Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1716: Hey Mickey

Episode Date: July 6, 2021

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about their long weekends, birthday boy (and two-way All-Star) Shohei Ohtani, MLB’s perplexing timing when it comes to announcing awards and All-Star honors and scheduling special events such as the Futures Game and the amateur draft, the Yankees’ continuing troubles, pitchers who’ve struggled since the sticky stuff crackdown began, […]

🎵 Oh, the weather's dreary here down in the low Hello and welcome to episode 1716 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Raleigh of Fangraphs. Meg, how was your long weekend? It was good. It was marked by rain, Ben. Yes, yes, where I was as well. I think my transition to arizona is complete because i have looked down i said oh we need it and i mean we really do that is a statement of fact but the delight i took uh was was pronounced after having lived much of my life in places that rain a great deal yeah i guess growing up in se, you don't really say we need it when it rains.

No. You're like, please stop. What ancient or new gods have I angered with this to make it continue? But instead, well, on Friday, I was like, it's humid here. I feel like I should be able to sue someone about that. But then there was actual rain and it was very welcome. It cut the temp, woke up on the actual 4th of July and it was 80 degrees. Went for a bike ride. Was in the world without fear of turning to smoke and ash.

So in that respect, quite nice. Also, the good thing about rain the day before the 4th of July is that it discourages people from doing fireworks late into the evening because it's rainy. And so they are flummoxed by the moisture. That was also a welcome reprieve that I did not anticipate. Yes, I will cop to having set off some fireworks when I was, but I'm in the wilderness enough that I don't think it would have bothered anyone.

So I kind of had a quintessential holiday weekend, Fourth of July weekend, got out of the city, went upstate. It was nice and cool. Rained a bit where I was as well, but didn't rain all the time. And so I was able to get outdoors a little and swim a little and split some wood. I had a real woodsman weekend and watched Shohei Otani hit a few home runs and then set off a few fireworks of my own. So it was fun. Yeah. You know, after your last experience, I was just sitting there hoping that Shohei would have a nice little run.

And he did. I don't think the baseballs involved were happy about it. I've started thinking about that email question we got about sentient baseballs every time Otani like destroys one. And, you know, I don't know that it would satisfy them or make them happy to go out the way they did. But gosh, is it pleasing to me. Yeah, even when he misses one, like sometimes he'll swing so hard

that I wish there was like a stat cast estimate of if he had made contact. That's like the next step we need stat cast estimate of if he had made contact that's like the next step we need the the estimated distance if contact had been made because sometimes like just watching him this weekend he will take some titanic hacks and yeah they still look controlled he's not like fallen down but he really does not get cheated and yet he doesn't have a high leg kick or anything he doesn't even really take a stride it's like all strength and hip torque i guess and so you're almost surprised to see it go as far as it goes but it goes really far at least when the orioles weren't cowards who were

walking him intentionally although it's hard to blame them because he's like almost at like bond's level of intimidating right now and And he seems to only hit home runs, like either bunt singles or home runs, basically. And it just looks almost effortless. I know it's not, but it looks that way. The combination of drag, bunt, and home run, I think we are often asked, we've been asked several times in the past,

what is sort of your preferred aesthetic around baseball? And I think that Otani is it. I think that he combines things that I find to be really just satisfying, like that loud thumping, it sounds different off the bat kind of home run is a visceral experience and a deeply pleasing one but watching a guy especially like a big dude who i i continue to say his base running is the thing we should talk about more right when guys his size this is true of gallo too like when guys that size are so agile and move so well it's like it's delightful and still a bit surprising even if you've seen it a couple of times before. And so to have him just do that lovely little drag bunt, it's just the best, Ben. It's the best. Yeah, I know some percentage of our audience is sick of hearing me talk about Shoya Otani, but at least this time he's the player everyone in the world is talking about.

So it's not like when Jeff Sullivan and I let off every episode for a year or so by talking about Williams-Estadillo, and not everyone was talking about William S. DiDio. He was internet famous, but not a household name. But Otani is at that level, and so perhaps we can be excused for dwelling on him to the extent that we do when everyone else also is. Especially on his birthday. We're speaking on July 5th, and Otani turns 27 today. Happy birthday, Shohei. So we had to pay tribute to the birthday boy briefly.

But yes, I think that's right. I was talking about the homers, but really the base running this weekend was just as impressive, if not more impressive. I guess it was the Saturday game, July 2nd, where he hit the two home runs. So he had that part down, but he also got on via a walk at the end of the game in the ninth and he stole second and then had to come back. I forget what it was. I think Anthony Rendon maybe made contact with the catcher or something. And so the steal didn't count and Otani had to go back to first and everyone knew that he was going to try to steal again and they still couldn't stop him and he stole second anyway and then Jared Walsh hit a bullet to right field and the outfielder was playing in in anticipation of the single because it was a tie game and if Otani scored the game was over so he was playing in and Walsh crushed that ball and I thought oh he's not going to score even with Otani's speed he's just not going to be able to score and he

did he just he was an absolute dynamo on the bases and he came in and he had that slide and he sort of hit the catcher and flipped over and I had a moment of terror when he seemed to hit his hand and hit his head and was bounced around a bit but then he had

that great moment where he was just lying on his back behind home plate with his arms outstretched having just scored the walk-off run so that was at least as exciting as the home runs and then the hug he had with walsh after that i must have watched 20 times because like in slow motion it was like absolute joy on his face and his hair was bouncing and waving and it was wonderful well and a couple of all-stars hugging it out ben a couple of all-stars so tony had a big weekend he he was voted into the all-star game as we all know as a dh but then himself is a couple of all-stars right recognized by the players as a as a pitcher as well so i think this

is the first time in mlb history that a player has been named as an all-star as both a position player and a pitcher. So breaking all sorts of barriers, Otani. And I would also say to the folks who are like, Ben, you could cool it with the Otani talk. You can listen to Ben talk about Otani, or you can listen to me drudge up weird Mike Zanino fandom as he has become an all-star for the first time so you pick your poison you let us know i mean i can do 20 minutes

on mike zanino but it's it's really just me talking about framing and again titanic home runs so you know yeah pick your poison he's fun in his own way so yeah and the players selected otani i guess there were what five pitchers per league selected by the players or starting pitchers at least I think that's right And Otani was one of those on the AL side And I guess you could say I haven't actually looked It's almost too soon to start saying who was snubbed because there's so many players who don't end up going And then you get many other players deep who eventually do get selected

I don't know whether Otani was one of the five most deserving starting pitchers in the American League. He is certainly the most famous, and I get the sense that the players are just excited to play with him. I saw something, I forget who it was, but some player was like, oh, I get to be on Otani's team for a day. This is super exciting. So maybe they were just taking no chances. We want Otani to be for a day like this is super exciting so maybe they were just taking no chances like we want Otani to be here and in this game and we want him to play both ways and hopefully that will happen it certainly seems like it will because he's making his last start before the all-star break on Tuesday against Boston and then he'll have plenty of days of rest to get ready for the

all-star game in the home run derby and all the rest. So that'll be a lot of fun. And actually, as I look, Joe Madden confirmed that that was the case, that he has spoken to Kevin Cash, Rays manager and AL All-Star team manager, who has said that he will use Otani two ways in that game. So they're figuring out for what innings and how long, but we will see that soon. So I know that you had a little quibble with the scheduling of some of the events that week, right? It's weird. It's like the All-Star game, you have this long lead up of the voting and it's everywhere.

And then the actual starters get announced. I think it was like Thursday at 9.30 p.m. Eastern, they announced the All-Star starters. There's like all the games were going on, which I guess is not the worst thing because then like you get to talk about it on the broadcast, but you could talk about it on the broadcast even if you announced it at some other time. So it's weird. It's like they schedule this stuff sometimes at the absolute worst time. It's like when they announced the gold gloves on election night last year i think like no one cares about the gold gloves right now so i know greg calcaterra said like maybe all mlb cares about is that you go to the all-star voting website and you click and click and click so that they get the ad revenue or the sponsorship

revenue from that but you'd still think they would want it to get kind of its own time and a little bit of the spotlight and it was like undercover of darkness while the games were going on they announced the all-star starters not there's a ton of suspense about the starters because they give you the updates about the voting status of everyone but beyond that you rightly pointed out i think that the futures game and the draft being on the same day and on a day when there's like a full slate of MLB games, right? On Sunday. So all of that stuff is at the same time. Why? Yes. So I think it is useful for us to remember like what are real problems and what are media problems? And sometimes media

problems and real problems are the same problem. But I do think it is useful for media members to not mistake their own inconvenience for like issues of actual import. So like I'm coming in saying that, but I will also say the following, that it makes very little sense to me to have two of your biggest prospect related events occur on the same day. Now granted, not at the same time, but on the same day, back to back in the calendar. It makes especially little sense when you have a perfectly good Saturday. You just have a whole Saturday sitting there waiting for you to plug in a futures game and let everyone watch and get excited about the next wave of young talent coming up. And the thing about it is there will be plenty of people who go

from the sort of prospect media side and see the futures game, but the coverage is going to get eaten up by the draft, which is a higher profile event. And so I just, I find it curious. It felt to me like someone needed to be in the room and say, Hey, does that make sense? I want to do it like that. And not just because just because you know the same 50 people are involved in the coverage of both of those events but also because you want like baseball fans to sort of get excited about it and have there be some build-up and you know get everybody amped to watch the futures game i checked the schedule and my understanding is that there is nothing happening at cores that saturday they have a 5k I don't I mean look no one's it's not like it's broadcast do the futures game on

Saturday do the doofy celebrity all-star softball game on Sunday and then do the draft in the evening also why are you having day two of the draft the same night as the Derby? That seems wrong. And I know that the move around the draft's timing was a COVID thing. And so in theory, this will not be quite the setup we have next year. In theory, we will be returning to the June draft date, right? And then you can have the Futures game on Sunday and there's no conflict. And then, you know, you won't be going draft right into trade deadline coverage. I just that's a media problem all in that one.

But like the rest of it is silly. I think that you want to space these events out so that people can engage with them and and you can really try to build excitement about it and have stories get written about it. And it's just mushing them together doesn't seem to make a good deal of sense to me. And so I wish that they had done it differently. And not just because I am 35 and anticipating being tired is almost worse than being tired. And isn't the day after the All-Star Game just empty?

Empty. Wednesday, I mean. Of baseball, anyhow. the all-star game just empty empty wednesday i mean of baseball anyhow right i guess you know media members will be traveling and maybe players if you were to hold the futures game or something on that day maybe the minor leaguers would have to get back to their teams but i don't know it seems like on a day when you're not competing with a full slate of mlb games too that might be nice as well yeah partly it's a media problem, but partly it's like if you do actually want to drum up some interest in these events. And I understand that

not every baseball fan and not every MLB fan will be that into these events because look, it's the baseball draft and it's just inherently not going to be quite as intriguing as an NBA draft and NFL draft because the college baseball players or high school baseball players are not as famous and they're further away from the majors. And it may be years before you see them playing in the majors and all of that. I get that it's probably hard to make it as exciting, but if you want it to be exciting at all, you should probably make it at a time when people can watch it and not be distracted by all of these other games going on.

And same for the Futurist game. Not everyone is super into prospects, at least unless they're their own team's prospects. But still, if you want to make that a marquee event, it would help at least to make it at a clear spot on the schedule. And this is the opposite of that. So it's strange. Yeah, it just seems mostly like a missed opportunity. And so I hope that next year when things are, when we are further removed from the pandemic,

that things sort of settle back into a more sort of typical routine. And I think there will be a lot of reasons that that happens. And the most prominent among them will probably be the preference of teams in terms of when they do draft stuff. But trying to think about making big marquee events like this into an opportunity to grow interest in the sport, I think, is a good thing to do also. And then far, far down that list is the convenience that it renders to media members, which is the least important thing here probably. that it renders to media members, which is the least important thing here probably.

But I think that there are compelling reasons to take advantage of opportunities to showcase talent when you can because some of these prospects are really, really exciting and people may not know them, but they also haven't had an opportunity to watch them play. And unlike a lot of other facets of baseball where if you really want to seek it out, you can just turn on MLB TV and go watch a guy who maybe plays in the National League when you watch American League baseball or is on a team that is not in your team's division.

The opportunities to do this are just a little more scattered. And I think people aren't going to buy an MLB TV subscription just to happen upon a prospect. So, you know, like if you want folks to be excited about these guys, I think you have a good event to do it. You just need to put it on a Saturday. Yeah, please. Well, this seems like a case where we should say consult us. It's almost like when we talk about movies or TV shows with weird representations of baseball,

just, hey, come to us and we'll let you know if this seems strange on the surface. You'd think MLB wouldn't have to come to us because they should know baseball pretty well. But when it comes to the marketing and the promotion, sometimes there are some pretty perplexing decisions. So yes. Well, I wish you and Eric Longenhagen and all the rest the best when it comes to actually finding a way to cover all of those things that will be happening at the same time or almost the same time. So just a couple of quick things here. I want to read you a list of teams that, as we speak here on Monday afternoon, have a winning percentage that is equal to or better than the New York Yankees. OK, here we go.

OK. The Giants still on top somehow. Yankees. Okay, here we go. The Giants, still on top somehow. The Dodgers, the Red Sox, the Astros, the Brewers, the White Sox, the Padres, the Rays, the Athletics, the Mets, the Mariners,

the Blue Jays, Cleveland, the Reds, and the Angels. The Yankees, as we speak here on Monday, are 42 and 41. They have one game over 500, and 15 other teams are either one game over 500 or more games than that even the angels the lowly angels we make fun of all the time for being unable to win even with trout even with otani they and the yankees have identical records

right now things are looking bleak we talked about the Yankees not that long ago, so we don't have to get too deep into it again, but things have gotten worse even since we spoke about it, and it's not great when you have the same record as the Angels, when the Mariners, who granted have had everything seemingly

go their way and win every extra innings game and one run game and all the weirdness that sometimes happens with teams that surprise. Still, when that number of teams are ahead of you and you're the Yankees, your fans will be upset and they are indeed upset. Yes. Well, and depending on what you look at, they are either slightly underperforming their expected record or slightly overperforming it so their pythagorean expectation is that they are a 485 team their base runs record would have them at 527 so you know like they're basically sitting right between those two it seems it seems not good um it seems as if

apart from anything else the back end of their bullpen is exposing itself as a potential weakness right now and so i don't know it seems like the most important takeaway here is that even good teams can underperform but you do wonder what they are going to do in the next little bit to address it you know they're one of those teams where if their guys just play better they get you know second half additions in a weird way. But it isn't a team where I would say, oh, they're going to make their way through October a long distance. That wouldn't be my impression of them watching them. So, I mean, I wouldn't think that about the Mariners either,

but they're in a very different place in their competitive window than the Yankees are. Gosh, wouldn't it be? No, it's fine. We're not going to. We're not doing that yet. No. Yeah.

Well, they're not a team that I would envision making it deep into October. They're also not a team that I would envision making it to October at this point. So, yeah, their playoff odds right now, according to Fangraphs, 39.1% chance to make the playoffs with three pretty good teams ahead of them here. It's going to be tough. And I guess even their endless streak of not having a losing season since, what was it, 1992, I want to say, was the last time the Yankees had a losing season, which I think is the second longest streak ever behind another incredibly long Yankees streak. So I don't think that they will end up under 500. But, you know, it's in the realm of possibility now, as is selling at the trade deadline. It's odd. They were projected to be the best team in baseball other than the Dodgers.

And that just hasn't happened. And we've talked about all the issues with runners in scoring position and all the base runners making outs on the bases and all of that. And I just, I don't know what to make of them being this bad, but it seems like every day, just following Lindsay Adler's Twitter feed, long suffering Lindsay and exasperated fans seeming to blame the team's fortunes on beat writers asking the wrong questions on zoom calls and nonsense like that but yeah it's it's tough times now and you know you mentioned that their pythagorean record is even worse than their actual record because they've

been outscored but part of the reason that they've been outscored is that they've done such a bad job of converting base runners into runs and just to update the stat we cited the other day, the Yankees with runners in scoring position have an 83 TOPS+. So their OPS with runners in scoring position is 83% as good as their overall OPS, even though typically OPS with runners in scoring position is even higher than the baseline. They're dead last by a lot in cluster luck on offense. The Mariners, by the way, are the flip side of that. They have a 140 TOPS plus with runners in scoring position. That is first in the majors, and that helps explain how they are 10-1 in extra inning games and 19-7 in one-run games,

but the Yankees just seem too good to be this bad. Everything we know suggests that performance with runners in scoring position is not really a stable and repeatable skill to a great extent and so that might make you optimistic and they have underperformed their expected WOBA based on stat cast stats by more than any other team in the American League 21 points so they've been hitting the ball better than their stats would suggest and yet still perhaps not hitting it quite as well as one would think that they would based on their previous performance. And that's the thing I don't get. Some subset of fans are blaming analytics, quote-unquote, whatever analytics means in 2021,

when statistical information and scouting information are almost indistinguishable. But really, they're trailing the Rays, the ultimate analytics team, the Red Sox, who were run by someone from the rays and managed by someone from the astros the blue jays who were run by former cleveland executives and managed by a former rays coach analytics is this vague kind of catch-all if you want to point to some specific problem that might be more helpful but again this is mostly the same lineup that has been mashing for a few years and it's not as if everyone is ancient outside of Brett Gardner. Maybe you could blame them for counting on Aaron Hicks to stay healthy.

Maybe you could blame them for mismanaging Clint Frazier, who's just been blocked by more established players. So I just have trouble buying the suggestion that there's this fundamental flaw with the way this lineup is constructed. Yeah, it might make sense to have a few lefties, but these guys should be good. I just don't know. Even if you say it's a team built for a mega-juiced ball and sticky stuff, it's tough to blame management for conditions

that changed suddenly in a barely predictable way. And speaking of the sticky stuff, it was funny on Sunday when they announced some of the All-Star players. They announced that Garrett Cole and Aroldis Chapman had made the all-star team as Garrett Cole and Aroldis Chapman were in the in the midst of imploding in a game against the Mets Cole lasted into the fourth he pitched three and a third innings gave up four runs six hits three walks and then Chapman came in and blew another save and took the loss again and both of those those guys, it's been rough lately. And I don't know how much to attribute to the lack of sticky stuff, but because they're who they are, I think everyone is looking at when some of the details came out about what the enforcement plan was going to be. And since that point, Garrett Cole, who's had six starts and came into that period with, you know, the best stats of any American League pitcher, he has a 5.24 ERA with 38 strikeouts and 11 walks in 34 and a third innings pitched,

756 OPS allowed. If you look in his last three starts since the enforcement actually started, 6.46 ERA, 884 OPS allowed, 18 strikeouts and 8 walks in 15 and a third innings. And then with Chapman, who had already looked a little shaky at times before the sticky stuff enforcement went into effect, but just his last three outings since it did, he has a 60.75 ERA over that period. That's not so good. Six walks and two strikeouts in an inning in the third. And a 1972 OPS.

That is not in the range of OPSs that I typically see. So that's been bad. And, you know, Lucas Giolito is another guy who has come up just because Josh Donaldson was calling him out for sticky stuff usage. And his spin rates have been down just in his two starts since the enforcement went into effect. He has a 7.36 ERA, 11 six strikeouts two walks it's it's tough because like you can always slice and dice and find a few outings at any given time right some good pitcher will probably have had a run of a few lousy starts and these guys are coming under really close scrutiny because they've maybe been associated with the sticky stuff or they've suffered some RPM declines. And it's not like on the whole, everyone who has lost some RPM has completely fallen apart. So it really varies based on the pitcher. Like I know there was a fan graphs piece just from this past week about, oh, I'm not going to be able to throw a breaking ball anymore. I can't get a grip. And Devin Fink wrote about how he has had to reinvent himself, or at least he has decided

to reinvent himself. And he's like, junking pitches and inventing new pitches. And it's almost like, are you doing too much? Did you have to do all this stuff? It's really not working for you. So I don't know whether you need to completely reinvent yourself or whether it's almost in some pitchers heads because like we haven't seen the hit by pitch rate go up i believe it's actually been a bit down in june compared to the prior two months so i don't know what to make of it yeah and i will say for those of you who haven't either read devin's piece or jim and caffrey's interview with richards in the athleticic. He says that he used sunscreen and rosin and not any of the stickier stuff. So we'll just throw that out there.

But yeah, in a bit of trivia that will surprise no one, given what we've just said, if you look at the Yankees' bullpen over just the last 30 days, you might look at their war rankings on Frank Ross and say, well, this doesn't look so bad. And then you look at what the bullpen has done from a win probability added perspective and again to the surprise of absolutely no one both given how wpa works and what results they have had 29th in baseball the only the only bullpen worse from that perspective the diamondbacks which you know it's not the best because

diamondbacks famously having a pretty bad season yeah yeah they've been bailed out by some unlikely sources such as nestor cortez jr who is a lot of fun if anyone has not seen him really the quintessential crafty lefty i guess although he's only 26 but he doesn't throw very hard and yet he's like quick pitching and he's slow pitching, and he's all funky, and it's been working great so far. And he's got that. He's a 1.29 ERA through 21 innings. Yeah, the windup is bizarre in the best way. He's got that stash.

Yes. So if you're a Yankees fan, you're like, what will I hold on to? You could hang on to Nestor in like a, you know, metaphorical sense. And the last thing I wanted to mention is that fortunately, Otani's still healthy, still with us, still cranking homers every day. But Kyle Schwarber, who was seemingly matching him homer for homer for a while and was his counterpart as player of the month in June, he hurt himself. And so his pair has been halted for a while. He hurt his hamstring rounding first base after a single on Friday, so I guess his mistake was hitting something other than a homer

because he wasn't tearing any hamstrings during his home run trots. So the single was a mistake, but I wanted to mention this. He'll be out for a while, it looks like, at least until August. And hamstrings, we've talked about hamstrings recently. I guess we talked about hamstrings recently. I guess we talked about it when Nick Madrigal was out for the season because of his hamstring, but it's really been an epidemic this year. And Derek Rhodes and Rob Maines wrote about this recently at Baseball Prospectus in the middle of last month. And Derek has been keeping track of the

injury data for BP, and he's noted that all kinds of injuries are up, but hamstrings seem to be the most up of anything. And it's really been a problem here. I'm just reading from this piece, which I'll link to. The Orthopedic Journal of Sports Medicine published a study of hamstring injuries in baseball in 2019 with data compiled during the 2011 to 2016 seasons. It has several conclusions, many of which predate this year's body count. Hamstring injuries are rising, and again, this is before this year and before the pandemic. Over 60% of them occur while running the bases. Over half occur when batters run from home to first. The mean time missed was 14.5 days, well above the 10-day IL threshold. They often recur. The recidivism rate was 16% in the year study.

They are usually serious. Only 12% were mild grade 1 strains. The remainder were grade 2 and grade 3 injuries involving partial or complete tears. And the rate of injuries is highest in April followed by May and then June. It's thus reasonable to expect the wave of hamstring injuries to recede. And then he continues, why the sudden jump in hamstring injuries this year? Causes of hamstring injuries include a lack of warming up before exercise and muscle imbalances like tight quadriceps or weak glutes. None of these should be the case with professional athletes. And Derek

also tweeted a visualization of hamstring injuries over the past few years that have caused a player to spend at least 30 more days on the IL. And he noted on July 3rd that to that point in the 2019 season, there had been eight such occurrences. In 2021, there have been 21. And that wouldn't even count Schwarber's injury. So Derek tweeted, as far as I'm concerned, 2021 will forever be known as the year of the hamstring strain. I hope that's not how I will remember it, but it's still concerning and as he said, have to imagine it will be a pretty big topic for training and medical staffs this offseason to able to work out the way that they normally would have and maybe still have some muscle imbalances or something. But it sounds like teams and players are really just trying to figure this out, but it's bad. It's hurting lots of players and hurting us because we don't get to watch them while they're out with their hamstring strains or tears.

Yeah, it's strange. I think when we were coming into the season, we had talked about sort of our concern around soft tissue stuff because last year when the KBO came back, they had sort of a rash of soft tissue injuries, right? It did seem like maybe we would get past that because even though guys had a strange year last year, like the ramp up to this season was much more typical. And it's

not like you have to put innings on your hamstring right that's not really the way that works it's so different than it is for pitchers and arms so yeah i don't know that i have a great explanation to account for it but i wish it would stop because uh we're losing out on some really fun stories like i wanted it would have been nice to see schwarber hitting home runs in course after this tear yeah he was gonna be in the home run derby yeah i was i was amped for that yeah this is why i'm kind of in the anti-hustle camp yeah not like you should never hustle but if it's not an extremely high leverage moment maybe just ease off a little bit because you know you might get yourself an infield hit and that's nice, but you might also hurt yourself and then cost yourself

and your team many, many hits. But it's weird. In some of these cases, it's not even like a product of extreme hustle where you could say that it's like, I'm just remembering Mike Trout's calf injury, not a hamstring, but he wasn't going all out. He was just jogging and suddenly it popped or whatever. And Schwarber was rounding first after a single. So that doesn't seem like a case of going all out either. So I don't know what to make of this. Not that Schwarber seems like the most limber major leaguer necessarily, but you would think that

players would be conditioned well enough that they wouldn't just tear stuff while jogging lightly. I don't want to question their conditioning or teams, but it seems odd. Anyway, it's a bummer that all these hamstring strains have happened, but better a hamstring strain than season-ending shoulder surgery, which is what happened to Sixto Sanchez of the Marlins. So that's an even bigger bummer. No Sixto this season, unfortunately. Womp womp.

Yep. All right. So on a happier note, hopefully, let's get to our guest today. And this is a guest we teased a little bit last week, Mickey Janus of the Orioles. And Mickey Janus, for those of you who don't know, is a knuckleball pitcher. He was a 44th round pick of the Tampa Bay Rays in the 2010 amateur draft. He is 33 years old. He's listed at 5'9", 195. He is a right-handed pitcher. But yes, he is a knuckler. And he recently made the majors with the Orioles. He is back in AAA now. Hopefully that stay will be temporary, but we brought him up when he was called up and we said that we might dig into him a little later with Mickey Janus himself. Normally we do the Meet a Major Leaguer segment periodically, and I thought about doing one for Mickey, but then I thought maybe we can just actually meet

him ourselves and he can meet all of you on the podcast. So I suppose I will play the Meet a Major Leaguer theme song. And when we return from that, we will be joined by a major leaguer who is technically not currently a major leaguer, but was very recently a major leaguer. And so he's still eligible for this segment. Our idea was anyone who debuted in the big leagues this year. And Mickey Janus is one of those people. So we will be back in just a moment with Mickey. Meet this nascent major leaguer It's the thrilling debut of somebody new Let's meet this mysterious major leaguer

All right, we are joined now by Mickey Janis, a pitcher for the Norfolk Tides, but recently a pitcher for the Baltimore Orioles and hopefully soon to be a Baltimore Oriole again. Mickey, welcome to the show and congrats on getting the call. Thanks. Thanks for having me. So I want to ask you how you found out and what it felt like when you made the majors for the first time, but I guess we should go back a bit. And I'm sure you've told the story a million times,

but everyone always wants to hear the knuckleball origin story and how pitcher picked it up. And it's tough to do that these days because in the past, knuckleballers would often be taken under another knuckleballer's wing and you would learn it firsthand from someone. But there are just so few knuckleballers around these days that that's kind of tough to do. And as I recall from talking to you a couple of years ago, you were sort of self-taught to an extent. So how did you make that transition and how did you pick it up? Yeah. I mean, when I was a kid, I just, you know, fooled around with it and watched a special on Tim Wakefield. And when I was about 12 or 13 years old, I used to throw it with three fingers. And

then when I watched this special, I made the switch to two fingers on the, on the ball instead. And ever since then I went out and threw it and it's always been really good when I, when I messed around with it. So I, I knew I always had it in my back pocket kind of feeling. And, um, when I got released by the Tampa Bay Rays, um, as a conventional pitcher, I just wanted to do something different. As I was just an average right-handed pitcher at the time, you know, 88 to 92 mile an hour fastball, sinker slider, changeup, just felt like I wanted to do something different. So that's kind of where it all started. And that was back in 2011, 2012, when I made the transition. And that was sort of the heyday of R.A. Dickey, I guess. So was that an influence on you? Did you

model the pitch on him at all? Or was it just that he was having such success at the time that you figured you'd try it? Yeah. I mean, I think I knew I always had a good one when I played catch. And then on top of that, R.A. Dickey was really starting to turn the corner into being like a dominant starting pitcher using the knuckleball. And I threw it really hard comparable to his knuckleball because when people think of a knuckleball, they think of a 65 to 70 mile an hour, like floating knuckleball catch. And then R.A. Dickey kind of made that switch to where it was, you know, upper seventies, low 80s at the time and kind of what I threw mine at. So seeing his success kind of reflected on like, hey, maybe teams are going to be more interested in this going forward

based on the fact that he's so different than every other knuckleballer, not just a knuckleballer, but from every other starting pitcher as well. I saw that as an opportunity and just like, let's see where it can take me. I'm curious how that process went for you as you're trying to refine that pitch in indie ball, which isn't necessarily a place that has as strong a developmental focus as affiliated ball would be. So what were the tools that you used to not only start to hone the pitch, but sort of course correct as you were trying to develop it a bit more? Yeah, the first couple of years were definitely a struggle. I know in 2012, when I signed with an independent ball team, I actually got traded twice before I even started

throwing an independent ball like that off season in 2012 um I got traded twice and then when I when I season finally started I think I showed up and I don't even know if the coaches realized that I had switched to the knuckleball like in my mind I was switching to the knuckleball but in their mind they were getting this pitcher who had two decent years in affiliated ball with the Rays. You know, nothing spectacular, but, you know, enough to get a job in indie ball. So they were expecting that when I showed up. And then I'm like, well, I'm a knuckleball pitcher now. And they're like, okay, well, let's see what you got. And I earned a starting role out of the spring training.

And I kind of struggled with it. I was just effectively wild you know obviously trying to figure out how to throw for strikes and when to mix it in because I still wanted to throw like I said I still had my fastball in the upper 80s low 90s and my slider was really good so you know I still wanted to keep those in my repertoire but also you know switching to the knuckleball. And when I struggled, they kind of moved me back to the bullpen where I had success in affiliated ball. So I kind of got rid of the knuckleball because I'm like, I basically have to pitch for my job now. Like I'm cause they

can easily find another pitcher to, to take my spot. So I was like, well, I got to keep my job. So I kind of got rid of the knuckleball for the rest of the season and, um, ended up throwing really well out of the bullpen. Um, and then the following year I got the, I stayed on the same team and we got a new coach. And that was when I was like, really like, I got to give this thing a full go with the knuckleball. And he was, he was supportive of it. it and again like there's a few struggles here and there but I really started off the season well and then I actually got I think that was the year I got traded from the Frontier League to the Atlantic League and then I went back from the Atlantic League to the Frontier League after I struggled in the Atlantic League with it you know a little bit

better hitters a little more advanced you know little things little bit better hitters, a little more advanced, you know, little things like that. And again, just kind of, you know, it's not going to be perfect every day and it's hard in any ball because it's really all about winning for those coaches. Cause those coaches are basically the general manager, you know, putting the team together and they're, they're playing for their job, so they need to win. So they're finding the best guys. So, you know, there was just struggles with that. I went back to the frontier league to finish the 2013 season and pitched really well and actually went to the Australian baseball league that off season and that's I think that's really where I started throwing well with it I became like a full-time starting pitcher there and threw the ball well and then going into the 2014 season again went back to the same frontier league team again ups and downs with it and then going into the 2014 season again went back to the same frontier league team

again ups and downs with it and then i got traded back to the atlantic league because they needed a starting pitcher and i was like this is it i gotta this is my shot i gotta go out and i went out my first outing and i threw seven shutout innings and had like eight strikeouts and like that was kind of the turning point in my my career with theuckleball, I think, was when I stuck in the Atlantic League against the better hitters to show that it was effective against those hitters. So 2014 was kind of the turning point for me, I think. And with all that moving around, how do catchers react when you come in and say, well, guess what my primary pitch is? Yeah, I know for catchers, you kind of have to embrace it. And unfortunately, not every catcher does. I've had some pretty good catchers in the

organization. And then same thing with the Orioles here that have embraced it, have done pretty well with it. So that's been fortunate enough for me. But most of the catchers I had in Indy Bowl, you know, embraced it, embraced the challenge. But it's definitely a challenge every time. I mean, I know like most guys go out and throw bullpens to the bullpen catcher on days when they need some work or, you know, starting pitchers in between starts. But I always like to throw to at least one of the actual catchers just because of the fact that it's something that you don't see every day. So just to get that work and just to get them comfortable with catching me. And they've been really good about it here with the Orioles. So that's been nice to have.

And at any point, I guess the Mets picked you up in 2015. By then, Dickey had moved on to Toronto. Have you played with or been coached by anyone who threw the knuckleball and could actually help you from personal experience or is it still sort of just trying to figure it out on your own? Yeah, I'd say 95% of it's still trying to figure it out on my own from day to day and, you know, game to game basis. But I do have conversations with a couple guys at the very beginning. I had some conversations with

Charlie Huff was able to work with him once or twice and then lately it's been Tom Candiotti reached out to me when I played in the Arizona Fall League you know we've had some conversations about it and kept in touch but really I mean even people who reach out to me asking like hey how do you throw the knuckleball and it's it's really hard to just like go out and coach it or just like tell them like, Hey, this is what I, this is what works for me, you know, without like seeing them throw it or without having any like trial and error. Cause it's, it's really, it's really a field pitch. And for me, like, you know, what works one day might not work the next day sometimes, you know, but it's just trying to get that consistent delivery down for me all the time. Unlike a lot of pitches, you don't have some of the tools that another pitcher

might have at his disposal to assess how the pitch is working and what his mechanics look like in it. So can you talk a little bit about why you lean toward Edutronic and sort of the role that high speed video is playing for you here? Because I think a lot of our listeners are used to guys, you know, throwing in front of a track man or a rap Soto and that tech doesn't always work that well for a knuckleball. So how are you, how are you getting the information that you need to make adjustments? Yeah. I mean, for my bullpens, I just try and get in front of the, in front of the edge of Toronto camera just because that's the only way I'm able to see how my ball spins and rotates even though it's different during the game I don't have that video during the game to see how it's moving but usually the hitter will tell me enough based on

his reactions and his swings if it's moving or how it's how well it's doing that day so just when I I'd say more when I'm like when I'm not feeling right is when I really try to get on the camera a little bit more just to see what it's doing just so I can get that feel back and because usually when I see the ball rotating a certain way like if it's rotating too much a certain way I can I can go like hey I'm doing this wrong mechanically or you know I'm getting on the side of it a little rotating too much a certain way, I can, I can go like, Hey, I'm doing this wrong mechanically, or, you know, I'm getting on the side of it a little bit too much at release or something like that, where I can, I can kind of make that adjustment on my own for the next time I go out and throw a bullpender in the game or, you know, something like that. So just getting on the camera and being able to slow it down and, and just seeing the spin on the ball has helped

me a lot in making those adjustments from game to game, depending on how I feel and how I see it's coming out of my hand on the camera. Yeah. And when I talked to you the first time back in, I think it was August, maybe, or September of 2019, it seemed like you had just had a bit of a breakthrough with the camera. You were still with Binghamton, the Mets AA affiliate, and suddenly you were striking out double-digit batters, it seemed like, every time out. 10 batters, 12 batters, you know, struck out five, but threw eight scoreless innings and then struck out 10 again. Has that continued or was that just a blip? You know, usually you're not accustomed to seeing such high strikeout numbers for a knuckleballer with some exceptions.

So now that you've been in AAA and even in the majors, do you feel like you're throwing it as well as you have ever thrown it? Not really. It's been a little bit of an adjustment this year because I've been thrown out of the bullpen too. So just being able to, like when I, you know, in the major league game, I came in out of the bullpen and I'm still making that adjustment of getting that feel you know directly for that first batter and throughout the rest of the game and trying to control the adrenaline of coming in out of the bullpen it's just a little bit different feel for me going into the game and again like I said game to game adjustment is different for me so just learning to control that adrenaline because with the knuckleball I almost don't want to be too like hyped up like you know if you're coming in out of the bullpen throwing fastballs you sometimes you

can just throw it as hard as you can and get away with it where that's not the case with the knuckleball you really need to kind of sometimes just slow everything down and take spin off the ball and even you know like a like we talked about in 2019 I was throwing the knuckleball a couple miles an hour harder than I ever had before just because it was just feeling so easy coming out of my hand that way at that time and I was able to just be consistent with it, those six or seven starts, whatever I had on that, on that run. And, you know, after taking, uh, 2020 off because of COVID, you know, just still trying to get that feel back this year, where like, sometimes I've had it and then sometimes I haven't. So I think my command

has been a little bit off this year, but at times I've been really good with it, and then other times I've been effectively wild with it where I'm still able to get some weak swings and stuff like that, but the command hasn't felt as good as it has at that 2019 run, but I've been making some adjustments the last few addings, and I feel like I'm headed that that direction to get that that feel back so it's just a matter of getting out in the games and just being able to throw as much as I can because I feel like the more I throw the better it gets so just getting

out there and pitching and and throwing and just getting that feel back every time out there the name of this podcast is effectively wild so you're giving us some good promotion here. So some people may have learned that you were with Baltimore this spring when you were in big league camp and you were throwing on the high speed camera, I guess. And you sort of went semi-viral when people were looking at your knuckleball on Twitter, not spinning all the way to the plate. But you signed with Baltimore last January, January of 2020. And of course, there was no minor league season. But it seems like, I don't know if it was you or your agent, but Baltimore kind of currently rebuilding and always in need of arms. So it seems like a pretty smart place to play and also a place that has some history of trying to cultivate knuckleballers.

You know, back in 2013, I guess it was, they hired Phil Necro as a consultant and they brought in a few knuckleballers. So your old team, the Rays, tried the same thing a few years later with mixed results. But clearly there's some organizational openness, it seems, to trying to bring along knuckleballers. So how did you end up with Baltimore

and what sort of targets did they set for you? Yeah, they just gave me a call in the off season of 2020. And there's a couple other teams that showed interest, but they had a good conversation with me and, and it was about the whole, um, they're bringing in a lot of the high speed cameras and, you know, they asked me like how it affected, you know, my pitch and how helped me out and, you know, they asked me like how it affected, you know, my pitch and how it helped me out and, you know, just having a conversation with them about it and not just, you know, talking about like, Hey, we, we like you, we want you. That was, you know, that's what some of the other teams had expressed, but they were really intrigued by like what I was

doing. And they were really interested in trying to learn about how I pitch with the knuckleball instead of just you know like oh you throw a knuckleball yeah sure you know having that conversation with them about it and you know then he went back and this guy who called me went back and talked to front office or whoever he talked about and his last comment I just remember him saying like if we decide to go the knuckleball route, we're going to be all in on you. So we're going to be bought in. And, you know, so far they have been and having conversations with, you know, the big league pitching coach and, and,

and our AAA pitching coach down here and, you know, all the different pitching coaches that have been in the organization, you know, just trying to talk to them and having them learn me. Cause most of them haven't had to work with a knuckleball before knuckleball pitcher before. So them trying to learn what I can do and help, help them point things out when I'm, you know, not necessarily on the right path or when I'm struggling in a game or something like that, you know, just having them be able to help me. So, um, them just being totally bought in on, uh, the knuckleball has, has been a huge help for me.

And that has all led up to June 22nd when you were called up and were able to make your major league debut. And I'm sure that the specifics of that outing, you maybe wish had gone a little bit differently, but I wonder if you can talk about what that experience was like, where, where were you when you got the call? What did it feel like? I know you had, I think, a good amount of family there to watch your debut. So what was that day like for you? Yeah, it was a crazy, crazy day, that's for sure. I know we had just gotten, I think we're just finished the home series. So we had an off day and just got up in the morning talking to my wife and ended up just hanging up with her and my daughter

because they were actually on vacation in New Jersey, so I just talked to them. Five minutes after I hung up with them, I got a call from our manager, Gary Kendall, down here in Norfolk. He doesn't usually call at that time so and usually if it's something different with the pitching rotation it will be the pitching coach that reaches out to you so when he called I kind of had an idea I'm like he's he wouldn't be calling with bad news really at this early in the morning especially if we're going to be at the field later

he'd want to tell you in person so I kind of had a feeling and he called and he just said, Hey, I really wish I could make this talk in person, but it's one of the best phone calls I've ever had to make. And just letting you know that the Orioles have purchased your contract and you're going to be heading to Baltimore here today. And, you know, congratulations. This is one of the best phone calls I've made. And best of luck. Just be yourself. Stay true to yourself. You know, do your thing up there. You know, best of luck to you. And the team will be reaching out with travel plans. That's pretty much it. So and then as soon as he said that, you know, my whole body just started kind of shaking.

And you're just like, oh, my God, this is this is happening. And then, you know, hung up with him and called my wife right back and she's like why are you calling me back so quick I was like are you ready to go to Baltimore like you know you just hear her scream and then um she was with some of her family and you just hear them scream in the background once they it was just exciting and I called my parents my sister and i started making some phone calls and packing at the same time so it was just crazy just just the whole uh the whole experience and the same time you're like trying to take it all in but at the same time your mind's going a million miles an hour um trying to figure out what you're going to be doing and and all the plans and

everything so um yeah it was just uh it was just a wild day it's even harder to try and think back as the as the like what i was actually doing because it was just like uh it was almost like an out-of-body experience like i'm doing all this stuff and trying to get ready to go to the field picking my stuff and head to the airport and and everything so it was just uh it was just a crazy day yeah so had that calmed down at all by the next day, June 23rd, when you made your Major League debut? Or was it even more of a fever pitch by then? Did you know that you would be probably pitching that day? No, I didn't know.

I was out of the bullpen. So, you know, anything can happen. You're just kind of staying ready the whole game. Yeah, the first day situation didn't call for me. So I think that helped a little bit I think when I'm warming up in the bullpen and about to run out to the field that's when it was really kind of really kind of hit me and then you know usually when you're out on the field you don't really like hear what's going on especially when you're like warming up and stuff

but for some reason when I was like on the, I heard the PA announcer just go making his major league debut, Mickey Janis on the mound or whatever. And that's when it kind of hit me like I was on the mound. And, you know, you're just like so much adrenaline and trying to get the feeling in your legs and stuff like that. So it's just like and again, that's that's where it was kind of tough for me is just like, you know, with the knuckleball, you're really trying to hold back the energy because you want to be under control with everything. And so I think I was able to do that first little bit of the game. But as the game went on, I mean, obviously the results weren't what I wanted, but just to be out there was pretty amazing and exciting. And, you know, trying to remember it all and take it all in was, like I said, I mean, it's just hard to put into words the feeling out there.

Yeah. And they really threw you into the fire. It's a pretty tough assignment for your major league debut. You come in and you're facing the heart of the order of the Astros, the best hitting team in baseball this season. And suddenly you're facing Jordan Alvarez out of the pen in the fifth inning and you struck him out looking your first batter in the big league so that must have felt pretty good and really your first time through the lineup things went pretty smoothly and it was only once you got to the seventh and you're facing Alvarez and Correa and Tucker and you know all these guys again that the wheels kind of came off a little bit at that point but with the knuckleball if you get hit do you know why you're getting hit is it is it hard to tell just because

the pitch is sort of so mysterious and it's hard to get a feel for it you know if guys are hitting it does that mean that it's just not floating right that day and then do you know why it isn't and if so are you able to diagnose and self-correct? Or is it just one of those things where it's like, oh, I had it for a little while and now it's gone? Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's hard to tell because there are some days where, you know, you don't have it and you don't get hit or you do have it and you do get hit. So some days it is hard to understand the feeling of like, man, I really thought I had a good one today and I got hammered or I didn't have a good one at all.

You know, there's be some games where I go home and tell my wife, I'm like, geez, I really felt terrible out there. Like, I didn't think I had a good one at all today. And I, you know, go a couple shutout innings or something like that, you know? So it's just, it is difficult sometimes, but I think, you know, I was able to see some video on the game. Like I said, I don't think it was my best knuckleball that day. And I was able to make some adjustments going into my last start in Norfolk. Just pitched last week on Thursday, I believe, through okay.

And then, you know, just, again, getting on that high-speed camera for me is a lot of help and just seeing the video of what the ball is doing, how it's spinning, how it's rotating, or if it's not spinning, I should say. But, you know, there are all those days when you're like, man, I really felt like the ball was spinning, the catcher was catching me very easily

because a lot of times that's the tell for me too, is that the catcher's catching me very easy. I'm like, you know, it might not been that good that day. So that's where it's good to get on the camera for me and just see those, see how it is moving. So I can make those adjustments where I feel like, Oh, I'm like I said, getting on the side of the ball or getting, I think in the, in the major league game that I threw, I was getting a lot more like backspin. So I was just, just getting a little, I think just a little too amped and fired up for the game and just overthrowing just a little bit. And sometimes that happens for me when I mix in too many fastballs or, you know, something like

that, just trying to overthrow or, or not really trying to overthrow sometimes. And it just happens. But like I said, I feel like I've made a few adjustments to come out better next time and get ready for my next start. So when you entered the game, the internet sat up and took notice just because of how few knuckleballers there are. People were excited for your debut. But your exit also garnered a lot of attention because you, along with every other major league pitcher, were checked for sticky stuff.

And you're one of the few pitchers we've been able to talk to since the new enforcement started. So I wonder if you could talk about what that experience was like, because, you know, if anyone's going to be assumed innocent here, I imagine a knuckleballer is high on that list. So what was the check like? Yeah, I mean, it was just a quick check. You know, they rubbed down my glove and check your belt and check your hand and hat for stuff. But yeah, I think they kind of know that, you know, I'm not trying to increase spin at all. And the last thing I want to do is create spin for the knuckleball. But it's part of the game now. So I mean, I don't have an issue with it. So I mean, it was kind of a quick little check and actually ended up saying congratulations on your debut right

after so that's kind of nice but but yeah it was uh you know I just kind of asked the question like do I need to take my belt all the way off like what do you need to check um because again that was my first check too so I didn't know exactly what to But yeah, so it was just a quick run through of everything. And again, my emotions were so high. The fact that I even remember him saying congratulations at the end was, you know, it was just such a high for me that it was hard to remember exactly what the conversation was like. But I do remember him saying congrats at the end of it. Is there any advantage to getting a grip i mean i know you're probably not trying to grip it too tightly and as you said you want it to be spinless

but have you used anything in the past is it beneficial to use anything you know not the hardcore spider tack stuff but do you even use rosin or the legal stuff or do you really just i used to use i used to use rosin when i was a conventional pitcher when it was really sweaty hot and sweaty in the summer but um when i kind of made the switch to being a full-time knuckleballer i was like i gotta stop using the sticky stuff because i was thinking that it would help me dry my hand off from the sweat but it really made it tacky too sometimes but yeah yeah, ever since I made the switch to knuckleballer, I try not to use anything. And as much as I can trying to dry my hand off from

sweat, I'm just wiping it on the side of my pants or, you know, my sleeve or something like that, just to dry my hand off. But yeah, I want the anti-stick. I need it as kind of slippery as possible. So it just kind of comes out of my hand a lot smoother. So yeah. And I believe you're the first person to wear number 76 in Orioles history. Is there a story behind that? No, there's not. It's just the number that was assigned to me. So I thought that was kind of cool, though, that I was the first person to wear it. And when they sent you down, did they say, hey, we'll see you soon or here's what we want you to work on to get back up here? I mean, did they leave you with any hope that it won't be a long time back in AAA or are you just kind of, well, I got to work my way back up again? Yeah, I mean, I had some good conversations with Mike Elias and Chris Holt after my heading.

But again, it's baseball. There's no timetable for anything, even if they give you a timetable, most of the time that changes anyway. So for me, it's just going back to work and perfecting the knuckleball and trying to get it as spinless as I can every time out. And just for me, it's always just, you know, getting guys out right now and pounding the strike zone as much as I can. So, you know, when I talked to Chris Holt after the game, you know, he just said there are some positives from the game. And, you know, obviously, you know, the results weren't the best, but you're able to eat up some innings for us. And we look forward to that in the future. And, you know, keep pitching your game and doing what we always talk about,

you know, between our conversations we've had about the knuckleball where he's trying to learn what I can do and I'm trying to help him learn about it. So he's just trying to get back on track to what's been most successful for me in my career. So just, just back to work. And is any part of you able to think, you know, I'm a 44th round pick, that round of the draft doesn't even exist anymore, not even close. I was in IndieBall, I play all over the world, I'm 33, like, it's amazing to make it to the majors. It's an incredible accomplishment. So few people get to do it. And coming from your background and how you made it to that point. It's really amazing. And so I wonder if you're able to savor that in the moment and think, hey, I made it, I beat the odds. Or can you not even allow yourself to feel content or satisfied because you want to make it back up and stay there for a while? it happened so fast. Like I told some of my family, it was up and down so fast that it was just such a crazy week of travel and, and everything. So I'm able to, you know, after the game, you know, you kind of, you never really think you're going to be down that fast, but at the same time, you know, that's all part of the game. And I know they still value me a little bit. So like I said, it's just, it's just been back to work and you know, that's all part of the game. And I know they still value me a little bit. So, like I said, it's just been back to work.

And, you know, all those numbers that you rattled out, the 44th round draft pick, 33 years old, you know, they are all just numbers. So you do, you know, at the end of the day, you realize, like, I did get to pitch in the major leagues. But at the same time, you know, that's not just the goal is to pitch there. It's to stay up there and, you know that that's not just the goal is the pitch there's to stay up there and yeah you know to compete up there at the at that level and you know I know how close I am

because I I did get there but now it's about getting back there and staying up there so like I said back to work and doing what I can to to get back up there so just coming down here back down to Norfolk and you know getting guys out and doing the best I can to get back up there. So just coming down here, back down to Norfolk and, you know, getting guys out and doing the best I can to hopefully help the Orioles in the future. And right now just helping Norfolk win some games. And, you know, if they see me fit to get back up there, that'd be great. And, you know, but like I said, it's just pretty much back to work and back to the grind, as I would say.

Yeah. Well, I wonder wonder maybe we can leave by asking you a little bit about the future of the knuckleball and i wonder how much you think about that and whether you feel the weight of that legacy and kind of carrying on the pitch it's almost unfair i mean i'm sure your priority is just making sure you make the majors and everything but you're you're kind of keeping the flame alive for this pitch that seems almost extinct now. And that's been said before. And then another knuckleballer comes along

and all it takes is one. And sometimes knuckleballers last forever. And so that can keep it going. But really just by making it and throwing some knuckleballs in the big leagues this year, you were the first one to do that. The first true knuckleball pitcher, not a position player who had a knuckler on the side. But you were the first since Stephen Wright and Ryan Fairbairn in 2019.

There were no knuckleballers in the big leagues last year, despite Eric Kratz's best efforts. So do you feel any pride in keeping the pitch alive or do you feel any pressure to be the one to do that? Because, you know, you mentioned that you hear from Charlie Huff or you hear from Tom Candiotti. So it seems like there's a fraternity of knuckleballers, but there just aren't a lot of active members right now. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any pressure with it. I definitely want to keep the craft alive. That means I have to pitch for a few more years. You know, I'll definitely do my best to stick around in the game as long as I can.

And like I've always told myself and told my family, as long as I feel like I can succeed in the major leagues, I'm going to keep giving this a shot. So I definitely feel like I can. So I'm going to, you know, give it everything I can to try and stick up there and, you know, try and carry on the pitch, whether it's me or someone else, you know, I'm going to do my best to get back up there and stick around longer. And one thing I wrote in 2019 that might be a glimmer of hope for the future of the pitch is that if you look at the data,

it seems like umps call knuckleballs less accurately than any other off-speed pitch, which maybe makes some sense. You know, it's hard to throw. It's hard to hit. It's probably hard to call as an umpire as well. And it seems like often those calls go against the knuckleball pitchers. And so I wondered whether if you bring in the automatic strike zone at some point, perhaps in the next few years, then maybe that helps knuckleballers on the whole. So I wonder whether you've noticed that. I mean, I'm sure every pitcher remembers the calls that go against them, but whether that matches up with your perception of how the pitch gets called. I always try to give the umpire the benefit of the doubt. You know, I'm not going to give them a hard time because i know they're doing the best they can out there and honestly pitch is hard enough to throw get a lone catch or try and call a strike here and there but yeah it's definitely i feel like if they go to an automatic strike zone they might have to make

some adjustments for the knuckleball just because of the way it can move. Because there have been, you know, you go back and look at video and see Trackman and things like that, and you see where the pitch crossed the play, and then you realize it crosses in the strike zone, and then it's still bounced. And there's no way that would be acceptable to most hitters. So if they do end up going to an automatic strike zone, they might have to make some adjustments for for some knuckleball pitchers but i mean i wouldn't have a problem

if they called it a strike and it's so balanced right so it would be uh it'd be interesting to see how it all played out but um but yeah it would be uh it'd be fun to see yeah and you'd think that as pitchers keep throwing harder and harder that maybe there would be some benefit to the contrast in speeds i don't know whether that's something you've heard from teammates or from opposing hitters but especially in short bursts if you were going to come out of the pen and you're following some flamethrower who's throwing fastball slider and then you come in with the knuckler that's going who knows 20 30 miles per hour slower. That seems like it would be a tough adjustment.

So I don't know. Maybe the fact that there are so few knuckleballers and everyone else is throwing so hard might help you in the long run. But I don't know. Does that match up with what you hear from hitters? Do you hear much from hitters just because they don't see many other knuckleballers other than you? Sometimes it's hard to talk to the other team. but I mean, I know there's an article that came out in LA Times earlier this year about knuckleballer as an opener. So that's always

kind of been intriguing because we can throw every day. I threw close to 70 pitches in that big league game, I think, in three and a third innings and probably needed one day off and then I was good to go the next day. But so being an opener, you know, you'd be able to throw a couple times a week or whatever, just once for the order for an inning or whatever, just to throw them off. So, I mean, I've always felt like I can pitch every day. So, you know, I think there is some value to that. And that is something that I've talked about with the Orioles, you know, in spring training and stuff like that, just how much pitching affects me and you know being able to come back on short rest and things like that so I think there is value to that and that is one of the things they valued about me when they talked about me is

that they see me pitching in any role whether they need me to spot start I can spot start if they need me to eat up innings out of the bullpen I can eat up innings if they need me multiple days in a row I'm fine with doing that too so I think I always just tell them I'm I'm here to pitch whenever you need me so I think there is a lot of value to that especially with with everybody throwing harder now with unbelievable breaking balls and stuff like that so it's it's definitely uh the biggest thing is like like I had in the big league game you know I had four walks and three and a third innings. You know, that's always been the toughest part is, you know,

the ball doesn't knuckle you. It's basically like a batting practice fastball. And, you know, I gave a three-home run, but I had four walks. And I had a strikeout. You know, you kind of got a little bit of everything in my big league debut. So it's just kind of the nature of the pitch. So just making those adjustments. And like I said, I think there is value

to being completely different. That's why I made the switch originally to be a knuckleball pitcher is just because I wanted to be different than every other pitcher out there. All right. Well, we hope that you won't be the last of the knuckleballers,

but we certainly hope that we haven't seen the last of you on a major league mound. As I'm sure many people have pointed out, 33 is young in knuckleballer years, so you've got plenty of pitching time left. For now, you can find Mickey on Twitter, at Mickey Janus. You can also find him pitching for Norfolk. He is scheduled to start next on Wednesday, but here's hoping that you get that call again sometime soon. And thank you very much for coming on and for your time today. All right. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. All right. Thanks to Mickey for joining us. And we were talking about how tough the knuckleball can be to catch. Here's a little fun fact for you, courtesy of a tweet by Codify Baseball from March,

which Mickey Janis quote tweeted. You know how we feel about the drop third strike around here. It's kind of an archaic vestigial rule. Codify looked up the pitchers with the most career batters who reached base after a strikeout. Here's the list. With 73, Phil Necro. 52, Tim Wakefield. 43, Hoyt Wilhelm. 38, Charlie Huff.

32, Wilbur Wood. 30, Joe Necro. 24, Tom Candiotti. And also 24, Dutch Leonard. Noticing a theme here? The most by a non-knuckleballer, 18. So yeah, weird pitch. And I'd encourage you to watch a couple of videos that I will link from the show page. One is that viral video from this spring that I mentioned, which has some great camera work that captures Janice's knuckler in mid-flight. And the other one is an edgertronic

high-speed video that Janice sent to the Pitching Ninja, and in that one you see it from Janice's perspective as the ball wobbles and floats toward the catcher, who completely whiffs. It's just a practice pitch, but it's not any easier to catch in-game. You can also find a video linked from our show page of Janice's pitch grip for his knuckler. And the last thing I want to mention about Mickey, he became a victim of the zombie runner rule. In late May, before he was called up, he was pitching in a AAA game. He entered in relief and he threw five perfect innings. And yet he took the loss in a 5-4 defeat. He didn't allow a hit. He didn't walk anyone. He didn't strike out anyone. He retired all 15 batters he faced, but he pitched into the 10th inning. The game was tied 4-4. The zombie runner started the inning on second, was bunted over to third, and scored on a sack fly. And Janus took the hard luck loss. So we've gotten the question many, many times over the past couple seasons, can you lose a perfect game? This was not a perfect game because he only pitched five innings and entered in relief. But this is an illustration of the fact that yes, you can now lose a perfect game,

as unlikely as it is. Thanks to the zombie runner rule, being perfect is no longer necessarily enough. It's like that built to spell song, when not being stupid is not enough. For Janice, being perfect was not enough either. And I will leave you with one more link from the show page. For anyone who is a fan of the Nick Castellanos meme, which I wrote about at the Ringer this spring, you know the drive into deep left field by Castellanos that interrupted the Tom Brenneman apology last year. Well, on Monday night in Kansas City, that scene was repeated almost exactly. This time it was not an apology, it was a eulogy. On the Kansas City broadcast, a World War II veteran who recently passed away

and was the father of a longtime Kansas City Royals employee, was receiving a tribute, and right in the middle of that tribute, Nick Castellanos hit a drive into deep left field against the same team in the same ballpark and basically the same place he hit the one last year. And this time he interrupted yet another somber moment, just uncanny. As friend of the show Emma Batchelary tweeted, if someone in the Reds baseball operations department doesn't come in tomorrow and say, here's the plan, in any one-run game with Castellanos at the plate, the broadcast must be provided with a piece of solemn news to share.

What is even the point of this sport? And lastly, an important follow-up, we recorded our preceding two episodes last Thursday night prior to the news that MLB had placed Trevor Bauer on administrative leave amid the leagues and the Pasadena Police Department's investigations into an accusation that Bauer brutally assaulted a woman with whom he had two sexual encounters earlier this year. You almost certainly know that by now, but just in case there is anyone who follows baseball exclusively via Effectively Wild, which I shudder to think what picture of baseball

you have formed from that, but thank you for trusting us as your sole information source. Anyway, we discussed Bauer on episode 1714, and we speculated and hoped that he would be placed on administrative leave prior a seven-day paid leave, but it can be extended beyond that. And of course, it is also possible for MLB to conclude that he should be suspended before any charges are filed or any arrest is made or even if those things don't happen. So MLB's investigation is also ongoing, and we will likely let you know what comes of that. So it was sort of strange that MLB took as long as it did to place Bauer on leave. That was the subject of some of our discussion last week, but it became untenable for the league not to do that. I think there was a lot of growing outcry, and whether it was MLB's plan to do that then or not, it was pretty imperative that they make that call. And we thank everyone for your responses to that episode, which seemed to resonate with a lot of you. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some small monthly amount to help keep the podcast going and get themselves access to some perks. Matthew Rakow, Amber Brown, John Klein, Matthew Lacadara, and Wyatt Fine-Gagne.

Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. Keep your questions and comments coming for me and Meg via email at podcast.fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. We will be back with another episode a little later this week. Talk to you then.

I need to stay awake tonight Because you're slipping in my mind Cause when I'm finally floating I know what a dream's gonna be about I know what the dream is about