Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2011: Who Was That Mascot Man?

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the major leagues’ sudden influx of 24-year-old right-handed pitchers with the surname “Miller,” the Rays’ surprisingly precarious position in the AL East (7:48), and the Cubs, the Brewers, and the state of the NL Central (12:45), before focusing their bat-resuscitating powers on Trea Turner (17:22), with almost immediate […]

Chris Davis 247 tattoos are the new mnemonics. Scott Boris nautical analogies are tragedies. Keep them honest. Vroom vroom. Here's your primer. I'm Beef Boys, Baseball's End, Roger Angel, and Super Pretzels. Williams asked to deal, and Mike Trout hypotheticals. Waiting for the perfect bat from a volcanic eruption. Ladies and gentlemen, the Effectively Wild introduction. Hello and welcome to episode 2011 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Riley of Fangraphs, and I am joined as always by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you?

I need you to help me out here. So, April 19th, a 24-year-old right-handed pitcher named Mason Miller debuted for the Oakland A's. He was ranked 98th on the Fangraphs preseason prospects list. On May 2nd, a 24-year-old right hander named Bryce Miller debuted for the Mariners. He, I believe, was ranked

83rd on the Fangraphs preseason prospect list. Right around there. Sounds about right. Okay. Then, Fangraph's preseason prospect list right around there? Somewhere around there, yeah. Yeah. Sounds about right. Okay. And then May 23rd, a 24-year-old right-hander named Bobby Miller debuted for the Los Angeles Dodgers. He was ranked 33rd on the Fangraph's preseason prospect list. Are there more Millers to come? preseason prospect list. Are there more Millers to come? Have we exhausted the supply of 24-year-old right-handed pitching prospects named Miller? It's too many Millers. They're all on West Coast

teams. You can't spring so many Millers on me in the span of a month and expect me to be able to keep them straight. Well, I have bad news, Ben, which is that according to the 2010 census, Miller was the seventh most common surname in the United States. So, granted, the prevalence of that name might, you know, change over time. Almost certainly it would change over time because, you know, the country shifts. Yes. And, you know, we have different folks coming in with different names. Yeah. I mean, same with different folks coming in with different names. Yeah. I mean, same with the Effectively Wild podcast.

Sure. Some of them have the surname Miller sometimes. Yeah. But I regret to inform you that while they are not top 100 guys on the board at this very moment. More Millers? We have a Jake Miller, who's a starting pitcher in Cleveland's organization. Is he a 24-year-old right-hander? Yeah.

Now, he is still a couple of years off. He's in high A at the moment, I believe. And I think we have him based on just his— He's a 21-year-old left-hander. Okay. Right. I can keep him straight. You can live with that.

You can live with that, perhaps. He's an A-ball at the moment. You know, his sort of chalk 40-man timeline, I think, puts him on track for us to see him sometime in 2025. Then there's Tyson Miller, prospect with the Brewers. And, you know, he has seen, I believe, some big league action in his career, right? Yes, yes. 27-year-old right-hander. Right. And, in fact, might be back with the big league team right now, maybe, right? Recently recalled, perhaps, perhaps.

And then, Ben, just to continue to gum up the works, we also have an Eric Miller, also a pitcher for the San Francisco Giants. And he has seen time this year at double and triple A. So a guy who might at some point make his way to the big leagues in this very season. So I don't think you're going to get a reprieve. Yeah, it doesn't sound like it. It's a reprieve, you know, it's like, it's like every time there's a new Ben writing about baseball, I'm like, you, you all need to have a conference, you know, amongst yourselves, you need to come together as the collective Ben and determine a better way to differentiate because I don't want to keep calling you and or Ben Clemens other Ben.

That's, you know, that, that denotes that there's a prime Ben and then there's other Ben and you're both important Ben's, you know, depends on the context, but there's just too many Millers. We've almost doubled the total, I think, of Millers in the majors currently just over the past month or so. We're going to need to rename our Meet a Major Leaguer segment to Meet a Major Miller just so I can keep these guys straight. And they're all good pitchers, too. I mean, Mason Miller's hurt now, but Mason and Bobby seem to throw extremely hard. Bryce throws hard by the standards of any other era, but not quite so much by this era, although it has the highest spin of any fastball, it seems. So it gets a ton

of rise and it's unhittable and he throws it a ton. All these Millers are really good. So I got to figure it out. I got to keep the Bryces and the Bobbies and the Masons all clear. And they're all at least on different teams. So that helps. But- Well, and, you know, for a while it was fine because you had a Mason and a Bryce. Those are very different first names, right? Yeah.

But now you have a Bobby and a Bryce. So you have two Bs, you know, we're doubling up on Bs. Although, like you said, you know, different teams, all of them, different teams. But you also have some, you have some overlap in terms of the coast, but also for two of them, the division, right? Yeah. It didn't help that Bryce Miller made his major league debut in a game that Mason Miller was starting. I guess Mason Miller, yeah.

Yeah. So, it's a troubling time, you know, it's a challenging time. I continue to be amazed that they don't have a system similar to, like, the Screen Actors Guild, where once there's someone with that name in the union, there needs to be differentiation. And is that fair? I mean, I don't know. But on the other hand, would you want to be the other Julio Rodriguez? Like, really? I mean, I think that you'd want a middle initial in there or something. Yeah. No, there needs to be some sort of solution. I know that I think in the LPGA, they have done with some women golfers who had the same name. They added numbers to the end of the name.

They added numbers? Yes end of the name. They added numbers? Yes. I'm sorry. I'm not, I reject that as a solution. That seems, that seems like weird. Well, we need something because the millers are multiplying. Yeah, it's like the trouble with troubles. Troubles?

Troubles? Troubles? Troubles. Troubles. Yes. Troubles. All right. I'm going to keep saying Tribbles.

I have just a couple things to point out before we get to a fun interview that's going to take up most of this episode. We are talking to David Raymond, the maestro of mascots, just the source. I mean, we have talked about mascots a lot lately. They keep coming up. We get listener emails about them. And we are not experts. We're enthusiasts. But we have now gone to the expert.

We do have strong opinions, but they are not expert opinions. Right. So we are talking to an expert, the expert, David Raymond, who was inside the suit for the Philly Fanatic. He was the original Fanatic performer slash best friend, as they are called. And he has had a hand in designing Gritty. And he consults for many teams. And he started the Mascot Hall of Fame. And he trains potential mascot performers.

And we will get into all of that, both the high-level mascot insights that he has, but also the ground-level inside-the-suit experiences that he has, but also the ground level inside the suit experiences that he can share. So just want to point out, the Rays lost the game 20 to 1. Yeah, they sure did. You know, I, yeah, 20 to 1, Ben. That'll take a chunk out of that run differential, right? Yeah, how about that? I mean, at this point, you got to look at them and be concerned about the division, right?

Not about the playoffs, but about the division. And not because of this one game. Ten of those runs were allowed by position player pitchers. There were multiple position player pitchers. It got out of hand. But overall, though, they have kind of cooled off. I mean, they're 35 and 15, so they have not continued the torrid pace. Meanwhile, the Orioles have been great.

The Yankees have righted the ship and have been hot lately. Again, every team in the AL East, as we speak, is 26 and 23 at worst. So the Rays now have a three-game lead in the division on the Orioles. You know, it's like because the AL East is so strong, even with the incredible start and the wins that they banked, they haven't really opened up a lead. And as we've discussed, they're vulnerable. I mean, they're getting guys back.

They'll get Glasnow back, but they have lost a lot of pitchers to long-term injuries. And gosh, if anyone who has been playing above his head and over his skis and whatever expression we want to use doesn't keep that up, they have not built up a buffer. You would think that a team that is 35 and 15 would have built up a bit of a buffer, and they really have not. So it's going to be kind of a tooth and nail fight the rest of the way in that division, even though it seemed early on that the Rays had sort of staked their claim. Yeah. I mean, I think we're right to say like, those wins are banked, you know, and if there are wins against like lesser competition,

it all counts the same. And that's all true. But like, they should have maybe thought about even winning more. Like they should have. Did you consider winning more of the games? Consider winning more. You know how you've already won, like, much? Maybe win more. I don't think that them cooling now really says a whole lot other than, like, they are kind of injured and the rest of their division is good and, like, they're playing better teams now. But also, it's tighter than it should be it's sort of you think right and i think that the people actually ben i have a i

have a mild take i don't think that this is particularly controversial it's just common sense really i think that the um the teams that should be the the most stressed about the situation in the east isn't even any of the teams in the East. I think it's all the other sort of okay teams in the American league, right? Like I, again,

that's obvious, you know, sometimes, but sometimes you have to say the obvious thing. And I think that if, if you're a team in the American league, the threat level set midnight, you know,

like if you're the, if you're the Astros or the angels or the Mariners or really not, that's the list because the Central is pretty bad. But, you know, if you're one of the three teams sort of stacked close behind in the West, you have to be really one annoyed that the Rangers are working. I bet you're like, you were all supposed to break, not just DeGrom, all of you. You were all kind of tenuously held together by tape and spit. But no, they're good. We should probably talk about Evaldi at some point because that is looking like quite the good little signing that the Rangers pulled off there. My goodness. He has been the major leagues and innings pitched. Yes. Yeah. He has been just, and like, they've been good innings, you know?

Yeah. So that helps it when they're good, when they're good innings and you're like, Hey, oh, DeGrom is true. You need good innings. And so then they've been getting those. But yeah, if I were one of those other teams, I'd be oh crap because i mean it's possible that all the wild cards will just come from the east like is that whole division yeah it could happen right yeah so just it goes to show the early season storylines and hot streaks and slums it's not to say that the rays have have suddenly tanked or something. It's just that they didn't actually separate themselves by enough that that necessarily meant that they could just cruise to that division title. To be clear, only Atlanta has higher playoff odds

than the Rays do. So they're not in danger of missing the postseason or anything. I'm just saying you would have thought, given how great they started, that, okay, they could just claim this division victory now. And nope, not in this division, how great they started, that, OK, they could just claim this division victory now. And nope, not in this division, in any other division, perhaps, but not this one. So speaking of the run differential, I was going to bring that up because, yeah, the Rays still on top by quite a lot. Even after that negative 19 performance, they're plus 104. The Rangers are second at plus 79, not even that far behind. But then you have the Cubs at plus 52

just ahead of Atlanta. And we talked briefly about the Cubs the other day and how they seem to have been quite unlucky when it comes to outscoring their opponents and yet not having that translate to wins. They are now, I think, two and 10 in one run, and their base runs record is eight games better than their actual record. So they have underperformed by much more than on the other team in that respect. And now they're kind of fun and exciting these days because Mervis is there now and Murrell is back, right? And Murrell hits homers every single day. He's hit homers several games in a row. He has nine homers in 12 games and 52 plate appearances. Hosmer is gone after Hosmering for the start of the season. That was kind of one of those, well, I don't know what we expected sort of situations, right? He was clearly, I think,

a stopgap and a placeholder, and he held the place for a little while. And now he has moved on and has been replaced by some exciting younger players who are perhaps performing better. So this team, it's like you could talk about the Cardinals' terrible start to the season, and we certainly did. They are now 22-28 and only five games back of the Brewers in the Central. The Cubs, by run differential, have been the class of that division, even though they're trailing the Brewers by four and a half games and the Pirates by a game and a half. So I don't know what to make of that sort of situation. But a lot of it was like the standings are all topsy-turvy at the start of the season and the teams we thought were good have been bad

and vice versa. And it's coming back to the pack just a little bit as it typically does. And the Brewers, have you seen the state of the Brewers rotation right now? I'll sum it up with this transaction. They just signed Julio Tehran, who has not pitched in the majors. They must have not the best, yeah. No, he has not pitched in the majors since 2021, and that was only briefly, right? So, to sign Tehran, I mean, that kind of tells you how desperate they are for pitching. And you wouldn't have thought that that would be the case because their rotation is perennially their strength and was expected to be again.

But almost their entire rotation is on the injured list right now. Their injured list is a rotation. Brendan Woodruff is on the IL. Wade Miley, Eric Lauer, Aaron Ashby, all these guys are on the IL. And meanwhile, Corbin Burns, the ace, has not been Burnzing so much. It's kind of concerning. I don't know exactly what's going on with Corbin Burns these days. By Burns standards, he has been quite subpar, not striking out as many guys, allowing lots of dingers, etc., more walks. So that is kind of concerning, too. They're 23rd in starting pitcher war. They're 27th in bullpen war. They're 23rd in WRC+.

So you might wonder, why haven't they been terrible? I think it's two things. One, they have a great defense, maybe the best in baseball so far this season. And two, their pitchers have been bad, but they've had great timing. They've been kind of clutch or lucky, clucky. They have the second highest Fangraphs clutch score of any pitching staff. They have the second highest strand rate or left on base rate of any pitching staff. And they have the best TOPS plus in high leverage situations, meaning that they have allowed a much lower OPS in those high leverage moments than they have overall. So the fact that they're in first after basically

having their entire rotation decimated, more than decimated, I guess that's encouraging in a sense, but also discouraging when your entire rotation is injured and you're resorting to siding Julio Tehran. So that division is wide open, I guess, is what I'm saying. We've talked about the AL Central. I think the caliber of play is a little higher in the NL Central, right? But the separation is not really. There's a six-game separation as we speak between first and last place, the Brewers and the Reds. So we were talking last time about how the Guardians have started slow, but they're not that far back. And you don't even have a Royals in the NL Central, right?

There's no truly terrible team right now. Well, I mean, there's no truly, I guess, Sando team either. But yeah, I don't... Man, the Royals have only won 15 games. Maybe we should be talking about how bad the Royals are more than they are. It's a different flavor of bad than the A's because the Royals are kind of trying. So, yeah. They have the Rays record inverted.

The Royals do. Yeah, they do. How about that? Yeah. Last thing, I want to focus our Effectively wild career resuscitating powers on Trey Turner. I want Trey Turner to be the next guy who's like, hey, look, Trey Turner's not hitting. And then a week later, Trey Turner has been the best hitter in baseball since we mentioned that. I don't know if it works when it's consciously directed like that. Right. I think it has to be legitimate. It has to be like, hey, like this guy hasn't been that good. Like, are we kind of worried about it?

Or we're not talking about him anymore. It's like, oh, hey, we haven't talked about Bryce Harper in a while. Oh, okay. Bryce Harper back to being one of the best players in baseball. Or Aaron Judge. He looks like he's back to being the old merely very good or great Aaron Judge. Oh, okay. Now he's back to superstar

Aaron Judge hitting homers every day. Trey Turner, I'm not actually concerned about, I don't think. So I don't know if I can muster the what's wrong with Trey Turner kind of energy that maybe we need to bring in order to activate our powers and to bring back the old great Trey Turner. But he really has been quite bad. In fact, by his own admission, he has sucked. That is the way that he put it. He said, I've sucked. So part of that is, of course, the expectations of the contract and everything. I don't know whether that's playing into his struggles, but that is why he is taking pains to point out that he has sucked and basically trying to ingratiate himself with fans or, you know, if fans are disappointed by what they've gotten out of Trey Turner thus far, he wants to let them know that he is also disappointed.

But they're in the middle of a game as we're recording and his slash line's down to 248, 293, 376. That's a 78 WRC plus. Yeah. He has only stolen six bases, which is, I guess, roughly the pace he was on last year. So you'd think maybe he would be running more because everyone is, or you could be, but he's not so much. So he was the hero in the WBC. So maybe it's like, hey, I had a good year. You know, everything else is gravy, but probably not. He also wants to perform well with the Phillies, and I guess he's one of the factors behind the Phillies' slow but not super surprising start. They're kind of in the, do we need to fire the manager and have new manager magic happen again stage.

I don't think that you can um you can deploy that card again so fast you know i think that you have to hold it in reserve until you know and until another year or two really probably i i feel bad because it seems as if as evidenced by his quote like he's a self-aware guy. And you don't want to keep talking about it. It's like he knows he's not playing well. But it is a thing that kind of needs to be remarked upon, right? So you're in this uncomfortable period of observation with it.

We're like, oh, good. But it's not going great and i i don't know if it's not going great in a way that i'm like super concerned about like in terms of it portending um a collapse that is um one he can't recover from but jay's writing about it for us and it's like well you gotta write about it it is a thing to write about but also yeah no. And it's not like he's the batted ball quality has been reassuring, right? Because he has, if anything, over

performed that the expected weighted on base is down to 277 going into Wednesday's games and the Wobo was higher than that. So if anything, the ball's been bouncing okay for him. It just, he hasn't been hitting it for him. It's just he hasn't been hitting it very hard.

He's still super fast. Like he has a long track record. I almost feel like it's too easy to focus our powers on Trey Turner because I think of him as one of the best players

in baseball. And it's not like he's had an extremely long period of sort of fading into the background or anything. He was a superstar in the WBC just

this spring. So I imagine that he'll be just fine. But it has been a disconcerting and disappointing start to his Philly's career. Yeah, it hasn't been that bad. All right. So let's take a quick break here and we'll be back to discuss everything about mascots with the authority on mascots, David Raymond. to make you smile. This is Effectively Wild. This is Effectively Wild. This is Effectively Wild. Well, I was going to start this segment by saying that David Raymond has forgotten more about mascots than we'll ever know.

But he remains such a master of mascots that I wouldn't want to presume that he's forgotten anything. What Jane Goodall is to chimps, David Raymond is to mascots, except he hasn't just studied and helped preserve them. He's also designed them. studied, and helped preserve them, he's also designed them. He is the original best friend of the Philly Fanatic, which, and I hope I'm not puncturing any illusions here, means he was inside the suit for the first 16 years. He's the founder of the Mascot Boot Camp and the Mascot Hall of Fame, the author of the book The Power of Fun, a frequent consultant to teams of all kinds on mascot matters, and the visionary behind more than 100 mascots, including Philadelphia Flyers mascot slash internet legend Gritty, whom he helped create.

David, welcome to Effectively Wild. Oh my gosh, I'm aligned with Jane Goodall. Yeah, that's amazing. I made that comp before. No, I'm thrilled. I need the clip, Made that comp before? No, I'm thrilled. I need the clip. And so have people need to read it when I'm introduced? Well, you live among the mascots. You study their habits.

You're an expert on their behavior. I figured it fit, right? And they're an interesting sort of life form that you've helped bring to our attention, I think. So would you describe yourself as Gritty's designer or dad? Or do you think of Gritty and the other mascots you've had a hand in designing as children or pets? Or is it more of a Dr. Frankenstein, Frankenstein's monster situation? Oh, you know, I guess, to be honest, it could be a little tiny bit of each of those. But I, you know, truly from a matter of truth, I feel a piece of all of those. I do feel like they're children to a certain respect. But like children, I'm a collaborator.

As a father, I'm a collaborator. I collaborate with my wife. I collaborate with my kids. And we work together to find solutions. And truly, the fanatic and gritty on kind of two ends of my career, bookends, if you will, hold together a process that in the beginning with the Phillies, it was just done well because of enlightened leadership. And with gritty, it was a deconstructed process that if the client will trust me and follow to all apologies to Sixers fans of which I am but trust the process and that they are the ones that pull the meaningful tissue together that helps create you know this living breathing brand extension that or a character brand. We do like to stay away from mascots or the term. To some, it may seem like just semantics, but for us, it's this discussion of value. And so when you have the

insurance company that's saying, no jingles, no mascots, they're talking about the low end of the continuum. We're trying to build this living, breathing brand extension or character brand, as we said it. And there's nothing wrong with mascots in terms of a title. I embrace it, certainly for SEO. I embrace it. But I do. It's bigger than that. I think it's more important than that.

I feel the work that characters do, both the ones that I've been involved in, and then there's many good ones that I have not, successful characters that I've not, are really making their communities better places. They have this enormous ability to distract from, you know, from their typical struggles in life. And, you know, we need that. So I see them as little links into a big chain that can make the world a better place. So without jumping, you know, when you started it, you said I was like James Goodall. I have to give a level of importance to the business as well. Yeah. Well, when you've consulted with clients, I know you've at least at times called it a mascot intervention. And that's sort of what we have you here today for, to do a mascot intervention for us, because mascots have come up on the podcast so many times.

And what do we know? So we have gone straight to the source and the expert here, not to design a mascot or a character, although I guess maybe we should sidebar about whether Effectively Wild needs to develop its own mascot slash character. But we've just gotten so many questions about it, and you are the authority. And I will start with that big picture question. You know, there was a profile of you that The New York Times did a couple of years ago in New York Times Magazine, and it mentioned in there that the Flyers had been resistant to having a mascot or character, as some organizations still are, and noted that's the stance the Flyers took for decades, anti-mascot, regardless of how much it was

losing them in merchandise revenue and earned media and community outreach. Obviously, they quickly saw the power of that with Gritty, although that, I think, exceeded all expectations or precedents. But how do you quantify the impact of a mascot on economics or morale? If a team is on the fence about whether we should have one, do you present data? Do you have hard numbers that say this mascot is worth X millions of dollars to the team, or is it more of a fan feeling sort of squishy factor? Oh, good, good. Squishy factor.

That's good. I'll use that as the title of our next research environment. No, it's really both. So it depends on who's asking. I mean, if the pushback is coming from the CFO, then I'm going to tell him, listen, in less than 48 hours, Gritty earned $5 billion of media impressions. And that transferred into earned media. And I'm going to get this wrong, but somewhere around hundreds of millions of dollars of earned media. So those can be translated into value. All you have to do is say, well, what does it cost to put an ad? And then you fill in the blank, you extrapolate what it costs to run that ad. And then you see where your story ran, which is above and beyond, in some cases, where ads are even being seen. And there's a tremendous amount of earned media value to that media impressions.

business so you understand that. So financially is absolutely a defining factor, but a much bigger and more valuable one is to tell them, give them the scenario of what if, so usually the, you know, the CMO, the chief marketing officer, what if I could give you something that could go out wherever you wanted it to go out at any particular time, no matter how good or bad the situation may be or difficult in terms of life, the situations you can send your brand out, your brand will immediately make that environment better. It will distract people, entertain them and deliver the best commercial you could ever create. And the people want to snap a picture with your brand. They want to hug your brand and they're going to keep that photograph or that moment in their minds as a time of great joy. What value as a CMO would you give that to? You would be crazy. You can say, yes,

let me do that. How do I do that? Or if you could pick up your environment, put it on a flatbed and drive it around for everybody to see and to actually see what they get to do and where they get to go and what experiences they will have, how important would that be for you? That's truly what a character brand can do. And that is much more valuable than traditional revenue. We like to call it new revenue when we create a program that they haven't created around a mascot or a character brand that's been built. Whether it's a sponsorship or whether it's something that they're doing that helps a current sponsor buy in for more, that would be new revenue. But, you know, the unrecognized revenue is really revenue that can't be calculated in dollars. And, you know, and I guess, you know, I guess we've

heard that in iconic phrases of priceless in other marketing campaigns for other products, banking, et cetera. But truly a moment of joy that people will continue to revisit to remember that makes them emotionally and physically happier when they do that. And if your brand is a part of that, well, then you are going to be a brand that people want to get in touch and to connect with, and then, of course, buy from. Well, in order to construct those moments of joy, right, and realize all that good revenue, I imagine a lot depends on the design process because characters or mascots are such funny things. They have the capacity to delight, but they also have the ability to be just monstrous when they go wrong, right? And I think we can all think of a couple of examples of that.

So can you walk us through what do you advise teams and brands to think about? What are some of the sort of tricks of the trade when they're trying to create a character that is going to have that sort of indelible mark on its fan base? Well, we talk about the elephant in the room right away and remind everybody, especially in today's world, that the immediate response will be negative and sometimes overwhelmingly negative. Specifically, let's say in a city where the fanatic has lived and breathed for 43 years prior to when the Flyers decided to do it. They're skeptical. They're very bright and intelligent fans in terms of play on the field or in their case, the play on the ice. And it's going to be

negative because those people are the loudest and they're going to think like, okay, you're going to trick us and don't look behind the curtain and see the fact that we haven't been successful on the ice or on the diamond or wherever. So we say it's going to be negative. So start there and understand that. But that's okay because a response with passion is a good response. What you don't want is no response because when you have no response, you haven't done anything.

So we say the way to get to be able to answer the questions from the negative response, because they're all going to say, what were you thinking? Why does it look like that? This looks like it's going to eat children. Stephen King would love this. You said it was going to attract children. And we hate. It sucks and on and on and on. Well, that's all well and good if you don't have an answer to that. So have you seen our players? Do you know how tough hockey is? Don't they look like they haven't taken a bath in a while? Many of them don't shave. Some people don't have all their teeth. Do you know how tough

and rough and gritty this sport is? And oh, by the way, did you notice he's black and orange? He was a troll living under the stadium or from the spectrum to the Wells Fargo Center and all the other iterations between. This character got so frustrated with the changes that he just wanted to watch hockey that he started coming out at night and defacing the new elements they were putting in the arena. And he was caught. And then when he was caught, of course, his eyes were big and bulgy and disembodied pupils because he hadn't seen the light of day. He's a troll.

He's been living in the darkness. And then they said, but wait, look, look at him. He is the physical representation of kind of who we are. And he loves and knows every element of our history of the flyers back, you know, back in the seventies when they started. And of course, the two Stanley cups back to back and he's, he's like us. Don't you notice that? Okay. Well, that makes sense, but he still sucks. I hate him. And and but over time, when other people in Philadelphia started to make fun of this crazy idea, the Philadelphia fans kind of rally around themselves and say, wait a second, he's our ugly, not yours. So when the Pittsburgh Penguin was, you know, sent a, you know, a dismissive tweet, you know, okay, laugh out loud, lol. And Gritty shot back, sleep with one eye open tonight, bird. And that was the defining moment.

That was the tipping point. That was the Malcolm Gladwell tipping point. Like, yeah, yeah, he's ours. Shut up. You know, if we don't like him, that's fine. But you just be quiet over there. You take Crosby and go leave us alone. And that turned into then fodder for late night comedy. And then it and it shook off. And I think the height of my understanding that this has gone way beyond all expectations was when I got a call from public radio in Canada wanting to know what my comment was for the flyers. Canada wanting to know what my comment was for the Flyers, and I'm doing air quotes now, allowing an image of Gritty to strangle Trump at an Antifa disruption. And I said, I have no comment. I got nothing to do with that. We created this for Flyers fans. We created this for hockey fans in Philadelphia. And what the Flyers did, I think, brilliantly was they didn't fight people taking

the image. They couldn't. They didn't have enough lawyers to go after people. And the people that they knew doing it who had asked permission, they had some control over it. But the fact was they just wanted to let it go if it went outside their sphere of influence, which was the Flyers, tri-state area, Philadelphia, hockey fans. And if the rest of the world hated him, no problem. You know, he's our guy. And if anybody else decided to have an opinion or a problem with him, we can always answer and just say, this was for kids by kids. It was introduced in front of 300 elementary school kids at the Please Touch Museum. And the Please Touch Museum is the, tries to, and I love

this, I love this mission, to show how important play is. And for everyone, not just kids. And, you know, the play in that day was The Birth of Gritty. And so the process is about authentic storytelling so you can answer the negativity. But you have to believe in it. You have to invest in it. You have to treat it as it's a living, breathing entity. And you can't waver, you know, because through attrition, the grizzled veteran Flyers fans, or you can plug in for your fans how you'd want to describe them, through attrition, they're going to go away. Consistently try to adapt with what's going on in the universe to connect young people to your environment and say look There's more than just hockey going on here This is a good time which is exceptionally valuable because those are the moments of joy You're building and then what they do is when they come into your environment. They have a good time and they're not necessarily so Locked in with the actual sport they start through osmosis

They start to soak it in. And by the time they get to be 12, 13 or 14, they have their favorite player. Not in a sexist realm, but young girls will grow up and see some of these guys playing a particular sport and say, oh, he's cute. You know, I've got a poster of him. And young boys may be thinking about whether they can play. And of course, you can flip this around with, you know, women's sports as well. You have some attraction other than the actual sport itself. You have attraction to the athlete. You have attraction to their skill sets. This, if you

just shoved a five or six year old in there and said, look at this, look how great that is. Look how good they are. Look how good she is. Look, look, look what type of a, a slap shot he has. Kids are going to yawn and say, I want to go home, mom. I want to go home, dad. So you got to suck them in. And then you're going to build a broader base. And in the case of the Flyers, you now have a generation already started that doesn't know the Flyers without gritty. And that was what the Flyers wanted. And because of their brilliance, they succeeded. And I was a collaborator in that effort. And we followed that process and they believed in it. And so much so that I got

nervous when I started to see the design that they were leaning towards, even though I liked it. I was, I went to the boss, Sean Tilder, and I said, you know, this really does look pretty frightening. Are you sure you want to do this? Hey, you told us. And then I'm stuck. We said, you told us that this had to be our story and the imagery had to be ours. And I said, you're right. You're right. And I backed off. And, you know, I'm glad that I didn't, you know, push for what I liked because it's not my story and it's not my character. Were there in-depth discussions about whether Gritty could tweet or should be allowed to communicate in that way? Because, of course, mascots are mute canonically. Of course,

also, they have thoughts and feelings, very strong emotions which they express, but not typically with words. So I wonder whether there was any uncertainty about whether a mascot could communicate that way. Again, again, a great question from the mascot aficionados that you and Meg are, that you've thought really deeply about this. I appreciate that. You know, social media gives an opportunity to give them a voice, to help them define a personality through words. And I think it's great to have a character that is traditionally live and muted when they're live. But you know, like you said, they have feelings. I mean, if you're treating it like it's a living, breathing entity, then it has feelings and it has a perspective.

And if you get somebody that's good with comedy and who really understands who the character is, then you have some brilliance that would come out in words. So when the Flyers did this, they were always thinking that Gritty would have an account. I mean, his first picture is him on skates like, I'm here. And that was the one that started getting slandered very quickly by the trolls and haters. But they, oh, great. Glad you're here. We hate you. So, but there are, that's a collaboration as well. So, one of the things that I am very proud of is the performer that is now the best friend of Gritty is a good friend of mine. I've known him since he went to school and college when he was telling me he wanted to do this. And he's exceptionally talented. And in costume, he's an amazing physical performer, but his social media on some of the characters that you might not know were really good.

And then he hooked up with two young women at the Flyers who were equally as good as he was and they collaborated. And boy, oh boy, I defy anybody to watch Gritty's feed on whatever platform he happens to be on and not continue to watch for a half an hour and go, oh crap, I've got to get back to work. It is so wonderful. Just as Benny the Bulls is. The Fanatic has done a great job. The Fanatic was being very, very coy and felt that he was low on technology. The Galapagos, of course, did not teach, you know, those amazing species about social media. So the Fanatic stayed away from him for a while,

but now the Fanatic has kind of jumped full in because of his buddies being so good and he wanted to communicate with them. And I just, I love it. And as you alluded to, all mascots seem to exist somewhere on a cuteness to creepiness spectrum. And some of them are so unsettling that it swings all the way back around and they become incredibly endearing, even though at first glance you might be somewhat disturbed.

But I wonder whether there's focus grouping that goes on during the design process. Do you show them to children and see if they laugh or cry? Yes. Most of my larger clients, so big corporations, I become a voice in the room. I'm always in the room where it happens, which is exciting. Of course, if you're a Hamilton fan, you know that that's all he wanted to do is be in the room where it happens. And so, fan, you know, that that's all he wanted to do is be in the room where it happens. And so in the, my bigger clients will, will give me a platform to be able to be heard, but I'm, I'm a voice in the room. So focus groups are really important. So the, the only, the only thing that I've tried to have my clients understand if they go that route is number one, they, they need a professional

company. They need to invest in a focus group company that will do it in, absorb the data in the correct way so you don't get misinformed. And then focus groups should not be a decision maker. It should be a lever that is put on the scale to weigh against other things that you believe that you know and that you want this to be. Because focus groups can give you a wide spectrum of input. And you're not talking about thousands of people. You're talking about maybe, maybe 50 people over the course of a day or two where you bring them in and if it's done professionally, they all get the illustrations or the storytelling. They all get it done the same way and they're all asked the same questions in the same order and they gather the data. And I think that's very helpful, but it

should not be a decision maker because if it is, then you're driven by, you know, the whims of folks that come in on a particular day and give you some feedback. It just should be one other thing that you use. And I've seen the ones, my clients that win, in other words, create a character that really is sustainable, lasts a long time and is doing good things in their community and doing good things for their sport, that they pushed aside some of the feedback that they didn't feel was helpful, but the process was worth it. process was worth it. So that's my only warning to clients is don't have people come in and just expect they're going to tell you how they feel. And that means that you're going to have to take care of all of those feelings. In life, you just can't do that. You have to kind of absorb all the people you trust and say, give me this input. And then ultimately you have to make the decision about what's right for you. And generally, those decisions are made when you have input and some collaboration. Those are the ones that then end up being a resistance to the negativity.

I have what is likely a slightly uncomfortable question. It's a thing I have wondered about when it comes to mascots for my entire life observing them. mascots for my entire life observing them, particularly when you look at some of the variations on existing characters that emerge as they try to introduce new and fun variations, right? So you start with Mr. Met. Well, then Mr. Met gets Mrs. Met, right? And you look at her, and she is curvy. And I'm just wondering, and you can tell me if this is too strange of a question, but as teams are talking through sort of the ideal and end product that they're going to put out there, a character that they can sustain. think about the potential desirability of those characters because i imagine that you're trying to dial in a very particular thing when it comes to the ultimate look that the characters occupy and you know you might end up with a couple people who have um uh interesting predilections shall we say so i i i just i have to ask because we have wondered

aloud about this on the podcast before, how cognizant are teams and corporations about, about that concern when it comes to like, you know, Mrs. Met or, um, the, the Reds have a baseball headed gal, uh, in their Rosie in their,y, in their, right, in their, you know, cast of characters. And so I just wonder, like, are they assessing how, for lack of a better word, horny the mascots are? Well, I think, you know, you've just you've tapped into something that has all kinds of moments that come flooding into my brain about about being careful. And and in the world today, oh, my gosh, being careful is is certainly kind of a warning shot against everybody's bow when they do this. But you have to keep remembering that it's that this is where the silly, wacky furriness comes in, that that's really ultimately what it is. The reason why you have a Mr. Met and a Mrs. Met is I just think it's hysterical. And then I want to ask, well, who is Mrs. Met? Is it Mrs. Met? Is it Ms. Met?

I mean, I don't know how it works. And just that thought alone and what you're doing, Meg, is really funny because we're thinking, right? And we're getting you and the rest of us to think about it. And there's a little nudge, nudge, wink, wink, and a laugh and a giggle. And I think that's where some of the adult connection to mascots comes in. And then, of course, we do have a group of folks that really enjoy dressing in furry gear. And we try to distance ourselves from the industry from them a bit because we'd rather not have the tawdry predilections, as you mentioned, kind of leak

into what is really created for kids. But on a serious note, yes, you are, you were thinking about all of these things. You know, we, we don't, we don't want to offend. We, we want to embrace and we want to connect. And so here's the, here is the overriding benefit of all of the little missteps, hiccups, or fears you could have is I'll always show a picture at our mascot interventions. And I'll show a picture of the fanatic. And he'll be in front of a section of Citizens Bank Park that's probably holding, I don't know, a thousand people. And it's a high resolution picture from the fanatic's back as he is, in essence, standing in a nonverbal pose of welcoming. He has his hands over his head open, his palms are semi-faced to the crowd, but also facing the

palms. It's a traditional nonverbal welcoming celebratory pose. And if you zoom in on that high resolution picture, you will see old, young, men, women, heavy, skinny, people who of course are identifying in any way that they're choosing to identify. But there is one constant in most of the whole picture is they're all wearing Phillies garb, except for a rogue Mets or Yankees fans. We just ignore them. And they are part of the family. You know, in the fanatic's mind, they're part of the family. So all of those things, and they're funny, and I get the question, Meg, but mascots in general, the good ones, and there's not tons of good ones. There are a few of really great mascots that are going to be around for hundreds of years after we're gone, and they are in the business of unifying. do it naturally. It's not like one of the things that we've designed them to do. They just do it because in the character's mind, if you're wearing our colors, come on in, give me a hug. Let's take a picture. That's what I love seeing about characters. They're doing bigger things. They're,

they're, they're unifying cities. They're, um, you know, toning down some rhetoric because, you know, they just have a single sole purpose and that's all they see. And all they feel about is that purpose. Um, and they, um, and they do all they see and all they feel about is that purpose. And they do those great things, regardless of the silliness that, you know, we can have, as adults can have fun with it. That's an incredibly generous interpretation of my question. Thank you. That question may have been stimulating in more than one way. Off-air, if you do have a tendency to share an adult beverage, I'll be happy to go deeply into that subject if you want. Okay. Effectively wild after dark, I guess. But some mascots are very anthropomorphic, like Mr. and Mrs. Met, and some are not.

Some are obviously identifiable as a particular animal. are obviously identifiable as a particular animal. And maybe if you're a team that has the name of an animal, then you're going to have a mascot that looks like that animal. But there are many mascots that are kind of unclassifiable, right? They're just they're difficult to describe. Some are genderless or at least of indeterminate gender. Many are of indeterminate species or planet of origin. The Fanatic is a strange looking character, but a bird, right? And others, you can't even say what he, she, they, it are, right? Because Slider, for example, who's a member of the Mascot Hall of Fame, the Guardian's mascot, I don't know that anyone knows what Slider is exactly. I think Slider's creator described Slider as a big fat furball, and maybe that's all you need to know. But when clients come to you, do they usually say,

we want a moose, we want a bull, we want a bear? Or do they just say, say hey show us what you got and we don't even need to know what it is exactly it's a fabulous question but but for the record the fanatic is a flightless bird from the galapagos islands right so uh and and that was created after we recognize and this is you know the phillies just did this so well unknowingly they didn't think of storytelling until people kept asking well you know there was even there was even an Olympic character called What's It? Because they couldn't figure out what it was. So, you know, it is an issue. But I think most of my clients will start, you know, we have this mascot intervention,

right? And they've invested, you know, they're committed, they've invested. I come in and invariably, in many cases, well, what's it going to be, Dave? What's it going to look like? And I say, honestly, what's it going to be, Dave? What's it going to look like? And I say, honestly, I have no idea. And that's when the CFO goes, why did we hire this guy? And I go, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't know, but you actually do. You just haven't been asked the right questions. And that's what the intervention is about. And so if they're saying we want,

we're thinking, and I go, great, let's put a pin in that because that's third or fourth in our list of priorities. The first one is to understand the difference between a mascot and a character brand. And we have a little bit of a presentation for that. And then we talk to people about, well, who are you as an employee? Where did you come from? Talk about your ownership. Talk about the history of the company. Let's talk about your community. What's urban myths, legends, favorite sons and daughters? You know, Maysville, Kentucky is the famous home of Mrs. Clooney. And George goes back to the middle of nowhere. And I love Maysville, by the way. It's a beautiful little town, but it's a tiny, tiny little town. And George Clooney is a favorite, you know, son of Maysville, Kentucky. Still goes to see his mom there regularly. So we want that. We want that,

that, you know, connective tissue. And you do these three whiteboards, you know, one for the sport, one for your organization, history, people, and one for your community. And you start throwing stuff up on those whiteboards, phrases, events, moments in time, history, great stories, funny stories, you know, these myths, legends, and you throw them up on the boards and you try to have an interconnected piece of those three. And then you get someone who understands how to write and you say, write a paragraph about a personality that embodies some of these things. Where did they come from?

What were their struggles in life? How did they find us here? Or have they been here all their lives and we didn't know? What role did we play? Are we a savior? Are we a detractor first, but then we start to accept and fall in some of all of some good storytelling, a very easy paragraph sketch of that. That's the first step. And then once you get that paragraph together, you start saying, what are the visual images that seem to pop up? Certainly their logo slick,

their colors are going to be parts of that. But, you know, what are they? So we created the Kannapolis Intimidators. They were a minor league team that previously were the Piedmont Bow Weevils. And they became the Kannapolis Intimidators because that famous NASCAR driver, Dale Earnhardt, bought the team and his family bought to the team. And they said, this is baseball and this is the South. And we want, you know, we want this all to be true to baseball in the South, but it's absolutely part of who we are as a racing team. And that's why they renamed the team to the Kannapolis Intimidators. And then our job was to help them create a character. Well, the character ended up being named, and through this whole process, the character ended up being named Dub.

And I'll give you one quick shot, Meg. Why would we call him Dub in the South? Oh, gosh. I'm going to betray my Pacific Northwest roots by having to express some regional ignorance here. I don't know. Why? Do you have a guess, Ben? I don't. Okay. So in Southern drawl, I'll say, hey, we're going to get a W today. We're going to get a win. So dub. So that's how it started. Well, W is a win, and in racing, somewhere within Dale Earnhardt's team, we've had a few Ws.

So it's dub. And then we created his face, or I didn't. Our designers created a face that looked like an old Chevy. His cheeks were kind of bumped out like the old classic Chevy grill. He had a nose. We gave him two fanatic-esque tongues. And he wore racing boots and then the team's jersey. And then you just have to continue to treat it like it's a living, breathing entity. jersey and then you just have to continue to treat it like it's a living breathing entity and there's they're based on the story there's some sponsorships that they would be right for but

there would be other sponsorships you know beer distributors you know any other type of environment where that character probably wouldn't go you don't take the money from those sponsors even though they might like to support the character so So, and, and the Phillies over the years have probably left millions and millions of dollars on the table by not saying yes to something that just didn't make sense for the fanatic to be connected to. And it, and it's beautiful because I think, you know, he's 45 going on 46 years since he came from the Galapagos Islands and found veteran stadium. And he's going to be there for, I think hundreds of years, hundreds of years, hundreds of years. As long as we're still on this planet, I believe the Fanatic will be in

Philadelphia. I don't want to make you speak ill of any of your clients or the characters that they have endorsed, but I wonder if there are any mascots that stand out to you as notable failures and what about them missed the mark to the point that, you know, they were not able to come out of that period of everyone hating them to everyone then flipping around and loving them? I will tell you our first huge mistake earlier in our career was we, there were some of my minor league baseball contacts, good friends of mine that got involved in ownership and decision making with the New Orleans Saints. And we created a character that was based on New Orleans myths and voodoo and all those things. And the character was, and it was a fantasy character.

And honest to God, I'm telling you right now, I'm blanking on the name, so I think that's my survival instinct kicking in, because it was such a bad memory, and it just got destroyed by the fans, but rightfully so, there was no real reasoning behind it, except for a little bit of the, you know, the voodoo background, which we discovered, because we were kind of doing it on our own. We didn't know the questions to ask at the time. This is probably in 2001, I'm thinking, right after we started. And it crashed and burned and they ended up creating a dog.

And I think that dog is still there but I just, again again but it was a horrible failure and we learned so much from that that it can't be about what we like or we think is cute you got to go and and understand from your client and I think that you know my my friends from minor league baseball were not born and bred in New Orleans either and I think you know that the ownership was felt like a little bit like an outsider and they never really established that connection. And that, you know, those leadership was gone a few years after we created this character. And and so it was just there's so many of them out there that are that have made some major mistake, either in just making what's it and throw it out there and go, we here we go.

And then not treating a performer like an important part of the process Okay, come on in who wants to do this. Let me check you got a heartbeat. Okay, you're in no training You know all of these things that over time we've learned is so important but it all comes from The organization not believing that this really is important They what they've invested in is the thought of silly wacky furry and that's it this well it just needs to be silly wacky and furry and that's all it needs and then when we're done with the costume we're going to throw it in the

corner over there and let it sit till the next person with a heartbeat comes in to put it on it there are there are so many so many characters like that being tried and tested, but they generally lose very quickly because they haven't been built for any sort of sustainability. They haven't given the foundation they need to survive. And those are, you know, back in the early days in 2000, we were taking on organizations that were clearly showing us they didn't care about it. You know, but we were new. So we were, but the beauty in all of those failures where we were learning, okay, we're not, those are the, when we start seeing and hearing this, um, or we don't have leadership in the room and everybody's nodding their head like, oh yeah, this is going to be great. Uh, but they haven't, nobody in leadership

was invested in it. We just wouldn't take those, those jobs. And I'm, I'm so fortunate today and blessed now that, you know, I'm basically vetting my client as much as they're vetting me. And I'll say, well, maybe we're not right for you. Which to any new business is one of the greatest tricks of sales to get somebody interested in you is as soon as you knock on their door and they say hello and you start talking and after five minutes you go, you know what? I've made a mistake. I don't think you're right for us. Wait, what do you mean? What do you mean? Wait, wait, what do you, wait, wait, stop, come back. But you've got to have a lot of guts to do that. Yeah. Well, speaking of that, I was going to bring up that I think one of our favorite

failed mascots or at least short-lived mascots is Dandy, the former Yankees mascot who we have marveled and or cringed at a few times. Terrifying. It wasn't totally Dandy's fault that he was retired because he kind of looked like Thurman Munson and then Thurman Munson died and it was just bad timing for Dandy, obviously. But the Yankees still don't have a mascot. They're one of the few holdouts in MLB, the Yankees, the Dodgers, the Angels. So sort of a two-parter here. Do you think that any team would benefit from a mascot or are there certain teams where it might actually not be beneficial to the brand? It's just too late. It's not in keeping with the team's image.

And then on the other side of the spectrum, there's been a kind of mascot creep where you have teams, and I'm not responding to creepy mascots or creepy people inside the mascots. I just mean more and more mascots. The Reds, as we discussed recently, have four or more mascots. You know, there are teams that I just wonder whether there are diminishing returns, whether you're diluting or impeding the attachment with any one mascot, if there are several, and that leads to kind of confusion. So what's the ideal number of mascots, and is it ever zero? I mean, the law of diminishing returns is scientific fact. So yeah, you could, especially if you're diluting it with characters that haven't been thought through and are not valued. And I

won't bury the lead. I will tell you, I believe every single brand of any kind could, we could help them. It has to be a collaboration. They have, you know, I can't do it on my own, but if they were invested and believed in it, we could create a great character brand for them. No question. No question. We could do it. And are you familiar with the term BHAG in terms of goals?

It's, it's a, an acronym for big, hairy, audacious Audacious Goal. And it's not hairy because it has anything to do with mascots. It is from the Gazelles brand and a wonderful company that helps organizations decide what their five-year picture is going to be. And so the BHAG is an important one. So our first one was, well, Disney will buy from us. That will be so good that Disney will buy from us. And the other one was, we're going to create the greatest character for a mortician ever. We're going to put fun in funerals. Because we believe that every brand, and I do believe that about a funeral. There was a funeral company in Philadelphia, unknowingly what our BHAG was, did a commercial, said we put the fund in funerals. It was for alternative funerals,

families of somebody who had passed, who lived a long life and was just a huge fan of comedy and silliness. And they would make those funerals different, full of whoopee cushions and hand buzzers. And it worked for the right families. That's what I think. This will work. The organization has to believe it's an important effort. That's all that I need. So if the Yankees were to come to me tomorrow, and I've worked with some New York brands, I've worked with some LA brands and help them at least consider the concept. And one of those actually introduced a character that is, I think, thriving now. So it can work. I think in New York's case, and it's fair, is that there is this belief that it's the greatest city on the planet, especially by the people who live there. And they do have, you know, they're one of the few cities

that has multiple major league sports teams in all of the major sports organizations. And they've, you know, if I have to hear 28 world championships one more time, I'm going to slap myself because we're from Philadelphia. So we live in the shadow of the Big Apple. Only 27. We don't need to give them any extras. Oh, I thought it was 28. I thought 2009 against the Phillies was 28. I think it's still 27. Yeah. Thank you. You're very nice and kind, Ben. I appreciate it. I feel just as bad, but I appreciate the event. So I think any character, yes, there could be a great character brand for any organization, but the simple fact is the leadership has to believe it's the right thing to do.

And there is a lot of fear, I think, in the Dodgers, and I would say fear, not that they're frightened of this every day. But when it's brought up, there's fear of the Dodgers, there's fear of the Yankees and of the Brooklyn Nets and all these other handful of teams that don't have characters, they go, well, we don't want to make a misstep. We don't want to make this a mess. And why do we really need it? And ultimately, the why do we really need it comes up with, and we don't need it. And they're probably right. But my answer is still the same. We could collaborate to help create a great character brand for any of those organizations.

But like the Flyers, they would have to have a change in leadership or ownership. And there need to be the transference in these, you know, new people come in, new ideas, and they say, look, we just don't want to do this anymore. We don't want to lose this opportunity anymore. And that becomes the, you know, the defining moment to say, we're going to do this. And before I let you go, I want to ask a couple of questions about performing. I guess it would have been more appropriate to start there since that's where you started, but we will end there instead.

I think people are always curious about what it's like inside the suit, right? And there's a perception that it's very hot and it's sweaty and it's uncomfortable and it's cumbersome and it's bulky. And I just wonder how should it smell in there and how does it actually smell in practice and how much have mascot ventilation and hygiene and comfort improved since the 70s? Yeah, well, look, physically, let's talk about that real quick. It's a crucible. I've been an athlete my whole life. Back in the day when the NCAA allowed double practices where you were practicing early in the morning, say getting on the field around 6 o'clock in the morning, practicing for two hours, going to have something to eat, taking a nap, going back and having another two-hour practice from 5 until 7 and doing that for 12 straight days. for 12 straight days. I've never thought I would ever run in anything more physically challenging than that in preseason, but it's that plus. There's been nothing like it. So there are a rare

few that can handle that crucible and then get to the point where they accept that pain because they're used to it. And once that critical moment happens, then they start to see the value. And I say this to everybody. Imagine if your job was just to show up and when you did, everybody around you felt better. No matter what was going on in their lives, they felt better. And they are hugging you, whether you like it or not, taking pictures with you, and then hashtag brushes with greatness. And people constantly yelling,

I love you. Imagine what that would be like daily. So if you move the physical part out of it, you get used to it, you get in shape, then that's all you're seeing every time you put the costume on. And yes, it's tiring and the costume smells, so you have to clean it. You spray it with vodka and water. That works. You don't have to buy Febreze or anything else. You have to clean it you you spray it with vodka and water that works that you don't have to buy for breeze or anything else you have to wash it occasionally you don't want to wash it too often enough to keep it so it doesn't smell bad and you have to do all those things every job you've ever had no matter how much you love it has things about it you don't like but the most amazing part of this and this is you know when i retired from the philips people said you know do you miss it?

And I tell them immediately, I don't miss the physicality, although it's kept me in shape all these years. I mean, people say, wow, I'm 67. And people look at me and go, gosh, you don't look like you're 67. And I said, well, if you come along a journey with me and for 27 years, because after the Phillies, I continue to perform, you'll be in great shape. But I love the performance. And so I'd say, I miss the fans and I miss the performance. But in the world that I live in, in keynote speaking, I get to perform again. And then I get to use the best of nonverbal and the best of verbal. And I'm telling people what the fanatic has to offer all of us to be emotionally happier and healthier. And that's,

you can design, you don't need to be in a costume. You can design this effort, this performance into being kind and recognizing gratitude and, and talking to people, ask them questions and listening to what they had to say. And it is a secret that people have right under their, their noses that they just need to be aware of that, you know, to be the fanatic or to be any of these characters, you're engaging in the most wonderful process to connect to people on an emotional level, make them feel valued, give them a moment of joy. And we can do this every day and, you know, without a costume. And so the beauty of my, the change in my career is that I get to perform again. And, and I get to speak to audiences all over the country and it's, and it's all because of the fanatic. And that's where the real heart and power of, of my industry is, is that each one of

these characters, if they're done well, are doing that in their community every single day. And we, we just have to look at that and go, Hey, wait, wait, I can do that. I just need to pay attention to my kids a little bit more. I got to ask them how their day was. I got to tell them how much I love them. I got to give them a hug. We got to take silly pictures and keep them, you know, in our digital albums. And it's really been so wonderful. I've been so blessed because there isn't a day that doesn't go by where somebody doesn't find out what I did in my career and say, oh my gosh, that's the greatest thing in the world. Thank you. Yeah, that's so heartwarming that I feel guilty asking this question.

But in the Times piece, you know, you talk about just the emotional connection and how the mascot is sort of a symbol of the team, but kind of brings the team and the fan base together. And, you know, the fans are inviting you to come in and hug and interact physically with a piece of the team. And we're saving one possible form of physical interaction with the mascot for the After Dark podcast. But another form, in addition to all the hugs and the smiles and the selfies and so forth, occasionally someone will decide to interact physically

with a mascot in a potentially harmful way. We talked earlier this season about Dinger, the Rockies mascot, just getting assaulted, just getting tackled on top of the dugout. people who take the armor that one is wearing as a mascot as sort of a license for violence to say that I could just get a shot in at this guy, whoever's in there. I won't have to look in their face. Maybe they won't feel it. It's funny to attack the mascot that everyone else is hugging. How often does that happen and how do you deal with it? Well, it's great. This is another life lesson, Ben and Meg. Everywhere you go, there is 10% stupidity factor going on. And the reason why I know that, and most of us know it, is that we have at one point in our lives or another been in that 10% stupidity factor. And we all continue to slide back into it from time to time.

And so some of it has to do, some of it's amplified by the fact that there's alcohol involved. There's, you know, some drugs that might be involved. So you, you, those people might lose the, the concept of what's right and wrong for a moment. Um, but I would say ill will against the fanatic. So let's talk, I mean, there were all kinds of bumps and bruises and players that did things to me. Um, and I would say 95% of it was a compliment because they actually thought that I was a live furry being that could not be hurt. And they were just, you know, they were just doing, hey, let's see if the cartoon character can be tossed off this dugout. And he, oh, he bounces. Look at that. So, I mean, I think that a lot of it, 95% of it was not ill will. 5%, yeah, there was some ill will, but then I'm giving him credit because it was usually ill will from an opposing fan base. The Mets fans being the toughest for me. And, you know, and I'm willing to accept that because I think it's done out of passion.

accept that because I think it's done out of passion. Overwhelmingly though, it is a safe environment. Overwhelmingly, people are really kind, especially when you're doing a good job and entertaining them. I love telling the story about Mets fans in general, many of them, but my favorite one is, and I'll clean it up, hey, you big fat thing, get the F out of my way. And as the fanatic responds the way he should, slumps his shoulders and starts to walk away because people will then boo the Mets fan for yelling at the fanatic. But then they'll say, wait, wait, wait, hold on, come over here and take a picture with my kids first and then get the heck out of the way. So, you know, it's really, they recognize the value, but, you know, you're representing, It's really they recognize the value, but you're representing the opposition.

So there's a lot of emotion caught up in that. But 95% wasn't ill will. It was just people believing so much the fanatic was real and that I was a pretty good athlete. So players would see me throw and catch and they would think I could catch their fastball. But meanwhile, a gloved hand, I don't, I have like what amounts to a gardening glove on my hand. So no protection, protection when they, when somebody like paying you the, the catcher for the, for the pirates would think that I could just, you know, catch anything. So, you know, I, I took that as a compliment, but I think overall, it's just my attitude that, you know, people, you know, want to do something that's funny and they don't realize that it's really could be physically harmful.

You know, it's not true foghorn, leghorn or the coyote and, you know, and the roadrunner. It's true to life. So I just forget I did such a good job. They actually thought it was a cartoon character. We got one listener question who wanted to know, what do performers' best friends do with their face inside the suit? Are you animated in that you're dancing and you're goofing around and you're maybe smiling because it helps get into character, but you don't have to be smiling because the suit is smiling. So does your face

get tired or are you just not feeling so happy inside there some days? And maybe you're just completely stone-faced inside the suit as the mascot is happily taking pictures with children. Yeah, I think it's a great question and one they get asked often. I think that having a camera inside a character's face to see the performer would be a really wonderful study. But as, and I teach and train people to be good in costume. And I, I actually have an exercise where I put them in front of a mirror without a costume on. And I say, I give them what a neutral expression poses with hands just at the side, standing normally upright. And then I want them to get happy with their body and I'll go one through five, five being the happiest.

And I'll say, but your face can't reflect any happiness at all. And then I reverse it and do it the other way. I want your face to be happy and I don't want your body to show it. And it's impossible. And that's the whole point of the exercise. If you want your character to look happy,

you've got to be smiling at the biggest, goofiest grin that you can possibly maximize facially through your muscles because that connects to your brain your brain is thinking that you're happy and you can fake a smile and your body will respond in kind and that's the way to get your body into position so yes all those pictures taken the fanatic dave raymond the best friend was smiling like a goofball to get the fanatic looking like he was smiling like the fanatic, Dave Raymond, the best friend, was smiling like a goofball to get the fanatic looking like he was smiling like the fanatic would smile. So, you know, it's impossible to have one without the other. So, and no one can see you. So why do you have to worry about whether

you look or feel goofy? And it is constantly the new performers that come into my mascot bootcamp will say, I feel like such an idiot. And I go, what do you think? Well, I'm smiling all the time and nobody can see me. I go, no, they can see you. They just can't see your face, your character. Look at the picture. You try to do a smile pose where you're not smiling. Let me take a still shot of your character.

Then you smile and you will see a difference in that character's posture and the way, and truly no matter what the expression of the character costume is, people will swear that the character is smiling, which is tough when you're a shark and you've got these nasty teeth, teeth bearing shark look on your face and say, oh, look, he's smiling. But it but it actually works. And I think getting the performers to know that you need to use your face to get your body to do what you want it to do non-verbally. Well, that leads me to maybe my last question, which is about scouting potential performers, aka best friends, and you train them. But it sounds like you had all the tools, right, as a performer prospect, because you were a self-described wise

ass. You know, you like to climb around and your mother was deaf, the Times piece mentioned. So you had a lot of experience with gesturing and expressing yourself non-verbally. So can you scout someone as a potential best friend, blue chip best friend, or is it something that has to be taught? Is it always evident outside the suit that someone would make a good mascot? Or do some people kind of come alive and have the freedom to perform only when they're inside the suit? How much of that is nature versus nurture? Well, I think it's – we have a profile.

And the profile includes things like you have some creative endeavor that you love to do and you're good at. You have some creative endeavor that you love to do and you're good at. So sketching, drawing, painting, photography, music, any type of expression, creative expression, is a good little bullet point that if you have that in your background, we like it. What type of an athlete were you? Were you physically competent in any sport? That's a good, because you have awareness of self. You've got great eye-hand coordination. That's all really great. Then, you know, have you acted before? Where have you acted? What did you do? What type of acting training have you had? Do you love to dance or do

you need liquid courage to be able to dance? You know, all of these things that we would run. So there's people that don't know it. If they start getting a lot of these bullet point checks from our profile, they probably could be a really good character performer. Then you have to bring them in and make sure they're not frightened of physicality. And that's why the athletics comes in. They're not afraid of being in enclosed places or not being able to breathe the same way they breathe. And if they can overcome all of those physical barriers, then they could really be great at this. And yes, training helps. I was so blessed to be on a podcast with Jason Alexander

from, or as everybody would like to say, I got to sit and talk to George Costanza. I had, this was just a few weeks ago, I was on his podcast, Really No Really, and he was talking about how, one, he said, watching the Fanatic, there was, there's so much wonderful talent in there, that your timing was great, and of course, that was nice to hear from somebody that I respect and admired for years because of his work. But then he said, you wouldn't surprise you that I, you know, teach acting. And I've got people that walk into my door and say, nope, get out. I can't teach anything.

I'm only going to screw you up. You know, and that realization when people come in the door that I know this person after the first day, they just need encouragement. Tell them to play music. Tell them to dance as much as they can. They're great. Tell them how good they are at it naturally and let them grow into the physicality of it. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there's people where I go, Josh, they're just not really going to be good at this. But I try to encourage them and show them what they're doing well. And I do know the beauty of that is if they still continue to pursue

something that fundamentally as a performer, they're not good at, they're learning so many great skill sets. Whether it's video editing, music editing, the understanding of event production, game operations. They're learning all these skill sets that even if they don't make it in costume, on their resume that they've had this training and they did this work would be as attractive to somebody who's hiring them in that environment. So, because there's only, just like any other, you know, of the greatest performers, there's only a few opportunities that pay six-figure salaries and that are full-time jobs and that they get to work for, you know, the best sports brands in the business. There's not that many opportunities for that, but there is a wonderful opportunity to learn about how to communicate and connect. And the natural skill of me communicating nonverbally,

because my mom went deaf, went from a hearing woman to a deaf woman, when I was three and she was 29, and her audiologist and the people helping her with her hearing aids was saying, you know, that Susie, you have to be in front of people. You have to be able to read their lips and this hearing aid will amplify sound. So as a three-year-old, I was told I had to get in front of my mom and that I had to communicate that way with my mom. And then I realized I could make my mom laugh and smile if I was silly. And it wasn't until just a few years ago. My mom used to tell me when media folks would ask me if I felt that was part of my success,

and I would poo-poo it because I thought I was taking advantage of my mom's deafness in some odd way. And then I would go home and tell my mom, she goes, oh no, David, three years old, you've been dancing around, being silly, now you're getting paid for it, I'm thrilled. So there are people that have a natural ability to do these things, and I'm able to recognize that right away. Just minutes into their costume performance when I have a bunch of drills that I put them through first to see how good they are. And we do this all online now, too. We have an asynchronous boot camp where then people connect with me afterwards and send me video. And I can see right away, oh, gosh, this person could really be good at this.

But it's a very small industry. So where will they be honing their craft? And will they be able to make a living doing it? That's always the tough part. But enjoying it and having a good time and working in their community doing cool things, that has great value too. Right. Yeah. It's like being a broadcaster. There are only so many jobs, right? So you need every team to have as many mascots as the Reds and then there will be more positions for everyone. I guess that'd be good for your business too.

Recruit some buff theater kids. Yes. Well, thanks so much for talking to us today. Before we started recording it, we don't do this podcast over video, so I'm always self-conscious about saying nice to meet you to someone when I'm not seeing them and I'm not in their presence. But I said that to you, and then I said, well, it's probably not that different from if I were talking to you when you were in character as a mascot, and then you noted that, well, if you were in character, then you would not be talking at all. And then you'd be a terrible podcast guest, so you've been much better to talk to than Gritty or the Fanatic. I appreciate the podcasts that don't have the video element because I'm sitting here in my sweat. Yes, that's why we don't do it. I probably could use a shower just as if I had been performing. So, of course, that wouldn't be translated across video, but you might get the idea looking the way I look.

So, yeah, I appreciate that. And I do want to say I just absolutely love what you two are doing. I think the podcast industry as a whole is just such a wonderful, creative platform. But, you know, the conversations that you two have had and the topics you're talking about, and they certainly resonate with me because athletics has been my entire life. know, the conversations that you two have had and the topics you're talking about, and they certainly resonate with me because athletics has been my entire life. But I love what you're doing, and I appreciate it. And you guys are both really good at it.

It's comfortable. It's easy to listen to. And I just want to tell you how much I appreciate that work. Well, thanks so much. It means a lot. Coming from the Jane Goodall of Massachusetts, I really appreciate that. I've got that down. I'm going right to my website.

Yeah. I mean, you know, other than who's given more to mascotdom than you? Obviously, there's a Jim Henson influence there who was consulted on The Fanatic and Bonnie Erickson, who was the former head of the Muppet Workshop, who designed Miss Piggy and The Fanatic. So you see that sort of Hensonian legacy when it comes to mini mascot designs. And one of the most brilliant creative people I've ever met, Bonnie, was and is a genius in that regard. So it was a pleasure to get to know her and work with her. And a piece of her is in The Fanatic as well. Well, you mentioned your website.

You have multiple websites that we could direct people to. There is the website for Raymond Entertainment, which is RaymondDG.com. We could also direct people to Dave Raymond Speaks if you want him to speak to you the way that he has been speaking to us. That's DaveRaymondSpeaks.com. And, of course, I mentioned the book, The Power of Fun. And then there's the Mascot Hall of Fame, which we hardly addressed, but people can check out the MascotHallofFame.com where voting is ongoing now for the 2023 mascot class. The MLB candidates include Wally the Green Monster and Slugger of the Portland Seadogs. And, of course, you are not only the founder of the Mascot Hall of Fame, but I suppose a founding member.

Do you consider yourself a Mascot Hall of Famer or is the Fanatic a Hall of Famer or is there a performer's wing? No, no, the Fanatic is a separate and distinct entity from me. and distinct entity from me, but I, it's like you look at him and I, and I, I just feel there, there is some of my, uh, my blood, sweat and tears inside of him. But, uh, it's still an, an honor to see a character that you've been involved in seriously inducted. I mean, it's, we have a lot of fun instilling this at the Moscow hall of fame. I mean, that's what it's about, but, but it's a, believe it or not, a rigorous process. I'm also an executive committee member. So, yeah. Did you have to recuse yourself from the fanatic consideration?

Well, back then, things were a little loose. I mean, we put this together in a whim and we inducted the fanatic, the chicken and the Phoenix gorilla on the first class because we thought nobody would argue with that until I saw Kornheiser and Wilbon argue about it. I'm like, oh, my God. Who could quibble with the fanatic? That's not favoritism, I think. So thank you very much, David. It's been great talking to you.

My pleasure, guys. Thank you. Have a great week. Well, I almost can't believe this, but our patented, effectively wild career resuscitating powers worked with unprecedented speed this time. As Meg and I were talking about Trey Turner's slow start, he had had three plate appearances in the game on Wednesday. He was 0 for 3. He came up again in the seventh. He struck out. He was getting booed. And then in the bottom of the ninth, he hits a game-tying two-run home run, and the Phillies go on to win in 10. So this time,

the podcast powers took two plate appearances for him to go from goat to hero. That almost can't be beaten. Phillies manager Rob Thompson said that was big. Maybe that's his signature moment that gets him going here. Little does he know that what actually got him going was us bantering about him in a then unpublished podcast. So now we'll see if he stays hot. All right. I've got a pass blast for you, which comes to us as usual from David Lewis, an architectural historian and baseball researcher based in Boston, it also comes to us today from 2011. David writes, the NCAA cracks down on bats. In 2011, in an attempt to combat high scoring averages and avoid potentially dangerous line drives, the NCAA updated its regulations on bats that could be used in collegiate baseball games.

The new rule outlawed the use of composite bats, opting instead for more standardized aluminum models that featured smaller sweet spots. Officials hoped that aluminum bats within the new standard would perform similarly to wood bats. The change was in part motivated by explosive offensive numbers seen in the game in preceding years. Between 2007 and 2010, average runs scored per game rose from 6.1 to 6.98. Another more pressing motivation for changing the bats was player safety. Balls jumped off of the composite bats in a trampoline-like fashion, not leaving pitchers enough time to get out of the way of a line drive hit up the middle. Probably pretty dangerous for birds, too. After a year at the collegiate level, David continues, the rule was to be applied to high school baseball in 2012.

And this banning of composite bats had the intended effect. In fact, if anything, it worked a little too well. This was an attempt to stem the tide of offense that started rising in 1974 when aluminum bats were introduced. But in that first year that composite bats were banned, the home run rate was almost halved from 1.88 per game to 1.04 per game. And then it kept sinking. So by 2014, the rate was at an all-time low, 0.78 home runs per game. So at that point, the NCAA intervened

to send things back in the other direction. Up until 2015, the college ball had higher seams than the pro ball, so it was higher drag, didn't carry as well. Then in 2015, they switched to a flatter-seamed baseball that was closer to the one that they used in the minors. And since then, offense has been climbing. By 2019, it was sort of settling in at about a homer and a half per game.

But since then, it's spiked again. Reading an Axios piece from earlier this month that noted that the rate was 2.25 homers per game, which was the highest ever. So now more homerific and offense-friendly than it was even before they banned the composite bats. So we're sort of right back in the same situation. Maybe aside from some of the safety concerns, the Axios piece says improved bat technology again might have something to do with the home run rise, but it says the most logical reason for the home run boom likely stems from two COVID related changes. In the wake of the pandemic, the NCAA granted athletes an extra year of eligibility and MLB reduced its draft from 20 rounds to five, yielding a glut of MLB prospects and fifth-year

seniors in Division I. Those better, more experienced players would likely be out of college under normal circumstances. Instead, they're helping fuel this historic surge in dingers. Of course, some of those players are presumably pitchers, but maybe older, stronger players leads to more homers. I'm not a college baseball expert, but I'm sure we'll talk about this when the draft rolls around. Two notes on recent comments. Last time I made an offhand comment about Jan Goms' hitting prowess. This came up when we were talking about Goms, quote unquote, sacrificing a chicken to revive his bat in 2016. I said something about him maybe not having sacrificed enough chickens in his career. 2016, I said something about him maybe not having sacrificed enough chickens in his career. However,

I impugned Jan Goms. He's been a pretty good hitter for a catcher. From 2012 to 2023, the span of his career, the average catcher in Major League Baseball has had an 89 WRC+. Jan Goms has a career 91 WRC+. So he's not a good hitter compared to the league, but he is above the baseline for catchers and he's had some good offensive years. Also, in a recent pass blast when Zach Hample, the famous slash notorious ball hawk, came up, I said something about his reputation for pushing kids out of the way as he tries to catch balls. One listener wrote in to note that that's not confirmed. It hasn't been documented. It's something people say about him. A lot of people don't love his ball hawking activities, but it's true. I can't claim to have seen that happen or seen any well-documented

example of it happening. And regardless of whom we're discussing, I do endeavor to be fair. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pled some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay ad free and get themselves access to some perks. Brendan Comstock, Matthew Killian, David Kim, Jason Lee, and Tyrone Palmer. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group, where you too can point out when I have underrated Jan Gomes' bat and talk about lots of other fun stuff too. You also get access to playoff live streams and monthly bonus episodes, plus discounts on merch and ad-free Fangraphs

memberships and so much more. Patreon.com slash Effectively Wild. If you are a supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. You can also email us at podcast at Fangraphs.com. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild. You can follow Effectively Wild on Twitter at EWpod. David Raymond, by the way, is on there also at Emperor of Fun. And you can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance and his suggestion to talk to David Raymond.

We will be back with one more episode before the end of the week. Talk to you then. I want to hear about Shohei Ohtani Or Mike Trout with free money