform there definitely root for me to make the majors and let me play about 15 years there first yeah hopefully you get to do both and uh we'll uh check in with you again sometime good luck

in colorado springs if that's where you end up spending this season and remember to park adjust your stats because that's okay and you should and you can find Jonathan on Twitter at jperrin46 unlike Jeff he is verified so you know that it's him and it's been great

having you on thanks Jonathan awesome thanks for having me alright that will do it for this episode and for this off season. Thank you to helping us through a long winter without baseball. And thanks for letting us help you through this long winter without baseball. The next one is a long way away. And you can support this podcast on Patreon now and throughout the season by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild and signing up to make a small monthly pledge. Five listeners who have recently done. So include Evan,

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Thanks to Dylan Higgins for editing assistance. Please keep your questions and comments coming for me and Jeff at podcast at fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system. We didn't get to emails today, but maybe next time, maybe next week, depending on what else arises. Enjoy watching Real Baseball. And we will be back later this week

to talk to you about Real Baseball. Happy opening day. Put your money on me If you think I'm losing you, you must be crazy Put your money on me I'm never gonna let you go, even when it's easy Put your money on me Tuck me in the bed and wake me when I'm dead I know that you gotta be free But I'm never gonna let you go