Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1621: Japan’s Field of Dreams (and Nightmares)

Episode Date: November 25, 2020

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the latest head-scratching Scott Boras quote, a disheartening Shohei Ohtani interview and Ohtani’s two-way future, Charlie Morton leaving the Rays to sign with the Braves, and the items from the 2020 season preserved by the Hall of Fame, then (28:06) talk to Ema Ryan Yamazaki, director of the […]

And I could never take good care of you Because we had so much to lose But we should never say that we drifted far Yeah, we should take a trip to the reservoir Yeah, we should take a trip to the reservoir Hello and welcome to episode 1621 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangraphs, and I am joined as always by Ben Limburger, the ringer. Ben, how are you? Doing okay. And you're joined as often by the landscapers outside your home. Yeah. Can't escape noise out in the world, it turns out. So apologies if at any point there is loud blowing sounds and or lawn being cut. I appreciate everyone's patience. Yes. So another day, another Scott Boris quote. People just tip us off to them now. I don't just happen

to come across all of these Boris quotes, but people know that we're looking for them, I guess, or I don't know if we are looking for them, but they come to us. We can't avoid them now. They're like landscapers. This one is a doozy. I guess this is the time when Boris is at his most talkative because no winter meetings this year, so he can't hold court and deliver all of his strange analogies in one time and one place. he's got to spread them out. So Jesse Rogers of ESPN wrote an article about Jed Hoyer, whom the Cubs just extended and promoted. And there's only one tiny little bit about Boris in here. He parachutes into this article to say something very strange, and then he is not heard from again.

So there's no larger purpose for Scott Boris to be in this article. He's not talking about his clients or anything. It's just clearly like, well, you get this line from Scott Boris. I guess you got to use it somewhere. So it's just sort of dropped in the middle of this article. So here's, I guess, the preceding paragraph that leads into the Boris quote, or I don't know if it even does lead into it. It just precedes it. It reads, Eventually, Hoyer landed his own gig in San Diego, but after two years, he joined Epstein in Chicago to help break a second, quote unquote, curse. After winning two titles with the Red Sox,

the duo broke a 108-year-old title drought with the Cubs. Epstein's legacy was made. Hoyer isn't far behind him. New paragraph. Quote, the championship reservoir is about the water, agent Scott Boris observed. If ownership gives a damn, Jed has the wrench to control the valves. And I should make clear here that damn in gives a damn is D-A-M, should make clear here that dam in gives a dam is d-a-m which i wonder whether jesse rogers had to clarify with scott scott is that was that word play are you yeah he's saying dam as in the thing

that holds back water anyway that was uh conveyed i guess unless jesse just assumed he was doing that and then that's it and then it just moves right along to an A.J. Preller quote that is sort of unrelated. Okay, give me the back half of it after the... Yeah, I'll give you the whole thing. The championship reservoir is about the water. If ownership gives a damn, Jed has the wrench to control the valves. But, okay, so, wait a minute. I don't understand.

I don't follow this one at all. Ben, I don't understand. Because, I mean, it would be one thing if the water in the reservoir was like, like you want to open the floodgates of spending. Right. Right? Like that seems like it would be a thing that would be tied to ownership.

But otherwise, if the championship reservoir is a reservoir of literal championships, then don't you want to collect them and not let them go at all? I don't know what it's a reservoir of. Is it a reservoir of championships? Or is the water the money that you spend to get championships?

I really don't know. I don't know about this one, Ben. If ownership gives a dam, Jed has the wrench to control the valves. Do you think there's... Is that how dams work? Do you just... Someone with a wrench just goes and uses some valves? I am sure that that is not how they work.

I don't think that's how they work. I don't know much about dams or reservoirs for that matter i think that it is to everyone's benefit that aquatic engineering is someone else's game but i'm pretty sure that we're not just like sending a guy up there with a wrench to be like better let loose the water no i don't think so especially not with that accent i mean among other things do you think that beat writers ask scott boris questions hoping he will give some sort of crazy analogy so that we have something to talk about in the off season because i know he volunteers them quite quite often but i like to think our beat writer pals are like let's help out those lovely folks over at effectively wild yes i Yes, I think they do.

I think they go out of their way to call up Scott Boris in hopes that he will say something like this. And he always does. He's reliable in that respect, if nothing else. He is. It's just endlessly fascinating to me. Because what's mind-boggling about Boris is that he's so good at his job and he still says these things. Anyone could say some hot nonsense and we wouldn't talk about it on the podcast, but this is Scott Boris, titan of the industry,

one of the most influential figures in baseball. And this is how he speaks, on purpose. And I don't know whether he succeeds in spite of this wordplay or whether this is one of the weirder manifestations of the showmanship that has helped him succeed, but this is the man who talks owners into spending hundreds of millions of dollars on players. Somehow his words are the wrench that control the valves that drain the water in the championship

reservoir. So most of this episode is going to be devoted to an interview with Emma Ryan Yamazaki, who is the director of a documentary called Koshien, Japan's Field of Dreams, which aired earlier this year on ESPN. And we were going to talk to her at that time. We didn't get to. But now we have an opportunity to again, because the movie is now more widely available in the US in virtual cinema screenings, which is a thing.

So it opened in virtual theaters last week, and I will link to the information for where you can find those screenings and where you can find one near you. I'm not entirely clear on how virtual cinema screenings work. This is a new world that we're all trying to get used to. But this documentary is now more widely available, and that's a good thing because we liked it and we learned from it. And it is about Japan's high school baseball culture and the Koshin tournament that has happened every year, just about every year for more than a century now, and isikuchi played in it, and Ichiro played in it, and there are lots of legendary moments there, but also some controversy about how high school baseball is coached and managed. So we will get into all of that, and we will talk a published within the last week in Kyoto News. And it's sort of sad because he is reflecting on his 2020 season, which was not great. And in fact, he

characterizes it as pathetic. And he says, until 2019, I could more or less do the things I wanted to do. I pretty much never experienced the feeling of wanting to do something but being completely unable to do it. Many of us have experienced that feeling and often routinely, but it's pretty new for Otani who can kind of do everything on a baseball field. And so this year was pretty frustrating for him and for fans of him. And the interviewer asks him about when he went hitless in 21 straight plate appearances in August. And he says, my mechanics were off. It felt like the best I could do was simply get a hit.

I was happy to get one. But even when I did, there were a few times when everything clicked. Home runs rarely feel like flukes, but that's how they felt. Something felt wrong. And then the interviewer says says were there any plate appearances where you felt satisfied and he says not many there was one home run on september 23rd that was about it it felt like i produced a good swing for the first time in some hundred plate appearances so god yeah pretty bleak i don't know whether that is because of the injury that was preventing him

from pitching and maybe it also affected his hitting or whether he was out of whack for other reasons or both but it was just sort of a lost season for him and it was sad because uh seeing him be a two-way player again was the number one thing i was looking forward to yeah and it happened for i guess two games and those games went very poorly and then that was it for pitching. So one of the many things that went awry in 2020. And I hope we'll be back on track next year, but we shall see. about human psychology that is different person to person so i would never claim that there is a single optimal level of self-awareness for athletes i think you need some to be able to have the humility to change and make adjustments and you know take advice and coaching when it's gonna help to improve your game but i've been working on a theory ben that there's a bit of a disconnect between the optimal level of self-awareness to be a human being and the optimal

level of self-awareness to be an athlete, especially in a sport like baseball, where there's just so much repetition of the same action and it's every day and you just have to go out there and try again, even when things aren't going well. And, you know, I think that Otani was injured. There's a thing that we can point to that is clear and obvious. And I think we all hope that he will be healthy next year. And whether it point where it stops being useful and starts being detrimental and that that might be wildly out of sync with what it takes for you to be a good son or partner or friend. And we ask them to do it every day. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I hope he gets one more crack at least at the two-way thing. I understand the arguments against it, but I just think he has earned and one more real try at it in a healthy season.

And we'll see if he can stay healthy. I know there's some question about that. And maybe being a two-way player makes that less likely. But for me, at least the potential payoff is still there, certainly from a spectator perspective, but even from the Angels' perspective. So I hope we get to see that again. Yeah, I think that unless it's going to fundamentally and forever compromise him as a hitter and an outfielder, that what do they have to lose but for trying? Who else is in the Angels rotation next year? Yeah, that's the thing.

You only get so many goes with a prime Mike Trout. So I think that unless it's going to compromise his health in a significant way, that there's no harm in trying. And it seems like even despite his struggles that he is still interested in doing it. So let's give him a shot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we only get a player like him once a century or so.

So just sort of selfishly, I want to see that because watching him in 2018 was like my favorite thing as an adult baseball fan and person who follows the sport. So I want more of it. Ben! Oh, no. He does say in this interview, this is pretty relatable, the interviewer asks him what the impact of the pandemic was on his personal life, and he says, of course, there were times when I couldn't go out, but I'm not the person who goes out anyway, so that was no bother, really. Oh, no wonder he's become a favorite of Effectively

Wild. He just wants to hang out and think about baseball. I hope that we look back on 2020 and are just, you know, it's a tricky bit of business when you start ranking relative to each other, the degree and the ways in which this year was hard. So I don't mean to suggest that it's all been the same for everybody. Clearly, people have struggled and suffered loss that is different than, say, I have. I'll put it in relation to myself. But I hope that we all look back on this year and are just like, you made it. You got through. You did it. That's spectacular. I know that it doesn't feel that way. And it'll be hard for us to keep perspective and to remember, you know, our memories forget some of the rough edges of our lives in ways that I think is really helpful to us being able to live them. But you played a season of Major League Baseball.

You did it, pal. Like, you know, it's just like, what a year. Yeah. Did you want to say something about the signing of Charlie Morton by the Braves? Sure. So the Braves signed Charlie Morton, which is exciting for a number of reasons, not the least of which is it suggests that Charlie Morton wants to play baseball in 2021. And I'm very excited about that because I think as we discussed when talking about the

decline of his option, we weren't quite sure what role his potential interest in retiring might play in the Rays having made that decision. So now we can just go back to being like, Rays, spend a little bit of money, why don't you? Instead of worrying that he was done and it would have been a shame if he had gone out on the note that he did in the postseason because his last game wasn't his best effort. But also, the Braves needed pitching depth. the postseason because it wasn't you know his last game wasn't his best effort but also um you know

the the Braves needed pitching depth and so they were like we can get Charlie Morton who's a very good pitcher for 15 million dollars so let's go do that so this is exciting for two reasons the first of which being more Charlie Morton and the second of which being a baseball team saying uh we have an issue we should shore it up with money because we have a lot of that. So that's good. That's really all I have to say about Charlie Morton. Yeah. And Morton reportedly wanted to be close to home in Tampa.

And Atlanta is not too far away, just a short flight. And so his market was self-limited in that sense if he was restricting it to teams that played close to home. And there's no team closer to home than the Rays who could have had him for the same amount. They had the option for $15 million and they turned it down and they were clearly still interested in retaining his services. finalists for Morton. So whatever the Rays bid was not what the Braves gave him and what the Rays could have had him for without even having him hit the open market. So this is just another example of this is the way the Rays operate. And they decide that we're not going to spend very much on any particular player, even if it's someone who's as good as Morton. You know,

there were some warning signs and perhaps some signs of decline and obviously age, but Morton still predicts to be a quality pitcher and would have helped any team, including the Rays, despite their pitching depth. So yeah, I mean, you know, what could it have come down to? A couple million? I mean, if they were still in the running for him, you'd think they must have been offering something close to what he got, but just could not just give him what the option was and what other teams were willing to give him. Yeah, it doesn't reflect especially well on them, but yeah, what are you going to do? Raise. Them raise. Yep. And to be fair, the Rays did spend

$15 million on Charlie Morton in each of the past two seasons. They did sign him as a free agent, and they were rewarded with two playoff appearances and a pennant. So they were willing to splurge by their standards on Morton previously, just not going forward. And maybe that's because the pandemic has changed the economic calculus, or maybe it's because they're worried about Morton. And I'm not saying that the Rays will rue this day. Maybe they will, but maybe they'll just go get two relievers no one's ever heard of, and they'll throw 100 and they'll be great. The Rays have been pretty clever about finding pitching without paying much for it.

And maybe the Braves can be the beneficiaries because they've already signed Drew Smiley, and they should have Mike Soroka coming back. So suddenly you're looking at a rotation that has Soroka, Freed, and Anderson supplemented by Morton and Smiley. That is a solid rotation. That's a top 10 rotation, according to the FanGraph's depth charts right now.

And that's with none of those pitchers projected to pitch more than 180 innings. So the Braves bidding for another division title. They tend to act fast. They get the offseason started. All right. Can I read you this year's Hall of Fame items? They were announced, the items that were preserved this year in the Hall of Fame.

This has become kind of an effectively wild tradition. Please do. Started with Jeff a few years ago when he was appalled at some of the items that the Hall of Fame had designated worth keeping. Just glancing at this year's list, which I think is a little shorter, perhaps, which makes sense because the season was shorter. Some of these items seem to be fitting choices. But let's see.

Not all of the postseason items have been announced yet, but here's what they've announced so far. And we did an episode, right right Where we decided what we would save In our Hall of Fame exhibit So in 2020 Maybe we just don't have an exhibit Let's just forget That this whole thing happened

But that's not what Cooperstown is doing So here's what the Hall of Fame has chosen To keep A ball used in the July 18th Exhibition game between the Nationals And the Pirates the first game between two teams In the summer camp period Sure

The ball thrown by the Nationals' Max Scherzer For the first pitch of the 2020 season On July 23rd at Nationals Park Sure A bat used by the Giants' Hunter Pence on July 23rd When he became the first designated hitter To come to bat in an NL vs. NL game Yes, good Yeah, that's a good one

That's good A jersey worn during warm-ups by Alyssa Nacken on July 23rd When she became the first female coach in an MLB game Good Yes, no-brainer Alright Base, first pitch ball, and jersey worn by Rangers pitcher Lance Lynn during the first game at Globe Life Field on July 24th. Sure.

I feel like that could go in the Globe Life Field Hall of Fame. Yeah. I don't know. And to be clear, not all of these are out in the middle of the museum having pride of place. They keep a ton of items that are just in the bowels of the hall of fame you know there for posterity or researchers or whatever so most of their collection is not on display but you know i know some people who would uh like to have lancelin memorabilia i've co-hosted a podcast with one yeah all right second base from the july 24th game between the angels and

the athletics the first game where a runner was placed on second base in extra innings. Sure. Yeah, you got to keep that. And I guess second base is what you would want to keep from that. Did Notani, like, immediately get thrown out on the base pass in that moment? I think so. Yeah, I think that happened, right? Yeah.

Well, that's what we were just talking about. It was not the best year. All right. That's what we were just talking about It was not the best year A jersey worn by the Royals' Alex Gordon On July 31st featuring a patch Honoring former team owner And Hall of Fame board member

David Glass Oh boy Stretch I get why But also I don't care That's a Hall of Fame board member I guess is why that happened That's like a Royals Hall of Fame item For me That's a hall of fame board member i guess is why that happened and that's like a

royals hall of fame item for me that's a team hall of fame level item all right an unused baseball produced for minor league baseball's 2020 opening day oh my gosh wow that's just oh holy moses yeah i didn't read that one ahead of time that just that just hit me it just wow that is dark yeah geez okay i guess you have to acknowledge the whole spectrum of experience in this year right you don't want to you know your obligation as a museum is to to catalog and chronicle the the weird year that we had so you can't can't not include that but right yeah and what do you save from a game that didn't happen or i guess you have to save in a loose ball but yeah boy okay the spikes worn by the mets billy hamilton on august 5th when he stole the 300th base of his career i think that

that's good for two reasons the first of which is commemorating a player moment and the second is reminding me that billy played for the Mets. I too had forgotten that Billy Hamilton played for the Mets. I definitely did not remember that. I guess that's why we need the museum. But yeah, he played 17 games for the Mets. Okay. I guess that happened.

He batted 045. That sounds right. He stole three bases for them. Yeah. I don't know. Is that good is 300 Bases I mean in this era I guess That's good although it just

Kind of reminds me of Billy Hamilton's career being a bit more Disappointing than we all had hoped We hoped he might have more stolen bases than that But you know I guess it's a round number Yeah The cap worn by the Tigers Tyler Alexander on August 2nd Against the Reds when he set a new record for relievers and tied the overall American League record with nine straight strikeouts.

I remember we talked about that. Yeah. I think that that's cool. Yeah. That was fun. All right. The spikes worn by the Marlins' Eddie Alvarez on August 5th when he debuted in the big leagues to become the first Winter Olympics medalist to also play in an MLB game.

Yes. Yeah, that's good. The cap worn by Marlins manager Don Mattingly on August 6th when he set a new franchise record with his 282nd victory. Sure. That's a Marlins Hall of Fame item. Yeah, that doesn't need to go to Cooperstown.

Yeah, I don't think so. Franchise record for Marlins Hall of Fame item. Yeah, that doesn't need to go to Cooperstown. Yeah, I don't think so. Franchise record for Marlins managers. Not really a storied group. I think, yeah. Okay. The bat used by the White Sox's Eloy Jimenez when he homered against the Cardinals on August 16th, giving the White Sox a record tying four home runs in a row. Sure.

Yes. Yeah. All right. Fine. I think also because there should be a special little note that says it was really easy for us to get this ball because there was an l1 there yes exactly the helmet worn by the padres eric hosmer august 20th when his home run gave san diego a grand slam in a record four straight game yes yeah that's a good one although they should keep something from

tatis too just because that became such a big thing when he hit his grand slam. Yeah, no kidding. The cap worn by the White Sox's Lucas Giolito and a ball thrown by him during his August 25th no-hitter against the Pirates. Yeah, gotta keep something for the no-hitter, I suppose. A game-used cap, mask, chest protector, and shin guards from Joe West, who in 2020 became the first umpire to call games in six different decades. I was about to make a crack about Joe West and masks, but I'm not going to do that because it's rude and really, you know, played out at this point.

What an easy joke to make. Sure, sure. I guess. All right. The batting gloves worn by the Cardinals' Yadier Molina when he recorded his 2000th career hit on September 24th. Yeah, you got to keep that. Yeah.

The bat the Braves' Adam Duvall used in his three-homer games on September 2nd and September 9th. Sure. I will mostly remember that game for how devastated the Marlins looked because it wasn't one of those three homer games against the Marlins. I think so, yeah. They just looked like they'd had a bad day. But sure, sure. All right. A cap worn by Alec Mills and a game used ball from his no-hitter for the Cubs on September 13th. Yes.

Got to keep something from all the no-hitters. And that one was a very... That was a good one. That was a good one. That was a surprising no-hitter. We all felt happy for him. So yeah. Yeah. The cap worn by the twins Kenta Maeda on September 29th in the first game of the Best of Three

wildcard round. Sure. I guess we have to remember that. Yeah. That's in that category of things. Maybe we'd rather forget. I don't know. But it was part of the story of the season. A bat used by the Reds' Mike Moustakas during the postseason featuring the Heal and Unite logo. I believe that was Barry Larkin's initiative about raising awareness for racial injustice or some program along those lines.

So I want to be very careful with what I'm about to say. I think that there needs to be, I would be very interested in the hall hiring a good historian or curator. I'm betraying my ignorance of museums in a way that people I know who work for museums are going to get mad about. I think that it would be, the hall would be remiss to not grapple with

the way that trying to raise awareness for police brutality became a central theme in this year's season. But it seems like that needs to be part of a much bigger exhibit, which I don't know how they're placing this. Maybe you collect the artifacts and then you design an exhibit around it. But I think it's a really important thing for us to grapple with in both the ways it succeeded and failed. And that you probably want more than just. Yes. Let's hope there's more. And for Mike Moustakas.

Yeah, Mike Moustakas. That was the player they picked? Right. I don't know if that was necessarily the most appropriate choice, but okay. All right. And then the bat used by the Rays' Mike Brasso when he hit the go-ahead home run in the eighth inning of game five of the ALDS versus the Yankees. Yes. Yeah, that was a very memorable swing.

Yeah. And I think they also kept the first pitch of the World Series thrown by Clayton Kershaw, the first World Series to take place at a neutral site. That seems like one you've got to keep. And then there's also, this is the cap worn by Starling Marte in his final game of the 2020 regular season with a mid-season trade. Marte appeared in an MLB-leading 61 games during the abbreviated 60-game regular season.

Yes, I think you have to keep that. Okay. All right. Well, that's this year's haul pending some other postseason items that I think have yet to be announced. So not too many questionable choices there. I think that they should cut out the entire infield diamond and the part of the outfield where Chris Taylor erred in which game of the world series was that for that was game four in game

four because you you want to have like a life-size diagram of what happened yeah yeah that'd be cool if you could just like uh do the whole thing like an exhibit the whole field is there and you can just uh you can reenact the part of chris taylor flubbing that or any of the other many Dodgers who flubbed that play. You could run around the bases and score. That'd be fun. Yeah, for sure. All right, so let's take a quick break, and we'll be back with the director,

Emma Ryan Yamazaki, the director of Koshin, Japan's Field of Dreams. Hello, Emma. Hi. So in the film, Shohei Otani says that Koshin is like our World Series. And of course, Japan has its own World Series as well, which is actually going on right now, the Japan Series and the NPP. And for our listeners who are not that aware of Koshien, can you kind of compare it to either an event that they might know about?

I guess March Madness is an easy comparison, if not the World Series. And just sort of lay out the structure and the history a little bit and why it is such an enormous deal in Japan. Sure. Koshien is the name of a stadium where the annual high school baseball tournament is played every summer. And so around 4,000 schools play in like a knockout tournament to try to reach Koshien at the regional level before, you know, trying to get there. So only around 50 teams every year make it to Koshien. So that's the field of dreams. And yeah, really, I like to compare it to March Madness plus the Super Bowl in terms of the scale and the impact that that tournament has every year. There's not really a single tournament I can think of in the U.S. that's comparable

just because for a small country like Japan, it's just the single biggest sports tournament. And that includes all professional sports as well. So people every every game is on national TV from morning till night during those couple of weeks, and hundreds of millions of people basically watch it. So is it a bigger deal than the NPP? I mean, of course, it's concentrated in a shorter period. But would it be, I guess, a greater accomplishment? Would a player rather win Koshien or win the Japan series, the Nippon series? I mean, it's definitely bigger in terms of the impact it has every year. I mean, more people watch the Koshien tournament than the Japan series, I would say. I mean, I feel like as a player, I'm not sure, I guess.

First, you try to make it to Koshien, and then if you go pro, I'm sure those games are important too. But just on the commoner level, like a spectator view, it's just kind of like Koshien is more exciting. And I think also it has a longer history. You know, when baseball came into japan in the 1870s it was first spread among students there was no such thing as sports at the time the only martial arts so baseball was kind of placed as a martial art and incorporated

into youth education and so student baseball amateur baseball started way earlier than the professional league i mean pros only started in the 1930s in Japan after Babe Ruth came along. And people were like, oh, we can make money playing and selling tickets in baseball. So that came much later. So it's really the root and the most authentic form of the sport in Japan is in high school baseball. It has to be a real challenge as a filmmaker, because you, you know, this is a engaging and compelling spectacle, regardless of how successful the teams are. But obviously, among those 4000 teams, you want to profile a few that are actually going to make it to the tournament. So were these two that are featured in the films,

the only ones that you looked at and how did you select the programs that you were going to profile and track yeah great question i mean exactly it was a really hard task to try to predict you know try to pick teams that would make a good film because yeah we didn't need every team to make it to koshien but when you title the film koshien you want some team to get there and we actually filmed with four teams, so only two in the film. But we just had to hedge our bets. And yeah, it was just when you don't know, you know, even the best teams, if you lose once, you're out. So it's very, it was very hard to plan.

And also, you know, you don't know who's going to make the team. You don't know who's going to hit that, that clench hit that makes it, you know, makes themselves a hero. So a lot of unpredictability and all the, all I can do, all we can do is just film a lot, basically. Yeah. Must've been a big job of editing, which you also did. So you ultimately focus on two coaches at two high schools, a coach named Mizutani and one named Sasaki. And Mizutani is sort of the old school, stuck in his ways traditionalist, and Sasaki is his protege and seems somewhat more flexible and has gone on to greater success. So what led you to those two figures?

And I guess what were the strengths and weaknesses that you were trying to capture? Right. Well, because we always wanted this film to be seen internationally, particularly for like a North American audience where baseball is already such a big deal, we thought it would be a good idea to connect our film to Japanese major leaguers that the U.S. audience already knows. And so that was a criteria. Another one was picking this area of Yokohama, this region where baseball is particularly intense and also this region where baseball is particularly intense, and also this area where baseball was imported originally in the 19th century to kind of be able to go back into its history. Those were kind of the two things we set off to look for.

And once we met Mizutani, who, yes, as you see, is a very intense coach, although quite typical. He's not like the scariest or strictest coach I ever met. He was a little bit above average, I would say, but a very typical kind of representing how high school baseball has been really for the past century, I would say. And then finding out that he mentored Sasaki, who then produced Otani and Yusei Hikuchi,

two major leaguers now and and realizing that you know this is a story where the mentee has surpassed the mentor and then now there's like a Mizudani's son was going to be sent to Sasaki to be to be raised in high school so lots of different dynamics it's not just going to be about two teams and if they make it to Koshien a lot of human relationships at play we thought we kind of youoshien a lot of human relationships at play um we thought we kind of you know had a lot of the elements we were looking for to to make a documentary also because we're trying to make a film about high school baseball but also about society at large and how japan has been and how it's changing so we thought these would be two

teams and i don't see the two coaches as total opposite, even though sometimes people say that, because Sasaki definitely has taken the base of his mentor Mizutani in terms of being strict and having, you know, having this, you know, really using high school baseball to educate the next generation. He's just kind of a generation younger and is willing to incorporate new ideas with that with that base of Mizutani so I really think Sasaki is the the future but um so that that dynamic between the two and acknowledging that the base of where Japan has come from while trying to explore where it's headed was what I was trying to do with the two coaches yeah I was going to ask you about the the training regimen um it sounds like it's fairly typical. The kind of running that they're doing in the outfield far exceeds any sort of running that they might have to do in a real game state. But I'm curious what the state of the conversation in Japan is around a lot of emphasis on character and how this experience whether it goes well or badly is going to inform the lives that these young men lead and is this thought of as an institution that does need to sort of change and move forward in terms of its techniques or is it thought of as as sort of exemplary in doing what it needs to to

mold young people into sort of productive members of society. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of conversation on both sides. There's people who, you know, I mean, first of all, everybody, a lot of people love high school baseball, but there's always, I think, and in recent years, increasingly so, this conversation about like, is it really necessary to be this intense? it too much it's so hot they really need to play in the the heat like that are they throwing too many pitches you know are they shedding their bodies too much like and also just the type of children the type of students that are now in you know the the 2010s or 2020 now is so different from for example kids that were growing up in the post-war period so there's there's a lot of conversation about needing to change.

And every summer there's, you know, there's a lot of kind of criticism also about the sport and where the tournament is played. But I think what I find kind of interesting is ultimately, though, when the tournament rolls around, you know, even in the year we filmed, is ultimately though when the tournament rolls around you know even in the year we filmed the most people ever in the history of the tournament went to see the games the the ratings on tv were so so large and people just went wild you know so there's definitely that contradiction where there's these concerns and and changes are being made slowly although any change that is made is also met with a lot of inertia and i'm just i think it's it's each change is made with a lot of discussion but i i picked the topic because i really think it does represent this this crossroads that japan also faces i mean pre-covid in society there was

also a lot of talk about japan japanese working force just working too hard um we feature in our film how there was a lot of conversation about that. And just, you know, I mean, yeah, a lot of our suicide rate and kind of our overworking issues are really problematic. And so there's also discussion about needing to change that. So it's a parallel. I think, you know, in a way, there's a lot of like, you know, in the post-war Japan really had to work hard to build itself up to,

you know, the country it is today. But now what? You know, like some people and also baseball is treated as still with that mentality yet we're okay now. So I think that's the discussion. Whereas Japan headed in these extremities still necessary. That's definitely a conversation. Yeah. So you're using baseball as a lens to tell this larger story about Japanese culture and generational change and there's this tension I guess that exists on a societal level and then baseball is kind of a microcosm of that or a good way to investigate that

and so I think in the beginning of the film Mitsutani says that he is not going to change you know he's a 20th century man and he's happy that way, but he sees the success that Sasaki has with maybe a little more flexibility or I guess a lighter hand on the rein. And it seems like by the end of the film that Mizutani has kind of opened himself up a little bit to the idea of changing his style. I don't know what's happened since you filmed with him or his team, but do you think that he really is receptive to that? And

do you think the sort of dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists like him who've been doing this for decades will really be able to adjust, or will it just have to be a new generation that comes along and does things differently? Right. I think that 100th tournament that we filmed, which you will see in our film, he really built his life towards Mizutani. He tried to have a son who would play in the 100th tournament. And when he had a daughter instead, he named her the opposite of to win. Chika in Japanese, if you flip the name, means to win. And he did this so that

he could win in the 100th tournament is he's been quite um obsessed with this year and the fact that that year didn't pan out the way he'd hoped i think and he said himself you know the score scoreboard is my report card i mean he goes into this tournament and it's it's it doesn't really work out for him um i think that was a true turning point and almost like you know we witnessed him kind of get broken i mean he was just not the same man he was after that um that he was before and it's been a few years now and i and he has definitely um i'm i'm sure has implemented changes but also my my realization is that i think someone like him no matter if he he is determined to change,

it's really not that easy. I mean, he was raised a certain way and then he's been a coach for almost 30 years doing it a certain way. So he can make small changes and be determined to do that. But I think like if you want to see his team play now, it'd be pretty similar to, you know, how you saw in the film. It's just, I think it's really hard and i think really it's going to take the next generation like sasaki and then even kids who are younger to to kind of you know keep evolving and the sport would evolve that way and you know i think the fact that misutani had the whatever it took the insight or the realization that he should send his son away to his protege and for example not raise him himself I think insight like that is is truly special I don't think any of every coach

could have had that realization so I think that's where he's maybe realizing certain things that maybe his way is not the future but it's definitely been the past and I think is he struggled with it we definitely saw him struggle with it. I'm curious what the process of filming was like and how welcoming these schools were to you being there what their expectations were around you sort of obviously being very present in the course of their practices and exhibition games but also I imagine needing to stay out of the way to a certain extent so that they could do the training that they wanted to. Were the kids excited to have you there?

And how did you start to identify who, apart from the coaching staff, who some of the players were who would be protagonists, for lack of a better word, in the course of the documentary? Right. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, Mizutani always says that he said to me when I first met him, like, sure, of course, if you get permission. I think that's why, you know, this world, even though it's been so famous and just a part of Japanese summer for 100 years, has not reached an outside audience to this extent before. And so when we did get permission and I came back, he, you know, to his credit, he kept his word. You know, he, I don't think he realized we were going to be there every day for like 60 days, you know over the course

of a few months but we did and he never said don't come anymore and he he really let us film whatever he there was you know we were just around the different areas of the the baseball fields um filming whatever we wanted and that that's why we can make a film like this you know he really trusted understood what we were trying to do and trusted us that way. And also, the students. For me, being around 129 17-year-old boys, basically, was a lot. Figuring out who are we going to focus on. I knew we wanted to feature the seniors because it was really their year, but even there was 49 seniors.

When you don't know who's gonna make the team really or who's gonna be the hero who might get hurt or who's gonna become important for the team's victory or or loss it's it's it's it's really difficult so ultimately in the spring we filmed with you know we interviewed over 30 30 of the seniors and i would say it was almost like a casting process and as it went on ultimately we really featured two players from Hayato and then a third one the freshman mentor that comes up a little bit but I feel like we could have told the stories in that depth for maybe four or five more kids we just had a lot of material and ultimately we had the you know we could choose

what we included in the editing based on kind of what we wanted each student to represent. And when I wanted to make sure there was different kind of positions and stories within the abusive practices, or maybe not even borderline when it comes to the past of Koshien and Japanese high school baseball, whether it is working pitchers really hard in the tournament, sometimes leading to injuries, or just some of the stricter or more punitive practices and punishments. Corporal punishments. I remember Hiroki Kuroda speaking several years ago about how when he was a kid, he was hit with bats by his coach and was made to kneel for hours on hot pavement and deprived of water and forced to run endlessly. And there have been more recent incidents that are pretty disturbing. I'll link to a story in case anyone wants the details. I wonder, you know, in terms of sort of the physical effects of that, the psychological effects of that, what are some of the, I suppose, horror stories that have kind of

come out of that and have those largely been eradicated at this point? And do people defend them, I guess, on the grounds that, well, this is going to be the biggest moment in the athletic lives of most of these players. And so, you know, if you're not going to go on to be a Shohei Otani, then maybe this is the pinnacle. Maybe you're willing to leave it all out there on the mound, but that could have costs down the road. Yeah, it's really the nature of how high school baseball is and how the tournament is set up, where it's a knockout tournament. And I feel like, for better or for worse, the sport is so popular because it's so extreme. where it's a knockout tournament. And I feel like, for better or for worse, the sport is so popular because it's so extreme and it's almost like tied together.

And I think that's why it's so interesting to watch now in the 21st century, but also why there's criticism and legit concerns. And I think definitely it's not a thing of the past, these things you raise. Although I think, it's not a thing of the past you know these these things you raise although I think for example the most famous story of like a student over a student throwing a lot of pitches is Daisuke Matsuzaka who went on to become a major leaguer too who you know threw 900 and something pitches or in Koshien over the course of I think 10 days or a little over under two weeks and he won Koshien

and he became the just the biggest superstar I mean despite what his career afterwards which has also been quite good in Japan and in the US we all remember him for that 18 year old that sacrificed him his arm and himself for an inspiration for the nation you know and I think that's that's how it is and um even the other students that yeah will never play baseball again it's almost like there's this this feeling that you know yeah going to Koshien is the peak of some of these kids lives and probably the end of their baseball careers and while there is criticism about you know concerns about their future i feel when i see the crowds and see how japanese people react to koshi and when it's playing it's

almost like we have this understanding and that it's at the at the sacrifice of you know to inspire the country in a way and um and that's how it's how it's been i think you know that's why as you know there's rules being implemented, there's a few pitch count rules that are trying to be implemented in different ways to manage the length of games now. Different things have been tried, and it'll, I'm sure, impact the sport, but I think once the feeling of the kids giving it their all or the extreme parts of the sport start to

disappear it'll also not be high school baseball anymore it's quite difficult that way so I am wondering how you know I just wonder what high school baseball will be like in a decade or two honestly. You've mentioned some of the the major leaguers that have come out of this tournament and I'm curious how easy it was and how enthusiastic Otani and Kikuchi were to participate in the documentary and to share their stories the way that they that they talk about the tournament is, you know, it's it sounds almost as exciting as as playing in the major leagues. So what was their participation like? And how were they as interviews? Yeah, the interviews came about truly thanks to Sasaki, their high school coach, who personally

asked them, especially at the time, Otani was not doing any press at all. So we really had this special opportunity to talk to him. Both of the interviews took place at their high school during their kind of paying visit to their coach after their season. So it was a very kind of special occasion. And yeah, I think both of them, you know, although they were six or nine years out of high school at the time, they acknowledged that it just formed them, not just as players, but also as people. I mean, that's the thing. When you go through a program like that between the age of 15 and 18, it really forms who you are.

And especially Sasaki has all these ways to kind of mentally train and build character in a way that you plan your life and you have goals and you work towards those goals. And when you see the diaries of both of those players from their high school, they just knew always knew they wanted to be the best and they articulated and they had clear ways to get

there so I think they they you know they're still very close to their high school coach I think you know a lot of players especially players that succeed have this very special relationship with their high school coaches I'm not sure it's the case, for example, with other major leaguers who come from other cultures. But for me, Yusei was a huge Koshien star. He almost won the whole thing. And as you see in the film, he, you know, he was, at the time, he says he was okay, even if the pitch at the game at Koshien became his last game, because he was in a lot of pain, and ultimately they found out he had a broken rib. But that was the type of mentality he had to take that,

to make that coach proud. And then Otani, he was well-known, and he threw 100 miles per hour in high school, but in his senior year, shockingly, didn't make it to Koshien. And actually, I felt like more than anything Otani said in the interview, when I found the footage of his devastation and the aftermath of that loss, it just said everything. You know, there was a time where Otani was just, you know,

I don't think we'll ever see him like that again when he's just weeping and just so upset that not just that he lost, but just this feeling that he couldn't take, you know, disappointed his community, then that they couldn't, you know, take the community to Koshien. And I thought that was just a, you know, now that's a big star. Yeah, it's just very precious footage. So yeah, you see that in the film.

Yeah, the format is so challenging, though, in that you have like 4000 teams contending for a spot in the tournament. And it's just single elimination to get in and then single elimination when you get in. And I think of it as well, gee, this is all small sample. And you know, if you lose the game, that doesn't necessarily mean that you were not good enough to be there good enough enough to win. It's just, it's one game. And when we look at the playoffs in the States and MLB, we talk about how it's, you know, so subject to chance and randomness. And so I felt bad for Mizutani's team when he loses in the first game, spoiler, and he sort of, you know, as you said, he considers that the report card and it's just, you know, it's a failure. And I wonder whether there is any sort of perspective on, well, it's one game. It's not necessarily a reflection of our entire effort to get here or how good we are as a team, because it just seems like that's your shot make or break and if you don't win those games then you're a failure and

i wonder whether there's you know more of a philosophical approach to it like hey we've you know had a good year we just happened to lose this particular game yeah i feel like that perspective is like generally lacking um um although although i think i mean that's the way the system is unless you win the whole thing you know if there's 4,000 teams 3,999 of those teams lose at some point and it's so much about losing and

the audience is watching to see how gracefully they lose and I think that's a very different it also reflects I think part of the culture where i feel like my impression of the the u.s is like you know the the winners are the heroes of course i mean and the results are really important that's kind of a big part of sports but in japan the process and the the really the journey to get there and how how they lose like the beauty of losing and

even you know some of the most captivating images of koshian is when the losing team scrapes some dirt of from koshian into their bag so they can take it home and share it with their community and cherish it for a lifetime and like the kids weeping as they scrape dirt is just a symbol of koshian and the camera cuts to that after a game almost more than the winning team that will go on to the next round so it's so much um about that and i think yeah and it's because of this system that a lot of teams know that their chance of going to koshien is really low although every team does have a chance but i think it's the education that can take place within that framework that is what makes high school baseball magical it's that feeling of really

going going for it and then kind of building character and becoming better human beings in the process and then when the defeat happens taking that as a life lesson too I mean ultimately although you know Mizutani you know he definitely his dream is to keep going to Koshien, but he understands that that framework allows him to educate. And I think the kids, you know, the kids understand that, like, although they're devastated, as you see in my film a few weeks later, their life moves on. They're 18 years old and they will take these lessons and use them in their adult life.

I think what I realized making the film was just the the coaches who have to do this year in and year out I mean Mizutani's doing this for 30 years and you know has only made it to Koshien once which is a triumph but the other 29 times or the 20 something times he has to experience that yes yet he keeps doing it and so there's something I could never be a high school baseball coach but there's something that yeah he be a high school baseball coach, but there's something that, yeah, he he's obsessed with it. But he understands that the results are not everything. He just can't say that. I mean, he just has to be that way so that the to have a certain type of education.

This is obviously a tournament you grew up watching and had prior experience with and context for. and had prior experience with and context for, but I'm curious what sort of revealed itself and surprised you about Koshin and the teams that compete in it and the kind of mentality of the coaches and players as you were filming. Yeah, I mean, I think I was just an average consumer of the tournament, you know, I mean, you can't avoid it if you're in Japan in the summer. And I also happened to go up 15 minutes away from Koshin Stadium. So it's always just right there. But I think what you realize is that, you know, in order to make it to Koshien, you know, there's these regional tournaments that where, you know, the 4,000 teams are knocked down to 50. And that's, I feel like truly where a lot of the drama happens. I mean, making it to Koshien is is you know once you're there of course the kids

there want to win but it's kind of you've you've made it versus that the regional tournaments and then if you start going to the fields and the fact that they practice 360 days a year from morning till night they they really do just to try to make it there and then is is astounding I mean it just goes beyond my imagination and and then yeah as I I mentioned I think these it's one thing for the kids to have one shot and then have this summer of dreams and and give it their all but I think looking back what I was has still stuck with me is you know coaches like Mizutani not just him although we he kind of represents them all that you know I think of just the boys at heart still even though they're in their 50s just chasing this dream especially if they didn't make it as a student themselves just

like trying to get to this this place and that's why I think I called it the field of dreams and I know there's a of course a famous American film with that same title, which is a very different kind of Field of Dreams. You know, Mizutani is so obsessed with going to Koshien that he never saw his own son play baseball because he was so busy with his team. So he said a totally different version of it. And I think it just represents, yeah, just the great things and also probably the flawed things about Japan itself. Yeah, just the great things and also probably the flawed things about Japan itself. Yeah, it clearly takes a toll and not seeing his son play and, you know, his wife who seems to tolerate his obsession somewhat, but clearly isn't thrilled about his abandoning the child rearing to the sport takes a toll on the players who a lot of them say in the film that, you know, this is character building and it's not just about the athletic success, but I wonder whether some kids don't respond well to the system, the strictness and the harshness of it and subordinating your own identity to the team,

even down to everyone having the same shaved head, at least until Sasaki decides to change that toward the end of the film. But maybe it's kind of like high school football culture in the United States. But I wonder whether kids look back on their high school baseball years in Japan and say, that was great. That taught me valuable lessons. That was the best time of my life. Or do some look back and say, boy, that was a nightmare. I mean, I don't know, especially if you're not on the A team, if you don't make the starting roster, you're going through all that effort and, you know, running all those laps and maybe not getting to be the star the way that Daisuke was. but that they learned so much I mean I feel like very few and even you know now these these students these kids I filmed are now you know two years out of high school and I saw a lot of them this summer when the film was released in in Japan but they they they don't say it was the the best time

of their life but they all say like they they learned so much and they're finally starting to understand some of the you know some of the things the coach was saying that you know then it's just almost like such an intense experience that it might take years to kind of unfold everything that they went through but I think I hear a lot of former high school baseball kids say like you know because we went through what we went through like we're you know the rest of life is easy you know like just the time like you know just being so, like they will never have to go through something like that again. So there, you know, and I don't know if that's good or good or not, but I think, um, and, you know, and a lot of students also, I mean, when they're adults are very prideful that they were a part of her. And I think still former high school baseball students, whether you go to Koshien or not, whether you're on the

A-team or not, like once you graduate, it starts really not to matter and there's kind of a certain position they have in society or like once you learn that about someone everyone's like oh wow you know there's like that type of a reaction because you kind of imagine the training they went through and you know i was learning also while we were filming that these days some companies when they hire you know have a few slots for people who played high school baseball because they can expect a certain character, you know, things like that. So there's definitely a very specific position of that. And yeah, I think it was funny. It was fun to meet a bunch of the students who are now around 20 years old coming to see the film

and it was very like what what I was left with was them realizing you know it's only been two years but just seeing themselves on screen what they went through I think they're starting to get perspective it's still early but just and they they love their coach you know they the Mizutani still takes care of them if they need anything they still have this a lot of them still have this relationship and that'll life like last a lifelong time so that was also nice to see and speaking of stars who took their teams to Koshin you also did a documentary series about Ichiro called Dear Ichiro what did you learn about him and his sort of unique approach to the game and the adoration that it has inspired? Yeah, so I like to think of myself as the biggest Ichiro fan in the world. And that's why I did that series.

I mean, I read a book about him when I was a kid, just as he was going to the majors. And he became my goal in terms of I was like okay just like him I want to find something I love to do do it every day get really good at it and become the best this is kind of how I thought as a 10 year old and by the time I was 13 I was freaking out being like you know Ichiro knew he wanted to play baseball since he was three I'm 13 now and I still don't have this thing I want to do. And that's when I picked up a camera and ultimately decided to be a filmmaker. And he's really had a big impact on my life the way I think. And I think also my generation just realizing that, oh, you can go to America or some other country if you want to and thrive there.

I ended up going to New York when I was 19 to study filmmaking and stayed there for almost a decade also I think I really impacted by Ichiro that he was so successful in the U.S. and me also wanting to challenge myself to to study in a place where I thought filmmaking is the best so he's really really had this impact on me and and I think making that series which is um yeah Dear Ichiro mostly about other fans of all sorts of generations and who like him for all sorts of reasons they're the impact he's made on their life which is not the same way as me I mean the older generation saw him you know I think a lot of company men salary men in Japan saw him as their hero too because he just,

you know, did such a good job every day. And also towards the end of his career, when he wasn't playing it every day, he prepared as though he could. And that mentality, that kind of attitude inspired a certain type of a person. And I also went to Seattle and, you know, found a few fans on the other side, you know's my age but grew up in Seattle, who basically Ichiro made him curious about Japan and he came to Japan and studied Japanese. And so you can see that him, and also if you combine his years in Japan for almost 30 years, he was just this icon

and I think had such an impact on society in Japan and to a degree in the US. And for me, he made me who I am. So it's not a coincidence that I ultimately ended up making a documentary also about high school baseball, which I think is the root of, you know, all Japanese players mentality. Well, as someone who grew up in Seattle, I can confirm that he inspired a generation of baseball fans. He was really quite a treat to get to watch in his prime. It was incredible. I want to end on what I hope isn't too much of a down note. I imagine that like much else going on in the world right now that Koshin has been impacted by COVID-19. I'm curious what the state of the tournament was this year

and what the organizers are hoping they'll be able to do next year if there were changes made yeah so the koshan tournament was canceled this summer for the first time since the war and that was obviously inevitable but also a big big deal and for for us you know the freshmen in our film it was their turn to be seniors and mizdani's son and all the other freshmen we we know were directly impacted they just didn't get a chance to go there there was there were regional tournaments ultimately but just

they just you know but they couldn't have the Koshien the main tournament and I think and actually that's why our film got to I feel like for us you know whether it's the lack of sports really and especially the lack of

Koshien gave us this opportunity in Japan to release the film at that time which was not part of the original plan and so I think it gave people a chance to think about it was supposed to be the 102nd tournament this year and it was

paused and I have no doubt it'll come back hopefully next year You know, it's been going on for, it was supposed to be the 102nd tournament this year, and it was paused. And I have no doubt it'll come back, hopefully next year, you know, if COVID allows. But, you know, that's not going to be the end of it. But I think when something that has continued for so long has to stop because of unforeseen circumstances, it's going to be an opportunity and also almost like a danger to figure out how they want to continue it I wonder if a certain type of era has has finished and there will be now a lot of changes as high school baseball comes back I don't think it's automatic that this tournament can just become the center of Japanese summer automatically you know that's not how culture works with a lot of people have

to want it and want the desire for it to be remain that important in society and i think that is going to be the the struggle because as we've talked about it's it's um you know there's certain parts of it that are just not really with the times anymore but i also think it's an opportunity to figure out okay so what does need to change and i always think the most important line in the film that I heard during the course of the filming was what Sasaki said about, there's all these wonderful traditions

that high school baseball has, and those have to be protected. And then there's all these things that have to be changed, and those things have to be changed. And the million dollar question is, so what remains and what changes? And I think that's going to become crucial. And i think that's true for a bigger society you know in japan and and maybe you know the rest of the world too covid has given us this expedited or heightened moment

where all these things come you know a lot of change is happening and i just hope you know change is is okay but i hope like the wrong things are not changed, you know, because I think the spirit of high school baseball has, is the spirit of Japan in a way. And I think it's going to be challenging to figure out what changes and what doesn't, but I think those, that road is, you know, really coming up and hopefully it looks like they're at least trying to have a regular season next year. They've had the fall tournament and they'll have a spring tournament if possible. So in Japan, at least right now, there's a lot of sports tournaments are going on. Movies are at full capacity.

So we're doing quite well over here. So if this can be kept up, I think there will be a Koshien in 2021. Yeah, I wonder if Koshien were a United States institution, whether we would have even had the discipline to cancel it or whether it just would have gone ahead because that's how we've handled things here. Not very well at all. And you've lived in both places and have spent a lot of time in both countries. And I guess you've seen the disparity in the response. And NPB, of course, was affected, but was able to play more of a season than MLB was and was able to welcome some fans back into the stands because the situation was more under control than it has been here. And I wonder whether there's any connection between the cultural practices and traditions that you are exploring in the film and the response

and the efficacy of Japan's response to the pandemic compared to our response here, you know, which is bad compared to almost everywhere in the world, but Japan among the many places that have handled it better. Yeah, honestly, I think there is it's you know when we made the our quotient film we of course did not foresee this pandemic or the fact that it might you know tie tie into all this but i do feel like yeah what what's seen in our film but also yeah just what japanese um society is like i mean i think the covid responses has really revealed the character of that place or that that culture or or that country, that city and Japan. Yeah. I mean, you know, some, some of the viewers of our film, I think, Oh my God,

this is so strict and conforming and self-sacrificial and it's, it's true. And, and that is a lot of what Japan is right now, but those, those, you know, that feeling of being responsible for the bigger group you know like is why I think we've handled the the COVID relatively well I mean you know we we already were wearing masks if we had a slight cough just so that we wouldn't we make sure like no one else caught our cold you know even before COVID and you know the idea of following rules and being due as we're asked is natural to us. I mean, that's kind of how society works.

And so I think those things that have resulted in, yeah, this type of response. And I remember when the film aired on ESPN in June, when we were following the Twitter feed and there were certain tweets about like, oh, like, look at this. That's why Japan's handling the pandemic so well, like Americans should follow some of the rules to, you know, this type of feedback, which was, which was interesting. Yeah, right. Well, hopefully it'll come back and along with everything else in 2021. And I guess one more thing that I meant to mention, are there certain teams and programs that

are just locks for Koshin every year? You know, where if you were to look ahead to next year's tournament, you'd say, well, this team and that team, they will certainly be there, you know, whether they win or not, we'll see. But is it like that where certain teams are so favored every year that you can kind of count on them at least getting to the tournament or are upsets just incredibly common you know no matter whether you're a powerhouse or not yeah i think you know i mean there are certain teams in certain prefectures also depending on the prefecture you know just the the number of teams and the number of times you have to win to get to koshien is is so different you know in in iwate Sasaki's team is, for example, I think you have to win five times to make it to Koshien,

versus in Kanagawa, where Mizutani's, I think you have to win nine times. So it's just like the different things that make it harder to get to Koshien. So there are certain teams in certain prefectures, I would say, that have an over 50% chance, so this feeling that they'll go.

But I would say that's still 50 percent I mean even Sasaki who supposedly has the best team in his prefecture it's always like comes down to that by the final innings and sometimes he doesn't sometimes he doesn't it's really this is this ton of it's full of upsets and I think that's what makes the sport so and so exciting and when a first-timer team does make it to the ocean, like the nation just has such a special place in our hearts for them, even if we've never heard of them before, you know, there's an excitement that any team does have a chance. And that's why it's so hard to plan a documentary about also. But there are a few teams that I feel like people,

you know, feel like it's a guarantee, but it's never 100%. And because there's so much pressure and so much attention, are there teams that are starting to integrate technology or sabermetrics to an extent, even at the high school level there? Like you see in the film, Sasaki is using high speed video or slow motion footage to improve one of his players techniques. And I wonder whether that is starting to make its way into the coaching level, the way it is, you know, in NPB and other high level leagues. Right? I mean, I don't think to that extent yet. But yeah, there must be there's just different sports science and also technology, I think, incorporated into various, various aspects. Also, there's a lot of I think, incorporated into various aspects. Also, there's a lot of, I mean, this has always been the case where, you know, you study the

other teams that you play through, you know, taping them and things like that. So a lot of that, I think, is happening. Yeah. But I think ultimately, yeah, there are no, I don't think there are any rules about that. But what happens, I think, then is, you know, I mean, high school baseball has never been an equal playing field. There's public schools, there's private schools, there's, you know, different discrepancies. But I fear that, you know, stuff like that will make the playing field even less even because, you know, the schools that kind of have more resources, I'm sure, can do all that as well. So we'll see how that'll impact the sport. All right. Well, we enjoyed and learned a lot from the film, Koshin, Japan's Field of Dreams.

We will let everyone know where to find it and check out the show page for the links. And we have been speaking to the director, Emma Ryan Yamazaki. Thanks very much for your time, Emma. Thank you. That'll do it for today. Thanks, as always, for listening. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. Following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some small monthly amount to help keep the podcast going and get themselves access to some perks.

Tim, Nate Mann, Sam Levine, Sam Isaacs, and Amelia Matler. Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. Keep your questions and comments for me and Meg and Sam coming via email at podcast.fangrass.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. You can still sign up for the Effectively Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. You can still sign up for the Effectively Wild Secret Santa if you have not already. Registration is open until December 1st.

Check the show page for the link. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. We'll be back with one more episode before the end of this week. If you don't hear us before then, have a happy Thanksgiving. I'm ready Go I will Stay Ahead Go