Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1900: Triple Frown

Episode Date: September 9, 2022

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the late Queen Elizabeth II’s first baseball game, the latest on Joey Meneses and Juan Soto (and on Soto being booed!), an Albert Pujols/Willians Astudillo fun fact, a Mets/Yankees first-place race update, additional thoughts on Aaron Judge and Shohei Ohtani, Paul Goldschmidt and the traditional Triple Crown vs. […]

Do you gotta be a queen all your life? Are you gonna take that crown off your head? Yeah, yeah, yeah Are you ever gonna come to bed? Do you gotta be a queen on your life Hello and welcome to episode 1900 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Raleigh of Fangraphs. Hello, Meg. How are you? I'm well. How are you?

I'm doing well, although we just learned before we started recording that Queen Elizabeth has died. Long-time monarch and naked gun star. I'm not laughing because death is funny. I'm laughing because when we were getting ready to record, I was like, Whoa, Queen Elizabeth died. That's neither here nor there. And then you were like, no, we got it. It's here.

Yeah. Wow. Apparently. We started the last episode with toilet flappers, so this is not any more off topic than that. I suppose. But anyway, the queen is dead. Long live the king. Anyway.

Oh, man. Monarchy is weird. Monarchy is bad. Like, what was just reading an account of the Queen's first baseball game. Oh, tie this back. OK, I was like, tenuously not going to do a whole retrospective of the 70 year reign here. But I was looking back at the first baseball game because, of course, her character is at a baseball game in The Naked Gun. She was not actually there in that movie, but she did attend a baseball game a few years later. So I'm reading a story from the UPI archives.

May 15th, 1991, headline, Queen attends her first baseball game. And she attended a Baltimore Orioles-Oakland Athletics game. And she was in the company of President Bush, the first one. And it says, the queen, dressed more appropriately for an evening affair, in her below-the-knee blue and red dress, black gloves, and three strands of pearls, stood in the Orioles dugout along the third baseline in a receiving line with husband Prince Philip, also RIP, the president and Mrs. Bush. The first lady wore a blue and white floral print dress. So now we know what everyone was wearing, or at least the women in the party. I guess no one cared what Bush was wearing or what Prince Philip was wearing. So they met the teams and it was apparently sort of a strange scene because it

says, while the honored guests took their dugout positions designated with their names on three by five cards, the song Brown Eyed Girl blared over the Memorial Stadium public address system and their images were flashed on a giant video screen in right center field. I've been playing baseball for 10 years and I'm used to a normal atmosphere, said Orioles shortstop Cal Ripken Jr. after his four handshakes. This is a lot different. There's a lot of excitement. A's manager Tony La Russa, some things never change, Tony La Russa, then and now a manager,

although on medical leave himself right now, he said the players were told to be natural while meeting the dignitaries. And apparently some of them may have taken that too far. Jose Canseco was chewing gum while shaking hands with royalty. And the royalty was protected by bulletproof glass to the side and five police officers on the roof just in the event of a naked gun style scenario. So she shook hands. She smiled. She greeted each team member. That's a lot of baseball players. Bush introduced her to Cal Ripken Sr. She chatted with him for a while. And then they went onto the field in foul territory. They waved to the crowd for a while. And then they went and sat in the mezzanine level box of then Orioles owner Eli Jacobs. And scorecards were waiting for them on their black leather cushion seats.

Although it does not say whether the queen kept score. I would imagine that because this was her first baseball game, probably not. Probably not. Yeah. was her first baseball game? Probably not. Probably not. Yeah. Well, I guess if she ever had to install her own flapper and she had been looking at instructions and they said, I might need a baseball size one, she could say, hey, I know what that looks like. She would know. She probably touched a baseball that day. She was 65 years old by the time she attended her first baseball game. And she had a monitor near her so she could

watch on there as well. And Prince Philip had field glasses, so he whipped those out when there was a close play at the plate so he could get a better look. And meanwhile, there were some protesters advocating a reunited Ireland who were there hanging signs and Orioles ushers were trying to take down the signs. Now, interestingly, they left after only two innings. Now, we talked the other day about what constitutes a visit to a ballpark, right? And we said that in order for it to count, you have to be there for a ballgame. And we sort of suggested that you have to be there probably for most of the game, ideally, at least for a ball game. And we sort of suggested that you have to be there probably for

most of the game, ideally, at least for an official game. Someone asked us, what if you take a ballpark tour on a day when there's no game? Does that count as visiting the ballpark? I guess maybe so. That's sort of a technicality, as long as you're there for baseball related reasons. But they departed after just two innings. So can we say that they really visited Memorial Stadium? I guess they got the behind-the-scenes tour. They got to go in the dugout with the bulletproof glass, but they didn't see the whole ballgame. Yeah, I feel like it doesn't count,

particularly if you're someone who's lived for approximately one million years. Like what slice of your life is that even? Yeah, right, Not a lot. And Dick Cheney was there. Faye Vincent, then the commissioner of MLB, was there. Apparently, Bush told Faye Vincent that the queen wanted to come to a ballgame, and he suggested Baltimore. I don't know why. I guess it was close to DC, probably. Yeah, probably that. No Nats at that point. Right.

But there were some gifts exchanged. So the Orioles owner presented the queen with gifts for her six grandchildren, regulation-sized bats for each child with their names inscribed on them. Wow. I guess that's nice. Yeah. She dined before the game in the dugout lounge with, like of Oriol's management apparently and the story mentions that she declined to eat during the reception but did drink a martini according to a waitress who worked the event I think that you know I understand why the prevalence of say martinis or or what have you

is is less pervasive in ballparks because you know once you hit the hard hooch people can get really rowdy but i would be sure nice to just be able to sit and drink a good good martini the ballpark i know that sounds bougie and it probably is but it's like it would be nice to sit there although i gotta say there are really good margaritas at jay's field i've come to to discover. Yeah. I'm sort of surprised that she had not attended a baseball game before then. 1991. I mean, she'd been queen for a very long time by that point.

She'd been visiting the U.S. for decades. I think her first visit to the U.S. was in the late 50s when baseball was even more pervasive. Yeah. So how do you not take in the national pastime if you're a visiting monarch at that point? How many trips did she make snubbing baseball until finally attending? But maybe it was the naked gun that inspired her to go to a baseball game. Maybe. Like I might as well actually go. It could be.

Yeah, it could be. You just don't ever know. Anyway, RIP to a baseball queen, technically, even if for only two innings. Oh, boy. Oh, boy, Ben. You know? So I meant to start this episode by discussing a baseball king, Joey Manessis, who has continued to hit pretty well. He had a three for five day recently.

Then he had another multi-hit day with a couple doubles. And then he had a big RBI on Wednesday. So Joey Manessis just continuing to do Joey Manessis things. Not really slumping so far. I did mention in my article that Manessis sort of rhymes with regresses, but he hasn't fully so far. And in fact, I don't know whether we started this, whether baseball broadcasts are taking their cues from Effectively Wild, but I have seen and people have tagged me in multiple screenshots of baseball broadcasts that since we first started talking about Joey Manessis versus Juan Soto since the trade, they have used graphics like on a Bally's broadcast and on a network. At least I've seen head to head comparisons of Manessis versus Soto since the trade deadline or since that trade. So I don't know. Maybe we're setting the agenda here.

Maybe other people have just picked up on this. But someone actually set our conversation the other day during his walk off to to the video of his walk-off and put it on YouTube. So that was fun. But he's kind of kept it up even since then. He is still easily outpacing superstar Juan Soto. And as long as that lasts, I will continue to provide updates on it. Well, and isn't Juan Soto dinged up a little bit now? Is he maybe dinged up a little bit still?

He is, right. And he has been dinged by boos from the Padres faithful. Really? I don't know if you saw this. Yeah, even before he suffered an actual injury, he was suffering the slings and arrows of Padres fans. And we talked recently about booing and whether it actually ever makes sense on any level, even if

it kind of can be cathartic at times and feels good. Like, does it actually serve its intended purpose? If your purpose is to motivate your players to play better, does it maybe just demoralize them? Right. This seems to me like pathological booing behavior to be booing Juan Soto this early in his Padres tenure. I get that things have not gone the way that Padres fans have wanted them to go, although the Brewers are kind of falling behind. So they're looking OK wildcard wise right now. But since that trade, I think they're 16 and 16, right?

And I think on the day that they booed, they had a losing record since the trade. And obviously, other trades have not gone well. Josh Hader has not been great. fan right now but like is that the kind of welcome you want to give Juan Soto I know he has been slumping lately and has not been just burning up the place since he got there but like he has a 130 WRC plus right since he got to San Diego he's almost on basing 400 like I get that the average isn't great and he hasn't hit for much power but like he's still been a fairly productive player and just just bide your time like you will get to see the good one soto and maybe don't make your first impression or an early impression be booing him especially if you want him to stick around for a long time although i guess maybe they don't because they think he's a bum because he hasn't hit up to his usual level so far.

I'm just saying, like, give the man some time. Come on. I think it's probably going to be fine. I mean, we should say, San Diego fans, if Juan Soto does not sign either an extension or just a regular old free agent deal with the Padres, I don't think you booing him is going to be, like, the reason that that happened. But, you know, I think that it is a bit reactionary it feels like a displacement of a frustration that they probably are more genuinely experiencing with say fernando tatis jr or josh hater and like i don't think josh bell has hit particularly great since coming over right but like? But those guys are either not on the field because they're suspended and have recently had surgery,

or they're not Juan Soto. They're not the Juan Soto deal. They're not the guys who were described as blockbuster. I mean, Hader was, I guess, to a lesser extent. But the big deadline move was Soto. to a little bit a lesser extent but like the big deadline move was soto and so i imagine that he is a high profile and convenient receptacle of a more displaced prospects to get him yeah more a more displaced frustration that they may be feeling but you're right to say that you know as it stands even though they are in that final wild card spot in the nl like milwaukee is four

games back of them now so it's not impossible but the odds are getting longer you know they're getting longer some right yeah and he changed his walk-up song to california love i don't know if it was in response to the booing if he is trying to engender some california love or show that he has love for california despite the booze and he very much took it in stride. He said, I know they are almost as frustrated as me, so I understand what they are doing. They are fans. They want you to be successful. Now, sometimes it isn't going to happen all the time, but we just got to take it like a champ and keep going, etc., etc.

So he was very understanding. He said, I bet they don't want to pay for a ticket to come watch the team lose. So I'm telling you, they probably feel a little tough right now. So given that he has handled it well, I guess no one's going to say Juan Soto can't handle San Diego unless he continues to slump. But yeah, I would wait a little while before booing Juan Soto. Yeah. An eternity, probably. But he said he was not feeling any pressure to perform. He said the challenge is just going from a team that doesn't care about anything because they know they don't go anywhere to a team that has a really good chance to win a World

Series. That changes everything from one day to another. And he said, it's just been a crazy wild year. Really different. It just happens. A lot of new coaches in Dc a lot of new players new styles then coming in here i'm not going to blame it on anything else i'm just trying my best that things haven't been going my way it's been kind of tough but i know i'm gonna get hot in a really good moment and i'm sure he will and then he will be cheered and all will be forgotten yeah though i Although, I don't know. I feel like I would still remember it because part of it is like people saying he never got booed with the Nationals.

I don't know if he literally never got booed, but I guess not to this extent or not that anyone remembers. So maybe that would stick in my mind. I don't think it would govern my decision about where I want to play for the next 10 or 15 years. No. But it's not a warm reception, I suppose. It's not. Although I will say, and I want to be very careful to make clear that I am not, meaning this is a dig at Nationals fans now, it is not a disinterested reception, right?

One way to interpret this is like, they're so passionate and they want us to win so badly that they will boo when they are not satisfied and it suggests an engagement with the the fate of the team that again while i think is sort of misplaced given some of the padres other problems is not like you know uninspiring right it's nice to be in a place where where they care you'd like it to be cheering based but you know yeah well the nationals have fan favorite joey manessas and the padres have temporary fan least favorite juan soto but the padres are in playoff position and the nationals just became the first team to be eliminated from playoff contention. So it all kind of evens out, I suppose. I also wanted to mention a tweet that some people sent me. This was from Wednesday,

and it was tweeted by Jim Passon, Passon Jim on Twitter. And he noted a fun fact about a couple of legends. Active players with more extra base hits than strikeouts in their career, minimum 50 plate appearances. First, Albert Pujols, 1,394 extra base hits and 1,391 strikeouts. Second, Williams Astadillo, 39 extra base hits, 28 strikeouts. So, yeah, I would say Pujols is in pretty good company there. And I would also draw people's attention to Williams-Estadillo's minor league line this year because he has spent most of the season, sadly, with the AAA affiliate of the Marlins and not the marlins themselves but in his triple a playing time which is a pretty substantial more than 240 plate appearances he has a 942 ops he's hitting 315 376 566 with a five percent strikeout rate and even fewer walks and actually some pop so call the man up. I say let him hit more extra base hits without striking out.

Yeah, I'm here for it. All right. Also, since we spoke last, I guess there have been some developments with the New York teams with the first place New York team watch. So the Rays and Braves both won on Wednesday, but the Yankees and Mets both won twice. They had double headers and they swept their doubleheaders. The Yankees lineup was pretty depleted, but fortunately for them, they were playing the Twins, which has tended to go pretty well for the Yankees over the past two decades. And so they remain in first place. The Mets briefly were in a tie with the Braves, which was a first since like mid-April. So that was notable, although I guess technically maybe the Mets have the tiebreaker. So I suppose if you want to go down to that level, they were still sort of in pole position there. tiny sliver of a lead here and they have lost Max Scherzer and they have lost Starling Marte

seemingly not to severe injuries that will cost them a ton of time but at least day-to-day in Marte's case and Scherzer is on the IL for at least a brief stint right now so that's semi concerning I suppose but I just want to say this is not the same thing as the Yankees losing a lot of their lead in that division because the Mets have not played badly. No, they haven't. Not at all. Like if you go back to June 2nd, let's say the Braves have the best record in baseball. They are 62 and 24, which is even better than the 61 and 25 Dodgers since then. The Mets have the sixth best record or the sixth most wins over that time, 52 and 34. So it's not that the Mets have blown it. It's just that the Braves have played like the best team in baseball since then. So I think we do have to distinguish a little bit because, yes, like if the M game division lead, then have another team either tie or overtake them for first at some point. So that's notable. That's not a list that you want to be on. But it's that the Braves are on like a beat-the-all-time-win-record pace

since that time, since the start of June. So it's not so much a case of the Mets coughing it up, which they have been known to do at times. But I think if they ultimately do finish behind the Braves, which is still up in the air, obviously, I think we could put this in a different category from collapse. Yes, agreed. Overtaken.

Yeah, it takes, you know, in some ways, it's a lot like the AL MVP race, Ben, where, you know, it would take something remarkable to displace a season where a player might set a new home run record, right? Right. It might even take something amazing. It doesn't mean that the record isn't impressive. I'm not saying Ohtani is the MVP.

I'm just making loose comparisons that we can think about and get emails over. Yeah, right. I knew there was a reason I picked June 2nd. That was when the Mets had their maximum 10 and a half game lead. So that wasn't just a totally arbitrary point, only semi-arbitrary. I meant to mention, by the way, that if you were in suspense about what happened in that A's Orioles game that Queen Elizabeth saw the first two innings of, the A's won 6-3, which is perhaps not surprising given that the A's were a winning team that year, although not a great team, and the Orioles were a pretty lousy team that year. So they won 6-3, and by the time Queen Elizabeth left, it was 1-0 A's, and I think they never lost the lead. So I guess she didn't miss any lead changes, and that must have been some consolation to her, I'm sure. I meant to mention also, because you brought up Otani and Judge. So we had another day, another Judge Homer and another Otani Homer. And at this rate, it seems like Judge is just

going to end the suspense by the end of next week. He's hitting Homers every day. So on this pace, he'll be at 60 or more in no time. We will see. It's kind of amazing that he is still hitting them because no one else on the Yankees has been hitting. The stats I've seen are somewhat shocking, like Judge's WRC plus compared to the rest of the teams. It's like the rest of the team has suffered a complete offensive outage and Judge has been completely, totally tearing it up over a month or more at this point. So you kind of wonder. He's officially on pace for 65 home runs. Yep.

It's pretty great. And also the first 200 WRC plus season since Barry Bonds, which should not go unnoticed. Not only is he hitting tons of homers, but he's having just a better overall offensive season than most of the players who did hit 60 homers. So it's impressive even compared to that group. But it's kind of amazing that he is getting any pitches to hit.

I know that he has been intentionally walked. Sometimes he is leading the majors with 14, but given how unreal he's been lately and just how much of a mirage the yankees offense as a whole has been lately it's it's getting to the point where it's like do you actually ever want to give judge a pitch to hit which would endanger his overall offensive numbers and and also his pace if he were not getting pitches to hit or if he were starting to go outside the zone because he wants to break the record or he's putting the team on his back and putting pressure on himself and might lose a little discipline. You could argue that maybe he should sacrifice a little discipline when no one else on the team is hitting.

So I think he has seen fewer pitches in the strike zone as time has gone on, but he's still getting enough that he's hitting a homer a day. So that is maybe a surprising aspect of this, that he is not just being pitched around to such an extent that it would make it hard for him to get to any kind of record threshold. Yeah, it's just, it's a really remarkable thing again we don't have to belabor the point of Aaron judge but we'll belabor it for a second longer I mean it's like there there are so many ways to be impressive in a way that resonates with people who aren't analytically inclined when they're thinking about how they understand baseball and then there are so many ways to be impressive where a person who views the game through an analytical lens will be like wow and then there's what Aaron Judge is doing which is satisfying both constituencies I think to

to largely equal measure right like he's as of today when we're recording this on Thursday at 11 12 a.m my time like he's hitting above 300. He's got all these home runs. He's going to probably break some records. He's, you know, he's doing all of that while also, you know, hitting for a two or three WRC plus while playing like credible defense in center field while getting on base all the time, not necessarily always via intentional walk, as you noted. He's not even really striking out that much. He's just putting together this case

that is bulletproof, but for the existence of Joey O'Donoghue. He's 16 stolen bases for Pete's sake. He's doing all this stuff, Ben. He's got all these RBI. And again, that's not surprising given the rest of it it's not surprising that his resume via the advanced metrics and his resume via the traditional stats

are lining up and reinforcing one another of course they are like the one thing implies the other thing and vice versa but sometimes you get a bigger divide right where you have to say no like look at how great he is but the i guess this is one of the advantages of hitters, right? Because you're not having to worry about FIP. Really, this is all about how we have to worry about FIP too much. Where it's like, oh, no, no, no, he's really good. It's just that his defense stinks. We don't have to worry about that because he's a hitter.

How nice. And then Otani doesn't really have to worry about it either because he's a hitter how nice and then you know otani doesn't really have to worry about it either because he's also amazing so anyway this is just me making noises about two really great players yeah we got an email just now from listener garrett who wrote in to say that one way to resolve the dilemma about which player to give the mvp award to which again doesn't need to be a dilemma for anyone except those 30 voters. We can just think they're both amazing. But he suggested that we could create a new designation called the Indisputably Astonishing Player Award so that they could both win that or whichever one did not win the MVP would win that. But as I pointed out, that kind of already exists.

There is something called the Historic Achievement Award that the commissioner hands out. And Shohei Otani won it last year already. So that doesn't help us. They don't give those things out every year. It was the first one that Manfred had awarded. It was the first one since 2014. And Otani won it. He obviously had some historic achievements.

So maybe he can win it in back-to-back seasons. And that can be some consolation for him if he misses out on the MVP award. But I brought them up. It's hard not to talk about them these days. But I wanted to say that we've talked about that race. We've talked about the NL MVP race and the neck-and-neck Goldschmidt-Arenado war battle, although there are a couple of players not far behind them at this point. I did want to say, by the way, I'm not into triple crowns anymore, and I don't want to

sound like a stereotypical stat head who's just dumping on RBI. I mean, yes, obviously, it's not exactly a hot take at this point. But what Goldschmidt's doing is really impressive. I don't know that his potentially winning the MVP award really moves the needle for me that much. Like, I love baseball history, and there's been a lot of reference for the Triple Crown in baseball history. And in 2012, when Miggy won it, it was kind of cool. It wasn't cool to the extent that I thought he should win the MVP award over Mike Trout, but no one had won it since 67. So it was like, oh, wow, look at this. This is like a relic

of an earlier era. Miguel Cabrera, you can still win Triple Crowns. That meant something. Now it's been 10 years since Miggie did it. And if Goldschmidt does it, it's just, it doesn't mean that much to me. It means a lot to me that he's hitting the way he is. And he's leading the majors or qualified hitters in batting average, and he's leading in RBI in the National League. And he's like, what, one off the home run lead? Something like that? Something like that yeah so he may very well do it but it's just sort of a silly thing because like we don't care much about rbi anymore and often we don't even know who wins the batting title or who wins the rbi crown

or title or whatever you call that and so the fact that he might do those things in concert with each other and with a home run crown, I don't know that that really enhances it to me that much. Like if we have collectively decided that RBI, okay, let's keep tracking them just to be consistent, but we don't pay that much attention to them. We don't use them as a means of evaluation so much. So why, as part of the Triple Crown, should we? Just out of deference to tradition, I suppose. Yeah. There is something that is sometimes referred to as the sabermetric Triple Crown, which is winning the slash stats, and he is currently leading the National League in all of the slash stats. So that's something, sabermetric, triple crown, kind of meaningful, especially because not only have we discounted

this in defense of RBI, but also there's a lot of overlap. If you are the batting title winner and the home run leader, you're a pretty good hitter. And you're probably hitting in the middle of the order. And you're probably racking up a bunch of RBI. Obviously, it's dependent on who's hitting in front of you and who's on base and timing and all of that. But like, if you tell me that so-and-so is the batting title winner and the home run leader, the additional fact that he's the RBI leader, that's a shrug.

It's like, OK, I guess that's sort of expected given the other two things. Given the other stuff. Yeah. And you could say that about the sabermetric triple crown too, because obviously batting average is a big component of on-base percentage and slugging percentage. But you could at least have someone who wins one of those things without being close to winning the other things. wins one of those things without being close to winning the other things. They do measure different abilities, right? Like RBI measures your clutchness in that season, I suppose, your timing. But like batting average doesn't guarantee that you walk a lot, that you get on base in other ways.

It doesn't guarantee that you hit for power. So knowing that someone has the highest batting average and on base percentage and slugging percentage that tells you a lot about that player and each additional thing tells you a lot about that player because like even if you win the batting title to win the obp title you still probably have to walk a good deal and get on base via other means and even if you have a high batting average to lead in slugging percentage, you still have to hit a ton of dingers. Whereas knowing that someone has a high batting average

and has the most homers, the additional fact of also they have the most RBI, that doesn't tell you that much more, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think that it tells you as much more as people assume it does given the reverence with which we hold it but mostly it's like well yeah of course because look at all the other stuff he's doing you know yeah he's just an incredible he's just an incredible hitter yeah we just get to appreciate him being like a really incredible hitter it's pretty it's a good season he's having

ben it's a great you know yeah and the Cardinals never lose anymore. So we have talked about both of the MVP races, and we've talked a little bit about the AL Cy Young race, I suppose. We haven't talked much about the NL Cy Young race because it sort of has seemed like Alcantara has had that sewn up for a while, although depending on

which war you look at and which pitching stats you look at not necessarily all right but just because he has the innings lead in the low era it seems like he's been the presumptive front runner for a while but again like there's time to talk about those things but what we have maybe overlooked a little is the rookie of the year race in both leagues and i know you have a vote in the nl i'm kind of i'm kind of ham strong hand cut yeah i've been shoved into a locker are you not allowed to discuss it at all or are you just not allowed to to discuss whom you're voting for which you may not even know at this point i don't know who i'm voting for okay i don't think you're allowed

to talk about who you're voting for in advance i think that we can talk about their relative merits but i'm going to tread very carefully because i don't want to get a mean email i don't want to be stripped of my voting rights i don't want to be boosted out of the bbwa i got i got trouble to to cause in the association. Yeah, I don't want to get you in trouble. I have proposals, Ben. I have some proposals. So, you know, I got to make those.

Okay, yeah, keep your powder dry for that. But the point is that both of those races, regardless of who ultimately wins, really close. Like just as close as the other awards races we've been talking about. At least going by Fangraphs, where it's neck and neck in both leagues and they're both fun races. And again, like we can just say, they're all great.

It's like Matt Kemp's old tweet that Sam loves so much about the Hall of Fame, where he just said, put them all in. They should all be in. Put them all in. In the AL, you have Julio and you have adley rutschman yeah who are almost indistinguishable according to fangraphs war yeah and then in the nl you have a couple of atlanta rookies you got a you got a couple of guys hanging out in atlanta hit and pitcher, take your pick. Spencer Strider and Michael Harris II.

And again, very little daylight between them and fan graphs war, maybe a tad more in baseball reference war. So Rodriguez and Rutschman, Harris and Strider. Strider, who is memorably listed on the A's broadcast this week as a way pitchershortname in brackets. Those are just fun players on fun teams and also players who I think for the most part are very promising. So they're not in the genre of rookie who's having a good season, but you don't know whether they're actually a good player. And it's like, well, we could still vote for them for rookie of the year, but it might look a little weird decades down the road when if their careers didn't pan out. People don't have a lot of concerns about Julio and Rutschman long term.

And obviously the Braves don't have concerns about Michael Harris II because they just locked him up for a long time. And Spencer Strider, really good as well. So hopefully we will be watching and enjoying these players for a long time but just fun races on fun teams and like players who have helped revitalize those teams like yeah strider and harris have been so big for the braves this year rutschman really turned around the oriole season i don't want to say single-handedly but like look at baltimore before and after. Yeah. He definitely played a big role. Yeah. And then you have Julio.

Who is Julio? Julio. Another guy who his team just made a big long-term bet on. So love them all. I don't have to vote. I don't have a vote. So I don't have to make any difficult decisions. But it's just kind of fun to contemplate. So like pretty much all the

major awards this year, I don't know that there's like an obvious shoe-in in most of them. And there's some really intriguing debates and discussions if you're someone who likes to have those. So here's a little question for you, Ben. I want to make sure that my understanding of the rules around this stuff are accurate. So I'm given to understand that per the new collective bargaining agreement, if Rutschman places in the top two, he will receive a year of service time, right? He'll be credited for a full year of service time, despite not being up in time for that. He'll be credited for a full year of service time, despite not being up in time for that. But because he was not up on opening day, the Orioles are not eligible to receive a draft pick to reward them for his immediate promotion.

Is that understanding correct? Okay, so quoting from a piece from our pal Evan Drellick, teams who promote players in time to receive a full year of service, which is 172 days, so opening day or very shortly thereafter, have a chance at additional picks in the amateur draft. So the Orioles didn't do that and perhaps couldn't do that because Rutchman was hurt at the start of the season. Right. But then he was down in AAA for a while after he returned from injury, some of which I imagine was him rehabbing and some of which was probably not. with a full year of service, even if they were promoted too late on the calendar to otherwise have received it if they finish in the top two in Rookie of the Year voting in their league. So yes, I think that's right. And Retchman seems like a cinch to be top two. Right. And he would have been, I mean, he was obviously, even if he wasn't the number one prospect for every publication, was a top prospect in the publications that they're looking to, which I think is BA, ESPN, and maybe something else. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Family.com probably. Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, interesting. That like dynamic is sort of interesting in that race. Again, like I think you are right to say that this is like a two person race and the service time stuff doesn't matter when it comes to Julio because he has this massive contract. So he's sorted. And so you have that like a wrinkle around Rutschman. And then in the NL race, much to my relief, because of when Strider was promoted, which was quite early,

he was probably, I imagine he was on the opening day roster for Atlanta even. Yeah. And then Michael Harris, the second extension, like that dynamic doesn't really matter there as much, which made me very nervous and then was alleviated. So thanks, everybody. But yeah, it's just like a lot of good young players. Jeremy Pena really fell off, didn't he?

Yes, very much so. Yeah. He's been batting ninth a lot of good young players. Jeremy Pena really fell off, didn't he? Yes, very much so. He's been batting ninth a lot lately. He started so well. He looked so good. I guess this is a case of the league adjusting. I have not looked into the specifics, but yeah. Yeah, it might be time for someone at Fangraphs.com to take a peek under the hood at Jeremy Pena and be like, what happened to you, Jeremy Pena?

And then, of course, Kraya is better than Jeremy Pena and be like, what happened to you, Jeremy Pena? And then, of course... Yeah, I think Carlos Correa is better than Jeremy Pena, at least right now. At least right now. You know, long careers and what have you, but at least right now. And we would be remiss, or at least I would be if we did not point out that just like, man, Stephen Kwan, what a cool thing.

What a cool thing for Stephen Kwan. What a year. What a year. Anyway, that's me appreciating Stephen Kwan. I'm surprised he has even three home runs. for Stephen Kwan. What a year. What a year. Anyway, that's me appreciating Stephen Kwan. I'm surprised he has even three home runs. Don't remember a single one of those, but my website tells me that he has hit three, so good for him. Yeah, I will be really curious to see how people try to define the Julio versus Adley thing and sort that out. Because, you know, there is a contingent of voters who do care quite a bit about, like,

sort of how long you've done the thing. But, you know, you're right to say, like, when you have, like, two points of WRC plus difference between them, I'm surprised that Rutschman does as well as he does by baseball reference war. Yeah, because no framing. They don't include framing. So, yeah, look at that i mean he is he is very good defensively you know in other ways it's not

just the framing but i'm just surprised given that they don't include that that he has managed to to stack up as as well as he has but yeah rutschman, man. Good for him. He's had the opposite trajectory of Pena because he started slow and then picked up and he just looks like a veteran big leaguer. Granted, he's like coming up on 25. Sure. So, you know, catchers sometimes take longer to develop and to come up. Oh, and he was a college guy. Yeah, a college guy and maybe left down longer than he had to be. But he just, he looks great just like

completely well-rounded player and to hit what he's hitting 257 364 453 to do that in this offensive environment and in that offensive environment in camden yeah which because of the fence change yeah has been much less of a hitter's park and particularly tough on right handed hitters and he is taking most of particularly tough on right-handed hitters. And he is taking most of his plate appearances left-handed against righties. He's a switch hitter. And so against righties as a lefty, he has a 901 OPS. Against lefties as a righty, he has a 543 OPS.

Now, the latter split is just 88 plate appearances in the majors this year. Yeah. I wouldn't make too much of that. It's interesting because if he really did have trouble hitting lefties compounded by that park, which is really hard for righty hitters now with the fence the way it is. Yes. Then I guess down the road, he could potentially be a candidate to specialize and stop switch hitting and just hit lefty, take advantage of the park and maybe his stronger side. But too soon to say. Yeah. I think he's hit lefties okay before

and with a still getting established player who means so much to that franchise, obviously you want him to be an everyday player, preferably. So you'd give him every chance to be. Yeah. But just sort of suggestive. Saw Jeremy Frank point that out on Twitter the other day. Regardless, to have hit that well in this season, in that park, as a rookie, while handling all of the staff working with pitchers, concerns, and just learning the league, not just as a hitter, but as a catcher, it's pretty impressive. He just looks great he looks great have you have you spent much time watching him like as he is catching because yeah oh ben it's so it's so fun oh man i'm having a great time i've just been having the best time watching adley ratchman catch it's just really you know it turns out the prospect folks know what they're talking about when it comes to Adley Richman. He's really good at that. So it's sure fun to just be like, oh, look at the way he's just the softest, most, it's just such beautiful framing.

It is, right. And the arm on that guy, pretty good too. Yeah. And that's something where if they were to sign him to a julio length extension or try to he's older than julio but if they were to sign him long term they would have to consider yes whether he will retain that value over the course of that contract because you know robot umps are almost certainly coming in some form during his career so whether it will be in a challenge system way that would allow him to preserve at least some framing value.

My preferred mechanism. Right. Or whether they wipe that out entirely. Like that might make a pretty significant difference to your valuation of Hadley Rutschman over the course of a decade or more. Right. So they would have to factor in the chances of that happening in the form that it would take. And he's still a really good player, even if you took that away. But that is an added dimension because it's such a luxury really to have a good hitting catcher. understandably catchers can't hit often in many cases and they make up that value elsewhere but when you don't have to make up that value when you're just adding to your already robust offensive value because you're good at everything well then you are superstar material and he is basically

playing at that level and just being mature and a team leader and all of that definitely the type of player that you want to build around just like the mariners are with julio so yep i don't know good luck to ale rookie of the year voters trying to choose between those two yeah i guess you can't go wrong but also you can't really go right definitively either so it's a tough one this is how i feel about my voting i don't know what to do ben i don't know what to do although i will say the following you know i don't think it's gonna i don't think it's gonna happen because the gap is like two wins i'm gonna just keep talking about al rookies because

then i don't have to grapple with how much i can say about the nl stuff you know who's been really good as an al rookie ge George Kirby, you know? Yeah. George Kirby, he sure is good, you know? We should spend a moment being like, hey, look at you, George Kirby, in your 105.2 innings and 2.4 war. Good for you. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think he will vulture any votes from Julio for the award probably. I don't think so. But he has been very good. Yeah, that's the thing with the NL MVP vote. And maybe also like if anyone else has a prayer with the NL MVP vote, I guess it would be that there's some vote splitting

that goes on with Arnauto and Goldschmidt. But hard to imagine one of those players not winning at this point. I know Rookie's been great and other players have been really great too. But yeah, and I don't know with the NL Rookie of the Year vote, I don't know that anyone is close to Strider and Harris at this point that there would be any danger of someone sneaking in if Strider and Harris were to split the vote somehow. I don't know how big an issue vote splitting in

award votes actually is with players on the same team anyway. But it is interesting that they're playing head to head. So you can't even split those players by like quality of competition or something. Or like, you know, weaker, stronger division. Or like one of them's on a playoff team and the other isn't if you wanted to go by that. They're just both on the same team, Ben. Dependently on the same team. They do very different things on those teams. They hit and they pitch.

And one guy catches and the other guy plays outfield in the AL. So they're differentiating factors here. Those guys are on different teams. But yeah, that's tough. You take away the team element of tiebreaker also. So it's hard to find any daylight between them so good luck to you thanks yeah it's a you know it's a it's an honor to have a vote and it's something that i feel a great deal of stress about particularly because it is a hard choice and

i want to do right by the guys who are playing so well you know it's very pressure packed i don't know anyone who doesn't take voting seriously it doesn't mean that everybody's process is a process i would describe as good and it doesn't mean that i always agree with the votes that are cast but i do think it's something that people generally take pretty seriously because yeah if nothing else boy do you get emails. I'm going to get emails. Yes. I'm going to get some emails. But here is a thought that occurred to me. Let's assume that things continue as they are

and the obvious, if difficult, choices between these two guys who are on the same team. I'm probably not getting angry emails from Atlanta fans. I guess that's the good news. They went either way yeah and they get to enjoy these two great young players uh both now and and long into the future so isn't everyone winning except the person who doesn't yes i guess you could say that about a lot of things but yes do you think i've done enough to not get an angry email from Larry Stone about talking about my award vote?

Do you think I've been sufficiently vague? I mean, I'll talk about it once. Yeah, I look forward to when you're at liberty to discuss it and you can walk through the rationale that you ultimately apply. Right. Yeah, and we've got a few weeks left for one player to edge ahead of the other and make your decision a little easier. So we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. we'll see we'll see we'll see what we see you know famously as we started this episode those uh those those folks down in atlanta playing pretty well so yeah so i've got a bunch of emails and we can

save most of them for next time probably but maybe we can get a couple here under the wire here's a question that maybe pertains to something we were just talking about. We were talking about Carlos Correa briefly. And Peter in Los Angeles, who is a Twins fan, asked us about something related to Carlos Correa. He says, one story has been batting around in my head since the trade deadline. How or why was Carlos Correa involved in deciding whom to trade at the deadline? As reported by the Beat Writers, Correa seemingly had multiple conversations with the front office surrounding who to trade and solidly put his foot down on trading rookie Jose Miranda. Two things stick out to me, Peter in Los Angeles.

Peter in Los Angeles I've never heard any other player seemingly involved in front office decisions much less a for hire player like Correa as opposed to a team's long term veteran like Pujols or Cabrera are there other recent examples of this at all secondly what if there was a war calculation

for players assisting the front office Correa hasn't hit that much of late but Miranda has put himself in the rookie of the year conversation not the one one we just had. If behind players like Julio Rodriguez and Bobby Witt Jr. We didn't even mention Bobby Witt Jr. And while the twins are stumbling, Miranda is keeping them in contention. Should we consider Correa in part responsible for Miranda's war total with the twins. And this does seem like a semi-unusual thing. This was reported. So twins beat writer Doyon Park for MLB.com, he says,

Kars Correa says that much like he was in Houston, he's had, quote, good conversations with the twins' front office about the club's needs at the trade deadline. This was tweeted on July 26th. He says they asked for his input and he brings up players to them who he thinks could help the Twins. And then there was an MLB.com story about this by the same author who said that he was just stumping for keeping Miranda. He said Correa had a wish list but declined to share the details of that list out of respect for his teammates. I imagine that would be a bit awkward if he's like, let's go get a player at this position. That other guy's just current player sort of sucks.

Yeah. In fact, he noted that he'd actually been talking about reliever Jorge Lopez with Rocco Baldelli on Monday night, hours before the twins secured the right-hander in a deal with the Orioles on Tuesday morning. Correa said on Tuesday that he had another element of motivation on his agenda to beg is new to the team and perhaps temporary with the team if he opts out to be consulted so much. And especially if it's a two-way thing and he's not just volunteering his takes but is actually being asked for his opinions. I don't know that I can think of another obvious example. I don't know that I can think of another obvious example. Like there are definitely times where players will like call out the front office and be like, you should do more. And they'll do that publicly at times. And perhaps lighting a little fire under him and maybe helping make the Justin Verlander trade happen. So there's that kind of thing. But that was just sort of him offering his opinion on that. lot to the team and the city and the organization and is like the leader of the clubhouse and you

want to make sure that it would be a fit personality wise then you might run it by that player or or if a player has played with a player you were interested in acquiring before you might ask about the personality the things that don't show up in the stat line that sort of thing but for a player like Correa to be actively involved in discussions it does seem a little unusual yeah I am I don't want to like impute in the reporting like involved in discussions like I guess we don't really know the true depth of that right but it is surprising you know if I were a Twins fan I would I would allow myself even if it proves not to be true, that this is an indication that he's not going to opt out or he's going to sign a big extension with them. And they know that and he knows that and it's not done yet, but they've sort of agreed in principle.

And so, yeah, be involved in the next era, great era of Twins baseball. But I don't know that we have anything that suggests that other than me saying to Twins fans, treat yourself and think something nice, even if it proves to not be true. It could just be that they think that he has a really keen sense of who's good. He's a smart baseball guy, seemingly. It might just be that they're like, hey, you notice stuff when you play. What have you noticed? That could be possible, I possible i suppose yeah he has someone who will talk about advanced stats a lot and he'll reference looking at baseball savant and exit speeds and expected weighted on base and wrc plus and that sort of thing so i guess he sort of speaks the language of the front office and maybe that might make certain front office members more

inclined to consult him, even if it's casually. But we don't have a way to account for this or to give Correa a fraction of Jorge Lopez's twins war or Jose Miranda's twins war. So this is just something that we have to keep in mind. I guess maybe it's an extra contribution. It's like when a JD Martinez type is said to maybe have almost become an extra coach, right, and maybe have helped fix some swings or something. Like, if there were a way to give war for that, then maybe we could. Like, would you take it away from the player who is actually producing that value though that's thorny solution so i don't know what you would do but it's it's extra value that in some players cases might not be captured by the stats and and that's what you might point to if if you're someone who says oh the war can't capture everything well one thing might be intangibles and, that could just be leadership and motivation and clubhouse culture and everything. Or it could be like, literally, I said we should go get this player and we did. So that's extra value. Or I showed this player

something he was doing wrong with his mechanics and now he got better. That's extra value too. So some players do offer that it's just uh pretty tough to quantify in a portion credit yeah i think that it isn't something that makes any real sense to formalize into war as a metric but i think that when you talk about those sort of intangible non-production related things like you can say yeah this guy has a really useful perspective and it helps us to refine our own evaluations of players both on our on our team and on others and you know it is weird to talk to Correa about that stuff insofar as like he is not a forever twin at this point that's a funny you know we should have we should when we have teams that are named after people like sometimes that stuff sounds really funny

like forever twin you know but he is obviously invested in the twins winning this year right like it's not like he's working at cross purposes with the organization he wants them to win this year you know his own if they are winning and he gets to play deep into the playoffs, like it continues to bolster his, you know, his case and free agency, assuming he does opt out, which I think we all think he will do.

So yeah, maybe there's like Carlos Cruz, a smart guy, and he notices stuff and it helps us to refine our evals. And he's an important voice in the clubhouse now, even if we're not sure that he's going to be here next year. So it's unusual but i guess i'm i'm talking myself into being less surprised i think if i were a front office person

i would just be like hey what do you think about guys you know let's just talk about baseball because you you know you're famously good at that so let's talk about it yeah although you do have to navigate the interpersonal issues of like well let's not make it look like another player on the team controls the fates of their teammates and that we're deferring to the star. I mean, look, stars, they get special circumstances and sometimes they do have a bigger say, but also it would be kind of awkward if it was like, Carlos Correa is calling the shots here. I'm sure it's not actually that, but it does occur to me that maybe the fact that he is perhaps temporary might make his judgment less clouded.

I don't know that this would be why they would talk to him, but because he is a new addition, so it's not like he came up with a bunch of players who are in that clubhouse and he's attached to them and he would want to keep them around for sentimental reasons. Right. Yeah. In some ways, him being potentially mercenary might be useful to you in getting a clearer evaluation. Yeah. And because he's not thinking, I'm going to be here for the next decade and I don't want to play with that guy or I do want to play with this guy, he might not be thinking of it from that personal, selfish perspective. He might be looking at it more from that mercenary perspective that I guess front offices might employ in some senses. So assuming he's not thinking like, huh, I won't be on the Twins next year. And so I'll have to play Jose Miranda when he's on the Twins. I guess he doesn't know where he'll be. so he might end up playing Jose Miranda no matter where Jose Miranda is. But yeah, that might actually make him more inclined to provide just a unbalanced, just kind of cold calculating evaluation of what actually makes the twins better for now. Although then again, he might not consider the long-term, although I guess he is in

Jose Miranda's case because he's thinking ahead to the value that Jose Miranda will provide long term. But otherwise, he might be thinking, hey, trade all your prospects because I'm opting out. So let's just trade the whole farm system, go get some veterans, win me a ring while I'm here, and then I'll leave and it won't be my problem that you just dealt away the entire farm system. So I guess that could go either way. Right. But the thing is, like, he doesn't have, he's just making suggestions, right? He's just making arguments. Like, it's not like he has any real say. And so, you know, clearly they evaluated some of his claims and were like, no. And, you know, maybe they liked others. yeah but yeah i guess that is kind of it is

interesting it's interesting when stories like that make their way to the beat writers because like clearly carlos cray is talking about this but that's the kind of thing that sometimes you know you don't hear about until after a player has opted out but then signed with that team again and then you look back and you're like, when did you know that you wanted to bring back Carlos Correa? And they're like, well, one of the things was that he was talking to us about the trade deadline. So it's just interesting how those get sequenced

and how they make their way to all the happy beats. I'm sort of surprised it came out at all, I guess. Maybe it's the front office leaking it so that if their deadline moves backfire, everyone blames Carlos Correa and then he leaves. And it's like, well, it wasn't our fault. Carlos Correa made us do it. And now he's gone. So scapegoat him. Anyway, there was a brawl this week.

There was benches clearing between Baltimore and Toronto. Yeah. Some unwritten rules flare ups. And we got a question from Patreon supporter E-May, who said, I know the pod is generally anti old school rules and pro let the kids play.

But are there any unwritten rules that either of you supports? That is no bunting with the sole purpose of breaking up a no hitter, perfect game, or you actually support retaliating

against opposing players if your team was plunked first etc is there anything that is vaguely unwritten rules adjacent that you find yourself sympathizing with because for the most part yeah i am like this doesn't make much sense or maybe it makes sense from the perspective of the player who is saying it. Sam's all day about how many unwritten rules are there basically to gain a competitive advantage for the team that is protesting. Yes. But for fans, I do think most of them are fairly silly. So I have been racking my brain a bit just trying to come up with anything that resembles an unwritten rule that I'm on board with. And I guess one, I don't know if this even rises to the level of unwritten rule, but like

not forfeiting, which is an unwritten rule at this point, right? That's a spicy take, Ben. That's kind of spicy. I like not forfeiting. Oh, you like not forfeiting? I like not forfeiting. Yes. Oh, I thought you were going to say people should forfeit more and i was gonna be like spicy but uh i gotcha i guess that would be going against the unwritten rule because there's an unwritten rule against not forfeiting or against forfeiting right this is very confusing you're very confusing i'm sorry i made it i i

gummed up the works spectacularly here if there were no unwritten rule then teams would probably be forfeiting because they are already kind of stealth forfeiting by putting in position player pitchers all the time. Do I agree with that? Do I agree that they would do it if there weren't an unwritten rule? I still think they wouldn't do it, Ben. I don't know. The position player pitching has gotten so pervasive. Yeah, that's true.

And essentially that is what you're doing at that point. You are conceding the loss. Like there's never a time where you put in a position player pitcher in a blowout and then the team comes back to win generally doesn't even get that close. There have been times in extra innings when you're really down to your last player and you have to use a position player pitcher and sometimes they've even gotten the win. But like in the usual position player pitching situation the game's out of hand and everyone knows it's out of hand but they're just playing out the string because well unwritten rule

probably so yeah we have talked about like analytically does it make sense to forfeit and i think you could argue that it does but teams at least so far have abided by that unwritten rule, and I am in favor of that. I don't want to start seeing forfeits. I also don't want to see as many position player pitchers as we are seeing, so I'd like that rule to be made more strict, but I am preferring, I think, playing out the string in sort of a silly way and arguably a senseless way. I prefer that to not playing and just saying, OK, go home. It's over just because, you know, you pay for your your full regulation game. And I think you should get that and honor Finn's commitment to coming out to the park and staying around to see it. Yeah, I still think that like I don't think we'd see it a lot no i suppose

competitiveness is its own social convention so saying that like these guys are just so competitive that they're not going to do that is isn't really saying anything different than there's an unwritten rule that you don't forfeit but i still think that it would not i don't know how would you even say that it would not, I don't know. How would you even say, how would you even reverse that? How would you, anyway. Are there ones that I secretly agree with? I think, well, speaking of that particular benches clearing incident,

and I will also say, like, I wasn't paying super close attention at the time that this happened. I had this game on, but I wasn't paying super close attention. So, like, I am kind of taking it on faith that Vladimir Guerrero's account of the interaction between Brian Baker and Teoscar Hernandez on that night is like how it happened. So maybe that's wrong.

I don't know. Like maybe there was jawing back and forth more than Vlad is like either aware of or acknowledging here. That possibility exists, I suppose. But I generally am pro like celebrating i think that like bat flips are fine and i think that you know being pumped up when you like walk off the mound because you struck the guy out in a big moment like that's fine like if you want to

pound your chest and say let's go like you should do that because that's yeah it's fun and we have talked before about sort of like where is that line between it being celebratory and if and like joyful and being you know you being a little jerk basically like where's that where's that line for being right you know dancing on someone's grave just like making them feel extra bad yeah so you know, Vlad was asked about that interaction afterward, and this is Arden's Wellings' accounting of it. He's a sports snack guy. So again, like this is state media, I suppose. But here's

what Vlad said. When Hernandez hit the ground ball double play on the way back, Baker was staring at him and said something to him. Then when Hernandez got to the dugout, he said he wasn't sure exactly what he was saying, but he definitely was saying something. Then when he struck out Chapman, he stared at us in the dugout. He was looking and he was saying something. And that's when everything happened. You can enjoy the moment. We understand that. If you strike somebody out, you can celebrate. But when you

stare at the person, it's kind of disrespectful. I mean, I don't know. Maybe you think you're a superhero or something, whatever it is. But yeah, it did cross the line. Before, he's pitched good innings against us, and he enjoyed the moment. He celebrated. But he's never stared at the dugout. And we believe if you're looking at the dugout, you want problems. You want us to react. And I'm sure that there are bits of this that we could push on and try to tease out more specifically.

But I feel like this is a good, this feels like a good standard to me right this is like articulating well the difference between hey like you you did great and you celebrated and that's totally within your right like you know it's not like guerrero hasn't been known to bat flip right if anyone knows you know having big celebratory feelings it's going to be him but this this seemed to draw this seemed like a good differentiation to me between like being a being celebratory and kind of venturing more into like thumbing your nose in your opponent thumbing your finger in your opponent's nose what is this expression you don't want to put your don't put your finger in anyone else's nose no don't do that don't do

that that is that's i don't even think an unwritten rule. I think that that's just like understood as an actual rule. Yeah, but also don't thumb your nose. What does that even look like when one thumbs one's nose? Have you done that? I cannot say I've thumbed my nose at someone or that someone's nose has been thumbed at me. Do they mean it literally like you're like kind of making like a little, like you're making yourself into like having a little pig nose you know like you're holding up your nose so that you're right right is that what it is

i guess i don't you're like you're gonna get some email that the etymology of this is like horrifying and like rooted in no i hope that yeah i hope that i don't know what it means i don't know but anyway leave your thumb and your nose out of it, I think, generally. And your tongue, don't stick your tongue out either. Right. And it's funny because then there's don't get your nose bent out of shape. So maybe the nose is like the, maybe that's the key to this whole thing. Maybe if you thumb your nose too hard, it gets bent out of shape.

And certainly if you're thumbing someone else's nose, it might gets bent out of shape and certainly if you're if you're thumbing someone else's nose might get bent out of shape anyway i just think that like this felt like a good articulation to me of like the difference right like celebrate yes like sometimes you're gonna like you're gonna strike us out you're gonna stick it to us that is you doing your job well you get to celebrate that but if you're doing this other thing you are being you're being kind of disrespectful and then we're going to react to that because now it's not about you having this triumphant moment it's about you being rude to us specifically then it's about it being directed to us rather than you know sort of this dispersion dispersal of of joy and i think

that that's a good distinction to draw. So I don't know if that's me, like, actually taking a controversial unwritten rule stand. I think that I just, you know, appreciated this articulation of it because I thought it was good. Yeah. I would be wary of that if I were a player. Like, I absolutely support players' expressions of happiness and joy and elation at their success. But I would be walking on eggshells, I feel like, if I were on the field because I would not want to make someone feel bad, which is probably one of the many reasons why I'm not a competitive professional athlete is that I would be that concerned about someone else's feelings. So

not that they have no consideration for other people's feelings, but they have a high competitive drive and intensity that maybe I lack at least in that arena. Well, and I think it's reasonable to feel a little nervous about how people are going to interpret that behavior because there are so many people who are unwritten rules enthusiasts, right? And so for them, the distinction we're drawing isn't even the relevant distinction right it's like any kind of celebration is you asking for the business right and that's we are submitting that there is a difference perhaps a nose related difference yeah anyway so there's that i think thumbing one's nose definitely does involve wiggling one's fingers sure it seems to be an inextricable part like add them or you know like holding your your fingers

and wiggling which apparently is also referred to as cocking a snook to cock a snook this is another weirdly british episode yeah that has to be that has to be british right cocking a snook this is another weirdly british episode yeah that has to be that has to be british right cocking a snook like there's no way that someone who's not from like strathfield on avon didn't come up with that yes yeah oh no now i'm doing voices we've gone to a very dark place i guess here's a here's a thing i'm not into and i don't know if this is an unwritten rule but there is like we are socially permissive about this i think there's too much spitting and leaving of trash okay is that an unwritten rule that you are allowed to spit and or leave your trash behind or is that just you know social it is a social convention right yeah

absolutely so no one's going ew why you do that i think that i think there should be less spitting in on the field is one thing right like if you're out you know you're you're an outfielder and you're waiting for a pitch to be delivered and one of the things you do to pass the time is to spit, that's fine because you're spitting into the grass. You're not near anybody. There's been a lot of spit-related controversy lately, Ben, and I don't understand it in a pop culture setting. I am given to understand that there's movie-related spit drama

involving one of the good Chrises. And I don't understand what's going on with that movie. movie-related spit drama involving one of the good Chris's. And I don't understand what's going on with that movie. There's a little explainer on TheRinger.com by Katie Baker if you want to catch up. Of course there is. I should have known. I should have just gone right there. Of course there is that.

But I think that in the dugout when they're spitting and they're leaving all their trash around. And another thing, Ben. and they're leaving all their trash around. And another thing, Ben, I was watching the Yankees game yesterday against one of the Yankees games against the very Minnesota Twins who employ Carlos Correa. And Aaron Boone had one of those little mini water bottles.

He had one of the little baby plastic water bottles of water. I don't think we should have those either. Or was it just a regular-sized bottle that looked baby bottle because it was aaron judge no it was aaron boone it was aaron boone okay he's not mammoth in the same way he's not a giant no he's just you know he's just a baseball manager i mean i'm he's like i'm sure a tall guy because baseball players tend to be and he used to be one of those but no it was not a not Aaron Judge. It was just Aaron Boone, a normal-sized man, at least in baseball-adjusted terms. And so he had one of those little mini ones,

and not the little tiny baby mini ones that they give you at a Senate judiciary hearing where it's like, what is this even? This is like two gulps of water. No, it was like the mid-sized mini one. Anyway, I spent a lot of the last couple days hearing about the yankees water bottle giveaway and i was like somebody go get one of those and give it to aaron boone because this feels like an inefficient water delivery mechanism like that's

like not a get him a refillable anyway sort of trash related i think there's too much gross trash in dugouts and it's not really my business because i don't have to work there but like somebody has to clean that up like some person has to go through and be like i gotta get this like mix of gum and chew and seeds off the ground and that seems gross to me also doesn't it get stuck in their spikes sometime don't you think they end up with stuff in their spikes so yeah so you wish there were an unwritten rule against that yeah this one i'm i'm advocating i'm either advocating for a new unwritten rule or i am advocating that the unwritten rule that is socially permissive in this way would change

and everyone would say hey now spit in the trash i, some baseball players are like really good spitters. Yeah. You know, they can get the big long arcing spit and they can get that little tiny bit of spit right on the tip of their tongues that they just perfectly spit away from them. It's just a tiny little ball of white spit and it goes away.

And I'm like, yeah, it's incredible. I'd have that stuff. I'd get it all over myself. So I, you know, maybe they just enjoy their skill. Yeah. But I think that it's gross and we should change it. The only other ones I can think of are, and this is sort of in the same genre,

not showing up your fielders. If you're a pitcher and your fielder makes an error, I'm on board with that one. That just seems like common courtesy. You know, of course, you're upset that your fielder made a mistake behind you and maybe you thought you were getting out of a jam or now you're in a jam when you weren't before. But never a good look when the pitcher makes an ostentatious display of being peeved about that, right? Like when they show via their facial expressions or their gesticulations that, oh, they should have had that one and you're hanging me out to dry here. They're hanging out their fielders to dry. Like your fielder

feels bad about that already. So to the extent that there's an unwritten rule against doing that, I'm on board with that one. The only other one that's kind of controversial to approve of, I guess, is, and this dates back more to my childhood fandom when I cared more about rivalries, inter-team rivalries, and felt that in a more emotional way. But at that time, way but at that time i kind of disliked players fraternizing on the field in a very friendly way like players on opposing teams well yeah i guess it's not enforced but it is a written rule it's in the rule book that they're not supposed to fraternize either with spectators or players of other teams while in uniform it True. Which is like what? It's got to be an anti-labor organizing kind of a thing.

And also they don't want people to fight. Is that what it is? Yeah. Could be either of those things. Probably. Could be other things. I don't know whether it's to preserve, to keep up appearances for the fans of this being a hard fought battle. But I kind of like as like a kid, especially like as a fan, like if I was rooting for the Yankees and it's like a Yankees Red Sox rivalry.

And sometimes those teams genuinely did not seem to like each other at times. But like when the fans are like super into the rivalry and then the players are just joking around, like that is a healthy thing probably. just joking around like that is a healthy thing probably and yet there was a part of me that wanted them to kind of keep kayfabe in a way in like a wrestling sense and sort of like maintain the illusion that like yes this is a real rivalry and thank you for explaining what that means to me a person who doesn't know about wrestling and just to like kind of maintain the illusion that like they care as much about this as the fans do. I mean, they do. In some ways they care more about it than the fans do,

but like also they are more philosophical about it and they play many, many games and they take losses in stride, whereas fans blow them out of proportion. And so if you see like your player is like laughing and joking with, and it's not any time, like often it's really fun to see a base runner like just joking with the first baseman or something on the other team. Like a lot of that's great. And I feel sort of silly even expressing any modest approval of this because like generally I want players to be happy and get along.

want players to be happy and get along and it's like and i like like at the all-star game when it's an exhibition and everyone's just hanging out and having a great time together and like their kids are there and they're just snapping photos of each other like i love that so i like the fact that this is a fraternity for now and that like players get along and they are commonly bonded and everything so it's sort of silly, but there was a part of me, and I'm sure a lot of fans still feel this to some extent, where it's like, in a way, you almost feel silly about caring so much or about rooting against the other team as much as you're rooting for your team when it's clear that these guys get along. There's probably not any real bad blood.

Like, yeah, they want to win, but they don't like hate the other team's guts, you know, like sometimes they do at least for a while. But a lot of times they don't. And that's like good. There's part of me that's like, that's good. They should be like friendly and not hate each other and not like pretend to hate each other either. And not hate each other and not like pretend to hate each other either. But there was some small part of me just as a fan where I was like, let me believe that like the players feel the same way about this game and this team that I do. At least like while the game's going on, you know, like when it's out of sight, when the game is over, do whatever you want to do like there was a whole big kerfuffle about this recently that i heard about on stephen fatsis's afterball on the most recent edition of slate's sports podcast hang up and listen where

there was like a a big thing between soccer teams in europe where like american players who were on opposing sides of the teams like the the firm derby, it's called, in Wales. And there was a photograph of them taken after this hard-fought rivalry game, and they were dining together. And everyone was upset, up in arms about them being on a friendly basis after this game with the Rangers, not the Texas Rangers, not the New York Rangers, the Rangers in this league. And I think it came out that they were eating with like the USA national team coach who was like trying to make decisions about who's going to be on the USA national team. So that's why they were eating together, but people were upset about that. So that sort of thing is

still very real, I think, even if it's silly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that more than, well, you know, there's plenty of camaraderie across teams in other sports. I feel like the fact that baseball isn't a contact sport makes it a lot easier for guys on different teams to be like, hey, you know, that is nice because they're not banging into each other on purpose. So I think it makes it easier. But it's nice when they get along.

It's nice when they seem to have genuine admiration for each other, if only because it provides an actual contrasting backdrop to the times when things get kind of spicy. Yeah, right. Then when guys don't get along and there's real agitation actual contrasting sort of backdrop to the times when things get kind of spicy yeah right you know then when guys don't get along and there's you know there's real agitation when there are thumbs and noses you're like wow it's really genuine because the rest of the time they're all kind of getting along and laughing so yeah and they're probably modeling good fan behavior here because you don't have to hate the other team in order to pull for your team. Although there are times when you kind of do like, yeah, not in a way that you're gonna like riot or, or like attack someone on the team that you don't like, or even jeer them necessarily. But just like, you know, bearing some low stakes animosity, temporary animosity toward them i think that's okay i think that's like a healthy enough expression of anger if you're not like actually taking it out in some bad way so i think like

generally it's okay it's good not to have hatred in your heart but also like it's kind of a part of fandom like you bear a grudge against the team that you want your team to beat. And so part of that is punctured, maybe, by them just sort of joshing around during the game, at least. I don't know. It's sort of silly, but that came to mind. All right. Let's end with the past blast. This is from Richard Hershberger, historian, saber researcher, author of Strike 4, The Evolution of Baseball.

This is episode 1900. We're at the turn of a century here. And so this past blast comes from July 21st, 1900. Richard writes, the Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania boys travel 15 miles up the road and beat the rival Du Bois. And he says it is pronounced Du Bois or Du Bois. Trust me on this. I will. So Punxsutawney beat Du-boys 9 to nothing.

The Du-boys team had prepared for the big game by bringing in a ringer. So too did Punxsutawney. And they were better at it, as reported in the Punxsutawney News of July 25th. And this was a semi-pro game, to be clear. So the quote is, perhaps the most complete drubbing the Du Bois team has ever had was that given them by the Punxsutawney team on their own grounds last Saturday. A big crowd of enthusiasts went along with the team and saw Du Bois get nine goose eggs on their side of the score by innings.

After failing to get the pitcher they wanted, Du Bois engaged Merrill Grove of Brockwayville, who did good work. Don't know much about Merrill Grove of Brockwayville, but he was Du Bois' ringer. He did good work, but the Punxsutawney boys had a little batting streak and proceeded to knock in five runs in the first inning. Rue Boisdel pitched one of the finest games of ball ever seen in this section. Time after time, the Du Bois men would walk back to the bench, bat in hand, after swinging hard but uselessly at three of Rube's cannon shots.

So Rube Waddell was the Punxsutawney ringer. He even went so far on two occasions as to tell Ross and Coulter what kind of ball he was going to throw, and still they couldn't hit it. Rube struck out 13 men, did not give any bases on balls, and gave his opponents but one hit, a scratch single. While the Du Bois people are loyal to their home team, they did not yell, blow horns, or ring cowbells for the very good reason that there was not a time during the entire game when Du Bois had the remotest chance of scoring to say nothing of winning. And Richard writes, Waddell was signed with Pittsburgh, but was having one of his periodic spats with management and had taken French leave, freeing him up for ambitious semi-pro teams. The lesson here is that if both teams bring in ringers, the one with the future Hall of Famer has the edge. So this is the Punxsutawney of Groundhog Day fame, as Richard notes, and think, well, in 1900, what was the difference between a national leaguer and a semi-pro team? And apparently, even back then, it was pretty big.

was a very good player. He led the National League, or I guess, well, there was only the National League in 1900. He led that league in ERA when he was pitching for the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1900, and also led in strikeout raid and various other figures. He was a very high strikeout pitcher for his day, especially, and no one on this team could touch him. So, yeah, even if you brought in a pretty good local ringer, could not compete with bringing in a future Hall of Famer. And I guess that kind of tells you when people sometimes ask, like, well, how would I do against a big league pitcher? Or how would a semi-competent, semi-pro team do against a big league pitcher? Even in 1900, granted against a big league pitcher even in 1900 granted it against

a very good pitcher for his day they could not touch him there was just one scratch single and that was all they could muster yeah i mean i might have put the number i might have guessed like a slightly higher number but yeah it's just really hard and we underestimate the heart yep sometimes you hear about even retired players who are just like playing in beer league softball or some local contest and they just completely dominate it. Just, you know, baseball players are good. Yeah. Major league baseball players are really good. Yeah.

And last note about that, I did look up Aaron Judge's rolling zone rate over his last 10 or 15 games at Fangraphs. And oddly, he has been seeing a fair amount of strikes lately. Actually, like as many strikes as you've seen over any period of that length this season, basically. Like his zone rate seems to have bottomed out in like late July and through most of August. And then oddly, late August and early September, he's actually been seeing more pitches to hit. I don't know that that will last. I don't know that anyone is like throwing meatballs in there to contribute to the Aaron Judge home run fund. Probably not. But if anything, it seems like people are throwing too many hittable pitches to Aaron Judge, which I'm all for because it's been fun to see Aaron Judge launch a dinger a day. Yeah.

Just seems like a kind of curious decision. It does seem like a curious decision. All right. We will end there. All right. As you will no doubt divine, we recorded this episode prior to the news about the competition committee voting on Friday on the proposed 2023 rule changes. It sounds like, according to Evan Drellick and Ken Rosenthal, that the pitch clock and the defensive shift ban or limitation and pickoff limits and enlarged bases are all going to be voted on and most likely greenlit. We will be recording an episode not long after that vote is held, so we will banter about whatever happens. I'll link to a report with all the specifics for now, but we will talk about it soon and get into all of the nitty gritty, and we've talked about

all these things before. We have serious reservations about the shift part. I'm pretty fine with all the other parts, and we have touched on all of those measures on previous episodes, if not multiple previous episodes. So you may know what we will say, but we will say it anyway next time. Also wanted to read an email from Patrick in response to our previous episode and the discussion about toilet flappers. Patrick says, I'm going to suggest something y'all didn't consider about Corky's size guide. I've discovered through Google that the Corky toilet flapper was invented in 1954. In small American manufacturing companies, a common phenomenon is that advertising and packaging don't change much over time. So my thought is that the

size guide is a holdover from the 1950s. Back then, it's likely that not only would average Americans have had a better intuitive grasp of these ball sizes, tee hee hee, but baseballs and softballs likely would pretty commonly have been household objects. So if anyone felt uncertain, they would probably have had something on hand to check for size. I hope this suggestion seems right to you and that it provides some satisfaction. Well, thank you, Patrick. As Jeeves always says, I endeavor to give satisfaction. Yeah, that's a plausible explanation. It might just be force of habit. Maybe they've been using the baseball softball comparison for some time.

There are other decent explanations, too, as we discussed on that episode. Sometimes I think, is it smart to start an episode by discussing toilet flappers for 12 minutes or however long it was? And then to title the episode the Crapper Flapper Rapper Yapper? Probably not, if the goal is not to drive away listeners. There was one time in the past, years ago, when another company in Podcast Network, not The Ringers, reached out about acquiring Effectively Wild, and I think they had a few notes and suggestions, and one of them was maybe don't have very long episode titles that say Effectively Wild episode whatever and then some weird title. Maybe we would get more listeners if we did not title episodes Effectively Wild episode 1899, The Crapper Flapper Rapper Yapper.

If we just titled it, say, Who Will Win the AL MVP Award, Shohei Otani or Aaron Judge. Maybe more people would click on that. But at what cost? It would be so nondescript. Once I think of the wordplay, I just can't help myself. There may be a few people who are just drawn to find out why that's the title. And there are also a few other people who appreciate the wordplay, whereas something about the AL MVP and Judge and Otani, that just washes over you.

You might remember the crapper, flapper, rapper, yapper. I know I will. Plus, everyone's talking about Otani and Judge this week, and so are we, and hopefully we're talking about that in as entertaining a way as anyone, but where else are you going to get toilet flapper talk? That's the effectively wild difference. Your mileage may vary on whether it's a good difference or a bad difference, but if you're listening to this right now, hopefully the former. If I can reach just a few people and those people become Patreon supporters, my job here is done. Probably is pretty daunting to see episode 1900.

You might think, I'm too late. That is too many episodes to catch up on. Of course, you don't have to catch up on them. And at least you know we're not some fly-by-night operation that's about to fold. We're time-tested. We've refused to stop podcasting for many years and thousands of episodes. It's a lot of podcasting reps. Thanks to those of you who've been with us for a while. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon and ensure that we stay around for a while longer by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild.

The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, get themselves access to some perks, and help us stay ad-free. help keep the podcast going, get themselves access to some perks, and help us stay ad-free. Andrew Blackburn, Matt Brewster, Michael Clark, Crust Young, and Perry Vargas, thanks to all of you. Our Patreon supporters get access to the Effectively Wild Patreon Discord group, which is a really great group, now nearing 800 members. You can push us a little bit closer to that just by joining now. You also get access to monthly bonus episodes hosted by yours truly and meg as well as discounts on t-shirts and access to playoff live streams which will be coming up pretty soon and more you can contact me and meg via email at podcast thefangraphs.com or via the patreon messaging system if you are a supporter you can follow

effectively wild on ew pod and you can find the effectively wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild you can rate review and subscribe to effectively wild on EWPod, and you can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash Effectively Wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes, Spotify, and other podcast platforms. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with one more episode before the end of the week. Talk to you soon. I know it makes no sense to me. You know it makes no sense to me You get no fence around me Oh yeah

You know you're talking too much Yes Far too much Yes.