Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1225: Such is This Game, and Such is John Jaso

Episode Date: June 2, 2018

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan banter about Clayton Kershaw‘s latest back injury, the “opener” strategy spreading to L.A., and the unexpected sources of production that have helped keep the Dodgers in the race, as well as Kole Calhoun‘s historically slow offensive start to the season, Jaime Barria and record-setting pitch counts within innings, Indians rookie […]

Sucks in life, an old man died in a sleep when a child was born today, yeah, sucks in life A brother got shot in the park, but a sister got a donated heart, uh, sucks in life Somebody got fired at the age of 50 with no pension plan, uh, sucks in life Somebody got hired out of college, got a place and a cast of fans, uh, sucks in life Sucks his life you are of yourself. You are not of the ringer. You are a human being. The ringer is just a part of your existence. In this episode, we'll be joined by Admiral John Jaso, formerly of baseball glory, currently master of the open seas, or at least will shortly become master of the open seas. But before we get to our long overdue or underdue, I don't know. I can't tell if we're supposed to

have more podcasts after this one because we kind of got to the the holy land but anyway before we talk to john jayce before about an hour we have some other stuff to talk about i guess clayton kershaw is hurt again so yes he is this is a disappointing week for uh baseball pitching fanatics because alex reyes made his long-awaited return to the mound and he was okay and then he was hurt and clayton kershaw made his own long away to return to the band he was okay and then he was hurt for reyes it's a lat strain he'll be fine for clayton kershaw it's a back problem we'll see so we have talked on several occasions this year about what it would take for clayton kershaw to not opt out of his contract yeah i don't know

how bad this back problem is going to be i don't know if there's already been news while we've been talking but this is back problem is recurring and i'm not saying clayton kirsch i won't opt out but if he were going to have a season after which he wouldn't opt out it would probably look a lot like this one yeah you're right i was watching his stuff as he was pitching last night and he was topping out at 90 and usually below 90, and that was obviously disconcerting. He didn't pitch poorly, but even in his last inning when he struck out the side, which is obviously a good thing, he was throwing lots of off-speed stuff, and he just didn't seem to have even the velocity

that he had earlier in this year, which was itself a big drop-off from before. So in a sense, it's nice to know, I guess, that there was something going on, except that what was going on is what has been plaguing him over the last couple years and is something that's tough to come back from. So it is pretty dismaying that this continues to be a problem for him. And I keep hoping that we will see Pete Kershaw back again, but it just looks less and less likely. And by the way, we will see Pete Kershaw back again, but it just looks

less and less likely. And by the way, there was news, not that it's unexpected news, but he is on the disabled list with a lower back strain, which is the same thing that he was on the disabled list for five weeks for last year. So this is the third year in a row and the fourth and five that he's had some sort of back problem. So bad news. Yes. I don't know. I don't know what else there is. What do you have? Well, we can talk about the new thing that the Dodgers are doing, not directly because of Clayton Kershaw, but maybe partly because of rotation issues. The opener is spreading. It's not just a raise trick now.

The Dodgers are using an opener. Lefty Scott Alexander, who has never made a major league start, obviously hasn't been around as long as Sergio Romo, but he's a reliever and he is opening. He is going to be starting for the Dodgers. So the opener, we talked about this with Joshian about how many teams should or would use this. And I think the applications are somewhat limited. You wouldn't want every team to be using this every game but we have a second team now using the opener and starting a game with a reliever it is my job it is your job but also it is my job to be aware of everything that's happening in baseball or at least as much as is

possible and i'm going to be honest with you i had absolutely no idea i did not know scott alexander was opening for the dodgers. When was this announced? This is, well, I don't know. It's happening very shortly. It will have happened by the time people hear this. Wow. Well, I have maybe curated my news feed to be a little too tight. This one is news to me. I did know that recently there was on Jerry DePoto's propaganda podcast,

he was talking about whether the Mariners would use an opener, and no, they will not. He had some things to say regarding gray areas and nuance and whatnot, and how maybe a more established pitching staff would be less open to a change like this,

which is not anything surprising. The older you are, the more close-minded you are about how you are going to do your work. I've experienced that because I have my routine and I'm stuck to it. So the opener will not be coming to Seattle, at least not anytime soon, until they have a younger pitching staff, which based on their farm system will be in approximately never.

But we do have Tampa Bay. We do have the Dodgers. I don't know who's going to do it next. Maybe the Orioles should consider exclusively using openers. Single-inning inning pitchers but I guess I shouldn't pick on the Orioles there's no reason to yeah well who needs openers or who needs Clayton Kershaw when you have Ross Stripling anyway right Ross Stripling is uh he's an ace now I guess I don't know what happened there but uh Ross Stripling has a 168 ERA with like 11 strikeouts per nine. So that happened. I don't know whether that's more surprising or as we speak, Matt Kemp is leading the National League in batting average, which I know batting average, but he's just all around been a really great hitter this year.

So that was not something that we forecast either. Yep. Nope. Not at all. It turns out that the fact that Matt Kemp got into better shape maybe did help uh it's helped kyle schwarber a little bit it's helped matt kemp so i don't want to exaggerate things as they are but the dodgers are creeping back toward the division lead which has kind of long been inevitable and they have been powered in large part not exclusively but in large part by matt kemp who i didn't think would make the roster ross stripling who I didn't think would make the roster, Ross Stripling, who I didn't think would be in the rotation, and Max Muncy, who I didn't think about at all. So Max Muncy has been very good. Ross Stripling has been even better. Kemp is there. He's hitting. He's got 14 home runs, which leads the team. I guess you could

say this is an example of how the Dodgers have a whole lot of depth and they rely on that depth. I would not have considered Matt Kemp and Max Muncy to be valuable parts of that depth, but that's why the Dodgers are the Dodgers. And I'm a guy who's sitting at his Ikea desk talking about baseball on a Friday afternoon on a podcast. Yeah. You know, yesterday we talked about Josh Tomlin and how he is an outlier in the sense that he gives up more home runs than he allows walks. And no one else has done that close to the length of time that he has done that. If there's going to be a challenger to Josh Tomlin, it could be the pitcher who made his major league debut this week for the Indians and started right after that. We talked about

Josh Tomlin, Shane Bieber, who is a 23-year-old right-hander. He came up. He had an up-and-down start. He went five and two-thirds. I think it started well, and then things sort of unraveled. He did strike out six. He walked one, and he allowed two home runs. And so currently, he has allowed more home runs than he has walks.

And looking at his minor league stats, which are extremely impressive, but he came close to doing it. So his minor league career, three seasons, he threw 262 and two thirds innings with a 2.6 ERA. He got some strikeouts. The notable things though, are that he walked half a batter per nine innings in his whole minor league career. That's pretty impressive. And his home run rate is actually also pretty impressive. But in the minors, he allowed 11 homers and 15 walks. So he was pretty close. So if major league hitters hit more home runs against him and he continues to maintain that control, he could be another Tomlin on the team that has had Tomlin all these years. So maybe he will be the successor.

And he throws kind of hard. I was watching a few clips. This fastball is getting up into the low to mid 90s. So Shane Bieber, he's like Josh Tomlin, except with fewer boots probably and more velocity. Joe Musgrove came up with the Astros a while ago, a while ago, a few years ago, like three years ago. Jesus. Anyway, Musgrove in the minors was another one of those like control

artists who was uh trying to just be better than his stuff because he always threw strikes musgrove in the minors walked 45 batters and 362 innings he had a walk rate per nine of 1.1 shane beavers is half of that less than half of that 0.5 walks per nine innings that is i i knew about it but even just looking at it now live on the air it's really incredible also of of bieber's 15 career minor league walks two were intentional yeah so one other follow-up that i have to a thing we talked about last time which is cole calhoun not being good at baseball i have a tweet that we both received, actually. This is from Evan Boyd and Chase. They, I believe, are both at Stats, the company Stats, and tweeted at us a fun but also extremely unfun fact that Cole Calhoun is the first player to have an average OBP slug. So have a slash line all under 200 before June since Tony Martinez in 1963.

That is among qualified hitters. So Cole Calhoun, first qualified hitter since 1963 to be slashing sub 200 in all three areas. He's at 145, 195, 179. That is pretty rough pretty rough however that very season Tony Martinez now he looked like he was demoted to the minors after May 25th because he wasn't hitting but he came back and that September Tony Martinez batted 067 oh no so you're saying it gets worse. It gets worse. But I've got some feelers. I want to write about Cole Calhoun. I really do. I also don't want to look too closely at this.

It feels, I don't know, grotesque. And I just don't want to direct more attention to it than is necessary because, you know, Cole Calhoun is going through a hard time. But this is so extreme. I know that as long as Chris Davis is doing what he's doing, Cole Calhoun's going through a hard time but yeah this is this is so extreme I know that as long as Chris Davis is doing what he's doing then Cole Calhoun is completely alone but this is gonna sound worse than I want but I want for there to be like some horrible off-field explanation for what Calhoun is going through because I don't want I don't want to believe that this can happen to a major league baseball player without good reason but I don't know I guess that's something we can look

back at in a week or two. Hopefully he turns it around. Yeah, well, it can't really get worse because he just had, by my play indexing, the seventh lowest OPS ever in May. That's back to 1908. Cole Calhoun had a 314 OPS this May. Again, that is the seventh worst ever. Minimum 80 plate appearances. And if you go by split OPS plus, so that's relative to the league,

he was at negative 10. That would be the sixth worst May of all time. So June's going to be better. I can feel it. And one other Angels related follow-up. This is something we talked about much earlier in the year. Remember the Brandon Belt 21 pitch plate appearance and the inning was thrown by the Angels' Jaime Barilla. It was a 49-pitch top of the first inning, and it was scoreless, and there was some conversation about what's the most pitches thrown in a scoreless inning, and the data people did data things and found some previous examples that seemed to be more pitches in scoreless innings. There was some belief that maybe Scott Leinbrink had thrown a 52-pitch

squirrel sinning in 2010. Well, our listener, Rob Stilwell, and his brother did some real digging here. They just could not believe that anyone had ever surpassed what Jaime Burria did in this inning. And it's true. Jaime Burria actually does now hold the record, the post-1988 record, because we don't have pitch-by-pitch data from pre-1988. So it turns out that there were some data issues. There were pitches being double-counted in that line brink outing and in some other outings like that. So Jaime Barilla, on April 22nd, he now holds the record for most pitches in a scoreless inning. Nick Bierbrot was the second to place guy, 48 pitches in 2001. And

while Rob's brother was at it, he looked up some other records of this nature. And so the most pitches ever thrown in a half inning period is 97. No! It was not one pitcher. It was three pitchers. But this was on April 19th, 1996, Rangers against Orioles. And yeah, it was bottom pitchers but this was on april 19th 1996 rangers against orioles and yeah it was uh bottom of the eighth 16 runs were scored and 97 pitches were thrown second place 91 pitches that was 14 runs off three pitchers that's june 27th 2003 and uh And Johnny Damon hit a single, a double, and a triple in that inning. Three-fourths of the cycle in a single inning. The most pitches thrown by one pitcher, 61 by Russ Ortiz. This was in the top of the second, July 26th, 1997. He allowed seven runs against the Cardinals. That is the most 61 pitches thrown by Russ Ortiz. So thank you, Rob and Rob's brother, for correcting the record here. We were actually witnessing history, and now we know even more history.

All right. I'm sorry. I have to do this. I looked to the Rangers Orioles box score. It was 10-7 Rangers after the top of the eighth. Armando Benitez replaces Roger McDowell pitching. Jeffrey Hammonds moves from pinch hitter to left fielder. Mike Devereaux moves from left field to right field.

Single, steal, walk, wild pitch, walk, double, fly ball, home run, single, single, single, walk, single, walk, walk, walk, walk, fly ball, walk, home run, ground out. Coming out to throw the top of the ninth is the same pitcher who got the last out of the top of the eighth, Ed Vosberg, who sits in the dugout for 97 pitches and 16 runs. He comes out, allows a single to walk, gets a double play and a fly ball. Ed Vosberg gets the save, ends with a Bobby Bonilla fly ball. Vosberg the save in a 19-run game.

It's not quite the Wes Littleton save, but in a sense it is. Because to sit, I don't know how long that half inning took, but 97 pitches. Okay, let's do some estimates here. This is 1996. You figure with all those balls in play, you're looking at, I don't know, an average of third. Also, all those base runners. So maybe an average of, I don't know, an average of third, also all those base runners. So maybe an average of like 35 seconds between pitches, would you say?

Maybe. So, okay. So let's try 97 times 35 divided by 60. That's a 56 and a half minute inning. That's an hour that Ed Vosburgh, including commercial breaks, because there were pitching changes as well. Because Manny Alexander replaced Jesse Orozco. Manny Alexander being an infielder

who was actually caught with steroids. He replaced Jesse Orozco. Jesse Orozco had replaced Armando Benitez, who started the inning. All those base runners, all those pitches, all those breaks. So I think that conservatively, an hour passed between Ed Vosburgh

getting his first out and then giving up a single to Billy Ripken. My God, I don't know how little the Rangers thought of Ed Vosburgh, but at least he got a save to his name. Yeah. All right. And last thing, J.R. Smith was infamous on Thursday. was infamous on Thursday. He, in game one of the NBA finals, he seemed to forget what the score was and did not know that it was a tie game, thought the Cavs were winning. And so with a few seconds left in regulation, he got the ball, he dribbled out instead of going to the basket and actually trying to put the Cavs ahead. And they ended up going to overtime and losing to the Warriors. And everyone has seen the gifs and the memes of LeBron being just aghast at what happened here. So I saw some discussion in the Facebook group and elsewhere about what the best baseball equivalent of what J.R. Smith did is.

So I thought I'd run through a few possibilities here. People were suggesting a lot of just notorious mistakes and errors, like the Fred Snodgrass dropped fly ball in the 1912 World Series or the Mickey Owen dropped third strike. There are lots in that genre, but that's different. That's an actual error that is not just a mental mistake and losing track of the score. I guess we've got a recent example. There was the Joe Girardi not challenging the hit by pitch in the division series last year, which was pretty bad. Yankees came back and won the series, of course, but he didn't have a great explanation for that. Some people cited the occasional forgetting of the number of outs where an outfielder will just throw the ball into the stands because he thinks the inning is over. There is, of course, the famous Larry Walker example of that, but that was like an April 1994 game. Not only was it not in the World Series, there was no World Series that year. Ultimately,

didn't really matter. It wasn't all that consequential. Obviously, you've got Merkel's boner. I guess Merkel's boner is the best candidate here. We still don't know exactly what Merkel did or didn't do there. So I'm still to remember, it was what, 98 ALCS game two, and Enrique Wilson just scored from first. He was on the Indians at the time because Chuck Knobloch was arguing the call, and he was just standing there as Enrique Wilson was circling the bases and scored, and everyone was yelling at Knobloch to throw the ball. Fryman squares to Bunn and gets it down nicely. Martinez with the flip to first. Safe. Now the Yankees are going to contend

as the ball rolls away and Wilson's being waved home. He stumbles. They may have a play on him. He slides in safely all the way to third. Goes Freiman. The Yankees are going to contend that Freiman was in the baseline or out of the baseline and got in the way of the throw.

But that was a very poor play to let that ball roll down there while you wait for an umpire to make a decision. You have to go after the ball. You can't let the ball roll 10 feet down the right field line and no one go pick it up. The Yankees were so concerned with disputing the play that nobody pounced on the ball. Exactly. I think that might be the best comp here. And there is a Cleveland connection, at least.

That's a possibility. A couple of people mentioned Manny Ramirez's relay throw cutoff of Johnny Damon, where Johnny Damon was trying to throw the ball in and Manny cut off the throw for no reason. But that was obviously pretty inconsequential. And then there's the Lonnie Smith in the 91 World Series with the base running mistake, of course, in game seven. But that was a case where he kind of got deked probably, which is not quite the J.R. Smith case. I don't think anyone was deking Smith. He was just deking himself. And then lastly, the people playing out of position kind of case. So Pete Cosma in the famous wildcard game in 2012, that infield fly rule thing in part happened because Cosma signaled that he was going to get to that ball and he put his hands up.

And so the umpire called infield fly and then Cosma did not get to that ball. That's kind of a mental mistake, I guess. And then there's the Nelson Cruz in the 2011 World Series, where he kind of cost the Rangers the game because he was not playing no doubles defense. He was playing too shallow. And David Freeze had the ball go over his head, and that was that. So those are the best candidates I have. I kind of like Knobloch as the best comp for J.R. Smith. Yeah, you have established that you have a far superior memory for major events than I do. I remember nothing that's before in the last few days. I didn't remember all of these or they didn't all come to my mind. Well, you might still be able to visualize them. And they're basically just gone from my own little mental projector. I was thinking, of course, the Sakes are in no way similar. But, of course, just the other day, the Phillies beat the Dodgers by what?

A run on a run where Michaelael franco did not touch home plate and the dodgers neglected to challenge so that's bad i don't know what the ultimate hypothetical uh comparison would be but probably if you're in like the ninth inning and you catch there's a protecting a one run lead and you catch what you think is the third out and then you just like throw the ball away or keep it in your glove or something but the tying run scores from third base on a sacrifice fly because you didn't realize that there was another out to go something like that might work but otherwise i don't know what i one of the things i like about sports boners as long as we're using the word is that they are all sort of specific to the individual sport there is no clear

comparison across across sides. You do every so often. I always love when you see the basketball highlights of the guy who's just chewing out the ref as the other team goes on a fast break the other direction. You don't really see that in so many other sports, but it's a wonderful one. And at least that one can happen

in all of the major sports if you want to do it. Okay. And lastly, I want to put in a quick plug for Saber Seminar just because it's been making the rounds on Twitter in the last day or so. Saber Seminar, of course, is my favorite, I think, annual baseball analytics event. Dan Brooks and others organize it every year. It's in Boston. It's in August. It's for a good cause. The proceeds go to charity. And this year, it's August 4th and 5th, I believe, in Boston. And it's just always great. It's just a litany of really insightful and smart speakers this year. They're going to have a panel, people who are on the MLB committee to determine what's going on with the ball. They'll be talking, lots of great speakers, lots of teams and representatives, and they speak a bit. Just it's the best place really to catch up on the latest research in baseball and to meet people in this community.

So just go if you can. It's SaberSeminar.com. You will see links there to get tickets and I highly recommend it. Unfortunately, I cannot make it this year. I have a conflict. I'm going to the Traveler's Rest Music Festival to see Friend of the Podcast, Ben Gibbard, and many other artists and musicians that I like a lot. It's unfortunately on the same day, and I have a vacation planned with my wife and brother and sister-in-law, and I'm really mad that it's the same weekend because I really want to do both

of those things. But go in my stead. Everyone go to Saber Seminar and you have an event that you've been working on that you also just announced that is also in August. Do you want to mention that? Oh yeah, sure. So for the second year in a row, last year, are we using friend of the pod? That feels like that's probably trademarked. Anyway, a friend of us who are responsible for this podcast, Meg Rowley and I, and the Seattle Mariners worked together to put together a sort of celebrating women in baseball night at Safeco Field last August, which was an event that featured a Q&A and a panel of women who work in or around the industry. And so the event was great. It served its purpose. And we were all very excited to put our heads together and get to work on how to make the second year even better or even just to have a second year of it. get to work on how to make the second year even better or even just to have a second year of it so this august 21st it's a tuesday deal with it go the mariners are playing the astros so you get to see the best team in baseball play against the astros and you will uh it's going to be a bigger

event it's not going to so last year what happened is the the whole panel and q a was held in a part of the ballpark that was just beyond the approximately center field maybe left center field fence which is a great place to have a view of pre-game batting practice but which is a terrible place to have panelists not looking in the direction of said pre-game batting practice so we came close to a few people getting drilled in the skull so that's not going to happen again thankfully they were able to move the event to a different space where people are less in danger for their lives and their well-being also an area that will be accommodating for more people to attend so look into it it is not just for professional networking or development it is for anyone who

is interested in hearing women who have very interesting jobs in the sport so we will meg will be moderating the panel again. I will be there in the background because this is not an event for me. This is an event for other people. And it is going to be great. So go. Tickets are available somewhere on mariners.nembleby.com. I'm not going to say the link out loud because you can't click something that I say.

Yesterday, we were going to the gym. My fiance and I were going to the gym. And on the sign of a door next to the room that we were going into there was uh it was just a flyer for this office that said like hey we're not here right now but go to these links and uh and you can get our information and one of them it was like a google link but it was one of those links that takes up like four lines when you see it and it's and it's just a printout like you can't press this who's going to type in that link so it was i don't know who that was for yeah all right well

now the much anticipated interview begins this podcast is peaking we are talking to john jay so for those of you who haven't been with us for a while jay so has become kind of a folk hero on this podcast because of some quotes that he has had in the last couple of years where he said, such is this game and such is life. That has kind of become one of our mantras. And he also said last year when he was intending to retire, he said, I have a sailboat, so I just want to sail away. And that is not how the typical player goes out. So we're going to talk to him now about his unique attitude and how that has gelled with other players and kind of a whole career

retrospective and his travels and adventures since he got out of baseball so without much further ado we will get to John Jaso in just a moment John sees his laws are broken. Trees drowning where they breathe. Now John used to be a mellow man. Drinking chai and smoking weed. Ain't no one in the county ever seen what he's seen. John Oates. So we are joined now by the man, the myth, the legend, former Tampa Bay Ray, Pittsburgh

Pirate, Oakland Athletic, Seattle Mariner, and boat captain John Jaso. Hey, John, how are you? Hey, I'm doing all right. So I guess we should start with the most recent time you came to our attention, which was just last week when you were at the Trop and you had a little adventure getting down to the field and there was an usher who didn't buy that you were a the chop and you had a little adventure getting down to the field and there was an usher who didn't buy that you were a former major league baseball player as far as i can see can you uh describe what went down there yeah i tried pulling every card i had out and uh she

wasn't taking any of them it was a pretty funny experience um kind of glad it was caught on camera and so basically what i was doing i hadn't gone to to a Rays game or any big league game since I stopped playing ball. But I went that day, was going to go say hi to some coaches and guys that I've just known for years playing the game, like 15 years. You know, this guy I was going to go talk to, he was my coach when I was a catcher in A ball. Yeah. And so I was going down the aisle and the lady stopped me and said do you have a ticket right away and I said no ma'am I'm just going down there to go talk to my coach I haven't seen him in a while and it would just be really cool to say hi to him

and uh and he would get a kick out of it and she's like but you said you didn't have a ticket I'm like no I don't have a ticket lady but are like, no, I don't have a ticket, lady, but I used to play here. And she's like, just come with me. And the funny thing about it was I followed her back up the stairs. I had no idea where we were going. And then she pointed to a seat and said, go ahead and sit right there.

And I sat down. I'm like, and then it was like, I'm doing everything that this lady tells me to do. And I had to like save a little bit of my dignity. I think I got up and told her I was grabbing a beer and went and grabbed a beer and kind of made my way down there after after the inning and um it was great because the coach I was trying to say hi to he was mic'd up that game that's why they got all the all the great audio of right of him when he

went back to the dugout and everything and I saw saw him a couple nights after, you know, we met up and said hi and everything. And he was telling me, like, that was just so great because it was just such good stuff for being mic'd up. You guys keep kicking me out of here. I don't blame him. Look at you. I wouldn't blame him. Jace was over there on the third base side with his dreadlocks and a tie-dye shirt with no sleeves.

He said the ushers were trying to kick him out. I said, I don't blame John Jason. There he is. Well, a lot going on on the field and a side light. In the stands, John Jason trying to talk his way past that fine lady right there she wouldn't let him yeah she's you talk about blocking the plate she's doing it right there one of the uh one of the things you said when you talked about your soft retirement i guess last october before it was official is that you wanted to live anonymously and i guess

an usher turning you around at a baseball stadium not as a baseball player or a recent baseball player wouldn't qualify so that's uh that's one mission accomplished this is exactly what i wanted you uh you also talked about you wanted to spend a lot of the off season in fact much of the rest of your life living on your boat traveling and uh of course, helping out with the disaster in Puerto Rico. So, you know, it's been, what, eight months since October, since you last played a Major League Baseball game. So of those months, how many of those months have been spent on or, I guess, within visual sight of your boat? Yeah, not much. I do have like some other things going on that I need to take care of and kind of wrap up

before I get going, just so I don't have that, like, like sitting there in the back of my mind the whole time I'm out there on the boat. But that goal is still there. And it's still what I'm reaching for. And it is very close to happening now. You know, hurricane season just decided to show up like super fast this year. And so we'll see how things go. But yeah, my goal is to definitely go out there and start in the top of the Bahamas and work my way down to, to like Puerto Rico and hang out in Puerto Rico for a while. And just like,

see if like my time could be of use there for, for the people. And I know, I know they're still trying to get things back on track with a lot of the other islands that are down there. And I think it would just be like a really, I don't know, just something for me to, uh, to kind of do something or humanity, you know, outside of just running around on a, on a baseball field and, and, uh, hearing people cheer or boo, whatever it is. Um, but yeah, but that's, that is something that I

definitely want to do. And, but like I said, I'm still wrapping some things up here at home first before I can get going. But every time I'm on that sailboat, oh my gosh, it's such a great feeling. I've already, I've spent a lot of time putting in a water maker, putting in solar panels. The next thing is hooking up the wind generator and everything. And I'm just trying to do as much of that stuff on my own. So kind of know how everything is wired and put together. Then you'll be self-sufficient. You'll never need to come back to land or at least not here.

Yeah. Yeah. Just being really off the grid. Yeah. How did sailing become an interest with you? When did that happen? And when did you get the boat? Well,

I think it, I think it really became an interest to me a couple of years ago when I went to a boat show down here in St. Pete. But before that, I used, I was always on the water here. Um,

uh, probably owned a boat for the last 10 years. And even just going out by myself. I mean, I could be out there, whatever it is, 30 miles by myself with a, you know, with a line in the water, not even catching anything. And I love it. And there's like no place I'd rather be, but right there. So I've always been kind of in love with being on the water and being on the ocean.

And then when I went to this boat show and I saw these sailboats, it just like, it just hit me and I'm like, this is what I want and everything. So I spent a lot of time, like the last couple of years that I spent a lot of time reading up on sailing and just kind of trying to learn as much as I could. I took some sailing lessons and everything. So yeah, whenever that, whenever that time is right, I'm ready to, I'm ready to go and I'm really looking forward to it. Given the fact that you effectively retired last October, you were of course coming off a down season by your own standards, but you did have the advantage of getting to bypass an off season in which players who had your profile had all kinds of trouble finding work. But how

difficult was it for you to come to grips with the idea of retiring when you did? And obviously, you were in the major leagues for a number of seasons, more or less a decade. And if you could, in any detail, could you relay how your sort of grappling process with that compared to that of some former teammates? Because it seems like we've seen a number of players who had their career peaks, and they were good in the major leagues. And then it took them a long time to come to terms with the fact that their playing days were over. At least the way that you've had it portrayed in the media, it seemed like it came pretty easily to you. Yeah, I know what you mean. And I think personality has a lot to do with it. I think that when people

don't have balance in their lives, it becomes harder to deal with things that come to an end. And that balance is really important. You know, I think I'm a different cat when it comes to playing the game or playing any sport in general. And a lot of it, and I think it, I don't know, it didn't really like mesh well with some players that I did play with because I didn't really have this real like emotion, this real passion going while I played the game I had fun and I never took it for granted I loved where I was at but I never got too high on it and I think that helped when when it was time for to call it quits you know and for it to to be an end because

I don't like even if I didn't call it quits, I probably wouldn't have gotten the job. I probably would have had to like start off in a minor league somewhere or something like that, just because of how the free agency market is going nowadays. And it wasn't, it wasn't like that creative a year for me anyway. But so I don't know. I think when I'm dealing with it very well, because there are these other things that I want to do in life that I see opening for me. And also like, I'm, I also try to be good with just enough, you know, like I don't need, I don't need excessive amounts. Like I don't need to play, um, for 15 years to have said, like, to be like totally fulfilled in something like baseball so I'm good with I'm good with where with where I'm at and I feel really blessed to have done what what I did

and also also I think a lot of a lot of things that help is remembering all the guys that I played with that did love playing the game so much that didn't make it as far as I did. And so if I compare what I've accomplished and what was given to me in baseball to that, I really do feel very good about how much was given to me in the game. Yeah, it's that attitude, I think, that initially brought you up in the podcast because you had a couple of quotes last year. There was one last April when I think the Pirates had been either sweeping or getting swept in every series. And someone reported that you said, it's bizarre, such is this game and such is life. And I guess that kind of caught on maybe because I know that Trevor Williams last October tweeted, baseball is weird, such is life, and attributed it to John Socrates' JSO.

So I guess, yeah, so I don't know if that's kind of, I guess the more laid back or philosophical attitude that we're talking about here, that not that you wanted to lose or didn't want to win, but there's an element, I guess, of it's just baseball. It's part of life and, you know, we'll kind of take it as it comes that maybe doesn't seem to be how many major leaguers are wired yeah and and it's just hard because i

think you never don't want to let's see how am i gonna how am i gonna say this but you always want to be yourself and you never want to be somebody that you're not so i think in this game a lot like you know there's there's all these like very egotistical things that come out like about like oh yeah i'll try to i'm gonna try my best and then somebody will say try i can get anybody to try you know and it's like well dude you know what i mean like we don't have to go with that and like start measuring things like you know what i mean i'm gonna i'm gonna give it my best you know and and there is there is a lot of that where where people are they're trying to make you be something else you know like not everybody's as intense as pete rose and maybe his intensity

made him as good as he was but i think he was just always himself whether that was a good thing or a bad thing that's up for debate and I don't think either one is right or either one is wrong it's just who you are and like I don't think Lou Gehrig was like as of an intense player as Pete Rose but would anybody try to change Lou Gehrig's personality? No, I don't think so. You know, so I think when those are the things that like I struggled with in baseball a lot was that big ego. And I know the desire to win and all that. And I love the feeling of winning and everything.

But I also do understand the importance of losing as well. But I also do understand the importance of losing as well. How did you interact with the real red-ass type, you know, clubhouse police type of player who maybe was more intense than you were? And I would imagine there must have been some communication issues from time to time. Would you just kind of not associate with that person or just be in your own world and they're in their own world? Or did it at times get heated? Were there tense times? Yeah, I, there was, I'm not going to lie.

There definitely was. And, and it did some of that stuff. Like that was, that's more of the ego stuff coming in because I am like, I am the way that I am. And I dress the way that I dress. Like you saw, like we were talking about earlier, the video just a couple of days ago. And that's how I dress. That's how I go through life. And I, and I'm super comfortable like that. If I did anything else,

I wouldn't be happy. And I'd be trying to do something that is not really me. It's not really my personality. And I think some of that, I mean, I grew up in Hippieville in Northern California, so that's just what I'm comfortable with. And I think some of that just doesn't mesh well when you're in a place with egos, with big paychecks, with, you know, diamond studded things like ornaments that people wear daily. just doesn't it just doesn't really like blend in and I think I think it almost threatens those other people those other people that do wear all these things because because there were multiple times when people would come up to me and and address the way that I am like almost beach bummy and I was younger at the time so I

never really like stood up for myself because I never wanted to cause drama inside of inside of a club inside a clubhouse but later on as um as I did get a few years under my belt and a little bit more um status I did stick up for myself a little bit here and there and it was always weird to me because I never went up to these people and asked them, why do you need to adorn yourself with, with these things? Why do you need to like, wear a $400 pair of shoes? I'm pretty sure they're going to get you to wear like the shoes that this guy's wearing would get you, you know? So I, I never approached them about that. Why would they approach me about this? And I never approached them about that. Why would they

approach me about this? And I just kind of figured out like, okay, they just feel kind of threatened by that because they think they need to be like this and everybody else needs to be like this because they're playing in the big league. But if you think about it, like what if you were working a job, like as a school teacher back at home, wherever you're from? Would you still be wanting to wear $400 shoes? Would you still be wanting to have diamonds on you and everything? No. You're trying to be somebody else right now.

And it's threatening because here I am just being myself. And I'm totally comfortable walking around other people who are trying to be something else. And it's threatening because here I am just being myself and I'm totally comfortable walking around other people who are trying to be something else. And it's threatening. It's threatening to you. And you can't just let it be. You have to say something. So, like I said, like after a while, after a couple of years, I did stand up for myself and just start telling people like back off and just let me be me. Because if I'm not, then I'm not going to be happy and there were teams that were both ways there were teams that were like so cool and and um and none of that was ever an issue and there were other teams where that was a reoccurring issue so I don't know it was tough sometimes when when that would happen but I did know to make it a point because after after I did get a lot of years in the big leagues to make sure that

other guys wouldn't mess with younger dudes and try to tell them like this is how you need to act and this is how you need to be i made sure to step in and stick up for the kid that was getting like maybe attacked or whatever and like not attacked but you know just told to be something else to stick up for for him because him because I knew what it was like. And actually, I had somebody stick up for me in the past. I can't, I mean, I'm telling you stories and I don't want to say any names, but I've had somebody stick up for me in the past

and I know how good that felt when a veteran guy stuck up for me. Yeah. And you mentioned being yourself. I mean, when you go to your baseball reference page, you can click on the headshots and it shows one old headshot from when you were with the Rays right next to a headshot when you're with the Pirates and it looks like two different people. So, I mean, at what point

did you feel comfortable enough either with yourself or within baseball or your status or whatever it was to say, yeah, I'm just going to look like I want to look and I'm going to wear the dreads and this is, this is me deal with it. Right. I don't know. I mean, Oh, I never really even thought about that. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I got, I've always wanted dreads. I've always wanted dreads. I think I always had like the shaved head because it was just really easy to, to deal with and to maintain, but I've always wanted dreads. And, and then I started growing my hair out shaggy when, when I went to Seattle and then, um, you know, all the way through Oakland,

it was shaggy. And then I got to, I got back here to the Rays. And there's a local place here in St. Pete that did dreadlocks and just saw that and was like, you know what, it's time to do this. And I, and when he got it done and it's so awkward in the beginning to have dreadlocks, I mean, they do not look good. But now I think, I think that my dreadlocks have matured and everything. Now I love them and, and I don't want them to go anywhere and they've just become part of me. So I think this is like who I am for right now, you know, and who knows, like 10 years down the road, five years

down the road, I could be could be something else. Like, I think we're always changing. But, you know, I think if you don't embrace that change, then you aren't really being true to yourself. And things are just going to happen naturally to to you so when you when you're on the outside like we are it's one of the challenges to is to not try to profile the players that you see in the media or on television but i think after talking to you and seeing some clips of you i mean you're from california you went to high school in humboldt county for god's sake you look how you look you talk how you look look. I think that we can arrive at a certain profile. And this is not obviously a political podcast, nor is it going to become a political podcast at any point. But you have had two years in the major leagues during what's

what we could call a more agitated time in American existence. And it's easy for us out here to work or exist in our bubbles. But when you're on a baseball team, it's just a collection of the most talented people in an organization. And they all have very different beliefs. So in your experience these last couple of years, how did the teams you were on help to sort of walk around this, confront it? walk around this confronted or was it just something that was swept under the rug because I I think we all have a general understanding that a lot of baseball players have certain beliefs that are not uncommon for people in that salary level but uh you you would be an exception to that yeah and and a clubhouse I mean you're there's so much downtime and everything that you are like sitting there talking and yeah you're These last couple of years have been pretty heated as far as, you know, opinions flying

around and different views on things. I think like the biggest thing as far as what we continue to miss as a society is understanding and that like having compassion for other people and allowing them to have their views and just have their own views. It doesn't mean anything. I know there's some issues out there that do feel like they need to be addressed, definitely. And I would say if you see a species go extinct, that's a problem. And that's almost like a no brainer,

but when it comes to other issues and money is just such a, that's such a tough one that can bring out some bad things in people. And I think knowing what is like, what is enough, like what I was talking about with baseball earlier, I think, uh, I think you can take throughout a lot of things in life is just knowing what's enough and being happy with that and counting anything else as a blessing. Something you don't necessarily need, but it's just a blessing. And just really, like, honestly, just like talking to yourself about it like what is enough and I think if more people talk to themselves instead of like instead of trying to project onto other people I think they would understand a lot more instead of like thinking about wanting something just like understanding what is enough and I think that I don't know I think if people if more people thought that way that uh things would start going in a better direction. And yeah, it definitely didn't make for some good clubhouse talk

and everything like that. But baseball always seemed to stay out of that light, which is a really interesting thing and probably a whole other discussion. Yeah, you're just around the guys so often, I guess. Yeah, it's in the clubhouse and everything. But baseball is more of a, I guess, the sanctity of it never really wants to be

tarnished, and just people keep it as a game. I don't want to oversimplify. Of course, you played the game with a passion. It's not as if you were just a passive observer of your entire career, but we're talking about maybe you didn't have that, I don't know what to call it, psychotic drive to be

the greatest baseball player in the world. Still, you didn't get a lot of collegiate or major league attention out of high school. You were drafted in the 12th round by what was then a bad team. And it took you about seven years to actually make it to the major leagues, even though you continued to hit well throughout the minors, at least to my own eyes. So how do you reconcile your own sort of outlook on your career and how passionate you might have been in the day to day basis with how much work it actually took for you to get even to where you eventually did and how long it took? I think one thing that I had growing up was was a good work ethic that was, you know, instilled by my parents, and also to keep a level head,

like never, I was never allowed to think I was better than anybody else growing up. I was never allowed to, I was never pampered and really like held on a pedestal. I did like a lot of really cool things. I'm growing up like with little league and like when I was in high school baseball and everything where where my head could have totally gotten inflated and I think a lot of that upbringing really helped with the success I had because you know looking back at it now when I was coming through the minors I really didn't think I was going to make it to the next level I was just there like playing and having a good time with my friends. And baseball becomes really, really hard if it's not fun. It is a really hard game to play. But when it's fun, it is an incredible game to play.

You can't wait to play it. And I think that fun was very, very important to my success. And also me being a catcher, just really wanting to see other people on the team do well, especially pitchers. More than anything else, I wanted our pitchers to do really well. But I think that fun part of the game couldn't be there, really, if your mind was too attached on the future and what you expected out of the future. Like if you're in double A or high A, like wanting to be in triple A the next year. And then all of a sudden those

expectations of the future, you're putting so much pressure on yourself and building so much anxiety around what is going on in that day, in that moment, because that's the only thing that's really real. You don't know what's going to happen in the future but it starts creating just a really bad atmosphere for yourself in the game and honestly if you're if you wear your emotions on your sleeve you're making it a bad a bad environment for your teammates as well but I honestly never thought I would be at the next level it just ended up being there and there there is one really great story, which I love when I faltered on what I, um, what I just said in double a, I had the best year of my, of my life. And I think I hit three 16 caught the entire year. We won the double a championship that year,

um, with me behind the plate and had RBIs, homers, everything. It was just like such a great year. And I got put on the 40-man that year. And I'm like, for sure, I'm going to AAA the next year. Well, so I was in Bigwood camp, got sent down, knew that was happening, and then played all spring training on the AAA roster. The very last day, I go in there, and this is when we're about to break for the season, go in there.

My name isn't on the AAA roster, and I was just thinking, no way. And I go to the AA roster to look, and there's my name going back to AA. And I just tore it up in spring training as well. And our catching coordinator was right there, and he grabbed me immediately because he knew I was about to to explode and took me into the minor league coordinator's office and this was Mitch Lukavich at the time with the with the Rays and I go in there and I am just heated my blood is boiling and Mitch he tells me what's going on we want you to catch games and and all this stuff and like I'm not hearing anything I'm pretty much just taking it all as just smoke and in my head it's just like on fire right now and he said um you know is there anything that you would like to say he said go ahead and say anything you want and I just I just

went off the handle I let him have it and uh and the coaches I think I pointed that like each person in the room and just went around the room and just aired them out, you know, and he knew, he knew it had to happen. And this is like, I have so much respect for this man because of, because of this moment. And he sat there calmly and took it from me and knew and knew what I had put in to, to that year and what it meant to me. And said he he just said calmly like john you're an incredible player please please don't let this ruin your career i want to see you in the big leagues and and i went back to double a and i was bitter for you know first month or

whatever and um it was great because neil allen the uh the pitching coach for, I think he still works for him, he was there, and he helped me out a lot through that. And he said, don't worry about that, just keep going, whatever, and just play for today. And so I ended up turning things around, and basically I already made this a super long story, but I ended up in the big leagues going to the World Series with the Rays later on that year. So, you know, in my head, I was caught up with where I thought I should be at and everything.

And it wasn't until I was really calmed down with the help of Neil Allen to just be where I was and just enjoy it that I really had success. And I carried that throughout the rest of my career. You know, I was almost taken off the 40 man. I knew it. I knew it was happening. I didn't care. I didn't care. They could do whatever they wanted. I was just going to be there. When I went to Seattle, got traded to Seattle, I was a third string catcher and I was listening to people complain about not having playing time to me. And I'm sitting there telling them, yo, you're talking to the third string catcher right now. I don't want to be the third string catcher, but I am, and I'm just going to enjoy it.

I'm going to enjoy catching these bullpens, chilling with the guys, hitting some BP, and just getting in whenever I can. And later on that year, I had one of the best years of my big league careers. You know, and it was, I think that mindset always helped me not expecting anything and just being happy where I was. And, you know, I think that's what that is. Sorry about the long story, but with, uh, with regard to being a catcher and having so much delight in watching your,

your teammates succeed, especially the pitchers. One of my own professional highlights was watching Felix Hernandez through a perfect game game and I was just a guy watching on television. You were the one who had the best view of Felix's perfect game that he was throwing. So this is your opportunity to say from zero to 100%,

how much of the credit do you take for that game? I'll take like 1% of the credit just because I think I blocked a couple balls. But he was incredible. I've never, I mean, actually his stuff was pretty good for like a couple balls but he was incredible I've never I mean actually his stuff was pretty good for like a couple months there and it seemed like it was just a matter of time because I remember

we went to Yankee Stadium and he threw a one hitter there and that was when the Yankees lineup was stacked but that was an amazing moment that was probably the highlight of my big league career was that was that game and being a part of that and just seeing like you know how much this guy means to that city and and um it was a day game during the week there wasn't really anybody there and by the seventh inning the whole stadium was packed i think everybody was calling off work and showing up and it was just so incredible i mean i think we might have won like we probably won like 50 games that year. No, but it was such an amazing season. That guy was such a great, great teammate, great pitcher.

I mean, he deserved that perfect game more than anybody I've worked with. And that was just an amazing moment. I feel super blessed to have been part of it. But his stuff was nasty. It was nasty. The distance that people were missing his pitches by was just like, oh my God, this is something special today. Yeah. Is it like to go from that to a regular major league pitcher? I mean, is it more fun to catch someone like that or is it more difficult

to catch someone like that? Cause you're trying to catch up to his stuff, which is it's difficult to anticipate. But, you know, presumably he's putting it where he wants to put it. And then you go to the fifth starter or whatever. And his stuff is comparatively pedestrian. Is it like easier and or less exciting for you as a catcher? Well, I think when you have a day like that as a catcher, you really cherish those days because there are those other days when the starting pitcher cannot find the strike zone is all over the place biking balls I mean you just have such bad days behind the plate so when you do get a day like that it's

it's an incredible feeling it's so nice and uh where it feels like a video game or something like that but but yeah catching is always like one of those like love hate positions now that i've played other places on the field like right field and first base when you got to first base and you're pretty much getting the same thing every game right but as a catcher it is something different every day you're dealing with different personalities what they're what they're deciding to bring that day you know because i mean even like with the starting pitcher like it could be their slider that was on their last start, and then they can't find the slider this next start. And so you learn to cherish those those days. And actually, I had I had another game kind of not a perfect game, but it was an incredible game. It was actually Kevin Millwood in Colorado. And

I was down there warming him up in the bullpen. And I mean, he, he probably threw eight pitches in the bullpen. Couldn't find a strike zone. I don't think I, I don't think my arm was bent catching a ball the entire time. It was fully extended out there, like ripping my glove off the hand and he couldn't get anywhere near the plate. And I throw the ball back, back to him and he catches it. And he's like looking at me for like three seconds and he's like come on let's go and he just walked into

the field like okay he didn't even throw like an off-speed pitch he was just all over the place and I was like you good man he's like he's like don't even worry about it it'll be fine here we go out there and he throws a one hitter he had a no hitter going all the way until the eighth inning and a guy hit a little dribbler up the middle. And we get back in the dugout, and I plop down next to him. I was like, damn, man, we almost had it. He was like, had what? I was like, he hit a no-hitter. And Kevin Millwood, he's the man.

He's like, oh, man, I already got me a couple of those. Don't even worry about it. Okay. All right. Yeah. The other, I mean, thing that you have to deal with when you are a catcher, obviously, is getting drilled constantly. And this is something that you encountered much more often than you would have liked and had difficulty coming back from concussions and the head injuries. Are there any after effects of that even today?

Do you feel completely recovered from that were you able to i guess you know how how quickly did you feel like you came all the way back i didn't come back as quickly as i wanted to let's see i had two big concussions when i was with oakland the first one i came back from pretty quickly like by the next spring training like nothing was wrong but this after I got the second one when I was with Oakland it got a lot tougher and that was 2014 I think and right now I don't I don't feel anything I don't feel anything residual from it but I mean it was tough like going out on field. And when the seats would fill up and things would get really busy, I would start to get a little, like, nauseous. And I was just standing there, almost like I was starting to get car sick or something like that.

And it was because of all the movement and just, I don't know, the stimuli, I guess. But now I'm good. And I don't know, like, if something happened again. Because I was hit in the head last year by a guy that was throwing really hard. And I was woozy for about three days after that. And it didn't hit me. And like it like kind of glanced my helmet and I was woozy for like three days. And that kind of actually that moment kind of gave me another reason to kind of walk from the game.

Because I don't know, I just when i had those concussions it was bad like i wasn't myself and and um it was just uh one of those scary things where you're kind of sitting there at night and you're just like almost like crying to yourself wondering if you're ever going to be like the same again like you know so like it's definitely not something to mess around with and it was like another reason to kind of walk from the game but after having those concussions and getting the opportunity from the race to go those concussions and getting the opportunity from the Rays to go DH and getting the opportunity from the Pirates to play first base I mean it's another one of those things where you look back and you just feel like incredibly blessed and another reason why I didn't really want to take anything for granted

for granted while I was playing the game and to squeeze everything I could out of it while I was while I was there. You've spoken a little bit before about how at least before you had concussion problems, you figured you'd have a concussion and the treatment is you sit in a dark room. But you learned, at least through your own experiences, that you can sort of build up a tolerance to some issues that might cause you symptoms, migraines specifically. So can you speak a little bit in some detail about what you learned about the the actual treatment process that is available for someone who's experiencing a pretty bad concussion yeah so i guess the way that i understood it was that concussions i mean your

brain has all these different departments that control different uh functions in your body right like sight or hearing or feel and everything so it kind of depends on a lot on what part of the brain was really affected. And so mine was vestibular. So a lot of it was like visual. I guess when, when the balls were hitting me in the, in the face mask, my brain was kind of sloshing against the back of my skull in a sense, which I think is the way they mostly happen. And so those neurons in the back of my brain were the ones that are really getting stretched out and, and, uh, chemical imbalance was happening. So a lot of it was visual stimuli and that's where I noticed I was mostly affected when I was walking through my daily life. And I guess what we kind of did with the, with the

doctor making Collins, he's up in, up in Pittsburgh and, uh, he was great, uh, helped me through this big time and, and, uh, a lot of thanks to this guy, but he kind of showed me that everybody has like this, this threshold, right? Like where the migraine would, would come in and, and I stress builds up to that threshold. If it doesn't reach it, you can relax and it'll go back down. That stress will go back down and you won't get a migraine. But once that stress and the stimuli go over that threshold, now you're in a migraine, you're not getting out of it until your body wants to get out of it, which is probably after like you take a nap or wake up in the morning,

right? So what we started doing was to put kind of pressure on that threshold a little bit and kind of like tiptoe up to it, but not cross it to try and keep pushing it up, almost like working out in the gym or something. You wouldn't go in there and grab like super heavy weights and try and do a rep or else you might tear a muscle or something like that. But you want to do reps to where you're, where to that point and then putting it on a rack and then coming back in in another couple of days and doing some more and getting to that point. And eventually you start getting stronger and stronger

and pushing that limit further and further up to where you're walking through life and everything is fine and your body has this chance to level out that chemical balance inside of your brain. And it's tough because it's not like a broken bone or a bruise or something where you can just point and be like, see, that's where it is. It's kind of one of those things where it's like a communicative kind of thing. And he had these tests that he was doing with my eyesight. And he was like just telling me how messed up I was at that moment.

Like, yeah, like my eyes would cross and do all kinds of weird stuff. So, I mean, he could see what was going on without me telling him. But a lot of the rehab stuff was a lot of like communication, you know. It wasn't something that would show up on like an x-ray or something like that. But that's generally what we did. So I had one more pure baseball question for you. I was listening to Carlos Pena the other day on Jonah Carey's podcast talking about the 2008 Rays. And Jonah was saying that every time he talks to someone who played on that team, they say it was the best team they ever played for and the best baseball experience they ever had.

And of course, you were just a September call up for that team. That was your first season in the majors. But did you get a sense of that atmosphere and that attitude? Did you feel it too with Joe Maddon in the clubhouse, with these guys who had been playing for a terrible team that suddenly became maybe the best team in baseball, went all the way to the World Series? What was the atmosphere like around that clubhouse? Yeah, it was amazing. That was incredible. That was my first time being in the big leagues. And it was the first time the Rays went to the World Series.

And there was just so much amazing things going on. The stadium was packed. Shoot, we would go out at night and everybody would be so happy to see us out. Places and everything. I can't complain about that. That was a lot of fun. But yeah, I mean, there was just so much energy there and all the players seemed like they were having just great, great season. And like you said, Joe Maddon, I mean, he was amazing. He played an incredible role with that. And one awesome thing about him is he has that knack

of knowing players and knowing a clubhouse and knowing that balance between where he intervenes and where the players need to take care of this, sort of. He does have that knack, and that creates just a very, I would say, easy atmosphere to win in. So it was a great time. I mean, shoot, the the bus rides the plane flights everything was just was just a great time all of us getting along like there was no there's no bad blood in the clubhouse at all and i mean i mean i was i was just a rookie so i was

kind of quiet in the corner unless they called me up in front on the bus to sing in front of everybody. Then I had to talk, but it was a fun time. I can't believe I got to be part of it. Seattle experience aside, you played for competitive teams in Tampa Bay, Oakland, and Pittsburgh. I think this offseason, given the way that the market behaved in general, there is more attention paid than ever on how certain teams just don't seem to necessarily invest as much as they could or should. And Tampa Bay, Oakland and Pittsburgh are three teams that commonly come up in this conversation of teams that even when they're competitive, don't seem to necessarily put as much money into the roster as a fan might prefer them to. Now, I'm not asking for your opinion on whether or not this is right or wrong, but when you were playing for those teams, did you have any sort of awareness or thoughts on how the teams should be operating? Or was it just more a matter of this is my job and this team,

however it's built, has to be as good as it can be? Yeah, I don't know. That's the part that that really is confusing and you kind of learn that as you as you're older and progress in a game that like when you think you know what is going to happen you're proven completely wrong like the team is going to do what they do and all that stuff is talked about behind closed doors and every team seems to have a different philosophy i think like you know the biggest thing in the game is it's a business you know so it's all about uh making money for certain people and everything like that and and so it's going to be a run as such but uh i don't know they were they were all different and i really never i don't know like like when things would happen um like trades would happen towards the end of the year and everything i I never really looked into it that much.

I was always just sad to see players go that I was playing with throughout the year, you know, like we lost Melanson a couple of years ago towards the end of the season. And it was just like sad to see him go, like not finish out the season with us and everything. But, you know, teams are going to do what they need to do and you just don don't worry about it because you know it's part of the game, and so you just don't really pay any mind to it.

But I don't know. Like, there is no secret formula to winning in baseball, and I love that about the game. And I feel like in football, you're going to get, like, one of the same three quarterbacks in a Super Bowl every year, right? In basketball, you're going to get, like, three of the same guards or forwards in the NBA Finals every year. But baseball, it could be anybody.

Who the hell knows? And I love that about the game. And so, I don't know. When teams do crazy things, it's just, it's almost like you laugh a little bit because you think that, like, it seems like they think that they know what they need to do to win. And you're like, you know, there's always more than one way to do that. And it's been proven over and over and over, over, like, you know, 150 years of this game being played. And so, yeah, you just don't let it, I don't know, you just don't let it get in your head at all.

Because everybody is just a trading asset, like just a little trading piece, you know. So I've only got two more. The last one's going to be really quick. But one, when you're watching a baseball team as a fan, most fans of teams, they'll know who's the best player on a team. They'll know who's the worst. They'll usually complain about the worst ones. That's what fans do. on a team, they'll know who's the worst. They'll usually complain about the worst ones. That's what fans do. One of the things that we have to constantly remind ourselves of as writers is

that if you're at the major league level, you are absolutely incredible at baseball. So a question I love to ask people, and I'd love to know your responses. If you're just, you're on the field, you got your 25-man roster, you're going through drills, game hasn't even started, maybe it's batting practice, maybe it's defense. How easy is it for you to tell the difference between the best player on the team and maybe the 25th man on the roster? Because it seems like the skills are just so elite, it's like splitting hairs. I would say definitely, I think critics are going to have their opinions and everything. It's like, all right, when people talk talk to or like listen to critics and everything about about different players.

But what I would say is make your own opinion. I don't just take somebody's word for for something. And and like whether it's like a news channel or sports channel, whatever it is, like, yeah, listen to them. But then form your own opinion. Don't let your opinion be somebody else's opinion. So that was really tough in baseball is because if a player gets tagged with something, especially a young player in the minor leagues, if that person is tagged as like a questionable player by more of like a senior coach or advisor or whatever it is, or a coordinator, then everybody else has that same opinion about that player. But it's like, no, go, go and follow your own opinion.

Like go and ask. Like, I remember I got tagged. I got, I got tagged, I think wrongfully about something about how, like, I couldn't call a game or something like that because I called like five sliders in a row. And all of a sudden it was spread around all of the organization that this guy doesn't know how to call a game. And that was a big reason why nobody ever bothered to come ask me why i called five sliders in a row they didn't know that the pitcher had just spiked three fastballs all over the place and the only thing

you can throw for a strike or get anywhere near the plate was a slider and it was the eighth inning and we're only ahead by two runs you know like those kinds of things. And so I really wish that people had came and like asked, informed their own opinion about me as a player. But if you were to take an elite player and a not so elite player, I mean, you can go watch Josh Johnson take BP or Giancarlo Stanton take BP and you're like, damn, now that's a good player, you know? And Carlos Sam's VP is just freakish. But when everybody is kind of the same, I think what really comes down to it is who's going to be coachable. I think a lot of that really does hold a lot of weight, is being coachable.

Because every team has their own philosophies and everything, and they all want the players to follow those philosophies. And I had a coach back when I was in a ball, I just overheard him say to another player, if they want salami, you give them salami. And I always remember that. And it's, and it is, it's just being coachable. It's just being open, not being stubborn. Cause a lot of, a lot of people, a lot of players come in, they're stubborn and they don't want to do anything else

but the way that they think they know how to do it. And it doesn't matter, even if you're right, you still need to be able to give them their salami if they want it. Because it's all egos out there on the field. Even the owners and the people who coordinate things, they got their egos and they want things done their way. That's how it goes. You do have to be part of the system for a while until you say, you know what?

I'm done being part of the system, and nature's calling. Quote John Jaso, give them their salami. Okay, last one. It's 2016, September 28th, last home game of the season. You came up against Jakeake arietta three times single home run double pedro stroke comes in seventh inning you hit a triple you got the cycle somebody asked me this question earlier today figure i might as well just pass it on to you as a hitter in the major leagues versus any other forehead game do you care about the cycle

at all i didn't know i hit for the cycle when i hit for the cycle. So not really, I don't think. I think, because I got that triple off stroke, and I got to third base, and Rick Selfield was my third base coach. And he's like, how about Jace? And I was like, Rick, I think I just hit for the cycle. And he was like, no way. And we both looked in the dugout, and they're all like, yeah, you know, in the dugout.

I was like, oh, my God, I just did. You didn't know until now. And I said, no. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, the cycle's cool, but you know, that per like I, that perfect game definitely is in my heart and fills up more of it than, than that cycle does and everything. I think, I think when you do, it's just such a team sport that when you do something as a team it's just like it becomes so much better and it's such a greater feeling

you know I just remember like the greatest moments I've had in baseball was winning championships in the minor leagues because we had nothing else besides you know four guys to a two bedroom apartment and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches every day. And then we won the championship and it was such a grind. But to do that together, it was the best thing ever. It was better than hitting for that cycle in the big leagues. All right. Well, we've been talking to John Jaso.

Does anyone call you Easy J? Or is that just what you chose for your players weekend jersey and you just made it up on the spot that was kind of just made up on the spot and and i got i got some help from bones the equipment guy up in pittsburgh and uh i couldn't really come up with anything because it was like it's always either been like jj or like johnny or something like that and he's just like how about easy day i was like sure put that on there yeah yeah you were that was easy yeah all right and lastly we have a listener named brian who's in our facebook group and he posted a picture that he took with you in april you were i don't know where it was but you were wearing a jack white shirt

and uh he said my wife and i moved to st pete not too long ago and we keep seeing or running into john jay so around town how does one go about making friends with a former MLB player in your mid thirties? How do you, how do you become friends with John J. So I say, just come up to me. I love talking to people.

I don't, I don't know. I don't shoot anybody away. So, um, I don't know if you're, if you're a chill dude, just come up to me and say hi or whatever.

And we'll, we'll talk about the weather. I don't know. If you're a chill dude, just come up to me and say hi or whatever. And we'll talk about the weather or something. I don't know, but definitely, definitely come up and say hi. All right. Well, it's been great talking to you and we wish you luck with the sailing effort. We hope you launch soon and enjoy your travels. And I hope that you'll keep us posted Or we'll find out somehow Where in the world you are and what you're doing Because we'll all be following with interest So thank you very much for your time, John

Cool, yeah, that'd be great Yeah, and thank you guys All right, that will do it for today and for this week The Dodgers' initial attempt at the opener strategy Didn't work so well They did end up winning the game, but it was sort of a slugfest Matt Kemp hit a home run, naturally Scott Alexander, the opener, gave up a run in an inning and a third. The interesting thing was, though, that he was only three spots away from hitting in the first

inning, and he was still warming up in the bullpen. So we were pretty close to him actually having to run in from the bullpen to hit, which would have been very amusing, but unfortunately, it didn't happen. Later in the game, Kenley Jansen was running in from the bullpen and he stumbled and he hurt his ankle. All could have been avoided if he just used a bullpen cart. Evidently, Jansen also ran into a sinkhole at Dodger Stadium the other day and had a massage table collapse while he was on it. So rough week for Kenley Jansen, but he did nail down the save. So I will put links to the two events that we talked about in the intro, Saber Seminar and the Mariners Women in Baseball event on the show page at Fangraphs as well as in the Facebook group. So please do go support those events if you're in the areas.

And please also support this podcast by going to Patreon. That's patreon.com slash effectively wild. Sign up to pledge some small monthly amount. Keep this podcast going. The following five listeners have already done so. Matthew Mudd. Jesse. E. goes only by E, Mark Gunther, and Daniel Goldstein. Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash Effectively Wild, and you can rate and review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes. Your reviews and

ratings are appreciated. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance, and please keep your questions and comments for me and Jeff coming via email at podcast at fangraphs.com, or if you're a Patreon supporter, via the Patreon messaging system. Thanks to everyone for listening this week. Have a wonderful weekend, and we will talk to you early next week. Clear sailing, that of you Looking for me, unveiling My brand new foreign uniform And all I had to do was keep away And away from the action

I'm catching the action