Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1871: Empire State of Grind

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the possible end of the Taylor Ward/Tyler Wade broadcaster confusion, Ward getting caught unawares at first base, and the Twins turning the first-ever 8-5 triple play, then Stat Blast (11:06) about Cam Vieaux and the most pitches thrown in various types of innings, share a Past Blast (23:33) […]

I saw you with your handsome new dude kissing and smiling last night. I would rather have poison beaked sparrows pluck out my crying eyes. One of us has got to go, babe. One of us has got to go. How it pains me to tell you so, babe. One of us has got to go. Hello and welcome to episode 1871 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Rowley of Fangraphs.

Meg, how are you? I'm okay. How are you? I'm doing really well because I think the era of the Tyler Wade, Taylor Ward broadcaster and podcaster mix-up could be behind us. Sadly, it had to come because Tyler Wade was designated for assignment by the Angels. So now Wade and Ward are no longer teammates. And maybe, maybe that brings an end to what had become a recurring segment on the show. I don't know what we'll talk about now. Yeah.

Because that had become almost a daily occurrence that someone had screwed up the names of Wade and Ward. Now, hopefully, because they're not in the same lineup, in the same uniform, one is on base while the other is batting. Perhaps with less proximity, we will be able to keep the two straight now. It might happen. It might happen. Although there is the possibility that we are just going to transfer our confusion to other members of the Angels roster, because while we are free of this particular nightmare, we still have a Marsh and a Walsh.

We have Noah Syndergaard moonlighting as a position player, cosplaying, if you will, just moving back and forth really, really fast, lending the impression that there are two guys. But at least one's a pitcher, one's a position player, and their names are not actually similar. Yes. David McKinnon does not sound like Noah Syndergaard. No. That is crucial.

He simply looks like him. David McKinnon does not sound like Noah Sindergaard. That is crucial. He simply looks like him. not either a Tyler or a Taylor that also starts with the same letters at the surname. That was really key to the confusion, the Wade and the Ward. So I hope that this will be averted. I'm sorry that this had to come at Tyler Wade's expense, obviously, but something had to give. The roster was only big enough for one of them, unfortunately, and ward has been the much better player so he gets to claim the tyler taylor wa surname title i can't i just you know you you got to be free after like half a season meanwhile i dealt with the dansby swanson charlie culberson lookalike problem for years spent for literally years. Yeah, we had just barely started to appreciate how common it was for broadcasters to mix these

names up. And now suddenly it's over. I'll miss it now that it's gone. So hopefully for the angels sake, they didn't release the wrong guy. You want to cut the one with the 50 something WRC plus and keep the one with the 170 something WRC plus+, and keep the one with the 170-something WRC+. But if anyone does hear anyone still being mistaken for a different Tyler or Taylor, or if Ward still gets called Wade at some point, or Wade gets called Ward wherever he goes, please don't hesitate to let us know. But that will probably become a less common occurrence. Speaking of Ward, he was involved in sort of a strange play over the weekend where I wouldn't call it a trick. It wasn't a hidden ball trick exactly. It was

sort of a deke, but not even really a deke. I don't know what to call it. Like a hidden fielder trick. Ward had just singled. The ball went out to right field. Right fielder Kyle Tucker through to second base Jose Altuve they're playing the Astros and Ward was just rounding first and backing up toward the bag and Altuve was like pantomiming as if he was going to throw to first and Ward didn't realize I guess that Martin Maldonado the Astros catcher had crept up behind him. This was sort of a planned play. So he was seeing Altuve gesture as if he was going to throw, but Ward was putting his hand out as if he was going to catch the ball because he didn't realize someone was back there.

And I guess maybe he thought he was on the bag, but he was actually sort of— He was not. No, he was not actually touching the bag. And Maldonato crept in and applied the tag much to ward's surprise there was a catcher back there and he got tagged and that was that so that was sort of a weird one yeah it was it was definitely an odd play there was something very like there's something very sweet about what he does while he's standing there where he's like oh you're gonna throw me the why are you but sure i'll take like i'll take it like if you want to throw it over oh no

yeah he thought it was like a nice friendly little gesture oh he's gonna toss me the ball oh that's nice oh do we think that he do we think that taylor ward not tyler wade do we think that taylor ward thought that like altuve was aware of some milestone that that hit represented like he was gonna give him the ball yeah like oh don't you want this one because it's meaningful to you oh let me get get oh yeah like he has this look like oh no but yeah i wonder if we are seeing a confluence of of several effectively wild points of fascination where maybe taylor ward was like oh is am i supposed to care about this ball does this mean something for me other than embarrassment i guess i'll take it oh no you know so it was a it was a very funny little moment it was was. And there was another weird one. I guess this is not as related to ongoing podcast bits that we have, but there was the

first ever 8-5 triple play that was started by the twins Byron Buxton against the White Sox, who I should note still have a losing record on the season. That is still something that is happening. And here is an example of why yeah so the white socks ran into a triple play here on a fly out to center yep now it was a really nice catch it was a classic buxtonian snag yes on the warning track in deep right center somehow though that led to a triple a triple play there were runners on first and second and they just kind of kept running yeah so i guess adam angle was the lead runner maybe and correct

he just didn't think that buxton had made the catch he did not he clearly did not think that buxton had made the catch because he he moves back toward the bag as if he needs to tag up in order to advance but does not and he doesn't miss it by like a little bit he he is you know he has like a at least a step between him and the bag when he starts to run toward third which suggests to me that yeah he really thought that this this ball was not going to be caught and that it would drop in for a hit yeah and who was it it was yan moncada i think was on first right aj pollock hit the fly ball and so moncada then gets tagged actually yeah as he comes around second and is kind of caught between second and third and then by that time engel had like crossed home plate already i think so they just kind of had to run it back to the first base to get that last out. So triple play on just a weird sequence of events. We don't talk about every triple play here, but this seems historically significant. It's the first instance of an 8-5 triple play that anyone has been able to dig up. that more often than not lately when we have seen triple plays it has felt and this is this sense

might not be accurate although it's kind of surprising that we don't have perfect recall on these because there are so few triple plays relative to other outs or other sequences of outs rather but often like when we have seen triple plays lately they have been of the like you know two runners end up on the same bag and the catcher is just wildly tagging both of them going you're out you're out you're out and then someone steps off the back no this one is like i get it it is a very nice catch and i wonder how long it will take to internalize that you know look byron buxton is not going to make every play in center field he is he is going to make a lot of them though and you should perhaps Buxton adjust your expectations of the the playability of a ball when he's the one out there because he's just

I mean you said this isn't really doing effectively wild stuff apart from the fact that we are keen to point out just how incredible Byron Buxton is because boy Byron Buxton you know he's really good at baseball one of my favorite moments of this sequence, because I was watching this live, was the camera panned to the White Sox dugout, and Tony La Russa just has this look on his face like, are you f***ing kidding me? He's just stunned, sitting there in stunned disbelief. And they had two on with no out when the ball went into the air,

and then they were done, and they ended up losing this game in extras. So that sucks. Yeah, the run expectancy during that play, if you could chart it second by second after the ball is hit, and I think the hit probability was like 82% or something, and obviously if it's a hit, it would be an extra base hit. 82% or something. And obviously, if it's a hit, it would be an extra base hit. And so you'd have to think that the expectation right off the bat is that both of these runs are going to score, the White Sox are going to take a two-run lead in the seventh inning, like your win expectancy is

going way up. And then somehow, by the time this play is over, the inning is also over, and the rally is over, and the game is still tied, and they lost. So yeah, not great. Tony has made some howlers of his own this season. In fact, relevant to our recent discussion of why people in the dugout think they can assess pitch location so precisely, I believe La Russa was ejected from that same game after he protested a ball call that appeared pretty clearly correct anyway i guess i misspoke i lost track of i guess the third out was actually made it second because they tagged and then they also had to go back to second yes to get the runner angle who had left from second although he was no longer even in the frame here although they did then ultimately throw back to first i think just to literally cover all their bases. But yes, that's the way it went down. We will link to examples, video clips of these plays for those of you listening at home.

So I do have an interview that I'm excited about that I want to tell you about in just a moment. But I have a stat blast and a pass blast, and the stat blast is prompted by recent events. So let's cue up the song. Okay, so I don't know if you saw the nightmare inning that a poor rookie pitcher on the Pirates named Cam View had the other day. Yeah. Did not go great for Cam. It made ESPN. Yeah. This was on Friday.

The Brewers were playing the Pirates. The Brewers ended up winning 19-2. And a lot of those runs were scored against poor Cam View, who was, I I think in something like his fifth major league game at that point so he comes into the eighth inning the Brewers are already up nine to one he's facing the bottom of the order and here's how it goes for Cam View ground roll double walk single to short passed ball ball, walk, single to first, home run, reached on an error, error to short, single to center. Then there's a pinch hitter, double to left, walk, finally, an out, a line out to deep center, according to the play log.

And then a strikeout swing and then another fly to center. So once he started getting the outs, he got three in a row. It just took a really long time to get to that point. So it was 9-1 when that inning began. It was 17-1 when that inning ended. And he was just left out there to wear it. And he threw a lot of pitches in that inning. He threw 56 pitches, I believe, to get through that frame.

threw 56 pitches, I believe, to get through that frame. And I think he threw 47 before he actually got an out, which was impressive in a sense, extremely unimpressive in another sense. So this was some topic of conversation in the Effectively Wild Patreon Discord group, where some people were asking whether this was some sort of record. What is the most pitches in one inning before one out was recorded? This was from listener EJ and frequent StatBlast consultant Ryan Nelson, who's also in there and sometimes answers questions not on the podcast. He found out that the record for the most pitches in an inning before an out was recorded is actually 59. In the bottom of the first on June 27th, 2003, the Red Sox went up 10 to 1 on the Marlins before making a single out in the game. So that's not great. This was Carl

Pavano, the great Carl Pavano pitching. He did not record an out in this game. He started, he allowed six earned and just got knocked out of the box. So it went double, single, double, homer, double, single. Oh my gosh. pop fly but apparently it took 59 pitches to get that first out and then after that pop it went single walk run scoring sack fly walk double walk single just kind of kept going for a while anyway that was a team effort but that was the record there so i think cam's 47 was only like tied for 19th all-time most pitches to get the first out of an inning. So maybe that's some consolation to Cam View. I don't know. But Ryan also looked up the most pitches ever thrown between outs.

And this was apparently in the bottom of the eighth between the Reds and the Dodgers on August 8th, 1954. Now, normally we don't have pitch by pitch data that early. It starts for 1988 league wide. But the Dodgers statistician, the first full time team statistician, Alan Roth, who was with them under Branch Rickey starting in the 40s and stayed with them to the 60s. He kept meticulous pitch by pitch records and that is available to the 60s, he kept meticulous pitch-by-pitch records, and that is available to RetroSheet. So we do have some limited pitch-by-pitch data for that era, and if we trust that that was accurate, then on August 8th, 1954, bottom of the eighth, after getting two outs, the Reds had to throw 61 more pitches to get the third out. And in that time, there were seven walks, six hits, and 12 runs scored.

That's rough. So there was an actual email that we got that was related to this, which is from Anthony, who says, Tonight, and this was back on June 10th, Marco Gonzalez threw 44 pitches in the top of the first against the Red Sox. That included three walks and two strikeouts. Somehow, he only gave up a single run. Marco Gonzalez threw 44 pitches in the top of the first against the Red Sox. That included three walks and two strikeouts. Somehow he only gave up a single run.

That seems pretty crazy to me, Anthony says. My question is whether this is some kind of record or close to it. More specifically, what are the records for the most pitches thrown in an inning while giving up no runs, one run, two runs, etc. So Ryan also was able to look this up with his trusty RetroSheet database. And I should note, you can find Ryan on Twitter at rsnelson23. So this may have been mentioned at some point in the past on the podcast, but the most pitches thrown on record in an inning where no runs were allowed was 52. So this was the fourth inning, White Sox versus Marlins on May 23rd, 2010, and Scott Leinbrink was pitching. And he actually gave up no hits, it looks like, but it was just a really long inning, long plate appearances, two walks, a hit by pitch, a couple of of strikeouts and he got out of it somehow

unfortunately for the white socks that day their other pitchers did not get unscathed out of other innings and they lost 13 to nothing but 52 pitches thrown that's the most that we know of in any scoreless inning yeah now if you go to a one run inning it is a tie for 54. That happened on April 16th, 1994, seventh inning of Angels Blue Jays with a few pitchers involved, and May 4th, 2002, the eighth inning of Yankees Mariners with Mike Stanton and Steve Carsey teaming up to throw those 54 pitches and allow one run. If we go to two runs, the most pitches thrown in a two-run inning is 58. That is September 13, 2015, first inning. And that was the Tigers against Cleveland, and it was Randy Wolfe pitching. We go up to three runs.

Now we're up to 67 pitches. That was September 8, 1997, the sixth inning of Mets-Phillies with a couple of pitchers combining. Now we're up to four runs in an inning, and actually this is a little lower. It is 63. That was August 13th, 2002, seventh runs allowed. This is 66, and that's a tie between April 14, 1996, the fifth inning of Cleveland versus Boston, and May 30, 1995, the eighth inning of Rockies and Mets. Six runs. We're up to now 75 pitches. There have been 75 pitches in a six-run inning. That is April 9th, 1997, top of the first, Cleveland against Seattle, Bartolo Colon and Steve Kline. And lastly, in a seven or seven-plus run inning, 105 pitches. So this was April 19th, 1996, the eighth inning of Orioles and Rangers. And I will put all of this online, but Ryan made a little table where he has the pitchers who pitched in these innings.

And usually it lists the names. For this one, he just says lots. So this was a nine-hit inning with eight walks also, it looks like. So this was in a game between the Orioles and Rangers, as I said, that ended up being 26 to 7 in favor of the Rangers. So this was the bottom of the eighth. So the Rangers were batting. They were ahead 10 to 7. Armando Benitez started the inning for the Orioles, and here's how it went. He was replacing Roger McDowell. It went single, stolen base, walk, wild pitch, walk. Then the immortal Jesse Orozco came in to replace Benitez. Then it went double, Then it went double, sack fly, home run, single, single, single, walk, single, walk. Now Manny Alexander replaces Jesse Orozco. Oh, my God.

We have another walk. Then we have another walk. And then we have yet another walk. There are a few pinch runners involved here. Then we have yet another sack fly, a walk, a home run, and finally an inning ending ground out. So when that inning started, it was 10 to 7 with the Rangers ahead. And when the inning ended, the Orioles were batting and they were then trailing 26 to 7. So that didn't go great.

And that's uh 105 pitches so you know we've seen complete games pitched in a lot less than 105 pitches so this was a game's worth of pitches for one team in just the bottom of the eighth that's an ugly inning or a great inning depending on your perspective yeah that's it's like at what point? I mean, obviously, if you boil like what a pitching staff is trying to do in any given inning, like they're trying to score before i mean like you still want three outs three outs gets you out of the inning but at what point does your goal like your macro goal shift from get three outs so that we can win to get three outs so that we can just get off this stinking field like when does your calculus for success start to shift in that run scoring? Yeah, maybe about halfway through. Yeah, I think that might be about right. Somehow that game, let's see how long that game was because that's a lot of pitches.

It was only four hours and 15 minutes for that entire game, even though that was like half a game's worth of pitches in that one half inning. So I guess the rest of the game was played at a pretty brisk pace, apparently. But boy, yeah, that's a rough one. There were 41,184 in attendance when that game started. It was 92 degrees in Arlington. So I don't know. By that point, it was a Let's see First pitch was 735 local

So at least by that time it had probably Cooled down So they weren't sitting in sweltering heat But I'm guessing that Of the 41,184 That were there to begin the game Only a small fraction were there After the end of the bottom of the eighth

How many were still around in the top of the ninth? If you stayed for the top of the ninth of that game with the Orioles trying to come back from a 26-7 deficit, please write in and let us know how that went for you. I hope that those people got, like, if there are any of them, that they got, like, you should get, like, free season tickets after that. Like, it is, you are pledging your truth in a very significant way at that point yep bobby bonilla who we talked about last time yeah last out in that game all right okay i will now give you the past blast although i will mention that as always the stat blast is sponsored we do not have a past blast sponsor maybe we gotta pick up a past sponsor maybe uh baseball reference stat Stathead can sponsor both unofficially just because, you know, we look up the past with Stathead as well.

all kinds of baseball data, and not just MLB data, but all other sports as well. Lots of other high-level leagues are StatHeadable too, and you can go to StatHead.com. You can look up the game tools. You can look up tools just for individual players, for teams, for games. It's all available there. You can look up splits. You can look up streaks. It is an extremely deep resource and it is expanding all the time. They are constantly tinkering and upgrading. So use our coupon code WILD20,

that is W-I-L-D-2-0, to get a $20 discount on the $80 one-year subscription. So the past blast, this is episode 1871. So this past blast comes from 1871 and from Richard Hershberger, who is a historian, saber researcher, and author of Strike Four, a convention of delegates from the professional baseball clubs of the country. Whenever I say baseball in this segment, just imagine that it is two different words, base and ball. A convention of delegates from the professional baseball club of the country was held at No. 840 Broadway last evening. At the time the call for the convention was sent out, its objects were stated to be the settlement of the manner of achieving the title of champion club of the county and the arrangement of the roots of the club tours during the season, but the action of the amateur clubs in withdrawing from the

national association in which both professional and amateur clubs had been represented and their organization of an exclusive convention caused the scope of the convention's duties to be enlarged, and, in the opinion of a majority of the delegates, made necessary the reorganization of the National Association on a professional basis. This idea was for a time combated by those delegates who did not conceive themselves to be closed with power further than to carry out the original objects of the convention until a clause necessitating its approval by their clubs was appended to the resolution, carrying it into effect. All the delegates, with the exception of Mr. Davidson, secretary of the mutual club who withdrew for a time from the proceedings of the convention because of the

gabbling of an officious director of his club, then voted for the passage of the resolution, and the convention became known as the National Association of Professional Baseball Players. So Richard writes, here we have the founding of the first professional baseball league. This is more of a big picture item than I usually present. I'm making an exception due to the place and date. The report discreetly lists the street address of the meeting place without naming it Collier's Saloon. The date was March 17th. The first professional baseball league was founded on St. Patrick's Day in the back room of a bar.

Every so often, Richard writes, we find a historical fact that is so utterly perfect that we can only stand back and admire. So yeah, this was prior to the founding of the National League. That will come in five more years, 1876. But this, if you look up on baseball reference, the beginning of Major League history, there's a bit of a difference of opinion there between MLB as a business, as a body, and baseball reference, which dates the beginning of Major League Play to 1871, the National Association. So this was the founding of that league, the first professional baseball league. So that is a momentous time. And Richard's right.

Usually we're talking about some weird, quirky occurrence or some odd rule or someone complaining about something not being manly enough or being too boyish or whatever. But in this case, we have a momentous moment that also seems to have happened on St. Patrick's Day in the back of a bar, which is maybe not commonly known. So there's your origin of professional baseball or at least a professional baseball league. Very exciting stuff. Mm-hmm. So speaking of professional baseball leagues. Segway. We've got a guest here. I did this one solo, but I'm excited to tell you about this one and for everyone to hear it.

So people will know that I am something of an aficionado of bad baseball teams. And I don't mean that in a moral qualitative sense. Right. I just mean in terms of their win-loss record. It's one of your beats. which was originally a Pecos League team. That is the lowest level of indie ball, but was jumped up that year to the American Association, a much higher level indie league, and they needed a team to fill out the league.

And so they called up the Salinas Stockade, and they were a traveling team throughout the season. So they hardly played any home games. They were just always on the road. They were there really to fill out the schedule so that everyone would have someone to play and that there would be the right number of games. And a lot of those players came from that lower level Pecos League. And so they were very overmatched, but they persisted and they ended up finishing that season 18 and 82, which is not great. But I went out to see them play and I wrote a feature

about that for The Ringer and they turned out to have an interesting manager and sort of a sympathetic story. So I'll link to that if anyone is interested. But we've got a new bad baseball team in town. And again, I don't want to dump on them because they are in a similarly challenging situation. Very similar, actually. So this is the Empire State Grays. Let me introduce you to the Empire State Grays, who are a new team that was formed to fill out the Frontier League. So the Frontier League is a mid-level independent league. Some listeners know of my love for indie ball going back to 2015 and the Sonoma Stompers,

and the only rule is it has to work. But this is a higher-level league. It's now an official partner league of MLB. A lot of former and perhaps future high-level professional players, even some former and perhaps future major leaguers bouncing around that league. So it is a higher caliber of play. And the Empire State Grays, they were kind of put together from this little league in upstate New York called the Empire League, which is sort of a rookie level league, a developmental league,

a place for people to play and perhaps get seen and get pulled up to a higher level league. But the Frontier League lost the team late last season. So they had to promote someone or create a new team. And it turns out that that's the Empire State Grace. So they, like the Salinas Stockade, are a traveling team. They are always on the road. They do not have a home. They never get to play in front of a home team. They are just constantly going to other teams' parks.

And they are composed primarily or almost entirely of previously lower-level players who have not played at the Frontier League level prior to this. And in terms of the results, it has not gone great, Meg. It has really just not gone great. So not to spoil anything, but they were actually playing a game while I was conducting this interview. So you will hear us mention that there is a game45 winning percentage which is you know if you extrapolate that over 162 game season that's your standard seven win season yeah over a 96 game season which is what the frontier league plays that's a four win season so uh you know they're halfway there i guess to their extrapolated winning percentage.

However, things have looked up a little bit for them lately. So they started the season 0-35. Now, that is a record, I believe. They did not quite get to the record for professional teams losing streak, which as far as anyone has been able to determine, and I've looked at various sources, but it seems like the record is the 1923 Muskogee Mets, LOL Mets, right? LOL Muskogee Mets. This is obviously not affiliated with the New York Mets, who were still almost 40 years from existing at that point. But the Muskogee Mets, they were in a little league, a Class C league called the Southwestern League, and they somehow lost 38 consecutive games that year in 1923. Weirdly, they were pretty good

outside of that 38-game losing streak. They were a winning team when they were not losing 38 consecutive games because they ended up, I think, 57 and 79 that season. So if you do the math, like outside of that losing streak, they were actually quite successful. So I've not done the research to see what was happening exactly during that stretch, but they had the record.

So the Grays came close to equaling that, but did not quite do it because they snapped their streak in their 36th game of the season when they beat the Tri-City Valley Cats 9-3. So I think it is the longest losing streak to start a professional season and the longest losing streak in a professional season in almost 100 years. So this is quite historically significant. And if you look at the Frontier League stats pages, the Grays are last or worst in everything, basically. grays are last or worst in everything basically so you know they have the fewest runs scored and the fewest walks drawn they do not actually have the most strikeouts offensively so that's something they have the fewest stolen bases they have the lowest average they have the lowest on base they have the lowest slugging percentage they have the fewest hits they have the lowest on base. They have the lowest slugging percentage. They have the fewest hits. They have the fewest homers. You get the point. They are not an offensive powerhouse, but they are also not a pitching powerhouse either. So they have the most runs allowed on the season. They have a staff ERA right around nine, I believe now. They have the most home runs allowed. They have the most

walks allowed. They have the fewest strikeouts recorded. I could go on, but I guess I will be merciful and not go on. The point is they are composed of players who are not of that level. They are younger, inexperienced. They haven't played against these guys before, and they were formed early this year, and then they had to start the season a few months later, and they're on the road constantly. So you would not expect them to have a good win-loss record. So the fact that they have persevered through all of this, I think, is commendable and speaks well of them. And it seems like their spirits are still somewhat high, but they are going for history here so i did mention that they have two wins now so i guess they're uh two and six over their last eight or something like that so

things have looked up a little bit for them they actually faced kumar rocker the other day they were the last team to face kumar rocker before he concluded his frontierier League stint prior to entering the Major League Draft. And he dominated. He went five innings, gave up two hits, no earned runs, one walk, seven Ks, 44 strikes on 69 pitches against the Grays. But they were his last tune-up before the draft. So that's something. So we got a little Kumar Rocker scouting report on this segment.

But if you want to know what the history is that they are chasing here or really fleeing from and trying not to chase, I asked Kenny Jacklin of Baseball Reference for the worst single season winning percentage for any team in the Baseball Reference database, any professional, that is, in a season of at least 80 games. So the record is the Tijuana Cimarrones of the 2010 Golden League. That's another indie league. They went 10 and 74. So that is a winning percentage of 119. So that is the mark to beat for the Grays, and they're going to have to get in gear to beat it because, again, their winning percentage currently is 45, which is less than half of what Tijuana's was in 2010. After that, you have the infamous, legendary Cleveland Spiders of the 1899 National League. They were 20 and 134.

That is a 130 winning percentage. And then you have the NYSL Federals of the 2011 Canadian American League. That's another Indy League. They were 15 and 78. You have the Portland Gulls of the 1946 New England League. They were 20 and 99. The Pittsburgh Alleghenies of the 1890 National League, 23 and 113. The Houston Apollos of the 2021 American Association.

We didn't talk about them, but they were another team in Indie Ball last year. They went 17 and 83. That's a 170 winning percentage. So we could go on. The Salinas Stockade are actually ninth on this list. The only other teams lower than they are that we haven't mentioned were the Philadelphia Quakers of the 1883 National League. They were 17 and 81.

And then finally, the Rocky Mount Pines of the 1980 Carolina League. They were 24 and 114. So I'll put that whole leaderboard, laggard board, whatever we would call that on the show page if you want to peruse it. But that's the competition for the Empire State Grays here. So they have to have a better second half to avoid being at the top or the bottom of that list, depending on how you sort it. But I'm always interested in stories like these because on the one hand, these players got promoted to a higher level league than they'd ever been in before. So that's super exciting. You're playing against these more accomplished players. You're getting seen. On the other hand, you're losing almost every game and that's got to be rough even if you know what you're getting into coming into it. So I'm pretty fascinated by the Empire State craze and I just had to hear how their season was going. So I talked to Jerry and Eddie Gonzalez, who are the co-owners of the team and also the co-hitting coaches of the team and also the

co-owners along with major leaguer matt joyce of the empire state league which is the little league in upstate new york that most of the players on the empire state grays were pulled from wow i it we spend so much time trying to like quantify the impact of like vibe right like what is the what is the what is it worth to a team to have good sort of cohesion on the roster to have everyone sort of clicking whatever sort of more amorphous understandings of social cohesion within a team we're interested in and you know we think about that mostly in the big league context when teams are doing well, like that this is some unaccounted for skill that they have that is leading them to great glory. But I think we should really be studying the perpetual losers, right?

Because the fact that you're willing to go, just go to work every day. I mean, I know people have to go to work, so it's not as if that isn't a complicating factor, but it's pretty incredible that you're like, okay, it's another day and I am electing to do this again. That's amazing. Right. Yeah, I think it's admirable. And if you thought that your team, if you're a Royals fan or even an A's fan

or a Nationals fan or a Reds fan, you name it. At least they're having a better season than Empire State Grace. So that's something. But they also had higher expectations and more resources and all the rest. One thing I did enjoy on the Empire State Grace website, EmpireStateGrace.com, if you go to the news section, there are a few game stories there. So there's one game story from mid-may that's like gray's drop opening series that's the the headline gray's drop opening series in gateway then there's

one more game story a few days later gray's struggles continue in evansville that was may 19th there is not another game story on the curious website's website until June 26th, more than a month later, when they broke the streak. Oh my gosh. And the headline then is just, strong pitching, seven run seventh, pace Empire State to victory. Nowhere in the game story does it mention that it's their first victory of the season or that they just lost 35 games in a row. Prior to that, it's just like, you know, act like you've been there before.

It's just a standard game story. And look, I don't even know if they have like a full-time social media person or website person. I don't know who is writing these things or whether they even have the bandwidth to write regular game stories. But I was just amused by the fact that they went more than a month of losses without any game story, any news, and then just a routine victory. Just note that nothing significant about this win or anything, you news, and then just a routine victory. Just note that. Nothing significant about this win or anything. You know, just another W in the books. So I enjoyed that.

I do kind of like that they're not, you know, sure, maybe they should mention the context of that win in the rest of the season, but it doesn't sound like they were like, in the best pitching performance you've ever seen. Just like, we got to roll with the punches and accept wins as they come and not make too big of a deal out of them. I love that you're like, hey, feel better, A's fans.

It's like it can always get worse. Yeah, exactly, right. I'm sure the A's are drawing a lot more fans than the Grays as well, so that's something. All right, well, I always enjoy when we can bring you stories from somewhere off the beaten path. As we always say in the intro, this is a baseball podcast, not an MLB podcast.

Although obviously we mostly talk MLB, but when we deviate from that, it's often for a good and fun and interesting reason. And I always enjoy it when we can range far afield, in this case to the Frontier League and the Empire State Grace. So I will be right back with Jerry and Eddie Gonzalez. And I'd like to do it again. Ooh, lying high, holding up last day. Ooh, lying high, holding up last day.

Well, I am joined now by Eddie Gonzalez and Jerry Gonzalez. They are the co-owners of the Empire Professional Baseball League in upstate New York. They are also the co-owners and co-hidden coaches of the Empire State Grays of the Frontier League this season. So welcome, guys. I will introduce these of you separately so that we can get used to your voices, which are somewhat similar. So, Eddie, I guess you'll go first because you're the older brother by a couple of years. So seniority goes to you. Hello, Eddie Gonzalez. Hello. Hello. How are you? Good. And Jerry Gonzalez, welcome also. Thanks for having us.

So I want to talk a little bit about the Empire League and how the Grays got into the Frontier League before we get to this season. So as anyone who knows anything about indie ball knows, there's a lot of turnover and teams and leagues come and go. And so this is, I guess, the origins of the Empire League, because there was a little league called the East Coast Baseball League that folded before it even got started. And then that was replaced by the North Country Baseball League, which played one season in 2015. And then that was replaced in late 2015 by the Empire League, which started play in 2016. And you guys have been involved since the start.

So, Eddie, could you tell me a little bit about how the Empire League came to be? Yeah, there's a lot of misconception about how the Empire League came to be? Yeah, there's a lot of misconception and misunderstanding about how it came to be. People think it was just kind of like a takeover league or, you know, a league that just kind of kept it going for other leagues. And that's not the case at all. The Empire League was totally started from the scratch with, you know, with nothing. league was totally started from the scratch with nothing. We basically, like you mentioned, there was a league in the similar areas and some of the similar towns, and that league folded before it ever even started. A lot of players, coaches, and staff were excited to go be a part of a league, and then when they got to training camp, they were told the league didn't exist. It wasn't happening.

So that league folded. And so one of the owners of that league in upstate New York, or I don't know if he was an owner. He was just a person that was going to be running a franchise in that league. Went in a state of panic and unbelievable. He was just kind of like amazed. Like, man, we put all this time, effort, energy into joining that East Coast Baseball League and it's not happening. And I don't know what to do. And so the guy reached out to me for advice. And I said, listen, I can help you, Rod, manage and operate a league because I know what I'm capable of doing and the people that we

can bring in that could help it. Because he was really he was really in us in like a in a down situation he had a stadium paid for he had tickets sold already for games and and so this is kind of a little bit of how the north country league was born so basically when the league folded and he was disappointed he didn't know what to do he asked me for advice i said i said if you said, since you are already involved and you're going to fund it, if you want to cover the finances of the league, I'll help you run it and make sure that there are games played and an executed season. And so he said, all right, well, I'll do it for one year. I'll do it for one year,

but I know nothing about this industry. I'm just a business guy that runs restaurants. I know nothing about baseball. So he kind of put me in charge as the CEO of the North Country Baseball League. And so I said, all right, this is what you do. You bring in players, coaches, and there was a lot of them available because that previous league never existed, right? So we operated a four-team league called the North Country League. When the league came to an end, he said, thank you so much for this amazing, you know, we executed a four a four team league called the north country league when the league came to an end he said thank you so much for for this amazing you know we executed a great summer but that's all he wanted a part of he he he was not a baseball or baseball business person he just he he he wanted nothing to do with baseball after that year he was he was he just wanted to do it for one season and it was an amazing season many guys got helped get promoted to the pro leagues, right?

These lower level rookie leagues are more developmental leagues. And so the North Country Baseball League was just a one season thing. And it ended once August hit of that year. It was over. And I just felt, man, there's so many kids that need this help and need the services of showcasing and exposure. Because nowadays, they don't take players at the next levels without experience or exposure. It's just the lay of the law. You can't just show up to a stadium and get signed.

So it's all part of a created platform. I wanted to create a platform where we can help teams that are in need of players, but at the same time, we can help players that are hoping to catch on somewhere. And no better way to do it than putting a showcase platform together. And I said, well, let's start something called the Empire League. And since there's no other leagues in the region existing, we'll go and see if maybe one or the two previously used you know locations were available and that type of thing and and it was created totally from scratch so the birth of the empire league happened later that year and we started putting camp showcase camps together to help guys

get picked up and the rest is history the empire was born, which is just a rookie developmental league. It's all it is. It's your typical semi-pro baseball developmental leagues. But it's turned out to play a great role in pro baseball because now we have hundreds of players that we've helped get to the Atlantic League. Believe it or not, it was the last league I thought would sign players, but every year they sign the most players from us. The last league I thought would sign players, but every year they sign the most players from us. That's great. Yeah. And it's an accomplishment just to be able to form a league and keep it going for several years, especially during the pandemic and everything else that has been such a challenge. And Matt Joyce is a co-owner of the league with you also, the longtime major leaguer. How did that come about? So Matt Joyce is a great friend of ours.

Jerry and I went to school with him back since we were, you know, 12 years old. So it's a long life, long life friend who happens to be in the major leagues. And he saw the great success and the greatness that was coming out of helping and how rewarding it was to help all these kids out. And he said, well, I want to step in and help. And he became a strong financial bone for, you know, obviously we don't make a lot of money in this. So he's been a great friend of ours and, you know, he saw how great the operation was going. And he, I mean, he knew we were all involved in baseball. He's playing in the big leagues. We're trying to operate a developmental program. And he said, man, I want to be able to get in. And so we've all been great friends, lifelong friends.

And that's how it all started. You know, at first I was by myself and I was like, I just started it like a crazy man. And Jerry was still playing and Matt was still playing. And as they started to come off in their careers and Jerry, I was like, you got to come on board. And then Matt came on board and a couple of years into it, that's how we established a partnership. And here we are. Yeah. And it's great that you've been able to bring this level of baseball to an area that didn't have it at the time. And I've spent a lot of time there myself as a kid. I was saying before we started recording, my grandmother had a house on a little place called Gull Pond, which is just outside of Tupper Lake.

So I spent a lot of time there as a little kid. And you've got a team there now, the Tupper Lake. So I spent a lot of time there as a little kid and you've got a team there now, the Tupper Lake River Pigs, and you also have teams in Saranac Lake and Plattsburgh and Lion Mountain, that whole area. I know you've had teams in other towns and in New Hampshire at various times too, but it's a four-team league now with all of those teams in New York. And as you mentioned, you guys were both pro ball players yourself. And Eddie, you played for a few years in the Frontier League, which we're about to talk about. And Jerry, you started out in the Angels system, and then you played the Pecos League and the Pacific Association and the

American Association. You were actually with Vallejo and the Pacific Association the year before I was there helping run the Stomper. So we just missed each other. Jerry, when you wrapped up your playing career and you joined Eddie with the Empire League, how did you two divide your duties, or what are your differing responsibilities with the league? Well, we have a specific set of skills that we're both really good at, and I think that all our lives we've worked really well with what I do versus what he does. And, you know, we put our skills together and it was a no brainer for us. You know, we knew that we could be stronger together. So that was just one of the things that, you know, for me was, all right, let's do this.

And, you know, we'll use our skills to make this happen. No sibling rivalry, it sounds like. You guys get along pretty well. No, I mean, I'm a very hands-on type of person. So I'm a go-getter. I'm out there. I hunt down sponsors. I organize leagues.

I hunt down players. And Jerry's very good with player procurement, technological media advances, things that we need. So it's not like it's things that get on each other's way. If not, they're just things that just kind of work together. You know, Major League Baseball may have 30 departments for people to do these name it, and then Jerry's over there making sure our broadcasts are perfect. He's also coaching, and then he's also making sure that all our web media and advertising works that I put into place are being exposed online for people to see how they can contribute or help. We just do a lot of things together with his level of expertise combined with my level of expertise

where it's like we're never stepping on each other's toes. He knows what he needs to do and I do what I need to do so that we can try to help these guys out. But at the same time, we're helping the teams out to have players ready every summer, even though these are shorter seasons. And obviously, COVID kind of slowed everything down a little bit. We are a six-team league. But since COVID, we went back to being a four-team league until we have that freedom again. There were still travel restrictions to Puerto Rico early in the year.

And we used to have Puerto Rico teams that we used to go over there and play and bring tourism and all those things. But we're now going to be based more of a, you know, it's going to be more of an Adirondack-based league. And we're continuing to grow it here. Yeah, it's great that you have complementary skills and approaches. And I know you really have to hustle at that level to make it work. And I know just being in Sonoma in 2015, our general manager is also cooking hot dogs and, you know, checking tickets sold after the game. So you have to do a little bit of everything. That's it. That's it.

And it's the ability to execute that what makes it or break it, you know. Right. So, yeah. So that takes us up to this season. So I know last year I read the Empire League had 34 players who moved to MLB partner leagues during that season, including 10 players who moved from the Empire League to the Frontier League. And I know you've got about a 50 game season in the Empire League and you have longer seasons in some of these other leagues. Your season runs from June to August. So I know that the Southern Illinois Miners, which were a longstanding

Frontier League team, they'd been around since 2007, and their owners retired late last year. And when they did, they took the team with them, they folded. And so the Frontier League was down from 16 teams to 15 teams, needed another one. How did you guys get the call? So apparently, I guess everybody, when you have a good standing league that's been operating for nearly 10 years, like we have in the Empire League, or, you know, seven years at this point, you know, I guess there's something to be said about that. And so I guess there were some folks interested in putting bids on trying to go and be a traveling team. And so through mutual contacts within the system of pro baseball, I was reached out and I said,

listen, there are several people putting in bids and we would like for you to put in a bid as well because we know that you're capable of doing. And so we put, I guess, several people put in bids and ultimately I don't get to choose if we go into the frontier league or not. Right. So somebody voted on it. Uh, they're, they got committees and board of boards of directors and owners and they voted on it. And we just kind of got appointed as the organization that, all right, this organization can come in and they can own and operate a team

in the league so that the league can be even, you know. So we became that 16th franchise of the Frontier League. And this was announced in January. Is that when you found out? Yep, that's when I found out. Right when it was announced, that's when we all find out. Right, okay. And is this just a single season arrangement or is it permanent or is it open-ended

or do you not know yet? No, it's one of those things where, you know, to run a franchise you you probably want a year or longer to prepare for a franchise we we try to do this since january yeah so so it was one of those things where it's just like let's let's do it for now they don't know if a new franchise is going to come onto the league and pay the franchise fees and and all that good stuff and so you know for know, for this year, it was a one year, it's a one year deal, which is why it takes us to everything that's taking place within the league

this year. If it's a one year deal, you know, why would we waste our time, energy and an opportunity in trying to get all these older or what I would consider much older, probably guys with that don't have much of the future left, veteran players to come and be a part of this team when I can utilize this platform to give the young available players up and coming that are required to have experience an opportunity to play and gain that experience, right? And so, you know, we're a young team. We got a bunch of young guys.

You look around our lineup and it's just a bunch of guys that graduated college or have very minimal minor league experience. And we're out there competing and losing three to two, two teams that have three or four major leaguers on the field, triple A guys in the mound, double A guys are all across the lineup. So I think it's the winner of great, a great service for, for these players. Yeah. And it's a real challenge. And Jerry, maybe I'll direct this to you, but I guess, you know, the announcement goes out January 31st, it looks like the Grays' first game is May 4th. So that doesn't leave a lot of time. And I wonder whether you already had players who were signed to play in the Empire League, and you just said, okay, now you're in the Frontier League, or

is this entirely players on the roster who were in the Empire League and you just said, okay, now you're in the Frontier League? Or is this entirely players on the roster who were in the Empire League previously or who were supposed to be in the Empire League entering this season? We definitely had several players that were from the Empire League's previous season, because since we're a summer league, we're still running our camps for the players that are going to be a part of the Empire League. And being late in January, most of the teams in the Frontier League are already made. So the more experienced guys are also already on teams. And visas usually end on January 1st. So when this news happened, we lean more towards our Empire League guys, like Eddie said, to give them that experience so that they can have, you know, a brighter future. And has the composition of the

roster changed much as the season has gone on? Is it still mostly the players who were there at the start or have you brought in others? No, we've brought in other players as well. We're not just randomly picking players from the Empire League and putting them there. We make sure that it's like the best available player, right? So at this level, the Empire League is a very strong developmental program that allows guys to improve. At this level in the Frontier League, we're not trying to improve guys. We're trying to bring the better, more prepared guys that are going to be given a chance to

play and perform. And then it's up to them on how they perform to earn a contract within the league next year. Let's say we're completely done this year. At the very least, we know that 15 or 20 of our guys that have ran through the program will be getting offers next year by all these other teams. And that's a huge win for us. But a lot of guys don't all necessarily come you know there's guys in the empire league that are not prepared already so we still seek out and scout just like any other program and we have to find the best

available uh you know more better experienced guys uh to come in and fill the roles but but what's available to us usually is never that very experienced guy. It's usually that lower-level rookie league or A-ball league guy. The more older veterans don't want to come and be on an all-time road team, so we kind of get turned down on that end. They're like, we let the young guys go on that team. So it's got its challenges, but it's not anything that that stops us from from going out there and playing this beautiful game and giving young man opportunities to excel. And so that's what we do every day.

And you guys have played professionally at various levels yourself. So is it fair to say that the quality of play in the leagues, I mean, is it more of like a, a rookie league level in the empire league and then maybe a baller or somewhere between a and high a in the frontier? Is that roughly what you would say? I guess you've both had experience at various levels. So yeah, the empire league is like a very rookie, almost like a,

you know, a golf coast rookie level league, you know, guys that are, you know, a Gulf Coast rookie level league. You know, guys that are first timers, a lot of first timers. So that's what the league is like. Playing in the Frontier League, that's with major leaguers on the field. It's like a heavy AA level league, you know. So both of you have ridden a lot of buses yourself during your playing careers and stayed in not very glamorous accommodations, I'm sure. How does it compare, though, being a traveling team, which is not a new thing. This happens every now and then when a team gets added to an indie league, but it's got to be tough.

Jerry, I wonder just, you know, having played several seasons professionally yourself, just the idea of constantly being on the road, you know, does the team sleep on the bus a lot of the times? Do they stay at hotels? Like what are the accommodations like and how does that compare to what you experienced yourself as a player? The accommodations are actually very nice. The guys, you know, we're staying in the team hotels that are provided. The one thing that I will say is tough is the long bus rides. I mean, for a lot of guys, you know, we're staying in the team hotels that are provided. The one thing that I will say is tough is the long bus rides. I mean, for a lot of guys, you know, you'll go on a long bus ride, but then you'll come home for, you know, a week or two. So you're pretty rested, you know.

For our guys, you know, they're on the road every single day and the trips can get really long. So sometimes you do have to sleep on the bus on the way to our next destination. So that does has its challenges. It's, you know, it takes a toll on your body, especially when you get, you know, middle of the season here. And it's happened, you know, in the minor leagues as well. You know, one of my teammates back in the Angels was Rob Gronkowski's brother, Gordy. He used to have to sleep on the aisle of the bus because he was so tall. That was the only way he could do it. And he'd get up. I mean, we'd arrive straight to the stadium to play a game and he'd get out of the bus with all kinds of kinks and

muscle problems. And sometimes he wouldn't even be able to play. So, you know, that's kind of one of those challenges where, you know, constantly being on the road can really take a toll on the body. So, I mean, for the accommodations, I think accommodations have been wonderful. The league's done a great job and the opposing teams. It's more just the traveling all the time that really takes a toll on the body. Right. And you don't have a full training staff that's going to give you a great massage before the game, presumably at this level. So it's tough. So what about just the psychology of it? You know, obviously you start with the long losing streak. You're always on the road, the traveling team. I assume the players are excited to get to play in this league when things

start because they're playing against this great competition. They're getting seen by scouts for even higher level leagues, but it's got to be tough to start the season the way that they did. So what was the mood of the team like, I guess, before the first win, which we can talk about too? Well, nobody likes to lose, right? But I believe leadership is the key. And so when you have good leaders that just keep a good clubhouse and you're angry over three or four losses in a row and you come into the clubhouse and you got a leader that's making you think about what's real in the situation making you smile making sure guys are okay every single day day in and day out it keeps a loose clubhouse and it keeps them understanding and engaging where they're not psychologically lost like

why are we losing why are we losing no they where they're not psychologically lost like where are we losing where are we losing no they're they're thoroughly explained daily hey man remember we're out here playing against these high level guys and you guys are we're losing three to two five to four this says more about you than it'll ever say about them beating you that's what was supposed to happen right so these guys keep the right head and it's every day it's like all right we're going tomorrow and we're going again and we're going again and it keeps everybody if everybody's very explained on on the same page from the coaches staff from us on the top to the coaching staff

to the players and everybody involved it keeps these guys happy and that that's exactly what they are they're happy very they're not only happy to be here, but they know it's an opportunity they have to take advantage of, win or lose. And we tell them all the time, I don't care if we go 0-100. I don't care. That's not going to mean anything to me.

What's 0-100 do? What's 100-0 going to do? You still got to go through the playoffs, and then you lose in the semifinals, and nobody cares what your record was, right? But look in in the mirror and what do you do today to help yourself for the future right because our future as a franchise is not guaranteed so why should i care about the future you know it's not like we're the new york yankees and we're gonna be lost out as a franchise over our record right like that's not what's happening here right we can go 100 and 0 and

not be back next year we could go on a 100 and not be back next year. So we want to make sure that our guys are happy and we keep a loose clubhouse and competing every single day. You play the game to win. And I think that's what keeps our guys, you know, in a really good state of mind daily. And your leader with the team is the manager Gil Rondon, who's been around forever, right? He played in the majors himself with the Astros and the White Sox in the 70s. His dad and his uncle played in the majors. You know, he's been around the game and seen everything. But I would imagine that he maybe hasn't seen something quite like this. I don't know. But how has he handled it? He hasn't, but he understands. He sees in front of him you know these great

young men we're we're tending to great young men with low with low experience right it doesn't mean they don't have the talent we have the talent we just don't have the experience so he sees this as a great challenge and and so he goes out there every day and he writes the lineup uh and we all work together on how you know who we're gonna help to help progress and how we're going to do it and, you know, who we're bringing new to the team and all those things. And he just he enjoys the challenge. He's not in it for, you know, the same. He understands. He's not out there trying to get a World Series ring, right?

We're trying to just get one win at a time. And we're trying to help as many young men as we can. And so you guys are in New York right now. The team is in Quebec and is actually playing as we speak. So Jerry, how much time have you guys spent around the team traveling with the team, coaching the team, etc? We've been with the team through the whole thing. Even when we come up here for the Empire League for a day, we're right back down to Albany or wherever the team may be. And we're always there. And the players know that the players see that we spent a tremendous amount of time with a lot of the, like Eddie said, the unexperienced guys trying

to teach them not only the unwritten rules of baseball and profession at this level of baseball, but just mechanics and things that they're lacking in that if a few adjustments are made, you know, they're able to, you know, play at a higher level. But, you know, we're with the team, you know, every series. Right now they're in Canada playing Trey Rivera. And, you know, we're down a couple of runs, but, you know, the guys are realizing the mistakes that they're making when they make them. But at the end of the day, we're with the team all the time.

And they know that when they come back into the States, they'll have us right there for them. We take turns too. Sometimes I go for three or four days or Albaladejo goes for a day or two. Jerry's there with them. So we keep constant coaching and leadership around them. So, you know, it's part of our schedule. It's part of our everyday operation. Including Matt Joyce.

Matt was actually with the team for the Tri-City series that we had. Series, yeah. And, you know, and that's something that, you know, they were very appreciated of because, you know, they get to have his knowledge in there too. Right. Well, I guess he brought them luck then, because they snapped the streak that's right he was there for the first win yeah yeah so i i do want to ask you about that but before you got to that so that was june 25th when the team got its first win against the tri-city valley cats nine to three before that though how many close calls were there? Because there was kind of a

heartbreaking loss, I think, the day before that, right? There was a walk-off. I mean, how close did you come to snapping that streak earlier in the year? Oh, yeah. We've had, I believe it's 12 games where we had a lead going into the eighth or the ninth inning, and we lost. So the league, league when i talked to the league they're like man you're you should have had 14 wins by now you know so we we see it you know they it's crazy that we're competing that well to against these teams but the record says otherwise right the record showed a 0-1-30 record at one point when it should have been a 14 and 15 or 16 you know type of record we got younger less experienced guys so

later later in the bullpen we don't know if guys are coming in and just they're too nervous the stage is too big for them or you know a combination between that and then you know mistakes you know wrong pitches being called wrong pitches being thrown or spots being missed and these hitters at this level don't miss that so you need a curveball in the dirt and you throw a change up belt high that's going to be put into orbit at this level you know so so little things like that will would turn to score around going into the ninth and there we lose the game by one or by two or whatever we get we go through a lot of heartbreaks right so they got to learn they got to understand that man, there's a reason why we are calling specific pitches in a sequence.

If you don't know how to call it yourself as a catcher, some of our younger catchers didn't know how to really pitch call. We had to show them how to do it. They're used to the styles of college and previous ways of calling a game, calling pitches up in the zone when in pro ball, that gets hit out of the park. In pro ball, you need it to be away from the bat, on the dirt. There are certain things that change. And so teaching them that is a huge part of the adjustment.

And then you start making that adjustment. We brought in a catcher that has a little bit more experience in Mondesi's son. We got Paul Mondesi. And so the game calling instantly improved. And, you know, and it results in a couple of wins. And I believe we're up right now. We're winning right now. I'm not sure if we –

No, we're down now, but we got bases loaded with Jordan Scott batting. So, you know, chances there. Yeah, I'm keeping an eye on the play-by-play here. So that first win, 9-3, the starting pitcher was Johnson Arias, right, who is a bit of an older, more experienced guy. He's 28. He had spent some time in the Astros and Orioles system, and he's a hard thrower.

So tell me a little bit about that game, how it went down, and just how huge a relief it was and how you all celebrated that victory. You know, he's a talented young man and obviously he's not as experienced as those guys, but he is one of our most experienced guys. And he had been struggling with his confidence early on. And we told him, you just got to, you know, it's all in your mind. You got to you got to know, believe in what you can do and go out there and do it. And he's all of a sudden bounced back. He's got two – his last two, three performances have been four or five innings

with zero runs allowed, one player of the week. And that's what gives us a chance to win because we know we have a team that will score every single night, whether it's three to ten runs, give your team a chance to play and win, give your team a chance to win. And so what we need is those zeros from the pitching staff. And so he's been able to do that. And he did that night.

Yeah. And Jerry, were you guys there? And if so, what was the mood like? How did everyone feel? And how did you all celebrate? We were all three there. Me, Eddie, and matt were there and you know even to the last out because like you said we've we've uh experienced several heartbreaks

um we took a we scored we had a seven run inning and i believe it was the seventh or eighth um to give us like a nine to two lead and you know even going into that that bottom half of the ninth you know we were playing it like if it was a three to three ball game uh so for us it was you know even going into that that bottom half of the ninth you know we were playing it like if it was a three to three ball game uh so for us it was you know an intense moment and when the last out was made uh on a really close play at home play on a good throw by Jordan Scott from left field uh we definitely celebrated it was a great feeling uh the guys were you know you could just see the smiles in the boys' faces. And, you know, one of the guys was like, I don't even know what to do with my hands right now.

They were so excited. You know, but that's also a testament for, you know, what Eddie said earlier. You know, when we keep their minds right, you know, they were able to bounce back from what was an extremely heartbreaking walk-off loss the night before and followed it up with a victory like that for the first one. It was a great feeling. Yeah. And you guys didn't have to wait long for the second victory because two games later, you beat the New York Boulders 3-2. So you didn't even have time to start another losing streak before you got another win. So that was nice. So what would you say the relative strengths or weaknesses of the team are? Is it stronger offensively, defensively, pitching wise? Where. Our struggles have been pitching, but we're working on trying to make the proper roster moves necessary to bring in maybe one or two more pitchers that can help us out.

And I have to ask about you facing Kumar Rocker, right? Because Rocker faced the Grays in his last appearance before the draft. He was pitching with Tri-City and pitched five games for them, the last of which came against the Grays. He had a good game. So if you were there or you heard the reports, give me the lowdown on Kumar Rocker. What's your scouting report on what you saw

or how he performed against the Grays? Well, I mean, I saw 97, 98. And, you know, we still got got a couple hits and i believe we got a run i believe we got one or two runs off of him but i mean he's he's a tremendous athlete and he's got a bright future ahead he's got challenging stuff that's gonna once he gets drafted he'll go in there and develop even more and we'll we'll probably see him in the show one day. Yeah. He's definitely, you could tell, you know, he's a special player. He's big body, big tall guy with, you know, great mechanics, great skills. One of the things that was good to see from our guys was,

and this goes to answer one of our strengths, is we've had, you know, two of the hits that he gave up were to guys that have zero professional baseball experience. So it shows that those guys right now are in there competing hard against some of the best players that are available right now. And Kumar is one of those top guys, and he definitely has been proving it here in the Frontier League. But we were happy to see what our guys could do with him. So what are your goals, if any, for the rest of the season for the Grays? Is there any target in mind when it comes to record

or is it mostly just about attitude, experience, improvement? No, I believe that you play the game to win and we believe we've got a strong enough team to go out there and probably have a much stronger second half of the season, which we're in the midst of starting. I firmly believe we can go out there and win 20, 25 more games. We've just got to execute the game plan and keep doing what we're doing offensively. Once we improve the pitching, which I believe it will happen,

it will result in more wins. And so we tell the guys to do it one at a time. You know, you don't have to worry about the long-term number. We just need to go out there and win one game, one game at a time, and let's win number three. And little by little, we'll, you know, you win one or two games every, every couple of series, we'll, we'll get there. And are you looking to add reinforcements, maybe as some lower level leagues conclude their seasons, or are you hoping mostly for just improvement from the guys you've already got no it just depends on on our

need it's that's not something we just decide you know randomly we got to see where our holes are if we got a third baseman that's not hitting the ball well we got to bring in someone to see if they can hit the ball well or not playing good defense we We've got to bring them in. But right now, you know, the 10 position players in the roster are playing very good baseball. You know, if they keep playing very good baseball, they're not going to go anywhere. They're not the reason we're losing games. You know, we keep losing games because we're up 2-0, 3-0,

and then we give up a five-run inning, you know, when we're out on defense. And, again, it's the pitching. It's 100% pitching that needs to improve. And until we do that, we're not going to get the result we want. Is one of the difficult things, just because this is a brand new team and because you don't play in a home park with a home crowd, I mean, are there fans of the Empire State Graves? Are there people, I guess, other than friends and family of the players who are following the season, pulling for the season?

Yeah, we're winning. We're winning the hearts of fans. Yeah, we're going almost everywhere stadium we go to. There's fans that root for us. They see us losing heartbreaking games and everywhere we go, we got some fans, random fans that just show up from the state of New York. So and then, of course, you got the families and everything else. But yeah, I mean, there's some support, some fan support, and they're rooting for us. They see that we are true underdogs, right?

It's not just a road team. It's not a road team that had an expanded draft selection. Or when there's a new expansion, you have an expansion draft or none of that. No, there's no expansion draft for us. all the players are gone and taken by the time we get to put a roster together we have to we have to use you know what's available you know the best players younger players that we're going to give opportunity to but then the free agents that are available are your less experienced guys right and so you know we we had to put the best roster together for what's available and those experienced guys don and so you know we we had to put the best roster together for what's available and those experienced guys don't want to come they're not going to want to

really come be on a travel team so yeah you know we just it is what it is we have to go out and and not make excuses and just just compete and play the game and and uh and have a great time doing it yeah and i believe the fans uh you at least our fans, are enjoying that and are rooting for us. I'm pretty sure that the merchandise that just came out is pretty much sold out by now. So that should say a lot. Yeah. And do you guys have broadcasts for yourselves? Or is it just the other team is doing the broadcast and people can follow that from afar or do you have your own crew? No, that's, uh, we don't have, we don't have a road

broadcast team. So people, people follow us and tune into whatever home broadcast we were at every single night. Got it. And can you give people a sense of say how the salaries, how the pay compares in the frontier league to the empire league Empire League? You know, you don't go to your these leagues to get rich as an owner or a player. But what's kind of the rough range that players might expect to make? And I guess that is higher in the Frontier League than it would be in the Empire League. Oh, no, there's these are very low level leagues. And if in the Empire League, players don't come here for yearly salaries. It doesn't work that way.

We provide housing so that they don't have to pay $2,000 in a New York apartment. We provide opportunity at weekly finances so that everybody has meals. We load up their houses and housing with food. Then they get paid an additional stipend. They, you know, they'll make a couple hundred bucks at the end of it. When you get into these, you know, real leagues, professional leagues, then there's actual salaries. And so in the Frontier League, the minimum wages is, I believe it starts at a thousand

and it goes up to almost 3000 based on experience and all that good stuff. So we just, guys that get into, to the frontier league, they, they get into those salaries and they get paid the rookie pay. And that's, that's pretty much it. And Jerry, I asked Eddie this, but do you have any hopes for the rest of the season or goals or things you're expecting to see? You know, I'm a big believer in just, you wake up in the morning and you get get yourself ready to go no matter what it is, what's happened in the past. You can't control the past. But for me, you know, I have high hopes for my guys because, you know, the guys' attitudes and their drive is there. And I believe that every day we're coming out to play

baseball and I'm watching every single pitch of every game, including the game that's happening right now while I'm talking to you. And, you know, I'm rooting for my guys. And I think our guys are going to do very well, like Eddie said, in the second half. They're going to compete. They're going to give it their all. And I'm with Eddie on this. We're looking to win 20, 25, 30 games, you know, as many games as possible.

And I wake up every single day, you know, thinking to myself, our guys are going to go out there and they're going to get after it. So I'm in my mind, I want win every game. But you know, in reality, you know, it's baseball and with the attitudes and and what we got right now, I'm just hoping to take a day by day and and go from there. Well, you're almost at the halfway point of the season, a little bit more to go and I guess guess 50-plus games remaining on the schedule. So as you said, it's easy to root for. I'll be pulling for you. I think a lot of our listeners will be too. So just before we go, tell us a little bit about where people can find out more info, either on the Grays or on the Empire League.

Where can they get that merch you mentioned? Anything you want to plug or promote, please do. Yeah, so we do have a website. It's EmpireStateGrace.com. Grace is spelled with an E. And right there, there's a shop link that you can click on. It'll take you right there to where the merchandise is. We got dry fit t-shirts, hoodies, hats.

Everything is on the website there. You can see everything about each player every time we bring in anybody it's all there and you know we try to put as much stuff as we can there and then of course our social medias are empire state grace on all of them twitter facebook instagram empire st grace is actually the um the app you know for it and they can follow us they can see what we're doing um you know we like to post you know nothing but positive stuff as, as we're an extremely positive team. And, you know, the fans that see us, they come out and see us every day. They see that. So all this guy's information is there on our websites and on our social media. So that's where everybody can kind of go and check us out.

All right. Well, thanks so much to both of you for your time. And we wish you the best with the Grays and with the Empire League as well. So we've been speaking to Jerry and Eddie Gonzalez. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thanks for having us. All right. I'll leave you with a few final notes here. First, a few of you wrote in about the Cardinals' four consecutive home runs over the weekend. Nolan Arnado, Nolan Gorman, Juan Yepez, and Dylan Carlson hit four straight

dingers. This was widely described as back-to-back-to-back-to-back home runs, but as we hashed out recently in a How Can You Not Be Pedantic About Baseball segment, we would prefer a different terminology. Meg and I were puzzling this out earlier. We were actually picturing the players lining up and how we would describe them, I believe that this should be back to back, belly to belly, back to back. That would be the correct configuration if you line them up all in a row. Although, of course, there are configurations where you could have four players with their backs all touching, but usually I think we're thinking of it all in a line. So we don't have to specify this often. This was only the 11th time in Major League

history or ALNL history that a team hit four consecutive homers. But whenever, if ever, this should pop up again, back to back, belly to belly, back to back. Another follow-up, Ben Clemens, the other Ben of Fangraph's fame, he wrote about something that we discussed on an email episode, episode 1866, where listener Thomas wrote in to wonder why, in an era when we've seen so many season-long team home run records be broken, we have not seen the single game team home run records fall as often. The most home runs ever hit in a game is still 10 hit by the Blue Jays in 1987 on September 14th, and only four teams have set new single-game home run records since the ball got really lively in 2015.

We supplied a few possible reasons why this might be, but our main takeaway was that there's just a lot of randomness when it comes to one game, that there have been a lot of games played, and that even if you had a deader ball, you just play so many games, things might line up in such a way that you might just hit a bunch of dingers on a single day, as the Cardinals did when they were going back to back and belly to belly and back to back. So Ben came up with some fancy simulations and he ran them and he found out that, in fact, that randomness is sufficient to explain what we have seen here. He notes that it's no coincidence that the Diamondbacks, the Padres, and the Mets are a few of the teams that have set new single-game home run records, and they don't have histories that are as long as some teams. And it basically just comes down to the fact that if you

have a really long history and you've played a ton of games, that just outweighs the fact that you have played fewer games more recently with a higher league home run rate. So that seems to be all it is. Ben compares it to a finance maxim from his former finance life. It's not about timing the market, it's about time in the market. So he concludes, why aren't teams setting more home run records? It's not because they aren't hitting the ball out of the park left to right, or because this isn't a perfect era for new home run records. It's just time in the market. Play enough games and something weird will happen. Frequently, something so weird that it could take decades or even a century to replicate. Lastly, I will wish a happy 28th birthday to Shohei Otani, one of our favorites here, and while I'm wishing people happy birthday, I will also shout out listener Ryan Gunther,

who just turned 24, and his friend Ananya asked if we could give him a birthday hello. Not something we do often, but why not today? So Ryan is from Ottawa. His favorite player is Mike Trout and his favorite team is the Blue Jays. Happy birthday, Ryan. Though he turned 24 on June 30th, so he does not, in fact, share a birthday with Shohei Otani. Actually, as I look at the leaderboard entering Tuesday's games, Trout and Otani are tied atop the baseball reference war leaderboard. How appropriate. All right, that will do it. I will remind everyone, as I did on our last episode, that our 10th anniversary is coming up. We'll be doing 10th anniversary themed episodes the week of July 17th.

So just a couple of weeks to go. And we are soliciting listener testimonials. If the podcast has meant something to you, if you have enjoyed it, if it has brought some solace to your life in some way, then we would love to include a clip of you saying so and explaining why or how. Just introduce yourself and give us a brief message about why you enjoy the podcast or what it's meant to you. You can record it on your phone or whatever you have on hand. Audio only is fine. Listeners have meant a lot to the podcast, and that's why we want to incorporate your voices in some of those celebrations. So please keep it to 30 seconds and get those in

if you can by, let's say, July 15th. Let's aim for them. But some listeners have already started sending those in and we really appreciate it. You can also support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay ad-free aside from our StatHead sponsorship, and get themselves access to some perks. Thomas Leslie, Nathan Kruger, Matthew Neer, Jesse R., and Jonah Bernhardt. Thanks to all of you. Jonah Bernhardt, no relation to, actually spelled differently from, Holden Bernhardt and Locke Bernhardt, who have pitched this season for the Empire State Grays and actually pitch pretty well. As friend of the show Adam Durowski of Baseball Reference joked on Twitter,

this pitching staff is two parts Bernhardt and 26 parts Hart-Bern. Oof. Our Patreon supporters get access to monthly bonus episodes hosted by yours truly and Meg, as well as access to the aforementioned Patreon Discord group, discounts on t-shirts, playoff live streams, and more. Thank you. You can follow Effectively Wild on Twitter at EWPod, and you can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash Effectively Wild. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with another episode a little later this week. Talk to you talking. Back to back, belly to belly.

Don't give a damn, damn dead already. Back to back, belly to belly at the zombie jamboree.