Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1611: Feats of Clay

Episode Date: November 3, 2020

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley remind their audience to vote, then banter about this year’s selection of qualifying offers and what the Rays declining Charlie Morton’s option for 2021 signifies for the free-agent market (if anything) before answering listener emails about front-office parity and what teams can do to differentiate themselves from each other, and […]

So do it now, do it now, while your vision is clear. Do it now, while the feeling is here. If you leave it too late, it could all disappear. Do it now, while your vision is clear. Hello and welcome to episode 1611 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangraphs and I am joined as always by Ben Limburger the ringer. Ben how are you? I'm doing okay. Yeah man. I can't be any more effusive than that I don't think. Yeah it's it's a weird week. We are going to talk about baseball stuff today because this is a baseball podcast but we are recording this on Monday, November 2nd.

But in case you're listening to it on Tuesday the 3rd, which is election day, I would just like to ask people to vote. Voting is not the end of very important diligence and activism that we should all be engaging in as people living in a democracy. I think that the cries that you have heard probably from every person and brand that you have encountered in the last month to vote can be sort of unsatisfying to people because I think

that we are aware of the great many people in this country who are not allowed to vote. We are aware of the very active efforts to stymie people's right to exercise their franchise. And we are aware that voting is necessary, but not sufficient. I don't think that it'll probably surprise people listening to this podcast to learn that my politics tend to lean toward the left and I have voted for democratic mayors in Seattle and that has not stopped them from enacting policies that I find to be wanting or to disregard the needs of communities of color in Seattle. So it is not sufficient. I don't want to be another one of the many, many white women imploring people to vote and then leaving it at that.

We have a lot of work to do as a country to take better care of one another, and it does not stop tomorrow. And we are unlikely to know the results of our election, both at the federal level and locally tomorrow. But if you are in a position to vote, please do so. You can listen to this podcast while you're in line. Yeah, take us to your polling place.

Take us to your polling place. We'll keep you company online. Yeah, we're happy to do that. We have an extensive back catalog of episodes that you can listen to if you need a distraction while you are there. But it is deeply important. It is far more important than this podcast. Fangraphs is going to be dark for the election day tomorrow to give our staff time to vote

and volunteer. And so we hope that you will vote if you are able and that you will support people in your communities who are continuing to organize and try to enact improvements where you live so that we can all take better care of one another. And it starts tomorrow, but it certainly doesn't end there, but it does start there. So we hope that you have a plan to vote and that you will take advantage of the many resources available to you to understand how to do that where you live because it does very disappointingly wildly. It was very easy for me to vote in Washington, but I sadly am part of a fortunate minority when it comes to that in this country. So if you're in line on election day, can't turn you away, don't let them, and please vote.

Yep. Second to all of that, and hopefully you've already heard it a hundred times and you've taken it to heart. And we're preaching to the choir here. But just in case, if you're listening to this when we put it out, you still have time. And it's pretty important. So take us with you or press pause and go vote and come back. And we'll still be here. I promise.

So my wife has already voted and didn't have a hard time, fortunately. And I will be voting right after we record this, actually. So, yeah, just go do it. And even if you're a single issue voter and your issue is baseball, I think you should probably still because it might have an impact on whether there's baseball next year or what form that takes. So I think even though this is a baseball podcast, real life, to the extent that baseball is different from real life, has intruded on baseball in many ways this year and on the podcast as well. And so I think it's something that hopefully you have all already considered. But just in case it helps to hear your friendly neighborhood baseball podcast hosts say the same thing that everyone else is saying, please go vote. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So. So we're going to talk about some baseball

stuff. Because that's what this podcast is. And because we are not yet in a fetal position on the floor with election anxiety. So here we are. We'll have a soft spot for Clay Bellinger, father of Cody Bellinger, but before he was known as the father of Cody Bellinger, he was known as a Yankees utility player who was with the team when I was watching them growing up. And I have sort of a fondness for him because he signed the first I was a kid, and he signed it, and I think I still have it somewhere. I tweeted a picture of it a few years ago, and I'm not really an autograph guy. Are you an autograph person? I sort of gave it up not long after that. You know, I never really was an autograph person. I understand the allure of the autograph, and I have baseball keepsakes, which I think that, you know, if you're not in the competitive autograph market,

if you are not pursuing autographs as a means of enriching yourself monetarily, I think that, you know, I have little knickknacks and keepsakes that occupy that same spot. But no, I was never really a strong autographer. I think I probably have a couple things that are autographed. I have a Dan Wilson autographed baseball, which is valuable to me. Yes. As a person who loved watching Dan Wilson catch as a young person. But I can't imagine that I could send

anyone to college on the sale of that. No, same for my Clay Bellinger, Paul. I don't know if it's appreciating because of Cody's accomplishments, but- You know, it might be. Maybe, yeah. The reason I care about Clay Bellinger is not just because of that fleeting personal connection, which I think that's the nice thing about autographs. If you got it firsthand, if there was some interaction that went along with it and that autograph helps you remember meeting that person and being in their presence and maybe some little exchange that you had with them, that's nice. Bought it from afar and never saw the person. Not as special in my opinion, although I get why there's still an appeal to having something that that person held and interacted with in some way. Anyway, if you like autographs, that's great.

I kind of gave up on it just because it almost made me uncomfortable to ask for them. I mean, obviously, like as a writer, you can't do it even if you wanted to. But even when I was a kid, it just, I don't know, it felt kind of awkward or like I was imposing. I mean, that's like a traditional thing for baseball players to sign for kids. There's nothing wrong with that. But I just felt like, I don't know, having to implore them or yell at them or ask them to stop and thrust things for them to sign and hand them a pen or whatever. It just always felt like, I don't know, I just always kind of felt awkward about it. And then in spring training,

they're like professional autograph hounds who are hounding them for those autographs alongside the kids. And it just wasn't really something that I wanted to continue doing. So I don't have a huge autograph collection, but I do have my Clay Bellinger ball. Anyway, I like Bellinger because he made the majors when he was 30 years old. He was one of these like minor league lifers seemingly. And yet he finally broke through and he broke through with the late 90s Yankees. And he played for four major league teams. That is, he played four years in the majors and each of the teams that he appeared on went to the world series and three of them won the world series and so despite having only 183 games played 344 career point appearances and just those four seasons he has three world series rings which is pretty impressive

he is a proven winner clay bellinger so i wanted to have him on just to talk about that unusual career path. And then also, of course, talk about Cody and what the experience of watching Cody's team was in the past few weeks and comparing and contrasting the current Dodgers with the late 90s Yankees. And also he's become a firefighter in his post-baseball life, which is pretty interesting. So he'll be on later this episode. But before we get to that, I guess there's a little bit of news that we can discuss. Yeah, we had the deadline for qualifying offers come and go this weekend. And there were six players who were tagged with a qualifying offer. I think several of whom were expected,

but some of whom were kind of a surprise. So JT Realmuto, George Springer, Trevor Bauer, and DJ LeMayhew all received qualifying offers, along with Marcus Stroman and Kevin Gausman. And Ben, I don't know about you. I always feel a little bit odd about qualifying offers generally, and I think in this year in particular,

and JJ Effie touched on this in his piece for Fangraphs today. On the one hand, I think that there being so few players and some of the players who did not receive qualifying offers make you a little nervous that they make me a little nervous that this is another sign that we're going to have a cold free agent market. But I also can never be mad that players don't get tagged with a qualifying offer because the draft pick compensation that comes with a qualifying offer often serves to, whether it should or not, sort of limit a player's market. Not for a guy like Real Muto or Springer or Bauer, who I think we expect to have what will count as robust markets in a year like this, but certainly for players who are sort of

maybe a tier below that in free agency, you just worry that we will have a repeat of what we've seen in years past where someone like Craig Kimbrell or Dallas Keuchel were sort of forced to wait out the period in which draft pick compensation is relevant and signed very late. So it's always kind of a weird one because we don't want players to face any sort of friction in the free agent market because teams, when armed with an excuse to offer less, will often do so. But, you know, it seems sort of strange that, say, even with a robust shortstop free agent market in next year's class, that the Phillies were uninterested in extending a qualifying offer to Didi Gregorius. Like, that seems a bit odd to me.

I was sort of surprised that Tanaka didn't receive one from the Yankees, although they have been historically pretty stingy with their QOs. So it's just another set of sort of disconcerting tea leaves to read. But yeah. Yeah, it is a record low number of qualifying offers, six. So that is somewhat concerning and fits in with what we were talking about, about options being declined or players being placed on waivers and lots of reports about potential non-tenders coming up of players who would be eligible for arbitration. prices for them. So I think if you look at the candidates as Jay did in his article, like it doesn't seem like the quality of players who got it or didn't get it doesn't seem wildly out of line with past years, I think is what he concluded. But yeah, there are some that make you raise your eyebrow a little bit. And I don't know, like Michael Brantley or Marcus Semyon or a few others you mentioned Gregorius and Tanaka but there are a few that you think maybe in a different market

they might have received them and then there are a couple like I don't think Stroman was a lot to get one and he'll have sort of a decision to make I don't know whether he will end up taking that or not. Maybe that depends on the market as well. I think he's made some maybe somewhat critical comments of the Mets or comments that could be construed as critical or as saying that he would want to test the open market. But Mets have new ownership now and circumstances have changed. So who knows? And then I guess the biggest surprise was gossman who a lot of people were probably surprised to see his name there and i think he was uh at 14th on craig edwards ranking of the top free agents so there were better free agents according to craig

who did not receive qualifying offers who were eligible to get them. And I guess with Gossman, he's had a very up and down career, but he has been quite effective lately since he was picked up by the Reds in 2019. He was good for them. He was very good for the Giants this year. And those are somewhat small samples, but he's always been kind of a promising pitcher and has been good at times. So maybe he has put things together and the Giants are banking on that. And you might see some of these players and teams work out extensions so that they do not accept the qualifying offer, but do end up staying with that team. Yeah. I think Gausman is a particularly strong candidate for that. And I wouldn't be surprised if Stroman ends up taking the qualifying offer just to have a, you know, he's such an unusual free agent case because he didn't pitch at all this year. Although I'll be curious to see what the consensus emerges as among players in terms of how much better they anticipate that market being.

Presumably, if teams are able to put fans in stands at some point during the 2021 season, hopefully the revenue picture looks a little bit better. But I don't think that off seasons that come with CBA negotiations are famous for big contracts. Although he is a very good pitcher. And if he puts up a good 2021, he might be sort of one of the better potential starting pitcher free agents in that class. So I talked about this with Craig on Fangraphs Audio, but on the one hand, some of this is just going to be determined by what is causing a player to want to retest the market in a year. You have someone like James Paxton who was hurt and so wants to establish a season of

clean health. But you really can't view these markets as unrelated to one another because of the sort of broader structural concerns that are at play and certainty that I think we hope will be somewhat resolved by an improvement in our pandemic response. But it also seems like a kind of foolish bit of optimism to assume that things will be a lot better. I don't know. Yeah, right. That's the thing with this market as a whole. It's like, you can criticize the owners, I think, for maybe exaggerating how hard hit they were in 2020 or how that impairs their ability to spend. But if you're going into next year, looking at another year of no fans in the stands, and I hope that things will have changed enough by that point right that that won't be the case like maybe whether it is the case or not they'll just go ahead and do it because they just had fans in the stands for

the playoffs at the end there so if they were comfortable doing that then then you know fast forward another six or seven months and and maybe things will have changed to the point that uh they will go ahead with that regardless of where things stand. But also, hopefully, we have a vaccine and hopefully we have learned from some of the mistakes of this year. And maybe it will be be as low as 2020, but you're not going to project a bounce back to 2019 either. So that's one of the things. I just think the uncertainty of it all probably makes it tough for them to come up with accurate revenue projections and probably they will just kind of err on the side of less revenue and therefore not spent, which is unfortunate. But I think it's partly just an unwillingness to take any sort of loss, like even for a year, even if you're constantly winning year after year, if you're a major league owner and your franchise is

appreciating all the time. But if you have one down year, it's an existential threat. I think partly it's that, and partly it's just that it really is a tough situation. And players were getting paid a certain amount based on pre-pandemic revenues. And now we're not going to have those revenues for the foreseeable future. So you would expect some sort of downturn. So it's hard to say how much to blame it on owners being cheap and how much to blame it on just 2020 and 2021. But it can probably be a little bit of both. And it makes interpreting some of the other signs that we have received in the early going a little bit tricky.

Also, I guess this is probably a good time for us to talk about the charlie morton conundrum yeah right charlie morton what a conundrum yeah so charlie morton one of the best pitchers in baseball over the past few years and now a free agent now a free agent ray has declined their 15 million dollar option on him for 2021 just a couple weeks after he was pitching really important games for them in the playoffs and just an important bit of timing to recall did so like two hours after my top 50 free agent post i i had asked the world to hold off on option decisions until after the post went live and the monkey's paw that is 2020 was like, well, fine, Meg, but you should be more specific in your requests, I think. Yeah, so they

declined his option. Ben Clemens wrote about this decision for us today. I don't think that interpreting the decision to decline his option through the lens of the raise in any way negates the broader concerns we have about what the market's going to look like this winter. And Ben didn't either, to be clear. But Charlie Morton specifically and the raise generally are sort of an odd case because they have run a bottom five payroll for the last decade. Charlie Morton is very good, but also aging, but not really showing much in the way of signs of decline, but has also indicated that he might be open to retirement if he doesn't go back to the Rays.

So I think that we can safely say that the Rays in 2021 will be a better team with Charlie Morton than without him. But I don't know what all to make of what his option being declined means for like the dodgers yeah i think that any move toward paying players less is probably not good in the aggregate but the rays are a very funky case and we say that they're a funky case not to excuse them for their their impulse toward auster, which I guess we have to say, but it is such a well-documented impulse and such an extreme one that even players who enter very team-friendly arbitration years, team-friendly on a relative basis to what they can earn once they actually become free agents and can negotiate with all 30 teams, often find themselves on the losing end of things with Tampa and find themselves playing for different teams after they get past those very team-friendly pre-ARP salaries. So it's a funky

one. And I think the fact that this is neither here nor there, but the fact that Charlie Morton did not grace our top 50 free agent post because we just assumed that he would have his option exercised should be used by Jeff as evidence that he does not leak inappropriately to me. If ever he needs to demonstrate that, he can say, but here, look. Yeah. So Morton, as Ben pointed out in his post like he lost some velocity but also he gained some of it back over the course of the season and also also it seems like he's still just about as effective when he's throwing a little softer than when he's throwing

harder so i don't know that there's that much reason to be pessimistic about him for 2021. And there's the whole saying of like there's no such thing as a bad one-year deal. And certainly there's not if it's $15 million for Charlie Morton, I think. And I saw something where the raise Eric Neander said that the decision to decline it was based on the salary but that they planned to be, quote,unquote creative and would like to work something out if morton wants to return so creative being a euphemism for frugal or whatever word you want to substitute there but maybe they just feel like because he has considered retirement because he lives nearby and because it seems like maybe if he plays he'll only want to play with the rays they might just have the leverage

there where like you know I don't know if them declining this option makes him more likely to retire like I don't know how much a difference of a few million dollars is really important to Charlie Morton at this point in his career and maybe it is maybe he'll just figure well it won't be worth my while or maybe he'll want to come back enough that they can work something out and they kind of have him where they want him because he's nearby and he won't want to go anywhere else. So that could be part of it too. But yeah, you're right. Because it's the Rays, I think have picked up the option and tried to trade him. for a year of Charlie Morton because maybe there are teams out there that would pay 15, I'm sure, and there are teams out there that might pay a bit more than 15. But if it's not a big enough

difference, then it's probably not worth it for them to pick it up and try to trade him. So I guess that maybe tells you something, but probably doesn't tell you that much. Well, and I think this is where his potential plan to retire and the ambiguity that's been introduced to that timeline probably impacts the decision. Again, I assume that the Rays know more about Charlie Morton's retirement plans than we do. But I suppose that when you have a player on record as saying, well, I might just retire, that that might complicate his trade market in addition to any other market that he might participate in. So yeah, it's kind of hard to know exactly what's what there. But I hope that Charlie Morton finds a fair deal for his services and the quality of his pitching, which is still quite good. And I hope that he does pitch another year because I would hate for that last world series start to be our sort of final image of him you know because he we we talked about this

at various points on our patreon broadcast listen along live stream narrowcast narrowcast whatever you know our patreon hangout time that happened to coincide with a playoff game i don't know people know that we're not trying to break the rules but this feels important to say anyhow that he is just one of the more aesthetically pleasing pitchers to watch and i think that is true just on its own regardless of the team that he's pitching on but i think he is also kind of welcome breath of fresh air from some of the other starters that the Rays have particularly Snell who I should say like you know that that final start he had in the World Series was delightful and he is a great pitcher but he can be kind of plodding in his pace and so

I think that Morton is made all the more fun to watch by virtue of some of his rotation mates. I hope that it has not been the last go, especially because I have yet to really, just really land a Morton Salt Girl joke. I just haven't quite gotten it to like, I haven't walked away being like, got it, did it. That one stuck the landing. I haven't done it yet, and I'd like another year to try. I had an ex who went as the morton salt girl for halloween one year yeah it was it was not a costume that you see

all that often no it was not a costume that i got the sense that a lot of people recognized no there is a lot of explaining what she was but uh yeah all right so we figured we would do a couple emails here before we bring on Bellinger. So this one is from Matthew, a Patreon supporter. He says, But that the Dodgers had more resources And also didn't have to deal with the Yankees and Red Sox You also mentioned the Yankees, Red Sox And Orioles all hiring or having Very data inclined GMs or President of baseball operations

This led me to wonder if you think we will Reach a point where all teams have comparably Smart organizations or if you Think we're close to there now What would the league look like at this point Would the advantages that smarter organizations Gain over other teams become smaller? Would larger market teams have the only advantage left due to their spending ability?

Even if we have the 30 smartest possible teams, there's the same amount of wins and losses available, so we may not even notice. I think that the level of—how do I want to say this? I think that there's never been more parody in terms of how savvy organizations are than there is right now i still think that there are teams that really distinguish themselves when it comes to i think player development is where we're really starting to see the gap widen but i do think that there are teams that still have a bit of, they're still a bit ornery and they employ analysts, but maybe listen to them less than some other teams do. So I think that there's a good deal of parity.

I think that teams are going to continue to seek out advantages. But as we've discussed many, many times on this podcast, because they can still hire people away, those advantages don't seem to stick for too terribly long. I think that health and recovery and injury prevention, particularly for pitchers, is probably the next frontier where a team could really, really distinguish itself. But yeah, I think we notice the difference because we know that every team has an analytics

group, although they are staffed to varying degrees. But we still see organizations that routinely make kind of funky decisions on field, which suggests that they have a good smart analyst, but maybe the communication between the coaching staff and the front office isn't smooth or what have you. So, yeah. What do you think, Ben? I think teams are smarter than ever, and I'm using that kind of in air quotes because we could all disagree about what smart means. But I think that they've gotten more sophisticated, certainly more data-driven. One of the reasons I wanted to write the MVP machine was that I felt like that was something that was really separating some teams and still is to some degree. I think there was a lot of

parity with sort of Moneyball era innovations as of several years ago. And then this player development revolution got started, and I think that enabled a bigger gap between some teams. And I think that gap has closed somewhat as teams poach from those early adopters, or as just everyone realizes that there's a big advantage to be gained there and gets on board. So I think maybe there is less parody than there was several years ago, like at the tail end of the Moneyball, but pre-player development revolution era. But I think there's probably more and more parody all the time now. And it's tough. I was thinking about it this weekend because the Mets new owner, Steve Cohen, was on Twitter and he was soliciting advice or requests from Mets fans.

He said, I anticipate closing the deal in the next 10 days and then it's off and running. And he asked people what they want him to do, basically you know is that just a pr thing where he just wants mets fans to feel like they have a voice and that the new guy is different from the old guys maybe maybe he's actually listening like there were some kind of amusing exchanges where someone would be like we should have old timers days and cohen was like done we'll have old timers days and Cohen was like, done, we'll have old-timers days. So, you know, good PR regardless. And he's probably not setting most of the team's policy based on Twitter responses. But I don't know what I would advise an owner to do other than what it seems like Cohen has at least indicated a willingness to do, which is use his vast wealth at a time when it seems like a lot of owners will

not be. It seems like ownership, I think differences in ownership matter much more than differences in front offices now. Maybe they always have, but I think especially in this era where you do have every front office has an R&D department and is aware of all these things and is putting sabermetric principles into play, no one is as far behind on that as they used to be. And the laggards are way ahead of where they were 10 or 20 years ago. So now I think a big part of the difference is, is your owner going to let those people do their work? And is the owner going to invest? And there have been a lot of teams that wanted to do more player development stuff. But, you know, they have budgets in baseball ops.

And owners sometimes will draw the line at things that you wouldn't think they'd draw the line at. And, you know, when it comes to, like, we want to buy these high-speed cameras or we want to hire an extra coach at each level or whatever, things that are not huge differences to a baseball team's bottom line, but an owner may say no. And in the long run, that's probably short-sighted. And even if you're just looking at it from a revenue perspective and the profits that come from developing a good player and the surplus value and all of that, I think a lot of them have been short-sighted in that area. them do what they want to do, or whether it's just what he's done with not laying off a whole lot of people and restoring them to their pre-pandemic salaries, which again is a drop in

the bucket compared to his net worth. It's like $7 million, I think was a figure I saw cited, and he's worth, what, $14, $15 billion or something. I mean, it's chump change to him, and yet it's also chump change to a lot of other owners and they haven't spent it. So I think at this time when a lot of teams are cutting back and not making those investments, if you can make those investments, that's going to be an obvious edge for you. And like the conversation that we had last week about La Russa and the White Sox, I mean, I don't know how much that will set them back, but it's almost irrelevant what their R&D department recommends about in-game tactics or whatever if you're going to have the owner come in and say, I'm going to hire Tony La Russa,

who may or may not listen to anything you're saying. So I think that is really important, and it's not something that fans can control, and it's not something that fans can control and it's not something that front office people can control, but it does have a big impact on your team's success. Yeah, I would like it very much if the cutting edge, the market inefficiency, the great move that every team could exploit is just like treating people like people. Yeah. team could exploit is just like treating people like people yeah it would be pretty cool if the way that an owner decides to distinguish an ownership group and a principal owner decides to distinguish themselves is to say no we're gonna like treat people well that's our competitive edge is we're gonna pay them good fair salaries we're to have their backs in moments of crisis. We're going to empower them to do cool stuff in the organization because they're going to be able to focus on that

rather than worry about their advancement being stymied or their contracts expiring or being furloughed and messed about with their salary. That would be that would be really cool because uh you know we both know a lot of people who work for teams and i wouldn't mind that being like a guiding principle in their lives yeah yeah so really it's and often these very small expenditures can make a big difference and like do people want to work for your team like Like, you know, if you stiff all your minor leaguers or you fire all your scouts or something, then maybe some highly coveted executive who you want to be your GM will choose some other team that has not been so penny pinching when it comes to those things and to treating people in the organization well. So I think that is something people notice, you know, if you've behaved like, I don't know, the Twins or the Royals this year, as opposed to the A's and the Angels, you know, like some of the teams that have really been more aggressive in cost cutting.

I think that is something that people pay attention to and you can maybe get the cream of the crop. So I think those are things and, you know, maybe diversity is something that can be a separator in front offices. Like if you are only hiring one type of person from one demographic, maybe that limits you. Aside from any moral value to hiring from a broader base, there just may be more creativity, greater perspective, things that you don't get if you're only pulling from the same pool over and over again so yeah for sure there's still ways that

you can make a difference i think yeah i think that there are a lot of sort of player specific player development player health changes that or innovations that might be coming that can make a big difference for teams just in keeping guys on the field but i think that those are going to be hard they are limited by the fact that you just have guys doing the same motion over and over throwing a ball 100 miles an hour and there are a lot of other low-hanging fruit there's a lot of other low-hanging fruit that would be Beneficial to organizations and as you said just it's just so cheap relative to the overall budgets that these organizations have and it means very little to the profitability of those

organizations from ownership's perspective. And it's the difference between someone like, you know, making rent and not. So it seems like if I were an owner and I recognize that this being my perspective is one of the many, many reasons why I'm not in a position to own a major league baseball team. But if I were an owner, I'd look around and say, who knew that I could get better so cheaply? What a gift. Yeah.

All right, and let's end with one more. This is from Jason in Sacramento. He says, I'm listening to your discussion on episode 1609 about how much baseball suffers without the main character of the starting pitcher. Third times through the order and how Ben was saying he was perhaps warming to the idea of limiting pitching staffs and jason recommends nate silver's plan for that which i think was restricting rosters to only 10 pitchers or something that was maybe

before rosters expanded to 26 but that's the general idea just capping it more strictly than it is currently capped jason continues anyway my question is about a world where we limit pitching staffs so that starters are expected to go longer. In that world, does the third time through the order effect remain the same? Right now we live in a world where we notice that the third time through the order

is worse for pitchers and the obvious solution was take that pitcher out and put in a reliever. But if we noticed that effect in a world where there wasn't a realistic option to put another pitcher in, then would starting pitchers start changing how they approach that third time?

What innovations would front offices develop to try to ensure this penalty was as low as possible? Would starting pitchers start holding back a pitch for that third time? Would they develop more pitches so that they could have more options that third time? Would they change their arm slot, Something I'm not thinking of. It feels like the discussion around the third time through the order effect has been that it's immutable and therefore we must just avoid it altogether. But is that really the case? I don't know, Ben. Yeah, that's a tough one. I think that what we would probably see is a combination of some adjustment on who is put into that role.

I think we already have on the player development side sort of an early move to prospects who don't have an effective third pitch getting relegated to relief. We'd probably see that early tracking sort of heightened, although I think that there would probably be a greater emphasis on helping guys to try to develop something resembling an effective third pitch so that they could be more versatile. Because I think that organizations, you know, and it definitely depends on both the player

and the organization, but I think that there is sort of a tendency on the part of player dev staffs to say, say well this guy would be really effective in relief and we're not limited in any kind of meaningful way so let's just develop him well do i believe that i think it's true that there's uh there's like an easier off-ramp now yeah if that's a better way of phrasing it. Two pitches or something. It's just like, well, let's not worry about trying to give him a starter's repertoire because we only need so many starters and we need a lot of relievers. So there's a place for him, even if this is all he throws. there would be more of an effort for guys who show some kind of capacity for starting to develop a third pitch so that they could stay in that role. I think that you would also see teams kind of just learning to live with less effective third times through. Yeah. Trips through. I mean, I think we just have to learn to live with that. I think you might also see while you would have roster spots limited, presumably in this reality, to a certain number of pitchers, you might see the long reliever get a bit more shine, right? Because if you can only carry so many, having a guy who can effectively eat innings on the back end might have greater value, you know? Yeah, that makes sense to me.

I think there is research that shows that the more pitches you have, the smaller your third times through the order effect is on the whole. And so there would be more incentive to develop more pitches, which is easier said than done. And there's always been an advantage to that. But maybe you would see a priority placed on that. And maybe you could sort a priority placed on that. And maybe you could sort of optimize your pitch mix. Like I think that starters already do that to some extent, like maybe they'll use their fastball a lot the first time through the order, and then they'll

start mixing it up as they go deep into their games. But are they doing that in the most effective way possible? Are they calibrating their pitch mixes for each time through the order the way that they should be? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe there are gains to be made there with pitch selection. So that's possible. And as for like changing your arm slot or something, we talked about that not long ago. We had an email about whether that's a viable thing.

an email about whether that's a viable thing. And we came down on the side of, I think it's useful if you can do it, but it's pretty tough to do and would probably be difficult to instruct pitchers to do on a vast scale. But it is something I've been thinking about and planning to maybe look into because I don't know exactly how immutable this effect has been over the course of baseball history. I know that it has been pretty strong and consistent for the past 20 years or so that I've looked, but I don't know if it was quite as large or if it was always the same in earlier eras of baseball history, even though you had like Ted Williams saying that, you know, the more pitches he saw the first time he faced a pitcher, the better equipped he felt like he would be the next time he saw him which is borne out by the studies but i don't know whether when pitchers were conditioned

to go a little deeper into games they had more strategies of you know finding ways to navigate those lineups multiple times but i assume this has been present to some extent throughout history and and it's probably just not defeatable totally. Like if you're facing the same guy in the same game three or four times, it's going to take its toll. You're just going to see those extra looks, and it's going to teach you something no matter what you do. But I think probably there are little things you could do on the margins to make it more palatable. And as you said, like everyone would just have to live with it a little bit because every team would be laboring under that same restriction. So you would

just accept it to some extent. I tend to be in favor rather than having a limit on the roster in terms of its particular composition. Like I wonder if we wouldn't just be best served to transition to something resembling the NFL's model, which I know sounds a wild thing to say, but to have like an active game day roster that you cycle guys through and you could have limits on the active game day roster of what the breakdown of position player versus pitcher is, but working in the background have sort of a healthy stable of guys who you're rotating through. Right. Just because it seems like if you have, I don't know if this incentivizes like any weird injured-less shenanigans again,

I guess the changes to the duration of the IL are supposed to combat that. But I think an active game day roster is probably a good balance between those things because it helps to curtail some of the crazy pitching change games but also i think is perhaps more realistic about what is fixable or alterable in a in a pitcher versus not and might be a better middle point there i don't know yeah i think npb has had something along those lines, right? Where you have a larger roster and then designate some players as active for each game. So, yeah, something like that could work. All right, so we will take a quick break and then I will be back with Clay Bellinger.

But when I pass through the pearly gate, will my gown be gold instead? All right, I am joined now by former major leaguer and signer of my first ever autographed ball, Clay Bellinger. Hello, Clay. How are you? Doing well. 20-something years ago or so later. Thanks for the autograph. I appreciate it. You're welcome. So I've always been kind of curious about your career, just because you played for such great teams and you took an unlikely path to the majors. So I guess that's where I'd want to start, how you ended up with the Yankees, because you're drafted by the Gi. So I guess that's where I'd want to start, how you ended up with

the Yankees, because you're drafted by the Giants. I know you were in the Orioles system for a year. Then you come over to the Yankees system at a time when they're just really starting this incredible run that they had. So how did you end up there? And did that seem like a likely place for you to be able to break through, given the talent of the teams at that time? Yeah, exactly like you said, I was drafted by the Giants. I spent six years as a minor leaguer there. So I became a minor league free agent and went from Giants to Baltimore in 96. And then I became another, you know, you don't get any time in the big leagues to become a free agent after every year.

So I became a free agent after 96 and signed with the Yankees for 97. So I spent 97 there, 98 there, kind of tore my labrum. I think it was after 97. Gosh, I don't remember. I had surgery. So there wasn't a whole lot of action out there, you know, as far as me signing with somebody else. So I basically re-signed

with the yankees in the uh off season 98 went to spring training in 99 and had a pretty good spring training i actually you know i didn't get as many at bats in 98 but i i think i had maybe a little bit of a better spring training and you know i actually thought there might have been a chance in 98 of making it but it didn didn't work out. And so, like I said, spring training in 99, there was a couple of things that, you know, things that people were traded and all that kind of stuff. So I kind of thought maybe, maybe if I have another good spring. And so, yeah, I mean, that's basically what it was. I signed as a, you know, a minor league free agent, spent two more years in the minors with them.

And then finally in the spring training of of 99 is when i got the uh you know the the news from you know zim and cash that i was going to make the team out of spring training so we were over on the west coast doing a couple exhibition games and he was actually in dodger stadium right before an exhibition game that uh they told me i made the team so wow as you can say dodger State has been a pretty special place. the fifth place club or something. This is like the best team in baseball. And you look at that roster and you see the names and the accomplishments there. So it sounds like you were still able to retain some optimism and hope that there would be a place for you there. But it must have been tough to keep that mentality after that time and in that particular place. Yeah. I mean, anytime you spend that much time, time you know doing something where you don't

actually get to your ultimate dream and then obviously this case was you know getting to the big leagues and you know i you know everybody always says as long as you've got a shirt on your back you know uniform a number on your back and there's always a chance and it seems like every year and i you know i still watch baseball obviously and you know i still it still seems like every year you know you hear about somebody who's been in the minors for, you know, five or seven or ten years, and they finally get their shot. And, you know, I just – I'm so happy for those, you know, those – I wouldn't say kids, but those guys who, you know, finally get a chance after just absolutely grinding for that long

because that's all the minor league is, is a grind, as you ask anybody. But, yeah, you know, I just – you know, like I said, there wasn't a whole lot of interest going, you know, any other team. So I signed back with them. And, you know, I figured if I could have another good spring like I did in 98. You know, like I said, I think there was a couple of things, a couple of moves that were made. And, you know, you kind of see the light, you know, that possibly there might be a chance.

And it just all worked out. So, yeah, it was a good spring training. And obviously to hear the words that you know you you made it and it just put all the 10 years all the grind just you know it obviously made it worth it and i hadn't even you know stepped out in the field as a big leader yet so just hearing you know just knowing you were going to be on the roster with 10 years were you know they were in the past and walking onto that team with all of these legendary players who'd won a couple World Series by that point, did they embrace you? I mean, did you learn a lot from those guys?

Did you find them to be pretty open to this 30-year-old rookie who's up for the first time? Yeah, because I had known him basically from spring training the year before. I'm a fairly easy guy to get along with and you know i don't have you know obviously back then it's you know you're i wouldn't say the young guy but obviously the you know the guy with no experience so you just you know keep your mouth shut and you go out and you're you perform and you hopefully somebody likes you and so yeah i mean the guys are awesome when i knew when i when they had heard that i made it there's a lot of guys that were you know super happy and high fives andives and hugs and all that kind of stuff.

It was very easy for me to step into there and be a part of that team. Seale gets into one to left field, sending Bellinger back at the wall to make the catch. One out. Seale, who came so close to a home run in last night's game, again, inches away, as Bellinger was reaching at the top of the wall for the first out of the night. What are your fondest memories, I guess,

either from one of those teams in the regular season, or I guess everyone remembers the catch on the Todd Seale ball? I mean, going from you know being in AAA for years and bouncing around to suddenly you're playing in the World Series you're you know in the parades you're getting the rings what was that like and what stands out to you from that time? I mean basically I mean everything you just mentioned you know the first time the first time walking out of clubhouse we were actually you, we opened up 99 in a row. So we spent the first couple games there.

And so coming home for opening day at Yankee Stadium, they actually put the uniform on and actually walk out on the field. The Yankee Stadium was a big league. It was obviously very special. And I got to that bat that day. I think we were beating up on Eagles Detroit that day. And so it was cold and rainy. And so I pitched here for Tino.

And I just remember, you know, my first at-bat, I'm striking out. But, you know, just remembering that moment. And then, you know, getting first start, you know, it was on, I think it was like ESPN Sunday night game or Wednesday night game, whatever it was, getting your first knock. You know, I remember that. And, you know, your first home run, you got sent down. I got called back up in September. And so I remember my first home run and just everything.

You know, obviously, you know, getting to the World Series and the playoffs and, you know, winning that and the parade was just unbelievable. And, you know, to see that many people and actually get to witness and participate, you know, that many times, you know, in a row after, you know, being in the minor leagues, next thing you know, in the World Series for the next three years. Yeah, I just, I remember, you know, all that kind of stuff.

It's just, I wouldn't say, I don't know if I really have one. I mean, you brought up the catch off Todd Zeal, but I mean, I was just as proud as, you know, the Sunday night game we had in Boston where Messina and Mike had a perfect game going. And, you know, it was a nice inning. We were up by one run. And, you know, usually when that happens, you know, Tino got on

and I usually, you know, pinch run for Tino because it's a close game and I go out and play defense. But, you know, so I was ready to go and I was looking down and I saw Joe and Zim and they were like, you know, I think they were hesitant just because of the fact that it's a perfect game. They want, you know, Tino out for defense, even though we're still up by a run. But we got to – he got to third base, and I went out and pitch ran, and, you know, we ended up scoring.

He would have scored anyway because somebody had a double down the line, so it didn't even need me to pitch run. But, yeah, I just remember standing out, you know, first base, bottom ninth inning, and we seen he's got a perfect game going, and I was just like, you know, first base, bottom ninth inning, and we seen it's got a perfect game going. And I was just like, you know, hit me a ball. And sure enough, somebody smoked the ball to my right, and I dove for it and, you know, made a really nice play and flipped the mic and just thinking, holy cow, I just made a great play in, you know, what might be a perfect game.

And then, you know, I got a base hit. I think I ever got a base hit to left the next step back. So we won the game, and it felt like we lost. Yeah. Yeah, you know, just plays like that. Do you see any similarities between those Yankees teams and Cody's Dodgers teams of the past few years, or differences, I guess, too?

But, you know, they've had similar levels of success, certainly in the regular season, and now the Dodgers have broken through in the World Series, too. Yeah, I mean, obviously, finally, for the Dodgers to win is pretty amazing and spectacular. Yeah, I mean, just the talent on the team, 1 through 24, obviously you have to have, especially in the National League, you can't just rely on your nine guys that you throw out there every day. So, I mean, that's always been a Dodger thing, you know,

at least since, you know, Cody's been there, just their depth and quality of depth, you know, is the big thing. You know, the guy sitting on the bench could easily be starting for, you know, somebody else. And their farm system, you know, I don't remember, I don't know if the Yankee farm system was half as good as what the Dodger farm system is, you know, these days. You know, usually back then, you know, if they needed some help, they'd go out, you know, trade for somebody or they, you know, sign somebody. And the Dodgers, you know, as much grief as they get for having a huge payroll, they really don't go out, you know, obviously with Mookie, but they traded for him.

You know, and it's not like they're going out spending you know hundreds of million dollars on free agents they just don't do that because their you know their minor league system is phenomenal I mean every kid that comes up and plays for the Dodgers you know the Edwin Rios is the the Matt Beatty's you know everybody they call up just contributes right away and it's just a you know I think that's a huge difference but i think the dodgers you know obviously today's game is a little different but they have you know they hit more home runs than you know the yankees did back then but yeah just the quality of depth the pitching staffs you know back then and the yankees were unbelievable and probably the similarities right there but yeah overall the depth and just the you know like i said i talked

to cody and he loves his teammates. Back then, everybody played to win. There wasn't really a whole lot of individualism out there, and I don't think there's a whole lot of individualism on the Dodgers roster. Everybody obviously wants to go out and put up numbers because that's how you make your money and your living and stuff. But yeah, I think they just really, really enjoy being teammates and hanging out together. Yeah, and so the first couple of years of Cody's career, he makes the World Series. Now he's back there again, the third time in four years.

And you played for four teams in the majors. They all went to the World Series, including a couple of games you played for the 2002 Angels, who ended up winning. So as a family, you guys basically win the pennant pretty much every year so you you know how to pick your teams I guess yeah they blew it last year I was kind of upset he ruined our streak of uh six in a row but right I guess seven out of seven out of eight not bad yeah well your your ratio ratio of years in the majors and playing time to World Series rings is pretty good. It's pretty high up there. What do you do with them? Do you just hide them away somewhere? I don't know. I live out here in Arizona, so not too many people know who I am or associate me with the Yankees, except for friends and family, stuff like that.

But if I were to go out with a dinner or something and wear a ring, I don't think, you know what I mean? There might be one or two people, but it's no big deal. You know what I'm saying? So it's just, I think, doing security, safety box in the bank. But no, I don't really wear them. If I go back to New York for signing or something like that, I might pull one of them out, yeah. Well, congrats on adding the fourth ring to the family.

What was the last couple weeks like? Did you go out to Texas, and what was the environment like there? Yeah, I mean, my wife and I flew out there. We were out there basically since day one. We went out for the Padres series, and we didn't quarantine. We weren't in a bubble. So they put us up in a hotel that was literally 100 yards from the stadium right there in the Texas live area.

So it was a perfect location. It was just really weird. Basically, the whole hotel was rented out by MLB, so it was just for family and media. And the first series, like I said, there was maybe – it seemed like there was 20 people in this hotel, maybe 30. And it was just – I felt sorry for the staff members because there wasn't anybody to wait on it, really.

You know, they did a fantastic job. They gave us food and basically paid for everything everything which was fantastic and so yeah we just walked to the games and literally the first game against the the Padres it was just so it was so different you know we were literally sitting in the stands with nobody except for the families of the Padres and and us that were in the non-bubble people the bubble families were down that round section on both sides and but I think there was eight of us there was eight parents at this first three games or however many games it was and it was just so quiet and even the piped in you know crowd noise was just not the same so i could honestly say and i've said this before that you know i can understand how

some big leaguers struggle this year you know it's it was just such a different game at that you know it's what was supposed to be at that level it was just totally different and then finally the it was the best news in the world where they said they were gonna put 11,000 people or 12,000 people in the stands for the CS and even that many people the atmosphere was just totally different you know I think that obviously the players loved it. But, yeah, just sitting out there, like I said, for MLB, they did a fantastic job. The hotel was amazing. The staff was incredible. And, you know, besides, you know, not being able to see, you know,

you couldn't see Cody and obviously everybody else couldn't see their kids. And so that was a struggle, especially when we heard that, you know, whoever was going to win, you couldn't get out in the field and celebrate with them. So that was kind of crappy. But, you know, I guess you understand what's going on. But yeah, so overall, you know, the three weeks we were out there for, I don't know, two and a half, three weeks and finally got to watch some live baseball and obviously, you know, for the Dodgers to win it, you know, made the whole experience worth it. Yeah. And Cody had some big moments and of course he made the catch at the wall 20 years after your catch at the wall.

How does the experience of seeing your son win a World Series compare to winning a World Series yourself? I mean, like I said, all the negativity around the Dodgers, you know, not being able to do it, you know, whether it was 2017 and all the circumstances that, you know, went behind that in 2018 and, you know and not making it last year. And so just to know that all that crap that all these announcers and media, I was happy for the Dodger organization to finally have that off their back and can't talk about that anymore. But, yeah, just watching him go out there and play and just have fun and be able to contribute and yeah knowing that you know like i said all those guys you know guys have been a curse and those guys for for a long long time and not finally you know people

play this game and they're hall of famers they don't ever win one so he finally got one they finally got one so couldn't be more happy for him. Yeah. And coaching Cody as he was coming up. I know you coached him in club ball in high school. And at what point do you realize like, you know, this kid is not just good. He's not just a prospect. You know, maybe he can make it, but but he can be the kind of player he's become. I mean, is there a moment where you realize that or is that just something that gradually dawns on you as you see him grow and progress yeah I think it gradually I mean you know as a young kid you know even literally you tell you it's gonna be good you know it's like yeah literally it's all he did you know since he was you know three four and five he was just throwing hit throwing hit throwing hit and and as it looks a little eager you know and you've

heard the story a million times you know he, he was always the smallest kid, but he was always really good. And so he wasn't he wasn't as good because the other kids are bigger, stronger, faster. But, you know, he was really good at his age and size, you know, so he didn't he didn't play varsity baseball till his junior year. And so he had a really good junior year and obviously senior year. And so he had a really good junior year and obviously senior year. And then you just kind of, you know, baseball is the thing where you kind of project, you know, you project the body type and the physical ability and the athleticism. And, you know, what if, you know, you put 20 pounds on or you grow a couple more inches and get stronger. And so, yeah, I mean, you always envision, you know, him making the big leagues. him making the big leagues,

but he envisioned and he always dreamed and hoped for the accolades and how good he has been his first four years. But is that ever a reality? Very, very rarely do people get to have the first four years of a major

league career as he's had. Yeah, it's been a little bit of grad. From the beginning, I mean, it's been, you know, a little bit of grass. I mean, from the beginning, I knew he was good. But, you know, you kind of see, you know, minor leagues when all of a sudden, boom, he starts hitting 30 home runs and changes his swing and all that kind of stuff. Right. And the changes that he made when he was with the Dodgers, I mean, he was a prospect, obviously

coming out of high school, but a fourth rounder, you know, not a definite future rookie of the year and MVP. And the Dodgers have done such a great job of developing hitters and the changes that they've made with many of their guys, I guess, are things that, you know, when you were in the minors, you know, 20 something years ago, people didn't have that information. You know, people weren't thinking the same way about swing paths and hitting home runs and all of that. Do you see an enormous difference in how young players are taught coming up through the minors compared to when you were coming up through the minors and obviously the information available? I mean, do you wish that you had had some of that when you were at that stage?

I think everybody does a little bit. You know, I mean, you know, everybody says they're old school and stuff. But yeah, when you get some of this data that's available to these players, it can't do anything but help you. You know, I mean, it's just there's crazy, crazy stats and crazy numbers out there. Do I think it helps? Yeah, absolutely, yes.

You know, but, I mean, you have to, you know, the game is totally different, you know, than it was, you know, 10 years ago. And until they change the rules and stuff like this, you're going to, you know, everybody's all, you know, mad about the all mad about the strikeouts and this and that, but when you're a left-handed hitter in the big leagues these days, you've got seven guys on the right side of the infield, so you're not going to hit a ground ball through anywhere, so you're going to try to hit the ball in the air,

and that's just the way it is. I don't know what the ground ball rate of a lefty getting a hit. I think earlier this season it was like 170 or something like that. It might not even have been that high. So, I mean, why in the world would you hit a ground ball if it's going to be an out? So, figure out that whole shift thing. Like I said, I'm a little biased because, you know, my son's a lefty,

but I watch every game. And, you know, it's just – I wouldn't say it makes me mad, but when a lefty smokes a ball, you you know five feet by the first baseman the guy dies and all of a sudden there's a you know third baseman 40 feet out on the grass and he just picks it up throws him out whereas the righty you know hits the ball by the third baseman it's a base hit you know just just stuff like that so yeah kids are taught different whether you're lefty or righty and you know that's just the way it is until something changes and if it doesn't ever change then you know plus the pitching is so much better these days you know overall it's crazy crazy crazy how good it is so i mean hell i couldn't i couldn't even imagine trying to hit every day yeah in a big league oh boy right and

it's always something that fascinates me when you know a kid whose dad was a big leaguer goes on to follow in the footsteps and maybe become an even better player in some cases. And I always wonder how much of that is... Wait, are you saying Cody's a better player than me? He trails you by a couple World Series rings still, so you got that on him. But I always wonder how much of it is, you know, nature and how much of it is nurture. Like, obviously, he has a lot of just natural talent. But if you don't grow up with a dad who knows how to coach you and was a big leaguer himself, you know, then does the kid end up gravitating toward that? And, you know, how much do those early lessons help?

Like, clearly, it's an advantage, I think, if you just look at the rate of sons of big leaguers who end up being big leaguers, but it doesn't get you all the way there. It's just, it's probably pretty important in those early years, I would think. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's like I said, any time, you know, whatever a dad or mom does, and the kids are always around it, basically, you know, you know, nine months out of the year. And, you know, I wouldn't say it's not hard, but, yeah, it's something, you know, like I said, he was around it all the time. He loved doing it.

You know, we didn't press any of our kids to do what they're doing now. So it's just something he enjoys, something our youngest son, Cole, you know, enjoyed because he got to witness it too, you know, and him being a potter organization trying to, you know, I think he's pretty much healthy now from his surgery. So, yeah, I think anytime you follow your parents, you know, they got to, you know, they traveled to where I was playing, you know, it wasn't just me leaving. So, you know,

they were around all the minor leagues and at the field every day, whenever they could. And so, yeah, that kind of took off. But yeah, as a dad, you kind of, you know, you have your teaching moments and, you know, stuff you see on the field and, you know, stuff you see on the field and, you know, some things that you don't like, you know, you kind of talk to them about. And, you know, you just hope they follow in your footsteps

as long as it's in a good way. Yeah, I mean, like I said, he had a whole lot of athleticism. But I think, you know, one of the things, obviously, his accomplishments on the field, but, you know, Jen and I are just as proud as, you know, how all the compliments we get, you know, for him being off the field and the people he meets and the media he talks to and, you know, all that kind of stuff. He's just as good off the field as he is, you know, on the field. Yeah. And you played every position except pitcher and catcher in the big leagues and you did play pitcher and catcher in the minor leagues. So you did it all. Is that something that you were able to help him with or sort of instruct him in early?

Because, you know, obviously he's had a lot of versatility when it comes to playing different positions, too. Yeah, I mean, you know, as a young coach, you know, I mean, as a coach of a young kid, you know, you always kind of tell kids to, you know, hey, just start learning some positions and play different positions. And, you know, obviously him being a lefty, it's kind of limited out there in the field. You're either playing first or the outfield, you know, hey, just, you know, start learning some positions and play different positions. And, you know, obviously him being a lefty, it's kind of limited out there in the field, either playing first or the outfield, you know, obviously, or pitch. So, yeah, you know, he played first and he played outfield. And as a young kid, I mean, he kind of, when he got to high school,

he was primarily a first baseman. And he'll play a little bit outfield, but in the minor leagues, he was primarily a first baseman until, you know, you kind of go around and you're like, okay, who's ahead of me? You know, I've got, you know, Adrian Gonzalez in front of me. So, you know, hey, let's maybe start taking some fly balls in the outfield because, you know, you're starting to do some things. And, you know, what's going to get you, obviously, the quickest

and fastest way to the big leagues. And so he started playing some outfield. And the next thing you know is, you know, his opening day was not as a first baseman, it was as a left fielder. You know, if he doesn't do that, if he's was not as a first baseman, it was as a left fielder. If he doesn't do that, if he's just stuck as a first baseman, then it might have taken a little bit longer, and who knows. I always tell all the kids that we teach and coach, and learn as much as you can, and learn different positions,

because it's never going to hurt you knowing to play more positions. Last question, having a couple kids in the game and having been in the game for so long yourself and doing some coaching when they were growing up, it would have been very easy for you probably to remain in organized baseball and do some coaching, and instead you have transitioned to a completely different second career. You've become a firefighter. So

how and why did you decide to do that? And what role does that play in your life now? What's your schedule? Basically, I mean, like I said, I just, you know, I was in it for a long time. I was towards the end, you know, Jen was kind of keeping the kids here just because, you know, the school and the athletics and all that kind of stuff. so i wasn't really seeing them all that much during the season but yeah you know it's just i just didn't feel like starting out and getting back on buses you know for 12 or 14 hour bus rides and you know like it is in the minor leagues you know once you get to like low a ball and a ball and stuff like that and just wanted to be around the kids and you know be able to help coach and and do some things and so that's kind of why i didn't

get into it right away and yeah you know i had buddies a couple days i used to play with and they became firemen and like you know it's just a it's incredible gig you know you get to go out and help people and save lives and you know it's a small clubhouse you know guys you're around you get to mess around do whatever you know i mean you get to just have a good time and all of a sudden you know once your tones go off and you know you become serious it's kind of like you know you know bp you're messing you know you just have fun all of a sudden you get out between the white lines and boom it's game time it's kind of like firefighting you know you're hanging on station and and you're doing whatever you want all of a sudden the tones go off you jump in a truck and you know it's game

time and so it's kind of a you know kind of i wouldn't say an easy you know it's not easy to get into you know being a fireman but as far as you know my lifestyle you know back then you know being around a bunch of you know a bunch of guys and being away from you know the family for 24 hours which is what we do here you know obviously not a big deal when you're you know when you're on the road for you know 10 or 12 days or 14 days in a minor league. So being away for 24 hours was pretty, you know, an easy transition for me. So, yeah, that's just kind of how that came. You know, I did a couple ride-alongs. I really enjoyed it.

I met some really good dudes. And I started testing. A couple years later, I was hired and been doing it ever since. You know, that and real estate and helping out, you know, the high school. I still help out with Hamilton where the boys went and, you know, my daughter went. And it's a really, really national power over there. So I love doing it. And a good bunch of guys to coach with and a good bunch of kids.

And so, yeah, that's kind of how my days are right now. I've talked to, you know, Jen about maybe possibly getting back into coaching. But, you know, we'll see. All right. Well, I have fond memories of watching you when I was growing up. I'm sure Cody's making many great memories for kids who are grown up now. So we'll see how many rings the Bellingers can collect. So thanks for...

I'd like to add a couple more. It'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Well, it's great talking to you, Clay. Thank you very much. All right. Thanks, man. All right.

That will do it for today. Thanks, as always, for listening. By the way, Bellinger came up on an earlier episode at some point in 2019, and a listener named Christian Robinson tweeted at me to say regarding Ben's comment of Clay Bellinger and his World Series rings to games played ratio, I found he is actually 10th among hitters with at least 100 games played. Charlie Silvera has the highest ratio with six World Series and 227 games played. Of course, Silvera played for 10 years as a backup catcher for the Yankees. So I said, what about rings to seasons played, minimum three rings? And Christian said, Jay Tesmer, Kid Durbin, Ralph Houck, Mike Gazella,

and Clay Bellinger each have three rings with four seasons played. Although Bellinger is the only one to appear in more than two playoff games in his career. Tesmer and Durbin didn't at all. I believe Kid Durbin actually only played three years, but he played for four teams, three of which won the World Series. And Ralph Houck played for eight seasons and had six rings, so his ratio was the same as the others. Jay Tesmer, of course, was a Clay Bellinger teammate. That was a good time to win a bunch of World Series as a role player.

So thanks to Christian all these many months later for that research. And thanks again to Clay Bellinger for coming on. And thanks to you if you have supported the podcast on Patreon, which you can do by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. The following five listeners have already signed up to pledge some small monthly amount and help keep the podcast going while getting themselves access to some perks. Alex Putterman, Roger Kryan, Alex

Levy, Jason George, and Steven Dennison, thanks to all of you. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. Keep your questions and comments for me and Meg and Sam coming via email at podcast2fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. And we will be back with another episode a little later this week. Talk to you then. Here again, President Gas is up for president. Line up, put your kisses down. Say yeah, say yes again.

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