Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1926: Open Offseason

Episode Date: November 8, 2022

Ben Lindbergh, Meg Rowley, and FanGraphs writer Ben Clemens banter about Game 6 of the World Series, the Series and the playoffs as a whole, Phillies manager Rob Thomson’s decision to pull Zack Wheeler in favor of José Alvarado, Yordan Alvarez’s titanic dinger, the Astros’ bullpen performance, and Kyle Schwarber’s bunt attempt, before discussing the […]

You know, I could just go on Never forgive you and just keep on keeping on It's not like I don't have good reason What you are Hello and welcome to episode 1926 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Rowley of Fangraphs. Hello, Meg. Hello. And we are both pleased to be joined by other Ben, Ben Clemens of Fangraphs.

Hello, Ben. Hey, Ben. How's it going? Going well. So this is our first episode of the off-season, I suppose. We don't stare out the window and wait for spring around here. We just keep podcasting. So we've got free agents.'ve got gm meetings we've got non-tenders we've got qualifying offers we've got awards voting results we'll be with you through

all that and everything that comes after that the winter meetings the hall of fame season arbitration etc i'm teasing arbitration as if that is something super exciting it's exciting that it will be completed before the season starts. Yeah. And speaking of the season starting, we'll take you all the way up to pitchers and catchers reporting in mid-February and spring training games starting in late February and the World Baseball Classic in March and then March 30th, opening day. And then we'll do it all over again.

The cycle begins anew. And we'll make time for lots of nonsense and interesting conversations and silliness and emails and stat bless along the way. As usual, just for those of you who are new to the show, we do not stop. We don't even change our schedule. We just keep going as if nothing happened. And sometimes nothing does happen, but we have the podcast anyway, and we find a way. But it won't be hard today, because we've got a lot to talk about today. And Ben is here ostensibly to talk about the free agent class. He, with collaboration and input from other

Fangraphs members, has ranked all the free agents, or at least 50 of them, which is most of the important ones. Sadly, I ranked more than 50 because I'm stupid. Oh, yeah. Oh, well, you're pulling a Langenhagen there where you can actually stick with a round number that other people stick to. We're completists by nature over here. Yeah. But before we turn the page to the offseason officially and start to talk about free agents, we should put a bow on the World Series, which is over now.

So that happened since we last podcasted. There was one more game, and it was the decisive game. The Astros won the World Series in six. They beat the Phillies on Saturday. It was a pretty exciting game, more exciting for Astros fans than for the Phillies fans. But a lot to talk about in this game and I guess a lot to talk about when it comes to the larger Astros conversation which has been raging literally raging for the last day or two fully anticipate the amount of like stock

taking that would be happening about just what this means for the Astros and what it doesn't mean for the Astros and what we can say about them and what we can't say about them. But I guess what we can say about them for now is that they were the better team in this series. And in that sense, they deserve to win. And a lot of people were saying that the Astros were inevitable. And I don't think that they actually were or that any team is in October. And if you somehow simulated it over and over again or played it in the multiverse, as I mentioned in my article, then I do believe that the Phillies would win roughly2 win to the title. And they had a decisive final game. So big picture thoughts on game six specifically, maybe before we get into the bigger picture stuff. It sure was nice to see Zach Wheeler look like Zach Wheeler again.

Yeah. I enjoyed that very much because when he's going right, he sure is fun to watch. So that was great. i want to extend my condolences to phillies fans about having jordan alvarez uh helped end your season i know how that feels um yeah it's a the handshake the mariners fans phillies fans handshake meme yeah they should maybe stop with the uh bring in a lefty specialist yeah against alvarez who has no observable platoon splits yeah maybe just like don't do that yeah we'll talk about that decision

but yeah but it was very thrilling like right up until it wasn't anymore at least in terms of it feeling like it could be anyone's game i mean the astros are you know thrilling in their own way so i don't mean to denigrate them but the game prior we had spent all this time being like nervous we were just nervous on everyone's behalf because it really felt like you know we didn't know who was gonna win when it came down to the final out but that stopped being true after that alvarez home run they seemed deflated after that so yeah i don't know but i I think in general, very fun World Series. So, you know, I enjoyed it. I will admit to like being, well, not thrilled that it only went six,

but like I wasn't opposed to it only going six. Jobs are weird. Yeah, I thought it was a nice amount of baseball. Like it didn't overstay its welcome every game felt very fun to me yeah kind of throughout the playoffs with the exception of the yankees astros series yeah that was kind of a slog i think every other series felt like it lasted about as long as i wanted it to except for i guess also philly's padres which should have gotten 50 yeah yeah yeah i don't know if it was like a i think it

was it was really fun in the moment so i guess it's a classic postseason i was gonna say it's not like the the best that i can recall i mean there were some recent postseasons they all blur together in my mind once they're over but there have been some where like lots of games went to the final elimination game and there were tons of win expectancy swings and that sort of thing. And I don't know that this postseason was anything extraordinary by those standards, but there were a lot of incredibly fun and memorable games. And some of them were high scoring and some of them were low scoring. And even within this series, each team got to have games where it felt good about itself and just kind of walked all over its opponent. And then the mood changed quickly for at least one of them after that.

But yeah, I thought this World Series delivered. Holistically, statistically speaking, it was not in reality. And it was a competitive series and it didn't go all the way, but it went most of the way. And it entertained us all the way, I think. So, yeah, it's a testament to the Astros bullpen that that 4-1 lead felt sort of insurmountable. Yeah. Because it wasn't. It shouldn't be. because it wasn't.

It shouldn't be. But when the Astros bullpen barely allows a run all postseason long and whatever it was, a 0.83 collective ERA, something like that. I mean, basically the best bullpen performance

setting some appropriate minimum in forever. I mean, it was one of the best bullpen performances we've ever seen, which was not unexpected given that this was a vaunted bullpen that was supposed to be a big strength. But even for a vaunted bullpen that's supposed to be a big strength, you don't project a.83.

No. And some of the runs they allowed were, by starters, pitching and relief too. So if you limit it to the actual relievers, then they were even stingier. So the Phillies bullpen was great too and pitched over its head probably, but in a more mortal sense than the Astros bullpen did. So it was just a totally dominant force. Just the degree of dominance was somewhat surprising, but not the fact of the dominance.

So it was a pretty impressive performance. Yeah. It feels like it happened a million years ago. Yeah. I mean, once the season ends, I'm not ready to completely move into winter off-season hot stove mode yet. But then again, most people who root for teams that were not in the world series have been in that mode for quite a while yeah so i guess that's true it's like welcome aboard welcome to the winter we've we've been here for a while yeah so yeah i just i find it jarring to

go from the drama and the theater and the stakes of the world series and an elimination game to then caring about like opt-outs and stuff like that's that's important too but it doesn't carry quite the intrigue perhaps that that a world series does no but a unique ability to disrupt your sunday when you suddenly have to you know yeah if you're ranking the top 50 something free agents and who would do that who would do that before we move on to that the venue said we should talk about the pitching decision. So let's talk about the pitching decision to pull Wheeler and bring in the bullpen to face the rest of the Houston lineup there. How do I feel about it in the moment?

I felt a little nervous. I felt nervous. I didn't feel like it was obviously wrong, but I did feel nervous. Yeah. I didn't feel like this was a slam dunk, clear cut decision either way. So I wouldn't dunk on anyone who held either position really. Yeah. But I also wouldn't dunk on Rob Thompson.

I thought it was okay and defensible. on Rob Thompson. I thought it was okay and defensible. So it's almost eerie how closely it mirrors the Blake Snell decision from a couple of years ago with Kevin Cash. I mean, game six, one nothing game, same inning, like almost the same pitch count, I guess 70 versus 73. So probably replay whatever we podcasted about at that time and much of it would still apply. I think in this case, maybe it's slightly different because, well, there are a few factors, I guess. I mean, the fact that Wheeler was dealing and cruising and whatever verb you want to use there, we know that that can be deceptive sometimes. He did look great, but past results, no guarantee of future performance. Also, even though he looked strong in that game, he had recently been suffering from fatigue, right, which was acknowledged by the team. And his velocity was down and he was pushed back.

So I don't know whether you can just give a guy an extra day and that's just wiped away like it never happened or whether that could have come back to bite him at some point. So there's that. There is also, well, there's the third time through the order penalty as always. And Wheeler has had a fairly sizable one, I think, this season and over the course of his career. He doesn't seem extraordinary in that respect. And you also have the Alvarado familiarity factor, because as we discussed coming into the series, there's a similar penalty that happens with relievers when they face the same hitters many times in a postseason series. And this was, what, the fourth time that Alvarado had faced Jordan Alvarez? that Alvarez had faced Wheeler, but still, maybe you could project that Alvarado would not be at his absolute best because Alvarez had gotten some previous looks at him. Still, probably, I would assume that a fresh or fresh-ish Alvarado for the first time in that game, statistically speaking, I guess would be a better bet than Wheeler the third time through dealing

with whatever fatigue effects he was dealing with. And then, of course, there's the platoon effect, which, as you alluded to, Ben, neither Wheeler nor Alvarez has a sizable platoon split. Now, it's still the case that Alvarado is better against lefties than righties, even though Jordan has not been significantly better against righties than lefties. So you're still getting the advantage, I guess, on at least one half of the equation. So that's something. So that's worth mentioning, I think, even though there were no real historical splits to speak of in that situation. Right, Ben? I think the kind of untalked about move, which is to be bringing in Sir Anthony Dominguez there. Because I think you can say, like Wheeler, there's a lot of questions

about his fatigue level. It's the third time through the order. It's the highest leverage point of the game. So why not bring in your best reliever and kind of patch the lower leverage points with other guys? And I do think that Dominguez is pretty clearly a lot better than Alvarado.

You know, platoon splits and all, like he's just their best reliever. That seems like a spot where you should say, I just want to use my best guy. He still needs to get Alex Bregman out after this too. Right. And I don't know if this is true, but to me, Alvarado just seems like a really bad matchup with Bregman,

even if he got Jordan out, in that he is wild and has big platoon splits, and Bregman doesn't strike out much and that just seems like it's just not going to end well Bregman had also what hit a double off of him already not again small sample doesn't matter that much but it kind of felt like it played out the way you expected yeah and I guess you've got Tucker coming up in theory too so there's that but yeah you're right and and Dominguez uh he gave up another run when he came in ultimately but Alvaro had already gotten into trouble yeah so it maybe that is reminiscent also of the Snell cash decision because there were some people who

pointed out well pulling Snell wasn't the wrong move but maybe bringing in Nick Anderson was the wrong move maybe there were better options and that was sort of sticking to a script that had worked well for that team up until that time. But Anderson had struggled a little lately. And I guess you could say the same about Alvarado not having had the best World Series. That's one defense is that this was the script that the Phillies had been following. It had worked for them. It was a sensible one. I had praised Thompson for

being aggressive and bringing in Alvarado in earlier games, though I guess the situation was not exactly the same. So I think I can kind of see it either way, or I guess we're saying it's three ways, potentially. You could leave Wheeler in, or you could pull Wheeler and bring in Alvarado, or you could pull Wheeler and bring in Dominguez so choose your own adventure and based on what happened I'm sure the Phillies wish they had chosen a different adventure but that is uh going by results rather than process so it's it's a tough call either way and regardless like all credit to Jordan for absolutely obliterating that ball like it was you know a 99 mile per hour pitch I think it was the the fastest pitch he had ever Oh my god. farther than that and i would not have blinked you know you're sitting there and you're like is he like uh the real answer is that yorda now is just a really great hitter and whatever like slump he has been in in the postseason is not really like the thing we should think about we

should think about all this time he has spent being a great hitter demolishing pitches but it's like oh are you like storing up your energy for maximum dispersal in these moments when you can just really put the dagger into somebody's season? It's like, sorry, I couldn't get hits before. I just had to crush dreams. And you got to like a, I don't know, Ben, isn't there some superhero that does that? There's probably some superhero that does that.

The dream crusher. Yeah, sure. Yep, that was who I was thinking of definitely you know i just made that up but like a like a chipmunk with uh you know nuts this is not the right reference but i'm picturing ben stiller from mystery men his power that he can just get incredibly angry yeah i don't know maybe the sandman anyway i do have to just give credit also to Alex Cintron, The Astro's hitting coach, who did some good hitting coaching, apparently. And I read Stephanie Epstein's story about this in SI, but apparently there was a batting cage session before the game and everyone knew that Diaz had been slumping and they looked at some video and Cintron recommended a change, I think, to his hand position and supposedly suddenly everything clicked and he was blistering the ball again. So I don't know whether it was that or whether that gave him confidence or whether this would have happened anyway, but that's what a hitting coach is supposed to do. So good job, I guess. And sometimes like we talk about slumps as if they're just random or they're just sort of afflictions that kind of come from nowhere. But very often, at least if you're not hitting the ball hard and just getting robbed, there's some sort of nagging injury, whatever it was, and then maybe it might just randomly fix itself without you ever learning what the problem was, or you might actually do

something to correct the problem. In this case, maybe it was the latter, or who knows? Maybe it just happened. But it did sort of bring the Astros postseason full circle, where Jordan just destroyed a team at the beginning and the end in very painful fashion. For the opponents, not for Astro's fans. It was a very joyous match. Didn't look too hard for him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing about Alvarez's power.

It's so easy. It just looks so easy. And then they added an insurance run, which they turned out not to need, really. And I guess the only other weird thing was kyle schwarber trying to bunt which is kind of that already having homered in the game and i i guess the the shift was on r.i.p the shift one of the last shifts that we will see and i assume he was trying to take advantage of that but it was wasn't it with two strikes when yeah was here? Oh, yeah, sure was. So that's not so good. Yeah, it isn't. It's not what he wants.

He has bunted before. Like, he's not one of these guys. In his life? Yeah. He's not one of these guys who's, like, never laid one down successfully. He has some experience doing that. But, yeah, with two strikes. Yeah, it seems.

Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't seem like the best. Did your viewing experience of this World Series game make you think that more things should be reviewable by instant replay, for instance, whether someone had leaned into a pitch on purpose? Yeah, I guess in theory, there's no real reason why you couldn't do that, right? I mean, if you can review to see if someone was hit, there's always like squeamishness about judgment calls. Well, right. But we've already, we've crashed the Rubicon, folks. I guess that's one where. What judgment calls get reviewed now? Well, no, I mean, like we just, we allow judgment calls within our umpiring structure right now.

Like, you know, they are making a judgment. Yeah, the whole thing is, yeah. Yeah. Judgment calls. All the time. So. Reviewing them seems tough. I don't know.

I also didn't think he was trying to get hit so much there. I ain't getting into it. Well, yeah. I don't think he set up before the pitch to get hit. Yes, right. Well, he has a track record of doing that. Yeah. He's practically standing on home plate.

Yeah, and I know Marti Maldonado is a silver slugger finalist. Justin Choi mentioned that in his recap of this game, like as an aside, and someone who has like better boundaries with baseball than any of us did in the comments was like very confused and thought that Justin thought he should be a silver slugger finalist. And it's like, no, no, this award just doesn't make any sense. It's fine. Yeah. If you ask me in 20 years about Martin Maldonado, the first thing I will remember is that he was somehow a silver slugger finalist that one year. And no one will know what I'm talking about. But yeah, he has done this before, which makes sense because he's not actually that silver slugger. And also, he was playing through injury, as we learned. He has a broken hand. Yeah. Seems like every catcher has a broken hand. Yeah. Seems like every catcher has a broken hand.

Yeah, what's wrong with catchers having broken hands? I mean, I guess it makes sense in that I understand how catchers break their hands. But then how do they keep playing is the question. I can't imagine. So it's not just Big Dumper. It was also Martin Maldonado, who broke his hand in late August. Yeah. So there's that. And a sports hernia on top of that.

So, yeah. Then I retract my statement. You get on however you need to, Martina. Yeah, if you're playing through that much pain, like maybe you're entitled to just kind of, you know, finesse your way into one. I don't think it was like as egregious as Oled Misdiez trying to do it in game one.

No, definitely not. And that's probably why he wasn't called on it. Yes, agreed. But clearly like, you know, he was scooching in toward the plate. He knew he was probably going to get some inside sinkers. And also in his post-game interview, he basically copped to it. I mean, he didn't say he was leaning into it, but he said he didn't make an effort to get out of the way, which is what you're supposed to do.

And if you don't do that, then you not supposed to keep accredited with a hit by pitch but he's hardly the only person to do that i know that some people have seized on that as see the astros they're still rotten to the core they're still finding ways to cheat oh man just wait till they sign anthony rizzo yeah yeah yeah that doesn't strike me i mean maybe if we want to talk about the discourse this can be our transition to. But that's just like a baseball thing to do. I don't feel like that's an Astros thing to do. That's like a light hitting infielder thing to do or catcher thing to do, not a uniquely Houston proposition. There was just a great Davey Andrews post at Fangraphs just running through all the examples of hitters who've been hit on pitches literally in the strike zone and have gotten hit by pitches on them. So it's not supposed to happen, but it happens fairly often. And I think it was 2010, there was a hitter who not only worked his way on via hit by pitch, but faked the hit by pitch, which is not unheard of. But he got hit on his bat and pretended that he had been plunked and went through the theatrics and the gesticulations and then admitted after the game, yeah, I was just trying to work my way on. articulations and then admitted after the game, yeah, you know, I was just trying to work my way on. And it was actually the same home plate umpire, Lance Barksdale, who was umping this game, game six. And that hitter, that nefarious, just doing everything he can to win, even if it's

illegal and pantomiming hit by pitches and just underhanded dastardly deeds, Derek Jeter did that. Wow. It's like the most I've ever liked Derek Jeter yeah that's what winners do it's what champions do and that was in a like mid-September game too what? it wasn't even in the playoffs? when did he so what was the gap between when he did this

and when he admitted that he had done it? I think it was post-game that's amazing like that piece of it feels like a strategic error on his part because if you're going to get up to shenanigans, you can't say you've been up to shenanigans because then the umpires are going to know that you have the capacity for shenanigans. I mean, if it hit his bat,

they were going to figure that out on replay. Probably true. That one was unavoidable. Hey, if they institute the challenge system yes and you are the catcher yes and someone gets hit by pitch on a pitch that's in the strike zone presumably you could challenge it yeah right and just say hey that was in the strike zone so it can't be uh hit by pitch true yeah that would be a logical now what i'm consistency yeah yeah that's a good point oh man i want to in, it can't be a hit by pitch.

Right. Yeah, by definition. It's a tautology. Huh. All right. That's a reason to be pro-Robo-Imps or at least challenge system. No. Just challenge system.

They're not the same thing, Ben. Just challenge system. Thank you. Everything in moderation. Yeah, there you go. All right. So the discourse. So I courted disaster with the headline of my piece.

Yeah, you sure did. My piece, which was playing off the drill tweet, was you do in fact have to hand it to the World Series winning Astros. And if you read the piece, which of course everyone does. Right. To completion, would not think of commenting before reading every last word, then I doubt that many people would disagree with me. If anything, Astros fans might be the most vociferous in their disagreement. I was on MLB Now on MLB Network and Astros fans are in my mentions. They're not happy with me. But I think I pissed everyone off one way or another.

That's a sign of a good article. Yeah, I'd like to think so. If I made everyone mad, then it's a good compromise. Basically, what I was saying here is that this Astros team was very good. And so you can hate the Astros and you can hold their past against them, and you should. But that

this team, which as far as we know, was on the level, and we await further reporting from Ken Rosenthal and Evan Trout. There was an Onion article, right, about the Astros crediting whatever soon-to-be unearthed cheating method they used here. But that's satire.

We can't make poor Evan write another book. Yeah, right. Good timing for him. He's got a book coming out. Yeah. He fixes everything make poor Evan write another book. Yeah, right. Good timing for him. He's got a book. Yeah. He fixes everything. And now there's been more winning. I'm sure he'd like to update it. I don't know if there's time. But anyway, good sales bump for him. But I basically was pointing out this was a very good team. They were a deserving winner in that they played better than the Phillies. They played well all season. And I was drawing some distinction between the current Astros and the past Astros in the sense that, as everyone has observed, there are but five holdovers from the 2017 team. And yes,

they are prominent holdovers. They were not primarily responsible for the Astros' postseason run. Most of the Astros' postseason heroes were newer additions, people who, as I pointed out in my piece, were really no more responsible for the signs dealing than, say, Philly's backup catcher Garrett Stubbs, who was an Astro from 2019 to 2021. And no one blames him for having been an Astro, although he didn't even get into a game this postseason, right? So he was a spectator the whole time regardless. Former Effectively Wild guest. Anyway, there I think is something to be said for celebrating the, as far as we know, innocent Astros and for not tarring them all with the same brush and painting with the same brush and doing other things with brushes that we shouldn't do. And painting with the same brush and doing other things with brushes that we shouldn't do because Jeremy Pena had a great postseason. And Jordan Alvarez had a great postseason. And Christian Javier had a great postseason. And Fran Brevaldez had a great postseason. And a bunch of bullpen guys had a great postseason. And they earned it. They themselves earned an untainted title, I would say. And of course, I think people are pleased for Dusty Baker, who won a World Series as a player, but now has finally won one as a manager and has set all sorts of records for having done so. You know, the oldest coach or manager to win a

championship and the most games managed before winning a championship and the most postseason games managed before a championship, et cetera, et cetera. And aside from the fact that he gets texts from Bill Cosby and mentions that, I think everyone is happy with Dusty and happy that he got this off his back and removes the last impediment to his Hall of Fame case. And he was thrilled and people are pleased for Trey Mancini. You know, there are a lot of easy to root for players or at least would be easy to root for if they were not Astros.

All that said, I don't know that anyone is explicitly saying this, but I don't think this is in any way a redemption story. I don't think it absolves the Astros. I don't think it absolves the Astros. I don't begrudge anyone for continuing to not celebrate the success of the Astros who are still there from 2017ters just in the seasons since the sign-stealing scandal came to light. And in fact, only six teams have not subsequently employed any 2017 Astros. So they've kind of spread throughout the league and played for most teams. And of course, former Astros personnel, front office people have been highly sought after and managers and coaches and everyone is poaching the Astros. I think we can admit that they are good at building winning baseball teams, which has never really been in dispute. And we can maybe hold multiple ideas in our heads, which is that this doesn't vindicate them. This doesn't undo what they did. And they dug

themselves a hole that they can't really climb out of just by winning. This is just going to be forever associated with this franchise, at least until the very last sign-stealing Astro is no longer on the roster. And that's the way it is. But the Astros were also just a really good team. So those are my takes, essentially. Ben, do you want to go first? I heard that winning fixes everything. Just covered this. Yeah.

Even, you know, that's an allusion, I think, maybe to a Jim Crane comment, right? Where Astros owner Jim Crane, and you can certainly not be pleased for Astros owner Jim Crane, remains the Astro's owner, even though there's a new GM and a new manager and everything. But he told his team at the time, the only way we can fix it is we've got to beat everybody. his credit, he did acknowledge on Saturday, I don't think it's ever fixed and that they can't actually escape what they did because you can't undo the past. And so you can't actually fix what happened. All you can do is kind of keep winning and I guess establish that you can win without cheating, that you can be a good baseball team. again in a moral ethical sense i don't think it writes the scales or anything or like erases the stain so i think we can credit them while also still debiting them for for past transgressions i think i would say that you do not under any circumstances have to end it to jim crane um i feel comfortable saying that yeah i guess rob minford had to hand the hunk of

metal to him or decided to but but he didn't have to yeah the astros are really good and they won this year deservingly so is kind of my view on it and i don't think that it needs to be like connected to the 2017 team it it's fine i it's part of the historical record that they cheated and got caught cheating and it's part of the historical record that they cheated and got caught cheating and it's part of the historical record that this team was really great with no evidence of cheating and won the world series and i don't know that either of those two needs to be all that related yeah i think where i find myself being kind of exhausted by the whole thing is like i don't think that there's anything wrong with fans of other teams still wanting to give them the business right they've

been invited to give them the business by the commissioner right like the commissioner said that part of you know how they would be punished essentially was to meet the public and and hear from them and they sure do and you know And I think that we could probably have a conversation about the wisdom of that. I know that in order to secure cooperation from those players and to get what they thought to be sort of candid remarks about the scope of the cheating and the delightful mechanism by which it was initially implemented,

which this is not by any means like the most important part of that chapter of baseball history, but it is really too bad just how broad the cheating seemed to be that we can't enjoy the banging scheme part of it, right? Like it's already moved into this territory where people are either very serious about it and think that it is a moral stain that can never be undone or redeemed from for the participants or that like everyone should just shut up about it and i was like what if we found comedy in between these

things because that they banged on a trash can is objectively hilarious so that's too bad but i think that like if fans want to boo them, that it's like fans are going to boo them and they've been invited to boo them. And if the league didn't want them to keep booing them, they probably should have suspended some of them, right? And I think the fans, like fans boo players of other teams for all kinds of reasons that are far sillier

than like booing astros who we know to have cheated i think it's kind of i've said this on the pod before like you know when i'm when i'm watching a stadium full of people like boo the astros futures game participant because he happens to be playing in dodger stadium and he's wearing an astros uniform like that seems not like what i would do in that moment because this poor young guy is just trying to be a good prospect. He wasn't even assigned to the team when it happened. You know what I mean?

I think that if I were architecting a response to this, I might invite people to be discerning in their boos. I really liked that Seattle fans were like, we will boo Bregman and Altuve and Gurriel and Jordan because he's really about to end our season. But Jeremy Payne has not done anything to us and neither has Trey Mancini. So they get to, you know, that's fine.

We don't have to give those guys the business. So I thought that that was a good way to balance it. I also think that we can find the response of the Astros players involved kind of wanting in terms of how much contrition they seem to be interested in or at least how much contrition they seem to be interested in sort of like publicly performing while also acknowledging that like it would feel bad to get booed at work like 81 times a year and then all through the month of October like that that would suck and it would feel bad and probably have some psychological impact on you and I don't say that

to like excuse what they did or to say that they shouldn't be held accountable but like we can hold that reality in tandem and concert with the fact that they've been like largely able to get by without facing individual consequences beyond that. So I don't know. I'm mostly as ever kind of exhausted by discourse, but I think that, you know, this is what we were going to get as soon as these guys didn't face individual

player suspensions for what happened in 17. Like this was always the reality we were going to have. And I don't know that, I don't know that they'll ever not get booed somewhere. Like it doesn't seem like George Springer gets booed that much like he does sometimes, but it's not as consistent. You know, Correa seems to have largely moved on. But like, I don't know, people boo players for years,

for decades to the point point that we ask ourselves, why are they mad at him again? What did that guy ever do to this fan base? Was it an actual thing, or was it just that he was good at baseball? It can be hard to tell sometimes. I don't know. I think that it's hard to imagine a scenario now where Bregman and Altuve and Gurriel

will be able to plot a new course. There's this continued refusal to go to the All-Star game. We all remember the really terrible press conference they had on the dais after everything happened. I think that there was probably an opportunity for them to have what people would have perceived to be a very genuine moment of public contrition, but it's done now.

Like they can't, you can't come out and be like, oh no, I was really sorry this whole time. I'm skeptical that anyone would believe their contrition. This is what I'm saying. Why has that happened in a professional athlete, even if they did it the day after it happened? Sure, but like there wasn't even that. I mean, although I say that and, you know, athlete even if they did it the day after it happened sure but like there wasn't even that i

mean although i say that and you know if you go back and like watch their interviews and listen to their interviews in the clubhouse after their really terrible press conference those answers were much better you know and those i just don't think the answers matter like the fans aren't going to be like well i'd like to boo out spregman but first i'm going to listen to his seven press conferences right i mean that right and and if there ever were a time that that possibility existed we're well past it now right like yeah it doesn't matter what they really say now and maybe part of it is that they are still associated with the team like there have been guys who have signed free agent deals other places and like one of the first questions that they've gotten asked when they've gone in the clubhouse is like, you know, so about 2017.

And it seems like with a distance from the team, they're able to say something that people view to be more real or whatever. But I don't know. We don't demand rationality from fans, which doesn't mean that fans shouldn't think about how they behave because some fans are awful, awful, you guys. Like, just relax about it already. Not about this specifically, but about other stuff. You know, I think fans should think about how they, like, conduct themselves as human beings, because we should always all be doing that. But I don't know. We don't demand rationality in other places and there was a real there is a real grievance

here right like i don't think you're ever going to tell a a dodger fan to let it go and have them go oh you know what you're right right yeah you're right that some players who have left have been more open especially about like the title being tarnished or tainted or feeling bad about it in that way. And probably the few remaining players, they're just too associated with the Astors to ever get themselves out from under that cloud. And they're going to be there for a while, at least Altuve and Bregman. And Altuve, I mean, I feel like he gets a disproportionate amount of the blame. He should get some blame, but because he's the face of that franchise really people hold

him responsible especially because all the unsubstantiated buzzer rumors right like absolutely nothing ever corroborating that but some people still believe it and because of that and just because he's a very visible astro i think people give him as much grief as anyone, if not more. And it's been reported and also backed up by the audio of the bangs that he was the least eager to receive the signs that he did not want the signs. Now, he also didn't do anything to stop anyone else from doing the signs. He didn't come forward and blow the whistle or anything. So I don't think he gets a pass at all. But I think people treat him as if he was sort of the mastermind or the instigator or something when really it seems like he just kind of went along with it because everyone else was doing it and

he was in that clubhouse, I suppose. And as a team leader, he probably should have put his foot down as others should have. But I'm just saying, I feel like he gets even more grief than he deserves, which is certainly some grief. Well, and the MVP doesn't help, right? should have but i'm just saying i feel like he gets uh even more grief than he deserves which is certainly some grief but well and the mvp doesn't help right oh yeah there's that too you know i think that like if i we've talked about this before i'm not like super inclined to booing anyway like if i were going to boo an astro my choice would probably be bregman because of the the dugout flexing after home runs thing, which just reads so terribly in hindsight. But I think that the MVP of it all probably is also a big part of why L2A attracts particular

notice. Yeah. And Ben, as you said, I mean, I think you can sort of look at this title largely in isolation, at least other than the holdovers. But I guess the one way in which I suppose it could kind of in a convoluted way reflect on the cheating team is if you thought that the Astros were solely a product of the cheating, that they were only good because they were cheating. Now, again, it's such a different roster that it really still doesn't have anything to do

with that team in that sense. But if you thought that, I mean, I never thought that the Astros were good before that season. They were good in pretty predictable ways that season. They've been good essentially ever since. So you really have to do a lot of lifting to think that they were purely a product of science doing, which does not mean that you have to celebrate them and give them a clap on the back for being good at baseball, even though they were breaking the rules. But they are, as far as we know, no longer breaking the rules and are still extremely good at baseball. And no sign that they're going to stop being good at baseball anytime soon, because they'll just be bringing back much of this team. And even though the

Mariners are much improved, if the season were to start tomorrow which would be a little too soon i think if the season started actually tomorrow i might take seattle just because these astros have to be so tired yeah right it just gives them a little bit of a rest but as currently constituted i guess you would expect the astros to be back again and we can have this conversation all over again until we all die or retire or whatever so can we not have it until can we not have it until we die because like i'd like to live a long time and i'm pretty ready to be done having this particular conversation yeah i like talking to you too but yeah regardless of how long i live i i would be happy not to continue to have this conversation. But as you said, in the absence

of some other kind of punishment, whether official Rob Manfred mandated punishment or the punishment of just being bad at baseball, if the Astros had just been bad for one of these seasons, if they had suffered that sort of karmic payback of just being bad for a while, then I feel like fans would have kind of laid off them eventually because the fact that they are still so good, that makes them more effective heels and villains in a sense, because it seems like they got away scot-free. I mean, they had some fines and draft pick penalties and suspensions, and that made no

discernible impact on the Astros' success as an organization. And so everyone feels like, well, they're just leading a charmed life and they just keep winning. And so far from being some sort of panacea to get everyone to lay off because, hey, they won a clean one now. No, it's just the opposite. It's like, hey, they keep winning. They get to win another title and they get to keep the old one too. This is nonsense. We should boo them even harder.

So I don't know that anything will actually change. I mean, after the win, Astros closer Ryan Presley said, I wasn't here in 2017. I love how he prefaced his statement with that. Don't associate me with the sidestealing. But I can imagine it's definitely a weight off everybody's shoulders. Nobody can say shit now. And of course, people can still talk shit about the Astros. And they have and they will. If you're limiting your shit talking to the players who actually cheated, well, they didn't cheat in 2017 any less now that they won in 2022. And they don't necessarily get to decide if or when people forgive them for that. Friend of the show Zach Cram wrote a piece for The Ringer where

he considered how the Astros will be remembered long-term and what their legacy will be. And he noted that once enough time has passed, people may just conflate the 2017 and 22 teams. The distinctions could just get erased. And as he noted, we remember the Black Sox of 1919. We don't talk as much about the fact that the White Sox won a World Series in 1917 that was unsullied. It was sullied by subsequent events and sort of subsumed by them. Though another thing that people are saying is dynasty, the dynasty word. Alex Bregman said, I don't like using the term dynasty, but quite a few other people, whether they're Astros fans or just media

members, have been banding it about. I think that is a bit more fraught because that would encompass the science-doing title. But just in general, I don't know how useful a conversation the dynasty discourse is. I mean, it's almost like MVP conversations where it just devolves into, well, how do we define value? And now it's just how do we define dynasty? It's like they've been very good for a long time. era adjust your definition of dynasty whatever it is because no one is just going to win world series every year the way that the reds did or the yankees did or insert your old dynasty here and so merely being great every year in the regular season and getting to the playoffs and making six straight alcs i mean i guess that probably fits whatever modern definition of

dynasty you could craft if you're not discarding the first title because of sign stealing but i don't know it's not that interesting a conversation to me it's just like well what are our parameters and how many years and how many wins and how many playoff appearances and pennants and all that we all know the results they've been a very successful baseball team for quite a while now second only to the Dodgers in the regular season. Yeah, they're good. They're good. They're good.

However. Oh, can I try? Can I try one? Yeah, I was going to. But yeah, if you've got a segue, go for it. I was going to say, you know, one way that people can or teams specifically can try to improve their rosters to compete against clubs like the Astros is in free agency. Ooh, okay. What?

All right. Yeah. I was going to go with Justin Verlander possibly leaving due to free agency. No, yours was good. Yours was fine. Either way, we were thinking the same thing. Let's talk about some free agents. And I guess we should briefly acknowledge one player who is not a free agent and who

I imagine was a late scratch from the free agent ranking. Late-ish, yeah. Late-ish. That's Edwin Diaz, who was due to be a free agent, but instead signed quite a lucrative extension with the New York Mets. And thus, he will not reach free agency. He signed a five-year, $102 million deal. That is a record for a reliever with a no-trade clause and an opt-out after the third season and a six-year $102 million deal. That is a record for a reliever with a no trade clause and an opt-out after the third season and a six-year club option. So good news for Diaz, good news for

Timmy Trumpet, I guess. Hopefully he gets a cut of this or some sort of record deal in this deal. But when I saw that immediately, I was like, whoa, that is a ton of money for a reliever. And I guess I'm still thinking with the saber brain that's like, don't pay for relievers or whatever. But Edwin Diaz is, if not the best reliever, perhaps the second best reliever behind maybe Emmanuel Classe. put it well in his piece, which was basically like we're playing with funny money here, potentially. I don't know that we need to even analyze the dollars here. Maybe we will. But Dan wrote, I think there's a strong case to be made that you ought to be willing to overpay for an elite talent when there are a number of conditions. You're a contending team, check. The money won't keep you from doing something else. Presumably. Check. The player is truly an elite at his position and signing the player addresses a real team need. Check again. that signing Edwin Diaz to a $20 million something per year deal will not preclude him from going after whoever else or bringing back DeGrom if they want to or Nimmo if they want to or targeting

who knows who else. If they're just going to go with a $400 million payroll or something, then you don't even really need to talk about opportunity costs because the opportunity cost is to Steve Cohen's bank account. And who cares about that? Yeah. I don't even think even if not all those factors are true, it's not a wild overpay to like projected value.

If you give any benefit for the fact that he'll pitch higher leverage innings than average, like he's really, really good. And they're not paying him, you know, $35 million a year for 10 years. Like it's a big contract for a 10 years. It's a big contract for a reliever. It's the biggest contract ever. But that for a reliever is doing a lot of work there. Yeah. Yeah. He's ridiculous. I mean, we talked about it, like the fact that you can have a 1.31 ERA and be like, he underperformed his FIP. Right. He's really good. Yeah. That's ridiculous. He has not always been that good we have talked many

times about the mystery of his 2019 season right and then even his 2021 season was quite good but not nearly at the level of his 2022 so you know relievers are variable and you pitch 60 innings a year and things can go wrong and you can serve up some meat balls. So no guarantee that he is going to be as dominant as he was this year. It would be difficult to repeat that performance, which is something you could say about other New York free agents we will probably be mentioning in a minute. But yeah, it remains to be seen whether Steve Cohen is just going to blow everyone out of the water for every potential free agent or whether there will be some fragment of Wilpon-ness where it's like, well, we got this guy and therefore we can't get that guy. But I don't get that vibe from Steve

Cohen. Yeah. And I don't know. I have said in the past, it would be to the sports benefit if 29 other teams had to deal with a Mike Elich type, but a Mike Elich type signing better contracts. Some of those were stinkers. I'm happy when Elich type, but like a Mike Elich type signing better contracts. Some of those were stinkers. Like we can, I'm happy when guys get paid, but some of those contract extensions in Detroit were like, they were maybe not the best. But it is, I think having to potentially contend

with being outbid every time would hopefully raise everyone's level of spending a little bit. It's like, well, we might have to account for Steve. He's a wild one. If he just doesn't care about the soft cap that we have and is like, fine, tax me, whatever. I can afford it.

That changes the dynamic for the top end of the market. And then if you get outbid for those guys, maybe you have to spend a little more in the middle. Who knows? Could be good. All right. So that is not one of the top 50 free agents. That is a New York Met Edwin Diaz.

He timed it, actually, I think, perfectly. If you're going to do it pre-publication, do it in the afternoon like he did. Because then what happened was we saw it had come through, and I was like, hey, Ben, we got to move another guy up. And yeah, you have to write a blurb about him. And yeah, you have to write a Ben's take about one more guy on this list who ended up being Gene Skrura. But like it was at a totally respectable time.

No one was haggard, you know. Didn't happen at midnight. So you either need to do it when he did or like two days later because then we can just say, hey, Edwin Diaz signed a big contract with the Mets. Congratulations to Edwin. He timed it just right. Yeah. hey, Edwin Diaz signed a big contract with the Mets. Congratulations to Edwin. He timed it just right. Yeah. And man, I know we don't have to talk about the Kellnick trade in the context of Edwin Diaz signing this deal,

but boy, the perceptions of that trade have shifted so dramatically. And the first impression that Edwin Diaz made in New York has been erased so thoroughly. It's just, it's kind of incredible. It makes you question whether we know anything, if we ever thought that we did, which I didn't. So I guess I don't have to question it. But just don't be confident about anything really, because Kelnick can't miss. And look, this might not be the last time that we have to reevaluate that trade, right?

That's so nice of you to say about Jared Kelnick. I still believe. I still believe he can salvage some kind of career. And who knows? Maybe Diaz just goes pumpkin again and Kelnick puts some stuff together and Diaz has this big contract and suddenly we're talking about things in a different way again. But yeah, I mean, people were criticizing the Mets for quite some time as if Derek Kelnick was a lock, which a lot of people thought he was and had some reason to think. And at least thus far-

He thought he was a top 100 prospect. Yeah, a top, very tippy top. Yeah, top 100. I would argue that he was inarguably a top 100 prospect. Yeah, he was a top 10 prospect. Yes, right. So I think- That top-down prospect. Yes, right. That's why they play the games, Ben. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So that was weird, I guess is my only takeaway of that. Sometimes players can change their perceptions multiple times, and you can always evaluate a trade based on what the multiple parties knew at the time, but the retrospective analysis of how it turned out,

sometimes you got to wait a while, and maybe a little longer even than this. Anyway, the free agent class. How is it, Ben? How is this free agent class? What do you make of it? So it's good. It's quite good. Last year's was also quite good. And a lot of guys from last year's are coming back this year, but these two have been a lot better than the years preceding it. Both in terms of the top is really good. Aaron Judge has had the best non-Barry Bonds season of my lifetime. He just Yenished that up. That's awesome.

That's about as good of a platform year as anyone's going to have. And it's also quite deep. Like Gene Segura, do mention him again, is our 25th player on this list, and he's really good. He's a league average hitter who plays gold glove caliber defense at second base. That's pretty nice for the 25th best free agent on the market. It's both deep and deep in starting pitching. There were 20 starting pitchers in my top 50 free agents.

I mean, I wouldn't be super pleased with some of the guys at the back end if I'm counting on them for more than like a lottery ticket. But there's a lot of starting pitching. There's a bunch of good shortstops at the top. You've got a real headliner in Judge. I think it's a great free agent class. And as a result, there's a lot of teams looking for players because they've lost all these great players. Right.

And I hope, fingers crossed, that this will be a quote unquote normal offseason. Yeah. Pandemic disrupted. Not lockout disrupted. I don't even want to forecast an optimistic vision of the future, but it does feel good. We are recording on Monday before the election. So, you know, that just seems realistic. But keeping it specifically to the realm of sports, which which as we all know, nothing to do with politics.

Right, yeah. Completely separate. Stick to sports. Stick to baseball. Of course, always easy to do. Neatly can divide those things. I think if we look at it in that context, much in the way that we were thrilled to be going into a season at all, but also like not a dramatically delayed one, not a shortened one, not one with as many weird rules or lack of fans, etc. And it really was fun to watch just because it felt like such a relief and such a gift to have a season at all and a full length one.

It sort of feels like that heading into the offseason. and a full length one, it sort of feels like that heading into the off season. Like maybe things will be back to some semblance of normality and we will not have to do podcasts for several months when there's zero baseball news. Yeah, I think this class is going to be good for that, basically. Well, and Ben, you're sort of of the mind that while we will not see the level of activity we saw last November with like the artificial deadline of a lockout looming that we are likely to see more early activity than in years past, right? Yeah. So I'll preface this by saying,

why would you listen to me on this? I got it pretty wrong last year. But I do think about baseball a lot. That's part of the job and try to learn from my mistakes. I think I kind of everyone made that mistake last year. Like no one told us that all these players were gonna sign out of nowhere to get some certainty but i think a lot of players who signed in november were just happy like hey i didn't spend a month like doing a bunch of nonsense things that i didn't need to i knew where i was gonna go what's the downside here so i expect there'll be more of those this year than there have been in the past. It just makes a lot of sense.

Knowing where you're going to live the next year earlier is better. And I don't think it really does anything strange to markets. You know, you have a lot of people that argue the longer you wait, the worse contract you get. Right. And I don't think that's obvious. I think you have to kind of control for what number free agent you are to sign. You don't want to be like the last person not sitting down in musical chairs. But if no one signs for a long time, then musical chairs is a less good reference because the music hasn't stopped. Yeah, there we go. Okay, actually, great, great analogy here.

That worked. But just largely speaking, I think free agents will sign a little bit earlier this year because it seems like it's win-win. Does anyone strike you as a particularly good candidate to sign early, either because they're worried about being sort of on the outside looking in if they wait or because, you know, the fit is just so obvious as to where they might go? Justin Turner signing with the Dodgers, I feel like could just happen whenever and it wouldn't really surprise me too much. So he waited a long time last year. I guess that's true. Otherwise, I would have said Kershaw too, but he waited a while last year.

Yeah, he was sort of waiting to see if he'd be healthy last year, which I guess that's always a question with him, but maybe less acutely than it was last year. Right. So I think that's trickier. And I think last year he had, or at least the Dodgers talking about him made me think there was some chance

he would retire. Not high, but that doesn't seem likely this year. Yeah. But aside from Turner, I think some of the kind of mid-tier pitchers I'm talking about will sign early. Like if I'm Jose Quintana, I would like to sign at a place that tells me I'm going to have a good starting job like right away. So I think there's a lot of pitchers who are Quintana-esque who might take his spot otherwise and leave him in a position where he comes into a team where they were targeting Carlos Verdone and they didn't get him. And so they signed two kind of mid-tier guys and hope one of them works out. I think going to a place where they say, hey, you're going to be a good fit here. And that could be the Cardinals for him.

It actually seems like he was a pretty good fit there, kind of with their defense, what they're trying to do. That he would just want to rip off a Band-Aid and get it done early. I would have actually picked Edwin Diaz as a person to sign early. And I guess it worked out kind of well. Just because he's the only person of his class in the market and so he can kind of set the market where he wants to but he also would probably just as soon stay with the mets was the vibe i got from him and so that seems like a thing that could get done early in free agency where he says everyone give me your best bids okay like steve do you want

to match great we're done and i guess he basically just skipped all those steps. But if you're the only person of a class like Diaz is and like Aaron Judge is really, there's no Aaron Judge-esque player in this class, then you can negotiate when you want to. You can tell people, hey, I'm picking next week or hey, I'm picking in February and that's fine. They have no other options.

Well, I appreciated your musical chairs analogy, though I'm still going to wait for Scott Boris to weigh in with the official description of this year's free aging class and whether this off season is like a regatta or whatever nautical analogy he chooses to use. However, I did want to say, because I didn't adequately praise the Phillies when we were talking about the World Series. And I will note that in my article, I did hand it to the Astros. I also within the article handed it to the Phillies as well and celebrated their run that they made. And I think they're kind of an argument in favor of going wild in free agency right and you could say that that the padres are that too the opponent that they beat i guess more so on the trade market than free agency but a bit of both but really like the phillies they tried to do what the astros did right and to think to some extent and rebuild yeah and it completely sputtered and stalled out and it looked like they weren't going to be good

and then they did the only thing they could do other than start over at that point, which is bring in Dave Dombrowski and have him spend some money, which they did. And it worked and it almost worked in the best possible way. It didn't work quite as well as it did for the 2019 Nationals, but within a couple games of working that well. And really like they were no one's idea of ideal roster construction or like elegant team building or efficient spending or any of that but as it turned out like they needed really every last win and every last dollar that they spent and they are the walking proof of the old maxim about how you just have to get into the playoffs.

And after that, anything can happen. So much as I dislike the expanded playoff field, if you're someone who enjoys playoff chaos, then I think they were a fine argument in favor of it. And they are also an excellent argument for spending and for signing some players who could potentially put you over the top because all you have to do is get there. You don't necessarily have to be a great team. You can still beat great teams in October. And of course, they did it in an extremely fun and exciting way. know if he dictates the direction of the market or whether he's just so singular that there's no real facsimile of him that we'll sort of be waiting to see where he signs. Who knows? But I'm talking about Aaron Judge, who, as you said, coming off this amazing season. And as you noted, like this free agent class could have been even richer than it was, not just with Diaz, but Nolan Aranato, who we talked about. He very well could have been a great free it was, not just with Diaz, but Nolan Aranato, who we talked about, he very well could have been a great free agent, Adam Wainwright, et cetera. But judged on his own,

just that's a ton of intrigue there. Where he will go, I know you don't know, no one actually knows, but the terms are pretty interesting to me and no one knows what those will be either. But you did have to guess and the fancrafts readers the the crowd-sourced audience they also speculated and so what do you give a guy who is coming off one of the best seasons ever but is also gonna turn 31 in april and doesn't have the greatest health track record and no matter how good he is, almost can't be as good as he was this season. So you know that there's some amount of regression coming, even though when you factor in the regression, he still projects to be one of the very best players

in baseball. Yeah, I'm not certain that the number of years I projected Judge for is right. I projected him to get a nine-year contract at $35 million per year. I went more back and forth on the number of years than on the average annual value. And I know that's kind of a weird way to get at it, but I feel like players kind of think that way too. And that number is higher than Anthony Rendon's average annual value, which is kind of a target a lot of players seem to be shooting for. I think the crowd had it a year shorter, but for more and i think that someone's going to give him on that order of contract it it kind of makes sense if you do some reasonable projecting

based on his you know now vastly improved 2023 projections right he was really good this year and that makes us improve our opinion of how good he is you know that, that's just logical. If you can have a season this good, we should probably change how good we think you probably are true talent, because he did a lot of things right that I probably thought, oh, he can't possibly put all that together in one year. Yeah, clearly he can. And that that raises the likelihood he can do it again. He's going to hold up parts of the market, I think, just because there are a lot of teams who would like to sign Aaron Judge, obviously, but who if they don't, can also sign a shortstop or something like that. And so he'll get to decide when he wants to sign. And the guys who are the runner-up prizes for

Aaron Judge won't as much. I think that he's probably gonna go back to the Yankees. I don't have any inside information of any type on that. To be clear, if you do, we should stop recording so that you can go write about your inside information. It just makes, it seems to me like it's very hard to leave New York when you get to be Aaron Judge in New York in this like, you know, the brightest star at the center of the universe kind of way.

Yeah. And it's hard for the Yankees to let him leave. I think just given the season he just had. I mean, they've let players walk away before. They let Robinson Cano leave to invoke another member of the Jared Kelnick trade. But it would be tough. It would be a big PR egg on their face. Yeah, after this year or two.

It seems very unlikely to me. And I know he's from out here. I've driven through the town where Aaron Judge is from. It's very nice. It's small. It's near San Francisco How did he fit in it? Jokes

I don't see him leaving the Yankees I would personally enjoy watching Aaron Judge a lot of times per year So to the extent that I have A horse in this race I'd love to see him out here, Aaron let me know But I just think he's going to stay with the Yankees extent that i have a a horse in this race i'd love to see him out here aaron let me know but i just think he's going to stay with the yankees and i also think that kind of takes the yankees

out of the running for a lot of the short stops who they would otherwise sign and that that kind of sets things up cleanly they can go back to playing kinder falafel and burying two prospects in the minors you know doing whatever the yankees do with short stops. Yeah, that was going to be my next question. If we assume, again, not knowing from an insider perspective, but just if we assume that he does leave, let's say he wants to be in the Bay Area or let's say the Dodgers are just like, screw it, or Steve Cohen wants to make a big investment

in a pointed kind of way, which is what wooing Aaron Judge across town would constitute. What do you think the odds are that the Yankees decide, you know, maybe we're not satisfied with Volpe and Peraza. Maybe we do want to play in the shortstop space. What do you think the odds are of that? And then maybe let's just use that as an opportunity to talk about the shortstop class more generally. So I actually think that if the Yankees don't retain Judge for whatever reason,

they don't want to, or he wants to go somewhere else, that the player would make the most sense for them to sign is Xander Bogarts. He's really good. So that's the key. I think they'd want to sign somebody who's really good. That's like the number one most important part by a lot. I care a lot less about positional fit than whether you can sign somebody who's really really like all-star level every year kind of good why would you say something so controversial yet so great i feel like uh i feel like people don't take that

into account enough they say like well we've got a hole here no just look what the phillies just did you were just talking about it like the real elegance is in realizing that you can transmute anything into wins as long as you get a lot of it. And Bogarts fits that. But he also fits something else that is useful for them, which is that in two years, he could play a different position in the infield very conceivably. And they could have these shortstop guys that they love and that probably are good. I don't know. It's hard to say. They could be Jared Kalanick love and that probably are good. I don't know. You know, it's hard to say they could be Jared Kalanick, but they're probably good.

And so I imagine it would feel kind of strange for them to not have Correa for this year for 2022. So to have their stop gap, who they look, Isaiah kind of left is not as good as Carlos Correa. I'm just all the hot takes today. So like, but they,

they purposefully didn't go as big as they could have in the shortstop market last year. You do, in fact, have to hand it to Isaiah Kiner-Fleck. Boy, you really don't want to not do that. I'll tell you that. I have personal experience. That's a deep cut reference to the positional power rankings. We just got done editing and writing a really big thing. We can't think about another really big thing that's unkind yeah but it would be very strange to have your stop gap for a year and then sign the guy that you could have signed

who would have been really good i don't think there's any question kareo is going to be good this year and he was but like then just actually sign him after skipping him for a year of his prime for no obvious reason like the past is the past and there's sunk cost fallacy that they should ignore, but I just can't see them doing that. Bogarts kind of fits what they profess to want to do, which is hand over shortstop to these, to one of these two young guys and probably second and short to the two of

them and everything pans out while still being a part of the team in the future. They really don't need Josh Donaldson on that team. Yeah. Like I understand why they did it, but they no one's gonna be like ah Josh Donaldson's out of the lineup how are we gonna hit and it probably wouldn't be an issue because Bogarts is almost certainly gonna play shortstop in 2023 unless one of the young guys comes up and it's just dazzling and they say all right well we're gonna have a super infield defense kind of team

and so move him to third I think that he makes the most sense for them. And oh, man, like, you know, that'd be fun to stick it to the Red Sox, too. So a little bit of a bonus there. I don't think that they're going to go crazy at the top end of the pitching market. Just doesn't doesn't seem like their MO. Like they did it with Garrett Cole. And I don't it doesn't strike me as like they're going to try to carry two of those guys given the rest of the roster i think resigning jameson tyone would make a lot of sense i i assume that he likes pitching there because they did a lot

to change the way he pitches in a way that he seemed to really like and it made him better so if i were them i would be trying to resign tyone and if i were tyone i mean from all outward appearances he likes pitching in new york and definitely his pitching profile likes pitching if I were them, I would be trying to resign Tyone. And if I were Tyone, from all outward appearances, he likes pitching in New York and definitely his pitching profile likes pitching there, aside from the fact that the park's tiny. But that happens to everyone. So that hits any pitcher who goes there. They shouldn't care about that. I think that he'd be a good fit for the team. I think he's going to be kind of a hot commodity, though. If you look at how he remade himself into a four-seamer guy, there's upside there. And so I don't know if it'll be easy for them to re-sign him, but I think they'll look for kind of that tier of pitching talent and hopefully judge, but maybe someone else instead. York, who presents sort of a thorny, complicated situation. Jacob deGrom, who is always older than I think he is, even though I've had that thought repeatedly. And you would think by now I would

have adjusted my expectations for how old he is. But no, I haven't. He's 34. Wow, that's older than I thought he was. But he obviously presents a compelling case in that when he is healthy, he is the best pitcher in baseball. However, there is just constant anxiety about whether he's healthy and how often he'll be healthy and how he will age, etc. So what kind of deal do you imagine that he would seek or that teams would want to give him? I guess the shorter the better from teams perspective, probably. So where will that compromise come out? I project DeGrom to get the largest by-year contract in baseball history. And I think that's not outlandish. It's a Max Scherzer-esque deal to a pitcher who is better when healthy than Scherzer. I'd say inarguably. Pique DeGrom is

a top five pitcher ever, probably. And Pique Scherzer is great, but he's not that. And he's also older going into the deal. So I projected him for three years and $47 million. And if you think that $47 million is an exact projection based on my extreme baseball expertise and all that, no, I mean, it's more than 45. Each year, to be clear, not in total. Yes, $47 million each year.

So definitely the biggest average annual value of any contract in sports history. I think that that's just the kind of contract that makes the most sense for DeGrom. They say there's no such thing as a bad one-year contract. It's obviously not completely true. But the idea... Signing to one would be bad. Right. Or like signing... Let's say you wanted to sign carlos

correa really badly but you gave him one 300 i'd probably tell you like you could just you know same amount of money but just get him for more years but i think the shape of contract shorter years like two to three years for de grom but a really big amount of money per year is just like a natural fit for a guy with his profile. You worry that if he gets hurt, you know, a few more times that he's not going to be the same. You worry that he won't be available. I would be very hesitant to sign DeGrom to a five-year contract or an eight-year contract. It's just, it feels worrisome.

He's not always making it through the season healthy. Although he had been a model of health until recently. He just throws too dang hard now. Ben's been trying to tell him, you know, but he doesn't listen to the podcast. Just slow down. Yeah. I assume he just cannot, you know, that's just not how it works. But when he is available, he's the best.

Like you said, he's the best. And so you should be willing to pay a lot of money for that, especially because the teams who will be paying a lot of money for DeGrom are good. The Orioles are not going to sign Jacob DeGrom and hope that that kind of catapults them from a 500 team to the playoffs. You know, the Reds aren't signing Jacob DeGrom. Sorry, Orioles and Reds fans. But the teams that are signing him can both expect to have him for the playoffs, most likely, which is where pitchers of his type have magnified importance because they can pitch two times in a five game series or whatever. And also that means your opponent doesn't have him. And the kind of teams you play in the playoffs are likely to be the kind

of teams who would be signing Jacob deGrom if you weren't. It's like if the Dodgers signed deGrom, they're taking him away from the Mets and the Braves. I don't think the Braves would actually sign him. But if the Astros signed deGrom, they're taken away from the Yankees. Again, I don't think the Astros will sign DeGrom. But if you're a team like that, you should want to both have this kind of best in the game starting pitcher and not let your opponents have it. It's kind of a double win there. And that just works out to me to paying a bunch of money, but not for forever. Like if you invest $250 million into Grom and then he's hurt and doesn't play that much, that feels a lot worse, regardless of how many years it's for, than if you invest $135. And so I just think that's where it's going to end up with a really eye-popping average

annual value, but a short number of years. And whether I'm right exactly on the number, I mean, no clue. We had a lot of guys who were on last year's top 50 return to this year's top 50, which was weird and also caused some funkiness in some of our crowdsourcing results. Sorry, everyone. But some part of that we can attribute to just how strange the free agent market was last year with the impending lockout and guys wanting to sign shorter deals that they could then revisit a year later and try to get something both longer term and more lucrative. are candidates for sort of that same deal. Not, not guys like DeGrom or even Verlander where, you know, they are,

they're older, they're injury concerns, both they and teams might want to go year to year to see sort of what they're able to get if they stay healthy and are able to pitch a bunch, but guys who, you know, might look to do something surprisingly short and then, and then sort of catapults a year or two later.

Yeah. Okay. I'll give you a few of those. do something surprisingly short and then and then sort of catapults a year or two later yeah okay i'll give you a few of those so one that's kind of a strange one is tyler anderson and he's old maybe you know baseball old not real life old he's younger than i am by a fair amount but he was bad on the rockies i'm not going to sugarcoat it and the dodgers you know changed the way he pitches somewhat and he worked with them and all credit to both sides he was really good this year I don't think he's gonna get paid like that if he wanted to sign a five-year deal and he was a four-win pitcher this year he had a two five seven era and pitched 180 innings he was like incredible and he's just not gonna get paid

like that so if he thinks hey man like I haven't made that much money in my career I've've made like nice money. I've made retire forever money, but I haven't made my kids are wealthy forever money. So why not just gamble, sign a one year deal and try to hit a really big payday next year? You know, try to be really good again this year, obviously. But if he is, I think he could he could really hit it big next year because he was really good this year. And he was actually pretty good in 2021 too. He was already improving. So I think those are like those kinds of players where you don't know if you believe what changed, but if you do, it's going to be great. Like Carlos Verdone last year is a great example of this where, man,

was he good in 2021 and man, did no one offer him a great deal. The White Sox didn't even give him a qualifying offer. Yeah. That was baffling. Yeah, that was baffling. Yeah, that was baffling. But I mean, Anderson is not that good. But that kind of player is the kind of player who should think about a short-term deal. Tywin Walker, kind of a similar, I mean, much less, wow, explosive stuff than Anderson or Rodon.

But same kind of idea where he looked a lot better this year. And if teams are trying to kind of bake in some uncertainty discount in his contract, if I were him, I'd just say, you know what? What's the one year deal look like? And let's talk about this again in a year. That aside, I mean, Michael Conforto, is that cheating? No. I have no clue what's going to happen with Conforto.

He hasn't played in a long time. I guess theoretically he'd want to rebuild his value with a one-year deal. But he also might just want to get some cash. Yeah. I wouldn't hate that for him. And so I just don't have a good idea of his market at all, in either direction. Other than that, maybe the catchers. So Wilson Contreras, I don't think he's going to sign a one-year deal.

But I have heard, kind of scuttlebutt, that a lot of teams want to try him in the outfield. And man, I don't know if he's going to get the deal he wants if teams are seeing him as a kind of weakish defense outfielder slash DH slash first baseman. So that's a possibility. And then Omar Narvaez and Christian Vasquez. Catcher markets are always tough. And they could just say, there won't be any catchers next year either. And no one's giving me great offers. So why don't I just take a one-year deal and do this again next year? This actually hasn't happened as much as I thought.

I kind of assume there should be a catcher premium. You can never get good catchers in free agency. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever. And it's hard to get good catchers in free agency. Never, ever, ever, ever, ever. And it's hard to get good catchers at all. And so when catchers of any skill whatsoever hit the free agency market, I always think teams will pay up. Because, I mean, I'm a Cardinals fan, so this hasn't really happened to me a lot. But I'm also a baseball fan, and I've seen a lot of teams. And it's always just like, oh my god, like, who do we have a catcher?

Right. It's like three guys, and I don't even know who any of them are. And like, all of them hit 180 with a 220 on base percentage it feels to me like teams should pay up for any kind of catching certainty at all and it hasn't really happened like young gum signed a two-year deal worth 13 million dollars in total he did not indeed cash in on the catcher premium and i i'm not sure these guys will either but if were them, I'd be willing to take a short-term deal to bet on it. Jeff Passan reported

after the World Series was over that Dusty Baker evidently had nixed a trade that the Astros were working on where they would have acquired Wilson Contreras and the Cubs would have gotten, what, Jose Urquidy? Yeah.

Or a package centered on him. And I saw some Astros fans like, damn it, Dusty, you should have made that deal it's like maybe but you just won the World Series like like don't want to mess with anything like you don't want any kind of shouldn't it say great work Dusty Baker

you kept the Sosa-Archidi and also won the World Series yeah exactly right yeah and you don't want to mess with any butterfly effect here that could have happened something different if Archidi had not been there and Contreras had. I mean, before the fact, sure, you could say maybe that would have been a good move. Maybe not. But after the fact, I think you probably have to be pretty content with the way

things worked out. How much more money will Trey Turner get because he has a hype video narrated by Jon Hamm? I haven't watched it yet. I've heard it's excellent. I heard that John Hamm says Fangraphs in it and also F4. So now we get to... That should be your ringtone or something. Yeah. What a nice treat.

There's no doubt Trey has become one of the best position players in the game today. You need some facts to back it up? Since 2019, he's been the second best position player in baseball, according to Fangraphs, with 20.1 F1. Don Draper saying Fangraphs. Isn't John Hamm a Cardinals fan? He is. Famously. Yeah. What's up with that? I guess he's-

He lives in LA. Yeah. He's an actor. He reads lines that do not reflect his personal beliefs. That's what acting is, I suppose. I assume it was a paid gig and not just fandom of Trey Turner. consensus or i guess the opposite someone you're wary of but someone who if you're investing your funny free agent hypothetical dollars you would be eyeing more so than you would be eyeing other players who were perhaps in a comparable class well if any team wants to sign me to you know actually allocate their real money as gm to be clear team if you're listening um hit me up yeah no entry level positions underscore ben underscore clemens yeah remember underscore yes okay i'll give you three guys who i think could return better value and one who i think is being overrated by the broader community

of people doing this and then tell me which minor league free agents you would sign? So I would, I really, really, really like Taylor Rodgers relative to the consensus. Taylor Rodgers has been a really good reliever for a number of years. Taylor Rodgers was not even a bad reliever this year. He had a lousy September, just like an absolutely gobsmackingly lousy september for the brewers but i mean people think he was bad on the padres he was not bad on the padres he ran a 333 babbitt and a 60 left on base rate both of which are just now wildly bad uh and despite that had a 234 fib i guess that's not despite that, but if you strip that out, he was really good. He was really good last year. He was really good in 2020.

Like he was really good in 2019. He was really good in 2018. He just seems like an obvious, nice reliever, bulk up the back end of your bullpen just easily. And I don't know, people think that, you know, he gave up some home runs, so he's bad now. It just, it doesn't make that much sense to me. So I've seen that people think he's a borderline top 50 free agent that's wild to me if you could sign him for that kind of money just do it one that i'm like not going to harp on too long because i've already talked about a little bit is tyler anderson i think he's good and if he would take one of these like discounted deals you should sign him to that because i think he's actually great now. He does this.

Take all the Tylers and Taylors. Yeah. He does Dan Clements. I'll put them on the angels just to, just for your guys maximum. Enjoy that. So Tyler Anderson throws not just two different fastballs, but from two wildly different arm slots.

So against lefties, he's like a side arming sinker cutter, like slider guy. And then against righties, he's more over side-arming, sinker, cutter, slider guy. And then against righties, he's more over the top. And he actually throws his cutter from the same position as his fastball to both sides. So if he's throwing his sinker, he throws it like five feet off the ground. And if he's throwing his four-seamer, he throws it six feet off the ground. And he mirrors his cutter to that.

And that's really cool. He started doing it last year and has really leaned into it this year. And I think that actually makes him a lot better than he was before because he's now just two different pitchers and you know he's the platoon maximizing type against lefties the uh like low arm slot sinker slider and then he's the platoon neutral guy against righties you know the kind of high arm slot four seam change up type and that's really cool i guess it's more cutter than change up but he's got a bunch of pitches is the point. And his ability to kind of mix and match those, I think is really valuable and not easy to pick out from the numbers. Teams will pick this out, obviously

they're, they're no dummies, but I think that his particular mix of pitches is very useful. I think I said slider when I was talking about him in Metcutter, but the point remains. The way that he changes his pitches to opposite-handed batters, I think makes him play up relative to what you'd look at from his stuff. And he was really good this year. So I would try to get him. Lastly, for people I think will kind of outperform is Brandon Nimmo. And maybe I'm just low on the Nimmo contract. I'm higher than the crowd and I'm higher than most people have seen, but he's an above average defensive center fielder with a career on base percentage that is just absolutely outrageous. He's 30. He's not super old. He just had a five war season and it didn't look fluky, right? Like he ran a 317 BABF. It wasn't anything outrageous. He's just really, really good. And

he's really good in a way that looks sustainable. He has enough power that you can't just try to throw things by him. He doesn't swing and miss a lot. He takes a ton of walks and sprints to first base afterwards. He's not like an albatross in the bases. There's just a lot to like there. And it's hard to get players like that who can play a credible center field and provide credibly plus offense. And most of those guys are household name superstars.

Like, is he that different than George Springer? I don't really see him being that different than George Springer. And George Springer got a bag coming out of COVID. He got 6-150. Yeah. I think I'd like this Nimmo as much as I'd like that Springer. And I don't know. He's just not being valued that way.

So if you can get him that kind of number, I like it. A guy who I'm down on and I don't know, he's just not being valued that way. So if you can get him that kind of number, I like it. A guy who I'm down on and I don't like being down on because I like the guy quite a lot is Josh Bell. Yeah, you and Bauman were ready to fight over Josh Bell. Yeah, former member of Josh Bell's book club because I think he stopped doing it. That was when he was on the Nats. I would still be a current member if I could be.

It was really cool. It was during COVID. And I really like hearing him talk about books. He would go on a Zoom with all of us and talk about books once a month. So cool. Yeah, it was very awesome. So there's a lot to like about Josh Bell. One thing not to like is that there are better first basemen. I don't quite believe that Josh Bell is the Josh Bell of the first half from this year. He looked kind of bad on the Padres and he just hasn't had a sustained run of success where he's better than an average bat first baseman. That just feels like the kind of player who falls into the muddle and teams can replace a lot of it with minor leaguers and where I just don't feel good about giving somebody a long-term deal at first base like that. I'd much rather have

Anthony Rizzo, for example. And I've seen a lot of contract projections for Bell that are in the Rizzo territory. And I don't know, man, like you're going to have a hard time convincing me that that makes the most sense. Again, I could definitely be wrong on this one. It's just, I am not a big believer in these, you know, first base corner outfield types with not outstanding bats. Maybe he's just a, maybe you just sign him to play DH and he's JD Martinez, but better. But I just feel like the track record's not there for me to believe that he's like, if you told me for sure, he'd be 20% above average offensively next year.

I would say like, yeah, okay. Like, fine, let's do it. But I don't think that's like for sure locked in. I don't think that it's obvious to me that he's going to be that good. And if it's not, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to me because he's not going to come super cheap. I don't think for someone with no positional flexibility whatsoever. Yeah. perhaps even shorter kind of deal. So there are some interesting ones. There's Senga, of course, coming from NPB. And I'm always fascinated by the deals that those guys get

and how their stuff will translate. So we'll be talking about free agency pretty much nonstop because it will actually be a thing this offseason. Yes. So that's nice. And as of November 10th, it will be a free agent, free for all. And anyone can sign anywhere at any time. So there will be lots to discuss.

And perhaps we will discuss it again with Ben. He will certainly be writing about it for Fangraphs and tweeting about it, as he noted on Twitter, at underscore Ben underscore Clemens. And maybe we will have you back for the minor league free agent draft. I guess it's all. Don't be a coward. Let's go. It's all upside, I guess, for us now because he cleaned our clock so completely in his first attempt that really like he's already established his dominance and all that can

happen in the next go round is that maybe he doesn't do so well. And then it looks like the first year was just a fluke he got lucky it's not actually his true talent you guys don't invite me back like i obviously can't turn it down that would just retire just cat flip just walk away wait we will not be cowards and you can be busy that's fine like both of those things are it's fine you know if we we're going to shirk from, from strong competition. We want to, we want to beat the best

to prove we are the best, Ben. Well, I can give you my secret. I can tell you exactly what I did last year. You, you drafted

Jose Iglesias. Hey, hey, I drafted a lot of other players too. Yeah. You did. But I just, I looked at the list

from Baseball America and then I just like looked at all the players on fan graphs and I was like, oh, that guy seems good. That guy doesn't seem good. And then I just, I looked at the list from Baseball America. And then I just like looked at all the players on fan graphs. And I was like, oh, that guy seems good. And that guy doesn't seem good. And then I just made a list of yeses and maybes. And I just picked from them somewhat arbitrarily after that. So it was not like rocket science, but it did take a few hours. Like there's a lot of players.

Yeah. You got to be willing to crunch some tape and do some work on these things. Yeah. That definitely happened. So you used your own website that you work for and the resources there. And it sounds unfair. I don't work for Fangraphs. Can I even look at Fangraphs?

Is that even available to me? I should have asked Jon Hamm. I should admit there was a guy on a trash can during the draft banging on the trash can when it was my turn to pick to let me know that i'm going to pick oh scandal a guy from the future came back to again all right court well thank god giving you months of warning here so if you say that you're too busy to do it i won't really believe you so i guess if we do invite you you do have to kind of come on and defend your title that sounds good to me okay it's a date we just don't know which date yet thank you Ben yeah thanks for having me guys okay I will leave you with one last bit of World Series related content courtesy of our past blaster Jacob Pomeranke because this is indeed the past blast for episode 1926. And it comes from 1926 and also from Jacob, who is Sabre's director of editorial content and chair of the Black Sox Scandal Research Committee.

And he said he was already considering using this for 1926. And then what happened in game four of the series cemented his decision. So he titles this 1926 the first World Series no-hitter. Don Larson's name was mentioned a lot last Wednesday, but 30 years before his famous perfect game in the 1956 World Series, a Negro Leagues pitcher by the name of Claude Red Greer made history first by pitching a no-hitter in Game 3 of the 1926 World Series between the backrack giants of Atlantic City and the Chicago American Giants, the pennant winners of the two major black baseball leagues that season.

Here's how John Howe of the Pittsburgh Courier described the action that day. Sent to the showers ignominiously in the second inning of the second World Series game, Claude Red Greer, left-handed hurling ace of the backrack giants of Atlantic City, came back with a vengeance at Maryland ballpark this afternoon in the third series game and set the Westerners down to a 10-0 defeat. In the course of the nine innings, the Jersey Shore pitcher did not allow the visitors from the Windy City a single hit, and in the carrying out of this sacred duty, he fanned eight. His victory evened the count in the series, as did the Astros in game 4, I would note, although in this case, it was Game 3, so if you're wondering, well, how did a Game 3 outcome even the series? Game 1 was

a tie. Actually, Game 4 would turn out to be a tie too. Ties. They're okay. They're better than the zombie runner. I repeat, his victory evened the count in the series and sent thousands of backrack rooters into high-geared happiness. Greer breezed through the last three innings easily. backrack rooters into high-geared happiness. Greer breezed through the last three innings easily. He walked five men just to see how it felt to pitch an epic game and take a few real chances in the bargain. In addition to pitching an almost perfect game, Greer also had a perfect day with the stick, recording three hits and a walk. And Jacob concludes, Red Greer's no-hitter even made headlines in major white newspapers like the Chicago Tribune and Philadelphia Inquirer. Despite their historic loss in Game 3, the Chicago American Giants rallied to win the

Negro League World Series over Atlantic City five games to four in the best-of-nine series. So the series actually went 11 games with the two ties. Not saying that we should have ties in the World Series. Please play to completion. Jacob also notes that the next year in a World Series rematch in 1927, Greer's teammate Luther Red Ferrell pitched another no-hitter for the Backrock Giants in Game 5, and the American Giants again came back to win their second consecutive title, five games to three. These were the only two no-hitters ever thrown in the Negro League World Series, which was played until 1948. And you know who played in that 1948 Negro League World Series? A 17-year-old

kid named Willie Mays, who will be the subject of our next episode. All right, that's a season wrap on 2022. Thanks for listening all year long with us, and thanks for continuing to listen. By the way, after we finished recording, Angels GM Perry Manazian said that Shohei Otani would start the 2023 season with the Angels, that he would not be traded over the offseason. So I suppose while we're speculating about free agents, we don't really need to speculate about Otani trades, though I will note that the Angels are in the process of being sold. So if a new owner comes in and says, actually, we are trading Shohei Otani, and perhaps I'm hiring a new GM, then I guess Perrymanazian wouldn't be the one in charge of

making that decision. But I don't know that that will happen on a short enough time frame for Otani to be traded. And why would you buy the Angels and then trade Shohei Otani? I mean, I can think of some reasons, but if I were going to buy the Angels, it would be because of Shohei Otani. Though my motivations may not be the same as the highest bidder for the team. Hey, by the way, quick PSA, if you are listening to this and you're eligible to vote in the American midterm elections, and there's still time for you to do that, go do it. We'll be doing it. We encourage you to do it. We encourage everyone to do it. Go uphold democracy. It needs our help these days. You can put us in your ears and we will come to the polls with you. Just put

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And you can join or at least browse and lurk at the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing and production assistance today and all season long. We will be back with another episode extremely soon. Talk to Dylan Higgins for his editing and production assistance today and all season long. We will be back with another episode extremely soon. Talk to you then. Do you know where you belong? Is your star sign ever long?