Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1959: A Tale of Two Broadcasts

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the yips, more ways in which baseball is different from other sports, big leaguers playing against kids, and Rogers Centre’s new dimensions, plus a Past Blast (36:49) from 1959. Then (41:54) they talk to Sam Blum and Fabian Ardaya of The Athletic and Pedro Moura of Fox Sports […]

Hello and welcome to episode 1959 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Reilly of Fangraphs and I'm joined as always by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? Doing well. How are you? I'm well. Did you watch any playoff football this weekend, Ben? Can't say I did. So, it doesn't matter now because his Dallas Cowboys have been eliminated from the postseason because they lost to the Niners. But there was brief talk about the Cowboys kicker having the yips.

Yes, I was aware of that. Yeah, because in last weekend's contest against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, which the Cowboys won handedly because the Bucs are bad. He missed, I believe, four extra point opportunities and then had his first extra point of yesterday's contest blocked. And then I was not prepared for how concerned I would be about him. I felt deep feeling for a person I've never met and whose name, candidly, at this exact moment they were recording, escapes me.

People are like, why haven't you said his name yet,gan and you know the answer is because i can't remember right now it's matt brett brett marr marr yeah is that how you say it m-a-h-e-r maybe i remembered but i was worried i'd say it wrong could be true anyhow that's just a little bit of football baseball crossover from me to you ben who doesn't care about one of those two yeah well i was concerned for him too to the extent that i was paying attention because he had he made his final kick in the game where he missed four right and everyone was sort of celebrating that he'd gotten back on track and that they'd left him out there and he'd proved himself on that kick and then he did okay in practice from what i read well but there was there i think there were some dust-ups between between him and the the niners right yeah yeah

and then the first kick was blocked yes did everything go okay after that or was he not tested or well i mean like for him personally for his team more broadly no but uh he he recovered but they noted on the broadcast and i think i agree that even if that kick hadn't been blocked, I think it would have been wide. So I was just sitting there like, oh, God, I'm so, you know, my beloved Seahawks got eliminated by those same Niners the weekend prior. So sometimes I sit there and I'm like, am I going to be able to muster feeling in the postseason?

And the answer, and that answer should not surprise me because I've lived as myself for 36 years now, is like, yes, anxiety is always available to you, Meg. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone instantly just feels terrible for people who have the yips in any field, right? I mean, it's maybe most commonly associated with baseball, at least that term, but just as common in golf, if not more common. So it is not solely a baseball phenomenon. And yeah, your heart goes out to anyone who is feeling that. And you just imagine yourself in that situation and you feel powerless

to help the person and you don't know what to do because you want to not call attention to it, because calling attention to it might be worse and might put more pressure on the person. But how can you not? So it's just this dilemma for all involved, really. And no one knows what to do and how to talk about it. And you just sort of cross your fingers and hope that the person is OK. is okay. It's just, it's always one of the most agonizing, uncomfortable experiences in sports, obviously, for the people involved, most of all, but even for people watching at home. And sometimes it's fleeting, right? Sometimes it's just a touch of the yips, and then it goes away and disaster

is averted. And other times it just settles in and takes up residence and no one knows how to exercise it. So hopefully this will be the former kind of case. Yeah, hopefully. Fingers crossed. Yeah. It does tend to be in situations where you have time to think about what you're doing, right? So in baseball, it's often a throwing related thing, right?

You don't hear so much about hitting yips. I mean, I guess there's sort of something along those lines, but really it's like the ball's coming at you. Your mechanics can get screwed up, but there isn't time to think and contemplate the action that you're about to perform. Whereas if you're a pitcher who has all the time in the world to throw, or if you're a fielder in the field who has time to gather themselves, and they always say that it's the plays where you have time to set yourself and think about it. If it's a bang, bang, kind of just love it and get rid of it play, then often it goes smoothly. But yeah, a pitcher readying themselves to throw, a golfer

setting up to hit the ball, and I guess a kicker getting ready to kick, right? There's just a lot of time to think and sometimes sometimes thinking is bad yeah i mean i think cody bellinger might disagree about the potential existence of hitting yips but i think your your broad point is the correct one it's like i've said to you before it's a lot like braiding your hair you know the minute you think about doing that you end up with this tangled knot of something that you just maybe have to cut off to get rid of so yeah anyway i didn't prep you for that opening but i was thinking about it as we were getting ready to record and i thought i'm gonna tell my good friend ben about this bit of anxiety i had on behalf of a stranger i was prepped i'm plugged in i wasn't watching i didn't care about the

football but i'm just i want you to know i didn't care about this but i was made aware of it isn't that the online experience just in a nutshell? Right. I'm a person in the world. I can't help but be aware of these things. I work for a pop culture and sports website. It pays to stay apprised. So we are going to devote most of this episode to an interview.

We are going to be talking to three writers who cover either the Angels or the Dodgers or have covered either the Angels or the Dodgers or have covered either the Angels or the Dodgers or both the Angels and the Dodgers, Fabian Ardaia, Sam Blum, and Pedro Mora, because we've wanted for a while to talk about Jaime Jorin and the legacy of Jorin, the just legendary Dodgers broadcaster, 64 years behind the mic for the Dodgers doing the Spanish language broadcasts and has just finally hung up the microphone at the end of last season. So we've been looking for an opportunity to talk about him and his career and what he means to that franchise and the fan base.

But we're going to pair that with a discussion of the Angels and how they have handled Spanish language broadcasts because there's quite a contrast there. And Sam Blum, he wrote last week for The Athletic about how the Angels have nickel and dimed their Spanish language broadcasts and broadcaster and have at times taken him off the air or made him a part-time employee. Just sort of typical Angel stuff, but very egregious given just the enormous Spanish speaking audience in Southern California that it seems like the Angels are just entirely conceding to the Dodgers. And that's been a big thing for the Dodgers, whated or not catered to those audiences, what that has meant to the Dodgers to cultivate that fan base, what the Angels could do to change things.

And will we briefly touch on Shohei Otani at the end of that conversation? Who can say? Perhaps, perhaps that will come up. I would not be shocked if maybe he were mentioned. Who could say? Have you, have you met Ben before? Who could say? I'll try to restrain myself as long as possible. But before we get to those guys, so the yips, not a phenomenon that is unique to baseball. This is something that multiple sports share. But continuing in the vein of qualities that set the sport apart, we have been bantering about this for a few episodes now. We sort of soft-launched this as a recurring segment.

I didn't know that it would become one. And then through various follow-ups and people suggesting things, it has suddenly become a staple. These things, you know, they ebb and flow. We talk about things for many episodes in a row, and then we don't talk about them after that. things for many episodes in a row and then we don't talk about them after that. But we have created a list and Raymond Chen, our Effectively Wild Wikikeeper, has curated a list of all the ways that we have suggested and that listeners have suggested that baseball is either unique or unusual among sports. So a few submissions for ways that baseball is either unique or unusual that we have received. So a few people have written in to suggest that golf, again, golf is similar in that it has yips, also similar in that it has multiple elevations and surfaces.

We were talking mostly about team sports when we talked about the fact that baseball is weird and that it has a mound. There is just a raised part of the field and sometimes other raised parts of the field. Last time we talked a little bit about the crowning on football fields, which is more subtle. But people have pointed out golf certainly has different elevations. I mean, you have tees and you have just courses that go up and down. That is, of course, true. And golf, like baseball, has multiple surfaces that people play on. Stipulated, not a team sport, at least

not usually. So it's a little different in that respect. But yes, people who have pointed that out, you are correct that golf is similar in that respect. So I'll mention this one from listener Justin, who writes in, if baseball were different, in what ways is that so? And he notes, one way in which baseball is unique is that there is an area of the playing surface that is only semi-in-play, foul territory. In basketball or soccer or hockey, out of bounds is out of bounds. You can leap toward the seats and save a ball from going out of bounds. In basketball, much like you can rob a home run in baseball or commit larceny on a home run in baseball. I'm still going to resist that. I'm sorry.

It's a callback to our pedantic conversation last time. But if you step out of the lines or the ball lands out of the lines, play is dead. In baseball, the lines for all type of play occurring, the foul lines to the fence, border an area where only some times of play occur, foul territory. In foul territory, some events, such as fly outs and line outs, do count, while others, such as a ground ball put out, don't count. In this way, foul territory is only sort of part of the playing surface. I think it's come up that foul territory can be different shapes and sizes, but its actual existence is itself a unique thing about baseball.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. We had a member of the Discord group because there was a discussion about this. And Norieoki's Root Tree is his username and suggested that maybe a corollary to this is that you can score in baseball by having the ball go out of play and into the crowd. And that that's sort of unusual and that sparked a healthy debate about whether there are comps to this and whether the soccer goal is actually on the field or not in the net and people decided that it was and then people talked about well what about to go back to our initial topic here. What about kicking one through the uprights and then the ball just continues on after that, but maybe the actual scoring takes place within bounds and then the

ball continues on out of bounds, right? Where you could argue that in baseball with a home run, the scoring, well, of course, technically the scoring happens not when the ball goes out of play, but when the runner crosses home plate, which is another distinction about baseball that we have discussed. Roger Angel's discussion about how it's not the ball that scores. It's a person who doesn't have the ball in a different place than the ball. But that scoring opportunity occurs when the ball goes out of play. So someone was arguing that a field goal in football and a home run are the same thing. The uprights are just way further apart in baseball.

But I don't know. I don't think that's quite the case. I think there is sort of a distinction to be made here. Well, it's funny because I think that technically the post is out of play. Like if you doink one off the off the upper what i mean is like the actual like the the foot of the goal post is out of play but i think you're right that like the it's parallel and the actual like like the the upright part is i'm not explaining this well anyway yeah that's that's a tough distinction to draw. It's a fine

distinction to draw. I guess going back to something we talked about last time, the strike zone being invisible and sort of suggested, I guess you could say the same about the uprights, right? Where if it goes in above the uprights, it's between the uprights, but above the uprights, then you sort of have to extrapolate, which I guess is also the case with the fair foul pole in baseball. If it goes above that, then you have to imagine where it was if it doesn't actually hit it. Not that that happens all that often. So this is one suggestion then about foul territory. And Richard Hershberger, then about foul territory. And Richard Hershberger, our past blast consultant, he happened to write in about virtually the same thing. So he wrote in to say, first of all, that a feature of baseball that

he believes to be truly unique is that a spectator can, under certain narrowly defined circumstances, legitimately, directly, physically affect the course of a game. And relatedly, along the lines of what Justin was saying, there are random people and equipment in foul territory, which is for some purposes within the field of play. And come to think of it, foul territory itself. It's game seven of the World Series, the bottom of the ninth with one man on and two outs, the home team down by one run. The batter hits a towering fly ball that comes down in fair territory, just barely over the outfield fence. The outfielder has ample time to position himself to make a leaping catch over the fence.

But at the last instant, a fan puts his hand out above the outfielder's glove and catches the ball. This is a World Series winning home run. The fan is a hero. They put him in the victory parade and his money is no good in any bar in town. This is the anti-Bartman ball. The fan was entirely within his rights because the catch was made on the fan's side of the fence. The fan's space is clearly separated from the player's space, but the fan and the players are physically able to reach over the separation.

A player can reach into the fan's space, and if he makes the catch, he makes the out, but the fans are not obliged to get out of his way. Fan interference only applies when a fan reaches over into the player's space. I can't think of any other sport where the players and the fans can operate in the same space, much less where the fan is not obligated to get out of the way. And he concludes, this is a holdover from the early days of the game, when there were no physical barriers between the players and the fans. If the ball went into the crowd, the player waited in to retrieve it. If there were carriages lined up along the outfield fence and the ball went under them,

the outfielder followed, carefully avoiding getting kicked by a horse. As ballparks added physical barriers, these were understood to serve practical purposes not to create a conceptual boundary between the playing field and out-of-bounds. Another vestige of this is the presence in foul territory of equipment and people not actively engaged in the game. A fielder going after a foul ball might climb up the rolled up tarp and the ball girl might frantically pull her folding chair out of the way as a fielder comes charging in.

Foul territory is sort of, but not entirely within the field of play. So it is policed for foreign objects less strictly than is fair territory. It really is a very weird concept. Within bounds for some purposes, but out of bounds for others. It's is a very weird concept within bounds for some purposes, but out of bounds for others. It's this odd liminal space that is- Liminal.

What is this, a TikTok among Zoomers? It is perhaps unique, certainly unusual among sports. So yeah, foul territory, the weird and wonderful phenomenon of foul territory. Because it's like the goalpost, at least in the NFL, the rules are different. Because it's like the goalposts, at least in the NFL,

the rules are different in the CFL for the goalposts. The goalposts itself, the part that makes contact with the ground is at the back of the end zone. But then I think that the actual up rates run parallel to the back of the end zone. They're parallel to the... And you can doink and go through, but you can't doink and come back into the field of play. Then it's not.

Then it doesn't count, Ben. Yeah. Maybe it should, but yeah. Well, yeah. And if it doinks and goes through, it should count for two. I mean, put me in charge of football. I'd change some stuff. I don't know if everyone would like it, but I'd have some notes.

I'd change some stuff. I don't know if everyone would like it, but I'd have some notes. And another suggestion came from listener David, who pointed out that, correct me if I'm wrong, by inning, telling the user a nice little story about how the score arrived to where it is. You can see the home team striking first, followed by a big inning by the away team, etc. It's as close to a win probability graph as you can get. The other team sports scoreboards will divide the game up into quarters or periods in hockey at most. I understand individual sports like bowling, golf, and tennis have very descriptive scoreboards, but among the big four team sports plus soccer,

baseball stands alone in this respect. I guess that is true. Maybe that is just kind of a corollary to the way that baseball is organized into nine innings as opposed to four quarters or three periods or whatever it is. Maybe it's just divided up into more discrete units and top half and bottom half of the inning as well. And so you could have a scoreboard that just told you the score and maybe the outs and the strikes and balls and all of that, but didn't actually tell you inning by inning or half inning by half inning, right? I mean,

what you need to know really is what is the score right now. You don't necessarily need to know how we got to that score, like what inning did they score in, but it gives you a fuller picture of the contest. It gives you more context. You can kind of piece together the game and reconstruct the game to some extent, even if you missed it. So it's maybe sort of unusual. I don't know whether it's scoreboard specific that it's unusual or just the structure itself is unusual. But one or the other. Yeah.

I also feel like I'm a little out of my depth because like the NFL stadium, and it's not the only thing that is played at what is now Lumen field, but the only NFL stadium I'm familiar with is Lumen field. And they have so many like video boards. You're right that there isn't like a static, there isn't the same sort of equivalent to the scoreboard that they have like it next door at t-mobile like generally i think what you see is you see the score you see the down and distance in football you see like what quarter it is and how much time is left in that quarter

and then the play clock like that's what is sort of on the video board the video board that like runs around the stadium and then the the big video boards will have more stats that are specific to like that maybe that series right so like you might have stuff on like average like down and distance or third down uh distance really if if the opposing team is on offense you might have information about like the number of sacks a particular player has or like uh the they do pass defense which we've talked about before as an atrocity we don't need to revisit it but i will say that it is still one you know but i don't know i don't know if there is a lot of standardization, which is maybe itself a difference between, say, football and baseball anyway.

But I don't feel like I have the authority to really comment because I again, I my exposure to other NFL stadiums is very limited. And I've seen many more baseball teams. But you're right. seen many more baseball teams but you're right I think it might be the difference between like a timed contest and a an innings based but untimed contest right

because like in football how much time remains in the quarter is like really important but we don't have that concept in baseball in the same way and so the whole thing is more leisurely you know so you kind of want to have a narrative in your scoreboard in a way that is maybe less important in at least football.

But I will not speak to other sports because I, again, I have even less authority there. Like a traditional basketball scoreboard doesn't tell you what the scores were each quarter, right? It just, it tells you like the visiting team and the home team and what their score is. And then, yeah, the shot clock and how much time is left and all that. But it doesn't always break it up into here's what the score was at the end of the first quarter and the second quarter and the third quarter. And it adds up to this sum, the current score. Whereas in baseball, you get the step-by-step in addition to the

current score so maybe sort of unusual yeah and then like um yeah i think that they normally will show you like the score you're still getting time generally and you're getting like what quarter you're in for basketball but you're right i I don't think that they all like break it out by quarter. And certainly like on the score bug, they don't. But I wouldn't be surprised, Ben. I mean, I think we'll always have the like inning by inning scoring stuff in a baseball stadium. But I would imagine given just the sheer proliferation of advanced stats

and all the stack cast metrics and stuff. If we enter a period where there is less standard, there is less of a standard across ballparks for that sort of thing. There's variation now in terms of the ancillary stuff that isn't the score, right? Where it's like some parks do a really good job of showing you like velocity and some really don't in a way that is super irritating so and some of the spring training ones don't either and it's like here you all have to yeah anyway it doesn't matter but um i wouldn't be surprised if we start to see more variation especially as teams move from like deprioritizing the mechanical scoreboards

and prioritizing the video ones. Because then you can just do, Ben, you can do whatever you want, you know. You don't have to build a thing. You just have to program with something or other. That's how that works, right? Sure. Yeah, sure. And here's the last submission. This is from Andrew, who says, I have hesitated to proffer this because I'm not sure it's unique so much as distinctive. But one of my favorite things about baseball is it's pleasing math. Three strikes, three outs, three bases, three times three innings, three times three players thrown off a bit by the DH. In contrast to the utilitarian math of football, four downs to go 10 yards. Even the more elegant equation of a touchdown equals a field goal times two has to be tinkered with via the extra point. So this is maybe somewhat subjective, but a pleasing symmetry, I suppose, when it comes to strikes and outs and bases and innings and players. It's all sort of this. Distances. Yeah, like this base three system that baseball seems to operate on, which, yeah, it's distinctive, certainly. Yeah, I don't know if it's unique, but it is definitely nice. There's something pleasing about it.

Yeah. Which is interesting since it's not like an increments of five thing, which we normally find very soothing. Yes. As numbers go, we're like, oh, I feel at home with this 10. Yes. But yeah, there's a pleasing symmetry about it for sure. Yes. Yeah.

We like round numbers, not always crooked numbers. We discussed what a crooked number is before. We'll get into that again. But one more follow-up. Last time we talked about how many people you would need on a field. I want to thank you, Ben. I want to thank you for bringing this to my attention. It made my whole day. We have to thank listener Vicky who brought it to my attention. Yeah, so we talked about, there was a listener email last time about how many 15-year-olds you would need on the field to keep a big league team close just so it wasn't a blowout.

And then how many 10-year-olds, how many 5-year-olds, et cetera. We decided that below a certain age, it just wouldn't matter how many people you had. Like there would be no way to keep the game close. But we entertained the idea that a certain number of 15-year-olds could keep the game close. So Vicky sent us this video. I believe it's from 2018 originally from a Japanese game show, which is always a good preface to anything. energy that gave you that viral video of Barry Bonds batting against a pitcher on a trampoline for a different Japanese game show or Shohei Otani hitting in VR against himself on another Japanese program. There's a lot of real life trials of effectively wild type hypotheticals

on these shows. So this one from 2018 was 100 children against three members of the Japan national soccer team. And at least in the clips I've seen, it seems like the members of the Japan national soccer team, the grownups, do not have too much difficulty running rings around the 100 kids. I mean, this is like the duck-sized horse, horse-sized duck kind of question. And this is like the duck-sized horse, horse-sized duck kind of question, and this is in real life. And I wonder whether this changes your thinking at all, having seen this play out in reality. No, I mean, these are little kids. Yes, that's right. These are quite little kids. So I think that, no, I do really appreciate how, and I think there's some commentary to this effect in the USA Today piece about it that you sent me, that they are clearly really concerned that if they hit the ball as hard as they usually do, that they are going to kill one of these children.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a factor. Someone in our Discord group thought that maybe we had underrated that factor when answering. Yes. Because, right, it seems that they're reluctant to just blast the ball.

They had many opportunities to score before they actually did. And clearly were like, I can't be on camera killing a kid, you know? Like the thing about it that's important here is that I not murder any of these children. The thing about it that's important here is that I not murder any of these children. And so in that respect, I think, yes, maybe there are parts of the game where there could be leeway given out of a concern for these children's safety. But I think one of the differences that baseball might present, well, maybe this cuts both ways. I was about to say, like, if you hit a home run, you don't have to worry about the kid, right? Because it's just going into the stands.

But there are a lot of hard-hit balls that in a normal major league, or maybe I should just say like professional context, find their way to a fielder and are fielded with a great aplomb and results in outs that would potentially not be fielded with such aplomb by a child and then would in fact injure that child so maybe there would be a hesitation like if you're you know if you're Aaron Judge going to the plate like what do what do you, what's your moral calculus, you know, about

hitting the ball hard? Because, sure, maybe more than anyone in baseball today, you could say, you know, with a batting practice, fastball, I can just park this thing in the seats. But like, what if you don't hit a home run, and the kid can't field

it, and then all of a sudden, you're the guy. You know? And and so i think that the younger the child in some ways you'd be less concerned because the odds that the kid even gets to the ball very small like the odds that the kid can like are we overrating the extent to which well i guess we were talking about 15 year olds 15 year olds can get the ball to the plate but if you have like a little little kid they were probably not even yeah that's the ball to cross yeah that's why yeah you can have infinite five-year-olds and it's just not gonna no but but yeah you're right we were kind of answering it as if the players would just play it straight

and sort of hit the way that they usually would hit, despite the fact that they're kids or teens in the field. So there's the possibility that they might take something off and be afraid to swing as hard. Even if not, there's also the very real possibility that all the fielders would be afraid to field what would be routine outs for a big leaguer, like a hard hit ball right at you. Big leaguer is generally going to get in front of it still. But a kid, a teenager, not necessarily. Just like a hundred plus mile per hour grounder that would be a routine out with a big league fielder, not necessarily for a kid who might opt for self-preservation. So that's why we're saying you might have layers of redundancy.

And so if it got past the first fielder, you'd have a second fielder behind him and then a third fielder behind them. And eventually, like it would slow down enough that someone would get it, I guess. But fear would be a big factor in that scenario on both sides. Fear by the batters, fear by the fielders yeah all right so lastly i i guess you know we talked about the tigers uh renovations and outfield fence dimension changes we now have an announcement about the blue jays yeah doing that something similar with roger center so the blue jays are uh moving the fences in the center field distance being reduced from 400 feet to 397, the left center power alley fence moving from 375 to 366, and the fence in the right center field power alley coming in from 375 to 357, which is not insignificant. And apparently to offset some of those changes, the fence height will be increasing by various feet at various points. So something like 10 feet to 15 feet at the corners in front of the bullpens, for instance. So it seems like an offense-friendly move, which is interesting because the Tigers were doing that in Comerica because it was a very hard park to hit homers in.

Not that extreme a pitcher's park overall because it enhanced other types of extra base hits. But tough place to hit homers. And there would be many hard hit deep fly balls to center, especially that would turn into outs. And that could be demoralizing for their hitters or so the thinking goes. You wouldn't really say that about the Blue Jays, right? And Rogers Center, which is not an extreme offense park either, at least going by baseball savant park factors, three-year factors. It's basically neutral. It's 99 where 100 is average and the home run factor is 108 so it actually slightly inflates home runs already

and deflates triples by a great amount which is kind of the opposite of Comerica so they are seemingly leaning into that and it will be maybe more clearly an offense friendly park and an even greater homer enhancing park depending on the fence heights so i guess you're going to get fewer larcenies slash robberies of of home runs which i'm always in favor of more of those and i think that's a perk of the comerica fence heights coming down but you're also going to get more big flies here and as we know the blue jays have a lot of boppers you know much more so than than the tigers do so they're gonna have some guys who didn't necessarily need help from the fences but this should particularly benefit their left-handed hitters which they haven't

really had any of late but but they've gone out and gotten brandon bell and dalton varsho and kevin kiermeier so it may help those guys more so. They've put more of an emphasis on outfield defense. Yes, they have three center fielders. Right. They had a so-so outfield defense, and then they went and got guys who were really good at playing outfield defense and traded away some who were not the best at that, which I guess you might think is kind of curious if they were going to reduce the square footage out there.

And in theory, I guess that could make it easier to play in some respects. Some people have suggested that it might be more difficult to play in other ways with weird angles and protrusions and such. But it's going to be a different outfield for sure and a different offensive profile here. So we saw the Orioles in the same division go in a more pitcher-friendly direction last year, which seemed to benefit them or certainly didn't hurt them. And the Blue Jays are kind of going in the opposite direction here. So I'm always fascinated by why teams decide to do this or why they decide to go in or

out so they're going in a different direction than the orioles did but different team different sort of situation yeah i wonder like what their outfielders their their current outfielders are thinking are they going like are they like licking their chops at an opportunity to to prove what they can do to boost their team? Or are they going, you know, wait a minute. I was thought I was brought here under false pretense. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I asked Sig Meidahl, the Orioles executive,

at the very end of last season, I was wondering what they thought the net effect of defense changes at Camden was for them because, of course, they changed the dimensions and then the Orioles took a great leap forward. So was that correlation or causation? And there's the old story about how the White Sox at Old Comiskey, driven by former Effectively Wild guest Dan Evans, Given by former Effectively Wild guest Dan Evans, they realized that they were getting jobbed on fly balls to the warning track and that if they just moved home plate out closer to the fence or whatever it was, that that might benefit them, that they would benefit disproportionately. And that seemed to be borne out by the results. And Midall said that in their situation, it wasn't really a kind of gerrymandering given the skills that they had on the team. It wasn't really a kind of gerrymandering given the skills that they had on the team. It was just that it was difficult for them to attract pitchers who wanted to get their stock up on a one-year contract.

So they couldn't really recruit people and say, come here and restore your reputation. So it was like a tough sell. You come to the AL East and also the number two hitters park and that wasn't doing them any favors. the number two hitter's park and that that wasn't doing them any favors and then it seemed like the the most bang they could get for their buck or the most impactful move they could make was to change left field and make that an easier sell and he said in late september that the last time he checked it had taken away one more home run from the orioles than their opponents so that it wasn't really a big factor in their success as far as he saw it. But it's interesting because the ball was deader, of course, last year. And so he said that the fence had taken away a handful of more home runs than they had estimated because they didn't really know exactly how the ball would behave, although that might be chance also. So we've seen the ball get deader and fewer home runs hit. And now we've seen the Tigers and the Blue Jays maybe make things home run friendlier in the wake

of that. So I wonder if you were to track fence changes and dimensions changes over time, how closely that would track with how the ball is behaving. Like if the ball is a little deader, oh, we'll move the fences in. If the ball is really lively, well, we wouldn't want to exacerbate that situation by moving the fences in further. So I wonder if it's at all related to that because obviously you can't count on the ball behaving one way or another from season to season anymore

if you ever could. So you wouldn't want to necessarily base a big decision solely on that because it might not stay the same. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. All right. So I'll give you the pass blast. This is episode 1959 and our pass blast comes from 1959 and from Jacob Pomeranke, Sabre's director of editorial content and chair of the Black Sox Scandal Research Committee. He writes, 1959, sign of the times. In the early days of baseball on television, networks experimented with a few different angles to

bring the action to viewers at home. Most broadcasts place cameras high above home plate, usually from the press box or grandstand roof. For the first All-Star game in 1959 at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh, NBC debuted a new camera angle from the centerfield bleachers looking in toward home plate. Instantly, there was an uproar and a call to ban this new camera angle on TV. Jim Schlemmer of the Akron Beacon Journal explains why in this column on July 19, 1959. Quote, Commissioner Ford Frick has spiked the safest and easiest sign-stealing gimmick of modern times by outlawing further use of the 80-inch telephoto lens in televising baseball games. From its position in the centerfield bleachers, it gave televiewers a better close-up

of the catcher's signs than most pitchers get from 60 feet. It was used last week by NBC in covering the All-Star Game and enabled Mel Allen to set a new record for boresome broadcasting by continually reading the signs from his monitor, announcing the pitches in advance, and regaling his listeners with vocal applause for himself for his astuteness. The lens was used last Sunday, too, from the Bleachers in Fenway Park while the Red Sox beat the Yankees for the fourth time in as many days. What better way to break up the Yankees than through closed circuit television in parks where the Yankees play with receiving sets installed in the home dugouts? And Jacob concludes, good thing no one could ever imagine that scenario.

The 1959 season included a few other science-dealing controversies. You may recall Al Worthington, who was interviewed on episode 1505 of Effectively Wild, confronting his Giants manager Bill Rigney about San Francisco's spy in the bleachers in September. But the TV networks quickly won their fight with the commissioner about the cameras. By the 1960 World Series, NBC's cameras were back in center field in Pittsburgh, providing a close-up view of Bill Mazeroski's dramatic home run in Game 7, and no one ever accused him of stealing signs on that one. So, yeah, you can imagine why there was a bit of concern, a little bit of an uproar when that was initially televised, right? You might have imagined some rampant sign-stealing schemes and things like that have happened at times. So they weren't completely off base, but from a spectator perspective, it really is a lot better,

I think, to get the view from center field looking into home plate than from the press box or the grandstand roof. I mean, it's nice to get a perspective on the whole field at times, but nothing really makes you feel involved in the game like that centerfield view, I would say. Yeah, I think that that's right. All right. Well, 1959, that's when the centerfield camera debuted on baseball broadcasts. That is also when Jaime Harain debuted on Dodgers broadcasts.

I hadn't even considered that until now. That's a good transition, Ben. Yeah, thank you. Really good. It all works. We totally planned that. This is a thematic episode because of that anniversary. Not exactly, but it all works out.

So in just a moment, we will be back with Sam Blum and Fabio Nardia of The Athletic and Pedro Mora of Fox Sports to talk about the Angels and the Dodgers and Jaime Herrin and how those two teams have handled their Spanish language broadcasts or neglected them, as the case may be. And just so you know, this interview was recorded before the news that Angels owner Artie Moreno has done an about-face and decided not to sell the team for now. Everything we said still applies, but when we talk about what the Angels could do differently in a post-Moreno world, just know that the post-Mareno world for the Angels

might be a little longer coming than we thought, which is probably not the best news for Angels fans, but I'll have more on that in the outro, so stay tuned. De las alegres familias De esa gente que yo quise Por las tardes se sentaban Afuera a tomar el fresco Yo pasaba y saludaba Y aparece que hoy huele Yo pasaba y saludaba

Y aparece que hoy vuelve La pelota se va, se va, se va Y despídala con un beso Listo Julio, lanzamiento Cantado el tercer strike Y los Dayes son finalmente Después de 32 años Los amos absolutos del béisbol de grandes ligas Mike! And the Dodgers are finally, after 32 years, the absolute masters of baseball in the great leagues. Here in Los Angeles, the trophy of the commissioner, decreeing.

All right, we are back and we are joined by a whole Southern California crew now, some of whom have joined us before, some of whom are joining us for the first time. So I will introduce them one by one in no preferential order, just however the mood strikes me here. First, we have Fabian Ardaya, who covers the Dodgers for The Athletic and formerly covered the Angels for The Athletic and also just got engaged. So welcome, Fabian, and congratulations. Hello. Thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. I think all three of us have or currently do work for The Athletic, too, which works out really great.

We are also joined by Sam Blum, who is a colleague of Fabian's at The Athletic, and he currently covers The Angels. Hello, Sam. Hello, and I'll echo the congratulations to Fabian. Yeah, and Pedro Moura is here, too. Pedro is the author of How to Beatian. Yeah. And Pedro Mora is here too. Pedro is the author of How to Beat a Broken Game. He has covered both the Angels and the Dodgers. And he is also a writer for Fox Sports.

Hello, Pedro. Hi, Ben. Hi, Meg. Hi, Sam. Hi, Fabian. And congrats to Fabian. That's wonderful news. Should we just do a pod on the engagement?

Yeah. It's actually just to say congrats and take us through it. We want the play-by-play piece. How did it happen? When did you pop the question? Tell us all about it. It looks like it was a beach of some sort, perhaps. It was.

It also has been raining in California for seemingly a month straight. And the only day all week where it didn't rain was that day. So thankfully, it worked out. Our photographer didn't know he was going to be open for sure't rain was that day. So thankfully it worked out. Our photographer didn't know he was going to be open for sure that day until that morning he was about to book a flight to Arizona. So stressful down to the end, but luckily it worked out. Oh, excellent. I'm glad the stars and the weather aligned for you. That is wonderful. So we will pivot now to talking about the angels. Maybe we'll return to Fabian's engagement and wedding planning at some point in the

segment. But Sam, I guess we can start with you because you just wrote a reported piece on this that will inform our conversation today. This just came out last week. Headline, Angel Spanish Language Broadcast at a Crossroads as Announcers Decry Treatment. So you wrote about Jose Tolentino, who has been the Angels Spanish language broadcast voice for decades now, but has not been treated particularly well. And we can maybe use his story as a springboard to talk about the differences and

how these two teams serve or underserve their Spanish language audiences. But tell us a little bit about Jose's story and how you came to tell it. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I just always kind of had noticed that the Angels didn't really, I mean, I started covering the team in the middle of 2021 and noticed that they didn't really have any sort of Spanish language broadcast that I could at least perceive, which is interesting because they actually do have a Spanish language broadcast, but they were kicked out of the booth. I think it was before the 2013 season. They kind of had a lack of space, or at least that was the reason for it. I think they could have made space, certainly. But Jose's story, I mean, he first started with the team in 1998. That was when Disney owned the team, and he was treated, I think, like a full-time employee, really. I mean, he said he made $80,000 a year and had full benefits. And I think over the years,

as maybe some of the relationships the Angels had with various radio stations and rights holders shifted, his role shifted to more of a freelance role where he wasn't necessarily paid by the team. His role shifted to more of a freelance role where, you know, he wasn't necessarily paid by the team. And basically his the Angels started caring a little bit less about the broadcast and then eventually a lot less about it to the point where he wasn't even calling games the last couple of years. And, you know, when he did, it was it was out of his laundry room in his home in Mission Viejo. So it's yeah, it just it's it's kind of ugly. Mission Viejo. So it's, yeah, it just, it's, it's kind of ugly. And the way I came about it, just kind of noticed it and reached out to a couple of people who I thought might have more information and just kind of led me down that path. And he was really excited when I reached out to him because he's been kind of desperate for something, you know, anything to shift this.

And I think he's hopeful that, you know, that, that story and that his story being out there can, can not only help him, but also really, I think that there's a lot, there's no reason all 30 teams shouldn't call 162 games in Spanish, at least in my opinion. There's not a humongous resource, you know, tons of Spanish speaking baseball fans. So, yeah, I mean, it's just disappointing, obviously. And the Angels, there's a reason why they lose every year. And it's because they kind of cheap out on things that might not seem extremely important to them, but I think are very important to a lot of people. And this is just one example of it. I think one of the things I was struck by in reading your story was the seeming remove that the Angels have from the

broadcast of their own team. And I'm curious just how much their situation with on the radio side parallels other teams or diverges from them, not only on the Spanish language speaking side, but just in terms of their broadcast in general, because if I, it seems strange when teams are so focused on image and they want to have input into all of the aspects of the game day experience that there would be, you know, a disconnect between what the team that there would be sort of a gap that they'd be willing to allow between themselves and their broadcast partners. Yeah, I mean, and it's it's not the way it is for their television, their English, you know, broadcast. I mean, it's pretty much the idea is the setup, at least in theory is the same, right? I mean, you know, ballet sports isn't the Angels, they're separate entities, but

you know, they're, they're partners and they work directly with ballet sports to determine things like, you know, I'm sure salary, working conditions, you know, who's even calling the games, things like that. And, and you're right that at least that, that, that was their kind of explanation. Well, this is on KWKW. This isn't really on us, but that's not necessarily the case. I mean, the Angels can control a lot of these things. And I think if you look at like, you know, I know we're going to talk a lot about the Dodgers and what Jaime Jorin has meant to, you know, that fan base in that community and the way the Dodgers kind of produce their own broadcast in that sense. And, you know, they obviously treated him like he was the legend that he is and that he was in the booth for 64 years. And I think that the Dodgers

aren't the only team that do it well. I mean, there are, I think a lot of the, the bigger market teams, especially teams that play in, you know, heavily Spanish speaking markets like the New York teams and, you know, the Padres, the Diamondbacks, uh, the Marlins, the Rays, you know, um, and I think a good number of other teams at least have all their home games. So it's, it's, there's no reason why they couldn't do this better. And there's no reason why they shouldn't be directly involved in producing it and determining the working conditions. And I think that they are. I just think that they don't really care that much. So it doesn't really matter for them how poor or how good it is. how poor, how good it is. Yes.

You talked to the general manager of KWKW, Jim Kalmanson, who I think is the son of the founder of the station, right? We've talked a lot about sons of prominent people and the quotes that they've given lately, but some of the ones, yeah, what he told you, talking about when these decisions were made about moving Tolentino to kind to a part-time basis, et cetera. I have no idea of when that decision was made or why. I might have made the decision. I'm not even kidding you. But honestly, I have zero recollection. That's great. That inspires a lot of confidence. It makes me think they're really taking these broadcasts seriously. Sometimes you're in an interview and somebody's just saying things. You're like, just keep going,

man. Why don't you just keep going? This is gold. Every word you're saying is gold. I mean, to some extent, you sometimes worry in stories like this that people won't be honest with you. And first off, everyone was, I believe. And he was too. I mean, it just shows they don't care. I mean, that's what it comes down to. They don't care. And so I think I appreciate, if anything, that, yeah, he was ridiculous, but he was also honest. And that's the point of putting those quotes in there, right? It's not to make him look bad. It's to just show they don't care. The angels do not care. I mean, that's what it comes down to. They can tell you that they care, but the result is they don't care.

Yeah. Well, he made himself look bad. You just quoted him. But just to hand this over to either They can tell you that they care, but the result is they don't care. Dodgers and to a whole fan base in that area or even nationwide, because we've been wanting just to talk about him and his legacy for a while now. And you could do a whole podcast about that. So just for people who aren't that familiar with his work, could one of you or both of you, having covered the Dodgers now, give us some of just of the magnitude of what he has accomplished and what he means to to fans and you know what it will mean to not have him behind the mic in 2023 for the first time since 1958 i guess yeah i think the biggest way you can put it is that the biggest compliment you have hyman harine is just the level of respect that the guy who shared a booth with sort of had for him and Vin Scully.

I think they sort of looked at each other as peers. And I think Jaime sort of talked about how Vin was one of the first people to sort of view him as a peer as opposed to being an outsider calling a game. Jaime Herring obviously didn't grow up in a baseball speaking country. He didn't really know baseball that well until he came to the United States and started calling Dodger games. But he became that level of establishment to a lot of fans sort of like Vin Scully did and a lot of connections to a lot of important Dodger stories like obviously Fernando Valenzuela became an interpreter for him in addition to his duties and so look at it now I mean just to tie it back to the Angels but he is the reason why someone like Jose Mota, who did a lot of Angels games for two decades

before going back to the Dodgers last year, he's the reason why he's into broadcasting because his father, Manny Mota, played for the Dodgers, so they would have Jose sit in the booth with Jaime. And I think that's all you need to know is just the generations of Spanish-speaking broadcasters who sort of look at Jaime sort of the same way a lot of English-speaking broadcasters look at Vin Scully. Yeah, it's worth noting, too, that, you know, the Los Angeles metropolitan area has essentially equal parts Spanish speakers as English speakers.

And so there's a lot of people who, you know, were introduced to baseball through him. through him. And I think from my perspective as a journalist, I think Dylan Hernandez put it best last year in the LA Times that Jaime's dignity and professionalism in the press box helped open doors for Latinos who followed him in LA and across Major League Baseball. And he joined the industry in the 1950s. And so for more than a half century, he's helped open the doors for people who ordinarily would have had a harder time without him finding their way in the business. Yeah, he lasted so long that his son retired before he did. His son, Jorge, who was in the booth with him for a while, he actually stopped broadcasting a year or two before his dad did.

And I mean, he was doing it for, what, 64 years. Scully was 67, right? So he started a little later, finished a little later, but had almost as long a run. And the continuity is incredible to have both of those guys overlapping for most of their careers. Basically no comps outside the organization, but both of them just working side by side, essentially. It's amazing. And like Scully, he was a national figure in that he would call other events. You know, he called the Olympics.

He called a lot of boxing. He called all-star games and World Series, etc. So he wasn't purely just a local Los Angeles Dodgers broadcaster. He covered big news, etc. too. So a lot of people would know him who weren't necessarily Dodgers fans even. So a lot of people would know him who weren't necessarily Dodgers fans even. I don't know how much any of you had the opportunity to listen to his broadcast, you know, kind the sense that people know Vince Scoglio, he's very lyrical and he has all these anecdotes and outlier in recent years. So is there sort of a perception of what kind of broadcaster Harim was or what his strengths were as a broadcaster? I think just the biggest thing of having a Spanish broadcaster in general is something that he sort of showed is the ability to have connections and relationships with these

guys, especially a lot of players, sort of like a Fernando Valenzuela early on and have that voice for him. I think it was the biggest thing that sort of put Jarin on the map for fans to really grow and appreciate him. I know he'd been on the mic for decades at that point, but that's sort of when it grew into legend, just being able to tell the story especially as the game became more and more Hispanic you sort of saw the the rosters change a little bit he

became was able to sort of relate those stories I think that's sort of the part of his style that they sort of embraced and of course the Dodgers especially this last year they sort of a lot of tributes to some of the things he usually call. He would mix in some of his calls into their highlight videos. His catchphrase, the speed of the day, speed of the day, which is a kissy goodbye after every home run. So they would try to make sure that even if you weren't someone who regularly listened to his calls and you could still you understood what he sounded like on the mic and what that meant. Yeah. In, you know, I'm not a fluent Spanish speaker, but in talking to Jaime, which, and he's,

he's a beautiful dignified English speaker too. And he, I think my, my strong suspicion is that that is what comes through. He is a, he's a very stylish dresser. I think probably fans do know this. One of, one of the most in the business. And he brings that dignified energy to everything he does in the press blocks, hours before games, greeting people. And I imagine on the broadcast as well. And from the glimpses I have caught, I think that's a big portion of it.

I'm curious, as we contrast the experience of Dodgers broadcasters and Dodgers fans with those of the Angels, like I just, you know, there's the piece of this that we hope will be front and center in these decisions, which is to, you know, see your fan base for what it is, make sure that all of your fans are being spoken to quite literally within their experience of the game, having opportunity open for all of the fans are being spoken to quite literally within their experience of the game, having opportunity open for all of the different kinds of people who both enjoy and play baseball. Those unfortunately don't often drive decisions for teams. And it seems like even if we set that aside, there is such an obvious business case for properly assessing, you know, the demographics of your fan base and making sure that

your fans and your potential fans are spoken to in, you know, a language that they understand in a way that they can correctly perceive to be dignified. So I, I wonder, do we attribute this, you know, Sam said that they just don't care. Do we attribute the Angels sort of recent turns in this regard as just incompetence on their part? Is there any difference in the business case to be made between these two teams? Or is this maybe part of a broader pattern that we have seen in terms of the way that the Angels treat their staff just across the board? Because it just seems like you're in Southern California, like you should have a Spanish language broadcast. That seems obvious because there are,

as you guys have noted, a ton of Spanish speakers there. So what do we really, is there anything other than just cheapness or indifference that we can attribute this to? They've already kind of shown that they can do this with NHK broadcasting games in Japanese for them. I think they've shown the infrastructure is there to add uh it's just a matter of keeping that infrastructure and energy for probably a larger percentage of your more immediate fan base obviously there's a global fan base that wants to watch and follow shohei otani there's a huge japanese american population in california as well but you sort of mentioned the demographics show

there's a large portion of their fan base that should be able to listen to these games and their language. And it's also very important, and Fabian made this point earlier, it's not just the fans. I mean, the players too can be engaged when there is a Spanish media presence to some extent.

And there is still. But I mean, one thing in talking with Jose Mota for this story was, you know, he told me how often he would interview players and engage with players and have relationships with players that I think that, you know, as someone, I don't speak Spanish and I don't think many people on the, and that's, there's probably, you know, there probably should be more of that, to be honest with you. But, you know, on our end, but at the end of the day,

that's still an outlet for them to be able to, you know, there probably should be more of that, to be honest with you, but, you know, on our end. But at the end of the day, it's that's still an outlet for them to be able to, you know, have have their story told, have their stories told in different formats. And so that it's disappointing when they can't have that necessarily, you know, and have that connection with media that we might have with, you know, English speaking players. So that's important, too. But, you know, as it relates to business decisions, you know, you could argue the case, maybe that they tried putting it on the air and the ratings weren't great. But one thing that in speaking with Jaime for this story was, you know, he brought up when, when he had a conversation with Artie Moreno, the Angels owner back in, I think, 2010, and already asked him how he was so successful with that. He said, you have to invest in it and you have to produce it yourself. And I think that it's more about cultivating an audience than it is about just putting it on the air and seeing ratings maybe not be super great or whatever it might be. I mean, neither the Angels nor KWKW would provide that information to me.

But I do think that it goes beyond a business decision to some extent. Like you need to be able to try and connect. Whether or not you're getting to everybody, you can build it over time and maybe you'll start to see an increase in the number of people listening to the broadcast and maybe showing up to games. And it takes time, I think. And even if it doesn't work ever, I still think it's worth it, just so there's the option, just so people can listen to it if they want to. It's just whether or not you're making money on it, there's some things that I think are just more important to invest in. And this is one of them.

Yeah. And if it is, as you say, Sam, let's treat it as a business decision. If so, I think you could argue it's a short-sighted one, right? And this takes me back to 2015 when I covered the Angels and their vice president of marketing and ticket sales, Robert Alvarado, told me that the team's strategy was not to sell tickets to fans who had less money than higher income fans. He said, quote, we may not be reaching as many of the people on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder, but those people, they may enjoy the game, but they pay less and we're not

seeing the conversions on the per capita. In doing so, the ticket price that we're offering those people, it's not like I can segregate them because I'm offering it up to the public and I'm basically downselling everybody else in order to accommodate them. If I can add to that, according to the Los Angeles County Economic Development Corporation, Latinos in Los Angeles make significantly less on average than everyone else in Los Angeles when taken as a whole. And so you wonder if the Angels are deciding not to serve a percentage of their fan base that they think may not invest in the team at the same level as English speakers. And if so, that's an unfortunate decision, but they have a track record of doing so. And that's some of what I see when I look at this. Yeah, I was going to ask whether you think any part of this is just sort of

ceding that audience to the Dodgers because the Dodgers do have such an imprint in that community. I mean, on the one hand, of course, there's the ugly legacy on the Dodgers part of displacing people from Chavez Ravine to build Dodger Stadium, and the last people were being forcibly relocated right around the time that Jaime Jarin first started calling Dodgers games. I mean, those things were happening in the late 50s. On the other hand, then you have decades of Jarin calling games, and you have, of course, Fernando Mania and Fernando Valenzenzuela which just created a whole generation of dodgers fans so is the thought maybe that well they're just so cemented there

that we can't even compete it's like that's that's kind of dodgers territory and uh we won't be able to make inroads there we haven't been able to make inroads there. We haven't been able to make inroads there. Or is it kind of a chicken and the egg sort of thing? Because if you just say, well, we'll just give the Dodgers those fans, then of course you're not making any efforts to cater to them or reach out to them. So why would they support you? My counterpoint would be they call themselves the Los Angeles Angels, which has always been a business grift, in my opinion. I mean, I don't really know why it's they're not in Los Angeles. And the fans that are in Los Angeles are Dodgers fans. I mean, I'm sure there are Angels fans in LA, but it's not,

you know, that's not where they are. They're located. So, you know, if they want to be Los Angeles, Los Angeles team, which, you know, as Pedro noted, is about 5050 split in terms of Spanish speakers and English speakers, and I'm sure there was overlap there, obviously, but this is how you do it. I mean, you can't just be kicking your broadcaster out of the booth to go work from home and call 20 games a year or whatever it might be. It's just, it's just an insult. I mean, at some point, which is what, you know, Jaime said. So I really wish the Angels had commented for the story. You know, I really wish they would have given their perspective, gave them a lot of time to do that, presented a lot of questions, and they just didn't.

So I wish I could tell you what was in their heads, but, you know, they wouldn't do it. How much of this do you think we can attribute to the perspective of ownership, which I ask solely because, you know, if you're looking ahead to the next couple decades of Angels baseball, you know, there's going to be different leadership at the top soon, and I wonder if there's any optimism that can be offered to Spanish-speaking fans of the Angels

that this could end up being a priority of a new ownership group, or do you think that the bridge has just been burned to the point that it's irreparable? I definitely think that a new ownership could come in and do something different. I mean, I think there's going to be a lot of things that are changed with how the angels are run under new ownership. I mean, there's a lot, and this is like I've told, like I said at the start, I mean, this is a microcosm. I think of just a larger pattern of how the angels operate. You know, they spend a lot on things that are front facing and are important in certain areas,

but then you really, you kind of, you peel back the layers. And I think you find that this is an organization that will cut back in certain ways. I mean, I've written about other things like the way they treated their minor leaguers, especially up until the end of last year was pretty bad. So I think new ownership will change a lot. And hopefully this is one thing that they do change. Yeah, just to echo Sam's point,

I think you sort of start to see a pattern just with how ownership approaches a lot of different things in that organization. And I think it's not necessarily they don't really care about Spanish speakers because they don't want to care about Spanish speakers. But they look at things that are going to make them money, the things that they're in the headlines, splashy things, the hiring and signings of big names, like that's what they have traditionally valued and cared about and allowed other things on the periphery to sort of slip and fall. So I think that's sort of what a lot of Angels fans I think have also noticed is just sort of, it's just how this ownership group has functioned. And I think with a new

ownership group, I think there's, I would imagine there's at least a little bit of optimism in place, even though you would think Artie Moreno being the first Mexican-American owner of his franchise in North America would have had more investment in the Spanish-speaking broadcast. But it's clear where his priorities have always been. Yeah, I was going to ask about that because when Artie Moreno took over the team he was handing out giant sombreros with the team's A on it, right? And he was

wearing one himself at his first press conference. I mean, sort of a publicity stunt, but he seemed to be sending a signal, right? That part of his heritage might make him more cognizant of some of these things or might make him want to cultivate fans among people who hadn't historically been Angels fans.

And that hasn't happened. So it's tough to say whether this is sort of a special failure or whether it's just another example of the Angels just cheaping out on something. Because, I mean, they did that to some extent even with their English language broadcast, right? They didn't have people traveling post-pandemic after most other teams had returned to doing that, right? They still had people calling things remotely and having delayed calls on things, right? And that became, you know, people were mocking that. So it's not as if they've

exactly lavished resources on every other aspect of the organization either. Yeah. I would say you don't have to be Latino though, to understand that Latinos can make you money. And I think that anyone who has $3 billion is probably going to understand they hear they, that group does not want to give up um three uh you know some percentage of what what that you know what 45 percent of people across this metropolitan area can earn i mean this is by far the most spanish-speaking major metropolitan area in southern california or in america excuse me southern california is and so the idea that you know when you really look at it from afar the idea of what the angels have done over the last 15 years with their

disinvestment in that in that percentage of fan, it just doesn't stand to reason. And I think, as Sam said, very much your expectation should be the new ownership will change this. Yes. How much do you think just, I mean, one player, one sort of franchise player, I mean, Fernando, right? Just Fernando being a Dodger and not being an Angel or anything else. How much does that just kind of create a generational bond where people grew up watching him, rooting for him, their parents did, and then you have Harim too, who much like Scully linked together generations of English-speaking Dodgers fans. Harim does the same for Spanish-speaking ones. So is that just kind of

like this unicorn Fernando comes along or obviously like the Dodgers deserve credit for having Fernando in the first place. But I wonder just, you know, have the angels not had the right guy? Have they not made the effort to have the right guy who could generate that type of loyalty? Like, you know, we're talking decades ago. I mean, going back 40 years to Fernando Mania, but I assume that is still sort of paying dividends decades down the line. I think it's probably both. I mean, obviously, like, you know, Fabian mentioned earlier, you have someone like Shohei

Otani, who's probably, I mean, I would, if I had to imagine the nation of Japan, probably a lot of Angels fans there, at least up until, you know, up until he's no longer on the team, you know, we'll see what happens, obviously, this this year with ownership changes. But I also think, you know, the Angels have plenty of really incredible Spanish speaking players that have, you know, from a lot of different countries that have had incredible accomplishments with the Angels. I mean, you know, Frankie Rodriguez sent the set the single season saves record, Bartolo Colon won a Cy Young with the Angels. He had two of the three Molina brothers win a World Series. Obviously, they had Albert Pujols on the roster for a decade. So there have been a lot of really great Spanish-speaking players.

I agree that, yeah, you have Fernando Mania. That probably pays a lot of dividends, probably helped them and probably established something with that fan base for a long time. But at the same time, I still don't think that's a great excuse for why the Angels maybe haven't engaged that audience as much as they really could or should. I know that this is perhaps a strange question to ask after an offseason where the Dodgers haven't really done much to reinforce their big league roster, primarily for monetary reasons. But I'm curious, even stepping away from the broadcast side of things, when we think about the parallels that this has to other parts of the Angels organization and how we can contrast them

with the Dodgers, like the extent to which this sort of cheapness ends up being a real competitive disadvantage for the Angels. Because it doesn't seem like, you know, the Dodgers, and I know that they spend so much compared to a lot of other teams. So in some ways this might be unfair, but like compared to the Dodgers, they're not worrying about, you know, the inflation adjusted $80,000 a year salary of a broadcaster. It's just such, you know, a small amount compared to the rest of their operating budget. So Sam, in your sense of covering the team, how aware are Angels employees of these kinds of small, at the fringes, cheap, but impactful decisions? And what does that do

for morale for these guys? I just think when you spend a little less everywhere you possibly can, it just hurts in a lot of ways. Like if you don't, the Ganges haven't really developed many players through the minor league system. And I don't think that's an accident, right? If you're not investing in your players and if you're not investing in your player development staff, then you're not going to develop major league players. And if you don't develop major league players, then what you're not going to have a good team. And the only way you can have a good team is if you spend in free agency. And if you don't spend, you know, over the luxury tax and free agency, then you're probably not also, I mean, that's just, that's just kind of where they are, right? They don't spend enough

and then they don't develop enough. And they're kind of just below what needs to be done in both areas. And that's why they're not good. I mean, it's just, it's, you can spend over a hundred million dollars on Rendon and Trout and Otani in one season or Upton or Pujols or whatever. But then it's, if you don't have the roster around it, and we saw that last season, I mean, they had a pretty good team for about six weeks and then they had an injury or two. And there was just nothing they could do to replace it because they just, they're, they're, they're, they're heavy. They're a top heavy organization and it's shown in a lot of ways, I think. And yeah, I mean, in terms of morale, it's, you know, I think it's tough. There are a lot of really great people that work for the Angels.

And I think almost everybody is. But, you know, when you work for people that aren't going to invest in you or in the organization as much as maybe they could, then that's, you know, it's just tough. It's tough, you know? Yeah. Sam, you alluded to it, but what, what did Harim tell you when you spoke to him for the story about how the angels have handled this? And that's one other thing I think is, I know you obviously wanted to probably talk a lot about him and his legacy and what he's done. And I think this is a big part of it from my perspective is he's, he's not only great for Dodgers and their fans, but he's someone I think that people that do this job can really rally around, you know, he's a legend, not just for, for fans, but for, for other people in this industry. And I think for him to speak out and say what he did, you know,

he has their back. That's how I look at it. Um, and that's a huge part of your legacy. If, if you are willing to have the backs of your coworkers and your colleagues and the people that you respect and you work with. And I think if you recognize that you did a great job, but you're also fortunate in a lot of ways and you want to pay it forward, that's a huge part of legacy. For those of you who've covered the Dodgers, what does the English-speaking Dodgers fan base think about Harin just in general, you know, in broad strokes? Because I would imagine that many of them maybe have not actually heard Harin's broadcast or at least weren't able to understand it if they did. And yet, you know, he's been there. He's been such a staple for many fans' entire lives. And beyond that,

I imagine the same would be true just for for solely spanish speakers who you know just were aware of the significance of finn scully but maybe never really listened to finn just listened to hymie instead so are people who you know maybe not spanish speakers but have been rooting for the dodgers for a long time do they appreciate his significance to the franchise and and a large segment of the fan base I would say so at least in the aspect of like if they understand Fernando mania I mean if they've seen Fernando speak they've seen Jaime Herrin speak because there's for most of his career not all of his career he Jaime Herrin was essentially Fernando's interpreter

in addition to being a broadcaster. So they've all seen him. They've all heard him. And I think the big thing that I think I want to give credit to the Dodgers this past season, with it being Green's last season, is they did a really good job of making sure that he was sort of – his story was told. And it wasn't just, oh, we're going to honor this guy. It's also bringing in people who could speak to what he was able to bring,

who could speak to what he was able to do. And there were multiple on-field ceremonies over the course of the season, just to sort of educate those fans that really didn't understand that his impact is, especially for the Spanish-speaking fan, is basically what Vince Scully did for the English-speaking fan in Los Angeles. I don't think you necessarily need to tell a Dodger fan just how much Vince Scully sort of meant to them.

Yeah, and to put his longevity into perspective in a different way, you mentioned, Sim, that Tolentino started calling Angels games in 1998. That was the year that Jaime Jorin won the Ford C. Frick Award, the Hall of Fame Award for broadcaster. So Tolentino has had a long career in his own right. And Jarin was a Hall of Famer at the time Tolentino was starting and has been going ever since until now. So again, just another way to present an incredibly long tenure.

So I guess finally then, let's say the new ownership group comes in. Artie Moreno sells. Someone else takes over the team sometimes. I guess the obvious prescription is have a full-time Spanish language broadcaster and have them be a full-time employee and have the games easily accessible. And so people know where to find them and that they're always there is there anything else that you would all recommend that the angels do to try to make up for years of underserving this audience or tactics that that they could adopt from the dodgers that have worked really well for the dodgers all this time so that they could kind of

you know get some sliver of that market for themselves that if we want to put it in those terms, kind of a competitive advantage that the Dodgers have in this market because they have not ignored this huge portion of the fan base. So what should the angels do when, when they turn the page? I mean, it's, it's that, I mean, yeah, that's a big part of it. And I also think, you know, you have to engage the community. I mean, you know, one thing Jose actually told me, and this wasn't in the story necessarily, but, you know, when he first started out, he wasn't just calling games, but he was, you know, at team functions and, you know, he was at charity events and things like that. And I think that's a big part of it too. I mean, it's, you know, if you're a team employee, you have to leverage that and, you know, try and engage people where they are as much as possible. And it's not just calling a game. It's, you know, you know, really maybe have heritage nights, you do things you were right now the Dodgers have their Los Dodgers uniforms. I mean, the Angels could do stuff like that. It's just small, right? But it does, I think it does

have an impact if they feel like they're, if people feel like they're being seen, and they're being heard, and they're being cared about. And, you know, it's, it's like the same thing. I mean, I was to cover the Rangers and they didn't have a pride night and I wrote about that and, you know, it was, it's the same thing. I mean, you have to show people you care if you want to keep that fan base. And I think that it's not just the broadcast, but it's the broadcast and then what kind of comes with it. It just, if you show you care and in as many ways as possible, I think you'll, you'll, you'll see people start to come along. I mean, I've seen, I've heard from enough readers at this point, uh, from the, since that story that they're disappointed in that they, that, you know,

that they're, it's, it's tough to be, you know, Hispanic and to be a fan right now. So I think that if you, you show that you care, I mean, that's what brings people in. It's not, it's not rocket science, I think. Yeah. To add to that, I would say that, you know, if you look at the Dodgers roster in recent seasons since Yasiel Puig left, they really have not featured many Latinos at all. It's been an overwhelmingly white roster and an overwhelmingly American-born roster. They haven't had a Spanish-speaking everyday position player since Puig and Grandal left. But, you know, they've, they've found ways to market to their fan base anyway. Alex Verdugo,

who is of Mexican descent, but did not speak Spanish, used to walk up to a very famous Mexican song. And, and, and he loved and played up the connection to the Spanish speaking fan base that resulted as a, when he, when he came up to that song. And I think that, you I think there are many ways. You don't even have to have... I don't think the Angels' shortage of current Spanish-speaking stars

or anything like that has anything really to do with it. It's about, as you were saying, it's about targeting and not necessarily playing up what you have, but just making sure that people know that you are wanted. And I think that could start immediately. There's nothing else that needs to happen until that begins. Yeah, I mean, the Dodgers, just to mention some of the heritage nights that Sam mentioned,

they do Korean Heritage Night, Japanese Heritage Night. All the different communities are pretty prevalent in the Los Angeles area. And then every Tuesday, it's taco Tuesday at the ballpark, which they had like a live mariachi band. And like, it's, it's like small stuff like that, that probably on the whole of their season doesn't really impact too much of

their books, but it's like specific things that access different communities that keep people engaged. And that's the biggest thing. Like obviously having a Latin based roster helps And that's the biggest thing. Like, obviously, having a Latin based roster helps having someone for the Dodgers. Now, I know, position player side is, as Pedro mentioned, very American board, but that having Julio Rios, as someone who connects to the Latin community helps like that stuff helps, but I think ultimately comes down to just making sure that they're engaged and showing that you're willing to try different things to keep people engaged.

All right. Last thing. I wasn't going to go here, but Sam, you whetted my appetite for this. And we're talking to a bunch of people who have covered or do cover the Angels and the Dodgers. angels and the dodgers so i must ask what are the odds that any of you will be covering shohei otani on a day-to-day basis in in 2024 there's a good chance i think somebody will then i kind of admire your restraint with otani honestly i know i held out until the very end here i think there's a good chance some of us are coming there are one or i don't know i mean i you know it's all dependent on that on that new owner i i kind of my my feeling has always been i think that otani will be with the

angels dodgers or mets i think he likes the west coast and if he wants to leave the dodgers make a lot of sense and i think if he wants to maybe if the mets since they seem to be willing to spend whatever it takes maybe they would be willing to get someone like him but you know if the new owner comes in and they have a lot of money and they show how important this is to keep him and the team is successful this year, which a humongous if at this point, since I don't think they've earned the benefit of the doubt

of expecting a winning season after eight losing seasons. But that, I think, would be the formula. A lot of money from a new owner and a winning season in 2023. If that happens, I think there's a shot. But outside of that, the way he's talked about the Angels, it's very tepid. I think he likes the team. I think he likes the fans. But I also think that he wants to win and somebody's going to pay him a lot of money to do so, whether that's the Angels or somewhere else. Speaking of which, Pedro Fabian, do you put any stock in the theory that one reason why the Dodgers have not been so active this winter and have

maybe wanted to reset their CBT penalty, if possible, is that they are preparing to just blow everyone out of the water for Otani next winter, which blowing everyone out of the water for Otani, I can't even conceive of what that would mean from a contract standpoint, given some of the contracts that we've seen this winter. I do think they wanted initially this winter to reset their tax figures just to sort of have a pursuit, be able to clear up that sort of pursuit. But they're over the luxury tax now. The MLB decision on Trevor Bauer basically ruled out those chances

unless they traded off the big league roster, which I don't see them doing. But yeah, I mean, they do have a lot of interest in Shohei Otani. They have for a very, very long time, dating back to high school with Nick Coletti as the GM, and then, of course, when he was a free agent all those years back. It's interesting. It all comes down to what Shohei Otani's motivations are and what he wants. I think I wrote something back when I was still on the Angels beat

just about that pursuit and ultimately what it was that sort of led him to want to choose the Angels. And I think every person I asked sort of said they didn't really know, ultimately. One of the things that was really interesting in reporting that story, though, was it seemed that Billy Epler, who is now the general manager of the Mets but was the general manager of the Angels, he really sold that pitch really well.

It seemed like he connected really well with Shohei Otani. Obviously, things have changed a little bit. And obviously, Otani's seen what an Apple run team looks like, what a Perry Manassian run team looks like. It ultimately comes down to what he's going to value in terms of money, winning, where he lives, sort of how comfortable he feels. But it's going to be really interesting. Yeah, I wouldn't say that I expect the Dodgers offer

to blow any other team out of the water. I'd certainly expect them to be in the mix. I would say that I think it's more likely the Dodgers would get him if something happens, you know, like some sort of injury saps something of his season this year. The Dodgers love, you know, distressed assets, and if, you know, if Otani is forced to miss some sort of injury saps something of his season this year. The Dodgers love distressed assets. And if Otani is forced to miss some portion of the season, I think that's going to hurt other teams' willingness to invest

$500, $600 million into him. And I think that could enable the Dodgers to pop in on a really high dollar short-term deal or something like that. So if I had to pick between the Mets and the Dodgers right now, I'm definitely taking the Mets. But things can change. He has been hurt before. He's doing two things that are difficult to do at a high level. So we'll see what happens throughout the season. Well, I don't want to contemplate anything bad happening to Shohei Otani. So how dare you put that energy up into the universe, Pedro? I love that. Sorry, Ben.

All right. Well, we thank you for coming on today and Sam for your recent reporting on this topic, and you can find Sam and Fabian at The Athletic. You can find Pedro at Fox Sports. You can also find his book, How to Beat a Broken Game,

which is about the Dodgers, and you can find them all on Twitter at their names or at Sam Blum 3 in Sam's case, although Pedro is trying to quit Twitter seemingly pretty successfully. So good for you. Thank you, Ben. And Fabian, congrats again and good luck with the wedding planning. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. All right. So as noted at the end of the intro, not so fast with that post-Moreno future,

the Angels released a statement on Monday afternoon announcing that the Moreno family is ending the exploratory process to sell the team and will continue ownership throughout the 2023 season and beyond. That process had been underway

since last August. Some had said, including Rob Manfred, that they had hoped a deal would be done by opening day. Now back to the drawing board, apparently. Moreno's statement said, During this process, it became clear that we have unfinished business and feel we can make a positive impact on the future of the team and the fan experience. This offseason, we committed to a franchise record player payroll and still want to accomplish our goal of bringing a World Series championship back to our fans.

We are excited about this next chapter of Angels baseball. He talks about meeting with a number of highly qualified individuals and groups who express strong interest in the club. However, he concludes, as discussions advanced and began to crystallize, we realized our hearts remain with the Angels and we are not ready to part ways with the fans, players, and our employees. So the 87-year-old Jaime Jorin moving on from the Dodgers, at least in an active broadcasting capacity, but the 76-year-old Artie Moreno not

moving on from the Angels. Rob Manfred said, despite strong buyer interest in the Angels, Artie Moreno's love of the game is most important to him. I am very pleased that the Moreno family has decided to continue owning the team. So I don't know if he had a change of heart or the interest wasn't as strong as he had anticipated or both. Notably, the Nationals, another franchise that was exploring a sale, not being sold now either. In the Nationals' case, there are broadcast rights issues. In the Angels' case, there are stadium issues.

It could be that those contributed to the audibles here. But as our guest Sam Blum wrote at The Athletic, this will not be welcome news to most Angels fans who are ready for new ownership to help end the Angels' MLB-leading eight-year playoff drought. The reclusive Moreno, who hasn't answered questions about the team in three years, has not seen his team win a playoff game since 2009. Moreno has been criticized for not investing in key parts of the organization, such as player development and in bolstering the roster headline by superstar talent. For now, things will remain status quo.

So we have had positive things to say about the Angels' transactions this offseason when it comes to players and the active roster. They certainly could contend for a wild card if things don't go wrong as they usually do. Perennioli failing to make the playoffs despite having both Mike Trout and Shohei Otani perhaps the two best players in baseball is an ignominious feat. Reino has spent at times. He is not one of the most miserly owners, but he has tended to meddle and overrule his baseball people at times. And he has stayed within the competitive balance tax threshold as of late. And as we covered, the organization's issues go beyond the big league roster. We'll see if when he talks about making a positive impact on the fan experience, that could include bolstering the Spanish language offerings. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively

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There are now 15 completed podcasts that you can access as soon as you sign up. You also get access to playoff live streams, discounts on merch and ad-free Fangraphs memberships and other goodies. So check it out, patreon.com slash effectively wild. You can also message us through the Patreon site if you are a supporter. If you are not, you can still contact us via email. Send us your questions, comments, suggestions at podcast at Fangraphs.com. You can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can follow Effectively Wild on Twitter at EWPod. And you can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can follow Effectively Wild on Twitter at EWPod, and you can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash Effectively

Wild. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with another episode a little later this week. Talk to you then. Good night