Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1629: One Hundred Years of Gratitude

Episode Date: December 15, 2020

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about secret baseball-playing robots and non-secret baseball-rooting robots, how coverage of NFL scoring changes compares to coverage of MLB scoring changes, and Meg’s research about changes in access to minor league games, follow up on the Mets signing James McCann, the Phillies hiring Dave Dombrowski, and the significance of […]

I got a whole lot of things to sing about. I got a whole lot of things to say. Like I love you and I need you every night and day. I got a whole lot of things I want to do. I got a whole lot of dreams to dream. And I want you to be beside, every step of the way. Hello and welcome to episode 1629 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Minberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Rowley of Fangraphs. Hello, Meg.

Hello. We're joined by Meg Rowley of Fangraphs. Hello, Meg. Hello. So we spoke a few episodes ago about the Fukuoka SoftBank hawks and how they have dominated NPB for the past several years. And we also talked briefly about Boston Dynamics and their sort of creepy robots. And both of those threads came together for me today because I read a story that informed me that Hyundai has just purchased

Boston Dynamics for a billion plus dollars from SoftBank, the company that owns the SoftBank Hawks. And to make matters more interesting, SoftBank bought Boston Dynamics from Google in 2017. That was the first year of the Hawks' current four-year streak of winning the Japan Series every year. So I'm not saying those things are related. I'm just saying it so happens that SoftBank bought this high-tech robot company the same year that their baseball team started winning the Japan Series every single season. Oh, no. I'm just wondering if there might be something to that.

Is it possible? Are they using robot ringers? This did not come up in our interview, but it has occurred to me now. wondering if there might be something to that. Is it possible? Are they using robot ringers? This did not come up in our interview, but it has occurred to me now. Having seen the video I think we're going to discuss, I think that we can perhaps put this particular conspiracy theory to bed in fairly short order. Yeah, so I sent you a video of a game from July, this past July in Japan, a SoftBancox game where they had the Boston Dynamics robots in the stands cheering. They were like the cheerleaders or the fans at this game

were the robots, and it was like two different kinds of robots. One is like the famous Boston Dynamics dog-looking type robot, and the other are more humanoid shaped but uh they're kind of like gyrating to the music and very creepily shimmying and shaking around i'm kind of mad at you for making me yeah this is nightmare fuel i need to draw your attention to the 58-second mark of the video that you sent me. Yes. Because here's the thing. Yeah, there are weird humanoid robots in this.

And you think to yourself, that's going to be the creepiest part of this experience is like the fake people. I'm here to say, the dog things, the little dog guys, which I think are just scarier on their face because their joints are articulated in a strange way. And they don't have faces, but they do have on hats. They have baseball caps. Yeah. And so that's a problem in itself. And then you get to like the 58 59 second mark and the the robots start to gyrate yeah and i sort of a suggestive way it's a it's a sexy dog dance and i do not care for it this this dog is trying to communicate something and i don't know yeah i don't know. Yeah. I don't know to whom. Sort of presenting itself.

It presents itself. It splays its legs a little bit. It moves its hinder. Yes. I don't like it. And there are two rows of these things. And so one of them is just like dancing, you know, for the crowd.

The other appears to be trying to back it up for the humanoid robots. It's like basically twerking almost. It's more of a circular motion. Yeah. And it suggests a humanoid dog robot interspecies amalgam that seems like a violation of God's laws or at least robot ethics. Yeah. I'll link to the video. Don't watch it.

But I will link to it if anyone wants to see what we're talking about. Yeah. I'm changed, Ben. Yeah. I am changed by this. So they weren't trying to hide the SoftBank Boston Dynamics connection because they had their products here in the stands. They were advertising that link. But you would think just seeing this, well, these don't look like robots that could pass for people and baseball playing people.

But maybe that's just the cover. Maybe you just put these very non-human looking ostentatious robots in the stands so that you can hide your secret robot players who are winning the Japan series every year. I'm just saying that it would not totally shock me if that streak ended at four years now because someone else has purchased Boston Dynamics. Who is the dog being sexy for? I don't really know. Not for us us that's for sure are there a lot of like bark in the park days in npb is the is the boston dynamics dog meant to be i know that what you wanted to do was talk about a robot conspiracy but what i want to do is talk about the weird sexy robot dogs so i'm sorry we're cross purposespurposes here. I like their little caps, though.

And their flags. They wear flags, too. And flags. And this is the other thing. It's like, pick a thing, right? You don't have to do all the stuff. You should pick one thing. You're too showy.

Yeah. Well, anyway, I just figured I would raise that question, and other people can look into it and do the reporting. But it just stood out to me. Other people can look into it and do the reporting, but it just stood out to me. So we have a guest today, and it's truly a treat, this interview, I think. We both enjoyed it quite a bit, and it is a returning guest. So we have had the pleasure of having Eddie Robinson on this podcast before. Eddie was on episode 1454 with us, and actually he was briefly on 1505 as well, the little narrative sign-stealing podcast I did. I called him up for that one too, but we had a lot of fun talking to him about 13 months ago on the show. And he is now the oldest living former major leaguer,

and he had a 65-year career in baseball, both as a player and as an executive and a scout and really everything you can do in baseball, he has done. And he is now a podcaster. He may be the oldest living podcaster for all I know. Certainly the oldest living baseball podcaster, I would think. And I have plugged his podcast on the show before. It's called The Golden Age of Baseball with Eddie Robinson. And if you are listening to this on Tuesday, December 15th, it just so

happens to be Eddie Robinson's 100th birthday. So we wanted to have him on to wish him a happy birthday and get him to tell some stories and talk about his podcast. And as an added treat, we got to talk to Mrs. Robinson as well. Betty Robinson, Eddie's wife of 65 years. She hopped on the line too, and we got her thoughts as well, and it was great. And one of my favorite things about this podcast is periodically talking to former players who played in many cases a long time ago, and it just never seems to disappoint. So happy to have Eddie back again. Yes. In addition to his wonderful stories about baseball, we got some terrific advice about marriage and making your relationships last, which was just it was just a very nice conversation.

So I look forward to people being able to hear it. Me too. So I wanted to ask you a question in your capacity as a football fan, which is something that we do not have in common. So I wanted to ask for your perspective here. I know that scoring is up quite a bit in the NFL this season, that teams are scoring at record rates, at least entering this past weekend. Teams were averaging more points per game and yards per game and first downs per game than in any season in NFL history. I assume that is still the case. And I know there

are a lot of potential reasons for this, and maybe it is pandemic-related. I know there are teams like playing without quarterbacks at times, although I guess that doesn't help you score. But there's all sorts of strangeness going on, of course, but it seems like also offensive holding is way down, and that has been something that is suggested as a possible cause here, and maybe that is something that the league has instructed the officials to do. Anyway, I've seen a fair number of articles about this, so it's certainly a story, but I was wondering if anything stood out to you about the way that that's covered versus the way that run environment changes in baseball are covered, because in baseball it's such a huge deal

when anything changes statistically. And if scoring is way up or way down or home runs are way up or way down, we all write about it and talk about it ad nauseum and people are very upset about it. And it sort of screws with the statistical consistency across eras and people are up in arms about that. And in football, I know all that stuff has been changing quite a bit because they've changed so many rules and there's just so much more emphasis on passing and yardage.

And so if you compare quarterback stats to previous era's quarterback stats, they're hardly on the same scale and all. So I was wondering if there is the same sort of, I don't know whether it's outrage, probably not outrage, but just consternation or sense of mystery about why this is happening or how we can compare across eras. Or in football, where it seems like even with PD violations, people just don't seem to mind as much as with baseball. to mind as much as with baseball. And I wonder whether you've noticed any difference in the way that those two sports that you follow kind of cover league-wide changes like this. So this joke won't mean anything to you, Ben, because you don't actually watch football, but I root for the Seahawks, who for the first part of the season had just like a historically

bad defense. So it was at times hard to discern what was a new trend and what was just the team I like most being really bad. But I think in general, there is some consternation about it. I think that it tends to manifest in two ways. The first of which is that, yes, I think some of the increase in run scoring is attributable to a dip in offensive holding calls. Some of it is also the result of sort of how careful defensive players are now expected to be both when it comes to how they physically contact quarterbacks specifically, and then just more generally sort of how they are instructed to avoid any sort of helmet to helmet contact. And so I think that there's probably,

I haven't actually looked at this, and the folks at Football Outsiders probably have a study on this, but it seems like penalty yardage related to that stuff has gone up. So some of it is that NFL offenses are advancing downfield with the assistance of penalty yardage, right?

It's not unusual to watch a game and hear the announcers bemoaning how defensive football just isn't what it used to be. And you can't even look at the quarterback anymore. And so some of it is, I think, related to that. Some of it is also just that the concentration of talent at the quarterback position is pretty incredible in the places that it's good right now. So some of it is also just that we're in a very fortunate era of quarterback play, right? We get to watch some really exciting and dynamic quarterbacks who drive high scoring offenses and I think have offensive game plans tailored to their strengths.

And so they're able to do better. And then I think some of it is also, and I don't know, I don't know how many sort of points on a season adjusted basis this is going to result in, but some of it is also that teams are getting savvier about going forward on fourth down. And so rather than kicking field goals, they're trying to convert fourth downs and then score touchdowns. So I wonder if that has something to do with it, which is also met with a bunch of blustering because the only thing that football analysts like more than like praising Tom Brady is bemoaning analytics and its intrusion on the game.

So I think that it's a combination of things, some of which are the results of changes in officiating, some of which is the talent, and some of which is just a change in strategy. I think that the way that it gets talked about, it's a little different than baseball. I think in part because the NFL isn't seen as an, even though they are giving direction to officials to officiate in a particular way, I don't think that they are perceived as being active in this in the same way that a lot of baseball fans perceive MLB to be in the change in the ball.

So I think some of it is that. I think some of it is that people are generally sympathetic to the idea that, for instance, you want less helmet-to-helmet contact in football because it leads to concussions, which lead to long-term brain damage. So some of it is that the rule changes, at least among, I think, probably a younger generation of fan, are sort of perceived as necessary, even if a lot of folks might on occasion miss the really hard-hitting defensive football of the past. really hard-hitting defensive football of the past. So yeah, I think that what I generally hear people sort of sad about is people who like defensive football miss prior eras, both from an impact perspective and also sort of a balance perspective. So in some of that might be similar to baseball.

I think people generally really like touchdowns. So I think it's really like touchdowns. So, you know, I think it's perceived a little bit differently. Like this is an offense oriented league. And so I don't think that it rubs people the wrong way because while you're still scoring touchdowns, I don't think we've had the optimization of how you do it. There's still a lot of teams that run the ball probably even when they would be better served to pass more often. And so I think that in general, there's still a fair amount of diversity in terms of how teams are scoring, even if they are scoring more on average. And so

I think that's an important difference with baseball also, because you don't have you don't quite have the same three true outcomes equivalent right in football so i think the way it gets talked about is a little bit different but i also think that like while football doesn't quite have the same like self-regard for its history and tradition that i think baseball does like football really enjoys talking about softness in a way that is deeply uncomfortable for me as a modern sort and so so you do get more of you do get some of that and it's much more pointed than like smolts being sad that starters don't go eight or nine, right? It comes with like the veneer of diminished masculinity in a way that can be really uncomfortable as someone who is admittedly probably not the target audience

for that commentary. It's like, oh, guys, I think you're doing something weird. Like hug your sons. It's fine. Yeah, okay. Well, that's interesting. It's hard for me to gauge because I've seen various research about it and studies, and it's interesting to me on that level. But I don't have a feel Or if it's just, yeah, this is what it is now. And maybe the fact that it's 2020 and there's so much strangeness going on means it just kind of goes under the radar a little, or at least you just figure, well, everything is weird and teams are playing without quarterbacks sometimes. So who even knows what is happening here and we shouldn't make too much of it.

I also think that there's a difference in the way that we perceive, say, a quarterback and a starting pitcher because the person that's directing that increase in scoring is active, right? They're the ones initiating what the action on the field is going to look like. And the defense is responding to it. And they have strategy and schemes and all sorts of stuff. So I don't mean to diminish like how much actual planning there is and sort of foresight and trying to predict what the quarterback is going to do.

But I do think it's a little bit different when the one initiating the action on the field is driving the trend toward increased scoring as opposed to pitchers really deciding like, here's what this hitter's gonna get and then getting you know a fastball hit 420 feet when they weren't expecting it so i think that part of it is when the increase in scoring corresponds with the person on the field that we naturally assume to be the protagonist in the game's narrative i think the perception of it is different too yeah yeah that's part of it sense right like no one's gonna look at patrick mahomes and be like i wish he'd score less sure a bummer when he's amazing you know like i mean i'm sure the fans of the teams that the

chiefs are playing wish that but otherwise yes i think that is kind of the consensus that baseball's optimized form is maybe a little less entertaining than other sports optimized forms right at least in some ways which is just kind of unlucky for baseball i guess in that uh the best way to play it the most efficient way to play it is maybe not the most entertaining and most fan-friendly way to play it so that's a tough thing to get around but uh we could probably devote a whole episode to this at some point maybe we'll get barnwell back on here and hash it all out. But just a couple quick things to follow up on stuff we talked about last week. We talked about the Mets and James McCann.

That is official now. It was supposedly close to completion when we discussed it. And now the Mets, who have also hired a new GM, Jared Porter, from the Diamondbacks, have completed the McCann contract. who have also hired a new GM, Jared Porter, from the Diamondbacks, have completed the McCann contract. We didn't have the terms, and now we know it's four years and $40 million, which is quite a bit more than was projected for James McCann, I think, by just about anyone coming into this offseason. And so it's still hard to gauge. I mean, for the Mets, I think you look at that and you think, well, are they keeping their powder dry here so that they can go after Springer or Bauer or someone and they're sort of saving here and not going after Real Muto so that they can go after the top guy at another position? I don't know, but I think the fact that McCann got this many years and this many dollars, this offseason is just sort of hard to suss out exactly what's happening here because we all expected it to be a free agent apocalypse.

And it has been slow. And Rob Arthur documented the other day at Baseball Perspectives how it's been moving more slowly even than some of the recent slow off seasons. That was prior to McCann's contract becoming official. contract becoming official, but it's slow. And yet the players who have signed have signed for, for the most part, what seems like quite reasonable or even expectations surpassing deals. So I don't know whether it's the fact that, well, most players haven't signed because they haven't been getting the offers that they've wanted. And so the few players who have signed, naturally, they would be the ones who did get good offers. And maybe they're going to prove to be unusual by the time it's all said and done. But so far, if you just looked at the

dollars, it wouldn't be that odd, I don't think. And maybe the years, like there hadn't been many more than one or two year contracts until McCann's. But now even James McCann, you know, 30 year old catcher is getting a fouryear deal despite basically a two-year track record of being a good player. And one of those years was abbreviated. So it's kind of hard to figure exactly how bad things are right now. Yeah, it's a weird market. And then you have the Royals signing Greg Holland. Yep, again.

For like almost $3 million. I don't know about these Royals. That's not the point of this little segment of the podcast, but I'm a little unclear on these Kansas City Royals and what they're up to. It's an odd thing. I think that the McCann deal, there

was some commentary after it was announced and sort of formalized that there was concern that Real Muto was not close to signing anywhere and they were nervous about not being able to secure his services and then being left with a lot of sort of lesser options between these two who, while I think there is a considerable gap between Real Muto and McCann, just like there's kind of a considerable gap between Real Muto and much of this free agent class, that McCann is probably the solid number two amongst the

catcher contingent. But look, it's always easy to sit on the outside and say, well, why didn't you just sign that guy? Because a lot goes into a free agent signing, and some of it is the team. And I think that we're right to criticize the parts of that that are sort of cowardly or cheap or what have you but some of it's the player too and the timeline that the player wants to operate on and how much they want to sign for and i think all of that is good to think about but i also just find

it really hard to believe that if you're the mets and you have all this steve cohen money and you got all these cohen bucks and you want to shower someone with them that you can't go to Real Muto and be like, how about this wild number? And that he wouldn't go, yeah, okay. I mean, maybe he doesn't want to play in New York. Maybe he doesn't want to play in Queens. Maybe he doesn't want to be the face of this new era of the Mets. Like, I don't know. I don't know Real Muto.

I don't know what his hierarchy of needs are when it comes to the next contract that he signs. But it does strike me as sort of an odd excuse because it's like if you're willing to spend the most money, then it seems like it's a non-issue. And, you know, there was reference made to a bidding war and what have you. But it's like you're never it seems hard to believe that you're going to get more efficient sort of bang for your buck in this market than signing Real Muto. Yeah. He's the best and it's a position of need on your roster. Like, what are we doing here? Right. Sandy Alderson seemed to suggest that it was a matter of timing, that they didn't want to wait around for him. But maybe a better offer would have made up his mind.

You know, I was reading another report. There was a report that DJ LeMayhew and the Yankees were like $25 million apart, but it was like, well, LeMayhew wants four years and 100 and the Yankees only want to give him four years and 75 or something. And like even 475, I think that is above what most people projected for LeMayhew in this market, which was expected to be so depressed. And so if that is the real difference between them, and there were some subsequent reports that suggested maybe the difference between them is actually bigger than that, but if that's the low number and maybe they end up meeting somewhere in the middle, then that's another data point that sort of says, huh, well, maybe this market won't be quite so disastrous, at least not for everyone. And in a piece I was reading about that at nj.com, it was mentioned, quote, it's believed the MLB Players Association has strongly suggested to free agents

not to accept deals just yet unless their exact price is met. Technically, it's still early in the offseason with spring training not scheduled to start until mid-February. There's a sense in the industry that spring training and opening day could be pushed back as the owners and players work to navigate another year in the time of the coronavirus and vaccine news. Get your price or wait it out is essentially what free agents are being advised, the person said. So if that's the case, then yeah, maybe the people who are signing got their price. But the fact that at least some players are getting their prices may be better than people expected coming into this yeah i think that it's i mean it's never a bad thing if what you want is if your expectation and hope for the market is that players will be paid commensurate with their talent when you see players meeting or exceeding your understanding

of where that lies from a dollar perspective, that's not a bad thing. It's never a bad thing. I do think that the back end of this McCann deal might end up looking kind of gnarly for the Mets because even as Craig Edwards pointed out when he wrote this up for us at FanGraphs, even if you assume that what he showed last year and in 2019 is his new baseline, he's still a catcher advancing into his 30s so he's gonna have age-related decline regardless of what his new sort of defensive and and hitting talent is but also you're steve cohen and you have billions of dollars so maybe you don't care about the back end of the deal like whenever yeah so it's funny

how cohen has become such a celebrity really since he bought the Mets. Everyone needs to chill out. Stop it. Yes, I know that his Twitter presence is amusing right now and almost endearing in a way in like how oddly punctuated it is at times. Like it seems like he is writing these tweets as opposed to getting someone else to write them for him. But yes, I mean, he is maybe not quite as cuddly as he seems from his tweets, but it is just sort of striking like how you already are a multi-multi-billionaire like Steve Cohen and a big person in the business world, but like most people didn't know who Steve Cohen was. I mean, you know, your average New Yorker didn't really

know who he was and yeah, maybe Bobby Axelrod was based on him, but he wasn't like a household name or anything. And yet you buy a sports franchise and suddenly everyone knows who you are. And millions of people in your city love you and follow you and hang on your every word. And he seems to be really enjoying this personal tweeting that he's doing. And he seems to be really enjoying this personal tweeting that he's doing. And that just kind of goes to show you, like, yeah, buying a sports team is a money-making venture or is treated as such by many people who purchase sports teams. But it's also just really about ego and about getting recognized in a way that you weren't and kind of like being the big man in town, you know, by the sports team. Like, get recognized. People know who you are.

People care what you say outside of the boardroom. People are talking about you. And so that's, I think, a big part of the reason why a lot of people want to buy sports teams. I mean, if you're Steve Cohen, yeah, maybe you think it is a valuable asset to add to your portfolio, but I'm sure he could invest that money in some other way that would make him just as much. So really, you'd probably do it because you want to be famous and you want to be liked in a way that you can't be just for being rich, really. So I guess that's a big part of why you would want to buy a sports team. I can hear our listeners saying, Meg, you always say that you want more Steve Ballmers in baseball, which I think is the sort of basketball equivalent to Cohen, right? We're here flamboyant and clearly super invested almost to the point of mania. And I think that, yeah, like if we're picking a mold of billionaire to engage with the sport, I'd rather one who's like, I'd like to win a World Series. And the way that I'm deriving

my sense of personal ego and satisfaction is by Mets Twitter liking me, which like as an aside, seems like a thing that should be examined with the help of a professional. But we all like what we like and some of the stuff we like is really weird. So that's, you know,

if that's Steve Cohen's thing, then go with God in a good wind. But I do, I do wanna, weird so that's you know if that's Steve Cohen's thing then go with God in a good wind but I do I do wanna I do wanna caution people though you should just it's okay just it's okay

to enjoy it clearly I'm not gonna tell people to not enjoy something in 2020 I am not a monster but just remember like you don't have to just don't give yourself away cheaply is all I'm asking folks like I'm remember like you don't have to just don't give yourself away cheaply is all i'm asking folks like i'm just saying you don't have to be impressed you don't have to be impressed you're not obligated he should put a good team on the field that's what he should be obligated to do as an owner you are not obligated to find him charming if you want to

that's cool but you don't have to it's okay i get I get it. If I were a Mets fan, I'm sure I'd be seduced by Steve Cohen right now. I mean, I don't know if you can even say he'll get milkshake ducked at some point because he's already had his company plead guilty to insider trading. So that happened already, I guess. But it's like if you've been living under the Wilpon regime for perhaps your whole life or decades, and then suddenly a competent person appears and speaks to you in a way that you would want your owner to speak and, you know, easier said than done. But, hey, he signed a couple free agents and that's encouraging. So I get it. I understand the cult of Cohen. I just thinking about it from his perspective, like, you know, if you're worth 14 billion or whatever, like, what more do you want or need? Like, what do you lack? And I guess the only thing money can buy really at that point is the kind of fame that he has now and like people caring about him in a way that they would not

have cared about him before or even heard of him. So it's just overnight, you know, you're a big figure in the business world. Most people don't know who you are. Then you buy a baseball team and suddenly you're famous and everyone's talking about you and liking you. He had very, very few Twitter followers when I discovered his account because he had started tweeting about the Met sale. Now he has more than 120,000 and he's gone from having fewer than 10 tweets in years to tweeting up a storm suddenly. So it's not just a good money-making venture, although it is that too. We're going to have to have Roth back on to ask him what his impression of the last couple of weeks has been because every time Steve Cohen tweets, I think about it, which is my own weird thing to admit, isn't it?

We also found out about the terms of Dave Dombrowski's deal with the Phillies. I guess he didn't get Andrew Friedman money, but he got Theo Epstein money. He got four years, $20 million. That's not a bad chunk of change if you are a baseball executive. And so, again, we remain curious, I think, about what he was promised and what he will manage to do there and whether he will convince John Middleton to spend. And I think someone mentioned, I think it was Foolish Baseball maybe mentioned on Twitter, that maybe Dombrowski's superpower is getting owners to spend. Like, it's not just that he is good at convincing players to sign for a lot of money, but he's maybe good at getting owners to extend that amount of money.

And I think someone else noted, which occurred to me shortly after we recorded, I think Craig Calcaterra pointed out that like historically speaking, Dave Dombrowski's weakness when it comes to team construction has maybe been bullpen building. And there's nowhere to go but up with the Phillies bullpen. So really it's just a perfect spot for him. Like he could put together some of those terrible Tigers bullpens and they would be a vast improvement over what the Phillies ran out there this year. So lowered expectations a little bit for him. So that's nice. But I was reading Matt Gelb's take on the hiring at The Athletic, and he was reminding me that, you know, Dombrowski was known as not like an anti-analytics guy with Boston, but maybe pumping the brakes a bit on the R&D department and not expanding it. And there was reportedly maybe some friction about that when he was with Boston. And Philly's kind of gone heavily or all in on more of a data-driven approach in recent

years. And obviously it has not panned out as we discussed recently. So I wonder whether he will turn back the clock at all there. And clearly he has had plenty of success building teams and winning the Dombrowski way. So it will be interesting to see whether he tries to win that way again or whether he has a new trick. But really, it's hard to be a Hall of Fame executive. There just aren't a lot of Hall of Fame baseball executives.

But if he were to win with this Phillies team, I don't know what else he could or would do to justify his spot in the Hall of Fame. I mean, he's already had so much success in so many places that you would have to put him up there as a strong candidate. Did you see Girardi's quote about the 2020 bullpen? No, what was it? He was asked today about it, and he said, I believe we could have told the hitters what was coming,

and it wouldn't have turned out as bad as it did. That's probably true. So yeah, nowhere to go but up up i remain kind of perplexed by this hire like you said we'll kind of see how it shakes out i do i hope that how do i want to say what i'm about to say it would be heartening to me if real muto was in philly come opening day like as a philly not just like coincidentally in philly on opening day and it would be neat if that were the result of dombrowski persuading ownership to retain his services at the rate that his talent deserves and not because james mccann got four years yeah and 40 million dollars and now he has to take a less good deal so just to bring it all

full circle you should go to LA though, and help, you know, the Angels make the playoffs. I think that's what I actually want. Yeah. Yeah. Middleton said in October, our R&D department has been good with one exception. I'm just being blunt. I look at Tampa. They're able to unlock the hidden value or potential in minor league players that have been around a while that they recognize something that we're not picking up on yet. I think that's one thing that this franchise needs to improve on our r&d needs to obviously help with that it's funny like every owner wants to emulate tampa right because they win and they don't spend any money so every owner thinks that's a good model let's uh hire

someone from tampa let's do things the tampa will be good. And I won't have to actually spend on my players. But yeah, if you want to emulate Tampa, you want that sort of progressive data driven player development approach. Dombrowski, you know, hasn't really proved that he can do that in this environment. He has done that in the past, of course, and he's drafted and developed well with Montreal and even with the Tigers to some extent, but he just didn't really have to do that with Boston. That just wasn't really in the job description. It was just take what we have and convert it into veterans and a World Series. And he did that. And so if they actually want him to have this, you know, skill at recognizing hidden talents or something, like, he has been in baseball for many decades,

and he has learned many things. And he doesn't have to have come up within the past five years to do that. It's just that if you're in baseball, like with any field, there's kind of a continuing education, and things change, and you have to stay apprised of the latest developments. And maybe he has. I guess we will find out soon yeah i guess we will and last time when we talked to jj cooper about the restructuring of the minor leagues i mentioned that you and ben clemens were following up on your research about access to the minor leagues and you have done that you

have published that research at fangraphs So you want to quickly sum up what you learned? Sure. So I think that conversation with JJ was illuminating for us as we were thinking about how to present this data, because I think that our general sense is that less in-person access to baseball is bad. And shifting baseball from the affiliated minors to like the summer wood bat leagues or these pro partner leagues was inherently bad and i think that jj kind of illuminated for me that there are a lot of open questions still when it comes to what the long-term effect is going to be for

player development going forward and the quality of play that some folks are going to see and who gets a chance to play affiliated ball and who doesn't and the economic future of both the affiliated minors and the baseball that used to be played in the affiliated minors and those franchises still kind of uncertain but what we were trying to do was answer the question like who is going to see their in-person access to baseball disappear, and who is going to see the character of that access change. So it's one thing to have, you know, a minor league team within driving distance of your house. It's another thing if the only baseball team you have access to is, say, the major league team, because that's going to be a more expensive proposition. Maybe the pro partner leagues or the summer what bad leagues don't have the same emotional resonance for you that

affiliated ball does, even if the odds of everyone you see on the field making it to the majors are sort of slim. So we wanted to, now that we know what teams are in and which teams are out, sort of cull through that analysis again. And I think that the top line result is that over 5 million people, at least as it stands now, and I will say that there are 19 teams whose futures are uncertain. So it could be that these 5 million people have access to a new pro partner league team in the coming years. It could be that they have existing summer wood bat leagues that are near at hand. They might be within driving distance of a good college program. So, you know, there's still some options here, but basically over 5 million people across the country

are set to lose access to close in-person baseball. And that's a real shame. Meanwhile, nearly 23 million people who had minor league access are now going to have to go elsewhere, whether that's to the pro partner leagues, to the major leagues, to the summer wood bat leagues. We do want to point out that over 10 million people who only had major league access are now going to gain minor league access because of the way some of these affiliations have changed. So folks in Minneapolis who were like, I can't afford to go watch the twins can now go see the St. Paul Sates, which are going to be the AAA affiliate

of the twins now. So I think that our conclusion is that there are going to be people who either don't have as much access as they had before or are going to have to pay more for that access or see it shift. And while we might end up with a more efficient system than we had before, and there are certainly some benefits to this plan, which we talked about on that episode with JJ, more than 40 million people went to a minor league game in 2019. And that's like more than half the number of people who went to a major league game. So there is an audience for minor league baseball. And I think people enjoy that it is inexpensive generally and that it can be kind of funny and it can be lighthearted and it can be a nice night at the ballpark for yourself or your family. And for many of those people, going to the park just got harder.

And that's a real shame. Yeah. I'll link to that research. And for many of those people, going to the park just got harder. And we mentioned how they've extended the quote unquote invitations to join Affiliated Ball and sort of mocked that a bit. I was just reading an article in The Athletic by Evan Drellick where he was talking about how even to see the terms of the agreement, the professional development license, this 10-year contract that the teams are going to sign if they want to be an affiliated ball, in order to review that contract, they basically have to sign an NDA, the teams, and also an indemnification of MLB.

So even if they want to see the terms, they have to agree to not talk about the terms and also basically not to sue MLB or hold mlp responsible for anything before they even see the terms of the contract the tactics that mlp is using here like they have all the leverage i guess and they just figure well they need us more than we need them and if they pass then we'll just move to the next team on our list that we did not extend a quote unquote invitation to. And so if they don't like it, then they can lump it. But imagine like, here's the 10 year contract that is going to govern your business for the next decade. You can't actually see it unless you agree not to tell anyone what's in it or speak publicly about it or sue us or anything. You have to sign away all your rights

before you even take a look at it so i think that's a big part of what has rubbed people the wrong way is just like the way mlb went about this even apart from the merits of the agreement and the new structure itself it's like just you know teams finding out on twitter that they are in or out or being in limbo for months on end it's just not the best way to implement this, I think. Yeah, they want what they want and they can get it now. So they're gonna. All right, so we are finished with follow-ups.

One more thing that we want to touch on before we bring Eddie on here. There was news this week and it's long awaited news and it's that the Cleveland baseball franchise is changing its name, not immediately, which we can talk about. But they have finally agreed to go along with the public pressure that has been building for quite some time now, decades really, going back to when Stanford changed its name, but with greater urgency of late. And, of course, the Washington football team bel belatedly begrudgingly agreed to change its name earlier this year and now Cleveland has finally agreed to go along with this and

they are not doing it immediately they are taking their time to implement this change so for at least 2021 the franchise will have the same name which is really going to be sort of a strange situation, I think, because once you agree that you have to change this name and that the current name is unacceptable, then how do you even go about your business for another year without changing the name? What do the broadcasters say? What do the PA people say? What will the programs say? But I guess we can sort of celebrate that it happened while also noting how long it took to happen and how oddly it's happening. It's like very much like the Kim Ang discussion that we had. It's like, this is great.

This is long overdue. Glad it's happening. But boy, did it take a really, really long time to happen. And boy, did they stumble at the finish line. Yeah. Right? So I think the way that we can be happy here is to applaud the activists and community members and fans who have been working for such a long time to exert pressure on the franchise to change its name, which has been so obviously bad, especially in conjunction with Wahoo for such a long time.

But yeah, I understand that while I don't care about this, I understand that brand concerns are important in this conversation, at least from Cleveland's perspective. We don't have to care about that stuff, but I understand that they do. Sure. And that they are trying to maintain the value of their franchise. And so changing the name is a big deal.

It's a thing that happens in sports, but I understand that being something you don't want to embark on really. They've had this name for more than a century. So it's a change. They should stop reminding people about that. It just makes them look worse. But I think the part of the sort of follow-up to the New York Times story that revealed this was going to happen,

there are a couple of things that I found disappointing. The first is once you have acknowledged that this name does harm to indigenous people, you have to stop using it. You need to stop using it that day. You need to stop using it in the press release announcing you're going to stop using it. You need to stop using it that day. You need to stop using it in the press release announcing you're going to stop using it. We all know what your name was. Let us remind you, you had it for over 100 years. We're not forgetting it. That's the whole problem. I think that it would have been much better for them to transition to an interim name, I think that it would have been much better for them to transition to an interim name,

much like Washington did in the NFL. And so their refusal to do that, I find kind of befuddling, you know, in a classic Cleveland ownership move, like the way they talked about some of their alternatives was also befuddling. Like Dolan had to be told, like, no, you can't just transition to tribe. That is not a meaningful change to your name. Like, it's all tainted now, friend. You have to embark on a new path. And then we learn that they are going to not only continue selling some Wahoo merch with the name on it, but they are trying to justify this by donating the proceeds of those sales to First Nations community groups.

And it's like, just stop selling it. I think our friend Craig Goldstein talked about this very eloquently on Twitter. But I understand that there are some weird copyright issues involved with this. And if they don't use the copyright or the trademark that they have that they they can't just have it and sit on it they have to use it if they're going to retain it but let that moral quandary be someone else's problem like once you have decided that you are not going to use this name because it is harmful you should not be profiting on it and you aren't going to get around how

icky it is to continue to put it out in the world in the form of merchandise by giving the proceeds away. Yeah, right. I don't totally follow the reasoning. It's like, well, if we don't protect the copyright, then other people could make this, you know, third parties could make this, which I guess if they're saying like, well, it's better that we control it because we'll only put out limited quantities or something and someone else might use it even more irresponsibly and just pump out even more merch or something. But I don't know. To me, it's like if you've decided that this is harmful and you're retiring it, continuing

to make actual logos and sell them, even if you're donating some or all of the proceeds to you know quote-unquote good causes it it just seems kind of inconsistent it's like if you're the team then you don't have to be the one to put it out there i also just think that it's the sort of thing where it's like the like squishy i don't think it's squishy but what some people might view is like the squishy argument around this, like the moral argument, which we are for some reason like very derisive toward is that, you know, like let them have to look themselves in the mirror in the morning. You don't have to, once you've decided to break with this bad tradition, you should start afresh. But I think

that there's a practical consideration here that Cleveland has perhaps not thought through in full, which is that if what you're trying to do is say, look, we've had this long tradition, we were stubborn about it, but we want our park and our club to be welcoming to all of our fans and we want it to be genuinely welcoming to them. And that probably means not only changing the name

and the iconography that we put on our uniforms, but it probably also means having some pretty strict rules in Progressive next season, if fans are allowed to attend in person, about face paint and about headdresses and about the inevitable drumbeat of, let's be real, probably white folks trying to stage some sort of strange protest

in the name of a mascot of a corporation, which we don't have time to like unpack the psychology of that, but you're going to need rules. You're going to need to have, you know, your ticket takers empowered to say, you can't wear that in our park. Just like we wouldn't let you walk into the ballpark in blackface because it creates an environment where people are offended and feel threatened and demeaned and that's not what they're here to do they're here to watch baseball and we're going to make this a place that's safe for everyone and it's really hard to make that argument when you're selling that logo in the gift shop yeah right so i think that like this is a good if extremely

belated step but there's some practicality to making it mean something for the experience of fans going to the park and watching on tv and this short circuit's a really important part of that so i hope that they think better of it when the time comes because it's really exhausting to like be excited about stuff that we shouldn't have to be excited about, and then still be disappointed by it. And, you know, I'm sure that we'll get another opportunity when Atlanta finally comes to grips with the fact that they're going to need to change their name too. Probably, yes.

But I hope that when the rubber sort of meets the road on this and we have fans back in the park, that they think about what it would feel like to be told that this era of cleveland baseball is behind you especially if you are an indigenous person who is a fan of the franchise and then walk in and still see like that terrible cartoon everywhere you know and see it sold and then told like, well, you should feel fine about this because this might get back to your community somehow. So I think I hope that they take some notes on that part.

Yeah. And, you know, I know that it's a part of their history. It's a long part of their history. But I guess my general stance when it comes to names changes is, you know, it's just a name. If you're someone who is clinging to this name and are not personally aggrieved by it, you can let it go. It's okay. It's just a baseball team. It's just a thing we call it. It's just the logo. You can still enjoy the team if there are people offended by it and there are people offended by it and hurt by it, even if you don't personally know one of those people because I don't know how many times I've seen, well, I've never heard someone say it offended them.

Or I spoke to a Native American one time, and they were okay with it or something. Clearly, there are demonstrators. There are people who are upset by this, and for them, it's a great thing to change the name for everyone else. I get that it's like your childhood warm feelings are associated with a name or a logo or something, but it's just a name or a logo. It's okay to change these things, and it's not rewriting old history. There's a difference between acknowledging that something happened or that someone existed and honoring or venerating that thing or person. And while we can't change the past or pretend things didn't happen, we don't have to be bound by those things forever. We can change what will happen next. And reading the interview in the AP with the owner of the team,

Paul Dolan, you know, when he says the name is no longer acceptable in our world, but then that it will continue to be the name and we're not going to do something just for the sake of doing it. We're going to take the time we need to do it right. Well, both of those things can't be okay. Like you can't say it's unacceptable and it has to be changed, but we're going to take our time. We're not going to do it this year. Like, there are plenty of fans of the team who are not convinced that this was necessary and who may never be convinced that this was necessary and disagree about what the intent or the significance of the name and the logo are. And we're probably not going to change their minds right now. And there's been a lot of great stuff said and written on the subject and how the name came to be and why it's important to change it.

And of course, this is all tied up in larger debates about sensitive subjects that tend to get acrimonious. But it's now no longer a debate. It's happening. The team has agreed to it. And so once you've agreed to it and you're saying the status quo is unacceptable and that it's doing some sort of harm, then if you want that to seem sincere and not just the reluctant result of public pressure or pressure from sponsors or the prospect

of selling new jerseys, then you've got to do it right away and maybe do what the Washington football team did, which was not announce a name immediately. So it's nice at least that we don't have to wonder like, will they ever do this? Like clearly they were coming to it step by step, phasing Wahoo out to a certain extent over the past couple of years. But it didn't seem as if there had been a ton of movement lately. And so I didn't sense that this was imminent until the New York Times broke the story. It's good that this happened, and yet it has not actually happened yet.

And so we're going to be stuck with this story for a little while to come. I think that one of the most sort of compelling arguments or ways to think about this that I've seen articulated is like, imagine that Major League Baseball announced today that there were going to be two expansion franchises. There are now going to be 32 teams. You would never in a million years expect that one of those teams in 2020 would be named the Indians. That would not be a name that would ever pass muster. Neither would the Braves, as an aside, right? Like we just wouldn't do that because the sensibility has shifted in such a profound way. So I think that we have to adjust. It's long past time that they adjusted, but we especially have to adjust now. And it's really a shame that Major League Base's like, oh, well, it's good that this is finally being discussed or that it's

finally happening. But boy, it sure took a lot of time to get here and a lot of kicking and screaming and various forms of suffering. But change is not often easy or painless. I would like to remind Major League Baseball that your next All-Star game is set to be in Atlanta. Your leverage has never been higher true yeah use your leverage yeah i don't know why this isn't just a phone call you make and i've never

understood they're like we have to explore our merchandising options i'm like what yeah i'm looking forward to there being a name that we can freely say on the podcast like not that that is uh the primary consideration here, but we've been making an effort for a little while, as people may have noticed not to say the name on the podcast, or I guess in writing either. And, you know,

there are other people who started doing that long before we did. And Blue Jays broadcaster, Jerry Howarth, I think stopped saying it in the early 1990s. So the sentiment has been out there for some time. But when you decide to do that, you quickly learn it's kind of tough to refer to a team when all you could say is the city name. And it gets very repetitive. And it's just kind of awkward in its construction at times. And it's very apparent that you are going to great lengths

not to say the name of the team which is fine but it just like stands out to you when you listen to it or when you read it so i don't really uh have a preference for what they finally do call the name and you know i'm not a fan of this franchise so it's not something that i feel the need to weigh in on personally or that i have any stake in but but I hope they pick something soon for the purely selfish reason on top of all the other many reasons. But it would just be nice to be able to speak without having to watch my words and try to come up with creative ways to refer to this franchise.

The squad, the team, the roster. Yes, the club. That home nine. Yeah, right. That bunch of folks yeah that they need see this is i mean uh you you need a strong personality to emerge in 2021 and i would say that it would be lindor but it seems likely that he will be playing for a different team on opening day but you know you could if he stays and they extended him that you

could call him like frankie's guys or like you know like when they were the the naps after nap blageway yeah like the frankies the lindors whatever yeah lindy's crew does he ever go by lindy probably not probably not do you ever go by lindy i have been called lindy but i wouldn't say i'd go by it i think that's a very important distinction, Ben, because sometimes people say, does anyone ever, can I call you this and that? And then I say, not if you expect me to respond to it. Yeah. I know that spiders is the hipster pick, right? And I see the appeal. It's almost good because no other sports team would be named the spiders. You would think it's so bad it's good good like spiders are not the most popular creature like a lot of people are made uncomfortable by spiders and people ascribe not positive qualities to spiders although they can be very helpful and

they eat lots of very annoying insects and we need them in the ecosystem and everything but like a lot of people when they see a spider they go oh and they want to like shoo it away or put some distance between the spider and them and so you would think it would be a strange thing to name your franchise after and i guess that's what makes it appealing plus the history although the history is not great i mean it's distant history and it's like the worst team of all time i know that there were spiders teams that were pretty decent before the terrible sell-off and the like worst team of all time spiders but do you want to name your team after a team that people think of as the worst team of all time i don't know also from what i understand people really didn't like the nickname spiders even at the time when they were called the spiders

people were actively trying out other nicknames i think they called them the spiders because a lot of their players were sort of skinny and spindly and looked like spiders which is not necessarily what you want i'm just saying be careful what you wish for i don't think it's as much of a shoo-in as some people seem to think it is but i understand why people advocate for spiders i think that there's some excellent sort of creepy sports iconography potential that we just don't get very often. But mostly I'm like you. I'm not from Cleveland. I don't root for the Cleveland baseball team. And so I would like it if the community could decide on something.

And I know that consensus is tricky to reach around this stuff. But I think that that's probably that would be such a nice way to step into the next era of Cleveland baseball. It's like we had this divisive name that was really hurtful to a lot of folks. And now we've come together and we pick something that sort of represents us as a city that we feel really good about. And that strikes me as the right way to move forward. I think Spiders would be cool. And if that's what they forward. I think spiders would be cool. And if that's what they pick, I think that would be neat.

And I will definitely buy a hat with that on it. Some of the art that folks have come up with around the Cleveland spiders is really neat. But it mostly is like, I'm not from there. So I don't feel like I get to say. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, maybe we can have someone who is from there at some point on the show to talk about that.

But right now we will talk to Eddie Robinson, who is actually the last living player to have won a World Series with Cleveland. And last time we had him on, we talked to him about that. We talked to him about being raised during the Great Depression and some of his military service during World War II and playing with and against Jackie Robinson and Satchel Paige and Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio and Yogi Berra and hiring the first sabermatrician, Craig Wright. We got into all of that and the story of how he handed Babe Ruth the bat that he is leaning on in the famous 1948 photo. So please do check out our first conversation with Eddie, but also listen to this one because it's a lot of fun we'll be right back with him we have no need to fight we raise our voices

and let our hearts take flight get higher than those planes can fly Well, it starts and now it takes up And it's just too much I cannot get you close enough A hundred arms, a hundred ears You can't always find me here And Lord, don't let me break this Let me hold it lightly Give me arms to pray with

Instead of words that hold you tight All right, well, we are joined now again by Eddie Robinson, former player and scout and executive and now podcaster. Hello, Eddie, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you very much. And happy 100th birthday. How does one celebrate a 100th birthday? Well, my kids did a drive-by for me yesterday,

and they pitched a tent on the fairway on the golf course across the street, and Betty, my wife, and I were in the tent, and about a hundred cars drove by. It was amazing. It was a beautiful day and a beautiful drive-by. I was going to ask how you and Betty have handled the pandemic. Well, we're handling it pretty good. Our kids handled it better. They did it all, and it was super. Everybody, including the people who drove by, had a good time. It was super. Everybody, including the people who drove by, had a good time. Are these times as extraordinary to you as they are to us? Because you've seen all sorts of things. You grew up during the Great Depression.

You were in World War II. You're not phased by just anything, I imagine. But this is perhaps unprecedented even in your lifetime. Well, it's all new to me. Every day is new. Tomorrow I'll be 100, and every day after that will be a new adventure. I can't say I'm not looking forward to it, and I hope it goes on for a while. Yes, so do we. Yeah, we hope you have many more to come.

We want to talk about your new podcast, which I imagine is part of how you've been filling your time during quarantine. But before we did that, we'd be remiss if we didn't take advantage of your perspective, not only on the current moment we find ourselves in, but on baseball right now. I don't know how much time you spent tracking the recent changes that Major League Baseball has proposed making to the minors, but you work both as a player and then later as an executive and a farm

director. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are on Major League Baseball's plan to contract the minors and make some of the teams that had previously been affiliated teams pro-partner leagues and some are wood bat leagues, and whether you think it is for the benefit of the minor leagues or to its detriment to make it smaller. Well, I don't like what's happening to baseball today. And I'm happy that I lived and played through the golden age of baseball. And I think the golden age probably started around the time I did in 1939. That was the year the Hall of Fame was established, 1939. And I think it went on even with the free agency.

I think it remained about the same up until Conseco hit the market. I think he came on in 1985 with Oakland. And I think the drugs were the first big change. They changed the records, the averages. Home run records flew out the window. And that was a change of baseball. That was a change of baseball. Then the big change came with the saver-matricians entering the game,

and now most of the ball clubs are run by people who never played the game, never worked in it really, but attended college, got very adept at using statistics. And I'm not saying statistics aren't good. I think that there's room for statistics in the game. But I think he can take it too far. And I don't think we'll ever see baseball the way it was again. But it's surviving today, and home runs are in abundance.

And I see everybody's hitting 450-foot home runs, and that, of course, didn't happen in my day. Our Mickey Mantle hit them a long way before him. But I just viewed baseball differently. I'm a fan. I watch the game. My wife and I watch the Rangers play every night. I love to kind of value the players in my own mind the way I would if I was involved in the game.

So I wish it well, but it's not the same as it was. So you mentioned the golden age of baseball, and that is the title of your podcast, The Golden Age of Baseball with Eddie Robinson. And we've recommended it before, and I will link to it again so that everyone knows where to find it. And I've listened to every episode so far, and I'm enjoying it. So how did this come about?

What led you to decide to start doing this? Well, it came about with me not having much to do and i have a good friend uh greg ricks who helps me with the podcast you've heard him he does the introduction and he's been a friend for a long time he belonged to the country club that I belong to. And his wife has come down with Alzheimer's. And he's having a pretty tough go of it. With the virus the way it is, and he's in the theater business, and he's really in bad shape financially. And I had hoped, and I still do hope, that sometime in the future, I'll be able to appeal to my listeners and have them donate to the Alzheimer's Foundation.

I intend to start a foundation by getting a 501c3 corporation that you can donate and it's tax-free. You can take it off your taxes. And in that way, I hope I can help him. That's doing things for Alzheimer's patients was my main thrust. And how have you found the show to be and the reception to it? I know when I spoke to you last week, you mentioned that you had just lost a couple of hours of audio that you recorded and I commiserated. I found them. Oh, you found them. Oh, great. Okay. That's great. Because I was going to say- Oh boy, what a joy to find them.

When you do a podcast, you just get used to technical difficulties and inevitably you lose something at some point so that's right yeah that was uh you do that's when you knew what i did i had done all 1947 and all of 1948 and they were important years in my career and uh to lose that i had to do it all over again was going to be a problem but we my son found it for me oh that's great and it just was wonderful you know i'm new to i didn't even know there was such a thing as podcast until they brought it to my attention yes and then my my thought was well maybe we can turn this into something positive that uh there are a lot of fans out there. I know from receiving the fan mail that I receive,

there are fans that are interested in how it was in the olden days. And I do reach back to the olden days, having started my career in 1939. So I've seen and done a lot, and I've known a lot of people, the Mickey Mantles and Whitey Fords and Duke Snyders of baseball. I know them personally, and I have stories to tell about the Yogi Berra. And I enjoy it. It gives me something to do, looking back and talking about my old friends. I enjoy it.

It's like I enjoy talking to you. Yeah, and the last time we got a chance to talk to you, I think we were both struck by what a great and engaging storyteller you are. And I imagine that in addition to all of the really great players that you knew through the course of your career, that there were some great storytellers among them, some of whom are probably not with us anymore. And as I listened to some of your episodes, I was curious if you could go back in time

and sort of interview any of those folks and bring them on the podcast. Are there any who stand out to you as particularly great storytellers? Well, Bobby Brown is the only guy living. He's four years behind me in the timers list of baseball old-timers. And he lives here in Fort Worth and he's a great storyteller but he's not inclined to do it. I've tried to get him Paul Rogers who co-authored my book with me Lucky Me. The three of us go out to dinner with our wives about once a month. And Paul and I have been trying to get Bobby to do a book.

He and I would do it together, but he's reluctant to do it and just doesn't seem to want to. So you can't get blood out of a turnip. He doesn't want to give. Well, I'm glad that you're preserving all of these stories. And I'm curious because it seems like you have been very open-minded and adaptable throughout your career when it comes to trying new things. And now, you know, at 99 years old, starting a podcast, it seems like you're very open to new things and new ideas and activities. You know, a podcast is interesting because I am unique in that I go back that far.

And unless I tell it, I don't know who's going to tell it. I don't know if there are any other players living that played with Whitey Ford. I guess there are. But Mickey Mantle, Hank Greenberg, Joe Gordon, Lou Boudreau. And I'm happy to share my experiences with those guys. Warren Spahn and Johnny Sane and just so many of them. And Joe DiMaggio.

And I'm happy to do it. And I like doing it, so why not do it? And last time we talked to you we asked you about jackie robinson but this time i wanted to ask you about larry doby who i imagine you just talked about in your 1947 episode yeah i talk a lot about larry doby because i i don't think he's received anywhere near the credit right that he should receive he was the first black in the American League. He went through the same indignities that Robinson did. I don't want to take anything away from Jackie.

I played against Jackie in 1946 when he was in Montreal, and I was in Baltimore in the International League. And I had occasion to watch him and play against him all that year, and I admired him. I thought he was a very good player and a good guy, and he proved to be just that. He was very deserving, but Larry Dovey, very, very deserving. Yeah, what was it like when he came up in 47?

Well, he was accepted. It was the same thing. He had to sleep in different hotels. He couldn't eat in the restaurants. And he did all the things that Jackie did. Larry was a very nice guy, good teammate, and a damn good hitter. And with power. He was a power hitter. damn good hitter. And with power, he was a power hitter. One thing that I was struck by as I was reading through some of the coverage of your birthday, and I wonder if this might be a topic of a future podcast episode, was a really lovely answer that you gave to MLB.com's Michael Clare about the role that your wife played in your career and the support that she gave you. And I wondered if you could talk just a little bit about what life is like for the wife of a major leaguer and a farm director and a baseball executive because I imagine that she has a fair number of stories that she could tell on the podcast too she's sitting right here listening to her interview she's welcome to come on too she's been uh you want to talk to her sure she put her on yeah i'll put her on here

this is betty b-e-t-t-e and she's a big part of our family and uh we have three boys of course and and she spent a lot of time alone and raising boys when I was the farm director and player. And she got in the end of my playing career. We got married kind of late, but we went on around the royal honeymoon. And here she is. Hi, Betty. Hello. Thank you for jumping on spontaneously.

I was just asking what life was like for you through this long baseball career that Eddie had, because I think that the perspectives of wives and partners often get lost because they're behind the scenes, but they play a really pivotal role in many a major leaguer's career. We try to keep the home fires burning, but it was great. I mean, it was a totally different life than I'd ever known before. I married Eddie when my first year out of college, I guess. And I wasn't a baseball fan and didn't come from a baseball family, but I was converted very easily. How did you two meet? Oh, hi. Well, today, people would not believe it, but we met on a train between, I had been born in Pittsburgh, but I lived in New York, and I went back during the spring break. Well, it was actually a winter break we had at Hunter. And I went back to visit an old friend. And I was on this train going back to New York.

School was going to start again pretty soon. And it was my senior year. And I felt like I was pretty much a big shot. And Eddie was on there already. No, he got on in Cumberland, Maryland. He had made a talk in Cumberland, Maryland, and he happened to be in my car. I didn't notice him,

but I was riding with another young lady who was going to Washington DC and she was getting married in DC and I thought how boring I just thought that was something I didn't want to do but she was all excited. But yet she kept telling me, you should see this guy sitting up in the front of this car. He's going to come down the aisle and I'll punch you. And she did. She poked me in the ribs and said, here he comes. You've got to look at him.

Well, you know, I looked, but he wasn't really my type. He was a big, big guy. And guy and i said well that's nice you know and she said well you ought to get to know him i mean here she is trying to match me up with this man in the train well we came to washington dc and my friend got off and I wished her well. And in fact, the train emptied out. The only two left in the car were Eddie and me. Oh, that's great. So you had to talk. And so he was walking down the aisle again.

He was in the front, and I was about midway. And he stopped and he said, well, looks like we're the last two. Why don't we go up to the club car and have a drink? So I said, sure, why not? He's getting off. He was getting off in Baltimore, which was about 40 minutes, was that about 40 minutes from Washington? Yeah. And so we So we did, and he had just been on a tour with the all-star team to Japan, and I loved travel and loved reading and learning about other cultures. So he told me all about it. I was just enthralled because he was so nice and know, nice kind of easygoing personality that I liked. And he said, he asked me where I lived.

I told him. He said, well, I'm coming to New York. I've just been traded to New York. Well, I didn't know what trading meant. Anyway, so I said, well, that's very nice. And he said, well, when I come to New York, maybe I'll give you a call. So that was how it all began. Then he went to spring training, and he came back to New York, and he called me, and so the story goes on. And so Eddie spent 65 years in baseball, and his book is called Lucky Me, My 65 Years in Baseball.

But you two have had 65 years of marriage, right? You had your 65th anniversary this year, I think. Exactly. You're up on everything. What's the secret, I guess, to not getting sick of each other for that long? Oh, that would never happen. Not here. Oh, that would never happen. Not here.

Because basically, we came from different worlds, totally. But basically, down deep, we're a lot alike. And we're both peacekeepers, and we both like talking to each other. I like him as a person. He's a really, really nice person. And he thinks I am too. That helped. And, has a spiritual nature, which I appreciate. Even after 50 years, he became a Catholic like me. It only took me 50 years to convert. You won out in the end, though.

So we're real happy. We have three wonderful men. I call them our boys, but they're just wonderful guys. Just proud of all three of them. And we have a happy life. We have a happy family. It's expanded somewhat, and we like that, too. Well, we're glad that you two found each other and that we found you.

Thank you so much for talking to me. Yeah, our pleasure. Thanks for hopping on. We appreciate it. Okay. You want to get Eddie back? Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Eddie's in perfect health. It just takes him a little longer to get up.

Just a minute. Okay. Hello. Hi, Eddie. Well, that was a pleasure. Thank you. She's a pretty good interview. Yeah, I'd say so. So I wanted to ask, you know, because a lot of players will be coming back in the coming year after taking a year off, essentially, you know, minor leaguers whose whole season was canceled or players who opted out because of the pandemic. So there will be a lot of players coming back from a long layoff. And of course, you and a lot of your contemporaries did that, too, because you served in the Navy. And of course, you played ball during the war, but you came right back in 1946 and picked up right where

you left off and hit right away. But I wonder what that was like for you and for everyone else that was coming back from the service just to get right back into the swing of things, literally, so to speak. Well, you really didn't know what it was going to be like, but you came back, and it just— you know when you're young, you can make a lot—you can adapt. And I adapted to it and got my timing back. Hitting, getting your timing is big.

And I was lucky. And I had a hell of a year in 1946, my year back. And I was very disappointed when I went to Cleveland the next year and didn't do well. I thought I should do better. Jackie Robinson did well with Brooklyn and Bobby Brown did very well with the Yankees and I floundered and I was disappointed. But I finally caught up. I didn't catch up until I got with Washington in 1949. Were there any of your contemporaries who you saw struggle when they were returning from

the service trying to get back into the swing of things? Everybody was very helpful and understanding. There were a lot of, you know, when you're in the military, a lot of the guys, in fact, most of them weren't like me. I got to play a little baseball. I missed one full year in 1945, but a lot of guys missed three years, and some of them four years. Bob Feller went in early. He was the first one to enlist, and they had a little problem coming back. A lot of them, the unfortunate ones were the ones who, they were like 31 years old when they enlisted, when they went into service. And when they came out, they were 35, 34, and near the end of their career. And that was really tough on those guys.

I was lucky I was in the beginning of my Major League career. I was lucky I was in the beginning of my Major League career. And you talked a little bit about playing ball in the Navy during the war on your podcast and some of the other work that you did. And I was kind of curious because you mentioned that you worked on anti-submarine warfare. I did. I recently read a book about that, and it's fascinating. So I wonder what you did and how you were able to help. um yeah i went to training for it and we could simulate a submarine being there and we had a well it was uh protruded from the bottom of a

destroyer or a destroyer escort or i don't know if battleships have or, and it was a microphone which sent out waves, microwaves, and you went 360 degrees. And if it hit anything, it would bounce back. The waves would bounce back. It's a bit intricate, but... Was it like the sonar or the astic? It was sonar. And if it hit something and bounced back, then you would go back and forth across that something and see how long it was. And if it was a submarine, a ship, you could pretty much identify it as being a ship.

And you could see which way it was headed. I taught, it was very intricate. And I taught lieutenants and lieutenant commanders and guys that were ahead of the sonar equipment on board ship. So we were valuable. We did valuable work in that area. But that wasn't what we were really in there for. We were really in there to set up recreational programs for the troops.

Once they began to take the islands back, they needed some recreation. And that's what our guys did. Yeah, and not that it wasn't hard work, but you must have felt pretty fortunate to be a ballplayer because you mentioned on your podcast that if you didn't play well, you could get cut from the team and you might end up in combat. Our manager, Gary Bodie, the captain, depended on him to have a good team. And if you didn't play up enough, he'd send you to sea and get somebody to replace you. It was funny. He came in one day and he said,

I just got word that there were five vacancies at Acostia Air Force Bernabeu Base in Washington, D.C. Well, that would be a premium place to go to be stationed. He said, I just wondered if any of you guys would like to go there and leave here and go to Anacostia. Two or three of the guys held their hands up, and the next week they went to sea. And he said, I just, Bodie said, I just wanted to find out who was happy here. There weren't any vacancies at Anacostia.

And the sailors enjoyed it. We played, we had sellout crowds most every game we played. I hope that you won't find this to be a sort of impertinent question, but your birthday is coming up tomorrow. And I noticed in all of this coverage, I mean, 100 years old is a milestone birthday, obviously, and your life has been so rich and has given you all this great perspective. But I kind of wondered what it was like to constantly be asked about your age, because I have to imagine that it's a little bit of an odd thing to have that be such a focal point. It hasn't.

Oh, really? It hasn't been a focal point. Okay. Well, that's good. People know you're old, and they don't know how old, and when you tell them, they're surprised. And people don't think that, I guess I don't really look like I'm 100 years old, but I enjoy talking with people like you. I enjoy making speeches, and I go here and there. It hasn't been a problem with me, and I'm 100 and proud of it.

But some people may not like it, but what you give is what you've gotten. That's what I do. Fair enough. Well, before we let you go, I just wanted to ask you about a couple of former players who unfortunately passed away this year. This has been a very difficult year when it comes to losing legendary baseball players. And Charlie Pryde just died. That's well, I was going to ask you about him because I'm sure you have a connection to him because he was so closely associated with the Rangers and you were the GM there for a while. So did you get to know him at all? I did. I did. But I knew of Charlie Pride when I was in Atlanta.

He was a good ball player too. My assistant named Bill Lucas was black and Bill Lucas was Hank Aaron's brother-in-law. and Bill Lucas was Hank Aaron's brother-in-law. And in the minor leagues, Bill Lucas and Charlie Pride had played on the same minor league team together. And when Charlie became famous as a singer, Bill Lucas was very proud of him, and Lucas used to tell me about Charlie. And Charlie came to Atlanta to put a show on,

and Bill and I went down to see him and he was happy. He was a nice guy. And then when I came with the Rangers, he used to come to spring training with the Rangers every year. Right. And he would put on a uniform and we'd let him get in the batting cage and the batting practice pitcher would throw to him. He fell the ball down his toe one day.

That really hurts. And I don't think Charlie wanted to hit anymore after that. But Charlie was a really nice guy and a good singer. I liked the way he sang. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you also about Joe Morgan, because as great as Morgan was, he might not have had a career if not for you. Because as I read recently in our mutual friend Craig Wright's newsletter, which I often recommend, it's called Pages from Baseball's Past. You can find it at baseballspast.com. And Eddie, I know you subscribe also. You were the assistant GM for the Houston Colt 45s back in their expansion year.

And I think only the expansion teams that year were actually interested in Joe because he was a little guy, didn't really fit the profile. And you had hired a scout, Bill White, W-I-G-H-T, the former pitcher, and I think he was the only person who gave an offer to Joe Morgan. And so... That's, yeah, that's exactly right. So what did you think of Morgan when you first saw him, and were you surprised at what he turned out to be? Well, he's one of the first guys that Bill White signed. Yeah. And he sent him into camp and he was little, you know, Morgan wasn't a very big guy. Right. And he had very fast hands. He was too quick. On a double play ball, he had a tendency to fumble the ball

and getting it out of his glove to throw to the second baseman. He'd try to do it too quick. And Paul Richards, our manager, had him field a hundred ground balls a day and had a shortstop there to cover second. And Morgan caught a hundred ground balls a day and had a shortstop there to cover second. Morgan caught 100 ground balls a day and threw him to second base. That's how

he overcame it. That helped make him a good second baseman. He turned out to be a hell of a good hitter. We didn't know. I don't think White thought he was going to be that good a hitter. He was just a fine player. I'm glad we had something to do with his development. I was sorry Houston traded him.

Yes, yeah, he went on to be even better with Cincinnati. Oh, yeah, he was. And Joe and I were friends for a long time, for years. And speaking of fine hitters, I know that you were kind of close to Dick Allen as well. And Craig told me that you tried to convince him to come out of retirement that you were kind of close to Dick Allen as well. And Craig told me that you tried to convince him to come out of retirement when you were with Atlanta, and then you got him to be a coach for a while with Texas. And I guess that didn't last long. I don't know why he told

you that he didn't stick around, but what did you think of Allen as a player and a person? Well, I didn't know anything about Dick Allen until he came with the White Sox. And then I became aware of what a good hitter he was. Strong, powerful. And Roland Heeman loved Dick Allen. Absolutely loved him. But he had to get rid of him. He had to get rid of Allen, and I was in Atlanta.

And we worked a deal. He said, Eddie, I've got to get rid of this guy, and I've got to make some kind of deal for him. And so we arranged a deal. He would assign Dick Allen to my club, and there were all sorts of ideas that Dick wasn't going to play anymore. He didn't want to play. And so I said, okay.

I said, you send Allen to me, and I'll try to get him to play with the Braves. And if he won't, well, I don't know why. He'd just retire. So he did. He assigned Allen to me, and I agreed to give a pitcher. Ron Reed was a big right-hand pitcher that we had. He had promised to be a good big league pitcher. He was young.

And I would give him some kind of player equivalent to Ron Reed. And Allen became my player. Well, he didn't want to play in Atlanta, and Philadelphia wanted him in the worst way. And I went up to Allen's farm. He had

a farm outside of Philadelphia that he was quite, it was a horse farm. He was quite proud of it. He and I had a visit quite, it was a horse farm. He was quite proud of it. He and I had a visit and it was colder than hell. We had a nice visit and he agreed for me to trade him to Philadelphia. I wasn't

going to take him on the Braves roster. I was going to take him on the Braves roster and then trade him to Philadelphia, which I did. And I don't know. I think he played for Philadelphia that year. I'm not sure.

But anyway, that was the progress. That's a progression that we went through with me, with Dick Allen. And then I got, when I was with the Rangers here, Pat Corrales wanted Dick as his hitting coach. And we tried to arrange that, but we were never able to do it. And you mentioned Bill Lucas, and unfortunately he died pretty young, so people may not remember, but I believe he was the first black general manager in Major League Baseball.

Absolutely. He was absolutely the first black general manager in Major League Baseball. Absolutely. He was absolutely the first black general manager. And he was your successor, right? You recommended him to replace you. I did. But Bill Lucas, as I said, he was Hank Aaron's brother-in-law. Of course, that didn't mean anything to me. Hank was a good guy, and it didn't matter who his brother-in-law was, but his brother-in-law happened to be my assistant.

That let Hank and I get closer together. I was quite friendly with Hank Aaron. You've been connected to almost everyone, it seems like. I know that you gave Pat Gillick his first job in baseball, too, right? I did that. I'm proud of that. i gave tom grave his first job yeah and craig wright the first sabermetrician so very great yeah that's right i did all they're all good things i'm proud of yeah and i guess the last player who passed away this year i wanted to ask you about was whitey ford who you mentioned and not only were you a teammate of his but you

also faced him as a hitter more than 100 times, and you actually hit pretty well off him. So what was he like as a pitcher and then as a person? Well, as a person, he was a very good teammate, and he was a big-game pitcher. If you had a game you needed to win, of course, Isaac Reynolds was a big-game pitcher. Pitch one of those guys, and you had a damn good chance to win if Of course, Isaac Reynolds was a big game pitcher. Pitch one of those guys and you had a damn

good chance to win if you scored any runs. And Whitey was just a really nice guy. He was tough to hit at. He had a good curve. I kind of rate Whitey and

Bobby Shantz about the same. If Bobby had been with the Yankees, he would have been a great pitcher. Everybody would be talking about him. He might have been a little bit better than Whitey Ford was. Yeah, you didn't hit nearly as well off of Bobby Shantz. He was tough, I guess. Speaking of...

Oh, he was tough. That's another player from your era who's still around. I don't know how his health is, but Bobby Shantz is alive. Yeah, Bobby's around. I hear from him once in a while. And, yeah, I think he's okay health-wise. He's a guy I can reach back for you with a podcast. Yeah, I'm sure he has a lot of stories, yeah.

back for you with a podcast yeah i'm sure he has a lot of stories yeah uh and you know we were able to talk to ned garver on our podcast before he passed away and we had a great conversation with him and and you faced him even more than you faced weddie ford so what was he like yeah i did i faced ned and i thought he's a good pitcher i didn't think he was that tough to hit. But Ford and Shantz were tougher to hit than Garver was. For me, you know, for different guys hitting different pitchers, I hit Bob Lemon, who was a great pitcher, along with those guys. And Bob's in the Hall of Fame. And I hit him. I really hit him good. I think's in the Hall of Fame. And I hit him.

I really hit him good. I think I hit about 300 of them. And he said one day, we were good friends. We played on the Indians together, and we played in the minor leagues together. And he said, the only reason you hit me is because you know I won't knock you down we you know when i played you you got knocked down if if you were hitting a guy pretty good he would knock you down and see if you could take it yeah and oftentimes hit you but that was just the way it was played in those days and now you knock somebody down the umpire's out there warning you. If they do it again, they'll take you out of the game.

It's just a different game. Yeah, right. And I don't know if this is true. You must have a million great scouting stories. But I think I read somewhere that you were actually in Cuba scouting for the Orioles when Castro took over finally. Is that true? I was. I was there.

I was in Cuba at the National Hotel. I was at the National Hotel, and all these guys came in in sharp uniforms and boots, and they looked good, and the people were damn happy to have them. But it didn't take them long to sour on Castro. But at the time he took over, the people were pleased. But I was there at that time. You're right. It's a good thing that you started your own podcast

or you'd just be in constant demand as a guest on everyone else's. Yeah. Well, you know, I enjoy it. It's fun. Share what you know. That's the way I believe.

People want to know these things about those older players. How are they going to find it out? Listen, guys like me, tell them. I'm glad that you are telling them and telling us. I will remind everyone where to find our previous conversation

with Eddie because there were some other great stories we got into there. Then, of course, I will tell people where to find our previous conversation with Eddie because there were some other great stories we got into there. And then, of course, I will tell people where to find the golden age of baseball with Eddie Robinson, because this was really just a taste. And you couldn't possibly get into all of the things that Eddie has talked about and will talk about on that show because he has 100 years of history to get to. So it takes a lot of ground to cover there. And it really is striking, I think, just how clearly you remember just the smallest details, which I feel like I could not remember about things that happened last week. And, you know, you'll remember a teammate. Well, I am pretty lucky.

And I do remember it. And I do remember it. And as I said earlier in this show, I just finished doing 1947 and 1948. And I'm going to do my career, but I'm going to inject those extra innings in there that I tell stories. And I even got a murder story to tell. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, that's a good teaser. We won't ask you to spoil it here. I hope you hear the murder story. Yes, we will. And I hope you get into your years as a scout and executive and all the things you did after you played because those are really fascinating, too. I don't know.

Do you think people will be interested in that? I think so, yeah. I think so, yeah. People like hearing about trades that were made or not made and signing players and drafting them people are interested well i think richie allen i'm glad you asked about him i think he's an interesting guy yeah and one hell of a hitter he was really a different kind of guy and i got to know him pretty well and liked him a lot and he was just a pure hitter yeah and roland heman roland heman loved him the way i did roland's around isn't he do you ever talk to roland he is and no we have not had him

on but we absolutely should yeah i think you ought to have roland heman on he's and pat gillick hell yes have you had pat gillick on no we haven't done that either. Well, you better get busy. Okay. You're giving us some good ideas here. All right. Wait a minute. Betty's got something else to say. Okay.

Yes, please. Hold on. Sure. Two things. Okay. Number one, it's really nice to be married to somebody who loves what they do. Yes. I mean, always loves it.

You get down days like you go for something like that, and then you know. That's the other plus. You watch your husband work. Do you ever think about that? Yeah. Suppose your husband's a lawyer or accountant or something. You don't know what their day is like,

but you do know in baseball. Yes. And I love baseball because it's a team game and it's a single game. It's both. And you have to have a team spirit and unity, but you have to perform as an individual. And you can't cut corners. True. You know, you can't cheat.

You can't slip anything by anybody well you can cheat sometimes and loves to do it yes anyway that's what i wanted to say that's all thank you good talking to you thank you okay all right that's an observation i hadn't heard before watch me work but she did yeah she's still surprising you, I guess. She came to, when we were going together, she was going to this classy college in New York, Hunter College,

and she didn't know anything about baseball. But I did, we did meet on the train, and I told her when I get to New York, I'd give her a call, maybe we could have dinner. And we did. But when we were going together, she came down to Philadelphia

to see us play a series in Philadelphia. And after the first game, I met her after the game, and she said, I really had a hard time finding you today. And I said, why? She said, you didn't have a white uniform. She kept looking for me with a white uniform on. Of course, we had gray on. I think she finally asked somebody.

And I said, oh, he's got the gray uniform. It's funny that Betty mentioned cheating in baseball because I actually called you a while back when the news came out about the Astros because you had written in your book about sign stealing with Cleveland in 1948. So there is some tradition about that. That does go back a bit. So you've seen that firsthand as well. I've seen a lot. I'm glad to share it with you. And I thank you for calling me.

All right. Well, great talking to you, Eddie. Thank you to you and also to Betty. Yeah. And happy early birthday. Yes. Thank you very much. All right.

Have a great day. Bye. All right. That will do it for today. Thanks, as always, for listening. And thanks to Eddie and Betty for coming on. You can contact Eddie yourself by emailing him at eddie.robinson65 at yahoo.com. That's the contact email for his podcast.

And if you send him questions and comments there, he may answer them on the show. I believe he is also receptive to autograph requests. You can contact us via email at podcast.fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. Speaking of which, you should consider becoming a supporter, which you can do by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some small monthly amount to help keep the podcast going and get themselves access to some perks. Maxwell Rowe, Ben Axelman, KDB, Brian Hare, and Graham Stewart. Thanks to all of you.

You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify

and other podcast platforms. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance, and we will be back with another show a little later this week. Talk to you then. And here's to you,

Mrs. Robinson. Jesus loves you more than you will know. Whoa, whoa, whoa. God bless you, please, Mrs. Robinson. Heaven holds a place for those who pray. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, hey, hey.