Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1554: Baseball Reacts to the Killing of George Floyd

Episode Date: June 23, 2020

Meg Rowley is joined by the New York Daily News’ Bradford William Davis and Baseball Prospectus’ Shakeia Taylor to discuss Major League Baseball’s response to the police killing of George Floyd and the recent Black Lives Matter protests, why the league’s statements have been so wanting, whether teams have a role to play — both […]

I can't get no satisfaction. I can't get no satisfaction. I can't get no satisfaction. I have tried, I have tried, I have tried, I have tried. Hello and welcome to episode 1554 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangraphs, and I am joined this evening by two special guest co-hosts. First is Shakia Taylor, whose work can be found most often at Baseball Prospectus. Shakia, how are you? I'm good. How are you?

I'm doing okay. We are also joined by Bradford William Davis of the New York Daily News, who also hosts a podcast at Baseball Prospectus, so be sure to check that out. Bradford, how are you doing? You know, better. Yeah. You asked me like two, three weeks ago. I'll give you a different answer, but, you know, better.

It's a strange question to be asking. I think it's one that prior to March and certainly prior to the last couple of weeks has often been a perfunctory one and is now kind of a loaded one, so sorry for starting with that. We asked both of you to join me this evening because we would like to talk about baseball's response, and we will interpret that broadly, to the murder of George Floyd and the subsequent protests in support of the Black Lives Matter movement. And so we thought that the two of you who have given really terrific insight into your own experiences in baseball have written on baseball topics that are wide ranging and certainly have been vocal in your sort of, I think disapproval at times is the

right way to frame it. And certainly frustration with baseball's sort of institutional response to this moment and that you would have some really valuable perspective and insight for our listeners. So I appreciate you both taking the time to join me. And I think that where it might make sense for us to start is to ask for me to ask this, which was, we saw baseball sort of MLB as an entity take a very long time to respond to the murder of George Floyd and the protests. And I'm curious what your reaction to the team and league statements that it put out in response to that event and the subsequent protests were. A lot of them seemed to be designed to get the orgs credit for not being racist while also not pissing off any of the racists who might root for their teams. And so I'm curious if any of

them read to you as being particularly useful or sincere. And I guess we could ask the same question of the player statements. It seems like a positive development that players seem seemingly freer to express public support for Black Lives Matter. But I don't know what role these statements do and should play and what role they serve. It struck me, at least in the early going of this, and I think some of the messaging on the part of the leak has changed in the last week or so, but in the early going, there seemed to be this very sharp contrast between tweets and press releases, while at the same time, you had people protesting and making very specific policy demands of their governments.

Of course, there were players who participated in that direct action as well. But that's a very long-winded question. But what was your reaction to the way that the league decided to sort of publicly message around George Floyd? The league's messaging to me was just PR. Yeah. Any business with any kind of savvy, you know, will immediately, or in the league's case, what was it, nine days?

Yeah. Wait to, you know, have a response to something. And I would like to think that that time was spent reflecting and not just coming up with the right words to say, but I believe that's what the time was. Just getting together the PR, making sure that the right people weren't offended by any of the statements. None of them were especially strong, in my opinion. And honestly, I don't know if they hold very much value to me personally, because I still need to see action. What is your organization's plan? What are you doing currently? Like those things matter to me. Yeah. You know, I wish I could say that like

every, that major league baseball, you know, which is an institution that I have regrettably devoted too much time to, the rest of my my life would have at least been on par with every single coffee shop you know every single place that ever had a point of sale transaction sent me an email affirming my black life mattered before me before before before major league baseball given the vagaries you know of so many of the team statements and the league statements, beyond a slogan that seems to have finally pierced through into sort of mainstream acceptance, which is an absurd thought, right? Right.

That like, you know, a class, not a class rather, but a, you know, but a, a grouping of American people, you know, actually had dignity and, you know, and value, you know, like that, that was a controversy. broken through and it still took major league baseball nine days after the killing of george floyd and the subsequent protests riots you know uprisings throughout the country to you know to to put together a statement and even in that as i recall the you know there was no identification of how they they died yeah you know like you know it's it's obviously you know it was they they mentioned the racism but you know but but i i took issue with it being called a senseless killing given that there's a very clear sort of logic and flow to how george and brianna specifically you know died and that they were they by, by, by opposite of the law. You know, the kinds of things that would actually be at least like somewhat of a bomb, you know, like to me, but also Wade perhaps offend the people who don't

sit quite sympathize as much with, with George and Brianna and Ahmad and you know, how many countless others. And yeah, so I, I, I kind of ride with Shakia in this, like, this silence is deafening. And then the statement was also deafening. Yeah, they seem to be very reluctant to specifically invoke police brutality. They seem just very nervous about verbs in general. And there was very little in terms of a commitment to action on the league's part about how they would address their own biases, how they would serve as, you know, a place in the community where there might be dialogue about this. Baseball teams are always keen to remind

us that they're civic institutions, except when they are only businesses out for profit. But there didn't seem to be a lot of there there. There seemed to be, not universally, but there seemed to be a bit more substance to many of the statements that players made. I'm curious how, as you're sitting back, not only as writers about baseball, but as fans of the game and presumably fans

of some of the players who took to Twitter to say something about George Floyd's murder and also these protests and Black Lives Matter more generally. Did that mean anything more to either of you? And obviously, you know, some of those statements were probably more effective and more forceful than others, but did that represent any kind of a sea change for you? Or did you just see that as an extension of the league's sort of desire not to offend anyone, but also not sit out too long? It's hard to say. Like, Ferguson happened, you know, during the, you know, during the baseball season. You know, Michael Brown's death is so did Freddie Gray's.

It famously led to a game being played without fans, right. You know, and the, you know, the upright, that is not, not just as his death, but the subsequent uprising because of the lack of justice being enacted, you know, there's lots of famous and horrific brutality cases and significant uprisings. I think it's, it's interesting that there seems to be some – I'm still trying to figure out why this has brought more attention and more apparent sympathy from, again, sort of like the dominant mainstream culture,

enough so that all these businesses might think that it would hurt their pockets with, you know, to not say anything. You know, it's, I hate being skeptical, but it probably, you know, protects me from getting my hopes up. And so I'd say that I'm still like, I still read this as just a curious timing for which, you know, to not even address issues of police brutality, but to acknowledge racism in present tense. I was just going to pretty much piggyback off what Bradford just said. I'm skeptical, cynical even. I just feel like, why now? Which is pretty much what he was saying. Why now? And I feel that way about the general

public. There's so many people who are in their 30s and 40s and older, and they're just now having these realizations. And it is astonishing to me. And I would be embarrassed if I were on the other side. And that's not to say that, hey, don't grow. I just wonder why now? Why did it take so long? Why did so many people have to die for people to understand that this is important? And with regard to statements specifically by players, I just want to say that I need

people to stop conveying it as being a Black person is a burden. We are okay. We are doing fine. The burden is having to deal with the racism and other things that come along with it. But the Blackness itself is not a burden. So whenever I see someone who's like, I can never know what it's like to be a black person in America.

Well, there are many facets to that. And we're not just struggling and we're not just constantly dealing with people who don't like us because of the color of our skin. We have joy and we have, you know, good moments and we have bad moments. And I feel like for so long we were viewed as just this monolithic group of people who just experiences pain. And we're not. There's so much to us. So that one thing in the statements just got under my skin. Being Black is not a burden. Dealing with races is.

that a lot of the tone of the conversations with Black players has been seemingly for them to share the worst events of their life to prove to people that racism is real. And that doesn't seem, I just wonder who that's, who is that for, right? Like the person who, you know, if someone needs to hear a horrible story to be convinced that Black people experience racism, I don't know that they're going to listen to Major League Baseball around that question, right? How would you like to see that kind of coverage sort of put to better use? Because it seems in the way that you've been talking about it, that that is another aspect of this that seems to really bother you. Oh, yeah. There are numerous ways that racism and race can be covered without

asking people who experience it to lay bare their trauma. I also think it's important to note that in these conversations, people always want to ask the person who is Black first instead of asking non-Black people because we can't do it by ourselves and it's nothing for us to keep saying what is happening. I mean, at this point, if you don't believe that racism exists and you don't believe these players like you said you're never going to and i just am kind of in the position of let's move the conversation along we know that this is happening now what what do we do does anyone have any suggestions does anyone have any plans have you opened up your wallet lately What organizations are you in touch with in your community? Like there's so many things that we could be doing other than talking about our own experiences.

What did you do after you posted that black photo to your Instagram account? Right. I say that in partial jest, but I'm also like, you know, I think that's kind of where things need to go. I'll share an anecdote with y'all. I actually shared it with Shakia a while ago. And this is me as a black journalist learning the ropes recently as not just, you know, in town in New York and just, and asking him about, you know, just kind of like, I wanted to hear more about the sort of, even the social experience of Black people in the game, you know, it wasn't excavate your trauma. It was, you know, but, but, you know, but the, but my question wasn't received well by him, you know, and he said, honestly, I'm not going to talk about it with you with you because everyone just wants everyone wants to just talk to me about race and that's it right

and you know they don't want to hear how much i love the game they don't want to hear how much you know how you know my my deep passion for this sport it's i'm just a i'm just a guy who talks about you know who talks who talks about race because a few years ago I gave some very pointed comments about race as a member of the Orioles. And it really was a gut punch at first, but I completely understand him being just completely over it, even from a young Black journalist who, again, was not asking him to recount the moment Freddie Graydie gray died or something like that you know like and so it really kind of it was really a uh sort of a paradigm

shift after i kind of like got over myself just like yeah i need to i i even need to include you know all players in that kind of journalism you know all parties not just you know, all players in that kind of journalism, you know, all parties, not just, you know, the two or three, if we're lucky, you know, black people on every team, you know, but, but, you know, but, but everyone, you know, has a sort of part in this, you know, a different part, but, you know, but, but, but a role to play nonetheless, and, and is worthy of introspection, even, even if that, even if that ends up being a no comment and them grilling me the next time they see me because I printed that no comment. Like, you know, that's kind of my job, though, you know,

providing context to the lives and realities of being a baseball player, you know, includes, you know, like having these people, you know, bear some account and testimony, you know, and insider laughter of into their lives, not just black folks. Yeah, you don't want to just talk to them about missing a curveball in their at bat from the prior evening. But yeah, I wanted to ask you about how you think we as media members should think about engaging players around activism generally and sort of questions of race in particular, because there have been many players who aren't Black who have expressed support for the movement over the last couple of weeks, but then have seemed to get

out of the way, hopefully to listen and to keep the experience of black players and people more the focal point of the discussion but i was struck by espn's draft broadcast because the only player that i saw asked about black lives matter and the protests was ed howard and his perspective and experience is obviously much more relevant than spencer torkelson's is to questions like this. But I don't want to let Spencer Torkelson off the hook either, right? Like to Shikita's point, everyone has work to do here. So I'm curious, you know, Adam Jones is one example, but have you had instances where you've talked to players about who have been sort of vocal about their activism about that experience? And what have you found to be sort of the about their activism about that experience?

And what have you found to be sort of the right balance to strike there? Well, you know, it's funny you mentioned that very astute observation about Ed Howard's interview. And were you watching ESPN coverage? Yeah. Okay, I happen to be watching MLB Network for the most part. So I missed that, but I totally believe it. But what's interesting is that there was another player, the Blue Jays' first-round pick, Austin Martin,

who actually had a more-than-an-athlete shirt on when he got drafted. And, you know, more-than-an-athlete being the slogan that LeBron James and Matt McCarter, you know, sort of coined to promote their, you know, I guess, ideal of an athlete that speaks out about things that matter, you know, not just someone who wants to shoot me the shop and dribble as a Fox News, I think most ones said, but like Austin, the irony is sort of the representation 2.0 conversation, but but Austin Martin happens to be a fairly light skinned, you know, Black person, you know, with mixed parentage. And, you know, and it's like they completely miss that he actually might want to talk about this kind of stuff.

Because he's got, you know, wavy hair and lighter skin than the people who are accustomed to Black people having. And, you know, but it kind of shows the sort of lack of sophistication in the media, you know, about handling these things, which is to say, obviously, hire more, like, you know, Black editors, writers, correspondents, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,

podcasters, whatever, right? But also, you know, like, how, if you can't, like, even, you know, consider thinking about, you know, what these other players think, and, you know, like how, if you can't like even, you know, consider thinking about, you know, these, you know, what these other players think and, you know, and really asking fair, you know, good questions about, about the way, you know, about how they understand their place in the world, given everything going on, given that they had freaking Black Lives Matter banners everywhere. Right.

You know, during the, during the telecast, as well as all the GMs hoisting those posters, like, you know, that, that shows a tremendous deficiency in the current, you know, sort of sports media, you know, based on media ecosystem. If, you know, again, the only time you decide with which to probe about race is when you see a Black person on the happiest day of his life. Right. You know, a visibly Black person, as you say, you know a physically black person to say you know someone who's very obviously african-american so i want to add here that i think asking non-black

players especially ones who are incoming their thoughts on this is super important like to the culture of baseball itself because this is a completely different generation. And hopefully this generation is not of the, you know, an extension of the one who had like, you know, a racist phase as a teenager. I think it's important that we keep those things in mind. Like we just dealt with this. So it would be nice to hear how a teenager who is coming in feels about these things, especially one who isn't a Black guy. And I think as far as interviewing the players and asking questions, I personally think many of them might be delighted to be asked about where they're contributing or nudge to even contribute if they aren't right now.

Yeah. I know it's really a thing people keep saying all the time, but baseball is so expensive. These players could be funding full teams in underrepresented communities. Free idea right there. There's so many things they could do that aren't even large. I personally have raised money for a team and help get equipment. It's not cheap. So just little things like that.

And think about kids who don't have nice parks in their neighborhood. Be vain, start a park, put your name on it. There's so many things to do to be know, to be helpful. And I think the media could steer the conversation along, right? Like ask questions about volunteer efforts, ask questions about what they would like to do. Cause maybe, you know, they won't take offense if you say, you know, is there anything you would like to do or you plan to do in the future? Right. Or have a white person talk about their experience with someone racist.

I think it's time for, I keep saying this, moving the conversation along. Let's keep doing it and the media can help and co-sign, again, hire people who look like some of the players. Those stories will get so much better. They'll get so much deeper because you have an experience involved there. I've been saying this forever and a day. The storyteller is just as important as the story, especially right now. Right. And, of course, that requires, as Shake is saying, like a real commitment to diversifying and developing

the literacy of everyone you know on these issues right oh yeah for sure like they should see it as part of their job like like with which to you know again you can't walk a mile in everyone's shoes but you should have again just be able to to carry a conversation about this and then what that you know what a lot you know a lot of the initial commentary on we saw bob nightingale's deleted tweet about how uh drafting ed howard proves that the oh my god cares about i don't know you know i don't know ending racism or something like that that was such a huge stretch. It's just, he's the best high school infielder in that draft class.

Like it's not, it's just really not hard to make the case to draft Ed Howard. He's a very good baseball player. Right. So I, yeah, it is, it is very disappointing when very prominent national media members take a moment to put their foot in their mouth on the most important night of this kid's life, right? That's because, you know, shutting up is free and readily available and people choose it so little. Like that's all you have to do is just take a moment and just shut your mouth. Yeah. I don't know.

That was such a, I remember that moment. And I think I screamed at my phone. Yeah. I mean, it was ridiculous and unconscionable. Meg, I have a question for you. Sure. Actually, one thing, you know, even sort of tying it back into sort of like what's changed, right? And, you know, obviously obviously Shakia and I have given

our perspective and insights on, you know, on confusion even, you know, and cynicism as to like, why do white people care about this now? Basically, right? Like why, or why do non-black people, why are they starting to identify or at least, you know, provide verbal support to this greater movement that has been extremely well documented for quite some time.

Yeah. But I'm curious from your end, as someone who is also in the baseball media, who is a white person, who is not, like has perhaps more proximity to the conversations that frankly I'm not always in, what's your read on what's changing? If anything? remotely to excuse the lack of action before now. I think that a lot of people are home right now. I think a lot of people who might have thought themselves to be sort of good progressives

are not going to the office every day because of COVID, and something about the length of the video, having to sit with that, and then having the opportunity to say, well, I need to put up or shut up here. And I don't have any kind of weak excuse to not participate in this because we're all just at home now. And I don't offer that as a particularly good reason that this was different than prior moments. But I think that for a certain kind of white liberal who had sort of maybe previously thought, oh, I'm a good ally, right? Like I vote for a Democratic candidate, so I'm a good ally, to realize just how insufficient and weaker response to systemic racism and the murder of your neighbors that was, I think, struck a different way this time. And it shouldn't have taken a pandemic for that to happen. But I think that that was part of

it. I think in Seattle, because I can probably speak to my own community better than other places, you know, the Seattle Police Department has been a nightmare for ever and has been under a consent decree for the better part of a decade. And so I think that this was a place that, you know, this is a place that sort of fancies itself to be very high minded and liberal, but has been pretty inactive when it comes to actually defunding the Seattle Police Department and seeking actual solutions beyond just reform. And to have people still very much homebound here, because Washington has been slow in its reopening, I think had something to do with it. But none of those are particularly good reasons. I think they helped to explain some of it, but it shouldn't

have taken all of that. In terms of the response from baseball, I think that part of the shift there, at least among the players, is I think partially attributable to what Shakira is, which is this is a generation of player. We're seeing a generation of player that is a little bit younger. A lot of the folks who have clout in the league are still, you know, in their late 20s to early 30s, but they are presumably a generation that hopefully had a different awareness and understanding of systemic racism. Although, you know, we've seen plenty of young players who said nonsense and were racist and had racist tweets to prove it in their teens. So that's not universally true. But I think that the leadership that some of the younger players

have shown who have had both a better awareness and a seemingly more acute willingness to listen to their teammates who have lived experience that's relevant might account for some of that. I don't know if any of those are actually good answers. No, I mean, I think the thing that's that, yeah, that piqued my curiosity is just like genuinely wanting to hear from other, you know, like, again, to me, Ferguson was obvious. Right. Right. Just just using the common shared experiences the most like say millennial and gen z folks right you know or x whatever right you know ferguson was obvious

you know philando castile was obvious yeah you know all of this was obvious all these names and hashtags there is where there's no gray area no you know no sort of real rationalization you know and just but but what but what led to again this seeing the sort of the turning point and and hearing it from people you know again for people more proximate to i guess you know that you know proximate to to to the people that are wrestling with this for the first time yeah it's something that as i guess as even, you know, intrigues me. Yeah. Yeah.

I imagine that, gosh, I feel bad not remembering who tweeted this. Just such compelling radio to relay other people's tweets when you half remember them. Somebody tweeted a couple weeks ago that when historians specialize in 2020 they're going to have to break it up into quarters right you're you're not even gonna take the whole year because there's just so much going on i imagine that this will be a question of academic study for a long time but i hope that it is also a question that people like me ask themselves in the much more immediate present about what why it took this in order for them to you know to go protest to donate to bail funds to finally talk to their racist uncle you know whatever it was and to have some accountability for their past complicity

so i hope that that is not a conversation we only have in the future, but I imagine it is going to be the subject of many a grad school dissertation in the meantime. I think a part of what's happening right now is for white people, this is hitting against the I'm a decent person line, right? A lot of people are like, well, I don't say the bad word, I'm not racist. I live down the street from that one guy whose family I don't actually engage with, I'm not racist. I think right now it's making people very uncomfortable. And a thing that kind of bothers me is the trendiness of saying Black Lives Matter and of posting the Black Square and of, you know, going to the protests and taking the protest photo.

So I hope that, you know, people continue to be uncomfortable, honestly. Yeah. Exactly. It's too trendy you know if rob manfred can say black lives matter and rob manfred doesn't care about anybody like who you know i mean like yeah like like then at something we're it's been it's getting sterilized to a point where it is you know like at some point then you know the the pros and cons to the ledger you know your accounting ledger as far as like do we say you know do we say that

black people shouldn't get killed has shifted to positive and you know and that's not and that i guess that that's certainly good in a narrow sense of like you know of you know of just general a general i guess a general change in attitude of people not want you know really not wanting to be perceived as racist yeah you know in a way even more than than usual which i guess is good you know and could be followed with with some action theoretically but like but but uh and also you know i i shouldn't even be so naive to as as to expect you, again, a lot of sincerity from brands. And, you know, Major League Baseball, if nothing else, is a brand. Right.

And literally nothing else is doing anything right now. Yeah. Like, then, you know, maybe that's all it is. I definitely give the side eye to the sudden popularity of a statement that usually just had people maced or fired from their workplace. Yeah. The sudden, seemingly sudden realization that we can just all agree that Black lives do matter. It's like when I was a grad school TA, I would be like, well, personal credit, but there's

more work to be done here, friend. You can't just settle for that. Yeah, I think back to, do you guys remember the first, gosh, I don't know if it was his first home game back, but the first, I think one of the early games after the All-Star break that Josh Hader pitched at Miller Park. Yep. And he got a standing ovation. Mm-hmm. And I just remember thinking at that moment, and Shakia, I think this is to your point, it's like you can't, he can't grow from this.

He's not uncomfortable. He's getting applause. He's not uncomfortable. And you can't grow when you're comfortable. Like all of the hard growth that I've done in my life has not been fun. Well, that entire situation was completely dishonest. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, we saw Trey Turner offer a tearful apology, and to my shame, I believed him. Only to have him, because he also got busted for, you know, Yeah. for lots of horrible slurs. Yeah.

And then correct me if i'm wrong but he was you know but but he certainly showed up to the white house oh he golfed with trump he golfed yes yeah he actually golfed with the president you know like after crying about you know his you know mean language to sign a buddy up with the you know the most prominent avatar of cruel rhetoric you know yeah, my man. Yeah, there are definitely still players on that team who are great fun, but the shelf life on enjoying the Nationals World Series win was shorter than I think anyone expected. Well, I want to talk for a second about kind of where the league does go from here, because, you know, it has, it does have some

initiatives, right, where it is trying to help to increase the number of Black amateur players who could potentially play Major League Baseball eventually, and to help teams hire more Black analysts and run office executives. And they have those initiatives, and they are very quick to point to a sort of sanitized version of Jackie Robinson's life and legacy to sort of remind everyone of the game's commitment to equality. But they are, I mean, it is not an inclusive league in general many front offices are staffed by you know by white often ivy league educated analysts who become gms who hire more people who look like them the scouting ranks are are more diverse than that but you know there aren't a lot of say um black heads of scouting and a lot of scouting is being phased out for mechanisms that absolutely

perpetuate racial disparities within the game. Right. When you have algorithms helping you to determine player value, you need to ask a lot of questions about the people writing them, because they're going to impute their own biases into them. But the league does seem sort of keen to be a part of this moment in its brandy sort of way. But I think we'd probably agree that they aren't particularly reliable as narrators here. So I guess what are some actionable items that, you know, we know that they need to hire and promote more black people. They need to hire and promote more people of color, more women of color. But where do they kind of fit in this conversation? And what would you like to see teams in the league doing as they are sort of spurred by this moment to do something?

Two things on the mind for me, if that's all right. The first, as far as the direct issue of like the racism within, you know, the racism, the, not the spurt of racism, but really like, you know, again, the reintroduction to the reality, you know, the reality of so many Black Americans, you know, but is to strongly, you know, publicly wrestle with the relationship with law enforcement, just like right there. I will believe that things are changing. Major League Baseball decides that, you know, we aren't doing law enforcement appreciation nights because we recognize that that is a politically controversial statement in and of itself. You know, like, forget even wrong, it's wrong to do that, which would be my position,

because I don't appreciate law enforcement. But, you know, but if they were to even get to that point, you know, that is a controversial political statement, you know, in and of itself to welcome that. And so we are opting out of that, you know, if that kind of thing was happening, that would be very intriguing to me. The second, as far as just sort of changing, you know, the biasing and racializing the pipeline would be to put the same amount of the same amount of investment that Major League Baseball has put in cultivating foreign talent, which is great, by the way, except when there's human trafficking involved. But it's great to see, to have the international flavor of that is basically baseball, but to have that same kind of investment within lower middle income, predominantly Black communities in the United States on a a soil to have that level of investment even even though you don't have a necessary necessarily a strong competitive advantage because of the nature of the mlb draft but just because it's the right thing to do

to make sure you know the access to the baseball is you know is available you know something clearly far beyond the rbi program because the rbi program has been around forever and but but so has the the gradual decline of black people in baseball but you know but but where but were there similar sorts of academies and camps you know in in our country you know geared towards you know uh cultivating black talent or or just just or just straight up appreciation in the game you know on this uh similar scale to what goes on you know again in so many Caribbean countries in Puerto Rico as well like that would be the uh the kind of thing that you know that might flip the switch for me as far as like okay this seems to be you know a genuine

desire to improve what is going on rather than you know segregate a couple of small line items for you know the sake of having a you know something you can write a PR article about twice a year? I like to take Bradford's statement about MLB looking at their relationship with the police a step further and add the military as well, because the constant need for patriotism slash jingoism is so obnoxious. And it has to stop. Those two things are totally related because people think that protesting racism

is protesting America, protesting police brutality is protesting America. So let's just cut it out. Let's just get rid of that. We don't need it. Do you really need the national anthem before every sporting event? You don't.

You don't need it. I also think instead of having all of these plans, all of these diversity initiatives, just hire somebody. Like it cannot be that difficult. And I'm being extremely sincere right now. If it takes you some grand initiative and many years to figure out how to just stop hiring white people for everything, can you really be helped? Like, these initiatives have been in place for a long time. Lately, I've been comparing it to the Cleveland baseball team, right? They've been

phasing out that mascot since I was in junior high school and I'm 37. So I think just do it already. Stop talking about it. There are tons of Black people in this country. There are tons of people of color in this country. I promise you throw a rock, you'll find somebody. It cannot be this hard. I think as far as the youth, they also should invest in education and education of all sorts. They could also invest in education for people who play currently because anti-racism is not just the idea that you're not racist. It's that you are actively not racist, that you are unlearning a lot of, you know, the crap that you know, that you are focusing on your biases. And that's really important because you're never going to affect any change if everybody just gets to say, yeah, I totally support it.

Right. Let's start doing some things. And I think those are things that they can do right now. They're completely actionable. Everything doesn't need a committee. Yeah. And Shakia, you've talked often about the sort of tone that baseball seems to try to affect on its social media. Like it seems to be in the last couple of years when baseball has tried to be cool, it affects what it thinks of as a black voice that is obviously inauthentic and sort of opportunistic. And I'm curious what you think they could be doing to sort of foster an environment that is genuinely welcoming to Black fans, rather than simply, you know,

dipping into what they think is a culture. And I'm doing air quotes because it's not some monolithic thing, right? So that they can be cool and try to further their marketing. And the answer here might also just be to continue to hire Black people. Well, yeah, that's always the answer, honestly. But to dive into that a little bit, it's such a lie. MLB, social media, the biggest swagger jackers there are.

Like these people and no shade, but all shade to them are cosplaying blackness on the internet it's like i don't know is social media blackface a thing can we call it that digital blackface is yeah definitely entirely a thing yeah it's it's so obnoxious and it's so obvious right i mean you have people using slang that probably isn't even from their area or region so they're using it incorrectly the overuse of rap music that you would be given the stink eye for actually playing at a game right it's so like could i cannot imagine what the, you know, the average baseball fan, what is it, white, male, and like 57, how he would actually feel if the Migos were just chilling next to him at a game.

Right. It's just, it's so hypocritical that these accounts are like, yeah, I'm cool. And MLB doesn't value any of us in that way. I think there is a way to appreciate Black culture without just, oh, I can't even think of a word, just killing it, just destroying it. It's not supposed to be commercial. There's this saying and i can't remember who's who said it and i apologize to the person if you hear this and you feel like i stole this from you but like everything that is ghetto for us is cool for everyone else i find that to be so interesting and i definitely air quoted the word ghetto because i would never call anybody that but that's the way it is if I

did any of the stuff that MLB social media does people would be looking at me like oh and that's and it's legitimately how I talk like I have to code switch they get to just be like me yeah you know Mike Trout's amazing but once he's like highlighted with rap music behind it it's like I think we've lost the thread here that's not my trout's not listening to that there's so many other players they could be highlighting right which is another thing that they could totally do maybe mike trout just wants to play baseball and talk about the weather yeah let him do that yeah you know there are other players out there who want to have fun you You know, you have MLB players who

get custom Jordan cleats. Let's talk about those guys. Let's talk about the gold chains. Let's talk about, let's talk about something else, honestly. Like there has to be a complete culture shift in the league and the organizations top to bottom. Yeah. And it just seems like such a wasted – it seems to waste one of the things that makes baseball so incredible. So many different kinds of human bodies can play baseball and so many different kinds of people do play baseball. And if you want to be – I mean, this is effectively wild.

Our listeners have heard us drone on and on about Mike Trout, so we are guilty of it too. There's space to appreciate Mike Trout, but if that's all you're appreciating, you're missing all of this other incredible stuff that is why baseball is great. So I don't know why they are so bad at selling their own product.

I mean, they had the blueprint in Ken Griffey Jr., right? Do we all agree? He was the coolest thing ever and they lost that entire fan base as soon as he was gone so were those people who were watching yeah ken griffey jr was cool enough to make people in new york care about seattle baseball you have to be so cool to do that we are sad up here and we're on late. Hello from Cleveland. Greetings from Cleveland. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to close with one more question about this and then I would like to ask both of you to react to some news that is relevant to the 2020 season if you're amenable.

So the last question I will ask is, well, that is about our sort of chosen topic for today, is what role and responsibility you see teams having in educating their staff and players who are not Black and how much of that onus needs to just be on individual players to decide to be good people who fight for justice. Because teams are around these guys all the time, right? And they come in as employees at a shockingly young age. So they seem to have an opportunity to affect some positive good. But as we've talked about, they have their own biases to grapple with. And those are not past biases, right? They are present now. So where do the two of you fall sort of on the spectrum there in terms of how active and involved teams should be in trying to better educate their non-Black staff and players? Yeah.

staff and players yeah shoot me uh you can tell me it's a bad question no no it's it's uh like it's necessary right but like i have to imagine i think that the problem is that the league is so entrenched in a way of doing things that like it's very difficult to have those sort of like significant shifts in like anti-racism training for example yeah as important as it because i know it's important right you know but like you know um but what but what do you do when again who think of the people who run baseball who run baseball you know it's like a bible verse how can satan cast out satan you know like how can you know people who have benefited from a sort of racist way of doing things including their own racial biases to you know to the to the system with which you know has given them the opportunity they've had, then go out and construct something that actually drives out these issues, you know?

Right. It is, you know, but that's why I don't, you know, I don't work in anti-racism training, like, I guess, right? Because, you know, I'm sure there are some more sophisticated answers to this, but it confuddles me how that, you know, how you actually do it. I think some thoughts I can offer are, I think the same way we're, you know, we talked about, you know, just going out and hiring, you know, more, you know, different people. It's really giving them the ability to shape and speak and give, you know, provide insight into, you know, into how things are done

and how they can change, you know, not just, again, not just lip service, not just their own committee, as Shakia said, not just their own, you know, sort of funnel or small domain with a big, you know, MLB picture, you know, but real, you know, authority over how the entire, authority over how the entire, you know, system operates, you know, I, you know, I, I don't care, you know, I, I, I'm familiar with, you know, things like major league baseball diversity fellows program, you know, but like, and that's, I'm glad that there is a very narrow pipeline to which a couple of people to get entry-level jobs that are, that pay competitively in front offices, but like, but that can't be, you know, but if that's just it, that's not really going to provide enough people

with which to catch bigger systemic issues within how the game is operated. Right. That's all I got right now. This is a hard question. One that I feel like everyone should try to think about and answer to, but I'll say this. I think what the league could do as far

as, you know, I guess teaching, punishments, harsher punishments. If you actually learn what zero tolerance means and then you execute it, you send, I think, stronger messages. It shouldn't be, he was young. We all go through that phase where we drop the N-word. No, we don't, bruh. No, we don't. Everyone doesn't go through a racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic. Everyone doesn't go through that. And I think we need to start letting people know that it's not acceptable. So maybe instead of, I'm going back to 2019, instead of suspending Tim Anderson, a Black man, for using it, how about suspending everyone else for using the N-word? Let's make it a thing. It have to, it can't just be

an apology and you're done. If you're a racist, if you are any of those other things I mentioned, then something happens to you. We can't tolerate it on some we are the world shit. Like we have to do something. The league has to take action. I think sitting on your hands says more than doing something. I'd rather them do hands says more than doing something. I'd rather them do something and make a mistake than just not do anything. Yeah, right. And even jumping off that, the 2019 Tim Anderson situation is like a perfect example of being able to reevaluate power, right? And have people to speak into how power is used and operated and, you know, and, and how decisions get made and how, you know,

processes get developed. MLB knows it. I think MLB has to know that at the very least on the PR level, they have to bad with Tim Anderson because a lot, because there were, there were, there was a lot of blowback to that to every part, every part of that situation, you know, from the, from the hypocrisy of the situation you know from the from the hypocrisy of the let the kids play thing uh to the oh wow it's because you said the n-word you know

we can't let that happen you know except for josh hater trade her trade turner and like you know a other white relief bitches like you know said it in college or whatever you know but then who suspended tim anderson who made that call maybe that person should be should be reviewed right you know the point I made actually when I when I wrote about it was like you know why is no one talking to Joe Torch about this like you know how could you possibly you know how it's a it's egregious you know we tone deaf and shows a it shows a disconnect you know with a dwindling but you know but still real percentage of your fan base and your you know and the people who play the game like you know but 70 year old white guys don't get discipline unless they are and unless john boy chops up a video of

them science killing. So, you know, it's just, but again, that would, you know, but again, that means democratizing power and,

or, or yeah, democratizing power is right. But, but also just, you know, providing new insights with which to determine how things are done in the future on a, you know,

on a big picture level, not just the diversity forum and the junior series. Well, I really appreciate you both taking the time to join me this evening. While we were talking, it appears that we are going to have baseball this year. The league is waiting for the union to respond on a couple of questions, but it would appear that we are slated to have a 60-game schedule that the commissioner is mandating. How much of that schedule ends up getting played

as a result of the pandemic, I think, obviously, is very much up in the air. But it was kind of a bummer of a question to end on, or maybe not. Maybe your answers will surprise me. But are you guys excited for baseball in 2020? I feel very conflicted about its presence as a fan and a media member. I kind of can't believe that we are going to attempt this in the midst of a pandemic. Never mind the sort of unwelcome distraction. It might provide some people from more important issues they should be paying attention to right now. Absolutely not. We're not excited about baseball. Just to be honest, just for so many reasons, so many reasons, I don't think it's going to be safe.

I would prefer that, you know, people don't die for entertainment. I don't agree with it because people have been equating the return of baseball with people forgetting that they're unemployed. people have been equating the return of baseball with people forgetting that they're unemployed. The idea that sport is going to save the world is so ridiculous. I also think that this is just a precursor to worse things happening. This doesn't bode well at all in any area, nor the health of the league yeah yeah i mean like as someone you know and you know you may you know we'll probably identify this at least on our own personal financial level it would be certainly nice to have sports back yeah it's for the future of our

of our respective publications you know yeah. A New York tabloid that we're tons of crazed baseball fans. But no ad money being spent. And a baseball website. But there's so many problems. Lauren Walker really put this Twitter homie of mine, probably some people might know of her, but she's, you know, very smart baseball Twitter friend. But she said

very simply, we didn't take COVID seriously and now we can't have sports. Yeah. And that's it. Like as a country, like, you know, we're pushing the cart before the horse. We, you know, a coronavirus is still raging in so many places, including many, you know, many major league baseball markets in Florida, Texas, Arizona, you know, Southern California as well. It's not doing especially well with coronavirus. So that's, you know, Dodgers, Angels, Padres. Like, this is still a big problem. Padres, Angels Padres, like this is still a big problem. And so, you know, Major League Baseball, so many different power brokers in this, you know, had opportunities with which to, I think, use the platform that they had to really, truly flatten the curve, you know, in this country. Like, like, Major League Baseball has all this testing power, right?

Like thousands of tests you could process, over 10, 10,000 a week as some of the ESPN report, you know, Dan Hanlon, I think bragged about, you know. Right. Like, great. Give them all to, you know, the place, the places affected by coronavirus, you know, until take that, take that very small financial hit temporarily, write it, write it off. As I'm sure people will have to, I'm sure Richie will have to do, and actually create the fertile ground for which sports can be played. But instead,

we're treating sports as the vaccine rather than actual medicine or testing or tracing or whatever. It's clear Rob Manfred has Marco Rubio and Mitch McConnell to prominent especially against McConnell extremely powerful politicians in this country and instead of saying we're not going to play, we're not going to

pawns in this game to get you distracted from the current social political realities of your negligence, you need to start doing stuff better or we're not going to send our players out there, our players and coaches and for opposite reasons or whatever, into this danger zone you've created. But instead, no, they're acting as surrogates for Major League Baseball's clearly economically motivated interests, only economically motivated interests, to resume baseball as soon as possible, exactly on their

terms. It's infuriating. And I haven't even gotten to Major League Baseball being a potential solve or distraction for social unrest in this country right what basically margaret margarubio said you know not just not the social rest from the coronavirus coronavirus but the social rest unrest from the racism and so it's even you know even before that conversation which baseball clearly isn't ready to have you know at least nba is having it but you know it's just not it's not fun and then and then even just the the pure aesthetics of the game like you know baseball is better than no baseball but baseball fans is like not that cool.

I'm watching these Korean games, and I know a lot of people are really into it. I see everyone posting pictures of Swole Daddy, the NC Dinos, mascot, whatever. But I don't have the same connection when I don't hear the crowd roaring when someone hits a dramatic home run or gets a dope strikeout or something like that.

And, you know, it's just so much. The health and safety protocols, you know, aren't, have clear vulnerabilities in the amount of testing, you know, being done. So, you know, so even with that, like, I'm not sure if it's, even if the curve was flat and I'm not sure it would be that safe because there are clear permeabilities within each of these 30 stadium bubbles that aren't really bubbles. I hope no one gets critically ill or dies, but there's no reason to really believe that anyone is particularly safe by doing this. Or even just has a career-altering complication as a result of contracting this, right?

We just don't know very much about the long-term ramifications of contracting COVID, even if you're young and otherwise healthy, right? Like, I don't know, it's weird. It's like everyone watched Jaws and was like, the mayor is the hero of this story. They took the wrong lessons from that. Well, that is a bummer of a story. I just took the wrong lessons from that. Well, that is a bummer of a topic.

We will have you both back on the show to discuss your work at a later date when hopefully we can all both muster some enthusiasm for baseball and feel good about doing so. But in the meantime, Shakia, where can folks find your work? Do you have anything over at Baseball Perspectives you'd like to plug right now? Nothing current. I'm writing something, working on, we have a project going that's called What Jackie Knew. I am one of seven Black writers who is working on the project. So we're basically just taking Jackie Robinson's columns and writing answers or letters or whatever in the present day. So I think that's going to be really interesting. Yeah. And there's a photography component to it too, right?

Yes. There is a photographer from Toronto named Jelani Morgan. All of the pieces will be accompanied by one of his photos. He is a black photographer and he photographed a little boy playing baseball by himself. It's the most beautiful photo set. Wonderful. And where can folks find you on Twitter? At Curly Fro. I am on there all day,

even when I shouldn't be. I think we can all say that. And Bradford, what do you have coming up? Man, you know, nothing too crazy in the last few days, but I have sort of adopted this health beat to covering sports because I think it's been handled so poorly on a lot of levels, from, as I mentioned, politicians to baseball executives and owners and stuff, to even the media, I think is has covered it really poorly and so uh they'll you know now

that we have a season there will be much more with which to dissect and so I guess watch watch my space which is twitter and uh my handle is uh underscore uh b eE-W-I-L-L-Y. It's the worst Twitter handle ever, but if you read it out, it's B-Willie. It's a bad handle. Your stuff has been great, even though I am sad that you've had occasion to write it. So, well, once again, thank you both so much for joining me, and we'll talk to you again soon. Thanks. All right.

That'll do it for today. Thank you for listening. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some small monthly amount to help keep the podcast going and get access to a few special perks. Thanks to Farhan Arif, Dan Wiley, Regina Hoggle, Sammy Lamba, and Patrick Heal. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild,

and you can rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and other podcast platforms. Keep your questions and comments for me, Sam, and Ben coming via email at podcast at fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you're already a supporter. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance and thanks again to Bradford and Shakia for joining me. Ben and I will be back with another episode a little later in the week. Until then, be well and please wear a mask.