Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2120: Corbin Competencies

Episode Date: February 3, 2024

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley break down the Corbin Burnes trade between the Orioles and Brewers, then (23:19) talk to 81-year-old Don Kessinger, former six-time All-Star shortstop for the Cubs, about being an amateur multi-sport star, learning to switch-hit after making the majors, playing in Sandy Koufax’s perfect game, hitting in the low-offense 1960s, facing […]

Hello and welcome to episode 2120 of Effectively Wild, the Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangraphs and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? I'm excited because we've got an octogenarian on the podcast today. Yeah. It's always my favorite. You know I'm going to be in a great mood when I can say that, right? We are going to be talking to Don Kessinger,

Chicago Cubs primarily legend later on this episode. You know, we heard from a listener, Patreon supporter, Kevin, who is Don Kessinger's next door neighbor. And he said, you should talk to this guy sometime. He's got incredible stories. He's the nicest man. He is a wonderful storyteller. And he actually approached us about that for the first time a few years ago. And I was interested then. I don't know why we didn't take him up on the offer to connect us immediately. But I think it was maybe because Don Kessinger was still in his 70s at that time. He needed more seasoning to really get me

interested. So now, not a nonagenarian, but I'll always take an octogenarian. DonKessinger is 81 years old and sharp as ever. And he has a lot of great stories. He is the most recent and probably last ever player manager in the American League. He played with and against a lot of incredible players we talked to him about. He is the grandfather of Gray Kessinger, who debuted for the Astros last year, meet a major leaguer. Just a ton of stuff to talk to Don Kessinger about. And we already have.

So we can guarantee that it's good. He's a delightful man. And so I'm in a wonderful mood now. And you know who else is probably in a wonderful mood? Baltimore Orioles fans. Yeah. Things are going great for them, too. Things are really looking mood? Baltimore Orioles fans. Yeah. Things are going great for them, too. Things are really looking up for those Orioles fans.

Do you feel personally responsible for the good mood in the city of Baltimore today? I don't know whether I should take credit or apologize or realistically neither, probably, because no one cares what I say. I mean, realistically neither. I care what you say and a great many other people do, but I would imagine that the front office of the Baltimore Orioles and the Milwaukee Brewers for that matter aren't like especially on that list. No, did I light a fire under them?

We better get moving here. We better make a deal. Even Ben Lindbergh is coming after us. Mild-mannered Ben Lindbergh is getting his dander up. So, yeah, I gave them guff. I gave them grief. Now I got to give them credit because they went out and they did the thing. And I said, at least in the second ordeal, you know, if Michael Ias follows through, if he actually is aggressive, if he goes and gets the top of the rotation pitcher and trades the prospects then we will come back on and we will praise him for that and i do the

baltimore orioles now have corbin burns and a couple fewer prospects this is really an incredible move by them i don't mean that that's necessarily a bad move for Milwaukee. We can talk about that, but it's a really great move for the Orioles. Yeah. I think that I'm going to be annoying to Orioles fans for just the hottest, briefest of seconds, and then it's going to be okay. So, just like stick with me, friends. They could still use another starter, you know. Probably, friends. They could still use another starter, you know? Probably, yeah. I think that the most pressing need that Baltimore had on their entire roster, as we covered, as other Ben covered in his plea to the Orioles to do something, anything, as, you know, in a weird way, one of my pre-season predictions sort of pled with them to do right go like in a roundabout way because i thought that burns would move before the year

was done you know they just they needed top line pitching they needed the ace at the top of that rotation and of the guys who were conceivably available, at least in the trade market in Baltimore, just never seemed likely to go out and spend Blake Snell money or Jordan Montgomery money, even though we don't know what that money really looks like quite yet. I would argue that Burns was the best sort of available guy, better than Cease, even though he isn't going to do quite the volume of innings that we might expect from Cease. isn't going to do quite the volume of innings that we might expect from Cease. So I think that this makes Baltimore appreciably, meaningfully better as they try to win the East. And I think, you know, importantly for a team whose sites have to shift from accruing future value and even need to shift from just being competitive in the regular season. This makes them meaningfully more dangerous come October because I think that one of the things that went wrong for them in that postseason series was that they couldn't really quite hang

in terms of their starting pitching, that is. So this was a thing that they had to do. And amongst the options, they got, I think, the best one that they could have. I think even more than Snell. And that's not just because I don't like watching Snell pitch. I do think that they could use some reinforcements still in that rotation because, you know, you're relying on guys who are younger or coming back from meaningful injury or who are just, you know, don't have quite the ceiling that someone like Burns does. This thought just occurred to me that you can never have enough pitching. You can never have enough pitching. I just thought of that. Yeah, just now.

Yeah. I've never heard anyone make that particular point, but it strikes me as true. Yeah. Yeah. You're breaking news out here um but like i think that um even in in light of that which i realized orioles fans i know i'm so i know so annoying i'm just like the most annoying girl alive right but um while that need still probably remains first of all even with um this trade, still guys in that farm system who I imagine are going to be appealing to other clubs, whether now or come the deadline. And,

you know, you're just, you're pushing up the ceiling of the whole thing. And, you know, one thing that I have been kind of struck by, you know, a bit of business that I need to resolve because I've been at times historically, perhaps, ungenerous to the various Kyles. Kyle Bradish projects okay, you know, like, I mean, he should just after the way he pitched last year. Yeah, last year. So, like, if you think that you're getting, you know, like, this version of Kyle Bradish, After the way he pitched last year. Dean Kramer is still interesting. Like, you know, I still, again, think that they need another guy, but like, that's not a bad group. It's not the best rotation in baseball, but it is meaningfully better. And I think that they properly appreciated both where their need was.

It was super obvious. Would have been weird if Michael Issa had been like, actually, I think we need another infielder, you know, like what's really going to distinguish this team is another infielder. But kind of properly appreciating that they're at that point on the win curve where additional wins mean so much to your postseason hopes to where you end up slotting in in that playoff field. So I think an exciting, a really big, exciting day for Baltimore.

And, you know, we don't know, Ben, what will happen with the various potential extensions that are on deck for Baltimore, whether it's their young position players or Burns, who, as we noted, is a year away from free agency. But, you know, I think an interesting potential test for this new ownership group. You have Burns in the building now. Can you get a deal done to keep him an Oriole for a long time? Are you going to splash some money there? I think that that will be an interesting thing to monitor over the next little bit. Yeah. It's not clear to me whether the ownership news had anything to do with this trade. Yeah, I don't know. Who can say? The timing.

You know, it's like, does this finally shake something loose? Or is that a coincidence? Michael, I said he was being as aggressive as anyone. So maybe it just happened to come together after that news was announced. But, you know, it's a nice little morale boost. And if you want the Rubenstein regime to be well regarded, well, hey, we've been on the job for a day or two. We just got Corbyn Burns. We're not even in control yet. Just our mere presence has lured Corbyn Burns. And yeah, one Corbyn Burns makes a major difference because we cited the projections for the Orioles rotation.

Their whole starting staff were 24th in baseball last time we mentioned that. They're 12th now just because they have added Corbin Burns, one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball, certainly, I would say. He's coming off not his best year. He's maybe lost a tick and is perhaps not quite so filthy as he was a couple years ago, but he's still really good. Not a lot of pitchers I would draft to start a starting rotation with before Corbin Burns. And if October rolls around and you have healthy Corbin Burns and Braddish and Grayson Rodriguez, that could be quite an intimidating top three. So yeah, you got to get there first. And I agree that they could use an additional arm. They could use one more. But this is just a

heck of a coup that they have pulled off here. And really, it didn't cost them much to do it. Now, I don't mean to denigrate the quality of the players that the Brewers acquired. I just mean, from the Orioles' perspective, they will not feel the loss of Joey Ortiz, D.L. Hall, and a competitive bounce pick. I mean, those were among the more expendable players. Certainly Ortiz, who I like. I think he'll be a good, solid big leaguer for years to come. Top 100 guy for us, yeah. Yeah, but he's not Gunnar Henderson.

He's not Jackson Holiday. He was not going to play. There was no place for Joey Ortiz other than Norfolk. So if someone was going to be expend There was no place for Joey Ortiz other than Norfolk. So, if someone was going to be expendable, it was him. And D.L. Hall, I don't know exactly what to make of him. And, you know, I think if he is a reliever, I think he could potentially be a good reliever and anyone could use a good reliever. But if that is what he is, then it's not something that you should let hold you back from acquiring Corbin Burns, even if it's for one year, at least for now.

So I don't know whether the Brewers still see him as a starter and think they can make that work. They certainly have had a knack for improving pitchers in the past. So from their perspective, I don't think it's like a wildly bad return. I've seen the word fleeced used in connection with this trade. Yeah, I think fleeced is a little strong. It's not super exciting maybe. And maybe it's disappointing because you just traded Corbin Burns. Right.

And I could have seen the case for the Brewers just not trading Corbin Burns. Like that was an option that was available to them too. Yep. But if they did decide to trade Corbin Burns, you know, it's a decent player package I think you're getting. I mean, certainly if you're going to do whatever dollars per war math, it's going to come out looking okay. Just because you got lots of team control there. Now, Ortiz is not young. He's already 25. Yeah, they both are. Yeah. And Ortiz, they're ready to just step right in there, except the Brewers

have Adamas at shortstop for this season. For now. At least. Yeah, for now. Right. I don't say that in like a sassy, I know something's coming. I say that in a like very obvious, for now, you know. Right, yeah. So it just, it wasn't clear which way they were gonna go

because of losing Woodruff and, but then, and cutting Canna loose and, but then signing Hoskins. And it was like, oh wait, are they gonna maybe go for it again? And I think the fact that they went for major league ready mid-20s guys as opposed to super youngster lottery ticket types who maybe have higher ceilings, that suggests to me this isn't like a rebuild, really. This is a we want to keep contending, i think is less likely without corbin burns at least for right now but i guess i sort of see what they're doing yeah i think the way that i would

put it is it suggests to me that they play in one of the central divisions you know i think that when you're in and you know that's maybe a little snarkier than i mean but like it you you do have some wiggle room um when that is true to sort of be coming and going all right at the same time i think that um you know it will be interesting to see how they understand uh dl hall's role to your point like he has a hellacious fastball he can get away with being wild with that fastball because of how nasty it is. But the rest of the repertoire doesn't really support that. As Eric Longnagin pointed out in his write-up of this, like he just has an incredibly long arm action. And so I wonder if they will try to shorten him up to make the whole operation just more easily repeatable.

Because he has just walked like a lot of guys you know and i think that there is something to the idea that a team that was as pitching needy as the orioles had this guy in house and was like he's a reliever for us so you know that's that's something but also you know milwaukee is good at this they're good at pitching dev i think that they've had success there. And I don't know that Baltimore ever really meaningfully tried to shorten him up or change his mechanics. So we'll have to see. So, you know, I don't know. I think these one-year deals, like when you have one year of control left for a guy, like this is kind of what it yields. and I think it would be interesting to try to really grapple with like can you leverage a little bit more out of another team if you wait to the deadline you have less time with the guy but your leverage is greater because presumably teams that are trying to add starting pitching come July are like trying to push in not only to make the postseason but to perform well while

they're there but when you think about some of the other trade packages that have come down for guys sort of with similar amounts of team control or more team control but they're also owed more money like this doesn't strike me as like they got fleeced it just strikes me as when this is how much team control is left, this is kind of what you're going to get. And particularly after the arbitration kerfuffle, like, it didn't seem like there was a path forward for Burns to stay in the organization long term, which, you know, granted probably had more to do with the money than anything else. But when a guy comes out of the arbitration process and says it's

eye-opening about the organization, that seems bad. And I know we've talked before about how predictive really is that if you end up offering a big check on the other side of it, but it didn't seem like he and the org were necessarily in the best spot. So if you're a Brewers fan, the org were necessarily in the best spot. So if you're a Brewers fan, you can feel disappointed because at the end of the day, like the best starter on your team isn't on your team anymore. And this is sort of the end of an era for Milwaukee, right? Like they're really looking to their young guys, you know, apart from Yelich, like a lot of that group that really defined this last era of Brewers baseball is gone now, you know, all the way down to council. So if you're a Brewers fan, like, well, you don't

have to listen to me when I tell you how to feel, but it's fine to feel disappointed. I don't know that that's necessarily on DL Hall or Joey Ortiz or, you know, the 34th pick in the draft and the pool space that comes with it. But, you know, it's disappointing. It's disappointing to have the door feel like it's closing, even though you play in the NL Central. So it's always like propped open a little bit, you know, got to let that Midwest humidity in in the summer months. The Brewers now, they have the 23rd highest projected starting pitch.

It wasn't great before that, though. No, I guess not. But now they've basically taken the Orioles' former place. And it's been a strength for them for so long, right? That starting rotation. And now Peralta's the last man standing of that group. You know, Woodruff's gone and Burns is gone and even Hauser is gone, right? It's going to be a different type of team and a different group of guys.

Yeah. But long-term, I mean, I do think that Ortiz will be good. You know, good glove, solid bat. Like he should be an above average player, I think, for a while. So started hitting the ball harder. His quality of contact really improved last year. So can see kind of how sticky that ends up being. Corbin Burns, you're right that he is maybe not quite as dominant as he's been in years past. Although, like, you know, things seem to get better for him as the season went on. His second half numbers are considerably better than his first half were last year. So, like, you know, who knows? Maybe he was mad about ARP. Could be. Could be. Here's the most important question, though. Can I, you know, who knows? Maybe he was mad about our could be. Yeah, it'd be. Here's the

most important question, though. Can I ask you the most important question? And I'm I'm I'm cheating a little bit because after posing this question, I was sent an easy central article about it. So like it's February 2nd, you know, and famously pitchers and catchers, they report very soon. They do. Where is Corbin Byrd's gonna live? live you know he has to go to florida now and i wondered you know does he get out of his lease with uh whoever he you know but here's what i found out based on a story in az central which just goes to show that i am right that being famous is terrible because who wants this put in the paper? He bought a house in Scottsdale. He bought a home here in the Valley. Yeah. I wonder if he'll be able to rent it to D.L. Hall. Yeah. Maybe Joey Ortiz and D.L. Hall can go in on that. Yeah. It's so disruptive.

You know, the only difference between me and professional athletes is their baseline capacity to deal with the idea of moving. It's like two weeks. He's got to find a new place to live in like two weeks. He's got a family. They have a baby. He is a pitcher. He has to report.

You must report, Corbin Reitz. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure like quite motivated to report. Not that he wasn't motivated to report before, but like I would imagine, you know, especially you want to put your best foot forward. You're, you're like coming into a new organization. Everyone's excited to have you because you're going to help them like march to the postseason and you don't even know where you're marching from because where do you live? Yeah. And there are some pitchers who are not even employed currently who are supposed to report

at some point soon. So Blake Snell, you got to report. Jordan Montgomery, supposed to report at some point soon. So, Blake Snell, you got to report. Jordan Montgomery, you got to report one of these days, one of these weeks. You got to report pretty soon. Got to report. Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess we should report to our second segment of this podcast. Want to say anything else you want to cover before we bring all Don on here? I would only offer that it has been reported that the runner-up in the Corbin Burns sweepstakes,

at least the most proximate runner-up, because I'm sure that there are a number of teams that inquired and perhaps in a serious way about Corbin Burns over the winter, but that the poor San Francisco Giants seem like they have once again lost out. Knock me over with a feather. The Giants runner up.

Yeah. And I don't want to dwell on that because I feel like people are starting to get kind of mean about it. But they did do a trade with the Oakland Athletics, which is interesting because they don't trade across the bay all that often. often. And I wonder, Ben, I wonder if those San Francisco Giants are perhaps in the running for either Jordan Montgomery or Blake Snell. And I say that without any special inside information, only the fact that they traded Ross Stripling. And so I wonder if they are making room for a starter. This has been me speculating about the Giants. Well, now you've just raised Giants fans' hopes again,

if it's still possible to raise them, if they don't just come pre-dashed now, those dreams. But yeah, that would be suggestive of perhaps a prelude to something. Because they could probably use a Ross Stripling as much as the A's could certainly.

And hey, he's throwing a death ball now. So it's going to be new and improved former effectively wild guest Ross Stripling. Yeah. Although maybe they just really care about his friendship with Alex Wood and want him and his friend to be reunited in Oakland. That could also be a possibility. San Francisco is a beautiful city, and that ballpark is wonderful. It's going to be okay. You know, people will understand. All right. Well, we will take a quick break, and we will be right back with Don Kessinger,

16-year major leaguer, played from 1964 through 1979, six-time All-Star, two-time Gold Glover. He was more of a glove-first guy. He was certainly perceived to be light hitter and does not pretend otherwise on this engaging conversation that you are about to hear. Also in baseball, Don Kessinger is out with the Chicago White Sox. The player-manager resigned today, both as a player and as a manager. He's going to leave the club immediately, and Mike Lederman has more on Kessinger's sudden departure from Chicago. Don Kessinger has been an authentic Chicago hero for the last 15 years, as an all-star shortstop with the Cubs in the 60s and early 70s. And after a brief stint with the Cardinals, he came

back to Chicago in the White Sox in 1977 to add defense, offense, and of course, class. The new manager will be Tony La Russa, a former White Sox coach currently managing the Iowa AAA Sox farm team. Like Kessinger, he's a smart baseball man. Also like Don Kessinger, he's not a miracle worker. Well, we are joined now by former Chicago Cub, Chicago White Sox, St. Louis Cardinal, and of course, Ole Miss Rebel, Don Kessinger. Don, welcome to the show. Thank you. Appreciate you, Ben. Look forward to it. Well, I have been too, and it's hard to know where to start with someone who has had as long and interesting and varied a career in baseball as you. I guess I will start at the start. Now, many episodes ago,

this was on episode 1963, we talked about the first season of the Central Illinois Collegiate League. This is going way back. Were you a member of that league? Do I have my facts right here? That is correct. I played in Peoria in that league. Yeah, that was the first year of that league. And we were reading an article at the time about how the scouts there were pessimistic about how many players with major league potential there were. There was one quote, there's no more than there are fingers on one hand, if that many. And I guess you were one of them. So what do you remember about how you ended up in that league

and what the competition was like? Well, it was good. I mean, it was good for me. Actually, I was playing at Ole Miss at the time, and so it was during the summer, and I had actually, I think I was set to go. It was a long time ago, but I'm reaching back. I was really scheduled to go to maybe to one of the other leagues, and I had an illness that we went through a little bit,

and so it didn't turn out that was going to work out. But the Central Illinois League that year was in their first phases, and they were starting a little later, and so I was able, a couple of weeks later, I was able to go. And so I was thrilled to be able to go play there, and some great people and friendly, had everything. And the league was good. It was a good league. It probably had gotten better as

time went on, but it was a good competitive league and I think helped me. Yeah. Well, hundreds of major leaguers have gone through that league in the years since then. I think it now has merged with the prospect league and still exists in some form. I also wanted to ask you about when you were called up to the majors, because you did not get a lot of minor league time before you were just thrown right into the soup, right? 1964, you came up, I believe, after just 74 games, was it, in AA, right? And maybe that was more common then than it is now, perhaps, but I wonder whether you felt prepared at the time or whether that was rushed. I don't know whether there was more common then. It wasn't very common then, and so I'd

graduated from Ole Miss anyway, played my last year at Ole Miss. It was before the draft, one year before the draft started. So I wasn't actually, you know, you just kind of signed as, quote, unquote, I guess, free agent. So that's the way we had it done. We had a date that was set up with my parents and with my college coach, who was a great man. And there's those that were interested to come and had several ball clubs. And anyway, ended up with the Cubs. They sent me to AA to start. And I guess at that time, I didn't realize that was unusual, you know, to go straight

to AA. And but it was a blessing to me. I didn't realize that was unusual, you know, to go straight to double-A. But it was a blessing to me. I got to go to double-A, and the manager at their double-A ball club, which was Fort Worth, Texas, actually, was Alex Grimace, who was an awfully good shortstop himself. And so it was really good for me to have a shortstop that kind of took me under his wing for those however many games I played. And then when the season ended there or toward the end of the big league season, they called

me up and I didn't do much that last three or four weeks, but I certainly got a taste of it. Then got to go to spring training with the big league club the next year. And anyway, it was great for me. I know that the decision obviously worked out really well for you, but my understanding is that you were also something of a standout in other sports, including basketball, and may have been a pro prospect as a basketball player. I'm curious what went into the decision to choose baseball specifically. Well, I mean, I love basketball. I love to play both of them, and I was fortunate to be able to

play them both in college. And it's harder today to be able to do because those two sports overlap so much. But at that time, it wasn't quite as much an overlap, so you just kind of coaches had to help you work that out. But I just thought, I'm just being straightforward, I thought that baseball was a better career sport for me because I was kind of a skinny kid. Kind of, I was a skinny kid and basketball was pretty physical and I loved it. And actually I had a call from, well, it was at

that time the St. Louis Hawks and they said, you know, before their draft or whatever, said, now, you know, are you have any interest in playing basketball? And I said, well, I have interest in playing basketball, but I think the best sport for me is baseball at this point in time, best career sport. But I would throw an interesting thing in there, if you don't mind. I don't remember exactly. Maybe my third year in the big league or something like that.

exactly maybe my third year in the big league or something like that that's when the aba american basketball association came into existence and uh new orleans in that league was coached by a guy named babe mccarthy who who was the basketball coach at mississippi state and they had a very very good team and they hired him for that and so I'd played you know three years or so against Babe's teams so they came to see me in Chicago and did offer me and you know a contract to play to play both sports to play baseball and to play in that American basketball league and I really considered that because I knew Coach McCarthy, and he was a great guy and a great coach, and I really thought about it and thought,

and to be very candid, at that time was probably doubling my salary. Can't say that didn't have a factor in there. But anyway, I did really seriously consider that and thought I was going to do it. But the more people I talked to and even some of the veteran baseball players like Robin Roberts and a few others that were still playing and, you know, they just convinced, they didn't try to talk me out of anything. They just made some points that were very valid. And the only people they knew at the time and the only ones I knew that had played both baseball and basketball were pitchers. And I had never thought about that. But they pointed out that, you know, the pitchers actually, I don't mean this critically, but pitchers work every four or five days.

I don't mean as critically, but pitchers work every four or five days. But I would be playing every day in baseball and then trying to go to play basketball. And they just thought that physically it'd be very difficult. And I appreciated that input. And finally, I just said, this is what I'm going to try to do until I'm staying with baseball. It's funny that you mentioned that you were skinny, because from what I read, you would tend to get skinnier as the season went on. There's some truth in that, too. Yeah, I looked at your numbers, and it seemed like you tended to hit better

before the All-Star break than after. I don't know if that's because you were wearing down, but I read that you would sometimes lose, you know, 15, 20 pounds as the season went on. That is true. And I don't have the answer to that. You know, if I'd known that, you know, but I wasn't, you know, a strong kid. And so, but it did, it did wear on me. There's no doubt about that. You might just have to keep stuffing yourself, I guess, to keep the weight on as the season goes on.

have to keep stuffing yourself, I guess, to keep the weight on as the season goes on. Just going chronologically, in 1965, you played in Sandy Koufax's perfect game, September 9th, and you faced him a couple times. You flied out, you grounded out. Now you were due up again in the ninth. Sandy Koufax has struck out 12. He is two outs away from a perfect game. Here is Joe Amalfitano to pinch hit for Don Kessinger. And ultimately, you were pinch hit for by Joey Amalfitano, who ended up striking out. 0-2 to Amalfitano. The strike two pitch to Joe.

Fastball, swung on, and missed strike three. He is one out away from the promised land. I could have done that. Yeah, I was going to say, I wonder whether you thought that, you know, at that point. No, I was just happy in 1965

to be in the big league. And people, you know, always ask me, who's the best pitcher here for all this stuff? I can certainly say on that day, Sandy Koufax, he was a great pitcher every day. But on that day, he was perfect. Unbelievable. I wonder, though, when you know that your spot is due up again in the ninth and the guy has a perfect game going, do you want another crack at him?

Are you thinking, let me at him, I'll be the one to break it up? Or are you thinking, you know, maybe I'll give someone else a shot? Yeah, no, I don't think I would have ever said to somebody, why don't you just let somebody hit for me? But I wasn't surprised when it happened. And Joey was a good hitter and a great guy. So anyway, but the last, I don't know how closely you looked at that box score, but we had a pitcher named Bob Hindley, H-E-N-D-L-E-Y,

the left-hander that pitched that game. And I don't know if you looked at that box score closely enough to realize that on that night the Dodgers had one base runner. And we had none. And Lou Johnson kind of hit a ball in the end of the bat over the first baseman's head for a double. And he stole third, and our catcher made a bad throw, threw it in left field, and he scored. And that was the only base runner in that ballgame.

Unbelievable. Well, I'm sure that this was a perhaps more monumental aspect of that season to you than participating in that game. But I'm given to understand that toward the end of the 65 season, you decided you wanted to become a switch hitter. Is that right? Yeah, actually, that's correct. The entire story of that was, yes. Well, I needed to do something. I hit 200. Yes. I was going to ask what kind of went into that.

I kind of love being in the big leagues. I had to try to figure something out. So I asked one of our coaches, Alvin Dark, who was one of the Cubs coaches that year. And, again, another great shortstop I happen to be around. But I sat down by the Alvin Dark one time late in the 65 season. Last week, I guess, maybe even the 65 season. We were just sitting talking baseball and talking what Mike could do to improve my game.

And I asked, I said, Alvin, look, I'm not sure I couldn't switch it. I'd like to try to see if I can do it. He said, well, look, here's my suggestion to you. Don't say anything now. This season's over, and we're not going anywhere and all that. But he said, go back home in the winter. And I was living in Oxford at that time just in the off season and he said go back to Ole Miss get on with a tennis ball and have somebody throw to you hard up not to not

not right on top of you but have you know short distance shorter distance and he said and here's the reason because you've got to find out first if If you've never hit lifting, you've got to figure out if you can get out of the way of the ball if it comes at you. I hadn't given that much thought either, but that's what I did. I went back and, you know, working out and had somebody throw to me, and I felt like I was, you know know could make contact with it and all that and so but but I hadn't said anything to the organization until I went to spring training the next year and I did at that time bring it up to our beheading instructor and just said you know I've been working on this I'd like to just see what you think. And that was Leo Grocer's

first year. And everybody was a little bit not sure exactly how to handle Leo. And so he said, well, let me talk to Leo and see what he says about that. And anyway, he came back to me a few days later and said, well, they kind of want you to just stay right-handed and keep working on hitting the ball to right field and go the other way and all that stuff. I said, okay. So that's what I did. And in, like, May of that year, so a month into the season or whatever,

we were taking batting practice before a game. And Wrigley and Leo came up to me and said, I just heard yesterday you wanted to try to switch it. And I said, well, that's true. And he said, let me see you take a few swings. So I got back in the cage and did. And as long as Leo could probably do it, he said, heck, you swing better that way than the other way. He said, let's start working on that today. I said, okay.

By today, I don't think you mean in the game. He said, no, let's just work on it. And honestly, the next day, we were playing Houston.

We happened to have a, which for us was unusual at that time. We had a pretty big lead middle of the game. And Leo called me down to the dugout, down to his end of the dugout, and said, look, why don't we try, why don't you go ahead, why don't you hit left-hand next time? And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness gracious, I hope they know I'm serious about this

and not trying to show somebody up. But anyway, I did. I went up and hit, and fortunately, I got the biggest bat. And Leo suggested that. Get the biggest bats you can find and just try to make contact with the ball. Don't worry about bat speed. And I hit a line drive to the shortstop, I think. I think I hit a line drive right at the shortstop. I thought, oh, that's pretty good, even if I'm out.

So it actually worked so well that I did, oh, my average was about 230 at that time or something, and it went down to like 195 because it just wasn't working real good. So after a game, I said, Leo, what do you think? Think all the way to next spring to work on this again? He said, no, no, no, no.

We're not going anywhere with this team this year. So you just keep working on it. I said, okay. So I hit a little over 300 the last half of that year. That was it. I mean, I've been a switch hitter ever since. It's just so funny to think about how things have changed but sort of stayed the same, right?

That you just went to a gym in the offseason. I'm sure much lower tech than what players are dealing with today, but not so different in that regard, although I don't know how many of them are trying to become switch hitters on the fly at the big league level during the season. It wasn't what I anticipated, but fortunately they stayed with me although I don't know how many of them are trying to become switch hitters on the fly at the big league level during the season. It wasn't what I anticipated, but fortunately they stayed with me and it turned out to be a great thing for me. Was it your basketball experience that gave you the thought that you could do that? You know, I've been asked that several times, but I never gave that any thought at that time, that basketball had something to do with it.

But I can't tell you it didn't either. I don't know. But I knew it felt pretty natural. I didn't have trouble making contact with it, and that was the big deal. And, of course, as years go on, you get more confident in everything you're doing. But it sure made a difference in my career. So I looked up how quick that Koufax Perfect game was. It was one hour, 43 minutes,

which is faster than even the fastest pitch clock game goes nowadays. And there were, of course, a lot of low-scoring games back then, a lot of 1-0 games. That was sort of the second dead ball era. And that's what I wanted to ask about, because just in time for you to make the majors, really, they decided that the strike zone was going to go shoulders to knees. And I wonder how you compensated for that. How do you made contact having to protect that much real estate?

Well, you know, you know, it's just like when the rules change today. You know, it's just like when the rules changed today. I mean, when they put the timer or the clock on the pitchers and the hitter and all, it was an adjustment that they had to make, but they did it. They made it. They made the adjustment, and it was the same way with that. I mean, right before that, they had lowered the mound because Bob Gibson had done so well in the World Series and all, and they lowered the mound several inches. But it was an adjustment for the pitchers, an adjustment for the hitters.

But, you know, there wasn't a big deal made of it. You just have to do it if you want to play in big leagues. I had some adjustments, but, you know, so what? Well, a little bit later on, I wanted to ask you about this because it pertains to making contact, which, as you said, was a strength of yours. So I looked up numbers against Nolan Ryan. You faced him many times, 43 times, actually. And I looked up. So there were 160 hitters who faced Nolan Ryan at least 40 times.

And of all of those guys, you had the second lowest strikeout rate against him of anyone. The only guy who faced him that many times who had a lower strikeout rate was Harold Reynolds. And he struck out twice in 44 plate appearances. You struck out twice in 43 plate appearances. You struck out twice in 43 plate appearances. So it was basically the same. What was your secret to making contact against the Ryan Express? Well, you know, there's no secret to it, really. You had to be ready.

You had to be ready to hit a fastball, even though he had a great breaking ball. You had to expect to be able to have to hit a fastball, even though he had a great breaking ball. He had to expect to be able to have to hit his fastball. Then it's just a matter of focus and getting it out, just keep getting it out there. So I don't have any secrets to that except that I knew Nolan Ryan. I mean, you know, those guys like that didn't want to walk Don Kessinger. They were going at him. And so I was just trying to put it in play.

You mentioned that in the beginning, no one was quite sure how to approach or deal with Leo DeRocher. You obviously were managed by him for a long time and wonder if you can share any stories of your time with him. Well, you know, I couldn't play seven and a half years without Leo having some stories. But the dead honest truth is, when Leo came to us, and he had been managing a long time, but he really, really was a baseball man.

I mean, the first several years that we played for Leo, he seemed to always be an inning or so ahead of what was going to take place in the game, and he was ready for it. And let me say this. Leo Drusher, whether I was hitting good, not hitting good, he thought I was the shortstop that was going to play for the Cubs for a while, and I played every day. And so, you know, what more can you ask of a manager than to do that? Now, you know, he wasn't the easiest guy to play for,

not because he was a tough guy. He kind of let you play your game and all, but he was, you know, you knew you had to be on your P's and Q's and play the game. And so I give him so much credit for putting me out there and playing. He was, 1966 was the first year. And, you know, I was fortunate by 1968 I I played in my first All-Star game. So, you know, he felt like I was the right guy and he put me out there. Why we're asking about famous pitchers that you faced many times.

You faced Phil Necro many times. You faced Steve Carlton many times. You faced Tom Seaver many times. You had a tough time with those guys, as most people did for the most part. But the pitcher you faced more than anyone else was Bob Gibson 150 times. And you batted 326 against Bob Gibson with a 389 on base percentage. So I asked your secret against Nolan Ryan. What's the secret against Bob Gibson? Well, I was aware, not at the time, but after I've been out of baseball and, you know,

I've looked up some of that stuff, and I was shocked to see that my average against Bob Gibson was that, although I knew I'd been fortunate against him sometimes. But again, against Bob Gibson, I was everything hard. I was looking for everything hard. And that may even be a curveball, but it was a hard curveball. You know, it wasn't, he wasn't trying to trick you. He wasn't trying to worry about the changeup and all that, which frankly is, if he had had a changeup, it wouldn't have been legal. But, but, but I did, I did have some luck against him. Of course, I would never have wanted Bob Gibson to

know that. Right. Yes. Yeah. He wasn't as much of a headhunter as he's reputed to be, but he never hit you with a pitch. Well, not intentionally, but he did pitch hitters in. nobody's perfect, so a ball doesn't always go exactly where you want it. And, you know, Steve Carlton's another one of those you're talking about, a great pitcher. I don't know that I had

a great average against him, but I had one day against him. The six-hit game. Yeah, I had six hits, yeah. Yeah. And I told my wife when I left home that day going to the ballpark, I said, Carol, this might be a good day to have a day off. I haven't battled for three years against Steve Carlton.

He said, well, you know, one of those deals. Well, tell him you need the day off. I said, Carol, I'm not telling Leo DeRocher I need a day off. I might get a career off. By the fourth hit, and I told her, I said, I'm kind of tired today. Anyway, that's why you go play the game every day and play it hard as you can because you don't know whether you're going to have a good day or a bad day. You can feel great and go 0 for 6, or you can think you're tired.

But by the fourth base hit, I felt great. I didn't know I was tired. Yeah. And, of course, you were known for your defense, and you made errors early in your career. But as you understood, that's maybe in part because you were getting to so many balls and having so many balls and having so many chances and getting so many assists. No, I was going to say, you know, I always use, I guess I

use that as a good excuse. I always felt like I made some errors because I tried to get everything I could get to and tried to get the out. I was, I was, you know, I was really conscious of wanting to lead the league and assist. I thought if I could get more assist than anybody else, I'm helping our team. I'm getting people out. Maybe I'll make a few more errors. So I did put a lot of faith in being able to get the balls. And one way that you got to them, your signature patented move was the jump throw, right, where you'd go to your right and Fergie Jenkins called it the down pat.

But that sounds to me like Derek Jeter's signature move. So it seems to me like you did it first. That's the Don Kessinger, not the Derek Jeter. He was the same type way that I did it. I had my first couple years, I made too many errors. And I was trying to figure out the best way for me to make that play in the hole. Because it doesn't matter what the book says, you've got to be able to make the ball get to first place

for the runners. So you mentioned Joel Malfitano. He was one of our coaches at that time. And Joey had me out. We were out early one day where I could take a lot of them before batting practice started. And so I could take a lot of ground balls without dodging batting practice and all those balls. And I was trying to figure out how to do the play in the hole. And they used a stopwatch.

Joey did, or Joey was hitting me the ground balls. I don't know exactly who else was out there. But he was hitting balls in the hole. And I tried to do that every way I could. You catch the ball on your left foot, plant your right foot and throw. From the time it hit my glove until it got to the first baseman, they'd time that and look at it. I don't remember what the numbers were.

But then I'd try it another way. I'd get it and throw it on the run. Or I'd get it and jump. Each time, and it was very clear that for me, my best time was when I caught the ball and either threw it on the run or jumped and threw it to first base. And I didn't have as much on it, but I got rid of the ball quicker. And I was fortunately, and maybe basketball helped this, I don't know, I was accurate with it to first base.

And so once you know the way you do it best and get it there the fastest, then you work at that. You do it that way, you work on it every day, but you know you're doing it the right way for you. And so that's the way it was. I have one comment and one question about those Cubs teams. The comment is that I've read that you've said that you'll go to the grave thinking that the 69 Cubs were better than the 69 Mets. And I just want to say that I think there's some support for that statement. I know that the Mets ultimately won more games, but you look at the run differential, the 69 Cubs were better at outscoring their opponents than the 69 Mets, which ultimately didn't matter that much.

But the underlying numbers are there, I think, to support your statement there. As time's gone on, I have nothing to back it up, really, except that we thought, we thought, we really did. We had great confidence in that team. We thought, we really did. We had great confidence in that team. We thought from that spring training till the day that we weren't leading the league that we were going to win. And we really, we all thought we were going to win. And, you know, it didn't work out.

But it wasn't a lack of confidence. It wasn't pressure. It just didn't work out right. Yeah. And of course, that great Cubs core that you played with for so many years, the so-called million-dollar infield, you, in the end, were really the last man standing from that team because Ernie Banks and Billy Williams and Ron Santo and Glenn Beckert and everyone else retired or was traded before you were. And I wonder what it was like to be the last link, you know, after playing with those guys for so long.

Yeah, I had my friends, you know, that were gone. Yeah. And it was, I won't say a source of pride, but it was, I felt great about the fact that they still had me there, even though I knew that my time was probably coming. Because when you start making those changes, it gets everybody at some point in time. And, you know, it's funny. They did call us the million-dollar infield, or somebody did. And Becker came up to him and he said, hey, Cass, you know, all this million-dollar infield stuff. There's about 800,000 of it on the corners.

Right, yeah. Santo and Ernie Banks, I guess, are maybe making more than the double play combo, but yeah. Yeah. And I said, Beck, just don't tell anybody. There we go. Glenn, watching the first half, do you notice any real big weaknesses on the field or any strong points that we have? Well, no, Ernie.

It's just what's making our club this year. There's no one or two individuals involved. It's a 25-member team, and it seems like every day there's a new hero on the field. And the encouragement that the other fellows give is just great. If we can continue just to have as good as we did the first half, we'll walk away with the lead. Donnie, making those double plays, you're certainly doing a tremendous job.

You and Glenn really can make that play and certainly has given the pitching staff a big lift. You know the hitters a lot better this year, and you're playing in the right spots and making the plays out there. What has been the big difference this year? Well, Ernie, I'd, one thing is our pitching staff. They make it a lot easier. You know, you used to play short, and it's a lot easier on an infielder

when they tell you they're going to do a certain thing to a hitter, and then they go out there and they do it. You know how to play the hitters, and they've told us how they're going to pitch these guys, and they've gone out and they've pitched them that way, and so far we've been in the right spot. I just hope that can continue. Well, I know that after Chicago you had some time with St. Louis and then were traded to the

White Sox. And I wanted to ask you, there's so much about your career that is interesting, as Ben noted, but you hold the distinction of being the last American League player manager. And I wonder, first of all, what your thoughts were when Bill Vack came to you and told you, hey, you're going to manage the White Sox, and then what that process was like trying to play both roles, because I can imagine it would be difficult for you as a player trying to, you know, do what you need to to contribute, but then also being in sort of an odd position when it comes to your teammates and trying to tell them what to go do and where they're going to be in the lineup every day. I wasn't sure Bill wasn't teasing. He called me up to his office in the 1979, 1978 season,

last week or two of the season. Anyway, he called me in and he asked me, he said, have you ever thought about managing? And I very frankly said, yeah, I guess anybody's played as many years as I have. You've thought about it, but I don't think I want to. And he said, no, really, Bill. He said, I want to talk to you about the White Sox. And I said, Bill, we've got a manager,

and I've signed a contract for next year to play for the White Sox. And, you know, we have a manager, and I think he deserves a right to go through spring training next year. It was Larry Doby. And he just told me, I said, so I'm just not going to have this conversation right now. And he said, okay, I respect that. And I respected Bill for that, you know.

And so we went on and played the rest of the year. And when the season was over again, he called me the day or so after the season. And he just said, I don't have a manager now. Will you talk to me? I said, well, yeah, I will. I said, well, yeah, I will. And he said, well, meet me in Sarasota, Florida, where he was down with a Winter League deal going on. So I did. I went down and I met with him.

We talked and all. And, you know, he just wanted me to do it, and I did it. But it's very difficult. There's a good reason there aren't many player managers. There's so many things that come up you know is going to come up, but it's not real until it's real. I'll give you a quick example. If I'm playing shortstop, which I did some, and if I started to go into the mound to talk to our pitcher,

the umpire would stop me. And he said, hey Don, are you going in there as a player or as a manager? Because if you go in there as a manager too many times, you've got to take him out. Well, you could just say player.

Yeah, well, I said this laughably, I said, look, here's the deal. I'm going up to the mound. You go with me. And you decide what's coming as a player or man. And that's the truth. That's what we did. So, you know, there's that.

Then there's the deal where you're, if I'm hitting, if I'm hitting, and we've got a man on base, if I want to tell him I'm bunting or that we're going to hit and run, you know, you've got to figure out I can't put the bat down and go through signs. So, you know, you just have to work around things like that. your mind is constantly

right up there and shortstop should we have a pitcher warming up down there. And, too, another thing with me, my pitching coach was a guy named Fred Martin who had been in the Cubs organization my whole time as a pitching coach, sometimes of the Roving minor league, but a good pitching coach and really good. And so I hired him as our pitching coach. And in spring training that year, in spring training,

he found he had cancer and bad. And so I lost my pitching coach. We didn't have a pitching coach. Well, we activated Ron Shuleruler and he became the pitching coach so you had a rookie manager you had a rookie pitching coach we had now we had bobby winkle who was great absolutely great baseball guy and joe sparks was the other coach and you know we didn't have that as many as quite as many coaches as I have today. But anyway, but it was very difficult,

a learning experience for me and a learning experience for Ron Schuer, who did a good job. But I'm just saying, you know, we didn't have Fred. And so it was difficult. But, you know what? I was blessed to be able to have that opportunity to do that. And I'll never, ever forget the experiences of doing it and all that.

So Winkles and them kept telling me, Don, you need to play more. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, because, I mean, you were the last to do it in the American League. You know, Pete Rose did it after you in the National League. Of course, he was going to put himself in the lineup because he wanted to break Ty Cobb's record. But there's a little bit of a difference in personalities, too. And I'm not being critical of anybody, and that may be me, but my personality was difficult to me to put my name in the lineup as often as maybe I should have because you never wanted somebody to think

you were putting your name in the lineup just to put your name in the lineup because you want to play. And you've got other guys that are working their tail off trying to get ready to play too. And so it was a little bit difficult for me, and that's one of the reasons I just wasn't going to do it again. And so anyway, it was interesting. But like I said, there's good reasons why not many people do that.

Well, and all of those are ones that I imagine probably occurred to you as potential issues, at least. But I can't imagine that you expected to manage the night of a riot because you were the one managing the White Sox during the infamous disco demolition night. And so I don't think we could let you off without asking your memories from that night and wondering when it occurred to you that you might need to lock your players in the locker room to keep them out of the fray. Honestly, that wasn't a hard decision because it was bad. You know, there's about 50,000 people there, and at least 25,000 of them were there to watch a ball game, and 25,000 were there to do disco demolition.

And, I mean, the air was foul. I'm being honest. There was a lot of stuff in the air. And they were chanting, you know, disco sucks, disco sucks. It was really a bad year. I mean, there wasn't any doubt in our mind. We had a problem. Yeah.

So it was going to be between games of the doubleheader. They were going to take all these disco records, and that's DJ named Steve Dahl, who I guess maybe none of us knew how popular he was because he was to come out and blow those records up between games. I was sitting in the dugout thinking, Steve, I don't know you, but please don't stir them up. Just do what you're going to do because they're stirred up now.

them up just yeah do what you're gonna do and because they're stirred up now you know and uh he came out from center field with a microphone out in center field no disco records all there and he came out through a gate out in center field in full battle fatigue and i said oh me you know and he he really did throw him up hey listen this is now officially the world's largest anti-disco rally this is going to be all over the newspapers all over the television all over radio all over radio, all over the city, all over the country. And everybody's going to know us rock and rollers here in Chicago think disco sucks. Disco sucks. Disco sucks.

Disco sucks. Disco sucks. Disco sucks. I mean, he started doing disco, and all of a sudden they're coming out of the stands, out on the field. So I told the team, let's go, let's go, we're going to the locker room. We locked the door and went down the tunnel there and locked the door. And they called me from up after a while, a good while.

They called me down and called down to the locker room, and one of the administrators up there said, Don, the umpires want to see you and Bill Beck. And I said, well, where's Bill? And because I assumed he was upstairs, you know. I said, where's Bill? And they said, he's out at second base with a microphone.

And I said, okay, I'll go get him. You know, I went out there and ran out there to Bill and said, Bill, I'm powerful and he said, we're not forfeiting this game. And I said, well, they say they're not going to forfeit the game.

So we went in and that's what they told Bill, we don't want to forfeit the game. We're not're not going to forfeit the game. So we went in, and that's what they told Bill. We don't want to forfeit the game. We're not going to make you forfeit this game, but we can't play it tonight. We can't play the second game. We're going to have to reschedule it. And Bill said, no, we're going to have the field ready. We'll have the field ready. I said, well, we'll see.

It's quite a night. We had Mike Vec on the show. It was his idea, of course. We talked to him a little bit about it. And of course, you know, I just love Bill Vec, one of my favorite characters in baseball history. So it must have been quite a treat to be around him at that point. Yeah, it was amazing. He's a brilliant man, seriously. He's a brilliant man. Yeah. And he loved baseball. And I don't think he ever intended to do anything to harm baseball,

but he really did have a real conviction that it was his job to entertain the people until the game started. So he had a lot of stories. He had a lot of interesting things. And I loved him. I just loved him, man. Yeah. One more thing I wanted to mention is that the man who replaced you as manager,

of course, was Tony LaRusso. So, you know, you had to get out of the way, let the Hall of Famer come through. And the last thing that we want to ask you about, I think, is that you are the patriarch of a three-generation Major League Baseball family. Your grandson, Gray, made the majors with the Astros just last season. Of course, both of your sons played ball. And, you know, I wonder what that is like for you to see first your son gets a cup of coffee and then to see Gray make it. I don't know whether you got a chance to see him play in person or not, but what was the feeling when you saw that? Yeah, oh, it was a thrill. It was just a real thrill. I got to watch, of course, my son playing.

Both boys playing at Ole Miss. And then Keith had a cup of coffee, as you say, with Cincinnati. And then Gray, we got to watch Gray play at Ole Miss since we lived down here. And he was an Ole Miss player. He was a great player. And then last year when he got called up, Carolyn and I went to Houston twice last year and spent a week each time, and it was just great. It was really difficult to do what he had to do.

He was playing really well in AAA, and they called him up. And after that, you know, he was the second utility infielder. And you just don't get – when you've got an infield like Houston had, you don't get second infield chances. And Dubon, who was their utility guy last year, had a great year. Had a great year. But he stayed. You know, he stayed the whole year.

And we just hope he has a good spring this year. Kessinger called up at the beginning of this road trip in Toronto. Astros maneuvering their roster and sending Cesar Salazar down at the beginning of the trip and now Salazar back in in the same lineup as Kissinger today where he started at third in Toronto starting at short today as a one one count here little

chopper off the plate could be tough for Arias tries to bear hand there is the first major league hit for Greg Kissinger the grandson of Don Kissinger who at nineteen hundred and 1931 career hits, picks up his first major league hit. Now, we talked about

all the great pitchers and the hard throwers you faced. How do you think the stuff Gray is facing now compares to what you were seeing back in the 60s and 70s? Well, I don't know. You know, there wasn't as much

at that time with talking about 95, 98, 90. I don't know how I'd compare them. I do know that we had a lot of guys that threw really hard. And I know there were two different guns when they were playing, a Juggs gun and a Ray gun. And the Juggs gun was about three or four miles per hour faster than the Ray gun. And so, you know, I don't know. I think I would have to tell you, I think that when we were playing, I mean, those guys, When we were playing, I mean, those guys, you know, the Gibsons and the Seavers,

you know, they had to be in the 90s, 93 or 94, and maybe more. I don't know, Nolan Ryan and Jim Maloney. They're just, I can say this, if they were throwing five or six miles per hour harder than the guys we were facing, I don't want to play. Yeah, well, it's the new generation of Kessingers. That's his problem now to deal with that. Greg called me one time in his first spring training. He went to, he called me and he said, he called me Pop. He said, hey, Pop, have you ever seen 102-mile-an-hour fastball?

I said, hey, I probably have, but I'm glad I didn't know it. You know, it wasn't up on the scoreboard showing you what it was. Yeah. I think he had just faced DeGrom or somebody. Oh, yeah. That day. That's no fun, yeah. So anyway, yeah, we have a good time, though.

But he feels good. We'll see. Yeah. Well, we always wonder when major leaguers' sons, grandsons make the majors, whether it's nature or nurture, right? Is it the genes? Is it the Kessinger bloodline? Or is it the instruction? Is it growing up around the game? It's probably a bit of both, but what would you attribute it to? growing up around the game?

It's probably a bit of both, but what would you attribute it to? Well, I mean, I think it's God-given, really, to have good hands and that type thing. But there's no question that Graves had some really good coaching and had some good time. And he worked hard. He worked really hard. And so, you know, I can't tell you. I know that the players today are bigger and faster and stronger.

You know, I know that. And so there's no reason to even act like that isn't true. But I think the great players when I was playing, not talking about me, but the great players when I was playing would certainly be able to play today. I don't think there'd be any doubt about that. Cray's a little bit bigger than you were. Yeah, yeah. But you know what?

If I'd come along today, I would have done the same things they're doing. I would have worked out in the winter, and I think I would have been stronger. I was going to do everything I knew to do, but I didn't know to do that. They used to tell you don't get tied up doing too much and all this stuff. But, no, I think the guys today are fortunate to be able to do that and to have the opportunities to have facilities where they can do all that. Yeah. That's great.

Yeah. Well, this was such a pleasure. I know Bill Veck put on a Don Kessinger night for you in 78. So this is our Don Kessinger day. We got to enjoy some of your stories. And thank you so much for being so generous with your time and reminiscing a little. This was a great pleasure. Yeah, thanks so much.

Ben, you and Meg, I appreciate the opportunity. If you ought to let me just have a little fun with you today. And God bless you all and good luck to you, man. Well, that was just a joy. I'm grateful to Don for doing it and to listener Kevin for putting us in touch. If you live next door to an 80 or 90 something year old baseball player who might want to come on the podcast, please let us know. There were of course a million more things that I could have asked Don or a million more players I could have asked him about. I really am struck by those six all-star

appearances though. That sounds like a lot for a guy who had a 73 career OPS plus and never had a single season of even a 90 OPS plus. So the fact that he made six All-Star teams speaks to how well he was regarded at the time. At least the first few of those selections preceded fan voting. So players, his peers, were voting him onto those teams. 1969, his best overall season, he started for the NL All-Stars batting second just ahead of Henry Aaron and Willie McCovey and his teammate Ron Sano. Of course, number two hitters those days were sort of slappy, but I believe the National League won five of the six years he was selected to the team. He played a lot of games, was regarded as a great glove, clearly a delightful fellow,

and maybe there was a halo effect of being in that infield. So many other Cubs making all-star teams at that time. I did stat head this. Hey, I had to. And he does have the second lowest career war of any player selected to that many all-star games. The lowest belongs to Bobby Richardson. Maybe a similar story on some star-studded Yankees teams. But we could look at that and say that a player with Don Kessinger's stats probably would not be selected to six All-Star teams today. And yet, I think that tells us a lot about how he was perceived by his contemporaries. Gonna be pulling for Gray Kessinger now. Hope he makes his pop proud.

There are some minor news items and signings that we didn't get to today. Maybe we'll circle back to them next week, but a few follow-ups for you. One, the Mets signed Jake Diekman to a $4 million one-year deal with a vesting option, and that might not sound like a lot of money were testing the contention and perception that the Rays improve pitchers, and we thought this would be a great test of that. If even the White Sox did not want Jake Diekman as poorly as he had pitched for them, could the Rays turn even him into a valuable reliever? And so on episode 2005, we each predicted the FIP that we thought he would have with the Rays. He had been at 5.9 with the White Sox. His fan graphs depth chart projection at the time was 4.53. And we both took the under, but we didn't take the under by

that much. Meg said 4.25. I said four. And wouldn't you know it, he and the Rays did it again. Not sure we ever returned to this at the end of the season when the FIP was final, but it was 3.21. Solid. Not Robert Stevenson good, but good enough for Diekmann to get himself another major league deal. Never underestimate the Rays. I went back and listened to that episode, and I said, really, my guess is that he won't last long enough for us to figure it out. I thought he might not stick around.

It would be too small a sample to be meaningful. Turned out he pitched 50 games for the Rays, 45 and a third innings pitched. He exceeded our expectations. Another follow-up on episode 2115, we talked about the Dodgers' James Paxton signing. And I was kind of questioning, what does it even mean to sign James Paxton? Can you count on James Paxton pitching for you? Can that rotation spot really be considered filled? And at the time, it had been reported as an $11 million guarantee. In the end, it turned out to be just $7 million because, as Ken Rosenthal reported, some sort of health concern popped up.

Whatever it was wasn't bad enough for the Dodgers to walk away, but was bad enough for them to lop off $4 million. There are also bonuses he can earn for making the opening day roster and for making at least 18 starts, which sort of tells you how confident the Dodgers feel about the work they will get from him. Figured I'd mention it just sort of speaks to what I was saying on that episode. I wish him well because as Alex Cora said, he's been through so much. And final follow-up on episode 2113, we answered a listener email hypothetical about whether Ken Rosenthal and Jeff Passan might secretly be not newsbreakers, but newsmakers scripting all of the events of Major League Baseball. Patreon supporter Raymond

pointed out in our Discord group, maybe that's why whenever one of those guys tweets something, people will inevitably reply, announce Snell, announce Bellinger, announce Montgomery, as if they could command them to report news. Would all make sense now? If they're scripting those signings, then of course they could announce them whenever report news. Well, it all makes sense now. If they're scripting those signings, then of course they could announce them whenever they want. So the people who reply to those tweets, they've been in on this the whole time. Those were the follow-ups.

This is the tease. If anyone's been wondering whether we will be doing the team preview series again this year, we will. And if anyone's been wondering when it will start, very soon. Next week, in fact. We just realized we got to get going on that

if we want to be finished before opening day. So we will be starting our traditional two-team-per-podcast preview series. Same format as last year, two preview pods per week. Now we just got to get Montgomery and Snellinger to sign before it's time to preview the teams they wind up playing for. If you're happy to hear that we will be embarking on our season preview journey once more,

why not toss us some Patreon support, which you can do by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad-free and get themselves access to some perks. Mackenzie Horn, Alex Eichler, Alec Lee, Laura Brown, and Evan Rice. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only,

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Sam's in his garage bed with a reverb at 20 in his menage. And after 2,000 episodes, we got more inside jokes than Carrot Top's prop box before he got yoked. Lab League, Banging Ski, Planted Trees and Trampolines, Minor League Free Agent Drafts, Stat Blasts and Pass Blasts, Minimum Inning, Hall of Fame Donation Shaming, Tyler Wade and Taylor Ward, The Rot Slog to Rigor Mortis. Answer a couple of emails. Do a play index.

Call Ned Garver, Eddie Robinson, Johnny O'Brien, Ron Teasley, Charlie Maxwell, Bobby Shant.