Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1332: The Life of Riley

Episode Date: February 8, 2019

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan dissect the trade that sent catcher J.T. Realmuto from the Marlins to the Phillies for Jorge Alfaro, Sixto Sanchez, and Will Stewart, honor the legacy of Frank Robinson, and then (22:28) bring back 88-year-old 1950s two-way player and podcast king Johnny O’Brien, along with his 24-year-old grandson, current Tampa Bay […]

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Hello and welcome to episode 1332 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs. Hello. Hello. We have some big baseball news today, but most of this episode will be devoted to an interview that we are extremely excited about. So just to tell you about that before we dive into the banter, all of you will remember if you were with us at the time. Episode 1153. This was in December 2017. We had one of the greatest guests in this podcast's history on the show,

Johnny O'Brien, former Major Leaguer from the 1950s, and we were charmed. Everyone was charmed by his stories and his sense of humor and his incredible memory. And he's back! Johnny's back. Johnny O'Brien, the sequel. We've been trying to arrange this for a while. We didn't just want to talk to Johnny again. Well, we did, but we figured we could do even better and bring on two O'Briens instead of one.

So Riley just turned 24. Johnny recently turned 88. So this is an intergenerational but intra-family discussion about how baseball has changed and hasn't changed. And Johnny is delightful as always. So if you missed episode 1153, go back and listen to it. It's still great. And you may enjoy this one slightly more if you've heard Johnny in the past. But you can also continue to listen. And Johnny is still

just a charmer and a wonderful guy. So happy that we could have them both on. Agreed. I know we have been wanting to do this for a number of months. I think this was you first brought the idea back to me in what was it early December, mid December? Yeah, it's been it's been a couple of months. But yeah, it is it is wonderful. Even to this point. I don't know why one would have expected things to change. Butny's memory continues to blow my own memory out of the water i think that the gap is actually widening which is not what i would have expected but here we are that's the reality i get to confront yeah so we'll get to that conversation shortly but one of the three off-season sagas in terms of transactions has finally been resolved. We've all been waiting

for Bryce Harper to sign. We've all been waiting for Manny Machado to sign. And we've all been waiting for JT RealMuto to be traded. And he finally has. So JT RealMuto no longer Miami Marlin. He has gone to the Philadelphia Phillies. And you have produced not one, but two JT RealMuto posts in a single day in addition to previous Real Mudo posts so I'll let you take the lead on this one you want to lay out the deal and and then we'll discuss it JT Real Mudo is probably the best catcher in baseball he is also no longer the best catcher in baseball for the Marlins he's no longer a catcher on the Marlins he's no longer a Marlin he is on the Phillies now there have been points this offseason where I thought JT Real Muto would inevitably end up with the Dodgers.

I thought he would inevitably end up with the Mets. I thought he would go to the Braves. I thought he would go to the Reds. Did I say the Padres yet? I thought he would go to the Padres. I thought he would go to the Rays at the very beginning of the offseason. I thought he was the most obvious get for the Rays. They got Mike Zanini instead.

And ultimately, JT Real Muda was wound up with the Phillies. He is going to replace Jorge Alfaro, who is going to Miami to take over. So those two have been swapped, also going over maybe most prominently, definitely most prominently, Sixto Sanchez, the Phillies' top pitching prospect, going the other way, as well as young lefty Will Stewart. And then there is also an international bonus slot that is included. Never really know how to talk about those very much, but it is worth a quarter of a million dollars, which is a lot of money.

But it's not just money that the Marlins get. Anyway, trade is done. I did write about Rail Moto twice on Thursday because hopefully we were given some warning. It seemed like things were coming to a head and it took a little bit of time for things to become official. But trade is done. It is a relief to have one of the sweepstakes over with i don't know what i know ken rosendale had already tweeted out that the the phillies like the idea of using ray almodo

as an inducement to try to further lure manny machado or bryce harper which i gotta say as far as inducements are concerned beats the hell out of like signing john jay for a season because i think yeah this way if you don't get one of them you're like well at least we have the best catcher in baseball i wrote what one of the posts i wrote on thursday was was titled the argument for jt real mood was baseball's best catcher and i realized after i wrote that like maybe it's actually more common knowledge than i thought that he is baseball's best catcher i really don't know if uh if enough people appreciate that but this is a move that is roughly on par with the Phillies getting Bryce Harper or Manny Machado. Just in terms of what Real Muto brings to the table, he is a star player.

He's the best at his position. And, of course, Harper has higher upside. We've seen that. Machado has higher upside. We've seen that. But Real Muto is a very good hitter. He's going to a better environment for his bat he's no longer going to play 81 games in miami he will now play nine or ten games in miami as a

hitter that's fewer that's numbers so his philadelphia should be a better environment for him and i think it's a good move the phillies have now added real moto andrew mccutcheon gene sagura and david robertson in the off the while, people are like, when are they going to go for it? When are they going to get a good player? So they've been busy. The NL East is going to be just almost as much of a competitive, it's not a nightmare, just a gauntlet like the NL Central. But for all I know, it's possible that the fourth best team in the East might even be

better than the best team in the Central. That might be an overstatement. But in any case, the Braves won this division by eight games last year. And now I look at them and I think, well, that could be a fourth best team in the East might even be better than the best team in the Central. That might be an overstatement. But in any case, the Braves won this division by eight games last year. And now I look at them and I think, well, that could be a fourth place team. Now, pity the poor Marlins, but they knew what they're getting into. And they're happy. I know they wanted to keep Real Mudo. They're happy to have this done.

I don't know how much time the Marlins wasted thinking they could go get someone like Brandon Nimmo or Cody Bellinger or Ozzy Albies for JT Real Mudo. That was never going to happen. That was stupid if they tried. But it didn't happen. They wound up with this package. And I got to say, looking at what the Marlins are getting, I just don't know. I have no idea.

I don't know if I've seen a trade where the centerpieces have such wide error bars. There might not be two more volatile high talent players in the upper levels of major league baseball jorge alfaro hits the ball really really hard he runs well he's actually according to stat cast the second fastest catcher in baseball behind only jt real mudo he throws really hard he his pop time is really good jorge al Alfaro does everything good except see the baseball that's thrown at him. So he's got, he has the worst difference between a strikeout and unintentional walk rate. He's through age 25. I looked at major league history.

Players through age 25, no one has a worse difference between strikeout and unintentional walk rate. I know years have changed and rates have changed, whatever. He had one of the worst strikeout rates in baseball last year, one of the worst walk rates. He is extremely aggressive. He's like if Javier Baez were in a mood, I guess. So I don't really know what to make of Jorge Alfaro. I look at him and I just can't help but see like, oh, it's going to be Miguel Olivo again. But like, genuinely, I mean, Javier Baez just had a big offensive season, so Alfaro could work. Sixto Sanchez is a different, maybe more familiar kind of gamble because he is just a young, super talented pitching prospect who was injured. He didn't break, he didn't snap, but it feels like maybe something could, and that is the concern. Right. Baseball America just rated him the number 13 prospect in all of baseball. I think MLB.com and Baseball Perspectives had him In the 20s, so obviously a very promising Player, but yeah, 19 years

Old, or I guess just turned 20, and he was In high A, and so there's a lot of uncertainty There, what with the arm and everything But clearly has a lot of talent It's funny you mention the shortcomings That Alfaro has as a hitter And they're real, but

He does, over the past couple seasons, have a 103 WRC plus in almost 500 plate appearances. So basically a full catching season. He's been an above league average hitter, not just above average for a catcher, but above league average. Now, maybe he can't keep that up, but of course he doesn't really have to to be valuable because he is a catcher. And this is an era when catchers can't hit. This is like a historically bad era for catcher offense, which is probably one reason why it seems like there just aren't a lot of player at the position, but he doesn't feel like he should be the best player at a position. It feels like, you know, Buster Posey or someone who's like an MVP caliber player should be at the top of that list. And right now, I think that it's hard to evaluate this because you're looking at the upgrade and Real Muto can be a very big upgrade on some teams. And he is a sizable upgrade for the Phillies as well.

But they have a pretty good catcher in Alfaro. And so I wonder, because I recently ranked all of the positions, the top 10 guys at every position for MLB Network, and we did catchers, and I did have Real Muto at the top of my list. Wasn't an easy call, but I went with him. But I had Alfaro as number 10. Now, maybe I'm too high on Alfaro that is relying on pitch framing, which is something he excelled at last year and Real Mudo doesn't really. But in that sense, it's less of an upgrade than it would be for some teams, probably, maybe even most teams, but still a significant one. And the Phillies are at that point where every win really matters,

especially if they do now use this as a lure to add Harper Machado. I grant I am an admitted, or if not before, I am now an admitted Jorge Alfaro and Sixo Santos skeptic. I think that they can be good. I certainly don't doubt their upside, but I think this is a trade where you'll see it depending on how comfortable you are with high volatility players. I am not super comfortable with Alfaro's skill set. I recognize he's been a league average hitter and therefore better than average hitting catcher to this point in his major league career but i mean the walks are dreadful

the strikeouts are dreadful he's got a 405 career babbitt which i mean lol no that's not going to be a real thing so he hits the ball really hard i like the upside but i i do think moving forward jorge alfaro was not as good as his numbers i am more i don't know careful with the pitch framing numbers than i think i've ever been before just because i think that there's a reason to believe that maybe they don't do such a great job of separating the the influence of just the pitchers that you're catching uh because jt romoto you might realize has been catching some bad pitchers last year jorge alfaro for example got got to catch some good pitchers. I know that Alfaro did improve as a defender last season.

And that's great. He does everything well, except for what I consider to be the most important thing as a hitter. So that's going to be a little difficult. And again, Miguel Olivo lasted a long time in the majors. So even if Alfaro, I don't know whether that's like the 40th or 50th percentile outcome for his career. But, you know, Olivo came up as a prospect and he stuck around for a while and he never knew how to hit. He just ran into a ball every so often and it went a long way. So that was now granted.

Olivo also couldn't really frame. Not a great defender. Alfaro has the leg up on him. But I feel like if you are going to have someone who's that volatile I would I'd be willing to give him up and as much as if Sixer Sanchez was going to be like the the sticking point I will pretty much 10 times out of 10 give up an injured young unpolished pitching prospect to go get the best player at a position so I I get why Phillies fans some Phillies fans might not love this trade, but I really like

Rail Moto, and I think this is a really good move. Yeah. And as my colleague at The Ringer, Zach Kram, recently documented and came on the show to talk about, there is a pattern where top 50 prospects, historically speaking, the ones that get traded don't end up panning out quite as well as the ones that don't get traded, which suggests that perhaps their organizations know something about them, just have a little less faith and for good reason. So for instance, if the Phillies are wary of Sanchez for whatever reason, then that's something you can

take into account and think, well, maybe they had a reason for trading him that's not immediately apparent. But yeah, I think that Real Mudo is probably the best catcher in baseball, as you explained in your post. Really, you have to completely buy into the framing to make an argument for anyone else. And I think I do mostly buy into it, but because he has been pitching with this extremely bad staff, maybe there is something to him being underrated as a receiver. And he's not bad. He's perfectly competent, even according to the stats and everything else he's good at. He's fast, especially for a catcher.

And he hits for power and he hits extremely well on the road historically. And that's another thing that you've shown that it seems as if playing in Miami has hurt him more than playing in a home park has hurt just about any player over the past 15 years or so. And so if you look at his road line and say, well, that's going to be his home line now, well, then he'll be an even better hitter than he has been in the past. I don't know that you can completely expect that to be the case. Maybe there was some small sample stuff going on there, but it is pretty striking when you look at how much he was apparently hurt by Marlins Park and how much of an upside there might be there. Yeah, I definitely don't want to make too much of this, but it amused me when I saw that over

the past three years, JT RealMuto has a better WS Plus on the road than Bryce Harper and Manny Machado. Yeah, right. Well, I think that one reason I've seen some criticism, and maybe it's more just saying, yeah, the Marlins got a pretty good return here they did fairly well of course we all thought that about the Christian Jelic trade and now it looks like the the Brewers did quite well with that trade but I think one angle where you could criticize the decision making is you might say well why not hold on to your talent hold on to your prospects and just spend some money they said they were going to spend a lot of money this offseason. Of course, maybe they are holding some in reserve for Machado or Harper, but you had Yasmany Grandal out there, and we know he ended up signing for a single year, and the gap between Grandal and Real Mudo, at least statistically speaking, doesn't seem to be significant. Statistically speaking, doesn't seem to be significant.

So that's the case, I guess. If you have money, why not just go get Grandal for one year? And they may not have known that Grandal would end up signing for one year. And who knows? Maybe they never had the opportunity to match that offer. Maybe he didn't want to play there. Who knows what was going on behind the scenes? But just kind of from the outside, you could look at it and say, why not hold on to Alfaro or hold on to Sanchez and just sign a stopgap really good guy for one year and hoard your prospects? Because Real Mudo is younger and he's about to turn 28 next month and he's only signed for two years.

So it's not like you're getting a really long-term guy here relative to Grundahl. Yeah, no, that's fair. And what I can only sort of have to assume is maybe the Phillies don't have quite as much money to spend as people would want the Phillies to be able to spend. Now, I don't know. Again, we can never speak to their books, but pretty obviously the Phillies are trying to go for it. They didn't hesitate in spending for Andrew McCutcheon.

They didn't hesitate in spending for Andrew McCutcheon. They didn't hesitate in spending for David Robertson. They have spent money and they are still trying to spend a whole lot of money to get one of the two premium players out there. I don't know to what extent it's just hard to create a budget when you are looking to hand out what could still end up being the biggest contract in the history of Major League Baseball. Probably won't get there, but could. So I don't know what that that is like I do understand and appreciate the argument that you could have just gone and signed Grandal potentially and not had to do this but on the other hand I like Real Muda more than Grandal I think there are fewer question marks with Real Muda than there are with Grandal definitely cost less and and I have reason to believe that Sixto Sanchez was sort of more

available throughout the offseason than was let on, in which case, just as Zach Graham and others have pointed out, that could be considered something of a yellow or maybe even red flag. That there just could be something that the Phillies aren't in love with anymore, and they saw this as an opportunity to sell high. Yeah. So I don't know if you happen to have the depth charts and projections handy, but where do the Phillies project if Real Mudo has been added to their depth charts already? Well, I have added him to their depth chart, but I believe it's not yet reflected on the public facing side. But that being the case, the Phillies should move up, obviously, some number of wins. This is all still going to be based on the steamer projections. I think that when this is done, they're going to end up close to but still behind the Mets. And then the Nationals are out in front of the Mets,

and so they'll be about even with the Braves, pending, of course, the possibility that the Phillies do still one more thing. So it's coming together. There are questions still on the roster. Michael Franco is still listed as a starter. Roman Quinn or Nick Williams or Oduble Herrera, that's currently going to be two-thirds of the outfield. That could be improved upon, but the Phillies will look more like a wild card contender after this move. And then with the next one, if there is a next one, then they're going to surge all the way up and maybe push the Nationals. Yeah. So there are a lot of teams that could potentially afford Harper or Machado or could certainly benefit from Harper or Machado, but the Phillies are right on that bubble where not only do they have positional needs and openings

for those guys, but they're at that point where adding one of those guys and upgrading by four or five wins could actually push them across some sort of threshold or at least push them right into top contender status. So if you want to talk about marginal wins and wins and war being worth more to certain teams that are in certain competitive situations, the Phillies kind of meet that description because this is a tough division. And I don't know if they don't make that one more move, they won't enter the season as the favorite most likely. Yep.

All right. So I think that wraps up our Real Mudo discussion. It's nice to have that whole offseason waiting behind us. And just one more word, Frank Robinson died on Thursday at 83. And I don't know that either of us is qualified to deliver the comprehensive Frank Robinson obituary. Obviously, we never saw him play and didn't root for teams whose legacy he was really important to, but he is obviously an inner circle Hall of Fame player, one of the best hitters of all time. I was just scanning, if you look at, say, career WRC Plus, and he's a guy who played till he was 40 so he dragged his numbers down a little bit there at the end he's still like a top 20 hitter of all time if you set the numbers to a fairly long career

and everyone knows i mean the mvp awards in both leagues being traded at 30 and what ended up being one of the most lopsided trades of all time and kind of unusually for his era, splitting his career between the Reds and the Orioles. And that was not something that happened all that often with superstars at that point. And just an incredible inner circle player and one of the guys who his impact and legacy goes beyond the stats because, of course, he was the first black manager he was a high-ranking executive at mlb and an advisor till the very end and was an outspoken critic of the lack of representation in the major league hierarchy and just like at the top of any list of most feared

players and just relentless and tough players and i know he meant a lot to people who saw him play. And perhaps a guy whose greatness as a player is a little overshadowed by his post-playing career and the way that he was a trailblazer. If you just look back at his peak, it is one of the most impressive peaks of all time. Yeah. Like you said, I'm definitely, you and I are not qualified to deliver the proper eulogy here. So I will just point out that Frank Robinson ranks 24th in baseball history with 107.3 wins above replacement, according to baseball reference. And somehow, because of I don't know how voting works, 1982, he was elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. But 45 of 415 voters left him off.

Somehow, 45 out of 415 voters decided robinson was not one of the greatest players of all time even though to that point he was absolutely one of greatest players of all time those are people who didn't even have the chance to watch barry bonds take a plate appearance or an event so i don't know what else there is for me to try to say i can't do it justice so i shouldn't even bother you should uh if you all are big fans of frank robinson or want to hear more about him read more about him i would recommend just typing into google and figuring out and reading some accounts of people who who knew him or who saw him play or preferably both because they are going to be able to tell you much more than ben and i can but we can give you

jt rail mood of news just out the wazoo. Well, fortunately, we're about to talk to someone who not only saw Frank Robertson play, but also played against him. So we will briefly ask Johnny O'Brien about his experience with Frank Robinson. And by the way, it's been a very busy baseball news week, finally, fortunately. And there is stuff that we don't even have time to talk about today, but we have another episode coming up tomorrow. So all the stuff about proposed changes to the game and possible rules stuff, we will get into that very soon. But right now we will take a quick break and we'll be back with Johnny O'Brien and Riley O'Brien. What a great double play. The other team never can get to score. In every inning, we keep them from winning. Each time that they try for a rally, that's when we save the day.

Someone's on first and the game is in doubt. The guy up at bat hits a terrible clout. The dust clears away and they're both of them out. O'Brien to Ryan. To Goldberg. So we are thrilled now to be joined again by Johnny O'Brien, one of our favorite podcast guests of all time. And he was, of course, a Pirates and Cardinals and Braves player in the 1950s

and a college basketball legend and a great storyteller. Johnny, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Ben. It's a pleasure being with you and having the grandson on with you. Yes. Well, you've given it away. So we are also joined now by Johnny's grandson, Riley O'Brien, who is a pitcher in the Tampa Bay Rays organization and just celebrated his birthday earlier this week. Hello, Riley. Hi. How are you guys? We are doing well. So I know that there is a story that you have told before, Hello, Riley. O'Briens because you were, you know, 5'8", 5'9", and they were expecting 6'3", 6'4".

Riley actually is 6'4". So where did that height come from? How did you get so tall, Riley? We honestly have no idea. We've been trying to figure it out for years. Yeah, we have no clue. So you're just the outlier in the O'Brien family? Yeah.

Most of the grandchildren are over 6 feet. Yeah. So maybe are you the outliers then, Johnny, and your brother Ed? Were you the unusual ones in the family? No, no. My dad was one of the 12 children, eight boys, and none of them were six feet. And Al Brightman, when he got a scholarship for Ed and I at Seattle U, he told him we were 6'3 or 6'4. So, you know, I'll stay with that. So, Riley and I are about 6'4 today. Yeah. So, we were about 5'8, 5'9 in those days.

And it's kind of interesting. And the answer to your question is hard to say because all of the grandchildren, the boys are over six feet. Riley's brother, Brendan, is a pitcher at Linfield on a college scholarship, and he's almost 6'3". Our grandson, Connor, is a sophomore at Seattle University, a heck of a shortstop, and he's 6'2". So they must have been eating better than we did. So we're obviously here talking to Riley and Grandfather Johnny and Johnny, you and your brother both

played in the major leagues and Riley, you and the other family in your generation is active. You are an active professional with the Tampa Bay Rays. What was happening in the intermediate generation? Was there any high-level performance in Riley in your dad's generation, or did it just kind of skip a step?

I mean, I know my dad did soccer and baseball stuff when he was young, but it seems to me like it kind of just skipped a generation. Yeah, I think that's true. The boys, you know, they were athletic, but they played a lot of soccer and some baseball, but they didn't get involved professionally at all. And this group now, I think Brendan and Connor have also got a chance of being drafted one of these days.

And I'm looking forward to the day I go out to the ballpark and watch Riley throwing in the major leagues. Yeah. Well, John, I know you had seven kids and, what, 11 grandchildren and counting. So when did you realize that Riley had a chance, or at what age did he show this promise, did you think? Well, you know, Ed and I taught baseball schools for years with about four other fellows out here.

And Riley and his brothers and all the youngsters, the grandsons, attended the camps, and we were very strong on fundamental teaching of the game of baseball. And I think it rubbed off on them. It was very helpful, I would have to say that. And they're all fundamentally sound, and they had enough ability, all of them, to gain a college scholarship. One of the things that I noticed about our family is they can all throw hard.

Everybody can throw the ball hard, and I think that got us into, well, Ed and I, into pitching as well as everything else, and Riley is pitching. They've used Brendan in Linfield College as a pitcher. And Connor is a shortstop and a backup pitcher at Seattle University. So good arm strength and fundamental knowledge has been the key. And, of course, as I told you last year, it has been a great thing for both Ed and I to get a college education and a

degree. And it also is the same thing for Riley, no matter what happens from this moment on. He has a degree in business administration from the College of Idaho, which incidentally is the same school that Elgin Baylor went to before he transferred to Seattle U. And so the baseball, which is the equivalent of five hummingbirds, weighs five ounces, has been an awfully important thing in the O'Brien family. So, Riley, I was curious. When I, I'll just scroll to your baseball reference page, and when I look at the College of Idaho, there are exactly six players who are in the database. The school was founded in 1891. I don't know how far back the baseball program stretches, but in any case, you are exactly six players who are in the database. The school was founded in 1891.

I don't know how far back the baseball program stretches, but in any case, you are one of the only players from the College of Idaho who has been selected to participate in professional baseball. So what is the story behind how you were scouted and ultimately signed by Tampa Bay? So, I mean, I kind of struggled through college. I didn't, I went to a community college before I went to College of Idaho and really didn't get a lot of time. I just didn't quite have it figured out. And then my head coach at my community college, he attended College of Idaho. And he actually, I believe on last Sunday, he was inducted into the Hall of Fame for College of Idaho. And so he called up the coach and they said, hey, I have this guy, he's got some potential,

but he doesn't really have it figured out right now. And the coach, my head coach at College of Idaho, he took a chance on me, never saw me pitch, nothing. They were able to give me a little scholarship money and then had a pretty decent junior year and then senior year is when it all kind of clicked. We had a scout day. So a couple of scouts came out and saw

and I think one of them was interested. We talked a little bit. I filled so a couple of scouts came out and saw, and I think one of them was interested. We talked a little bit. I filled out a couple of questionnaires, and then there was one game during the season. We were playing Lewis and Clark State, who's one of the top programs in the NAIA, and that was when I was originally in the bullpen. And then about a half hour before the game, the coach said that I was going to start that game, and I ended up starting, and I pitched well, And my velocity was higher than it had ever been. And I think that really caught the interest of a lot of scouts.

And one of the scouts there was the Ray Scout. And we stayed in touch. They came back and watched me a few more times. And then, yeah, they ended up taking me in the draft. You know, I never got to know either of my grandfathers. So the first time we talked to John, I almost wanted him as an honorary grandfather. I feel like you won the grandfather sweepstakes here. So growing up, knowing John and also Ed, I mean, how did that rub off on you or listening to these stories, being coached by them? Did that play an important role in your going on to be a baseball player?

Or what was it like just to be regaled with these tales of old baseball i mean absolutely it's great to have him growing up and you know and as you guys know he's got he could tell stories all day so just you know being a kid and hearing all these stories and and then now that i'm playing and going through and kind of relating to some of them i mean it's just been great he's been there and the whole time he's always keeping up it's definitely been i've been's been there the whole time. He's always keeping up. It's definitely been, I've been lucky to have him. I don't want to assume anything about how often you talk or what your communication

is like between Riley and you, Johnny. But I was curious because not only, Riley, are you playing now in the minor league baseball, but you're also playing with the Tampa Bay Rays, who are considered one of the more progressive and technical organizations in baseball today. And I don't know to what extent that has influenced you, but how often have you and your grandfather talked about just what player development looks like now versus what it looked like 60, 70 years ago? We've been able to talk about it a little bit, you know, I mean, especially now with all the technology that goes into everything and all the decisions that get made on which players are good

and not i mean it's just crazy just like here when he talks about how you know they really had none of that back then it was just you know if you can play you can play and then now seeing what it's like it's just i mean it's two completely different worlds. It's crazy. Yeah. Are there aspects of that that you wish that you had had in your career, Johnny, or are you happy that you missed this era? No, I'm a person that doesn't look back. I was very happy, though, to be there and to be able to do the things that I was able to do. And I noticed I haven't given Riley, you know, a lot of instruction.

I only tell him two things. I tell him, when you land there throwing that pitch, that front foot has to point directly at the plate and throw strikes. And I don't think that makes me a super person in the knowledge of baseball, but it sure is an effective way to pitch. And I noticed today in an unfortunate situation, Frank Robinson died. Yes. And Frank Robinson was the first guy I ever pitched against in the major leagues.

Yeah, we had you tell that story on the last podcast, which was great. And I was going to bring it up today again, just to ask if you had any other recollections of playing against him in the early years of his career. That was the only time I ever pitched against him. And as I told you, I thought I was coming in to play second base, and Bergen pointed to the mound, and Hank Foyles came out, and Bertie Tebbitz, you know, he tried to say I couldn't pitch because I had to scream behind the plate with my first throw and get warming up.

And there was no pitcher's roster in the National League. And so, long story short, Robinson was the first guy. Hank Foyles asked me what I got. I said, I got nothing. So, you know I throw hard. I got that goofy hard knuckleball I throw. It looks like a splitter. That's it.

And he said, okay. He said, one's a fastball, two's a curve, three's a slider. Wiggle of the hands as they change up and fist is, and I said, what the hell are you giving me all those things for? I haven't got any. So anyway, I pitched the runs in and I threw a fastball by him. Then I kind of brushed him back, not on purpose. I was trying to come inside, but he hung right over the plate.

Threw another fastball, got it past him, and then Fwells put down two for a breaking ball. I said, what the hell is that? So I was moving my fingers around, trying to figure out what to do. I threw it as hard as I could. It couldn't be a pretty good slider, and I struck him out. And I've always thought, on the way back to the dugout, Robinson must have said,

if that bird can strike me out, maybe it's time to retire. So anyway, he didn't retire. He became the MVP in both leagues, the only player to ever do that. And he was quite a player. You know, I think Ed and I were so proud that we played against 52 Hall of Famers, either with them or against them in our day.

And, you know, it's sad to see him pass on, but he was a great asset to the game of baseball. Yeah, I've seen stories and read quotes from people who played second base when he was on the bases and would say that he would play so hard, he would slide in so hard, it was scary just to be playing second when he was at first. So maybe you lucked out facing him on the mound instead of being in the field, as you thought. Well, I was playing second base on a number of occasions when he came in, but when playing basketball, I was able to leap pretty quick.

I would get up in the air and get over and get the ball over to first base. But in our day, yeah, when you came across that bag, you didn't know what was going to happen. You had to do one of the four ways to get out of the way or you were going to get hit. But the key was you had to make that throw to first base to try to get the sub up. And, you know, today they're into this analytics or whatever the heck they call it and all that stuff, and we never had any of that. And I'm not a great fan of it to begin with.

It tells you when you're going good, what you're doing and all that, but it doesn't take into account when you're hitting, you go through slumps, you go through good stages, and when you're hitting good, you don't care who's pitch, and when you're going bad, surely tempo control is the only way to get you out. So, you know, analytics doesn't analyze that, and so I think some of this stuff is a little bit overdone, but no one has asked my opinion except you on that. And I don't think anybody will. But anyway, the game has changed dramatically. Money's a great big part of it.

You know, in our day, no one knew what another player was making or anything like that. Statistics would come out on the paper on Sunday that would cover up to Thursday, so you never knew exactly what you were hitting or what the ERAs were. Now they change automatically. And so it was a totally different game.

Pitchers got the ball, and they wanted nine innings. They didn't want five and look around for help. And, of course, it's changed. Money is a very different part of the game now. And it involves the need to make some trades and things like that, which you ordinarily might not want to make because of salary caps and things of that nature. But you know, I consider myself a dinosaur in regard to baseball. But I like the fact that I was a dinosaur in an era where there was a lot of good dinosaurs playing. I appreciated the part of the answer imputing the

state of analytics when Riley is here playing for one of the most analytical organizations in Major League Baseball. And I was curious, I realize we haven't done what we usually do. Riley, if you wouldn't mind, we know that you're very tall and we know that you've pitched in the low minors, but could you offer us sort of a scuff scouting report? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a starting pitcher. My fastball is pretty good. Delos from mid-90s get up to 97, 98. Good slider. Curveball needs some work, and my change has been developing recently, but yeah, I mean, that's about it. I mean, that's about it. throwing in your day. We didn't have data on that. There were no radar guns. So I'm sure you could tell who the hard throwers were and who they weren't, but it's hard to compare to today's pitchers. But the speeds that even, you know, Riley is throwing, you would think there just weren't many guys in that era who could throw that hard. I mean, that must have been the absolute

top of the scale. Do you see Riley pitch today and think, I'm glad I didn't have to face him? Or were there guys who were throwing that hard in your day? Well, I'm sure I wouldn't want to face Riley because he'd probably knock me down on the first pitch to show who's in charge. But, you know, in my day, Sandy Koufax could throw as hard as anybody today. In my day, Sandy Koufax could throw as hard as anybody today. Bob Feller, Bob Rush, did it for Ben Mizeau when he first came up. There were a lot of hard throwers,

but nobody knew how hard they threw. As a matter of fact, one time the owner of the Washington Ball Club when they were in the American League put on a promotion that they were going to put the clock on Bob Feller when he came in with Cleveland to pitch against him. And they got one of the old-time radars that the State Patrol used to use to try to figure out how hard he was throwing. And Feller, being as smart as he was, he said he wasn't going to throw unless they paid him something.

So anyway, he got a few dollars for it, and the radar thing was so antiquated that they never could get a real reading. So anyway, we know they were hard throwers, and I think you're right. I think there is more of them today because, you know, the vitamins, they're bigger and they're stronger nowadays. They're into other types of things which tend to give them more velocity. The key, of course, to getting your optimum speed is having the good mechanics. That's one thing I've always liked about Riley.

He's got good mechanics. And with that front pointed right at the place and a good follow-through, I hope that someday I'll go down to the ball field here and see Riley pitching for Tampa Bay. And I've got to tell you, another thing that's different, Riley pitched for four different ball clubs in the Tampa Bay organization this year. They were the Hot Rods,

the Stone Crabs, the Dorn Bulls, and the Montgomery Biscuits. It almost sounds like you're coming to the dinner table with some of these ball clubs today. We were pirates and lions and stuff like that.

Anyway, the game has changed. It's a game of more strength, bigger people, and I think that's just a part of the evolution of the game. Like I tell people, if I was born today, I'll be 89 in a couple of months, I'd be bigger and stronger. And I'm sure 20 years from now, well, I look at the Seattle basketball team. We're in the WSC, Western Athletic Conference. And I go to the games and I look at the scorecard before the game starts, and every team in that league, that Seattle is in this year,

has at least one seven-footer on the team. In my day, Bob Curlin was about the only seven-footer that was rolling around, and George Bikett was 6'10". I played against Mike a couple of times. So the athletes are bigger, they're stronger, they're into more training programs and things that we had in our day. Nowadays they have trainers and they have exercise people, all that stuff.

We had a temporary doctor at the Pirates that would go to get the wax out of your ears, but that was about all that was done because nobody would admit they were sick or hurt because you knew there were 5,700 ball clubs in minor leagues, I should say, and a lot of players down there were better than you, so you wouldn't let anybody know you were hurt, you were play hurt. Today, there's much more with the agent and all of that of, I don't say coddling the youngsters, but taking better care of them. I don't know if either one of you caught wind. There was a minor controversy recently where relief pitcher Adam Adovino said that if he faced Babe Ruth, that he

would strike him out pretty much every single time. And some people took offense to that, thinking here's Babe Ruth, greatest hitter of all time, and that's Adam Maldivino. Pretty good one-inning relief pitcher. I don't mean to put either of you on the spot, but have you decided now, Johnny, you made the Major Leagues, Riley, you're on your way. On the other hand, Riley, you throw 95, 97 miles per hour with three other pitches. Johnny, you might not have faced that. Have you decided exactly

how often, Riley, you would have struck Johnny out if you were facing each other at your peak? I'll answer that. I'll answer that zero. I'd have got the ball on the bat. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, I was a contact type hitter. I'd have put the ball in play somewhere.

But Rodney, the thing about Roddy Is to I guess Tell you this When they had him down there for a special deal They do all kinds of Experimenting now And they have already determined that his Fastball and his breaking ball Is above Major League standards

So they have Good high hopes for him and of course you know you you always keep your fingers crossed because there could be injuries there could be a lot of things happen but uh we and the family are in high hopes of all going down to the ballpark someday and and watching rowdy troll 98 and get the ball past them in those Mariners. Last time we talked to Johnny, we talked about how he was a bonus baby and he went directly to the big leagues. Riley,

I wonder if you can imagine doing that because obviously you want to be in the big leagues. That's the goal and hopefully it'll happen sometime soon. Johnny just went straight from college to the big leagues when he was the same age that you were when you were pitching in rookie ball so can you imagine making that transition which almost nobody

makes these days yeah I mean that's just something that doesn't happen I mean even especially looking at our organization seeing how talented some of the players are and how long they take developing them and not rushing them and pushing them too quick. I mean, to think that somebody would skip every minor league level and go straight to the big leagues is, I mean, that's just crazy. Yeah, the Rays have a reputation for taking their time with pitchers and bringing them along sort of cautiously. And I know that you got up to AAA for a couple innings at the end of last season in the playoffs. Do you have any idea where you'll be starting this season or is that still to be determined? I mean, I really don't know. It won't be AAA. They made it clear that, you know,

it was what they brought me up because they felt that I had a good season and they want to reward me by, you know, giving me some experience in a higher level ball club. But they didn't make it clear that, you know, most likely I'm not going to be breaking there this season. But I mean, as for, I mean, it's really hard to tell where they, they don't really say anything, honestly, until the day that they post the rosters. So it's really kind of hard to get a read. Yeah, it was interesting. Riley moved up four grades last year.

A, strong, A, double A, triple A. So, you know, performance dictates with a lot of what's going to happen. And what Johnny was just referencing about how your pitches grade out, is that sort of like a trackman- based thing that you've had your pitches tracked and i don't know whether you've done some of the the high speed camera work and gotten a look at all of that what what sort of uh data have you been given access to i mean it wasn't until this is about a week or two ago i got it was uh yeah spin spin rates from my trackman uh numbers all along through the season but that was really kind of the first thing that they gave us

that had to do with analytics. Last year, they kind of didn't really show us too much. I think they didn't want us to get in our heads and start overthinking stuff. They made it clear this year that they want to make sure everyone's informed about their spin rates and what pitches are effective when. And so I think they're going to start implementing that more

because they're starting to see success with it. Riley, last season, of course, the Rays unveiled their idea of using the opener. They played Jose Alvarado at first base. They played Sergio Romo at third base. There are a few teams that are more creative than theirs. And is it more exciting or sort of disruptive to be pitching in an organization where they seem to demand so much versatility and you might not necessarily know what a role would look like even if you did make it to the major leagues? Yeah, I mean, you know, it's not something I think about too much. I pitched out of the bullpen. I've been a starter, been a late inning guy. But I mean, so really all I think about is just pitching well and however they want to use me. That'll get me up to the big leagues.

That's fine with me. Yeah, I mean, it is cool to see all the stuff that they're doing. And, you know, even the opener stuff kind of trickled down to my leagues, and we did it a few times. And, you know, it's just kind of interesting to see how it's all working out. Yeah. Johnny, as you mentioned, in the era when you were playing, guys mostly just finished what they started or at least intended to, but there was some flexibility, like, you know, rotations were not quite as rigid as they are now where you have the same five guys going in the same order, right? I mean,

there would be some, you know, this guy pitches against this team and maybe you have your best guy go against your top opponent and guys would maybe go in and out of swingman roles, sort of, maybe in a little more flexible way than we have today? There was some rotation of pitchers, but in those days, pitchers pitched every fourth day, not fifth day. And they paced themselves, I think. And nowadays, the pitchers, it seems like some of them are told to throw as hard as you can for six innings and we'll get somebody else in there. In the old days, they gave the ball to the pitcher and they said, give us nine innings. And the one difference in that was that when you had pitchers pitching every fourth day

and not so much the use of pitchers from the sixth inning on, you were able to have one or more utility players on your staff because you weren't using as many pitchers. And so that was a difference that has changed around a bit. Yeah, I told you the story last year. Lou Burdette won't give Fred Haney to ball one time, when Haney came out to get him with Mewsfield batting. And when the pitchers got the ball in those days, boy, they wanted nine innings.

They didn't want anybody messing around with their game. And I don't know whether I told you about playing second base and Warren Spahn's 250th win. Beat the Phillies 3-1. And in the eighth inning, Del Andes got a triple off Spahn and scored a run, I think, with Granny Hamner scored. And after the game, we're all congratulating Spahn on his 250th win.

And he said to me, oh, did you see that lousy pitch I threw to Andes in the eighth inning? He was concerned about throwing a bad pitch in his mind storm 50 winning he said to me oh did you see that lousy picture i threw the anis and he ate that he was more concerned about throwing a bad pitch in his mind to anis than he was about his storm 50 it went so it was a a great deal of uh i want to do it and i want to do it myself and the game has changed somewhat in that direction but uh who's better for the worse? You know, they're drawing record dependences. The agent and the free agency has kind of changed the game around quite a bit. But, you know, it's still a great game, and everybody loves playing in it. And did I see, Ben, that Bob Friend passed away?

Yes, that's right, just recently. You know, the minute I saw that, I thought of a game in Chicago we played where Bob was pitching, day game, Nat King Cole was at the game, and matter of fact, that was the first time he was in the second row

by the visitor's dugout, and we were on the first base side, and the batter's box was right close to the stands, and I hear this, hello, Johnny, and I turn around, and it was first base side, and the batter's box was right close to the stands, and I hear this, Hello, Johnny, and I turn around and we're not taking goals. And I damn near dropped my teeth.

Today I could have given them to him. But he would say hello to all the players. It was just great. But anyway, Fred was pitching this day, and Fred had a very, very strong sinker and a half curveball, half slider. And he was very effective with him.

He threw strikes. And I remember this day, he was on the top of his game. And one part of the game, I think it might have been Frankie Baumholz, hit a slow grounder just past Bob coming up towards second base. I came roaring in and grabbed it barehanded and threw to DeFondy or Dale Long over first base, almost beat the throw by half a step. That was the only player that got on base on friend that whole day.

We wound up winning the game 2-0, 3-0, but that was as close to Bob came to a perfect game, and it shows you that the game can be a game of inches. I recognize this might be kind of an awkward question, but I think we're all mostly familiar with what it would be like if you were maybe someone's son and you're coming up, you're playing organized sports, and maybe your dad was successful at those sports

and so you're getting lessons from a young age. But I don't know, assuming, Riley, you're now, you've turned into an adult of a certain maturity, but you also would lessons from a young age but i don't know assuming riley you're now you've turned into an adult of a certain maturity but you also would have been a young boy you would have been playing baseball for a while and at what age if if hopefully by this age did you start to appreciate the fact that your grandfather did play in the major leagues and and maybe start listening to the lessons because i have to think that when you're like six or seven or or 12 or 14 maybe you're more inclined to roll your eyes yeah I would definitely say it was around early high school I think you know when I started to take baseball more seriously and you know the more I heard stories about him and like how good he was and all that like all

the good things people had to say and you know that's when I really like that's when I really started to appreciate it more and then as I've grown older, you know, it's just more and more appreciation, especially, you know, during the season. I hear some fans will come up to me and be like, hey, are you related to Johnny and Eddie O'Brien? And I'll be like, oh, yeah, you know, they grew up watching them. And so just every time I hear something like that, you know, it's just it's cool. And it makes me appreciate it, appreciate what he did and who he is more and more. Yeah. And we didn't even talk to Johnny that much about his great basketball career last time, but we probably should have. He was the first college player to score a thousand points in a season and first team All-American and beat the Globetrotters very memorably.

Did you play other sports growing up, Riley? Were you as serious about other sports, or did you concentrate on baseball? You know what I mean? When I was a kid, I played all sorts, basketball and soccer and a little football. But I think for the most part, it was pretty much just baseball after. I played soccer probably up until I was like maybe 12, 13. And after that, it was pretty much just baseball. I kind of just fell in love with it. And that was the only sport I wanted to play. Yeah. And Johnny, I know you and Ed were both drafted by the Hawks and could have played in the NBA. And there's a lot of discussion these days about, is it better to specialize early and play the sport that you know you want to play year

round? Or is it better to take some time off and play other sports? Did you feel like the basketball helped you as a baseball player? Oh, absolutely. The thing that gets lost sometimes in the transition is that Ed and I used basketball and baseball to get a college degree. That's what we were aiming for. And so the way to get it, because we didn't have any money, was to excel in sports. And so when it was basketball season, we did everything we could to improve as basketball players. When it was baseball season, we did everything in that way. And we went to college, and our aim was to get a college degree in business administration, which we did and

which was very helpful to me and other things I did after sports. And that was the key thing. The baseball and the basketball was the vehicle that enabled us to get that education. And then we let the trips fall where they may. As you said, we got drafted by the NBA. But in those days, you could do that. You can't today because the seasons are longer and they overlap and you can't play both sports. And basketball today is much more physical than it was in the old days. I mean, you've got to have undying strength as well as agility to

play in the NBA today. So anyway, we didn't program ourselves in any direction except to get that college scholarship, which was the goal of our dad that he wanted us to get. And we were so grateful. That's why we do what we can

for Seattle U now of taking a chance on this when nobody else would because they were damn in two scholarships on two little guys, 5'8", 5'9". Though Seattle U thought we were 6'4". So, Johnny, you went straight to the major leagues. And, of course, the money in the major leagues was very different in the 50s than it is now even with the league minimum. But one of the things you therefore didn't experience was what life is like in the minor leagues. And so, Riley, going back to you, you've been in the minors for a year and a half. You were, you know, you got a signing bonus as an eighth-round pick,

but it wasn't one of those seven-figure, eight-figure signing bonuses of yours. So I was curious, how well taken care of do you feel in the minor leagues? Do you feel like you were put in a good enough position to get the most out of yourself in terms of what you're able to eat, how you're able to sleep, and just kind of your habits? Do you feel like you're sufficiently taken care of, I guess? Yeah, I would say so. I don't know what it's like in other organizations, but our organization does well. Obviously, you can't do anything about the travel and game times and stuff,

but they always try to make sure that they have food for us, or if not, they give us meal money. They try to be accommodating for us. Yeah, I think we're taken care of. It would be nice to get a little more money. That's not through the organization. That's just the old minor leagues. Sometimes it's kind of hard to live off $1,000 a month,

but I can't complain. Getting to play baseball and live my dream. It's all worth it. the old minor leagues, sometimes it's kind of hard to live off a thousand bucks a month, but you know, can't complain. Yeah. Getting to play baseball and live my dream. So it's all worth it. Yeah. I wanted to ask about the off season because Johnny, when you were playing, lots of guys had off season jobs or, you know, maybe you would just take it easy and then you'd work yourself back into shape in spring training. whereas now guys are working out constantly and never really let themselves go. How did you spend your off-seasons when you were playing in the 50s?

Well, as a comparison, let's say this year Riley gets to the major leagues. His minimum salary will be $575,000. My first year in 1953 in the major leagues, my salary was $75,000. My first year in 1953 in the Major Leagues, my salary was $6,000. So if you didn't win the World Series, you had to get a job to get to the next year. Then one year, a couple years,

I worked for the coroner out in Seattle picking up bodies. And you would get any kind of a job. And it was a little difficult to get a job because you weren't getting a job that somebody could say, oh, this guy's going to be with the company for a long time. You were just getting an interim halftime job to make enough money to get to the next baseball season. So things have dramatically changed. player today, if he's in the major leagues a year and he's got that much of a salary, take the tax out of that, he has enough left over that he can spend the winter in training

and working out and stuff like that. In our day, if you didn't win the World Series, you had to get a job. So when you went to spring training, you were basically starting all over again to get yourself into the finest shape you could for the beginning of the season. And that was before guys routinely lifted weights. I mean, did you work out? Did you do anything to stay in shape?

We were not allowed to lift weights. And we weren't supposed to play basketball or ski or anything like that. And we couldn't play golf during during the season we we lived by all the old wives tales in those days and uh then now you know there's better nutrition there's uh more attention to what you can and cannot do uh how it affects your body toward the game of baseball and uh like and some sports you know if could play golf, you could play hockey. The swing is kind of the same. So anyway, it's a whole different era.

It's not a bad era. In comparison, I would have to say they're even to the times. In our time, Major League Baseball was the top of the hill. Today, Major League Baseball as it is, is the top of the hill. And I think we should all be kind of pleased that it has grown to be the game that it is. And it is the game that is still so very enjoyable to the people of this country. What was your off-season like, Riley? What kind of training did you do? I mean, I came home, probably rested for two weeks, and then got right into lifting and preparing for this season.

So, you know, the four times a week I go to a trainer with a couple other minor league guys and a couple big league guys. Yeah, I mean, it's just basically spending the entire off-season getting ready for the next season. Did you give any consideration to working for the corner, going out and just picking up bodies? I did not, no. Hey, I never got a complaint from my customer.

I was wondering, Riley, this is going back a little bit, but you said that you had recently had sort of a trackman presentation given to you that showed what your fastball is, what your breaking stuff is. And I don't know if that's the first time that you've had that information presented to you. But I know when I think back to when I used to pitch, I just kind of dreamed that I would have had the ability to get my own stuff tracked and looked at. It just seems like it would be fun to dig into. So are you – you said that last season you weren't given none of you were given that much information they didn't want to overwhelm you and maybe things are going to change this year but are you someone who where you just wish that you had more and more

information about yourself or do you think that you'd be vulnerable to just overthinking it i enjoy it you know it's not something i feel like i need but looking at it i think is really cool and kind of lets you think about the game in a different way and um i have one of my teammates he's a good buddy of mine and he uh he kind of does some of that stuff and so i talking to him throughout the season just kind of learning more about it how you know different spin rates and how your spin axis you know and how all that stuff affects your pitches i think uh you know i'm all for it you, getting more information about what my pitches do and how they'll be more successful and when to use them and where to throw it. And

I think that's all going to help. We've talked about money a couple of times, and this is obviously a big topic this off season, lots of discussion about the free agency and how guys aren't getting signed to the contracts they were recently. Now, as you were saying, Johnny, relative to when you were playing, these contracts are all enormous and it's a much bigger business now and bigger attendance and bigger broadcast contracts, just more money coming in. So do you look at this as someone who played before free agency and say, oh, all these guys don't know how good they have it, and maybe there's some bitterness there? Or do you say, hey, this is great, get whatever you can. I wish that we

had been able to. Well, go back to my first year, $6,000 was a pretty handsome salary in those days. So you went with the times. Inflation has come along, a lot of different things. And we were happy with the money we made. We worked hard to earn it. We never knew what anybody else was making. You know, it was kind of like going to bar business, what Ralph Kiner was making. Though we know he was making a hell of a lot more than the rest of us. And stuff like that.

So, no, we didn't make that kind of a comparison. We felt we had a good paying job in an elite situation and we were happy to be there. One thing I realized I should have asked, Riley, have you at any point since you're in the minor leagues, have you been approached by representatives for either big league advance or Pando pooling or any of those companies that offer sort of money up front in exchange for some portion of future earnings? Yeah, I was approached by a couple of those pooling companies and did some thinking about it, but it just didn't really seem like something that I was interested in. I almost felt like it was betting against myself. I don't know. I mean, I think they're interesting concepts,

but it wasn't really for me. And I don't know whether you have seen any of these proposals that have been discussed in the last couple days, Johnny, but there's all this talk of, you know, maybe lowering the mound or moving the mound back or limiting the number of pitchers you can have on a roster at one time or mandating that guys have to face three hitters at least before you remove them. And it's just all kind of to combat the strikeouts

and the velocity and some of the things that we've been talking about. And I wonder, as you said, it's a different game. It's still a great game. Are there ways in which you think it's a less spectator-friendly game because of the lack of contact and all the pitchers coming in and out, or is it just different but equally entertaining in your eyes? Well, the thing about it is you're into the era of enormous contracts, and so the ball club has to generate enough revenue to pay those contracts, and that can only be done by advertising, sponsorship, people in the seats. And so the game has changed into, in some ways, a bit of a show where there's entertainment

that goes on at the ballpark that you never saw in the past. And that's to get more people in there, more concession revenue, things of that nature. So if you're doing, say, $12, $13 a person ahead in concession revenue and you lose 300,000 people because you're not doing well, that's a heck of a lot of money comes out of your thing. So there's a whole bunch of intangibles that go into what a team could afford to pay based on how many people they get and how much sponsorship and how much radio and TV rights they have.

And so that has changed the game. But it has to be if you're going to beat the kind of payrolls that you have now. It has to be if you're going to beat the kind of payrolls that you have now. In between innings where there maybe used to be one advertisement, now there's probably two, sometimes three, to generate revenue. And I think that isn't going to change unless you tell everybody they're going back to 1960 salaries or things like that. So, no, I don't think there's a great deal that could be changed in the game. I do think the pitchers should be more required to pitch a ball within the 30 seconds that

they're allowed to once they get it back. And I do think the batters should be required to stay. You know, last year they had to stay in the batter's box. I don't think that rule was enforced maybe five times the whole year. And I think that part of the actual play of the game can be increased a little bit, but it's not going to increase dramatically. So I think in our day when a ball game went two hours and 15 minutes at the most, you're looking at three-hour games today and it's not going to change.

And I don't see anything that can really dramatically change it. I guess the last thing I should ask is whether you two have divergent or very similar opinions of the pitch clock, which sounds like it is going to be coming to Major League Baseball pretty soon and already exists in the minors. Yeah, Riley, you've been pitching with the pitch clock. So what are your thoughts? I mean, I don't mind it at all. I've always been a fan of having a quick pace.

I mean, whether it's a clock or not, I feel like it keeps the batter uncomfortable. And I'm not a big fan of waiting around a while. So I mean, it's no issue for me. I think it's a good thing. It definitely gives you enough time. It would be different if you felt rushed. But when I'm pitching, I don't feel rushed with the clock. So, I mean, I'm all for it. Yeah. I don't know if guys were taking that long that they needed one when you were playing, Johnny. into play. And I think that's something that should be looked at

as more attention on the part of the umpires on the pitch clock and the batter staying in the batter's box. And you might pick up a few minutes, but it's not going to dramatically change. I don't think the mound is 60 feet, six inches away. That hasn't changed

in probably a century and that's okay. Whoever invented the game of baseball and said the bases should be 90 feet apart had to be a great visionary because that's worked perfectly to this day.

I think there's nothing wrong with the game. It's a different game than when I played it. It's not that dramatically different. It's just in time and in size and possibly the fact that the agents are telling the pitchers, give me strikeouts, I can get you more money. The agent for the batter saying, hit me strikeouts, I can get you more money. The agent for the batters say, hit me home runs, and I can get you more money rather than let's do this thing to win the game first, like hitting behind the runner to second base with a runner at second base

and nobody out, and they had to get to a more scoring position and stuff like that. A little bit of that has changed. But all in all, I don't see much being changed. And change shouldn't be made just for the sake of change. I think if you go to the ballgame today, you should have in the back of the mind you're going to be out there watching this ballgame for three hours. Knowing that going in and seeing the way it's played today,

I wouldn't change a thing. I was also going to ask you what you think about replay, because last time we talked to you, you told us a great story about an umpire who made a bad call but said that he doesn't change his calls, and that was that. Do you wish that you had played an era when bad calls could be changed? You know, the replay, in my mind, has shown over the years they've put it in how good the umpires really are. And, you know, they don't have time to have a team meeting on a call. Boom, boom, you make it.

And every now and then they'll blow one. But what the heck, you know, like they tell people that there was only one perfect man, and even he was crucified. They're going to make mistakes, but they don't make them because they want to make them. They make them trying to make the best call they can. There are occasions where it would come into play on a ball close to, they call it the foul pole, which should be the fair pole because if you hit it, it's a home run. There's times when it's a little difficult to see which side of it was on, things like that.

But getting into a double play to run a being safe at first base because of a missed call, that doesn't happen that often. So I think there's a place for the instant replay, but it should not be used more than just on things that are terribly important. And the last thing I wanted to ask, your niece mentioned to me that there's a book that has been written or is being written

about you and your brother. Is there anything you can share about that? Yeah, Dan Raleigh, who's an excellent writer, wrote a biography book on Ed Nye. The title is Tell Me You're Not the O'Briens. And that was the first words we heard in Seattle when they thought they were going to seize two guys, six, four, and two guys, five, nine. He's two guys, six, four, and two guys, five, nine. My father-in-law, who was the president, he wrote this book. And I wasn't for it. But what will happen if this book ever sees the light of day? Any proceeds from it, I will not make a dime or Ed's widow.

We'll all go to Seattle University's Ed O'Brien Endowment Fund. Ed O'Brien Endowment Fund. That's why I participated in it because Ed and I were able to obtain a scholarship which led to some good things happening afterwards. Hopefully, the proceeds of an endowment fund for the Ed O'Brien Endowment Fund at Seattle U will help somebody else get the opportunity that Ed and I had.

So that's, and, you know, I said to myself, so I wouldn't want to read a book about me. And so far, nobody else does. So we'll see what happens. Well, I think we would. And I think a lot of our listeners would. So there's a market out there. Well, thank you both for joining us. This has been a treat. And Riley, best of luck with your season and career. And I hope that the call-up comes soon sometime for you. And I'm sure that would be really special for both of you. I know that it would be for you, but I'm sure for your grandfather to be able to see that too. It would be definitely for me. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. And Johnny, thank you very much for coming back on. Man, any time. I thank you very much. And Riley, Thank you for having me.

Thanks, Grandpa. All right. That will do it for today. Thanks for listening. Isn't Johnny just the best? If you haven't heard episode 1153, the first time we had him on,

please do yourself a favor and go back and listen to it. He is just a joy, and I hope he is with us for many more years and many more podcast appearances. We've been on a bit of a tight schedule with this week's shows, so we haven't had a chance to banter about a couple other developments. With the Mariners and the Dodgers, MLB finished its investigation of Dr. Lorena Martin's allegations against the Mariners and Jerry DiPoto and Scott Service and Annie McKay specifically.

She had levied accusations of sexism and racism, pretty serious sounding stuff. MLB concluded after a review from a law firm that there was no evidence to corroborate her claims. She subsequently called the investigation itself into question and said that although she was interviewed as part of that process, some of the sources she suggested that they interview were not interviewed. She also noted that the investigator for the law firm was a former MLB lawyer. So this will continue because Martin has sued the Mariners. I don't know what the resolution of that will be or whether we'll ever find out anything else, because even if that's settled, we probably wouldn't hear the details. So that may bring

an end to that story, at least from a public perspective. Mariners had already conducted their own internal review and seemed confident that this would be MLB's finding. Again, it's really hard for an outsider to know the truth in this case. At the same time, we've heard of a few cases that have surfaced from the Dodgers from a few years ago involving sexual assault and stalking by some minor league players. On Gabe Kapler's watch as the Dodgers player development director, the Dodgers opted to keep those cases in-house, probably in at least one case in violation of a newly implemented MLB

rule about reporting such incidents. So there's been a lot of good writing about this. My pal Michael Bauman wrote about it for The Ringer. Kapler has released his own statement on his site about these incidents. Others have questioned how he handled them, which I think is fair in certain respects. Although in this case, too, MLB has investigated and cleared those involved. We will definitely get into all of this in more depth in the Dodgers and Mariners and possibly Phillies team preview podcast, so we'll talk to people who cover those teams about it. I'll just say, though, as a general statement without weighing in on any of these specific cases, I think it's good that these things come to light. I know that every time we hear stories like this, we think, oh, this is the worst, and teams are terrible, and this sport is not handling these matters appropriately, and certainly that is true in some cases. But I think the fact that we know about these incidents at all is itself sort of a sign of progress. I mean, sadly, in a sense, but racism and sexism and assault, obviously not new, more prevalent in the past than in the present, if anything. And for most of baseball history and just history history, we just wouldn't have known about these things. Large swaths of society wouldn't have thought there was any problem with them. So it is progress, and progress is painful, and I don't want to sound like a Pollyanna here who's just putting the most positive spin possible on all of this, but I do think we have to keep in mind, I mean, we're talking about whether the Dodgers violated a rule. In one case, it seems like they did, but that rule was not implemented until 2015, which is not long

ago. So the fact that there was even a guideline in place or an MLB domestic violence policy, these are all very recent innovations. It's unfortunate that they're recent innovations, but I think when we hear about these stories, we should lament them, of course, and do whatever we can to change them and prevent similar incidents from happening or being handled in the same way in the future. But I think the fact that we're discussing them, that is how these things change. Not that this behavior will ever completely cease, but next time one of these incidents arises, maybe it will be handled differently because of the backlash to this news. So that is sort of the silver lining to a bunch of bad situations.

I know it's easy for me to say because I and people like me are typically not the targets of this treatment. I just try to keep that in mind, not just in baseball, but in culture at large. We're just bombarded with so much bad news. culture at large. We're just bombarded with so much bad news. It's not because there's more bad stuff happening for the most part. It's just because we're finding out about it and because we're actually outraged about it instead of sweeping it under the rug. So progress is slower than we'd like, but not non-existent. You can support this podcast by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild, sign up, pledge some small monthly amount, keep us going. The following five listeners have already done so. J. Wade Edwards, david dudley ted miles sam klein and michael underhill thanks to all of you you can

also rate and review and subscribe to effectively wild on itunes and other podcast platforms you can join our facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild please keep your questions and comments for me and jeff coming via email at podcast at vangraphs.com or via the patreon messaging system thanks to dylan higgins for his editing assistance the season preview series will roll on next time we will be talking about the rockies and the pirates i know i know but you should still listen okay those two is probably on our biggest draws but every team deserves its episode in the spotlight. We will talk to you next time. My untrue love For I'm your love Lost John Reilly