Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1553: The Greed to Disagree

Episode Date: June 20, 2020

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley review the latest lack of progress toward starting the MLB season, touching on the false hope offered by a meeting between Rob Manfred and Tony Clark, the subsequent breakdown in talks, a poll about where the public places blame for the standstill, what negotiations without leaks would look like, how […]

Close my eyes and there will be crying Close my eyes and there will be love My eyes are running, you understand what I want My eyes are running, you understand what I need My eyes are running, you, but I just don't agree, don't agree. Hello and welcome to episode 1553 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangraphs, and I am joined as always by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? I'm doing all right. How are you?

Doing all right. I really thought we might have some good news to talk about today, but instead, not really. Nope. been this week, but briefly looked like there might be a breakthrough there just for a few hours. There was a ray of light that shone through the clouds and then quickly the clouds drew across the sky again. So last time we spoke, it's really hard to keep these days and proposals and counter proposals straight. Like I know we've talked about, and many people have said how difficult it is just to keep the day straight if you are someone who's working from home during the pandemic. But it's also very difficult to keep the sequence of offers and counter offers clear, partly because there are such similarities between them and such incremental moves, but also because there hasn't been a resolution. We don't know

anything one way or another still, which I thought maybe by now we would have an answer of some sort but we do not only more uncertainty only more uncertainty but also I think that I think that if we wanted to be optimistic about the prospect of a season from an economic perspective we're going to talk about some of the pandemic related realities that may get in the way of playing ball. But I think that an important thing happened this week, which is that. Scott Boris made an analogy. We'll get to that too. We're going to get to that.

Ben. Ben. There's so little in the world right now that feels good. Yeah. And then there's this. Yes. So that's just a delight. Stay tuned.

Stay tuned. But what I will say is that I think that we learned a couple of things in the last iteration of proposals. The first of which is, and this went up a little while ago as we're recording on Friday at Fangraphs, but Eugene Friedman, who our listeners have heard from before on these questions, got his hands on the March agreement and looked at it from the perspective of a person who has actually negotiated collective bargaining agreements on behalf of a union. And his analysis sort of backs up what I think has been operating in the background for a while and seemed to be very clear this week, which is the owners seem very, very keen to avoid a grievance. It's one that the players seemed, at least from my layman's perspective, likely to win,

but which Eugene points out, even if the owners were to win, part of their calculus no doubt has to do with the requirements that that process would bring of them presenting more detailed financial information than they are likely to want to do. So there's that part of it. And I think seeing that dynamic play out made the commissioner's subsequent offer to the players make a lot of sense. I think that the back and forth that has followed since then of whether they had a deal or a proposal or a deal in principle, an agreement in principle, is sort of messy and silly. And just a reminder that these negotiations are far more public than is probably good for anyone. Yes. That's just part and parcel with doing these sorts of negotiations that isn't fun for fans to have to sort through, especially in a moment when the sort of larger concerns of the world, whether they're related to the pandemic or to social justice and Black Lives Matter, make the silliness of all of this feel more intense, even if it is still very important. so so like that part's not good but i i do think that it allows us to sort of appreciate the dynamic that might exist within the ownership uh group itself right so we i think have have

talked before about how that is a group that does not have one set of interests right there are and we talked earlier this week about how there are some owners who would just as soon punt on the entire season there are others who are keen to. Rob Manfred seems to be in a position where he is having to satisfy a lot of different constituencies and try to build consensus. And so it is perfectly possible that there was either a miscommunication or a misunderstanding on his part or the owners in terms of how done this deal was. But also there are going to be owners who would just as soon not play at all. And so the counter proposal that the Players Association brought forth this week is just another reason for them to say, go screw off and play 50 games

and let's be done with it. So I think that all of that is unfortunate to watch but i don't think that this today is the most optimistic i have been in quite a while that we will see baseball played in 2020 and if we don't it will not be because of economic questions because i think once mlb moved off of its prior claims that it did not have an obligation to pay the full prorated salaries that were agreed to under the March Agreement, then we're really just haggling about games. And that isn't an unimportant question, and that doesn't mean that this is done. But once you've conceded that central claim, I feel like you get closer to being able to coalesce around some of the other issues.

And I think that what we saw in the players' counterproposal to the owners' proposal of 60 games was, you know, a continuing effort on the part of the Players Association to offer something for those additional games to make it worth the while of the league to host as many games as possible right so we saw that they will continue to you know they're allowing for some forgiveness of the advanced salaries and in line with what mlb had proposed they are allowing for expanded playoffs although they smartly um kind of got ahead of the potential revenue questions there in 2021 when presumably the season will be more normal. They are in a move that will offend a great many people

and it will feel so good to be mad about this instead of mad about ownership trying to job the players out of salary that they had agreed to pay. They have agreed to allow some advertising. Directly on uniforms. And we're all going to get so exercised about it. And I can't wait. Yeah. So I think.

I think. I think what I will say is that I am. Marginally more optimistic. That we will see baseball played. In the US in 2020. Provided everyone doesn't get COVID. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was encouraging that they started talking again, even face-to-face, hopefully wearing masks or sitting several feet apart. But when we last spoke, it seemed like things were at such an impasse and

there was so much rancor that they just weren't even going to continue to negotiate. And then shortly after that, we learned that there was this briefly kind of clandestine meeting between Rob Manfred and Tony Clark. And Rob Manfred put out a statement and he said, at my request, Tony Clark and I met for several hours yesterday in Phoenix. I couldn't tell whether the at my request was supposed to be like self-aggrandizing, kind of imperious like i summoned tony to come talk to me or whether it was something that he said because clark wanted it to be clear that manfred had made that request that he wasn't seeking an audience that he had been invited so i don't know actually what the motivation for that little clause was because really who cares

whose request it was but he felt it was important to be in there. And then Manfred said, we left that meeting with a jointly developed framework that we agreed could form the basis of an agreement. A jointly developed framework that we agreed could form the basis of an agreement. And then shortly after that, it became clear that they really had not agreed that that could be an agreement, and they might not even agree on what an agreement would mean. So then they went back and forth about that a bit, and Tony Clark and the Players Association put out a couple statements that said, I make clear repeatedly in that meeting and after it that there were a number of significant issues with what he proposed, in particular the number of games. It is unequivocally false to suggest that any tentative agreement or other agreement was reached in that meeting, etc., etc. And then

Manfred responded, I don't know what Tony and I were doing there for several hours going back and forth and making trades if we weren't reaching an agreement. So it seemed like they talked in person for a few hours and that maybe got them closer to something. But then very quickly, a lot of that kind of unraveled and they were back to making statements about each other and what they had agreed to agree about. So that was sort of depressing to see. But you're right, the fact that they met at all, that they talked, that there was another MLB proposal, that was definitely encouraging. And that MLB offered 60 games, and then the players came back with 70 games. And I think a lot of people saw that and thought,

okay, well, it's pretty clear where this should end up, right? Just split the difference, 65 games or maybe 66, which might be more advantageous from a scheduling perspective. And that made it seem like, okay okay there's just one more little step here and they'll meet in the middle and that'll be that but on friday the owners informed the players association that they were not going to make a counter offer and that they are not going to go above 60 games so it's like that manfred clark meeting was the yalta conference or something it's like everyone gets together and agrees on how to end the war and then next thing you know

the iron curtain comes down and again from I've read, if they came back with five more games in their proposal, it'd be something like $130 million more in salary. And divided over 30 teams, we're talking like $5 million per club. $5 million. That's what teams spent this past winter to sign Gio Gonzalez, or Toddzier or Justin Smoke. I know it's a tough time economically, but this is a pittance to teams considering what they're worth and what they've made over the past decades. There was an article at The Athletic on Friday by Andrew Baggerly and others that looked at who these owners actually are and how they got their teams and how they made their money. And the answer is largely that they didn't. It looks like at least

half of the owners inherited their teams or inherited their fortunes. So it's not like they worked themselves up from nothing and now they can't bear to part with what they made. So we're sort of back to square one here. According to some of the reporting, I mean, owners were described as livid about receiving that offer, which is odd. Like, is that really enough? The difference between 60 games and 70 games, would that really make you livid? But it seems like, again, when people quote owners, who knows if they're talking to like the three owners who are the most upset about everything or what?

It's all anonymous sources, so it's really sort of hard to tell. But also, according to something Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellick wrote, it sounds like the owners, or at least some of the owners, thought they were being very magnanimous by coming back with the 60-game proposal and that they were then offended that the players didn't say, oh, thank you, sirs, for extending this offer. We actually have some notes about this. We have a counterproposal of our own.

And so evidently they bridled it, not only being forced to make another offer, but the fact that that offer was not immediately accepted. So hard to say. It seems like it's a little more complicated than just saying, okay, it's something in the middle of 60 and 70 games. And of course, with every day that ticks by, the owners can claim with more persuasiveness that 70 is no longer possible because of the schedule, that stalling may be the entire point of these latest delays. And COVID comes into that too, and we'll talk about that also. But there are these other issues here where who's going to get the incremental revenue for those additional postseason games the players requested a 50 50 split and

they also allowed for a mutual waiver of the right to file a grievance and there are other considerations here it's it's kind of funny actually that the only thing the players and owners really seem to agree about is that they want the dh like of all the things of all the things that they could find consensus about it's the one thing that baseball fans have been divided about for 45 years, right? And they still can't agree about, which it was almost like a nice little return to normalcy this week that everyone was all upset about the DH and that we were having DH arguments as tired as those debates are. as tired as those debates are, it was like, oh, baseball's almost back because we're arguing about the DH again. It was kind of nice to have that back in our lives. But it's funny that that's the one thing that the players and the owners can actually agree on when the fans cannot. Meanwhile, all the fans think we should play baseball and as much of it as possible if we can do that safely. And that is not something that the owners and the players

seem to both agree on. Yeah, I think you're right to say that because we don't know exactly who on the ownership side is making these statements about being livid and furious and what have you, you know, it is difficult to know, you know, we're not able to just ask them about it. So we'll grant that. But I find the posturing part of that very strange, because this is not the first time in the course of these negotiations that well-placed baseball insiders have gotten sort of anonymous quotes from either owners directly or folks on the management side. And they always seem geared toward kind of swaying public opinion away from the players and achieving a swift resolution in the owner's favor.

And all it's done really since this began is set the players up for a potentially very successful and very expensive grievance and a baseline of 60 games played. So it's like you're angry, but also are you just angry because it's working? It's working. It seems to be pretty successful.

Yeah, I think that it is. And Eugene wrote about this in his piece for FanGraphs. strategy, the public facing strategy that ownership and Commissioner Manfred in particular did not choose to deploy was one of the great health and safety concerns that are obviously present with the resumption of any kind of a season. And I think, you know, in the last couple of days, they might have been trying to move in that direction with some strategic leaking of positive COVID test results for players and coaches, which I think as we discussed, it would be more surprising given how many people baseball employees, if no one ever got COVID in the course of

this. But that seems to me, whether it was sort of a sincere concern and belief or not, like an argument that would have been very persuasive for a lot of people even a lot of people and maybe especially for people who consider themselves to be pro player and anti-owner because then you're really trying to mind the most important part of a player's well-being right their actual health and the health of the people who they know and live with so i've been surprised that that hasn't been more of the approach. And it suggests that they are keen to play baseball and perhaps to play as much of it as possible, but they just really don't want to pay the players very much.

So anyhow, now that argument would be even more persuasive. I suppose this is as good a time as any for us to talk about the news that came out of Florida today, which is that the Phillies appear to have a small outbreak of COVID-19 at their spring training facility in Florida. And per the reporting of Matt Gelb at The Athletic, there have been five players and three staff members who have tested positive, and there are 30-some-odd people who are awaiting test results, 20 of whom are players, including some minor leaguers who live in the Clearwater area where the facility is. factor toward any kind of baseball being played here. The Blue Jays have closed their facility entirely proactively because they have an individual in camp who is exhibiting some symptoms that are consistent with COVID-19. That person is still awaiting their test results and presumably there will be other testing that needs to be done among Blue Jays players. I think that individual is said to have been in contact with some of the folks on the Philly side because the facilities are very close to one another. I think they're only

like a 10, 15 minute drive apart from one another. So we still have to deal with a global pandemic. Yes, very much so. Yeah. And Florida is one of the places where the cases are climbing. So is Arizona. Those are obviously places where baseball players are and would be if they were getting ready to start training for a season to start. So that is pretty concerning. I mean, it's something that seems almost inevitable. And obviously, some players and baseball goes to show that if they are to do that, it would be very difficult for this not to happen. And I know the Tampa Bay Lightning had a similar story on the same day in hockey. So this is something that just would happen. And even if you think, well, players are young and strong and they should be okay, that's not 100%. But even if you think that, there are other personnel who are affected and who are not necessarily young athletes. So it's a problem. It's always been a problem, of course, but it's

kind of receded to the background as we focused on the more immediate economic problems, but this is just threatening to overshadow all of that. So I don't know how this news came out. I hope that this was not leaked in order to bolster the owner's position and put pressure on the players to get things going or to play fewer games or something. And especially in the case of the Blue Jays player, some of the details I saw reported make it seem pretty easy to identify who that player was, which seems like perhaps a privacy concern. So that's not great either.

But these two camps are in the same sort of area, and there had evidently been some communication between them. And that would probably happen if you had a bunch of baseball players flocking to florida and arizona to train they're going to be playing each other they might be socializing if they're not careful and this is just something that it seems like we could have an agreement to restart the season any day now but it could all be moot because if this starts happening more often, even before they start reporting or they start reporting and this starts happening more often, I don't really

know what you'd do. Like NPP had sort of a scare with this and they were just able to start their season, but it has caused some delays in other leagues or other leagues to shut down entirely. And I don't know, even if you figure, well, the odds are good that most players would be okay even if they contracted that, like these Phillies people reportedly are okay as far as we can tell or are not exhibiting serious consequences. But you can't say that that would be the case for everyone. And there are people that those people are going to be in contact with And so you have to have some plan for how to shut it down if this does start happening Which would be quite dismaying and disappointing of course

If we got to that point where we could actually see a start date and then just couldn't get there But there has to be some provision for that Because if you start the process and then these cases start exploding, then you can't just kind of power through it, right? I mean, even if those players mostly are okay, these are not safe conditions to proceed with a season. So I don't know exactly what you do about it.

I guess you just figure out the economic stuff and then you have to agree on the health and safety protocols and maybe you bake in something there that says, okay, if this happens, we pause, we shut down, we stop, we come back for a while. But really at this point, if they were to pause or shut down and say, okay, we have to wait a couple of weeks or something, that pretty much kills the season right there. And we haven't even named all of them the astros said they had a player who tested positive at their spring training complex the angels announced that they had two and their two weren't even at the team facility in arizona or at angel stadium and mlb ordered all the teams to close their spring training facilities for cleaning before allowing players back and maybe testing players before they come back but this

is all happening when these players are not at least officially together. So if they were all to come back, and then you have to close it down again, sayonara season. Yeah, I think that we would just do well to remember, like you said, you know, these folks out of Philly's camp, as far as we know, seem to not be exhibiting very dire symptoms. but we know so little about this virus. We know so little about the long-term effects that it has on people's health and well-being, some aspects of which are going to be relevant to baseball players being sort of athletically able to compete at a high level, some of which are just going to impact their long-term health as human beings. So we don't know that part even for young, otherwise healthy athletes. We just

know so little about what this is going to mean for people as they progress through their lives after having recovered from it. And like you said, you know, not everyone who is at these facilities or would be at a ballpark in order to broadcast a game, even one without fans in attendance, is going to be a young, healthy athlete. You know, I keep thinking about how PG National kicked off its summer showcase circuit in Birmingham earlier this week for scouts to go scout 2021 draft prospects. You think about the average age of a scout sitting in that scouting section, you know, a lot of those folks are going to just naturally be in a high risk group because

of their age. So I, you know, I worry about those folks. I worry about the, you know, the gate attendant and the person who has to operate the camera and the clubby. Like we just, you know, I think have this impression of the most visible parts of this being, you know, relatively young people who are employed in part because of their physical conditioning. But there are just so many other people who are involved in this. And even if they are doing everything that they need to, it's not like, you know, if you're a ballpark attendant who needs to be there

even with no fans so that the game can go on, you're not making enough money where we know that you're a single income household, like your spouse might need to go out in the world and be a working person, your kids might need to be, you know, doing summer activities. There's just so many potential vectors for it to come into baseball that I think that this is a very good reminder that at the very least, there but there is a threat of practicality in it, which is that it is going to be difficult to play baseball or do anything in October. this week was saying how he doesn't think baseball should try to play games in October where COVID season, a resurgence in COVID might overlap with cold and flu season. So we're not through it yet. Right. Yeah. And just looking at the data on the national level, it's been kind of confounding because on the one hand, the case rates are climbing, the positive test rates are climbing, or at least leveling. And of course, it depends on which

area you're looking at, but I'm just talking about the aggregated numbers here. While the deaths are still fortunately declining, the numbers are still a lot larger than you would like, but it's odd to see those two things happening at the same time. And it seems like the theories I've seen are that it's mostly younger people maybe getting exposed now and testing positive, and those new cases are skewing younger than they were previously because areas have started to reopen and some people have gone back to work. And so maybe it's less at-risk populations that are getting infected now predominantly compared to the earlier waves where you had a lot of senior centers and nursing homes that were really getting hit hard.

But still, those more vulnerable groups are out there, and the younger people who are getting infected can still give it to them. So even if those people are not dying in the same numbers that the people who contracted it earlier were, they can still give it to more at risk people And everyone's a little at risk So it's pretty worrisome And I don't know if we're At the point now where it's like okay It's just immoral to even try to do

This or what because Obviously I'm rooting for the economic stuff To get hammered out if only because Well if we do have to cancel the Season I hope that we can Blame it on COVID And that that will be the reason. So I almost want there to be an economic agreement before it becomes clear that they have to stop the season for health-related reasons, just so that when we look back on this in the future, it's not the economic agreement that actually finally sealed the fate of this season. agreement that actually finally sealed the fate of this season. Although, as we've discussed at this point, it's hard to know whether the health-related reasons are related to the economic

reasons. So that's a problem too. But yeah, there's so much uncertainty about everything that you just want what can be resolved to be resolved so that we can then tackle the parts that we can't actually clearly do anything about. Yeah, which is why we will say there's a lot that goes into bringing sports back. So I don't mean to say that this is the only thing, but please wear a mask. Yes. Please wear a mask in public. Please wear a mask if you're going to be in a place that has other people.

Please just wear a mask. Yeah. It's so easy. And there are times when it is uncomfortable if you have to do it all day, but you should do it anyway. And I realized that that kind of face covering is not, you know, it is not a thing that we are used to doing. And there was conflicting messaging in the beginning of this

about how necessary it was. But we know a lot more stuff now. And it's just the simplest thing and a very effective thing that you can do to show respect to your neighbors, to other people in the world, to other members of your community. Please wear a mask. Please, please, please. Yeah, it's been disconcerting to see the masks start to disappear here in New York, where I was pretty heartened by how quickly they appeared and how everyone really seemed to be adopting them for the most part. Obviously, this area was hit hard, and so it was an easier sell, I think, to people than it would be in a place where people are reading about these things happening far away, but not seeing it in their backyards. away, but not seeing it in their backyards. But certainly in the last week or so, just walking out and seeing people acting as if this is not still happening, it's like, what are we doing here,

people? And I think maybe it's because the weather's warmer and it just seems like summer all of a sudden, or maybe it's just general fatigue with this whole experience. Or I don't know if people are looking at the protests happening and thinking, well, if you can be out for one reason, I can just go out and go about my business as usual and just sun myself and walk around in crowds and not wear masks. I don't know what the rationale is, but it is a difficult thing to navigate, I think, when you're in groups, which I experienced this week because I went to a funeral this week with my mom and other members of my family there. And we were in Virginia. And this was the first time I had been out of state for months. And this was the first time that I had really been in a group of people for months and even in public places. Like we went to a restaurant because Virginia is in phase two,

and we were the only people in the restaurant. It was just my group, our family group, but it was still so strange to be in that situation. And my mom and I were kind of uncomfortable with it, even more so than other members of my family were, because we're from New York and a couple other people are from New York, but mostly they aren't. And things have opened up earlier elsewhere. But it was this weird dynamic where we all wore masks in public. So if we were at the funeral home, if we were at the service, if we were at the church, if we were anywhere where other people were. or anywhere where other people were.

But then it was like when we got into private, when we were just kind of at home with each other, suddenly no one was. And it's just like, well, we're with family now, I guess. But it was still like a dozen people or more. And we've all been in different places. And so it doesn't actually make any sense to take your mask off when you're just with your family indoors. But then my mom and I,

I think, were the most uncomfortable with it. And it was difficult to know what to do because we considered not going, but it would have been painful for my mom not to go or to go without me. And we were pretty confident that we wouldn't be endangering anyone else, either because of testing or because we've been isolating. So it was more about risking ourselves than being dangerous to others. And my mom had spoken to one of my cousins earlier in the week, and she was like, so now when we see each other, we're not going to hug or anything, right? And he was like, oh, no, I'm not comfortable with not doing that, you know, because the family's coming together to mourn and everyone's sad

and they want that physical comfort, I guess. And yet, gosh, I haven't hugged anyone except my wife in months, I think, at this point. And so it was really weird. But if a family member comes up to you and goes for the hug, like, what do you do? Do you just fold your arms and say, no, thank you? Like, I hadn't seen some of these people in years and you're at a funeral, you're at a ceremony where you're trying to mourn and everything. And it's just like, and then if you're in a family group, do you want to be like the

one person who's wearing a mask? And it's like almost silently judging everyone who's not, but also like it's just the safe thing to do. That's just something that happens in a group dynamic that I hadn't really confronted at all up to this point. And that's something that if baseball teams are congregating and players are getting together, it's going to be the same sort of social pressure, I think, because some people will be like, no, it's fine. And other people won't be comfortable with that. But then are you actually going to do what you want to do? Are you kind of going to go with the herd? So I didn't know exactly how to handle that. And I just tried to do our best kind of without giving great offense to anyone. But I felt more exposed than I had in some times. So that's another thing we've talked about that with like opting out of the season, if that's something that players would even have the opportunity to do. Do you do that knowing that the public's

going to judge you, that your teammates are perhaps going to judge you, even if you are the one being prudent? It's just hard to know what the reaction would be or what the consequences of that would be. Yeah, it's a very, you know, it's an uncomfortable thing. I hope that people can, especially to their family members, show some, you know, at the very least sort of respect for an abundance of caution, ideally sort of appreciate the mutual caretaking that we're engaged in. You know, I think that everyone has sort of navigated those interactions as best they can, often with sort of imperfect information about the exact right way to do it. And I know that those conversations can be hard and complicated, so I don't mean to

downplay how difficult they can be, especially in your family unit, especially, and I don't mean to say that this was a dynamic that was at play with your family, but, you know, maybe you have to have some hard conversations with members of your extended family about the reality and legitimacy of the virus. That too, yes. That too, yes. That is not easy either. But I think that, you know, as you're navigating that part, which is tricky and you have to find your way through the part that we know we can do is like when you go to the grocery store to wear a mask. And I hope that, you know, one of the aspects of the players counter proposal was some additional provisions around players being able to opt out. some additional provisions around players being able to opt out. So I don't know that we will ever get a universal consensus around how important it is to wear masks. And given how some fans in baseball respond to players who have the audacity to take paternity leave for three days when their children are born, I'm sure that there will be plenty of people who are

really nasty about it online, but hopefully reasonable minds can prevail and recognize that all that players are trying to do is the same thing that any of us are trying to do, which is to keep our loved ones and the people in our community safe. It's just not that hard. It's not really that unpleasant. At least I don't find it so personally. It's's the thing that I think about. And if you want a real bummer of an idea, Ben, you know, given the resistance to masks, how confident are we that everyone's going to get a COVID vaccine when it is available?

Yeah. Oh no. Yeah. It's something that I've thought about a lot because, and we're ranging a little bit far field from baseball, but sometimes there are positive aspects to this. I think of just how unpredictable all of this would have been just several months ago and how really it's kind of amazing that we have shut down to the extent that we have and that so many people have cooperated and have eagerly even taken part in sacrificing certain things and doing without certain things. And I think that's very heartening in a way. And really, we hear a lot about the exceptions to that rule and, you know, people who are out protesting having to wear masks or shut down businesses or whatever, but they were very much in the minority for months at a time. There were very high approval ratings for all of these safety measures.

And it's similar. I was reading a paper the other day that suggested that actually the response to the coronavirus has potentially saved a huge number of lives and that if you look at it from a very high level, it's been one of the most successful responses, coordinated public health responses that we've ever seen, which is not the way we typically think about it because, of course, we are confronted with the worst aspects of the story at all times. We see the people who got it and who suffered from it, but we can't see the people who didn't get it and who didn't suffer from it because of some steps that were taken. There are things about it that make me more

optimistic about human nature, but it does seem like we're at a point now where we did that for a few months and a lot of people kind of reached their breaking point with that, or it just seemed like less of an immediate concern. And so people kind of took it as, okay, it's safe to go back. And maybe having done it for a long time, once you start not doing it, then harder psychologically to go back to doing it because it's actually encourage me, but it's harder to see those and keep that kind of perspective than it is to see someone who is getting in an elevator with you and not wearing a mask, let's say,

and then you get very upset about humanity again. Just put it by the front door, by your keys, so you get ready to go out, and you're like, oh, I need my keys so I can get back into my house. And I need my mask so that I can get into Safeway. And just do it that way.

And I have found that, you know, sometimes I am forgetful. Everyone who has to shop somewhere with reusable bags will relate to this. And so I have two masks. I have one that's in the house and I have one that just lives in my car. I know that this will not be a relatable circumstance for you, Ben, but it just lives in my car. And that way I don't accidentally get to the co-op and realize I got to turn around because I forgot my mask. So there you go. To ask a baseball question again, I was wondering if Eugene, I have not had a chance to read his post yet, but was he

able to analyze or share the specific language about the prorated pay now that he has access to that agreement? Because when we talked to him and when he's been tweeting, he has generally been of the opinion that the player's side has been more supported by the facts that they maintained that prorated pay was agreed to no matter what the circumstances in that March Accord. And the owners, meanwhile, have been insisting that, no, it's specified that if we were to play games without fins, that would be an open issue that would be subject to negotiation again. So I wonder if he was able to kind of confirm that or provide any hard evidence for that. He did read that section and felt that the text supported his earlier conclusion.

We did not, it's a big honk and long block quote. And so we did not include it in the piece for the purposes of not wanting to, you know, in the interest of clarity, actually confuse the matter further. But I have seen what he saw. And I, you know, even in my layman's terms, I'm pretty confident in his conclusion also. So yes, he felt satisfied and heartened that the matter had been settled since March, which, you know, I think we've seen borne out by this counter proposal and also by some of the commentary that we've gotten out of not the commissioner, but other people sort of in the ecosystem in the last week. So yeah. It's interesting you mentioned the public aspect of this and how it's not great to have these two sides publicly bickering like

this. But I saw a tweet from Brandon McCarthy that was kind of related to that the other day, where he quote tweeted one of the very snippy MLB statements about the MLBPA and he said let's keep doing this publicly the fans are horny for more of this obviously the feds want none of this but I wonder if there really was an alternative like it's bad that this leaked and obviously a lot of the leaks are motivated in order to sway the fans to think something about one side or the other. But I wonder if this could have actually happened in secrecy. That's the thing Eugene noted that in almost every negotiation he has been a part of and he's worked with the air traffic controllers, it's typically behind closed doors. It doesn't become public. And this is just all out in the

open in a very messy way. And if it hadn't been like if this standstill and stalemate had happened and we just hadn't known any of the blow by blow like on one on the one hand i guess that would be better for baseball in a way i don't know that i would rather not know about what's happening here like Like if nothing were happening, if we just heard, well, they're still negotiating, they're still going back and forth, and it were stretching on for weeks and months, that would be frustrating in a way too, because we would think, well, what could possibly be taking this long? So I don't know if that would be better. It'd be better if they were just more civil, I suppose, or if they were able to actually agree on things. And if some things that had been proposed just had not been proposed, or if they had just abided by that earlier agreement and built on that. But if there had just been nothing, if it had just been a blackout and, okay, they're talking, that's all we know, they still haven't agreed on anything that would be weird in

its own way oh yeah i mean i'm nosy by nature yeah so i would have wanted to know but i i wonder i do wonder if like the delay would have been as significant if it was all just happening between the two parties behind closed doors because part of the delay tactic is public facing i mean some of it is some of it is not right like some of it is absolutely that the longer ownership delays the more likely a short season is to happen just by necessity of the calendar so it is it is not as if there isn't a an actual element of strategy to, but I do think that it probably would not have gone on for quite so long. And some of the nastiest bits of the back and forth probably don't happen if people are not sitting there reacting not only to the behavior of the party on the other end of the negotiating table, but also the public reaction to that behavior, right? I would imagine, and I would find this reaction to benefit from some self-reflection to think about who is truly at fault here. But I would imagine that the folks on the ownership side feel kind of put upon in

this moment, and that's why they're being all gnarly. That's not the only reason, because clearly they get irritated easily based on their reaction to the last proposal, or at least a subset of them do. But I wonder if it would have lowered the temperature at least slightly because then you're only really reacting to the behavior of the other party to the negotiation and not to, you know, not the entirety, but much of the baseball internet being like, hey, stop jobbing the players and let's let them play baseball, you know, not the entirety, but much of the baseball internet being like, hey, stop jobbing the players and let's let them play baseball, you know. So it would be an interesting counterfactual to see kind of how that played out, you know. Like, I don't know how the collective

bargaining sessions of longshoremen go. Longshore, what is the... Longshore people. Longshore people. Yeah. I imagine that they are not called longshoremen anymore because they are all sorts of longshore folks. That seems bad, too. Anyway, before I continue to fumble over this, we don't know, you know, like long haul truckers. We don't know what their collective bargaining arrangements are like in public because we just are not interested in that drama and they're not paid as much as baseball players which automatically makes the public more interested in the stakes of those negotiations because of all the zeros but yeah it would be interesting yeah yeah we were talking last time about the public perception and i became acquainted with a little more of the public's perception this week when I was actually associating with other people in person and spending, I don't know, 12 or more hours in a car with my mom.

I learned her opinion of these negotiations as well as her opinions about a great many other things. And I got her reaction, which, you know, she hasn't really been paying attention to this. She knows that nothing has been agreed to. She knows there's no season. She doesn't really know why or anything about the back and forth. And she said, basically, I would think that the players would just want to field and I would just do it for anything basically, which if I were my mom and I were paying as close attention to this as my mom, which is not very, I might very well think that too. I might think, well, other people are going back to work and so it's time for the players to go back to work and don't they want to play and shouldn't they just get out there? And that is what some people think. And we were curious about whether there would be much of a change in that perception because in the past, in 94, 95, in 2002, when there's been polling done, it has tended to show that the public supports ownership and has sort of my mom's opinion of the player side.

And we wondered whether the owners and Rob Manfred had screwed up their messaging enough this time that maybe the opposite would be the case and I noted that there was a poll in the field that Morning Consult was doing some polling on this and they did publish it on Friday and it shows a little bit of a swing in the other direction I suppose in that the people who had an opinion tended to favor the players or at least blame the owners more. So among self-identified MLB fans, 33% blamed the owners more and 24% blamed the players more. Now that leaves 43% who said they didn't know or didn't have any opinion, which sounds like a lot.

Alex Silverman, the person who published this, who works at Morning Consult, told me that often he's surprised even among self-identified fans of a sport. Like, you know, self-identified football fans, like a lot of them won't watch the Super Bowl or something. And it's like, okay, in what way are you actually a fan if you're not watching or paying attention to the biggest thing of the season? But I don't know whether this just reflects the fact that people have other things on their mind, understandably, right now, or whether it's just that it's hard to even parse the responsibility and it's just depressing even to think about. just depressing even to think about. And I could see if you were just kind of a casual fan just being like, hey, just tell me when the season starts or when it doesn't. And I don't actually want to follow this blow by blow because it's not particularly fun to follow. So among self-identified avid MLB fans, it was split. So 35% each sided with ownership in the union so even 30 percent of avid MLB fans just don't know or don't have an opinion here but that is at least a slight change there is not the historical split

that we have seen favoring the owners here so to the extent that people have any opinion at all they do seem to have been somewhat swayed by the players' argument. Yeah, I think that it is a moment where the economic reality that many people in this country are facing and the dynamic that they have with their own employers mirrors in many ways the dynamic that is at play in terms of the players and ownership here. And I think that the Players Association has done a good job articulating a very clear, both message in terms of their desires, and also a very clear and seemingly sincere desire to play. And I think that those things in concert probably help to realign some of the sympathy that we have seen go to owners in the past.

And when I say sympathy go to owners, I think that often owners sort of are beneficiaries of what is really sympathy for the team. Right. So I think it's clear to important to make that clarification. I don't think there are many baseball fans sitting out there being like, I really, you know, the Steinbrenners. Yeah, just gets me to the ballpark every day, you know, but I think that the Yankees do so they become the beneficiaries of that sort of team loyalty and loyalty to the laundry. But we're all, I think, having a moment of reflection on sort of the economic factors that are at play in our own lives and it might have changed some things around, at least for some folks. And the realities that people face when it comes to those economic considerations might also help to account for why some fans were like, what? Yeah.

I'm trying to like educate my children and also do my job and not get covid i'm a little busy yeah right and they also polled people on how the commissioners of various sports have handled this and that did confirm what one would think which is that people don't like rob manfred right now although even rob manfred has a net positive rating. So they compared handled well to handled poorly. And Rob Manfred is at plus seven. So it's 30% of respondents thought he's handled this well, 23% thought he's handled it poorly. And I guess the rest just don't know or don't care. But that is the smallest spread there. So, you know, Adam Silver is on top with a plus 28. And then you have NASCAR and NHL and MLS and NFL in between them. So Rob Manford is at the bottom of the heap there. But still, more people think Rob Manford has handled this well, then handled it poorly, which like, I guess he's

handled it well in the sense that like, he did shut down baseball and like, didn't say, no, we're playing anyway. Like, we'll just, we'll defy the CDC and all the government recommendations and we'll just play baseball. Like he could have done that, I guess. So he didn't handle it that poorly. And it's tough circumstances, obviously. But yeah, it's sort of surprising to see that more people think he has handled it well than handled it poorly. But as you noted, it seems like he is dealing with a fractured ownership group. And that's something that historically has plagued the owners. Like under Marvin Miller, the Players Association was able to achieve

consensus or at least keep a lid on the detractors more so than the owners who are maybe more likely feel more entitled to just spout off about things or in the past before social media just had more ability to do that I don't know but that was often something that undercut the owner's position because they would have people come out and be sniping at each other or criticizing the commissioner. Rosenthal-Drellick article, you had Yankees president Randy Levine, who is a former lead negotiator for the league, saying, here's what I told Rob, and I think Rob should do this, and I think Rob should impose a season. And Rob would probably prefer that no one is publicly expressing their opinion, especially if it is contrary to his current course. So I don't know that he has done well even adjusting for the fact that it's probably pretty tough to herd these 30 ownership groups together but you know he's having to say things

that probably will placate some people and will anger others and they're all on different sides and it's probably hard for him to find a position that really everyone on the ownership side agrees with, let alone on the Players Association side or the fan side. I'm really struck here by the fact that Roger Goodell has a 40% handled well versus 24% handled poorly. And look, you know, I guess like I watched the NFL draft. I know you did not. I watched the NFL draft because I am an NFL fan. What is Roger Goodell? He didn't start the season early and so am an NFL fan. What is Roger Goodell? He didn't start the season early, and so he handled things well. What is he being evaluated on right now?

Yeah, I don't know. Lord, what a weird time. We're in such a strange moment for sports. Very much so. Speaking of strange moments, should we talk about Boris? What a good transition, Ben. What a good little transition. I'm amazed that we didn't actually record an emergency episode

because this is so squarely in our wheelhouse and such an extreme example of the Boris quote. Yep. Shall I read this? Yeah. There are a few different ones here here there's one that's like the headliner but yeah so just to work up to that one oh i'll give those before we get to and we should say this this is from this is from a tom bruducci piece uh from june 17th uh that appeared at sports

illustrated so yeah do you want to you want to warm us up? So some semi-colorful language. This is him talking about Manfred. Boris said, he's being the pancake commissioner where I'll flip anywhere I want to. When you negotiate publicly, once you say it, if you go down a different road, you lose credibility. Now he says, when he said on draft day, 100% we're going to have baseball,

the commissioner said there's a chicken in every pot. Now, that's a reference that I can't imagine would be familiar to most of his audience, but this is a reference to a Depression era thing. So Herbert Hoover allegedly promised in 1928 that there would be a chicken in every pot. in 1928 that there would be a chicken in every pot. And I think it turns out that he didn't actually promise this, but this became a criticism of him a few years later because people were saying, well, there's not a chicken in every pot and he promised us a chicken. So I don't know. This is something that is trotted out there every now and then, and especially in politics, I think people will make reference to this, but it's not something i hear every day and definitely not something i hear every day in a baseball context so scott boris showing his range showing his knowledge

of history here i don't know that i would be especially keen to invoke the great depression at our at this particular moment in american history but but yes i was surprised by that one too as a former student of american politics to be like oh hello scott what have what have you been reading of late sir yeah but that was not the main event shall i read the main event okay the tbs contract was the rectal thermometer it illustrated the truth to all the fans and that is the content of this game has such value even in the heart of a pandemic that you get a record contract for your rights when i say rectal thermometer i say it as the truest form of the temperature of the game. Yeah. Benjamin, I have so many questions and so many thoughts.

Yeah. The first of which is, I don't know if I can ask this question. So, like, my understanding as an adult person without children is that that like the most common recipients of temperatures taken via rectal thermometer are babies you take i believe that's true babies yeah if only because it's difficult to get a baby to keep their mouth closed right to keep a thermometer uh under their tongue so that you can now i don't know i don't i'll admit to total ignorance between the the relative accuracy of a normal in your mouth thermometer and in your butt through it's friday we're doing this yep but i i think that we have to wonder how long past his own infancy how recent is his rectal thermometer experience why did that come to mind for scott

i don't know the answer to that i truthfully don't want to know the answer to that because I'm content to not imagine it. I don't want to imagine it. Now all of you are imagining it and I am sorry. You'll never be able to unimagine it. You would need the team from Inception to get that image out of your brain. Yes. Congratulations. He does have a few

kids according to Google. I don't know their ages. Okay. Sure. So that's fine i just i think that when you're the other thing that i'm struck by here is that like i understand that there are moments perhaps i guess where like the the precision of one's temperature is important that's sort of like a as a bright line right to determine do I have a fever or don't I? But once you've crossed that threshold, I feel as if the temperature has served its purpose. And yes, the degree of one's fever can be very medically important, right? It can determine courses of

action like, oh, my child has a very high fever, and now I will seek medical attention for that child as opposed to they have a low grade fever and I can handle this at home. So I appreciate that there are gradations here. But when you're talking about billion dollar TV contracts, I think a regular old thermometer, it's just fine because it's worth a billion dollars. That's as precise as we need in terms of determining the value of the thing. It's worth a lot of money. Yep. yep yeah i particularly enjoyed how he immediately explained yeah he knew he knew he had gone a little far afield and was like oh i gotta i gotta tell them why i'm concerned with the butt thermometer and i refuse to call it a rectal thermometer because i don't know if like farducci made some sound like if he was like and forrest recognized that maybe he had to elaborate yeah i gotta go back

let me let me make this clear in general it's not the best sign like if you just made an analogy and or a metaphor and you immediately have to explain it like hopefully it it holds up more or less on its own so when he goes back a sentence later, and when I say rectal thermometer, which is taken out of context, a very funny start to a sentence. So that's not a great sign, really. I did do some research about thermometer accuracy, just because I was curious. And there was a study just a few years ago. It was like a meta-analysis, and researchers reviewed 75 published studies comparing peripheral thermometers with central ones, mostly either temperatures taken from a vein or from the rectum. They found that rectal thermometers were highly accurate.

Peripheral thermometers were further off, with oral thermometers doing best among the runners-up. So it does hold that the rectal thermometer is indeed the most accurate. I guess not just for babies, but for anyone, if you want to go that way. And I found a very amusing little summary of thermometer accuracy, courtesy of the Mayo Clinic. So it says regular digital thermometers use electronic heat sensors to record body temperature. These thermometers can be used in the rectum, mouth, or armpit. Armpit temperatures are usually the least accurate. Rectal temperatures provide the best readings for infants, especially those three months or younger, as long as the mouth is closed while the thermometer is in place. And some of these methods have slightly higher or lower baseline readings, so you have to be aware of that. But here's the paragraph that I really enjoy. This is, again, from rectal temperatures, you'll need to get two digital thermometers and label one for oral use and one for rectal use. Don't use the same thermometer in both places. Thank you, Mayo Clinic, for clarifying. And I would not have needed that note personally.

I feel like I would probably understand that or at least wash thoroughly between uses. But that seems like a safe course, a very sound idea to get two different thermometers and label them very clearly because you would not want those to be interchangeable, I would imagine. No. interchangeable, I would imagine. No, I remember in, you know, in sort of the early days of the pandemic, I haven't tried to, I had one, so I did not need to do this. But, you know, it was very hard to buy a thermometer in the early days of the pandemic because of supply chain issues. And I don't know if those have been resolved now or not. But I remember having a conversation with a friend who had a partner who was exhibiting some flu symptoms and they wanted to take that person's temperature as a baseline and they didn't have a

thermometer so we were kind of running through the things that they could use instead and you know they had various as as people who liked to cook they have had various uh like meat thermometers and i i felt the need to say, you know, make sure they're really careful if you do the probe meat thermometer because, you know, sharp so it can go in like a turkey. And she said, yeah, yes, thank you. I know that. Yes. Yes. The Mayo Clinic also says that parents may worry about causing discomfort when taking a child's temperature rectally. That is listed as one of the cons of that method.

Yeah, so I was playing the role of the Mayo Clinic in this moment, making a suggestion that was probably quite obvious. Don't also gouge yourself with a meat thermometer. Luckily, she was able to locate a human person thermometer for one's mouth. My goodness. Great work by Scott. He is in mid-season form, at least if nothing else is. And it's just one of those things where, you know,

I imagine that the disruptions to the baseball calendar, even if we get a season or not done, like I would be very surprised if we end up having winter meetings this year. That seems unlikely to me that there will be winter meetings seems like a very bad idea in fact but i will be sad to see them go only because something about being up in front of the audience when he does his you know his availability at the winter meetings just draws out the best the best stuff yeah so that you know it's one more thing the pandemic might end up denying us. Yes, that's right.

By the way, I wish I had known when I was a kid or wish my parents had known that sometimes you should just let a fever burn. It can be a sign of some underlying problem. You should maybe go get checked out, find out if it's something serious. But fevers can be helpful. Your immune system works better in some ways when your temperature is higher, so it can be smarter not to take a Tylenol or something, even though it's kind of uncomfortable. Never knew that at the time. Don't think this figurative fever has been beneficial for baseball, though. This sport is still sick. All right, can I close

with a stat blast that I want to get your thoughts on? So this week's stat blast song cover, or the second of the week, I guess, is courtesy of Kyle Cripps. It's sort of bittersweet because it's got crowd noise and an organ, and it sounds very much like we're all at the ballpark, unfortunately. The StatBlast song is the closest we can come. Thank you. All right, so thank you to Kyle for that one. This question comes courtesy of Guillaume.

I hope I am pronouncing that right. I would have said Guillaume, but Guillaume or Guillaume says that it is one of the hardest French names to pronounce for non-French people, as I've just demonstrated. So he says, I first want to thank you for your podcast that I appreciate a lot. I am French, and it is very difficult here to live your passion for baseball in a country where people are not very interested in this sport. I have been a baseball fan for more than three decades and got into statistics and analysis for a few years now, but I find myself with a question to which I cannot seem to find an answer. Which baseball player has won the most rings without playing a single second in a World Series? I think that it is possible, as you have to be on the roster to earn the ring, but I couldn't find an answer even after many weeks of research. to earn the ring, but I couldn't find an answer even after many weeks of research. Sounds like he was very diligent about this. I was not. I just emailed someone and asked for the answer, but I think I got one. So this is from listener Adam Ott, who has a RetroSheet database and knows how to use it. So he looked back to 1918 and he looked for players who were on a World Series winning team at some point in the season but did not appear in the World Series.

And he looked for the players who have done that the most times. And he looked a couple different ways. He excluded anyone who ever played in a World Series, even if they played on the losing side of a World Series at some point, because Guillaume said that he didn't want a single second in the World Series. And he also looked it up where he excluded appearances for a winning team in a World Series, but still kept anyone who may also have at another time appeared in a World Series for a losing team. The answer, either way, is the same, and it's an interesting one. The person who has appeared on the most World Series winning teams without playing for those teams in the World Series is a man named Art Jorgens, possibly Jorgens, and he was one of

the few players born in Norway in 1905. And Art Jorgens played for the Yankees, as you would expect, like the top of this leaderboard. It's almost all Yankees because the Yankees make the World Series more than any other team. And so there have just been more opportunities to do this. But Jorgens was on the Yankees' World Series winning teams in 1932, 1936, 1937, 1938, and 1939, and he never appeared in any of those World Series. I believe that he was on the rosters for some of those series because his baseball reference bullpen page, which calls him Art, not Aren't for some reason, so maybe he went by both.

Maybe he Americanized it. aren't for some reason. So maybe he went by both. Maybe he Americanized it. But it says that he holds the all-time record for World Series games in which he was on the roster without ever appearing in a game. He was on the postseason roster for the Yankees in 32 and from 36 to 39, but never appeared in a postseason game for them. Of course, the postseason at that time was just the World Series. So that's quite a career. He played his whole major league career for the Yankees, 11 seasons. And I guess he had the misfortune, I guess you would say misfortune, to come up one year after Bill Dickey, the Hall of Fame legendary catcher who was the first stringer for all of those years. And so he's on the team with Bill Dickey and Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio. And because of those guys, he was making the World Series every single year and he got to go and he got to see it, but he never got to play. And I didn't look to see if he literally received rings. I don't know whether the custom of awarding rings

has varied over the years, and not everyone who has ever played for a World Series winning team has gotten a ring, but he probably got some rings. So that is, I don't know whether that's a great career or sort of a sad career. And what's also interesting is that, so he was just kind of this replacement level catcher. had a 66 career ops plus a negative 0.6 career wins above replacement and the next guy on the list is a very similar player joe glenn who was a teammate of aren't jorgens and was also a backup catcher for some of the same teams not the 39 team but all the other ones so he was on four of the same teams, not the 39 team, but all the other ones. So he was on four of these teams.

And he too was a catcher who was not very good as far as we could tell and just didn't play that much because Bill Dickey was always around. And so Joe Glenn has a career 69 OPS plus and a negative 1.3 career war. So same story. You had these two guys who were just sort of either in the right place at the right time or just like totally in the wrong place at the wrong time. Which do you think it is? Would you want to have this career? Like you'd rather be Bill Dickey in a baseball sense, but if you can't be Bill Dickey, would you want to be these guys and at least get there every year even if you're sitting on the sidelines i think yeah i think i would i think the thing about it ben is that the one thing

you don't get to do is always going to be your greatest disappointment and the ability you have to weather that great disappointment depends a lot on the context of the other things that you get to do so i think i would rather be a ball player who was on a world series team but didn't get to play than a ball player who never got to the world series because i think that the one is easier to bear than the other so i think i think that that would be my answer. Again, this might fall squarely into the category of me being a Recovering Mariners fan. I will acknowledge that possibility to all of you. were great players who were blocked by Bill Dickey, because that would be frustrating if you just happened to overlap with this all-time great and you could have gone somewhere else and had more of a regular role, even if you hadn't been in the World Series,

that might still be more attractive. But if you are just kind of like a second string backup catcher, then yeah, I guess, you know, maybe he would have played more somewhere else. But if you're going to be in that role and you're not a supremely talented player, it would be fun at least to just be hobnobbing with Babe Ruth and Luke Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio and Bill Dickey and making the World Series every year. And probably financially speaking, it was somewhat rewarding. Maybe he got

playoff shares, which at that time was very important. And if he won the World Series, it was a big boon to players. So hopefully he got a piece of that. But yeah, it would be sad not to get into any game. I would regret not having done that. But I think I'd be happy to have been along for the ride at least. So yeah, I'm happy for those guys, I think. Yeah, I think i am too i i just have one question for you ben because this has been a fun little thing to contemplate so aren't you glad that we got this

question excellent excellent i'm a monster joe glenn according to his baseball reference bullpen page caught babe ruth and ted williams in a major league game because he was behind the plate when Ruth made his last pitching appearance. And then the only time Williams pitched in 1940, he was catching then too. So he had some stories, at least they definitely had some stories. And the only non-Yankee to have done this at least three times. So there are 10 players if you don't exclude anyone who was at one time on a World Series losing team, and nine players if you do. The funny thing, or I guess it's not really funny if you're not a Yankees fan, is that these weren't all Yankees from those 1930s teams. They're kind of spread out across the entire 20th century because the Yankees had a bunch

of dynasties. So the other Yankees with three are Todd Erdos and Jay Tesmer, two pitchers from the 98-99-2000 teams whom I remember, and then Jim Breidwieser, Bob Porterfield and Fred Sanford from the late 40s, early 50s teams, Jack Saltsgaver, he's another teammate of Jorgensen Glenn, and then Mike Gazella from the 23, 27, and 28 Yankees. The only one not to be a Yankee was Glenn Abbott, who was a pitcher who was on the 1973 and 1974 A's, and then also on the 1984 Tigers. He was on those teams, but did not play in the World Series. So he is the only exception to the all-Yankee top of the leaderboard. But I will put this list online because it's pretty interesting. And I guess there could be others who were in pre-1918 World Series. But good question and good answer from Adam.

So thanks to both of them. I also wanted to note that someone in the Facebook group posted a brief little news item. And we haven't talked about trampolines a lot lately. But Jeff often, when he was the host of this podcast, would talk all the time about the dangers of trampolines. And he persuaded me that trampolines are a public health menace. We talked to the Astros catcher, Garrett Stubbs, who had his own trampoline mishap as a child and made the majors anyway. But he does have the shortened finger to prove that he had that very terrible trampoline accident. So Jeff would always lament trampoline use, and it seems to have

been spreading. So someone posted an item from the New York Times briefing that says, beware the trampoline. Sales of outdoor equipment have surged as families try to keep their children entertained while on lockdown, but that has led to a spike in injuries from bike scooters and especially trampolines. Some ER doctors have begun referring to trampolines as orthopedic fracture machines. Many injuries occur when multiple children, especially a mix of older and younger ones, are jumping on a trampoline at the same time. So I've seen many stories and have mentioned them like this beware of trampolines but this came to mind because i saw on wander franco's instagram the other day

he was posing in front of a trampoline no of all people of all places i just sent you a link to this he's standing there like demonstrating a swing maybe to another player and there's a tee set up but lurking just behind them like the killer in a slasher movie or something. Wander, no! Is a giant trampoline and you would think that the Tampa Bay Rays of all teams

the team that employs Jeff Sullivan who works in baseball development for the Tampa Bay Rays and this is the top prospect in baseball and one of the most important people in the Tampa Bay Rays organization. And here is Wander Franco standing in close proximity to a trampoline. I really am disappointed in Jeff for not getting trampolines banned from all Rays practice facilities. for not getting trampolines banned from all raised practice facilities. Granted, this is an unusual time,

and maybe they don't have direct control over what all players are doing in the facilities where they are, but I would think if you see this Instagram post and you see Wander Franco anywhere near a trampoline, you would have to send a memo or something and say, hey, let's at least keep Wander away from this thing. We've got a lot riding on his health and safety. It appears that there is netting up presumably to keep the baseballs in this area from breaking windows or hitting children or whomever uses the trampoline.

I don't want to speculate. So Wander is protected by this netting. But yeah, Wander, we want very badly to watch you play baseball. So, you know, if the trampoline is there for the delight and amusement of other people you live with. And of course, I don't, this may not be Wander's house. This might be Eric Ibar's house, right? Yeah, I don't know where he is. Because Eric Ibar is taxier.

So perhaps it is not Wander's trampoline at all. It is Eric Eibar's. And to be clear, I would prefer he not be injured or any of his family be injured in a trampoline accident either. But yes, everyone take good care. Yes. All of you take good care because trampolines are a menace.

They're a menace. Tampoline. Tampoline. See, you did it after I did it. So it's my fault. It's like when one person yawns and then the other person yawns. Yeah. It's a lot like that.

So I think the most optimistic interpretation of this, as I weirdly snoop now on Eric Ibar's Instagram, which always feels very strange. They're public Instagrams, but it feels odd. Like, I don't know. I don't know Eric Ibar's instagram which always feels very strange they're public instagrams but it feels odd like i don't know i don't know eric ibar's it's not my business maybe this is his home yeah or some other training facility where they both yeah or right yeah we don't know we don't know where this is but wherever it is and and whoever the target audience of the trampoline is, we'd like to say, Wander, we're very excited to watch you play baseball. You are so incredibly talented.

The bat is just so absurdly good, refined, and you're so young. Please take good care. Take good care, sir. We're deeply invested in your future career. We look forward to many years of very good baseball from you so protect your prospects yeah trampolines that like that maybe under strict supervision like maybe if there's a trainer on the premises and yeah and they're overseeing some specific exercise or like there may be certain applications maybe it's not quite the same as sending your six-year-old to a trampoline park or something but sure still it's a scary

sight and one would one would imagine given how refined his approach is the bat speed that his you know he is probably better able to to bob and weave in there than a small child but still not worth risking it oh now i'm just having opportunity to revisit wander franco stat lines from 2019 i'm i oh gosh i hope there's a way for us to safely play baseball this year ben i miss it so i miss it so damn bad he just he struck out he didn't even strike out 7% of the time. The approach is so gorgeous. I just want to watch it. He's incredible. And there was at least some remote chance that we might see him at the end of the year. hug prospects right now. As an aside, we should never physically hug prospects. We don't know them. They probably don't want our hugs. We should ask if they want to be hugged, but we should metaphorically hug them and keep them safe from trampolines, in my opinion.

Agreed. All right. So we will stop podcasting and stop punning and hope that by the time we come back, there is an agreement and there are no more outbreaks and there are no more prospects cited near trampolines. Okay, before I go, producer Dylan reminds me of a scene in Idiocracy that is quite pertinent to our discussion of rectal thermometers versus oral thermometers and the importance of not mixing up the two. I'm going to play a quick clip in this scene, which I will link to. Luke Wilson is the unfortunate person getting his temperature taken.

This goes in your mouth. This one goes in your ear. And this one goes in your butt. Hurry up, asshole! Come on! Shit, hang on a second. This one. Uh. Hurry up! hang on a second this one uh

this one this one goes in your mouth so maybe that's why the Mayo Clinic decided to put that note on their page could be that someone saw Idiocracy recently certainly seems like that movie was pretty prescient in other ways all right that will do it for today and for this week thank you as always, for listening. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild.

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You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and other podcast platforms. Keep your questions and comments for me and Meg and Sam coming via email at podcast.fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. We hope you have a mostly safe and healthy and happy weekend, and we will be back to talk to you early next week. Outro Music