Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 199: Pitchers Putting on Sunscreen/The Astros and Clubhouse Chemistry

Episode Date: May 9, 2013

Ben and Sam discuss the sunscreen scandal and how much clubhouse chemistry matters to the Astros.

You must promise me that you'll survive, that you won't give up. Good morning and welcome to episode 199 of Effectively Wild, the daily podcast from Baseball Perspectus. I am Ben Lindberg, joined by Sam Miller. Hello, Sam. How are you? Pretty good. How are you? Okay. What do you want to talk about today? Sunscreen. Okay. I almost chose sunscreen, so I'm glad I didn't.

I want to talk about the Astros and Rick Enkele and Clubhouse Chemistry. Okay. I guess since mine is the kind of story of the day, we should start with mine. And then everyone can stop listening. on the ball and uh what he is putting on the ball is a uh it's like a it's a it's a grip aid made of a particular type of sunscreen and rosin which when mixed together with a little bit of moisture turns into basically plaster and uh helps a pitcher grip the ball uh much better and um the interesting thing is not so well i guess it it would be interesting if he had kind of cracked this and Buchholz was the only pitcher who had ever done it. But what's even more interesting is that this is basically just common practice, that everybody does this, or at least loads of pitchers do this all the time.

And it's this kind of legally gray area that has just simply become the norm in baseball. Is that, do you think I'm, am I describing the story accurately? Is that a pretty decent summary? I think so. Yeah. So sunscreen and rosin could be used as foundation for houses, one American league pitcher says, produces a tack, glue-like substance that engineers would be jealous of. And, yeah, he says basically, like, you know, this was all news to us that when somebody accused Buckholtz of cheating, it was a big deal to us. But according to Passon, the umpires did not check. The Blue Jays players said nothing. Buckholtz denied doctoring the ball in any way.

All almost certainly knew the truth bullfrog is as prevalent across baseball as chewing tobacco and sunflower seeds major league baseball can't even can't exactly ban sunscreen and players accept it as part of the game because they don't believe it leads to crazy movement on pitches like spitters of yore so um i guess the question is you and I, as people who aren't on the field, have any role in deciding whether this is cheating? Do we get a say? Or should this be something that players should essentially police on their own? Well, I mean, the rules of baseball have a say, I guess, and the rules of baseball technically would prohibit this, I would think. So,

I don't know. I mean, as long as those rules are on the books, I guess, technically, rules are on the books i guess technically they should be observed or enforced uh i guess if i mean if every player has kind of accepted this or embraced this and come to terms with it and no one no one has has mounted any sort of challenge to it and i mean if if 90% of pitchers are doing this, then you would think that the league must be aware of it and hasn't done anything about it. So I don't know. I mean, you said rules should be enforced, but there are lots of rules that aren't, you know, they aren't really enforced and and baseball is kind of uh figured out a way to to run smoothly uh in a kind of less legalistic atmosphere and and i think in general that's a good thing i mean they they always talk about how you you know you prefer that the referees aren't the ones deciding the games and in the same way you don't really want the league office deciding

the games if if uh if all the players are wow paul goldschmidt is a beast it just so much for the second time uh if all the players are cool with it i mean it's their game is it their game i guess that's the question there are three there are three interests here and one is you and i as fans spectators uh you know commercial uh commercial buyers. One is the league itself, which is the business body that is profiting off it. And without them, this whole thing wouldn't exist. If there was nobody making profit, the whole thing would be pointless. And the third is the players, who are the only people who anybody care about really in the situation and are the talent and are the only ones who are special. And so I guess the question is, whose league is it? Who gets to decide what is

and isn't acceptable? Well, I mean, I guess it maybe depends on the extent to which it changes the game or affects the outcome of the game did that story say anything about when this practice started it was vague it said that it's been going on for years patient zero is not known

years could be three years and years could be thirty I mean my very first thought on this is I wonder if this is why offense is gone. Yeah, well, that's what I was just going to say. I mean, sunscreen and rosin are not new substances. So and, you know, doctoring pitches or pitchers kind of looking for any extra advantage they can find is not a new trend either. So I don't know why this would have just come into vogue now or why it would suddenly have been permitted now and not a decade ago

or two decades ago or three decades ago. But if it has, if the rise in strikeouts and the decline in offense that we've seen over the last few years were tied to the sunscreen-rosin combination, and I mean, that's quite a leap to make that connection probably. then that has all kinds of ramifications and kind of upsets the offense-defense balance and potentially impacts the watchability of the game or the competitiveness of the game. And at that point, you might want to take steps to enforce a rule that is already on the books just to prevent that trend from

continuing further and possibly damaging the game at some point? Yeah, I think that the answer to my question of who owns the game is actually a little complicated. I think there are different parts of the game that are owned by different stakeholders. And the integrity of the game, the idea that we can trust that what we're seeing is real and is sort of fair, roughly fair and legitimate, I think that's owned by us. And that when something ruins our feeling about that, When something ruins our feeling about that, then we essentially have the right to demand that it stop.

And I think that's why, for instance, why steroids is a much bigger deal than other types of cheating and why it's a false equivalency when people say, oh, well, so-and-so threw a spitball. I mean, I feel like the public basically decided that steroids are a bigger deal because they thought that it disrupted the basic integrity of the game. And I think that's legitimate. I think that's fine. When something is destructive to the business of the game or, you know, I don't know, like something like segregation, I think the ownership was right to take that out of the player's hands when the players were threatening to strike over it or players were threatening to walk up the field. I think it was right for the owners to ignore them or at least one team's owner to ignore them because the interests of the game from a business standpoint are their ownership. And then everything else I think is basically the players. So I would give them a large degree of latitude in how they want to basically run the day

to day of their sport. And I've actually always had this kind of theory that it might actually be good if Major League Baseball got out of the PED policing business and left it to the players. Because I have this sort of theory that they would actually police themselves a lot better if it was their responsibility and not the league's. But as long as you make it the league's responsibility, then they have the right to abscond. I don't really know how to … Well, I mean before there was a league PED policy, wasn't that the case? I don't think it was. I think it was still known to be the league's rules.

It was the league's decision of what was legal and what was not legal. I mean, the league would suspend you if you got caught with cocaine, for instance. And it was the, I mean, I think everybody kind of thought of it as it was the league's responsibility to outlaw it or not outlaw it. I might be wrong about this, but I think that's probably true. So you mean if the league just came out and made a statement and said, it's okay with us, it's up to you guys? It's up to you guys, because I don't think the players want it to be allowed.

I think the players, for the most part, would prefer an even playing field where they don't have to engage in this arms race, this sort of dangerous and expensive and uncomfortable arms race. And I don't know. I think that they're more – in a lot of ways, they probably are better able to police themselves. They probably know who's cheating better than drug tests sometimes know who's cheating. So anyway, that's a long and sort of poorly thought out tangent that is only somewhat on topic. But I don't know. I guess in this case, if everybody knew about it, then I would probably be sort of okay with it. I don't get the sense that necessarily everybody did know about it, though.

I think it was probably fairly common knowledge, but I don't think Dirk Harris knew about it, because he seemed to think that something else was going on, something somewhat more sinister. And I also think that it's telling that Buckholtz couldn't admit it and didn't say immediately exactly what he was doing. I mean, it might be that he's just sort of protecting himself legally and innocent people have lawyers too. And so that's, it's not necessarily the case that he's guilty just because he's being legally cautious. But I mean, if, if it's truly a totally common thing that he has no concerns about, he, he wouldn't have to do it so secretly. He wouldn't have to kind of disguise his actions a little bit

and deny it and claim it didn't happen and so on and so forth. So I don't know. It's definitely gray. So if you were the manager of a team, and let's, I don't know, let's say you're the Rays or some low-budget team that is kind of on the bubble of playoff contention and every win could be crucial. And let's say that you know that every pitcher on your team does not do this. And maybe every team has a pitcher who does this.

But let's say that your team does not do this. say that that your team does not do this um would you now that it's kind of known or common knowledge and people will be looking for it probably would you ever kind of challenge would you ever ask an umpire to go out and and check an opposing pitcher you think is doing this knowing that they could be removed from the game and it's not going to hurt your team directly. And maybe that one win that you'll get by getting a sunscreen pitcher out of the game could let you make the playoffs. Oh, gosh. I would do it even if everybody on my team were doing it. I mean, that's just... Well, and then there'd be retaliation, of course.

Well, let them do it. Let them... You know, if they can catch me, if they can catch me cheating, then so be it. But yeah, I mean, I would definitely use this if I could. And I think the more complicated question to me would be if I had a pitcher, if I were a pitching coach and I had a pitcher who wasn't doing this, would I have any qualms about saying, hey, why aren't you using the magic cheat sauce that everybody's doing? I'm not sure whether this is crossed over to a point where club officials can openly suggest it, if it's that open, or if it's still kind of a thing that is done slightly in the shadows, unmentioned and only talked about among players and teammates. I don't know. I guess we'll maybe know more about that when more players are talking about it.

This is a first-day story at the moment. Yeah, I would say that I guess, I mean, Morris and Hayhurst took a lot of heat for bringing this up, and maybe a lot of it was justified kind of the way they went about it or particularly Morris went about it kind of, I don't know, there was a bit of grandstanding, I guess, or it kind of maybe became a distraction for the Blue Jays. And also, I mean, just kind of the claims about the movement on the pitch

being dramatically affected seemed not true, even if Buck Holtz was using this mixture his pitches weren't doing anything crazy as as morris seemed to suggest but but it does kind of uh highlight i think to me the the value of having a former player in a in a broadcast booth or or covering the game because those guys take a lot of heat. And, you know, the sort of sabermetric stance, I guess, generally is that why don't they have more kind of stat guys

in broadcast booths or why don't they have people who care about numbers? And it's just a cliche to get a former player who will say former player things and they all kind of sound the same and that's true a lot of times but also sometimes they pick up on things that you or I wouldn't and this is kind of the value of that, I guess, this was started by a former player who recognized this as something out of the ordinary, which is exactly what you want a former player in the broadcast booth for, I guess, to perceive this thing that would be invisible to most of us.

be invisible to most of us. So that is a word in support of having those guys play a role in covering the game, I guess. Yeah. Okay. The thing I wanted to talk about was Rick Ankele, and I guess we've talked a bit about Rick Ankele, but there was a story in the Houston Chronicle on Wednesday by Brian T. Smith, and it was about the excruciating parting of Rick Ankeel and the Astros, and particularly Carlos Pena. It was filled with these almost maudlin quotes about Anquil's value to the team

as a clubhouse chemistry guy and how traumatic it was for the team and for Peña in particular to be separated from him as he was designated for assignment. And it kind of painted this picture of Pe of Pena and Anquil as, as the only veterans on this very young team and how they, they kind of, uh, they teamed up to try to mentor everyone.

And, and so this was, uh, very jarring. There's a quote from Pena that says it hurt me. It crushed me. And I think it crushed everybody because everybody loved Anquil. He's awesome. Everybody just loved him him and then there's this this text message exchange between penya and

ankyl that it's like it's like the i don't know it's like the rose and jack scene from the end of titanic kind of like i can't even read it in a serious voice. Peñas, he was like, don't worry. Keep on pressing. Help those guys. I'm like, I'm going to miss you. He's like, no, just go. Don't worry about it.

I'll call you. We'll go fishing. But now, go. And then there are quotes from the young guys on the astros uh brendan barnes saying rick took me under his wing and took care of me while he was here we talked baseball we talked life it's tough to see him go i love him like a brother uh and that sort of thing and so i guess it's surprising to me in light of that maybe that that he was designated for assignment so soon given that i mean the the strikeouts were insane and we've talked about the strikeouts um but overall i mean he was he was fairly productive

even while he was striking out in every other at bat because he hit five homers and he had three doubles and he slugged 484 and was basically a league average hitter. Uh, and it was just 65 plate appearances. So, I mean, he was signed in January and, and he, he actually had a great spring training. Uh, so it wasn't like he was striking out every at bat there. He hit 413 or something and slugged 830 um and so he's like and you would think that the astros if any team were going to live with a guy who's who's striking out a lot uh for the value of his his clubhouse presence it would be a team like the astros with just a ton of young guys and no hope of contention. And so it seems sort of strange to me that they would keep him around long enough for him to form these bonds

and become like a teaching figure and someone that all of these young players look up to and then release him after or designated for assignment and probably he will become a free agent after 65 plate appearances in which despite the strikeouts he wasn't actually bad he was pretty much fine for the position he was playing and the power he was hitting with so kind of surprises me and kind of makes me wonder about the value that teams put on clubhouse chemistry. If he was like an 80 chemistry guy who was playing pretty much okay and seemed to be becoming a mentor as they had intended.

And then he was cast loose anyway. And I guess, I mean, and they called up Jimmy Paredes from AAA who was hitting very, very well at AAA. And it seems like he'll probably be kind of a nice player in that he plays just about every position and can hit a little bit, kind of like a super utility guy, but not really, not like a super high ceiling top prospect whom you wouldn't want to be blocked or who wouldn't be able to benefit from a little more time in AAA

given that he's learning all sorts of new positions. So I don't know. It seems kind of strange to me that they would value the clubhouse chemistry enough to sign Ankeel. And then when that worked exactly as as it was intended, seemingly cast him loose anyway. I just first want to note that I was laughing at your reading of those text messages because you have an interesting voice and an interesting style of reading romantic text messages. I'm not laughing at the text messages themselves

which I think are wonderfully sincere. I am laughing at them a little bit. Well, I'm not. I don't have a cold and callous heart like you. But, yeah, I mean, I guess there are a few things that are unknown here. I guess we don't, for instance, know whether removing him actually has any downside. I mean, Carlos Pena is sad, and maybe everybody else will be sad too, but guys are going to come and go, and I think unless players felt like he had been treated unfairly and they had some

bitterness to the organization, it's hard to see some sort of long-term damage coming from it in any particular way. I think that one thing that we underrate, particularly in the minor leagues in player development, is that a lot of clubs, I don't know if this is true for all organizations, but a lot of organizations and in a lot of settings, they really do put a premium on getting players accustomed to winning. It's not just about developing your physical skills and it's not just about getting more mature. They want you to have the mindset of winning. They want you to feel victory and to know how to win and to know how to be in a pennant race even if it's a fake pennant race and to you know

be playing to take the third game of a series against a good team even if you're 29 games out of first place um so there might be some benefit to and sorry and i didn't finish this thought the other thing is that you want to have players feeling like um good play is promoted yes and and bad and bad play is not promoted and you know you yes ankylos ankylos five home runs and so it's i don't know how the i don't know how these guys evaluate each other i don't know how his stat line plays he does have five home runs and so it could be that they go wow geez he's leading the team and you know he's second on the team in home runs and he gets demoted uh you know this random? Or it could be that he struck out 35 times in 62 at-bats, 35 times and he's only walked three times. I would imagine there's something somewhat ugly about watching him hit day in, day out

that maybe you want to send some sort of message. And if he's a mentor, that's probably great in some respects, but you don't necessarily want him giving a lot of batting advice to young players. So all those things are relevant and they're hard to deal with from our perspective. But I guess the one question I would have for you that's a little bigger than this and that is totally speculative, but I just wonder what sort of team is a chemistry guy most valuable on? Is it a team that's going to be in a pennant race in September? Is it a team that has high expectations like the Angels?

I mean, is the Angels the ideal team for a chemistry guy? Because if they start slow, then all the burden of expectations is so heavy on them. Or is it a team like the Astros that's going nowhere and is, and is basically investing entirely in the character of their players and the character development of those players? Or is it a team that is like the Brewers that could really, you could have imagined this year's Brewers team finishing in last place

or challenging for first place? And so maybe the kind of sort of exponential benefits of, of, of, uh, you know, clubhouse chemistry and, uh, and, and happy vibes and, and, and happy players might make a bigger difference. So what, where, where is, if you were, if you were an agent and you were trying to sell a team on your, uh, on your players, wonderful clubhouse chemistry, what team would you target? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I guess you could, you could say that that's a good question i mean i guess you could you could say that if you want to translate clubhouse chemistry into to wins uh then you could treat it like like any other win on the free agent market and say that that a team that is kind

of at the at the like on the verge of a playoff spot and every win could up their playoff odds considerably, then it would be that team as long as the player in question is not hurting your chances statistically. So I mean, in the short term, it would be that team, I guess. But then, I don't know, a team like the Astros, and I don't know how many of the current Astros will be on a good Astros team in a few years from now, but I guess a team like the Astros, or maybe even with more of its top prospects on the roster than the Astros have right now, and a bunch of young guys who are expected to be the core of your contending team, but not to win immediately, I guess you could definitely make the case that it would be that team, just to kind of, because if you can,

I mean, if the influence of that one clubhouse chemistry guy can create more good clubhouse chemistry guys, then in the long term, certainly you would benefit more by exposing your young top prospects to that guy and turning them all into good clubhouse guys, which would then pay off exponentially when you're trying to compete a few years down the road. So I don't know. I could see either case. But certainly you would think that it would be of more value to the Astros than the average team, I would think at least. Yeah, the value of that roster spot for evaluative purposes is probably also greater for the Astros, though, than for any other team. So hard to second guess him, but also pretty easy to second guess him,

depending on your perspective. It's interesting that that Pena, there's a quote from him at the end of the story where he says, we are going through a tough moment in the story of this franchise. But I take pride in being able to endure it and to transcend it and get to the point where we want to get to because that's when it's really going to feel good at the end because of this because it wasn't handed to us etc saddest quote ever yeah because what are the odds that carlos pena is going to be on yeah on a good effort and i mean this is like this is like the turkey talking about how excited he is for thanksgiving right like, it's been a long winter, but when the family comes over, you get all those pies out, you get a big old dinner.

It's going to be so much fun. Why is everybody looking at me? Right, because look what just happened to Rick Angio. You're another old high strikeout guy who's there for his chemistry. So it's kind of weird that, I mean, I guess that's what a, that's what a good clubhouse guy does, I guess, like, even if it doesn't make sense for him to be a good clubhouse guy, like he's not going to be there to see the payoff. Probably he just can't help, but, but identify so closely with the team that he feels that he will be there or he'll be there in spirit or

something and I guess I mean I don't know he could he could parlay his his good clubhouse guyness into a front office job or a coaching job with the Astros if he wanted to and and maybe then he'll be around but but it's interesting I don't know if I were Carlos Pena I feel like But it's interesting. I don't know. If I were Carlos Pena, I feel like I wouldn't identify that closely with the franchise. I don't know. I was never a very good clubhouse guy when I played baseball. Yeah, my entire goal when I played baseball was to get one more at bat. Yeah, I don't know. So if I made an out in the like in the last inning i lost all interest yeah i well i i never had any interest in the outcome of any any game that i played in uh i wasn't i wasn't a bad clubhouse guy i wasn't like fighting with anyone or anything

but i i just always kind of felt like it's 8th grade like what does it matter ultimately if we beat this other school in this game so that didn't go over so well when the coaches were trying to fire us up yeah

alright so we will be back with one more show this week the big episode 200