Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1433: A Pitcher and Catcher Report

Episode Date: September 20, 2019

Ben Lindbergh and Sam Miller talk to two Atlantic League players with the Somerset Patriots, pitcher Rick Teasley and catcher Yovan Gonzalez, about the experimental rules being tested in the league this season as part of a partnership with MLB. They discuss how Rick and Yovan first heard about the new rules, how players have […]

Ah, I wonder if I could tie the ocean to your knees I wonder if I could tie the ocean to your knees Yeah, I wonder if I could tie the ocean to your knees This is experiment Experiment Hello and welcome to episode 1433 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Sam Miller of ESPN. Hello, Sam. Hey, Ben.

And today we are going to do something that we've been planning to do all season and have teased a couple times. We're going to do an Atlantic League episode. We have talked a bunch of times about all the different rules changes that have been discussed and implemented or ultimately not implemented in the Atlantic League this year. As most of you probably know, the Atlantic League has served as sort of a testing ground in partnership with Major League Baseball. It's been a place to try out some rules changes that are intended to shorten the game or make it more exciting in some way, increase contact, everything from computer-called strike zones to bigger bases to changes in how you have to do a

pickoff move and whether foul bunts on two strikes count as strikeouts and whether you can just run to first whenever you want to if the ball gets away. But we've just been speculating and analyzing from afar. And we have wanted to talk to players who have actually experienced this themselves. And today we are lucky enough to be joined by two of them from Somerset Patriots. One of them has been on the show before. He is Rick Teasley. He is a pitcher and he joined us last December to talk about his improbable feat of striking out Williams Astadillo twice in a Venezuelan Winter League game. Rick, welcome back. Hey, thanks guys. I

appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Good to be back. And we are also joined by one of his catchers, Jovan Gonzalez. Hey, Jovan. Hello. How are you doing? Good. So both of you guys have been around the block a bit in baseball. You've been in affiliated baseball. You've been in the indie leagues. This is your third or fourth season with Somerset for both of you. You've been in foreign leagues. You played in winter leagues. You've been everywhere. You've done everything. But a lot of the stuff you've experienced this season has been new even for you. So I'd love to hear a little bit about how you first found out what was happening this season and what you thought at the time, whether any aspect of it was appealing or whether you were worried about it, whether you

considered not going. So walk us through that. I guess, Rick, you can go first. So it was about three weeks before season started when the news kind of broke and it broke on a different circuit. I think it was Baseball America broke the news that there are all these rule changes. And of course, immediately I tried to get in contact with pitching coach and our manager just to try and see if it was true. And it seemed like it was almost news to those guys as well. So it was very weird.

The rules that we were hearing were very weird and didn't really know how to feel about it. Just kind of tried to wait to get more info. And as the info came in, you know, obviously the initial reaction was pretty angry that we found out when we found out. And also, you know, not sure if some of these rules were actually going to be implemented, like the 62 feet and all that stuff. But yeah, just tried to gather as much information as we could and see what was real and what wasn't yeah jovan what did you think when you heard i mean i just like you say papa just find out in a short period of time like you know so many rules and i actually have no time like i just came in and i was already in the second half they

started so i don't know nothing about it. I didn't know that the rules were going to be put in play. Was it appealing at all that there would be a lot of attention on the league and that there would be track men and so there would be

data if big league teams were looking at you guys? Was that a selling point? Well well that was what they were trying to sell initially and part of that is like okay that's great like now teams will know like i told you guys in my last interview i don't know what my spin rate is teams will know that information but to the cost of what some of these rules obviously you can there's now pick off rules where guys can just take second base standing up, basically. It's been very tough because to a certain point, you're trying to put up as good numbers as you can to get out of here, get signed to go overseas or back to MLB clubs.

So I feel like those have always played a huge role. These other numbers, I don't know what kind of role they would play. So we just kind of had to see how it played out this year. So I imagine that part of the frustration is simply not being involved in the decision at all about basically the sort of message that it sends that this is a lab and that you're the rats. But part of the frustration, I imagine, is also just that with no lead in, no prep time, you don't have a chance to kind of adjust or practice or prepare for these changes.

If you had had a lot more time to get used to them, do you think it would have been easier to make the transition? Would it have been less frustrating? Are these things that a player can, I guess that's the question, are these things that a player can adapt to after he's already been playing baseball for 20 years and professionally for five or 10? I do believe that it is, you can adapt to some of these things for sure. If you have time to work on them and practice them, righties, I know have to step all the way off for pickoffs. Lefties have to step off for pickoffs. That would be something that would be very easy to work on, but you would need time to work on it to get used

to doing it in a game. So there's things like that, but certain, certain other things like, you know, they, they still talk about moving the mound back. That would be tough. The track man zone, none of us really knew what to expect with that. And being able to throw a few bullpens into it before actually being thrown into a game with it would have been good. So there's just certain aspects where, yes, you could train to be more prepared for it. But, you know, doing it on the fly has been most of the frustrations for all of the players,

whether it's pitchers or hitters in this league. I think Jovan would agree with that. Yeah. Was there any organized pushback or was I mean, are you guys in a position as you know, as as basically independent contractors where you are sort of like powerless to do anything? Can you I mean, was I imagine there was groaning. Was there any any pushback to like sort of at least limit what they were going to do with you guys? Yeah, I accept everything like that. Even though I was a little confused by the rules and not in the same place with them, I was already here and I signed a contract, so I needed to play.

I was not going to play. One of the early things that was implemented that affected both of you, I guess we'll go over each of these rules, but the removal of mound visits, I wonder how that has affected each of you, if at all. Rick, have you missed that? Has it cost you anything? Well, I'm very much, I like to keep to myself and be in my own head.

There's a lot of times where I don't like being visited on the mound. So I think I like that to an extent. I liked that. But being able to talk to your catcher, me being able to talk to Jovi in the middle of a game briefly, quickly, not having that has definitely affected things. I know you can go up and switch signs if you think guys are trying to pick signs or something like that. But for the most part, not being able to talk to your catcher, you know, I think they could change that to where, you know, visits from the catcher should be allowed.

And I know Jovi agrees with that. Yeah. What do you think of that? How do you communicate with your pitchers if you can't go out and talk to them? I really can't. You know, I'm just trying to like coach from my stand, from my catching position. I'm trying to tell them or mimic whatever I think they're doing and just mention it so I can talk to them. That's what I don't like about it because it's just kind of like you get to be good with the relationship in umpire, pitcher, and catcher. That's the key for me right there, just the relationship.

So do you talk more between innings and say, here's what we're going to do with this guy and that guy, since you know you can't talk during the inning? Well, we actually do that before the game. We kind of go through a little report, scouting report. The thing is, whatever happens in the game, there's nothing i can do to help my pitcher like to we sometimes we use it to like break a little rhythm a little bad rhythm we

had we used to like call come out and give the pitcher a little breather like right now it's just like none of that so i feel it's just affecting how good a catcher can be it's definitely on the pitcher to slow the game down himself. Or, yeah, you'll have to signal out to me certain, you know, body movements or body keys to say, hey, make sure you're staying close. Or, hey, make sure rather than calling time and saying, hey, man, relax, slow it down. You know, we got this next guy up. We know what we're trying to do with him. Let's go after him this way.

It's all like, boom, that inning is going to happen. And you can't talk about it until after that inning's over with. So that's why it's a little more difficult. I've never really thought about that, but the visit to the mound is kind of more of a catcher skill. Like I've always thought of it

as just sort of pitcher and catcher doing that together. But really it's usually it's the catcher who instigates that walk out to the mound. It's the catcher who sees something. It's probably the pitcher a lot of times doesn't even feel like he needs a visit, but the catcher needs to. And also the catcher is responsible for maybe a dozen pitchers, whereas the pitcher is only going to throw to maybe two catchers a year. And so maintaining that relationship throughout a start when he's got so many different pitchers is probably really important for the catcher.

So did it feel like it was taking something away from your tool belt, Yobi, that you as a catcher couldn't do that? A hundred percent, sir. A hundred percent. I got a hundred percent with that because we are like a little coach for many pitchers, you know what I mean? Like out there, I'm going to be the guy for him. Like I'll be the guy like I work every day with him, and I know what he's good at, and I know what he's struggling with.

I'll be able to see that, but right now I cannot say anything because of this. So I 100% agree that they took something out of him. So, yeah, we've talked about in the past, they talk about Buster Posey being able to control a pitching staff and really, really be in touch with his pitchers and work with them. And it definitely, Jovi is a guy that's one of his biggest skills is being able to work with a pitching staff and being able to tell a pitcher what he's doing wrong and fix it during a game. And it's taking that skill away from that position from guys who are very good at doing that.

So what was the attitude like in the clubhouse kind of as the season went on? Were people upset at first? Did it affect morale on the team? And then did people get used to it? And then when the new changes happened in the middle of the year, did that start another round of people grumbling about things? I mean, did it affect kind of the atmosphere around the league this season? I think it has. I think it has. It's pretty much you hit it on the head with what you said there.

There was frustration at first about the rules happening. And then as they're being implemented and you're seeing the results and you're seeing numbers slip and you're seeing, you can see the frustration not only within your own team, but you watch the other team just, you know, it's the same way with some of the pitches that are called strikes or balls. You can tell there's a lot of built-up frustration. It's been a long season, and as the season goes on, it starts to get worse and worse. So, yeah, it's been a strange year for the league, I would say.

Yeah, it's been completely strange. I think when we find out, nobody was upset. It was more like surprise about this rule because we all played this game long enough to know that a machine may be not be ready to take over our game and uh it's been just awkward it's been an awkward year like i feel like there's no people going through feelings just because you can't do anything about it I feel like you cannot work out to get better I feel like you just can't

how are you going to beat the track man sometimes instead of going I feel like most of the me this season is more my thought is being like let's beat the track man instead of just like go out there and beat the team

is the track man beatable? I don't know if he's beatable track man instead they just like go out there and beat the team is the track man beatable i don't know if he's bit right now it's not because maybe maybe a little maybe maybe next year we have a little more experience and maybe we can like trying to or maybe we get like something to beat the track man but right now it's just like i'm praying everything i'm praying that the track man but right now it's just like i'm praying i'm praying that the track man does things take away your at bat or yeah take away in that bat or or take away a w or or take away a good like position on the bat like you need to oh and out of a sudden you want to be in tool but that slider little low the trackman called it and you already won one so it's just like you constantly changing your approach so it's just for me i feel like every

time i go to hit i give away one pitch because it's going to do one at least one time it's going to be wrong and i know it for a fact i know my song and i've been playing for 20 years this game so i know so what what is what is the pitch that like like when you're um maybe when you're on defense when you're pitching and you're catching what is the pitch that trackman gives you that umpires didn't give you if you could like hit that spot with that pitch every single time like what could you what could you take advantage of the system with on defense? It would be that curve on top of the court. It doesn't have to go.

It can actually bounce in front of me. Or I almost caught it. My knee is touching the ball before it bounces, and I get that call for a strike. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it's not right yet. I feel like we just, instead of just like, all right, we're going to do it right now. Let's go.

I feel like we should have tested a little better before to just put it out there like that. Like, hey, we're going to do it and it's mandatory and that's it. You know, like, I don't know. That's the way I think. Do you think it's actually inaccurate? Like, it's not tracking the pitches right? Or do you think it's just that these pitches are technically strikes by the definition of the strike zone, but they weren't usually called strikes in the past? Well, to be honest, I mean, to be honest, I've seen pitches that should be called strikes, balls,

and balls called strikes. It's just not consistent. Like I said, it's been really inconsistent. I think it can get better because having a trackman on, and I had a couple days with a trackman off, the trackman makes the umpires

a little better. But the trackman will call pitches that nobody in earth will call for a strike yeah i might make myself clear like like you see a track man like i said that slider that top slider that just like just below the sun that is a great take for a hitter. Everybody goes, hey, great eye. That's called for a strike 95% of the time. And it's not even a good presentation from the catcher. The catcher is not even catching the ball well. He's going off his hands trying to catch this ball,

and that's what has happened to me too. I'm going away from my tan, my good presentation from the umpire. I'm just going away with it. I'm just catching pitches that I know. I don't even look good catching it because they're so off and they're getting called strikes. So Rick, do you try to throw those pitches more often?

Have you changed your pitch selection or location to take advantage of this? For me, I'm a low arm slot lefty with a cutter, a decent change up, and I like to pitch in. So I don't have a big curve ball. I'm not a big tall guy that throws from over the top. And that's definitely the type of pitcher that the track men will favor. Guys who throw over the top, guys who may not, they just kind of spray the ball around the zone. They're not trying to hit a spot. Guys with a big curve ball, they'll either flip it in and it looks like it's about neck high and the catcher catches it about at the chest and it's a strike or a guy will almost bounce a breaking ball and it's a strike. But if you don't have that big breaking

ball, good luck pitching to the track, man. Because anything with side to side movement, I'm almost convinced that there's no, that they have told us the black does not count as the plate. And I'm pretty sure that in and out to guys, you have to get the entire baseball in the strike zone. Cause there are probably four or five pitches a game where I feel like I'm splitting the plate in half, you know, belt high with a cutter and it's getting called a ball. And so it's, it's tough from that aspect because I'll throw two of those that are good called balls. And I'll try to throw a two Oh change up that almost bounces and they'll call that a strike. And you feel like you throw the change up to the next hitter and it's a

ball. And so it's, it changes from hitter to hitter based off of height, obviously, but also based off of what their height is inputted in the system. Some of the hitters heights are different than they actually are within track men. And then it also changes a ballpark to ballpark and it changes day to day.

One day, you know, you feel like you're, Oh, it's actually, it's actually given you the inside half of the plate. And then the next day it's like, Oh no, it's not giving you an inside half, but you'll get a little bit off outside to a righty. So it's just the inconsistency was something we didn't expect because it's a machine. But I would say by about the fourth or fifth inning, you kind of know what's not going to be called a strike and what might be called a strike to certain hitters. But it's just the fact that you kind of expected it. And I guess everybody kind of expects it.

Oh, that's what it is. There's the front of the plate. It's a box. That's what it's going to be all game, every park, every hitter. And it's just been so inconsistent that you'd almost,

you'd just rather have an umpire calling it. So given that there is no umpire, like your body language doesn't matter in the way that it does when there's a human umpire and there's no point in like sort of like fighting for calls against a robot or anything like that. And given that like both teams are kind of going through this experiment, when a call is really surprising

or when a crazy pitch goes for a strike or vice versa, are you like making eye contact with the other team? Are you guys rolling your eyes together? Is this like kind of a shared experience between two teams? Absolutely. I take my hand most of the time when that happened. I'm taking my hand even when I'm hitting. No, when I'm hitting, I'm fired up.

When I'm hitting, I'm fired up. When I'm hitting, I want to go crazy. But when I'm catching,'m fired up when i'm hitting i want to i want to go crazy but but when i'm catching i'm shaking my head so that's like it's more about i want to say like frustration because i really take pride in my catching and it's just like this is not even close guys like this is we got we got players here that play in the big leagues. We got players, AAA. This is the league that we are high-level players, like AA, AAA, big leagues, Japan, Mexico. I mean, all around the world, good baseball, like really good baseball. And all of a sudden, we got a machine calling strikes or calling pitches for people that are being the highest level in the game.

Like they didn't know what a strike and they know what it means. Baseball forever. Yeah, it's very much a shared experience. You see the other team kind of laugh at a call or I've turned around and seen an umpire just shaking his head, a base umpire shaking his head, laughing. around and seen an umpire just shaking his head a bass umpire shaking his head laughing and it's just it has definitely and that's why that's why i say it's been such a weird years because you just kind of we're all going on this journey together and hey what's going to happen today what are we going to see today that we've never seen before let's let's see here we go and it's just why it's been so strange that's what i mean when i said like every time i wake up

i'm not like i'm not thinking about, all right, bro, these guys will pound him in, and then we put him away with a slider. When he's like, no, let's see what the track man is today. And then we make a joke. And it's just like, now my pitcher, instead of worrying about the headers, he's worrying about theters and the track man. So that's been a part of baseball in the past just because umpires are different and probably more different in the Atlantic League than they are in the big leagues.

So is it more inconsistent than that? Or is it just that it's not as good as it should be because you're expecting it to be perfect because it's a machine? Well, for me, I talk a lot with umpires. That really doesn't change that much with the umpire. But when I have umpires agreeing with me and we talk and have conversations, and all of a sudden I ask i can't ask whoever i'm filing hey how many moves you have today how many times you think the track man is today and they're going to say more multiple maybe multiple calls like we're talking about 20 15 calls like that's

that's a lot of pitches that's almost an inning of balls or back calls you know so it's just like i said it's just like it's just inconsistent because it's like it changes so much it's like like kiki said changes every at bat changes in every field whatever for the deflation six five guys and then you face it six food and it's just the difference is so big that you don't even know. Yeah, I would say there's consistency with an umpire knowing you're going to pitch in, he's going to call the inside striker, he'll call the low strike, and both teams know that. All the hitters be ready for that inside strike, he's going to call it,

where that's going to be consistent. And maybe some of them are balls, but some of them are strikes. The track man, you don't know from hitter to hitter what it's going to be consistent and maybe some of them are balls but some of them are strikes the the track man it's you know you don't know from hitter to hitter what it's going to be and it just that's why it's so inconsistent is because you just it's it's it's and it's in its beginning stages we all knew that and i'm sure it'll get better i'm sure they'll polish it up but yes it's just from hitter to hitter there is no consistency on the up on the down uh the in the out you're just not sure you're just throwing up there and hoping that he swings. Jovi, do you try

to persuade the umpires to overrule the system? Is that something they can ever do if it's really wrong? No, they're getting in trouble if they overrule. That's what they say. No, the trackman is the final voice. Like I say, I'm having umpires

calling a third strike for a stri say, I'm having umpires like calling a third strike for a striker. You know the umpire gets fired up on that time. That's your time to time. Bring that guy up.

Ah, hiya! And I, and I got umpires like calling the third strike like, strike, strike.

And I'm like, what? I have, I have umpires that wait close to two seconds to make a call. Like, all of a sudden, it's a pitch that you want to call for a strike

because it's a good pitch on the black. We don't get in black. We don't have black no more. And the umpire is waiting for the call because he knows it's a strike. And all of a sudden, you hear like a couple seconds after you hear ball. And the first thing you say to him, oh my God, and he's like, yep, and my chin has a throw ball.

So he's just, he's controlling the game. I feel like he's controlling the game. The track man is controlling the game. You know, I've talked to other players, and I've heard so many stuff too. And all of a sudden, the track man, like I said, I think they stimulate a little bit. So all of a sudden, the trackmen, one of them will be really open. Balls, high balls, long strikes, low, high strikes.

And all of a sudden, there's pitches right in the middle that are not getting called. So I feel like we just this is like i don't know i feel like if not wrong it's just too inconsistent for like to have it so the consistency problem i think everybody would agree is like a serious flaw and that theoretically if it i mean it needs to get better it needs to be consistent that's the whole promise of it is that it's going to be consistent. But part of it too, seems to be that it doesn't call pitches the way that umpires have called pitches. Like Rick, you mentioned, if a pitcher is working inside a lot, if that's where he works, then you might expect to get a little more on that part of the plate or that curve ball down at the bottom of the zone that

is essentially impossible to hit but might be technically a rulebook strike. It seems like nobody really wants that pitch to be called or maybe the 3-0 auto strike, that sort of thing. So do you think that there is, if it were consistent, if they calibrated it right from day to day, park to park, batter to batter, but the strike zone itself was just different because the rulebook strike zone is different than the the real life strike zone has traditionally been would it still be something that would be

really frustrating do you think you'd get used to it would we would we eventually get used to that curveball at the bottom of the zone or is it just that the strike zone the rule book strike zone is is not the strike zone that the players actually want. I think if it was consistent at every park to every hitter and you knew exactly, if I put this pitch at his knees, it's going to be a strike. If I put it at his chest, it's going to be a strike. If I throw that cutter in that cuts and catches the plate, it's going to be a strike. If it was like that consistently, I don't think anybody could complain. And that's kind of what a lot of us expected. It was for me as a pitcher, my favorite rule that was actually going to be changed was there was going to be a computer calling balls and strikes.

So now, you know, you don't get, you know, messed up on anything. It's either a ball or it's a strike, right? We all expected it to be, boom, to a tee, consistent. And that's all we want is consistency, right? But, you know, you throw one game here, you throw another game in another park and throw in different hitters and you're realizing pretty quick, this isn't the same zone day to day, pitch to pitch, batter to batter. So that's the part that's been frustrating.

But yeah, like you said, once it's polished two years down the road, this could be something they use in the big leagues if it's reading every pitch correctly or at least 99% of the pitches correctly. It would be something that would be great, I believe, because of the consistency. And Jovi, we talked about how the lack of mound visits has affected your job and your ability to add value in that way. But the trackman zone has also taken away your ability to steal strikes, expand the zone by framing, receiving the pitches in a certain way.

And I wonder if that's something you're upset about, if you miss that and how it has affected how you catch. I miss it so much. I miss it so much. Yeah. I was talking to Justin when I was with that a couple of days ago because it was one day that the track man wasn't working. So it was such day that the track man couldn't it wasn't working so and it was such a

good game i i appreciate everything i did and it was like oh my god i missed it because like i said presentation there's people in the business that get paid just presentation just with presentation like catching the bow well putting the good view to the umpire. That's what makes a catcher great. Like, what I feel about track men, it's like you can have a shortstop and put him to catch. You can have an outfielder and put him to catch. You can have whoever, because it's not more framing. It's not more like a relationship with the umpire.

Like, learn what you're doing. It's just like, with your own partner, like, knowing what you're doing. It's just like, with a track man, I feel like, whatever is a strike, is a strike. Because it's, it's a song right there,

so you don't matter how you catch it. So, press and take and take away. So, I feel like, whoever can catch, if track man is on, you can have,

whoever to catch. Because they'll, they'll just catch it. Yeah. They'll be catching. They won't be catching they'll be catching they'll be just catching I feel like their ability to try to be a catcher

is about how good you frame the ball, how good you can steal a strike how you communicate with your pitcher call timeout, how to know when your pitcher needs a break your pitcher, call timeout, how to know when your pitcher needs a break. And you just call timeout, go up there, I'm just checking on you. That's the relationship that builds catcher and pitcher.

And to be honest, that's the big key of a winning team, you know, of a successful team. Communication, pitcher and catcher is key. Communication, ump, pitching and catching is key. Communication, umpire and catcher is key for winning games. It's been like that. Like you said, I feel like we're just used to it. So it's like, maybe he's right because we never tried it and this is the first time trying it, but I'm not used to the wrong parts. Yeah. Have you changed your catching technique because of that?

Do you still, just out of habit, present pitches the same way, or do you try to get in position to throw, let's say, and not even worry about how you catch the pitch? I think sometimes that I just change stuff. For a bunt, if I know a guy is bunting, I'm just change stuff. Like, for a bunt, if I know a guy's bunting, I'm not worried about framing the ball for a strike.

So I'm like, on the side, all turn, on my side, I'm ready to get that bunt. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to attack more

instead of like, stay square, see the ball, frame it for a strike, and take it. No, I'm just like, wait for the bunt

and catch it. You don't have to frame it or not because if it's a strike, it's a strike. If it's a ball, it's a ball. So I'm not worried about the presentation. So yeah, it takes a while. I'm changing. I change my framing with no framing. Like, okay, there is no

need to frame anymore. Yeah. Well, one way, I guess, in which your job has gotten harder is that you have to worry about batters running to first base if a ball gets by you. So I know there was one game in July where you were playing New Britain and you were catching and the hitter on the other team, Darren Ford, a ball got by you and went to the backstop and he just refused to run, even though he could have gotten to first base and it was a scoreless game. And his whole team, I think, came to the top step of the dugout and applauded because he was refusing to run. Is this something that happens often? Is this like the least popular thing or do batters usually take advantage of that when they can?

I haven't seen, I think I've seen it in as many games as we've played. I've seen it two or three times with probably a hundred opportunities. So yeah, players aren't doing that. Guys aren't giving up their at bat to do that. Because like I said, we're all trying to put up numbers and prove that we can get out of here and play at a higher level or another level. And yeah, guys, just and it's it's a bad. I don't know if you're if you're batting and ball goes to the backstop, you still first. I mean, you almost feel you know how that would feel. You know, you want to beat the guy you want. I want to compete.

You want to compete. You want to hit. It kind of counts as I don't even think it counts as a walk. It just counts almost like no A.B. Like no at bat. You're just on first base. I think that they changed it to a walk. Right, Sam't even think it counts as a walk. It just counts almost like no AB, like no at bat. You're just on first base. I think they changed it to a walk, right, Sam? They changed it at some point?

At one point they changed it to a walk, but I don't know. They changed it at least once. I don't know. I think they changed it to a non-at bat because once they started changing it to walks, pitchers were like, so you're telling me I can throw an OO change up in the dirt for a swing and a miss and it gets by the catcher that guy can take first base yeah so i think they changed it out of that because it's not fair to give a guy a walk for that so yeah it's just been that's been the weirdest rule and at least uh least effective i guess because guys just aren't doing it and so

what was it like for the two or three times that you did say it, was there like, is it considered like bad form to do it at all? Would you do it in the ninth of a tie game? Is that, it feels really weird to have this really ambiguous rule out there that is technically on the books, but that most players aren't gonna do. So when the couple guys who did do it, did do it,

like do people yell at them? Yeah, it was like in the ninth inning a tie game a run that you had to have late in the game you know you're trying to be unselfish as a hitter you know our coaching staff basically told hitters like you don't have to do this you know i'm never going to get mad at you for not doing this but you know game on the line think about it you know if you think you can do it you know go for it but yeah it's always and when it does happen of course the team that does it they're all going nuts and laughing and cheering and the other team just kind of smirking and shaking their head it's just kind of like

the umpires are laughing it's it's a weird it's definitely a weird rule fans are going nuts so i don't yeah it's just a strange it's definitely a strange rule and it actually does come into play. That is the weirdest possible thing you could describe to me in baseball where, where it is only sometimes used and usually ignored and everybody has no idea whether it's going to be taken advantage of. And it obviously helps your your team and yet nobody on your team cares if you do it that it feels like more than anything else turns the season into this farcical thing where like nothing really seems to matter yeah and that's what we were telling you guys about how awkward how strange of a season it is it's because there's so much of that and every game i mean even when they don't go a ball could kind of trickle away from a catcher a little bit and the you know the dugout that's batting

will start yelling go go go go go and laugh so it's just kind of that's been a rule i don't i don't know how long that'll stick around but it's been kind of that's that's added to the strains is that on your mind every pitch jovi are you like trying to block everything because you know that could happen yeah i just gotta be ready i mean right there it just keeps me trapped like i gotta be like ready to go and i'm that's what i'm changing like so on the batter on the hitter gets as soon as the hitter get in there i'm ready to block that's a little strange rule too but because nobody could steal first but it's all right i mean that's a little action a little extra action action. They took us our framing, they changed the pickoff rule so that now you have to step off the rubber

before you can attempt a pickoff. And since then, the stolen base rate has just exploded by like, I don't know, 70% or more. So I'd like to hear about that for you, Rick, I guess just about how difficult it's been to adjust to that different motion. And then I'll ask Jovi about just trying to keep up with all the runners who are trying to steal. Yeah, well, guys are definitely getting bigger leads. And when you're just watching games,

when you're watching guys pitch, you're just seeing righties have no chance to hold a guy over. And if a lefty has never worked on his snap pickoff move, he's got no chance. And hey, if you want to pick off multiple times in a row as a lefty, good luck because you're going to wear down your arm doing that because you're basically throwing from a standstill position. It's like throwing from your knees as hard as you can over to first base, you know, 70 feet, whatever it is. So that's difficult. And I mean, I found out about that rule between warming up for a game and going out for the

national anthem after the home plate meeting uh our manager came back and he goes up they just told me uh you can't pick the first unless you step off I said what he said oh and by the way you can't do the inside move to second base either so I'm like okay so what now a single is just going to be an automatic triple how am I going to give up three or less how am I going to have a quality start tonight and uh yeah since then like guys you are because that's what it is guy can hit a single steal second steal third on two pitches and what what is jovi gonna do to stop it i gotta try and pick this guy off but i can't keep his lead small because he knows i have to step off to do it so it's tough for catchers because they can't throw anybody out they have no time it's tough for pitchers because you know you're giving

up a single and you might as well just balk them over to third. It'll be quicker. That's just been one of the toughest rules to even deal with at all for pitchers and catchers. Do you try to throw over? Do you do back picks, Jovi? Can you do anything? Yeah, I like to do back picks. This year, I've done it

way more because like Kisly said, it takes such a big lead. Actually actually i've been really successful picking guys back picking guys instead of throwing out a second i think i've been more successful backing guys at first then throwing them out at second so it's just like but for me kenji is the lead i've been throwing from my knees a lot this year too. I feel like every time, like I used to have it like in the back of my pocket.

Every time they had like a good jump, I'm going to throw from my knees. But now it's just like every jump is a good jump. So I feel like my normal throwing position to second is from my knees. I've been doing that like 90%, 85-90% of the time this year.

I throw guys out. I was just looking at this. You don't have a stolen base yourself since 2012 when you were in the Midwest League. Have you thought about going? I thought so many times about going. So many times.

I don't know. I feel like it's been so long that I don't need to. But, I mean, he's right there for me. And actually, I've taken three chances this year and two foul balls. And then the other one was a walk. And then the other one was a walk. But I'm actually trying to go. I'm actually taking, and I'm telling you, I'm a slow runner, man. And I'm actually, and i'm and i'm telling you i'm a slow runner man so like

and i'm actually like seeing myself have a chance and so that's something that obviously makes it a lot harder to be a catcher a lot harder to be a pitcher and i'm sure they knew this when they put it in place and i don't know whether they thought enough about the balance between offense and defense and all that, but I'm sure they did it because they thought, oh, well, this might make the game more, more exciting for fans. It might make it faster pace. It might be, you know, I mean, we're going to have Jovi running for goodness sake. Like there's something to be said for having a game that's lively enough that you're attempting

three stolen bases. So do any of these things beyond the frustration of what it's like for you on one side of the ball, are any of them things that you think, yeah, no, I kind of see how this might work for the game as a whole, might work for the viewing experience, might work for some other aspect of the game where there is some positive to it? I mean, I think there is positive because I think the track might can get better. And if that gets better, that's the rule I would keep.

Yeah, because you cannot, I feel like you cannot take the old rules. Track might is okay. Track might can be perfect. It can be perfect. And we love it. Who doesn't love it?

But I feel like Stevie Ferris of that is just like too much. Like two strikes, months. You got like, I strike out last time. Last game I played, I bumped for a foul ball four times. Like two strikes, I'll foul a ball off. And then in all three, I foul another one off. I mean, that's just like, I'll foul a ball off. And then in 0-3, I foul another one off. I mean, that's just like, I don't know. But I think trackball will help the game just like be more out there,

more homers, more lean, more run drives, hitters, stolen bases. Like everything is getting better for baseball. I feel like teachers and coaches are just like, you know. But I feel like he's going to help baseball. Trackman, if he gets better, baseball will get better.

Actually, it can help the league. What about you, Rick? Is there anything about watching the games that has been beyond the frustration or beyond the confusion or the way it's been implemented where you've looked at it and thought, this is actually kind of fun? I could see maybe the three batter minimum, I think would be effective just to, you know, we talk about speeding the game up. That would definitely speed the game up, not allowing pitching changes every batter or two late in the

game. You know, some of the bases being bigger, I don't know if that's even made a difference at all but uh some of the yeah it's just tough i i sound so negative on this phone call about all these rule changes just because i think we're all frustrated with how they've gone and you know it's the beginning stages of most of them and i think they'll tweak and change things and they'll tweak and change the track man and it'll be better but that yeah once they once they polish change the track man, and it'll be better. But that, yeah, once they polish up the track man, I really do think it will help at an MLB level. But they just, I got to see the data. I got to see the strike zone.

Maybe put the zone on the scoreboard where both teams know where the pitch missed. So stuff like that. But they're testing this stuff, and we knew that. Like we talked about in the beginning, we just didn't have much notice. And I think guys would have been a lot less frustrated if they knew what they were getting into before they signed to comply yeah so that part of that is that that communication and and involving you know maybe involving you guys a lot more in this i i have to admit i kind of like weird things and so there's there's part of this that i think oh i'm glad that they're not afraid to try new things as long as it's implemented correctly.

And as long as they're kind of good ideas, the right ideas, like the running to first thing from the start, it was sort of seemed like that was a disaster. But I do like, at least I like that they're thinking like the game can be tweaked and that certain behaviors might be incentivized a little bit more. So if they keep going with this sort of broad experiment of trying new things, how would you recommend that they just do it differently in years two, three, four and onward? I would say let players know early on, you know, guys start signing in December. They start picking where they're going to go to play their season. They decide that in December to get a roster spot, to have a spring training invite. And I think all the rules need to be laid out right there in December so that we know.

I mean, I signed my contract in early January, and I think I found out in late March, mid-March, what was going on. And it's just tough because if you didn't want to be a part of it, if they were actually moving the mound back to 62 feet and I was out, I was not going to do it. And at that point, what are you going to do? Call a few teams and see who still has a rock. You know, you kind of take whatever's left in their salary cap. You got to just sign for that and play for, you know, you guys know minor league baseball players don't make much already.

So it's just, you get put in that position. That's really tough. Yep. Better communication. I would say better communication because what is i feel like what is what is like i think everybody's playing with this so even and i like the fact that like you know companies might get better in the game but i think the picture will be better in player points of view just Rick said. So you both said better communication,

but neither of you sort of said that it was important that you be involved in the decision itself, that they consult with players on what sorts of things they should try, which seems to me like a pretty good idea. Is it not as important to you? Are you willing to kind of just go out on the field and play whatever the game is that the league lays out for you as long as you have kind of some time to prepare and get

used to it? Or is it really important that players to some degree are involved in deciding what the sport is going to look like that year? I think it's very important to involve the players. And that's the reason I didn't say that is because, honestly, it hasn't seemed like they've even considered consulting with players. It's something that, at this point, hasn't even crossed my mind that it's even going to be. I feel like you've got to let the players know because the players are the ones that put the show out there.

We are the guys that are going out there to play the game. And, of course, we are the players. Yeah, it's important. Like, we had a meeting with the president of the league, and now I have this big league guy just going back and forth to the president of the league. Like, did you guys think about that? Did you guys thought about that? And I was like, oh, my God.

Because it's true. Like, I played the game. I know what's up. And all of a sudden, you brought these rules. Nobody knew about it. You guys might know about it a long time ago and nobody mentioned it.

But like I said, communication is really important. And more with the players. You got to let the players know what's going on with the league. What was that guy's biggest argument? He was a big league guy with a lot of big league time.

And he was saying basically, did you even ask baseball players, any players in this league or anybody that's played baseball, if they thought it would be good for baseball to steal first base or not be able to pick off? And, you know, that's the thing. They didn't. And the response was basically, it's not up to us.

They signed this deal. It's up to the MLB. They're going to implement whatever they want, and we're going to play it. And so it's not an option for us to be a part of the decision-making. We'd just like to know what the rules are going to be before we sign the contract. And I think MLB signed a three-year deal with the Atlantic League. So presumably this stuff is going to happen again next year, at least some of it, or maybe they'll try new things. So having been through this experience once, do you think you would be interested in

going back? Do you think many players will be hesitant to go back next year? Or is it just that for so many guys, it's the best option financially and competitively, so you just kind of do it regardless? Yeah, it's definitely the best option because of other overseas jobs and MLB jobs. At the same time, seeing how it's happened this year with the abruptness of the rule changes and, you know, like second half, we didn't know there were going to be new rules in the second half. And it was just, hey, welcome back. Enjoy your break. These are the new rules. And, you know, going through that once is enough for, I think, a lot of guys to be like, you know what? I don't want to do that again. i don't want to see what they're going to do you know maybe they'll tell us in december what's going on but then you know three weeks in the season they'll introduce another six rule changes

that are crazy and just seeing how they've done it already it doesn't seem like it matters whether or not the players know what's going on and they're already here they're here you know make them do it so i think a lot of guys they're going to have trouble finding a lot of guys that they want to play in this league next year with the way they went about the rule changes this year. That's my opinion. I'm not saying the league will go downhill or none of that, but I think they will lose a couple of players just because of that.

So the last thing I wanted to ask is about that one rule that did not get implemented much to your relief, I guess, the mound distance rule. And Rick, you just said that if that had happened, you would have left. So I'm curious about why that is and what you think the effects of that would be. Because we're all here, like I've said a million times, to get out and to try and go to Asia, MLB. And all those leagues pitch from 60 feet, 6 inches. So to come and pitch where it's 62 feet, 6 inches, I don't know. I tried to do the math on how much more reaction time a hitter will have. It basically turns a 90-mile-an-hour fastball into about an 84-mile-an-hour fastball. Yeah, there could be more depth, but it gives them also more time to see the spin on the ball. I thought about that for days and weeks and really said, you know, would I want to be a part of that?

And I just came up now. It's not going to do anything for me at this point in my career, turning 29 next year, to be a part of a mound move back and just to see what happens to the pitcher's arms or to see how it plays to your stuff. It's just something that maybe if I was 22, I would want to try it if that's what was going to happen in baseball. But at the same time, I think it's going to be hard for the MLB to ever get the players union to vote yes on that. So it's a change that they're going to do that I don't think will ever happen, that I don't think will impact my career in a positive way. I think it will actually impact me in a negative way. So it's something that I don't think will ever happen, that I don't think will impact my career in a positive way. I think it will actually, actually impact me in a negative way. So it's something

that I won't do. And I, I, you know, a lot of guys will say, Oh, I won't do it. I won't do it. And they might, but I really do think there'll be a high percentage of guys that are just at this point in their careers when they'd be in the Atlantic league with MLB experience already, you know, approaching 30 or over 30, that just won't be a part of that. Huh? So I'm curious, Jovi, you're a hitter, and so you would benefit from it in that way. And what if it were everywhere all at once? And what if it were, you know, six inches or a foot instead of a foot and a half, something more minor, just because, you know, we are seeing guys throwing harder and harder, and we're seeing bigger and bigger pitchers who are you know releasing the

ball close to the plate and we're seeing more and more strikeouts so you know you can see how it might be a good idea if it were everywhere all at once and if it were just you know a little bit at a time so what do you guys think about that i agree with that what about you yo i agree man i agree 100 if it was everywhere all at once and everybody was doing it, then that's just baseball. I don't think my trial will agree with the machine calling a strike. I don't think my trial will want to bunt in two strikes. I don't think my trial would want to steal first after a first pitch wild pitch. would have won a still first after the first pinch wild pitch like you're gonna pay 400 million dollars to a guy that for one pitch it can be a first base you know for one wild catch that guy

want to hit a moonshot you know what i mean like i want to make the fans just go wild and i don't know actually like i said everybody got wild when the first guy, Tony Thomas, stole the first base. It was crazy. Everybody was cheering and all that stuff. But is that real baseball? I don't know. I'm open-minded to a change, but I'm 30. I'm about to be 30 now.

It's just like it's my own almost that time that you gotta like see what you got and like please say like there's a lot of stuff that can change from like my point of view of 30 and a young prospect. It's just like

I don't know. Alright so Rick you've switched to the phone now but I want to ask you one more question before we let you go, because there's July that was probably among the best and also the strangest that any pitcher in pro ball has had this year. You pitched nine perfect innings, you pitched nine perfect innings, and the game was still scoreless. And then you left the game because of the rule that says that a runner has to start on second base in extra innings, which you thought maybe would jeopardize the perfect game. Can you take us through what you were thinking as you got to the end of this game?

You knew you had the perfect game going on and you knew that this rule was going to come into play in the next inning. Oh, man, it was strange. I mean, it was the ninth inning. I got that last out. Obviously, you want to celebrate, but yeah, it's a 0-0 game. You're going into the bottom of the ninth now. So really hoping the team's going to score, and if they don't, the plan is to go back in the game. My manager came over, and he said, you know, Rick, that's it. He came to shake my hand,

and I said, no, no, you're crazy if I'm coming out of this game. He mentioned that. I hadn't even thought of that. He mentioned it. He goes, Rick, they're going to put a guy on second base to start the 10th. The perfect game is over this nine innings has happened you can you can never take it away from you perfect game ends as soon as you take that mound again so we're gonna get a guy in there who's fresh he's not at 110 pitches and we're gonna win this game for you and uh yeah very very weird emotions teammates were all surrounding me kind of nodding like yeah take it take it get out of there definitely a weird then i was just praying for the walk-off after that, but unfortunately we ended up losing in the tenth,

and just a very strange vibe after that game for sure. Yeah, well, do you think that that is right? I mean, should a perfect game be disrupted by an automatic runner on second? Because obviously that's not a base runner that you've allowed. It hasn't marred your perfection. It's kind of like a philosophical question, I guess.

If a perfect game is keeping everyone off base, then maybe it's not perfect. But in terms of your own performance and personally preventing people from reaching base, that's still perfect. Yeah, yeah. That's a strange way to look at it. Is it still a perfect game?

I'm not sure. I think that they'll probably alter the rule if that ever becomes a rule, or even just from now on in the future in minor leagues or in the Atlantic League, if it is the 10th inning, either. You know, if somebody's got a perfect game going, make it an exception where the guy doesn't start at second base. At that point, I don't think fans are worried about the game being over with. They want to see what happens.

Or, you know, obviously alter the rule to where, hey, if there is a guy put on bait, it doesn't ruin the perfect game. But, yeah, in that situation, I don't think anybody thought that that was going to happen. You know, how often does that happen where a guy goes into the 10th inning with a perfect game? So definitely something nobody's thought of, and hopefully, you know, it got out there enough to where it's something that's thought about and brought up in the next meeting for the Atlantic League rules or future MLB rules. Yeah, and there's never been a perfect game in the Atlantic League, so no one was really prepared for this.

And there was a similar case in high A last year. So a minor league game, the Tampa Tarpons, and I think that was a seven inning game because they were playing a doubleheader. But it was the same sort of thing where they went into extras. And so there was a question of whether it would be perfect or not. And I saw on Twitter that Corey Schwartz, who's an executive at MLB, he was talking to J.J. Cooper from Baseball America on there. And J.J. Cooper was wondering if they would have to change the rule to make that a perfect game. And Schwartz said, no need to wait. I can tell you right now, auto runners don't count against a perfect game. And Schwartz said, no need to wait. I can tell you right now,

auto runners don't count against a perfect game or no hitter. And JJ said, is that documented somewhere? And Corey said, that I don't know, but we've reviewed and confirmed this previously this year with the necessary authorities. So evidently in the minors, I don't know if this applies to the Atlantic League, but someone at MLB has thought of this, and apparently they would call it a perfect game if it turned out to be, which in the case of that game, it didn't because I think someone reached on error in the next inning.

And in your game, there was another pitcher who came in to replace you, and there was a single that was allowed. single that was allowed but i guess potentially if the rules would be the same then maybe it still could have been perfect if you had gone back out there and pitched another perfect day i don't it's hard to say because they're in unprecedented territory here but it seems like maybe they have some kind of carve out for the extra runner rule in those situations right i'm glad they figured something out and it's out there now i'd say even even so, just at the games, if it's a perfect game or a no-hitter, don't put a guy on base. Well, more specifically, perfect game. Don't put the guy on base.

Just let the perfect game ride out. I mean, what's the likelihood of going 15 perfect innings? I don't think anybody's going to do that. But for at least the 10th inning, let it happen. Would have been fun to see. But, you know, I still take it as an accomplishment. I try to just say, you know what, I went nine. I did what I could do. And I know guys are busting their butts out there they made some great plays so i'm not going to complain about that they saved it

more than once so uh definitely still a great experience yeah to have done that i guess these days it's pretty rare for anyone to go nine innings let alone 10 and in the big leagues probably a guy with 110 pitches they might not let him go back out there so i don't know how often this would happen because it's rare enough to get nine perfect innings and then even rarer for someone to be allowed to go back out there with that kind of pitch count yeah absolutely but once in a lifetime i think guys would just try to do it at old school guys would say hey we used to throw 170 pitches every outing. So you can muster up enough adrenaline to try and get it done, I'm sure. One ball and two strikes.

Two out. Nobody on top of the ninth. The fans at TD Bank Ballpark begin to rise to their feet. It's a two-strike clap. They know what's happening. The one-two. Swung on a soft grounder. Back to the mound.

Gloved by Teasley, throw to first in time! 27 up and 27 down for Teasley, the first pitcher in Somerset Patriots history to do so. That is a perfect nine innings for the Somerset Southpaw. Well, you guys did not ask to be put in this position, but maybe we'll learn something from it, at least, you know, even if it's what not to do and how not to do it. you're putting up with it all and telling us about it. Cause I think we learned a lot from hearing about it from players involved. Cause it's, it's easy for us to say, Oh,

this is a good idea and they should try this and they should try that. But you guys are the ones who actually have to suffer the consequences. So we appreciate your perspective. Thanks Ben. Yeah. All right. Good luck with the rest of the season. See you guys.

Thank you guys. See ya. All right. Good luck with the rest of the season. See you guys. Thank you, guys. All right. Thanks to Rick and Jovan for coming on and sharing the story of their season. That was eye-opening in certain respects. You know, one interesting thing about this season in the Atlantic League is that for all the upheaval and all these different rules, the offensive environment has barely changed at all. Last season, there were 4.49 runs scored per game. This year, 4.56. Walk rates gone from 3.3 per nine to 3.4 per nine. Strikeout rates gone from 7.8 to 7.7. So you

wouldn't even necessarily know that anything had happened if you were just looking at the league totals on baseball reference. But boy, a lot has happened. And again, I'm glad that MLB is experimenting. I'm glad that this partnership exists. Easy for me to say. I don't have to be part of the experiment, but I'm glad that there is a place where these rules can be tested. Clearly, though, the communication should be better. One of the things I questioned at the beginning of the season was why so many rules changes were being implemented all at once instead of just one or two things at a time so that the players weren't overwhelmed and so that we could actually isolate the impact of each of the differences. Now we have so many variables that are overlapping and maybe confounding each other. So I think maybe that was somewhat suspect

and clearly just the way that this was conveyed to the players. This was probably sort of a last minute thing. I'm sure it will go a bit more smoothly next season. I don't know whether the responsibility lies more with MLB or with the league or with individual teams for communicating or not communicating these changes. I mean, a pitcher should not be told that he can't attempt pickoffs the way he has always attempted pickoffs after the national anthem and before he throws the first pitch. That is not ideal. So the process should probably be improved. And I hope that MLB and the Atlantic League do solicit and And I hope that MLB and the Atlantic League do solicit and accept feedback from players like Rick and Jovan as they are planning next

season, because it turns out they had a lot to say. So that will do it for today and for this week. Thank you for listening. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and agreed to pledge some small monthly amount to help keep the podcast going and get themselves access to some perks Andy Oklak Patrick Finley Brandon Castro Sean P

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Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. You can buy my book, The MVP Machine, How Baseball's New Nonconformists Are Using data to build better players. Your reviews and ratings are appreciated for the book as well. We hope you have a wonderful weekend. Enjoy the stretch run and the coming climax of some of these remaining playoff races. And we will be back to talk to you early next week. Everything's so democratic and cool But baby, there's no guidance when random rules