Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2007: Catch As Catcher Can

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about Shohei Ohtani’s near-cycle and newly hot hitting on days when he’s pitched, the Cardinals reinstating Willson Contreras at catcher (and Zac Gallen’s comments on the Cardinals Way), the Sean Murphy/William Contreras/Esteury Ruiz trade revisited, post-peak Christian Yelich and the breakout of Brent Rooker, the dominant Rays’ possible vulnerability, […]

Discussing baseball news pedantically And the colonies said erotically Staff loss, pass, blast, and better for free Three new episodes for us each week. Be factively wild. Be factively wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2007 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters.

I'm Meg Raleigh of Fangraphs, and I am joined as always by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? I'm all right. How are you? Negative. Oh, no. Oh, for COVID. Yeah. Okay. Not just in general. No, not just in general. I have a cheery disposition, you know, a rosy cheek and a negative COVID test. So doing great. All right. Yeah. Well, I feel even safer co-hosting this podcast with you now, even though we're never contagious from as far away as you are. No.

But that's good. Yeah. You can now move about freely. Yeah. I'm going to leave. We're going to record. And then, Ben, I might leave the house. Wow. Yeah. I'm going to leave. We're going to record. And then, Ben, I might leave the house. Wow. Wow. I probably won't, but I'm also negative for COVID as far as I know.

There you go. Good. So I have an update also on Shohei Otani, who is also quite a positive person. And it turns out that he can hit now when he pitches. I did a stat blast about this some time ago, episode 1903, which was, I believe, last September toward the end of the season. And I noted that to that point, Shohei Otani had struggled, relatively speaking, on days when he pitched. When he was also hitting, there was a sizable disparity between his offensive stats on pitching days and non-pitching days. And we talked about whether that meant anything. And it has regressed in a good way thus far. So as people probably noticed, Shohei Otani came close to cycling on Monday. He pitched seven innings. He got the W. He gave up some dingers, as he's been doing from time to time, perhaps throwing a few too many sweepers to opposite-handed hitters, possibly. And he came up in the ninth with the chance for the cycle. He needed a double, and he didn't get it.

I enjoyed his quote about this through his interpreter. I was definitely happy to see that walk. Mike Trout walked ahead of him to give Otani one last shot at him. I was definitely happy to see that walk give me a shot for the cycle, but I failed. He singled. He got his fourth hit of the day. He failed to complete the cycle, but you got to be pretty happy about that day, I would think. He also had a quote here because someone told him, I guess, that he had had five times on base because he also walked. And so he was the first pitcher since 1964 to reach

base five times in a game. Mel Stottlemyre was the last to do it. And I guess you could quibble over, is he a pitcher when he does that? Or is he acting as a DH? He's two and one on those days. But they told him that he was the first to reach base in almost 60 years, five times in a game. And he said, I'm sure all those records come because the sample size is so small. So I don't really look too deeply into it. So he has an appreciation for samples. I don't know whether he means like the sample of pitcher slash hitters, like two-way players. Yeah.

Or whether he means just pitchers who were competent offensive performers or just the fact that there weren't as many pitchers hitting as there were other positions. I don't know exactly what he meant by that, but it takes a lot probably to impress him, I would imagine, after all this time. After he has impressed us and perhaps himself with his many accomplishments on the field. Including a home run that seemed like it went all the way to Jupiter, potentially. Like, did it go out of our solar system? That was, yeah, it was stopped by a wall. But if there had not been a wall and a fence there. Might have gone forever. Yeah, that was very much one of those, it kept going. It was still, it wasn't rising, actually. Sometimes they say that. But it was still traveling at quite a pace. It was, what, 115 miles per hour and 456 feet or something like that.

Just hitting in a part of the park where you don't usually see balls hit. But updating now his numbers as a pitcher on the days when he pitches. I never know quite how to describe it. But it wasn't just that game. In 41 play appearances on pitching days this year, he's hit 444, 500, 694. So when you roll it all up, I had given the splits from 2021 to 2022 because he didn't hit on pitching days before that. This is all, by the way, courtesy of Lucas Pasteleris of Baseball Perspectives, who sent me the numbers.

Over those two seasons, the split was 185 plate appearances on pitching days. He had a 762 OPS and 1120 plate appearances on non-pitching days. He had a 944 OPS. So what about 180 points of OPS? That's a big difference. Now though, updating for his hot 40 plus plate appearances as a pitcher on pitching days this year, he now has 226 career plate appearances on pitching days and his OPS is up to 840. OPS is up to 840 and his position player OPS now from 2021 to 2023, 1,259 plate appearances, 934. So 934 versus 840. So now it's down from almost a 200 plate appearance, a 200 OPS point split to less than a 100 OPS point split. So I guess speaking of small samples, that was another one.

And it looks like that has regressed or normalized or he has figured out how to manage his workload in such a way that he's able to be a big offensive contributor on those days too. Boy, what can't he do? Did you – I assume that you watched this game because – Yes. Yeah. Which broadcast did you listen to? Did you listen to the Angels broadcast or the Orioles broadcast? Angels.

So, I think I had the Orioles broadcast on and they were talking about Otani. And claiming that he could be a plus center fielder today, right now, if he wasn't pitching, just to complicate your little queries, Ben. And I ask you as the foremost both expert and enthusiast, someone who contemplated a career change to purely cover Shohei Otani. Didn't end up applying for that position. I don't know whether it's been filled or not, but not by me. Yeah. And so I wonder, Ben,

what do you think about that? So today as in Phil Nevin pencils him into center field today? Or today as in he decided in spring training this year that he was going to be a center fielder or heading into next year that he's going to be a center fielder and he has time to prepare and shag flies and everything. The way that it seemed like it was being put was today.

Like, you know, Mike gets stuck in traffic, can't get to the ballpark. They are beside themselves. They don't know what to do. And so they're like, I guess we ought to run Shohei out there. I would say probably not. Probably not.

I think just having seen, like, look at the players who are making those adjustments, like Jazz Chisholm, for instance, or Fernando Tatis, not to center, but Chisholm, like, he's looked a lot better. Like, he's gotten better over time and the metrics have improved.

And then I know he kind of ran into the wall and hurt himself. But he made a lot of errors and flubs that looked like, oh, he's switching positions. He's new out there. Yeah, right. It was clear that he had the physical abilities and tools, I think, to play that position. Because when the Marlins announced that he was changing, it was like, oh think, to play that position. Because when the Marlins announced that he was changing, it was like, oh, okay, well, that's one of your franchise players. Like, this is a risk. You have a bunch of people playing out of position. But it wasn't

like he can't handle center given enough time and practice. So I would probably put Otani in that category of like, if you stuck him out there today, I don't think he'd be a plus centerfielder now he has played outfield briefly as a professional early in his npb career he played corners at least and i'm sure that like his speed and his reactions and his athleticism and all of that he's pretty big i guess for a centerfielder but i don't see why he he couldn't play a competent center field, but probably not tonight. I mean, you know, he'd be fine on routine plays, I'm sure, but he'd probably also make some screw-ups out there as he got the hang of it. Yeah. I think it's a testament to him that even for a very talented athlete who has

the sort of speed and athleticism to range around out there. You're right. Like, it takes some period of adjustment if you're contemplating a position switch. And he mostly played right field when he was a fielder, right? But it is a testament to him that I was like, well, what if he? And then I was like, no. But I did think about it for a second. I contemplated the possibility and I was like, me yeah yeah i i do feel like we've been deprived of seeing what kind of fielder he would

be i mean we get to see him do so much already yeah don't get greedy got it no i but i always do he makes me greedy because he does all these wondrous things and then i'm like well what else could he do and i wouldn't like to see like could he be a gold glove type outfielder if he was playing outfield every day? I don't see why not. Right. So the fact that we call him a two-way player, whereas he doesn't play the fields except when he's pitching and fielding as a pitcher. Right. pitcher right so he's a dh which allows him to demonstrate some of his skills and skills that no other pitcher possesses but doesn't let us see just what kind of athlete he is in the field other

than the odds uh covering first base and come back or kind of play like clearly he can field his position quite well but it would be a treat like if something were to happen to him where he weren't able to pitch anymore and i'm not saying i want that to happen i. Like, if something were to happen to him where he weren't able to pitch anymore, and I'm not saying I want that to happen. I'm just saying if that were to happen, the silver lining, I guess, would be that, hey, if he could still play a position in the field every day, well, now he gets to be a complete position player and we get to see how good he'd be at that. But again, no monkey's paw situation here. I want him to continue to pitch. I'm OK with being deprived of his glove for the most part, but I'm sure it'd be a good one. Especially now that he can hit on those pitching days. Yeah, exactly. And while we're talking about people who can field and now get to field again, I guess we can close the book on the Wilson Contreras debacle, right?

Can we? Are we going to be allowed that? Who knows, right? But the short national nightmare or local regional nightmare appears to be over now. And I don't know whether the fact that they went back on this so quickly that they're like, okay, Wilson Contreras, he's catching it. In a way, I mean, okay, it's good, I guess, that they acknowledge the error of their ways implicitly, tacitly, right? And the fact that they kind of got crushed by every commentator, they could have doubled down and been super stubborn and said, well, if we flip-flop this quickly, then in a way, it will make us look even sillier that we did that in the first place or the way that they did it, right? So at least they didn't double down, but inevitably it does in a way make you question even more what they were thinking by going about it the way that they did. Because if the possibility was out there that he was going to be catching again in like 10 days or so, then why would you put yourself through that?

So he's back at catcher on Monday, catching Jack Flaherty and Contreras, I think, went hitless, but Flaherty pitched well. The Cardinals won 18 to 1. So I guess all is right with that little part of the world, at least for right now. All is something. Got to imagine. Yeah, there's got to be like a little lingering bitterness about the way that went down. I would think so.

I would think that you'd look around and be like, this feels like a bad time, a bad, bad time. But I don't know. I guess you're right. I'm glad that they're course correcting, but they have an air of messiness about them, you know? And that's so unusual for the Cardinals. Sometimes you're like, be a little messier. You're making us all feel bad about ourselves because we exist down here in mess and you do not engage in mess. And then they were like, no, we'll be very messy.

In fact, we shall do maximum mess. Yeah, really? Yeah, from the start of the season through now. It's not as if, as we've discussed, the Contreras stuff was the first bit of mess. There's been prior mess, Ben, you know? Yeah, it's a series of messes. But it's so odd, though, in retrospect, that they handled it that way because they could have avoided this so easily. Like even if they thought that he or they as a team needed a break from Wilson Contreras catching, if it wasn't going to be a long-term thing or if the possibility was there that it wouldn't be a long-term thing, then why make such a stink about it? Why draw so much attention to it?

Why come out and announce and just draw the spotlight? Like, you could have either just not really said anything. I mean, you could have said, like, we're giving Wilson a little breather or a break back there or something, or you could have just not said anything. I mean, you would have been asked about it. Why isn't he catching today? But he's not someone who was caught every single day his entire career. I mean, you could DH him sometimes. You could play him in other positions. He's done that before. So it wouldn't have been the biggest story in baseball if he was not catching or catching part-time for a little while. And instead, they chose to just make this announcement and conflicting reports and come out and declare he's not catching anymore.

And then next thing you know, Ollie Marbles, he'll be our catcher moving forward. It's like, I'm looking forward to seeing him catch again. Are you? I mean, you could have been catching all that time. It's interesting because when I talked to Will Leach about this, I noted that as messy as this seemed and as much as it didn't really seem to be in the best interest of the Cardinals as far as not only keeping one of your stars happy, but also just aligning your resources and the players you have at various positions, but that probably the Cardinals would play better than they had played to that point just because they had been underperforming to such an extent. And we thought they were a pretty good team. And that is kind of what happened during this little interregnum during the Wilson Contreras DH era. I think the Cardinals went 6-2, right? But it wasn't that they were getting such great pitching during that time.

They were just scoring a billion runs. Yeah, right. It's like, oh, Nolan Arnauto remembered how to hit. Okay, well, that helps. Yes, turns out. I doubt it had anything to do with Wilson Gutierrez DH-ing unless, you know, he was on the bench so much more often that he was able to give Nolan Arnauto some batting tips. That was probably it. But really, like the starting pitching during that span, I think the Cardinals had a 5-plus ERA from their starters and were like 27th in starting pitcher war or something.

So it wasn't like they moved Wilson Contreras to DH and suddenly everyone started pitching well. The pitching problem was what we thought it was, which is that the pitchers weren't that great. So that part didn't change. So maybe it would look like, oh, straight genius. The Cardinals suddenly started winning, but it wasn't because of the thing that purportedly Contreras was hurting with, hurting not that they acknowledged that he was hurting it because they were like, we're not

losing games because of Wilson Couture's catching. However, we are going to stop Wilson Couture's from catching. Yeah. It's just such a strange episode. Yeah. The whole thing was so bizarre too, because, you know, coming into the season, we anticipated that their pitching would be kind of shaky at a minimum and yeah and we understood that if there's a knock on Contreras it's that the defense is often wanting right and when you combine those things it seemed like it had the potential to be a little at least a little bit combustible I remember when we did our preview we asked about the defense in particular, like what are what is giving them comfort that they are going to be able to, you know, sort of move this around in a way that's meaningful. So it just it seemed like, OK, you surely you know what your potential like pitfalls are, right? Like, you know, the places on the roster where if everything goes

i mean i wasn't even gonna say if everything breaks bad if everything goes kind of the way you expect it to that you know you're gonna have problems so be prepared to talk about that in a way that doesn't make it sound like you know different factions of your roster want to murder right and then and then and then ben they have they have all the stuff happen with tyler o'neill and we're like okay surely they've gotten that out of their system right like they know that they could and not that i want to encourage teams to lie to the media but that they could you know maybe finesse this a little bit better and save themselves some pain and they're like no we're we're uninterested in doing that fact, we would like to make it even worse because

this guy definitely sticking around for a long time. It was so bizarre. What an odd bit of business. And again, just a team that is typically almost antiseptic in its lack of mess. And then this time they're like, no, no.

Bring the mess. It's like they're having all the mess out there at once. Yeah, right. It's like we can't buy a Corvette because we're a baseball team and that's not how midlife crises manifest. But you know what we can do? Be very messy. Yeah. And I talked to Will about maybe it was just that they were appeasing their pitchers.

If their pitchers were up in arms for some reason, they just had Yachty withdrawal and they didn't like throwing to Contreras. Maybe it was just like, well, there's one Wilson Contreras and they're a bunch of pitchers. So maybe it was just, you know, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few kind of thing. And they just sort of said, fine, you know, pitchers outnumber the catcher. So we'll give them what they want. And I don't know, like that hasn't really been confirmed, but there was a report. Now, caveats apply. This was a Bob Nightingale USA Today report, but

he did cite a high-ranking Cardinals official who he said told USA Today Sports that the reason was quite simple, that the starting pitchers told management they simply no longer wanted to pitch to Contreras. So that was the report from Nightingale. Now, it sounds like, now I'm reading a post-dispatch story, that Contreras just kind of put his foot down, that he met with people. He had a meeting with Flaherty and Wainwright. He had a meeting with the Cardinals brass. He said, I told them that I'm ready to catch. I'm not just going to be a DH. For me, it's really hard to just be a DH when I know that I can be behind the plate. So it sounds like, you know, he kind of threw his weight around a little bit, probably. And he also said, and I think he's handled this about as well as you could handle it. I mean, he hasn't come out and blasted anyone. Like, it's clear that he wasn't pleased, but he kind of kept it in the clubhouse in a way that maybe the Cardinals didn't so much.

But he was asked if he has made changes to his preparation, and he said, No. No, basically no. He said, it's all the same. I don't think I had to change anything. It's my game. There were a couple suggestions the pitchers made about the target, a little lower, a little higher,

things like that makes them better, which is cool. Nothing more than that. And I'll link to Noah Woodward, who was a guest on the show not long ago. He did a little piece looking at Wilson Contreras' targets and noted that, yeah, maybe there are times when he sets the target in sort of a strange way, like on Rio, he'll set up outside the zone and maybe that makes it harder for pitchers to throw a strike there. Or maybe he's set up too close to the zone when the pitcher's ahead and should be throwing more outside the zone. So there are little things like that that potentially he could tweak that you could have legitimate gripes with.

But it just seemed like such an overreaction and i like that he was just like yeah no i didn't do anything it's just like he kind of stuck to his guns i mean he's just like you know i deserve to catch and they caved they acquiesced i guess or they just decided that this was such bad pr for them that it was making them look worse to stick with this than it would be to just go back on this resolution. Yeah, like, I don't think that anyone is making the claim that Wilson Contreras is like a defensively perfect or even ideal catcher. Like, we have noted the flaws in his defense, which, you know, again, we were aware of coming into this offseason,

and I'm sure the Cardinals were aware of coming into this offseason. But it's like you look at, you know, you look at our roster resource payroll pages, and guess who's a free agent after this year? Not Wilson Contreras. Guess who's a free agent after this year? Many of the pitchers who complained about him. Like, on some level, I'm sure someone in the Cardinals front office is like, what are we doing here?

Like, this guy's going to be on our team until at least the end of the 2027 season. Like, we got to figure this out. This isn't a tenable situation for us. And they're going to have to do so much to replace their rotation this offseason. And I'm sure that they want this kind of nonsense, like, sorted out before they go out in the market and try to do that, right? Like, it just seems, again, such mess. Right. Yeah. I guess the positive for him, other than the fact that he gets to catch again now, is that it kind of reflected well on him how he handled it. It made everyone else involved look worse than it did Wilson

Contreras, even though he was the one who was sort of being thrown under the bus. And since that, it seems like pitchers are going out of their way to compliment him and talk about how great a job he's doing. And Jack Flaherty say, yeah, you know, I was never talking about Contreras. I was frustrated with myself and he did such a wonderful job on Monday, et cetera, et cetera. But Cardinals fans really backed him. It seemed like they were frustrated,

not with his play, but with the way the team was treating him. So he sort of emerged from this kind of looking like the bigger person. Yeah, like an adult the bigger person. Yeah. Like an adult in the room. Yeah, right. So maybe not the worst thing from his perspective.

Although I'm sure it was quite awkward and uncomfortable and annoying to be the subject of that. And who knows if it poisons the well with that relationship long term or if it's just water under the bridge and they all move past it. that relationship long term or if it's just water under the bridge and they all move past it and if they play better and continue to play well as a team that will obviously go a long way towards smoothing things over yeah i was gonna say i think that that will depend as much on the amount of success they have in the next little bit as it will on any actual sort of persistent interpersonal nonsense um i don't it's not as if you if you start winning and then you're like, actually, I realize that guy's my best friend. I was mistaken.

But you probably, you know, you can always put up with work annoyance better when things are going well in the aggregate. You know, the little things tend to bother you more when everything else is falling down around you. It's like, well, he keeps microwaving fish and we're behind budget and my sales are down. So I can, you know, probably fixate more comfortably on the fish thing. So I'm going to fixate on the fish thing.

It felt like them fixating on the fish thing, Ben. Yes. Yeah, it did. But don't microwave fish at work. Like, aren't we past this as a civilization? I mean, like, I haven't had to deal with it in a really long time, Fixating on the fish thing, Ben. Yes. Yeah, it did. But don't microwave fish at work. Like, aren't we past this as a civilization? I mean, like, I haven't had to deal with it in a really long time. But, you know, I remember it. I remember it happening when I worked in an office.

And, like, that wasn't so long ago. Yeah. No. Not great office etiquette. No. But at the same time, you also had Zach Gallen, who leads all major leaguers in fan graphs were not just pitchers, but all of them. He kind of took a little shot at the Cardinals. They had these quote unquote voluntary off-season workouts, which I hate. I hate the like voluntary meetings and voluntary workouts. It's like if I have to go, just tell me that.

If not, then no, unless I think it's going to be helpful. But he kind of got pressured into ultimately attending those and he didn't go to some for a while. And he felt like at least that may have hurt his standing in the organization. So he went and he said, I got to the exit meeting and they're like, yeah, you didn't really have to be there. Thanks for coming down. No. So the Cardinals made this whole big stink about me coming down and on the way home, they traded me. I guess they weren't too happy about me not wanting to go to the winter workout camp. They traded me.

I guess they weren't too happy about me not wanting to go to the winter workout camp. And, you know, he said, like, players don't get paid for those. They don't get paid. And he said, if you know the Cardinals, you know they have their certain ways about how they go about some things. It's the famous Cardinals way, right? And so many teams have their own way. And the Cardinals way is famous because the Cardinals famous. And they've had a lot of success and maybe their way has been codified and has been around a lot longer. And when the Cardinals are

doing well, which usually they are, then people attribute success to that. And when they're scuffling as they were to start the season, then people maybe look askance at the Cardinals way and say, is this costing them in certain respects? So it's really all about how your team is going as a whole. But yeah, maybe there is a little bit of conforming to the Cardinals way. And if Wilson Contreras wasn't conforming to the catching way that Yadier Molina had made so successful, then maybe he wasn't going to fit into the box that they were trying to put him in, but he's back and Zach Allen is dominating for the diamondbacks. So he's just,

uh, he's so good and so fun to watch. I have a, I have a Zach Allen bobblehead now. Oh, nice. Yeah. My God,

I got a diamondbacks game, Ben. Yeah, I do. So I want to, uh, I don't want to let the Cardinals off the hook for their way. I want to just give everyone grief.

This was part of our conversation when we were discussing the silliness of minor leaguers not being paid year-round. Because it clearly affects your standing in the organization, right? It clearly affects your standing in the organization, right? It gets put into that broad makeup bucket that we all, I think, are increasingly sort of looking askance at and being like, what are we really talking about when we're talking about that? And if it can affect your standing in the organization and the expectation is that you're there, you should get paid for it. Controversial take. I agree. Yeah.

So I did want to say, I'm just looking at the leaderboard and thinking about catchers. And catchers named Contreras, Sean Murphy, very close to the top of that war leaderboard as well. Yeah. In fact, I think he trails only Gallen and his teammate, Ronald Acuna, in NL war. And he is seventh in MLB war with 2.1 as we speak on Tuesday. And just assessing that offseason trade, which we talked about so much this winter, we were all kind of wondering, like, the A's traded the best player in this deal. But also it seems like maybe the Brewers got the second best player of this deal.

William Contreras is tied for the war lead on the Milwaukee Brewers right now. He's tied with Christian Jelic, who is, you know, he's having a fine year, Christian Jelic. Like he's not having, you know, otherworldly Christian Jelic. It's weird. Other than that, like, two-season, you know, year-long period, it wasn't even, like, two full years. It was, like, 13 months or something that Christian Jelic was, like, the best player in baseball. Other than that, when he had, like, a 170 WRC plus for a while and was, like, a seven-win player, if we forgot that ever happened, then he'd look quite consistent and like a solid, good player.

You know, he's been good. Like last year, he's been a little bit above average at the plate. And he's always a good base runner and a good stealer. And he's going to give you pretty good defense, too. Like, you know, good player. Yeah, but in left now. Yes, that is true. But it's almost like he's the victim of his extreme success for a season or two there where he became the best

player of baseball. Now everything he does is a disappointment. Whereas before that, I guess it was kind of like, can he be better than this? Even though he was like a five, six win player for the Marlins at times, like really good player, but it seemed like there was more, and there was more for a while. Anyway, he's tied for the Brewers' war lead with William Contreras, who has been really good. So two of the three headliners in that trade, the catchers, they are basically leading their respective teams,

or very close to it, right? You know, either second or tied for first. And Estiari Ruiz, you know, he's not as productive as those guys were. He's third in war on the A's, which... Yeah, feels not great, probably. No. So, but like, you know, I guess at least according to fan graphs, it depends on the defensive metric.

But he's been a positive contributor. You know, he's been a league average hitter. Stealed a bunch of bases. Yeah, leading the majors, I believe, with 19 steals now. So, look, if he could be a league average hitter and a league leading base dealer and give you decent defense. I mean, the metrics are sort of, you know, he's negative nine according to DRS in center field this year,

but he's zero in outs above average. So I don't know how much of that is arm or what. Right, yeah. That's a pretty big disparity. Yeah, it's a wide gap. Even this early, that feels right. So if he could even just hold his own at the plate because the concern was like he's going to get the bat knocked out of his hands yeah he'll have no power right

and you know he hasn't hit for a lot of power but if he could be a league average hitter and a league leading base dealer and a decent center fielder yeah that that's a good player you know like i i don't know if that's uh the headliner that you should get back for sean murphy but but it's good it's like a productive big leaguer it'd be kind of cool if if all three of those guys ended up leading their respective teams in war this year i don't know if that has ever happened i'm sure it has happened many times that players traded for each other would would their respective rosters, but a three-team trade, I don't know whether that's happened. That'd be kind of cool.

It would be cool. Not that I wish ill upon Brent Rooker, who is leading the A's in Warren, has been one of the best stories in baseball. How about that? Yeah, just like a classic, almost like a throwback to the A's, like finding free talent guys, you know, like just were minor league

mashers and maybe dismissed as quad A guys. And then the A's really gave them a chance where no one else would. And then they raked. I mean, it's sort of that same story, right? Where Rooker was with the Padres. He was with the Royals. The A's got him off waivers from the Royals just in November. You know, like the Royals, the Royals could use good hitters and good players in general. And yeah, Brent Rooker has been fantastic at 28 years old. It is good in the minors, obviously, that you would think he'd be this kind of major league player where he's like leading the majors in home runs and slugging percentage and OPS and OPS plus as we speak. So I don't know if he can keep that up or whether eventually like fewer balls will go over the fence and the swing and miss will come back to bite him. Right. But but it seems like he could at least be a decent slugger type, and the A's just need anyone who's good. But I'm just saying, I hope that he keeps it up, but also it'd be cool if Estere Ruiz were good enough that he caught up with Rooker and led his team too.

That'd be fun. I just always feel so bad for guys involved in those traits, because it's not ruiz's fault right like nothing about this is his fault and he's doing the best he can he looks great like the you know he he looks strong he looks good in the body i was watching them last night because the d-backs were playing them boy the d-backs got broadcast got a lot of mileage out of the attendance. Oh, yeah. It was down to, what, 2,000, right? Yeah. Under 2,100.

They mostly did a good job of knowing who the villain of that story was, to be clear. I don't want to disparage that booth unnecessarily, but they sure talked about it a lot. Yeah, like he's, you know, he seems like a competent big leaguer. Part of his profile is super fun, right? The stolen base thing is super exciting. And I think particularly on a team that is giving its fans so little to cheer about.

Like stolen bases are fun and cool. And so that's nice and you know there are some good stories on that ace team despite them being just like unforgivably bad um in the aggregate but it's hard to see any of those when you know the thing you look for at the ballpark isn't the guys on the field but the signs that the fans are bringing um but uh sean murphy sure good william contraris good defender now good job brewers they've um we seem to have a knack for that. Yeah, they seem to be helping. There might be a piece forthcoming at Fangraphs later this week about his defense, in fact. So keep an eye out for that, Brewers fans.

Omar Narvaez, transformation molds. But yeah, I think Brooker, he seems like kind of a come-out-of-nowhere guy, but he was a first-round pick. It's not ancient history. It's 2017. Right. And he second to last pick in the first round, but still first rounder. And he won the SEC Triple Crown. He was a top 100 guy at least one year, according to Baseball America, toward the bottom of the top 100.

But still, he was on there. Productive college bat for sure. Yeah. And he hit in the minors and i always root for guys who hit the minors to get their shot and convert it in the majors and i guess that's the one plus of a team being as terrible as the a's is that they might give an extended audition to someone like that or like hand them a job you know just because they've traded everyone else.

And it's like, well, how about Brent Rooker? We'll pick him up from waivers and we'll just give him a shot. Yeah. And, you know, he'll make the league minimum and, you know. But a guy like that, he needs playing time. And sometimes it might come in a place where no one is coming to the park to see you, but he's still gotten a lot of acclaim and attention around the majors. So I'm always happy for someone like that. Yeah, I mean, like, it's for a cynical reason. And I think that we are right to kind of keep our eyes on the prize when it comes to that piece. But yeah, you got waiver claim.

Do you got rule five guys? You know, there's there again, there are good stories here. It's just that it's impossible to divorce those stories from the bigger story of the Oakland A's. And so, you know, you, you, you struggle, I think, or we struggle a little bit in how to talk about this stuff because you want to acknowledge those individual achievements. And you're right that, you know, the, the A's aren't dedicating payroll for the most part. But if you're a guy who's used to playing in the minors and now you're making the big league minimum for a whole season,

like that's life altering in terms of your experience of it, even if it isn't generational money like you might see a free agent bring in. But I don't want that to obscure the bigger story because the story of this a's team when the season is done isn't gonna be brent rooker right it's not gonna be whatever ruiz becomes and it's not gonna be noda or any of these guys it's gonna be you be, you know, John Fisher. And that needs to be the story. But, you know, these guys famously at this point don't get to decide where they play, at least the ones that we're talking about right now.

So I don't want to give them short shrift just because their boss sucks. A lot of people's bosses suck, you know. That's not unique to the A's. So it's a tricky thing, Ben. Yeah. Well, we'll see which binding agreement with Las Vegas real estate people ends up actually being binding. How many more binding agreements will there be? How, how, how do you not have... This isn't like when the rest of us have a small administrative task that we forget for a couple of months and then we're like, oh, crap, I still got to do that.

Like, you know, I have to take my ballot to the ballot box today. But, you know, don't you want that sorted? Don't you want those I's dotted and T's crossed before you're like, hey, peace out, Oakland? It's just like, it's not going to happen. But wouldn't it be the funniest thing if the city of oakland was like we're not renewing your lease and then vegas is like what are you talking about we didn't have anything set and then they what they have to go play at their triple a park nicer facility oh man what a mess yeah their their spring training

field is nicer than the coliseum. Ho-Ho Camp is nice. And they have a good beer garden up top now. So, you know, fun facts from Meg to you. Brent Rooker, in my mind, is a left-handed hitter. In reality, he is not. I've kind of conflated him with Jack Cust, I think, just because Jack Cust was also a late first-round pick who had been with the Padres and then in his age 28 season, just like Brent Rooker, finally got a starting job in the majors and hit quite well. Right. And was sort of the same, you know, like strikeout and power and patience type of guy fit in that A's mold. But Rooker, not actually a left handed hitter. But in my mind, he is. He should be. And so it's not that he is broken out because he's, like, taken advantage of no shift or fewer extreme shifts.

Although I saw a post from Tom Tango on his site that actually began with you. It quoted you. Me? Yeah. Me, Meg? You, Meg. Yeah. What did I do?

The first sentence of the post says, a few years ago, noted baseball thinker Meg Raleigh. Thanks, John. Eloquently presented the case on national TV. It all depends on what aesthetic of baseball you want. Oh, yeah. That was the time I went on MLB Network and made Brian Kenney talk about aesthetics. And then I was like, I guess I can retire now.

I've accomplished my goals. Right. So he used that as a jumping off point to talk about the effect of the defensive positioning restrictions. Right. And what he did, it's a good reason to be brought up. Yeah. Noted baseball thinker. Yeah. Noted baseball thinker. He looked at every left-handed hitter since 2020 and split their performance between left-handed pitchers and right-handed pitchers. And he looked at the 2020 to 22 performance in the before bucket and then the 2023 after and then weighted it properly so that certain players aren't overrepresented, etc.

So he found that of those left-handed hitters, the previous WOBA weighted on base average in the shift era was 321. And those same players' current WOBA in the post-shift or at least over-shift era, also 321. So he said, yes, after all the massive change in defensive alignments, we simply get back to where we always were. It's just that now, well, it's about the aesthetics. It wasn't about getting more offense or less offense. It was a, pardon the pun, shift in aesthetics or restoration anyway. He noted that for righties, he did the same thing for right-handed hitters. And as he's written, as I've written, the righty shifts always seem to be

odd and overused because they never seem to work that well. And so he did find that right-handed hitters have actually suffered from the shift ban, which is, you know, it's kind of ironic. It's like you're limiting the defense and right-handed hitters are hurting. If anything, Brett Rooker should be doing worse because there's no shift, right? So right-handed hitters are hurting. If anything, Brett Rooker should be doing worse because there's no shift, right? So right-handed hitters are not benefiting from that. So the right-handed hitters as a group went from 331, their previous WOVA, to 321.

So he found that basically the rules saved the teams from making the mistake of shifting too much on right-handed hitters. So essentially he's saying that like lefties, people were forecasting, oh, it's going to be a big boost for them. And basically as a group, it just hasn't seemed to do anything. The effects have largely seemed muted. And you can break it down and look at BABIP,

and you can look at BABIP on ground balls or by certain handedness. However you slice it, it seems to be a fairly small difference. And so when Tom says it was never about getting more offense or less offense, it was about aesthetics. I guess, you know, ostensibly it was about more offense, right? Like that was definitely part of the stated rationale. Yes. But I guess part of it also was just like, we want baseball to look like it used to look and we want people to get less frustrated about hits being taken away by the shift that they used to think would be hits. And now it's not a hit. And then they get mad about it because you didn't have to, you didn't used to have someone standing there. Right. So I guess maybe ultimately it has turned out largely to be about aesthetics and we'll see if they decide, well, this wasn't enough and we need to bring in the pie slice rule and we need further restrictions.

But thus far, it doesn't seem to have done a whole lot other than just that aesthetic takeaway of certain things are hits that wouldn't have been and vice versa. Yeah, it feels at least a little revisionist to say that it wasn't about increasing offense. I think that that was an understood, if not stated, goal on the league's part. But I think the point that it is also about, you know, inspiring particular kinds of offenses well taken. You know, if you're gonna quote a noted baseball thinker, the only one who thinks about aesthetics as much as I do. It was so windy that day. And I was just hair down, you know, at the mercy of the elements. Got a little microphone.

I couldn't tuck my hair behind my ear because I was worried about dislodging the microphone. I didn't know how to fix it, Ben. TV's really intimidating. I don't know about TV as a pursuit. It seems challenging in a way I'm not interested in. Live outdoor TV seems particularly challenging. It's just like why you put it by the pool though you know like i get your you're in vegas and they do famously have

pools there but it was december and very windy you know jeff got to wear a sweater he was like all bundled up he looked like he was an ad for like you know some resort on a moor somewhere. And here I am, my little normal shirt, no sweater, hair bluster. Clearly it left a big impression on me. Yeah. Yeah. My complaint, I guess, was also sort of aesthetic in that just I didn't like the limitations being imposed. I thought you were about to talk about the aesthetic of my hair and be like, yeah, you're probably right. No, I'm not much of a stylist, so I don't really have any tips for you in that arena. But yeah, my objection was always partly just that it was addressing not really the root

cause. Like if you think that it's going to indirectly make people have a more contact oriented approach because putting the ball in play is more beneficial, it doesn't really seem like that's going to do much. And it doesn't seem like it has thus far. So you really need to address the root of the problem, which is the pitchers throwing so hard and throwing so much better than they ever have. But also I just sort of philosophically objected to the limitations. Also, I just sort of philosophically objected to the limitations. But in practice, it's definitely not something I'm up in arms about routinely. You know, it maybe still rubs me the wrong way on some level, but not in a visceral way.

Like I'm actively getting annoyed about it. So I feel like it's just kind of much ado about nothing to this point. And if it makes some people happy that certain balls in play are hits now, fine, I guess. Some effect of it has been so small as to be difficult to measure, at least thus far. Yeah, I think that that is largely right. I mean, it's funny because I think we all wondered coming into this, will this do anything? And we thought, maybe not. And then, you know, or it won't do most of the things.

Right. And that's kind of gone under the radar, I guess, in a way that maybe MLB wouldn't be that unhappy about just because the pitch clock effects are so obvious and so pronounced and to a lesser but still great extent the stolen base uptick right that no one's really talking all that much about the shift stuff you know like if that had been the only big rule and they were like hey this is what we're doing to make the game more exciting

now and then it just kind of landed with a thud and it didn't seem to make much of a difference then i guess that might have been a story whereas now it's so overshadowed in a largely positive way by those other changes that did have the intended effects and very dramatic and obvious, and also not just affecting the scoring environment, but also aesthetically speaking, right? So they had aesthetic dimensions too. So that stuff has gotten so much attention that no one's really talking about. Oh, yeah, the shift thing. It doesn't really seem to do all that much really because it was just, you know, kind of an afterthought because of those other things. Yeah.

Yeah. Hey, Ben, I can't believe that we've gotten this far speaking of aesthetics and how things look without talking about the dumbest controversy of our time oh which one there's so many we've already talked about wisin contraris on this episode you don't you don't want to talk about the phenomena of peaking you don't want to talk about peekers who peaked judge gate yeah peaking. Yes. You can't say Aaron Judgegate. You can't. Here's a tangent rant. Are you ready for a tangent rant?

Sure. People don't stop it with gate to everything. Okay. The Watergate. It's a specific place. It's 50 years ago. Yeah. Well, my issue, it was dumb. It was dumb when people started affixing it to controversies much more temporally proximate to Watergate than this.

I'm not yelling at you. I mean, I am yelling at you, but I'm not yelling at you, Ben. I'm just a proxy for everyone else. Yeah, it's a specific, it's not a gate-related controversy. It's a name of a place. It's a hotel. Anyway, I am just saying that it has always bothered me. And I know I'm in the minority,

but that doesn't mean I'm wrong, Ben. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. I just think we have, I find myself caught between my obligations to the podcast to mention relevant and timely baseball news and my deep desire

for people to never talk about this ever again. And what do we do except briefly, just like a little sprinkle of talking about it, which is that guys peak. Guys peak all the time. Guys, they're constantly peaking. They're peaking back at the catcher to try to see where the catcher is setting up. They, in this particular case, seemed like they were peeking back at a catcher who was setting up very early, you know, perhaps indicating what, what and where of the pitch, you know, they are looking at the base coaches to see if the base coaches have anything to offer them in terms of, um, you know, uh,

a sign that would indicate what ball is coming. Sometimes they're looking at the dugout because sometimes those guys are figuring things out and all of that is totally normal. And within the context of baseball, and I understand that the, that the banging scheme broke all of our brains. I get, I understand.

And I understand why now we look at things and we see shadows and shadowy figures. And I'm not saying that the Yankees aren't cheating. I have no idea. I don't think that this is indicative of that any which way because guys peak all the time. They're always peaking, you know? They're peakers.

So anyway, that's what happened with the peaking, in my opinion. And you have Pitch Calm. Just use Pitch Calm. What are we doing? Why? Yeah. I'm not as anti the gate construction as you are, I think. Let's talk about the really important thing, which is the Watergate scandal.

Yeah. I think it's kind of useful just to be able to append gate to something and convey that it's a scandal. Although I think we probably over-apply it in the sense that like— We got some loose gates, free-swinging gates. Yeah, Watergate was a pretty big one, you know, as far as scandals go. And so we're applying the gate to Aaron Judge sort of looking at the Yankees bench while he was hitting. It's not quite like, you know, the same national and international import probably as the Watergate scandal. No.

But I'm with you on the takeaway here. And I couldn't tell exactly what was happening. It seemed like, you know, someone on Reddit was breaking it down and suggesting that maybe the catcher, Alejandro Kirk for the Blue Jays, was going like one knee down. But depending on the pitch type, it would be a different knee, right? And so you could maybe tell us it's going to be a fastball or a breaking ball by which knee he was putting down. And if that was, in fact, what was happening, well, that's something that Aaron Judge can't

really see while he is in the batter's box facing forward, alert to the pitcher, as they say. And there is such a thing as peeking, but it would be extremely obvious if he were to fully turn around and see at that point. I can just imagine, what are you doing back there? What's your plan? So if Kirk was doing that, then maybe that's something that the Yankees bench would be better positioned to see. And so Aaron Judge could just kind of shiftily look over there and get some cue to say, oh, right knee down, left knee down, and then he would know what was coming.

I don't know. Watching this in real time seemed like it would be tough because at least on a pitch or two that I watched, like the knee was going down pretty late, like as the pitcher was getting into his delivery. So I don't really know whether there would be time to look over there and pick up on that sign and for that sign to be given and, and then to collect yourself to hit, but maybe, maybe that's what it was, or maybe it was something else judge when he was asked about it.

At first he sort of feigned not knowing what the question was about, or maybe it legitimately didn't. And then he said that it was about chirping from the dugout, like the Yankees were up 6-0. And he was saying that they were still chirping over there. Aaron Boone got thrown out of that game, right? He gets ejected a lot. He does get ejected a lot. For someone who seems fairly mild-mannered, usually, at least in interviews. Not always, but on the field, he gets heated sometimes. I looked recently, he has one of the higher ejection rates in history

for any manager with a large sample. Anyway, Judge said that it was about the bench was chirping and he didn't really want them to be chirping at that time in the game or something like that, which could be true or it could just be a cover story. But if it was just peaking, yeah, that's all well and good. That's within the bounds, right? And teams are entitled to police that's often with unwritten rules. It's about trying to dissuade people from doing things that would benefit them and hurt you. So in this case, they don't want Aaron Judge peaking. Well, the Blue Jays can talk about it and their manager can bring it up and say, yeah, and suggest that he was doing something semi-underhanded and that he hadn't seen a hitter do that sort of thing before. And maybe you put pressure on Judge. You know, it was the first game of a series, right? And so you're going to be facing this team and you don't want them to do that. Now, if it was that, if they were picking up on a tendency that was that obvious,

then you talk to your catcher, you know, and you probably do it privately. You know, don't come out and say, Alejandro Kirk, no longer our catcher. He's going to be an outfielder now. That would be great. No, but just. That would be great. Yeah, just privately address that. Yeah. Seems like an easy change.

But yeah, that's within the bounds, obviously, if you're not doing anything electronic. Right. But I understand why in this day and age, you know, post-banging scheme, which is such a great phrase because we don't need to add gate to it because we have banging scheme. We don't need to say Astro's gate. Right. We should have more schemes. I mean, to be clear, we shouldn't have actually more schemes.

But when schemes present themselves, we should label them as such. We should address them as schemes because it provides more information. It's more descriptive. Right. So this was given life because everyone's always scrutinizing everything. And then I guess it's healthy to have that scrutiny because an absence of scrutiny was, at least on MLB's part, was what led to the paying scheme in the first place or enabled it. And, you know, the Yankees have some history of some types of illegal sign stealing, right? And so, yeah, it makes sense to look at these things. But if that's all it is, then it's just the normal kind of gamesmanship and picking up on pitch tipping. i guess usually you're talking about the pitcher

tipping pitches not the catcher tipping pitches but both can happen right which is why they peak i just think it's funny that a group of in general i'll speak in general here and not say anything particular about any of the blue jays warrior and judge but like that a group of men who seem very invested in like being men have like the same manners and standards and little nitpicky bits of nonsense as like people living in regency england it's just funny but it isn't a scandal so now we have done our duty and we can be done talking about it. Yeah. It probably didn't help that Aaron Judge hit two homers in that game and hit a homer. But he does that! He does that.

He does that! He famously hits a lot of home runs. But yes, the fact that he hit a home run, I guess, in at least one of the plate appearances where he was seen to be peaking. And this was something the Blue Jays broadcast picked up on. And they should mention it. Like it was notable. It was unusual. It was attention getting. So eye catching that his eyes were doing that. And I think he seemed to be like talking to the bench when he was on the on deck circle, kind of comparing notes about it. So, yeah, it seemed like there was something

going on there, but doesn't mean that there was anything illegal. Untoward. Yeah, right. And him hitting a homer that kind of, you know, if you're inclined to think, oh, they're cheating, then the fact that he hits a homer right after that might confirm your suspicion. But yes, famously, a man who hits a lot of homers, more homers than anyone, in fact. Yeah. Well, not more homers than Barry Bonds, but many others. Just last year, specifically. Yeah, there's a restaurant.

Yeah. Are the Yankees still in last place these days? I think they are, right? It's, that's, you know, like, I look at that division now, and we've talked plenty about it. They are not, as of this morning, the Red Sox. They have leapfrogged the Red Sox. Yeah, the Red Sox. They've leapfrogged the Red Sox. Yeah, the Red Sox. Well, that's because, you know, everyone is out here talking about big tall man,

and they should be talking about the big dumper who hit a home run, one from each side of the plate, which was the first time a catcher had done that at Fenway in 10,000 years. It was a fun fact because it involved a guy who we routinely refer to as the Big Dumper. That's Cal Raleigh for people who have a normal relationship to nicknames and don't own a Big Dumper t-shirt. I have a Big Dumper t-shirt, Ben. Oh, nice. Yeah. It's ridiculous.

And I cannot wait to wear it when the Mariners come to play the Diamondbacks in July. So the Yankees are now ahead of the Red Sox, who got off to a strong and surprising start. Yeah. And yes, have flagged slightly. And then their pitching fell all the way apart. Yeah. I mean, the pitching was never good. Ben, it's worse now.

Yes. Yeah. I went on a Red Sox podcast last week to talk about it. They were like, can we, where do we, are there pitchers somewhere? Are there pitchers? Can we have some pitchers? Yeah. I didn't have any great answers for them.

I suggested that they trade for Rich Hill again because that's their trademark move. But I really like, you look at that division and, you know, as historic a start as the Rays are off to, they're not ahead of their rivals by that much.

And they're quite hurt now. And they're not ahead of their rivals by that much. And they're quite hurt now. And they're quite hurt. So for a team that has seemed so dominant and has been dominant, like kind of looking vulnerable, you know, like they're only four and a half ahead of the Orioles. They're six and a half ahead of the Blue Jays. They're seven and a half ahead of the Yankees. And they have basically an entire starting rotation on the I.L. at this point.

And like for serious reasons, I mean, hopefully you get Tyler Glasnow back sometime soon. But they started the season with Shane Baas on the I.L. and then Jeffrey Springs has Tommy John. And then the most recent victim is Drew Rasmussen, who also has the feared flexor tendon. So all sorts of injury issues. The bullpen has been bad, right? I mean, I think by some metrics, I think Joe Sheehan cited like XFIP, you know, which is sort of a smaller sample with a bullpen. But by that, they were better than only the Oakland A's.

And they're signing Zach Littell and Jake Diekman. They're like, anyone who's available, please, someone pitch for us. So we talk about the vaunted Rays' bullpen, and I guess they're getting Pete Fairbanks back. He's just back now. Yeah, he just came off the Android list. Really shorthanded and just reaching for anyone available.

So they've looked dominant. They've looked unstoppable. But I guess that's one reason why you kind of pump the brakes a little bit on teams that start so hot. Not that they've slowed down so much. I mean, they've kind of cooled off because you'd have to. They were winning every game. But they've continued to win most of the time. But the gap has been narrowed and they don't look quite so imposing when you look at the roster and you have to count on the offense, which is like on pace to hit the most home runs of any team ever. in that offense has gotten better all of a sudden. So you kind of have to hope that those guys who were playing above their past performance continue to, which isn't hard to believe in some cases,

but you need them to fire on all cylinders because the pitching staff is so depleted. So yeah, you look at that team and it's like, are they going to hold on? You know, they have a 738 winning percentage right now, and yet you have some concerns just because of the losses and because the rest of the division is so strong yeah and you know jake digman hasn't pitched again so we don't even get to give a update ben no i went to look and i was like surely he's thrown you know since no it doesn't appear to have still at four

three one um yeah yeah it it's not not as if all of the parts of their roster that have been so good are going to suddenly become bad. We might expect them to cool a little bit. You don't really think they're going to hit the most home runs. I mean, maybe they will. They have Yandy Diaz, so who am I to doubt them? And they are, like you said, going to get Glass now back. They're, you know, I think Taj Bradley's going to start for them against the Mets tomorrow.

So they do have some, like, reinforcements. But it is, it is a lot of very good pitching on the injured list in a way that is not likely to come back. And we have to hope that things are not as dire as they seem for Rasmussen. Because this would be his third Tommy John. And that's not a, that's not a list that you really really want to be on that's a bad that's a bad list but yeah they are they are surprisingly vulnerable for a team that has just you know both in terms of the results that we have seen on the fields and then all of the peripheral statistics been so good so they're vulnerable but some of the the other teams in their division, while also quite good,

they have their warts, Ben. They have some warts. So I don't know. And then what does the peaking do? How does the peaking disrupt that division from top to bottom potentially? Peaking gate. Yeah, right. Peaking gate. Yeah, right. Peaking gate.

No, no. Yeah, there are two other teams I've been thinking about. I guess maybe we missed our chance to have the, hey, the Red Sox, are they actually a good conversation? Sometimes, you know, a team gets off to a hot start and we don't talk about it. Because you want to wait and see if it's real. Yeah, or we just don't get around to it.

And it's like, should we talk about this? And then by the time we get around to it, it's like, maybe we don't even have to talk about this anymore because it's not a story. It's like, who knows? Maybe the Red Sox will remain relevant. But they are now in last place. And they were sort of expected to be or at least quite commonly forecasted to be. But I've been looking at two other teams who have almost the same record to this point.

The Padres at 20 and 22 and the Cubs at 19 and 22. And those two teams, different levels of expectation, right? The Padres entered this year as the favorites, right? If, you know, by projections at least and other people kind of questioning, are they going to unseat the Dodgers this year as the favorites, right? If, you know, by projections at least and other people kind of questioning, are they going to unseat the Dodgers this year?

And then the Cubs were active over the offseason, but it was still like, eh, did they do enough? Well, I'm still waiting for the Padres to play well. Yeah. Right. And part of it is that they've hit really poorly with runners in scoring position. So that's been part of it.

It's just the timing has been bad. But also, like, their base runs record is their actual record. So I don't know how much they've overperformed. Whereas you look at the Cubs, and the Cubs kind of have the opposite of the Marlins phenomenon that we've talked about, which is that the Marlins, you know, start the season 12 and 0 in one run games and just like every coin flip is

landing their way. And so the Marlins are like four games ahead of what they quote unquote deserve based on the underlying metrics and everything. They're 20 and 21. So they actually have a slightly better record than the Cubs, despite having been outscored by 47 runs on the season. Whereas the Cubs have outscored their opponents by 47 runs and they have a worse record than the Marlins do. They are six games beneath their base runs expected record. record. So the Cubs are in third place in the NL Central, four games back of the Brewers,

one game back of the Pirates, who had their hot start and then a slump. If you gave the Cubs their base runs record instead of their actual record, then they'd be in first place in the NL Central. And the Padres, meanwhile, again, they've been outscored by seven runs too. So the Cubs have actually played quite well, surprisingly well, if you look at just run differential and these other metrics. And they haven't been talked about a whole lot just because the record doesn't reflect that. So always drawn to records that seem out of line with how the team is actually playing. And that could be encouraging, I guess, if you're a Cubs fan and you're thinking, well,

the talent will out ultimately and players are playing better and we're outscoring our opponents and eventually that will pay off and we will start beating them too. And again, they're four games back. So that's not a lot of ground to make up. Whereas, you know, the Marlins still six games back in the NL East, but also a respectable record just because they've been buoyed by all of this success. Whereas the Cubs, you know, they're two and eight in one run games. So especially at this point in the season, it can be quite misleading or distorting or confusing. Or at least incomplete, right?

Like it is part of the picture. Or at least incomplete, right? Like it, it, it is part of the picture. And again, like those wins and losses are banked, but it doesn't really tell, tell the full story. If I were a Cubs fan, I would be encouraged if by nothing else you play baseball in the NL Central. And so, you know, you have a, an easier road to hoe. And I don't say that like, you know, theers are playing good baseball, and William Contreras is a good defender now, so who knows what they're capable of. The Pirates have obviously cooled pretty dramatically, but you are in a situation where you will presumably be able to win a division crown with less, but you're also in a very competitive National League, and so better win the division because those wildcard spots are likely to be claimed by other entrants, like the Arizona Diamondbacks, Ben.

Yeah, between the Dodgers and the Padres are the Diamondbacks. Diamondbacks, yeah. It's not a two-team race. It's a three-team race. It's a three-team something, you know? It's not a two-team race. It's a three-team race. It's a three-team something, you know? Yeah.

So we've got to do some past blasting here. I did just want to shout out Riley Pint making the majors. That was kind of a cool one, right? And maybe we'll get around to a major leaguer sometime soon because I enjoy another former first-rounder like Brent Rooker who went through a bunch of different directions and retired and unretired and then finally get called up. I mean, he was a bigger prospect than Brent Rooker. He was like top prospect. He was a top prospect. He was a fourth overall pick.

And now he's a Colorado Rocky and still with the Rockies who drafted him and sort of stuck with him. So that's fun. I don't know how long he'll be there or how well he'll pitch, but nice to see him make it after deciding to come back. So that's a whole blast from the past, I guess, but also from the present. And have you gotten the old game day notifications? Are you someone who's getting those? I am not getting the old game day notifications. I'm not either.

I don't actually get any game day notifications. I've turned them off. I try to minimize notifications as much as possible because I have so many. So many. I can't avoid. Yeah. I get Slack ones and I get Discord ones and I get Gmail ones and just, and I want to see those and need to see at least some of those. And so I try to minimize the others that I don't necessarily need to see.

So I don't have game day notifications on. But a lot of people seemingly who have had them have been getting little pass blasts. Yeah. Just beamed to their phone notifications about decades-old games. Play-by-play as if it's happening right now. And I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it. I don't know why it's happening, whether they were just updating something on the back end.

I know they've, I think, done promotions about this for beat-the-streak sort of stuff. I don't know, maybe like DiM promotions about this for like beat the streak sort of stuff. Like, I don't know, maybe like DiMaggio hit streak updates or something. This just seems to be sort of random. Like it's games that don't have play-by-play data or public play-by-play data, it seems like in some cases. But I don't know if there's something that's tying them together. But it seems like kind of fun. Yeah.

I almost wish I were getting them. Or maybe that should be a feature that you could opt into. Like give me notifications from past seasons as if they were happening right now. That might be kind of a fun option. A lot of them that I have seen have involved the Astros, I've noticed. But I don't know. I haven't made a study of it. You know, I've only seen a couple of screenshots. So I don't know if my sense of that is just out of whack. Yeah, I'm not sure either. So that was one past blasty thing that happened. Another

past blasty thing, I watched two documentaries, just new baseball documentaries when I was not playing Tears of the kingdom over the past several days which i was at almost all times but i i watched these two yankees documentaries so documentaries about yankees cultural icons reggie jackson and yogi bara so one of them is just called reggie and it came out earlier this year. It's streamable on Amazon Prime Video. And then the other is called It Ain't Over. And it's about Yogi Berra, obviously. And I think it premiered last year, but it just hit theaters this past weekend. So you can go see it at least in some limited places. And I thought that would be kind of a fun, like, double feature that I just did for fun and just wanted to give a very quick shout out to those.

Just because, you know, like, there aren't that many new baseball movies, but there's no shortage of baseball documentaries, it seems like. They're constantly baseball documentaries. So we watched and talked about the Willie Mays one. This one, you know, these two, I think they were interesting. They were good for Yankees fans, certainly. Interesting ties between those two players who overlapped in some ways and obviously are both, you know, Yankees greats and legends and other teams too but i think they were linked in the sense that they were known for october success and world series success and also in that they were kind of like larger than life and larger than baseball characters and so there were a lot of commonalities like these

documentaries showing these two players in pop culture and as pitch men, etc. But kind of a different vibe to them, I guess, in that the Yogi one was like a lot of family involvement, you know, like Bera's executive producing, etc., which, you know, isn't necessarily a good or bad thing, but it was more of a hagiography, I guess. Not that there's like, you know, dirty laundry about Yogi Berra that should be aired. I mean, he seems like a pretty uncontroversial, beloved figure. But it was very much like, you know, isn't Yogi so great? And he was great. But it was just a lot of here's why Yogi's so great.

Here's another way that Yogi's so great. But I guess every documentary has to have some reason for being right, like some some message, some takeaway that it has some point that it's trying to make other than just like, remember this guy. Right. Which, you know, just like remember this guy can be, I guess, a good enough reason to spend an hour and a half reminiscing. Yogi documentary's point or message seemed to be Yogi's underrated as a player because he's overshadowed by what a character he was. Oh. Yeah. So the whole thing is framed like it begins and ends basically with – Like justice for Yogi. Yeah.

It was weirdly almost like a chip on the shoulder. That's strange. Yeah. It was a little bit. Because I don't know. I definitely don't think of Yogi as being slighted as a player. I think people are pretty clear-eyed about him as a player. Yeah.

And it starts with this flashback to, which I had even forgotten that this happened. But in 2015 at the All-Star Game, MLB had like a greatest living players sort of event and celebration. And so there were four players. It was Willie Mays and Henry Aaron and Sandy Koufax and Johnny Bench. And they were, I think, like appointed by various committees and historians and so forth. And they chose those four players. And that was a few months before Yogi Berra passed away. So he was still alive at the time and I guess was, you know, slightly slighted by not being included there. So the whole documentary sort of framed around like, where was Yogi? Why wasn't Yogi included there? And I mean, yeah, I guess like he could have had a case to be there, but no one would have been upset if Yogi Berra was there.

I mean, I think you could make a stronger case just on a pure performance level for those four guys, whether it was peak or career. But Yogi was great. I mean, they weren't saying like Yogi should have been there instead of those four guys. It's just like, why wasn't it five guys instead? Why not Yogi also? Which, sure. Yeah. Sure.

Why not? But yeah, I don't find that people think, you know, because of like the caricature, the image of Yogi and the Yogi-isms and all of that and Yogi Bear and that stuff that like Yogi played into and embraced like, you know, as a spokesperson. Yeah. And, a spokesperson and wrote books about his sayings and everything. So even if he felt like there was too much of that at times, he obviously embraced it and profited from it and perpetuated it to a certain extent. thought he was any less great of a player because of all that other stuff. Maybe in the mainstream, if people just know him because of his image and his appearance and his sayings, they might not know that he was also like an all-time great player. That's possible, I guess. But then most mainstream people might not know any baseball player for any reason, right? Even if they were really great at baseball. Like some kind of larger cultural significance probably has to play into it. And he played in an era, obviously, where baseball players were bigger mainstream national celebrities.

So he was known because of that. But, yeah, the whole thing was kind of like don't sleep on Yogi being a great player. I was like, wait, we were – I assure you, we were not doing that. Rest easy. We were. Yeah. But sure, you know, no problem with that. Yeah. He was a D-Day and like, I mean, just a lot of things to celebrate about

Yogi. So nothing wrong with that. And they trotted out so many luminaries in this documentary to talk about Yogi. I mean, it wasn't just like Jeter and Mattingly and Mariano and other Yankees greats as, you know, like Bob Costas is there and Billy Crystal's there and Joe Torre and Whitey Herzog and Joe Madden and Willie Randolph and Claire Smith and Joe Joy, just like on and on media people, sports people, everyone being like,

yeah, Yogi was the best. It's like, all right. Yeah. The best talking head was Nick Swisher. I don't know. I don't know why Nick Swisher was in it. Why was Nick Swisher in it? I don't know. That's so funny. It was the best. You would have these people talking in these measured stentorian tones and the ultra polished

broadcaster voice of the game type. And then Nick Swisher comes in and he's like talking about how Yogi struck out 12 times one season. And Nick Swisher is like, 12 strikeouts, bro. That's unbelievable, bro. It's like, why is Nick Swisher here? 12 strikeouts, bro? I don't even think I'd do that in wiffle ball. Like, you know what I mean? 117 double headers he caught. That's unbelievable. That is, that's unfathomable today. Being Yogi Berra behind the dish. I'm feeling pretty good about my chances, right? Nick Swisher should be in every documentary, just like bringing that, that Swisherian energy. Swisherian. Oh my goodness, Ben. Delightful. It was great. I don't know why he was there other than just like, why not have that Nick Swisher energy?

But yeah, so then, so the Reggie doc was not made like, I mean, with his participation, obviously, but not by him. And so it was maybe a little like presenting more sides and maybe he just had more sides to present. But I guess the upshot of the Reggie doc was not so much about like he was a great player too, but more about like his personality and portrayal and the way he was perceived and presented and presented himself. And I don't know if it was doing like image rehab, but just kind of like looking at the complexity of like Reggie as a public figure, basically. And I don't know if it was doing like image rehab, but just kind of like looking at the complexity of like Reggie as a public figure, basically.

And I should say one of the bittersweet things about these documentaries and really like a lot of these sorts of documentaries, true about the Willie Mays one we talked about too. But, you know, when you're talking about these older figures and, you know, in the Reggie doc, of course, you have a lot of Reggie. Whereas in the Yogi doc, sadly, you don't have Yogi. You have archival footage of Yogi and friends and family of Yogi. Gosh, every family member of Yogi was in that movie. But you have a lot of people who are speaking who also are no longer with us, you know, so it's like maybe their last interviews or their last appearances. Like in the Yogi doc, you had Vin Scully, who was in that Willie Mays doc too, I think. This was maybe like his last interview. You had Roger Angel in it also.

You had Bobby Brown and Ralph Terry and Hector Lopez, the late players. All of them have died since this documentary. And then in the reggie doc you had henry aaron you had vita blue who just died last week so that's kind of like the preserving history aspect yeah get get these people on record on camera before they can't talk about this stuff too so yeah so that was kind of nice also sort of sad to see like yeah and roger angel and and miss them again. Yeah.

But I think the Reggie doc, it was kind of like, you know, putting him in the context of the time and talking about the racism he faced and the prejudice and everything coming up. But also like kind of juxtaposing him with these figures who were more outspoken in sort of like a social justice race relations way. outspoken in sort of like a social justice race relations way. You know, it was a lot of like Muhammad Ali and Kurt Flood and Bill Russell and then like intercut with Reggie also being outspoken, but like, you know, fighting Charlie Finley for more money and that kind of thing, as opposed to like advocating for conditions for people on the whole. You know, it was like Jackie Robinson talking about how there should be black managers and more people involved in leadership positions and then kind of juxtaposing that with Reggie advocating for himself and like advocating for himself in that way was portrayed as being kind of a trailblazing thing, which, you know, it probably was to some extent.

But there was also an aspect of like, he was out for himself, too. You know, like there was even a clip of him saying everyone's out for themselves. And, you know, talking about how like, if you spoke as a black athlete, like you were portrayed as being arrogant or self-centered, but then also acknowledging that he kind of was arrogant, too. So it was kind of complicated, I think. Like, you know, obviously, like it was an uphill battle, but also he made it more difficult for himself in some ways. So that was probably more interesting in that it wasn't pure haciography and wasn't this guy great. It was like looking at sort of this complicated figure.

figure. Although, you know, like in the end, both of these guys like had breaks with the Yankees at some point because Yogi had a feud with George Steinbrenner about the way that Yogi was fired as manager. And then eventually they had a reconciliation and Reggie was kind of like driven off by the Yankees or left because like he wanted to be involved in ownership and leadership and was kind of barred from doing that yeah yeah and you know he tried to like be part of the group that was buying the dodgers and then that didn't work out so it kind of ends with reggie now being with the astros and he's like a he's like a special assistant there except like you know he, he's talking now and speaking out about minorities in front office and ownership and everything. And the guy that he's like paired with is Jim Crane

in Houston. And it was very much like, you know, Jim Crane is the partner that I've wanted. And like, he's listening to me and everything. And it's like, Jim Crane's diversity record is not the best. The subject of repeated litigation, in fact. Yes, yes, indeed. In lawsuits against his pre-Astros company and shipping and logistics and everything. So that was kind of like, is Jim Crane using this guy for image rehab? Or is he sincere? And it was like, Reggie's getting heard now, but it's by Jim Crane. Like that doesn't seem like the best person to work with on this. Anyway, I watched those. Although a person deeply in need of that message in all likelihood. That is true too. Yeah. So I guess he needs to hear it. So that's something, but just kind of

tossing out a qualified recommendation for those if you're in the market for baseball documentaries or you're a Yankees person who wants to reminisce about Yankee stuff. Or if you don't know that Yogi Berra was a good baseball player and you need to be told about that. If you need to join the Justice for Yogi Berra movement as if we're confused on that score. Right, yeah. Sometimes it is funny when you watch things and you're like, I'm confused by the vibe you're bringing to this project. Yeah, right. You know, like, I'm a little confused.

But it sounds like, in general, it was good. But yeah, sometimes you're like, we're not, oh, you're fine. It's okay. We're not confused. We got that. We got it. You were very great. Yeah.

Yeah, all the stuff about, like, him saying these sayings and in the movie they have him like, you know, there's a Confucius quote and then there's a Yogi quote. They talk about how some of those quotes are kind of ascribed to him, but he didn't really say them and maybe they were manufactured for him to say or someone else said it and attributed it to him. But all that stuff, like him being a larger than just on the field figure is largely a compliment. Like he was really liked and endures, you know, his memory will be more enduring because of all that stuff than because of the fact that he was a good hitter and he didn't strike out a lot, right? Like that stuff's all true and we shouldn't forget about that. But also if you want to live on, to live on, be a pitchman and be in Aflac ads and have a candy bar named after you in Reggie's case, that stuff probably goes a long way towards your legacy living on more so than there are a lot of great baseball players who never really transcended being great baseball players and thus they're kind of forgotten right and maybe they're in need of documentaries because people don't know that they were great players but also there isn't really an audience for that because no one knows who they were so so yeah but you know if you think oh Yogi Berra he was just that fun colorful guy who would say these sort of inscrutable things that also made a sort of sense. If you didn't know that he was also a catcher of great repute and won a lot of World Series and

hit well, then, well, now you do. Or you can if you watch It Ain't Over. Anyway, they were both a fairly good time. So, the past blast from 2007 comes to us, as always, from David Lewis, who is an architectural historian and baseball researcher based in Boston. And he writes, the chase for a historic home run ball. In 2007, home run milestones were in the air. Not only did Barry Bunn spend the summer chasing Henry Aaron's all-time home run record, but Alex Rodriguez hit his 500th homer. Adding to the excitement, one of baseball's unique traits meant that when the historic homer was hit, one lucky fan would be able to take a piece of history home with them. As reported in an August 12, 2006 AP article, as the milestones crept closer, fans and memorabilia seekers across the country strategized how they could improve their chances at catching the big one. Zach Hample, described in the article as a ball-collecting savant, gave casual fans some pointers in an interview with the AP.

Hample's first suggestion was to always bring a glove with you to the game. He also suggested attending batting practice to learn how the balls bounce and studying where specific players hit home runs most frequently. I guess he did not recommend shoving children out of the way in order to catch the ball. Did you see he got banned from a ballpark? Yeah, I saw it. This is very timely. I think not the first ballpark he has been banned for. But yeah, he got banned from a minor league park, the high-A affiliate of the Rockies, which I don't know that he has been there or has any plans to be there.

He was not there recently as far as I know, but they just decided preemptively that they don't want him around. I think they're not the first to do that because the most recent incident with Hample is that he was at an Orioles game, I guess the Orioles game where Shohei Otani almost cycled. And Cedric Mullins had met with a fan and a streamer, an MLB The Show streamer. And then Mullins hit a home run and Zach Hample caught it. And people were suggesting, requesting that Hample give the ball to this guy. And he refused and said, no, I'm the Mullins guy tonight.

So continuing not to endear himself to fans in general. But he did not catch Barry Bonds' record-setting home run. He just provided some tips. And in the end, David continues, it proved better to be lucky than well-prepared. some tips. And in the end, David continues, it proved better to be lucky than well-prepared. Bonds' record-setting 756th home run ended up in the possession of 21-year-old Matt Murphy after taking a ricochet off the stands and heading directly toward his seat in the middle of the row. Murphy, who emerged from a pile with a torn shirt and bloodied face in addition to the ball, ended up all right. He sold the ball at auction shortly thereafter for over

750 000 which i guess was worth being in the pile and having a cut but that ball i think had an interesting afterlife because it was bought by mark echo the fashion designer and then he like laser etched an asterisk into it do you remember no yeah because i think after he bought it he held a contest like an online fan voting thing to determine what to do with the ball and the choices were put an asterisk on it leave it alone or shoot it to the moon. I don't know how they plan to shoot it to the moon. Shoot it to the moon? Yeah. So ambitious. Asterisk one, and I think he emblazoned an asterisk onto the ball, laser cut into the

ball above the Major League logo by a master engraver and then there was a controversy about whether the hall of fame would still want it and it said that it would even though it was defaced in that way and then there was kind of a controversy about whether he would hand it over or not and ultimately he did i think so the hall said they still wanted it. And I don't know whether it's been on display or whether it's just part of the collection there in the archives. But as far as I know, the Hall has it. I wonder whether it's depreciated since that purchase. I think Barry Bonds' final home run, 762, I think that that has sold multiple times since then. In the most recent time, it actually sold for less.

So I think it has depreciated, which I guess makes some sense given just the legacy of Barry Bonds, just in general, perhaps. But yeah, I don't know if that has proven to be the best investment, but someone made bank on it at the time Matt Murphy did. And I guess it's in the Hall of Fame's collection with its asterisk to this day.

Yeah, that's wild. I'd like to watch a Barry Bonds documentary someday. Now, that would be interesting. If he were frank and open, we should do like a who would be the best baseball documentary subjects were actually like a clear eyed look, you know, because like I read that A-Rod is working on one or wants to do one, maybe inspired than a Jeter one, just because A-Rod, you know, like a little bit more of a complicated figure in a lot of ways. And if he would be frank and open up about things, which Derek Jeter historically has been hesitant to do, I'd watch like a no-holds-barred, like open book A-Rod interview. But I don't know whether we would get one of those, at least with his participation. Yeah, it's such a tricky thing. I think we've had a couple of examples in the last couple of years of like, wow, you get this incredible access and there is something to that.

You do get an insight that you might otherwise lack, but there are obviously some pretty intense editorial concerns that come with that. And I think, you know, there are plenty of documentarians who are capable of balancing those concerns. So, you know, we've gotten some good work, but there are times where you're like, hey, why didn't you get asked about that? Is it because you agreed to say, like, they agreed to not ask you, you know? So. Yeah, right. Like when Barry Bonds was in the William Hayes doc and talking about – and, you know, Mayes was talking about Barry, right, and vice versa. And, you know, they skirted the steroid issue with those two guys, right, which is not shocking. But also, like, if Barry Bonds ever really wanted to open up about that someday, I would be interested in hearing from him. I would too interested in hearing from him. I would too. And sometimes a subject will go into one of those with the intent to sort of

obfuscate and deceive. And even in the method by which they do that, they end up revealing something. Like, I wouldn't be surprised. I don't know the man. I don't know the man i don't know the man but i i would put good money on a rod being someone who is unintentionally fascinating about himself even in moments when he does not want to disclose um because that just seems consistent with how he has talked about himself i'm like wow that's you didn't mean to tell me what you just did maybe, but you did. So that's interesting. So sometimes it's fun to watch them, fun is probably the wrong word, but revealing, right? To watch them.

It can be revealing even if they don't intend to reveal anything. Well, after we finished recording, the Blue Jays-Yankees shenanigans continued. Blue Jays started jawing at the Yankees about their third base coach being outside of the coach's box. Later in the game, Aaron Boone yelled at the Blue Jays about their third base coach being outside of the box. But also, Domingo Herman was not only inspected this time for sticky stuff, but also ejected. So it does seem that there may have been some sort of actual cheating going on. Ultimately, though, Aaron Judge, as far as I know, non-suspiciously hit a home run that won the game for the Yankees. So that's one way to not necessarily quiet the suspicion, but certainly answer it. This might quiet the suspicion, however, after that game, Ken Rosenthal reported, after speaking to Blue Jays pitcher Jay Jackson, who was the one pitching to Judge, that Jackson acknowledged that he was tipping. Quoting here, before Jackson came to a set position, he brought his hands up near his ear as he gripped the ball. The grip indicating which type of pitch he was about to throw was visible to Yankees first

base coach Travis Chapman, according to multiple Jay's sources. Jackson, in a telephone interview Tuesday night, acknowledged he was tipping his slider, but said the timing of his delivery was more of an issue than his grip. Jackson said it was the time it was taking me from my set position, from my glove coming from my head to my hip. On fastballs, I was kind of doing it quicker than on sliders. They were kind of picking up on it. So there you have it, Rosenthal continues. Judge was not stealing signs illegally. He seemingly was looking at Chapman, who could have relayed Jackson's tell through hand signals, perfectly permissible behavior under Major League Baseball rules. So as we discussed, some suspicion is inevitable and perhaps understandable or even desirable in a post-banging scheme world. But much of the time, players pick up on things without resorting to cameras and trash cans.

Also, some of you wrote in about this. I didn't want to get back on my soapbox about live in-game player interviews on the field. But on Sunday, which was Mother's Day, Tristan Casas was mic'd up on ESPN while playing first base for the Red Sox. And ESPN's Carl Ravitch said, I know your mom passed away when you were young. What does Mother's Day mean to you and your brother? Which is a heck of a question to ask someone at any time, let alone while playing first base in a Major League Baseball game.

And Casas had a nice answer. He talked about the many mother figures in his life, whether they shared his name or not. But come on, what are we doing here? There's a baseball game going on. Let the kids play, as they say. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay almost ad-free, and get themselves access to some perks. Brendan Linfer, Sean Maland, Casey Shankland, Derek Ma, and Adam Crow. Thanks to all of you.

Patrons get access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only. They also get access to monthly bonus episodes, plus playoff livestreams and discounts on merch and ad free Fangraphs memberships and so, so much more. Check out Patreon.com slash Effectively Wild. If you are a patron, you can message us through the Patreon site. All others can email us at podcast at Fangraphs.com. You can also rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild. You can follow effectively wild on Twitter at EW pod, and you can find the effectively wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild. Thanks to Shane

McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We'll be back with another episode soon. Talk to you a little later this week. Where do you go in a world of bad takes for the good takes on baseball and life with a balance Losing Effectively wild Effectively wild Effectively wild