Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2282: Season Preview Series: Twins and Tigers

Episode Date: February 12, 2025

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about Rob Manfred’s Super Bowl cameo, the return of not-terrible uniforms, a new finding in the “familiarity vs. fatigue” debate about the times through the order effect, two more Dodgers signings, and an intriguingly timed alteration to the criteria for two-way-player classification. Then they preview the 2025 Minnesota Twins […]

More than 2,000 episodes retrospectively filed, and at each new one we still collectively smile. That's Effectively Wild. That's Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2282 of Effectively Wild. The Fangrass baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Magralia Fangrass and I am joined by Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer. Ben, how are you?

Excited for our AL Central twofer today. Oh baby. Let's go. Yeah. If you count our last preview of last week, which was the Kansas City Royals, we've had three consecutive AL Central season previews, just given the people what they want here on Effectively Wild. I'm just here to say that like, you know, mid-sized cities in the Midwest, large cities

in the Midwest for that matter, they've got a lot to recommend them, Ben. You know, I've eaten good food, I've stayed in nice places, I've met kind people. I'm happy to spend this time in the Midwest, although my understanding is that it is very cold up there right now, so it's everyone suffering through frigid conditions. Spring, it's around the corner. It's the baseball for you to dream on. Let's go. CB Yeah.

So we're talking today about the Twins and the Tigers. And these are two teams in fairly similar positions in terms of standings last year, though very important distinction between where they finished last year, but in the grand scheme of things, fairly close and projections-wise and payroll-wise very close together,

and in fact adjacent, I believe, according to the roster resource payroll breakdown, alphabetically adjacent too, and somewhat similar in prospect rankings, farm system rankings, so a lot of similarities. And so we will have somewhat similar preview guests in that they are colleagues at The Athletic and podcasters about their respective teams.

So Erin Gleeman will be back with us to talk twins followed by Cody Stevenhagen on the Tigers. So we'll get to that in just a moment. Couple things before we do, I assume you were watching the Super Bowl. I did watch the Super Bowl. As was I. Go birds.

And so probably if you were paying close attention, you may have spotted MLB commissioner Rob Manfred. I did, yeah. close attention, you may have spotted MLB commissioner Rob Manfred on camera who kind of, I don't want to say he photobombed, like he was entitled to his position in that suite. But the Hollywood reporter tweets with the little clip from the broadcast puts it like this, Paul McCartney, Adam Sandler, Paul Rudd, Kevin Costner, and Pete Davidson spotted at hashtag Superbowl does not mention one other man who was spotted in that same suite, in the same row as Mr. McCartney and others.

Lauren Ruffin But you know, to the credit of The Hollywood Reporter, the broadcast did not mention old Robbie Guy. Like he went unnamed on that broadcast. He was like, hey, there's Rob Manfred. And they talked about the FIFA guy who's like, probably facing charges somewhere based on how corruption seems to work in that organization. She said in a way that can in no way be interpreted as defamatory. Just wondering out loud if the corrupt soccer organization has crept problems, you know? Like It just seems like they go hand

in hand. So he got noted on the broadcast, but Rob, no, not a... What do you think that Kevin Costner and Pete Davidson talked about? I don't know, but I- They talked a lot. They were like in conversation. Yeah, a different conversation. Yeah, it was not like, oh, hey, I like Yellowstone, huh? Yeah. You dating anyone?

Like, no weird amount about that. They were like, cashing it out. Like, is he gonna be in the Sheridan verse? Casting him for, yeah, Horizon in American Saga, part four. Perhaps there's a part for Pete in that epic, if that ever gets made. Is he making four of those? In theory.

My God, oh Lord. They've done well on streaming, not so much at the box office. Sure, okay. Anyway, it was very amusing. I don't blame the Hollywood Reporter for not mentioning Rob Manfred because he's not really on their beat. They're reporting on Hollywood and we are reporting on baseball.

And so of course, you know, Paul McCartney may be my favorite human being on earth, but of course, I immediately said, hey, there's Rob Manfred. And in that brief clip, which maybe is not representative of the entire spectator experience at the Super Bowl, it was exactly the way that you'd think it would be where it was like all the big name marquee celebrities were kind of like clustered together talking and chatting and laughing. And then Rob Manfred was kind of like over in the corner, not talking to anyone in his like button down shirt, unbuttoned, no tie.

He was kind of like looking over at the brighter stars. Look, I'm sure people were talking to Rob and he was talking to people when the cameras weren't on him. But at that moment, it was exactly like the wattage was so brilliant in that suite that he was, Manfred was washed out of the image really. He was kind of like the Nathan Fielder having the time of my life with a bunch of friends. They're all just out of frame laughing too. But the friends were like Kevin Costner and

Paul McCartney and Paul Rudd, multiple Pauls. And then Rob Manfred was also there. LS. Yeah. We don't have to sit and talk about the Superbowl for all that long. Cause the people who are rooting for Kansas city are sad. And, um, I am like, uh, Philly vibes adjacent because of Bryn Mawr, but I don't feel entitled to the energy of an Eagles fan in part cause it terrifies me. You know, it's like, once you touch the monolith, your entire life is different. I will say again, for the sake of, the sake of posterity, go birds. But it is interesting to see like the split because there are clearly celebrities there

who are like there to be with in the orbit of the Superbowl as a cultural event, right? To be on TV and then have the Hollywood reporter put an item in and say like, Oh, you know, Pete Davidson and Kevin Costner, what did those crazy kids get up to? What are they talking about? And then there are the people who were there because they want to watch these particular teams participate in the Superbowl. And I do wonder if there is consideration given to that difference in the seating, because like, you know,

people might not have known that Anne Hathaway is an Eagles fan, but like Anne Hathaway is an Eagles fan. So refined for an Eagles fan. What amazing to bring the theater kid energy to, I, this is a pro Anne Hathaway podcast, just to be clear. This is not a criticism of Anne. Okay. I'm glad we've done the redemption arc while we can still enjoy her. What was that all about everyone? So rude. Anyway, like she's there because she wants to watch the Eagles mess up Patrick Mahomes' night and she got her wish, right? Like Bradley Cooper had his entire personality changed by filming Silver Linings playbook and like, it seems

like a very sincere Eagles fan. I don't think this is like a front, this is an affect. He cares about it. Like he was there, you know, he announced them coming out of the tunnel, right? Like he's, he's there to see them. And it's like, if, if that's the energy, that's a vibe I wouldn't want to bring around Paul McCartney, right? I wouldn't want Paul to see me like that. Like I wouldn't want Paul to see me watching a Seahawks Super Bowl because like, I shouldn't be held responsible for how I behave in those moments. to see me watching a Seahawks Super Bowl because like I shouldn't be held responsible for how I behave in those moments. Like as feral, you become a weird gremlin. You're like eating your hair.

When the Seahawks, we don't talk about the other, um, more recent adventure into Super Bowling that the Seahawks had, but like when they won the Super Bowl, I was in grad school and all of my friends were sports fans, but I was the only Seahawks fans there. And I don't know if people remember this quite right, but Seattle destroyed the Denver Broncos and Peyton Manning's legacy in the process.

And I was like, you remember in 101 Dalmatians where like the puppy gets closer and closer to the TV until the, the, the, one of the parent dogs like pulls him back and is like, oh, little buddy. I was like that. I was just inching closer and closer to the television because other people were doing other things, like enjoying the being in the orbit of the Super Bowl. And I needed to be locked on to the end to make sure nothing fishy happened. So anyway, I just wondered about that as I was watching. I was like, if I were Ann, I'd be like, I'll say hi to Paul at halftime,

but then I need to go be in my Gremlin place, please. She looked beautiful, so Gremlin might not be the right word, but that was the energy. And I, you know, theater kid energy and sports fan energy, they're not that different. They're adjacent energies. We don't talk enough about that. The manifestation is different, but at times, similar amounts of singing, really.

Anyway. Yes, and both can be unhinged in their own special ways. So good for Rob representing baseball on the biggest stage and celebrating the week that pitchers and catchers report. And also good for Rob and good for you and all right-thinking baseball fans out there, is that the uniforms are back to normal, it seems like. So players are getting to spring training, the athletic just canvassed some of the players and got their takes on the new uniforms, which are essentially the old uniforms. They're back to normal, larger letters on the back,

heavier fabric, pants tailored to players' preferences, road grays that are the right color and match top and bottom and don't get sweaty in a very awkward way. I'll believe that when I see it, but I'm encouraged by the prospects, yeah. Yes, and we'll see about the opacity and transparency of the pants.

Photo day we'll be telling when it arrives. We will see, Rob. We will see. Yes. But it does sound like fashion-wise, tailoring-wise order has been restored. So we got everything we wanted. We're getting the regular unis and jerseys back and the team uniforms in the All-Star game instead of the All-Star game uniforms.

So advocacy protest works. Is there a larger message behind that sentiment from me? Maybe, but in this specific case, at least, we made our voices heard and also the players did, and that was probably more important than people on podcasts, but people on podcasts, including us definitely discussed this at length last year and it sounds like it had an effect. And Nike has conceded that they made an oopsie and they have gone back to not the drawing board, they've just gone back to what was already on the board and was working perfectly fine before. Do you know if any of the players thanked us personally

for our continued attention on the issue? Not that I saw, no, but- That's disappointing, but I think you're right, that it shows that persistence is really important. You feel like something has fallen off the front page because there's a new crisis every day, but if you just keep at it, one issue that you think you can change, it can, it can pay dividends, right? Like I will say this, I want to make clear, I am not one of these people, but I have a feeling that here's the

thing we're going to see. Let's imagine for a moment that the pants are back to their prior level of opacity, which did involve some amount of opacity. If we, you know, as we've discussed, there was some amount of seeing through, but not the same amount of seeing through, not the, oh my God, I can see all of the business that we were seeing before. We're gonna get these pictures from Photo Day, we're gonna see you guys in camp, we will see the varying effects that natural and studio light has on their pants. And I'm optimistic, you know, if they say, the players say, these feel like the old pants, which like, where were they? Were

they just in boxes somewhere? Anyway, if they say these seem like the old pants, then I'm happy for them. How long does it take before someone's like, but I like to be able to see everybody's junk. It's going to happen, Ben. And you know who's going to say it? Someone who's a fan of the Philadelphia Phillies. I'm, I'm, you're the horniest fan base. It's a lot sometimes. You guys need to find out. Maybe a fan of Effectively Wild as well. But yeah, I'm sure there's a, there's a lot sometimes. You guys need to find out. CB It may be a bit of Effectively Wild as well, but yeah, I'm sure there's a contention out there. There's a subset of the audience that was probably well-served by the transparency of

the pace. LS Exactly. They're like, I don't mind. What are you talking about? Everybody stop talking about this. It's like, look, we're not here to further the prairie and interests of random fans. I'm simply saying that you know there's someone out there. CB I also just wanted to highlight a piece of research that was published by Baseball Prospectus

on Monday, and it concerned one of the major debates about sabermetrics these days, and one that I was heartened to see this latest bit of research because it supported my side of the debate, which is the familiarity versus fatigue debate when it comes to the times through the order effect. Why is it that hitters improve relative to the pitchers that they're facing when they face them multiple times in the same game? And some people have been of the opinion that this is purely an artifact of pitchers stuff declining as they go deeper into games. They're losing speed, they're losing command, whatever it is.

And others have been more of the mind that this is about familiarity. This is about the hitters getting a good look at the pitchers and not being fooled by them as much. And I think probably most people have acknowledged that it's probably a bit of both. So it has to be, you know, where are you sort of setting the slider when you're handing out credit or blame here. And I've been more of the opinion that it is familiarity over fatigue. And I guess it's just that I've been swayed by research to that effect more than anything else. Although I also just found the idea more compelling. Like it's, it's more fun to me if that is the explanation or the leading explanation than if it's just that pitchers don't pitch as well as the game goes on. I like the idea that hitters are

actually learning each time that like there's something to that experience and they're seeing something and they're picking up on things and there's a cat and mouse game. And that's one of the things that I miss a bit as we have gone more toward frequent pitching changes is that you don't get to see quite as many matchups in the same game and see how someone sets up someone else for a later plate appearance, or they choose their pitches the first time through based on what their pitches are going to be the fourth time through, or whatever. There's a little less of that than there used to be, but there's still some of that. And according to Steven Sutton Brown, who wrote about this at Baseball Prospectus this week,

it is indeed mostly familiarity. The way they did this was to look at the stuff metrics. So BP, like FanGraphs, like everyone these days, has its own stuff metric that, or you know, pitch level metric that grades a pitcher's pitch by pitch performance. There's, it's called stuff pro and pitch pro, whether it takes into account command and the entire arsenal or just is looking at individual pitches and you know, your people are familiar with Stuff Plus and pitching bot and all the excellent offerings at FanCrafts as well. Same sort of concept. And so they use those systems to see how the pitcher's stuff degrades over the course of a game and each time through the order and then what that would correlate to in terms of run value and how much of the times through the order

effect that alone isolated could account for. And it was certainly some, yes, pitchers do lose a little as the game goes on, but that didn't come close to accounting for it. So according to their analysis, it is in fact mostly familiarity, which again, like that was sort of the, the horse that I had in this race. And so I'm, I'm partial to the findings here, but, but it is pretty persuasive to me and it seems to be a pretty significant effect. It's like multiple times more due to familiarity than to fatigue. And it's like two types of familiarity. It's the familiarity with individual pitches, but then it's also just a general familiarity with the pitcher's whole deal, basically. It might be that they've seen a particular pitch type before, but it also

might be something more holistic, like maybe it's pitch selection, maybe it's release point, you know, maybe it's just timing the delivery and where the ball's coming out of the hand and that sort of thing. So both of those appear to be contributing to this. And I don't know how this affects anything. Like I don't know if it affects picture usage or how you approach the times through the order effects, but this is the conclusion. The role of familiarity now seems clear.

It is both larger than the role of fatigue and operates on both individual pitch type offerings and on the pitcher as a whole. Specifically, the estimated overall familiarity impact is roughly three times as large as the estimated fatigue impact, while the estimated pitch level familiarity impact is roughly twice as large as the estimated pitcher level familiarity impact. So the bulk of it does appear to be like, you fooled me once,

can't fool me again, I've seen you before, this won't work on me anymore. So I think that's kind of cool. This is maybe one of the more convincing studies that I've seen one way or another on this. So I will link to it. But yeah, I don't know if there's any takeaway other than maybe that just means that this time through the order effect is all the more unavoidable because it's not really something that you can condition your way out of. It's not like if I just pitch better, if I just maintain my stuff, they won't catch on to me. No, they will, regardless of what the pitcher does. Maybe you just need more stuff. You know, you got to have more stuff.

And that's what pitchers have largely concluded in teams, I guess, just, you know, don't save anything, don't hold anything in reserve, just max effort from the get-go. And I guess there's something to that idea, obviously, like, you know, if holding something in reserve isn't necessarily going to save you from this effect. Well, I should have said more clearly, because obviously stuff has a baseball-specific meaning, but I mean stuff in both like the literal literal like baseball stuff, but also stuff like more offerings, you know, you need more stuff to throw at them. You need, you need a, you need a deep repertoire. You need a profound, you need a, an encompassing vibe. I'm just thinking about Anne Hathaway. I think what I'm trying to describe is be the picture equivalent of Anne Hathaway because

she's so talented, but she's got a lot of different vibes. That's true. Yeah. Well, she is an actor. That's, I guess, essential to good acting. And as we all learned on Sunday, an Eagles fan had a green sweater and everything. There's sincerity there. Yeah, very, very demonstrative.

They were doubting her bona fides. They didn't know about her grandfather. He used to be a radio guy in Philly. Everybody relax. Stop boating, you know, gatekeeping. Yeah, it's not gatekeeping. Yeah, right. What are you doing? And also, not an accurate description of Anne. Sincere, sincere fan. Get out of here. All the men watching the Super Bowl who are booing Taylor Swift are saying, hey Anne, name 10 Eagles or something.

I mean, look, I don't think that you should boo Taylor Swift for sexist reasons, but I can think of non-sexist reasons to do it, I'll offer that. How about that? I like her music, but everyone relax about it, okay? Oh boy. This is a lot. They don't tend to relax about it. Okay? Oh boy. It's a lot. They don't tend to relax about it. Don't stick the Swifties on us here, please. I'm not trying to invite any nonsense. I'm just saying, sometimes you want different stuff.

You get sick of the same stuff, and then you want different stuff. And you could say that a lot of the stuff from her lately has been similar sounding stuff. And you could say that a lot of the stuff from her lately has been similar sounding stuff. CB 05.30 Lately, lately, I guess. Yeah. I was going to say, you know, you could throw in some, some early Taylor and then some folklore and then, you know. LS. And then she's dating the guy on the team that's trying to 3P. And so it just feels like a lot of the same. And so people are reacting to that. That's all, that's all it is. I mean, sometimes it's more than that. And if it's more than that in a sexist way, like that's gross. Don't do that.

But some of it's not that. Oh my God, I'm so nervous about our inbox now. So this is what Stephen concluded. If you're a pitcher looking to limit damage late in a game or you're a team looking to identify potential starter options What should you do throwing multiple different types of pitches can help? That's what you were just saying since we see some effect is due to pitch level familiarity However, if an additional pitch isn't sufficiently similar in quality to the alternative then it might be better to accept the familiarity penalty

To give an example worse. Yeah If a pitcher has a plus plus slider that becomes simply a plus slider the second or third time through, he's still better off throwing it over a subpar sinker. In addition to having a broad repertoire to choose from, having that repertoire function cohesively could limit the batter's ability

to learn each pitch's unique trajectory. So whatever that means, tunneling or pitches playing off each other, essentially. So there are things you can do. Having more options helps, but there's only so much you can do because hitters, they're good and they can learn. And I will link to this excellent research on that. And then lastly, there have been a few signings, Los Angeles area signings.

There was one more Angels signing of a former Dodgers star, Kenley Jansen is going to the Angels, which furthers my suspicion that they are just trying to reassemble a team of players who were good several seasons ago. My thesis last time was they're trying to get 2019 stars back together again. I guess that doesn't really work with Kenley because that was kind of a down year for him. And he's been okay lately. He's been pretty decent, unlike some of the other players that the Angels have signed this off season

where they're just hoping to resuscitate those careers. Kenley, he's not his peak dominant self anymore, but you can still, you can pair him with Ben Joyce at the back of that bullpen and they'll get you some saves. I will reserve further comment on that because I will have a forthcoming stat blast on the subject of teams whose players were better several seasons earlier than the current season. So we'll see, we'll see what the number to beat is for the angels. If they are actually trying to reassemble the 2019 All-Stars, what other

teams in the past have been in that category of, if only they could teleport or time travel these players on their current roster back to their selves from several seasons earlier, then they would have been way better. So I've got to step last in the works on that subject. But the other LA team, the team that's actually in LA, let's be honest, they made a couple of signings and a couple more reunions as well. Neither surprising, but a little more room at the inn, it turns out, you know,

you can make room at the inn for old friends. And of course we knew that there was room at the inn for Clayton Kershaw, who will be returning. And also Kike Hernandez is back. There was a little more question about whether there would be room at the end for Kike or whether there'll be room for everyone else with Kike in the fold, but it doesn't really feel fully like the Dodgers without Clayton and of course without Kike. So they'll squeeze them in and of course, you know, they can move some, some players to the 60 day IEL to clear room soon. So that'll be one way that they make this work.

But, uh, you know, we were all waiting for those shoes to drop. I thought that Kershaw would happen sooner than later because of the 60 day dynamic that you were naming. I had my money on another mid-season return for Hernandez, because that seems to be a fun little game that the Dodgers play every trade deadline where it's like, you know, play off here what else is, we got to go get Kike because he, I mean, like, look, he seems to be in a way that is very genuine, like an important clubhouse glue guy for them.

And despite the fact that his play has been less good of late, although we'll have to see what a full season with his improved eyesight after being properly diagnosed with an astigmatism, he got glasses and he had this period of adjustment to that and then seemed to hit much better and did hit much better. Although as Jay pointed out when he wrote about the signing for us at Vanagraphs, you know, if you look under the hood, some of the metrics make it seem like it's not quite as clear cut as that, but he clearly had some improvement after and meaningful improvement after he got his eyesight sorted out and then had this fantastic postseason as he has wanted to do, as we have discussed.

But I thought that the sneaky move of another team would be to sign him and then request a King's ransom in prospects at the deadline because it's like, you can't make a postseason run without this guy, apparently. I really appreciate, I was going through our photo service to find an image for Jay's piece, and I think this speaks to the role that Hernandez plays in the clubhouse for them, the sheer number of guys and different kinds of guys from different backgrounds, different countries, different first languages that you see Hernandez photographed with in a way that demonstrates obvious and very sincere affection.

Like I think that that guy just does a really good job of being in the little different pockets, all the little different pockets of the clubhouse, and I think he is like an important connective guy for them. Apparently they have enough dudes who they're gonna be able to put on the 60 day for that to be fine for a while. So good for him and good for the Dodgers, you know? Sure, sure. Sure, yeah.

Everyone wants good things to happen for the Dodgers. That much is clear and hey, there's still time to... I can't believe you're gonna stick Taylor Swift fans, of which I am one, to be clear. I own her music. I've seen her in concert one time, not on the errors tour, back when she was like, I'm a country singer. And we were like, okay, hon.

But anyway, but you did that and you've re-ignited the Dodgers discourse. I'm not answering anything else. If anything, I'm ingratiating myself with the anti-Dodgers crowd by saying, you know, they're not really rooting for them, but there is still time for them to cram another bobblehead or two on the schedule potentially because what there's 26 home series and they have 21 bobbleheads. So you know, there's still a little room at the end, bobblehead wise. And we did get an email from a listener, Charles, who noted that, you know, we were reeling

off all these lists of Dodgers bobblehead recipients and we didn't mention Kershaw. And well, that's because there is no Kershaw bobblehead on the schedule and because he wasn't yet on the roster. Right. And also because they gave away a Kershaw bobblehead last September. So it hasn't been long. And I looked up the history of Kershaw Bobbleheads not only last September, but also Kershaw Bobbleheads in 2023, 2022, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2011. So no shortage of Clayton Kershaw Bobbleheads, but why not one more?

And to be clear, I imagine that they will add one as soon as the ink is dry on his contract. It's just that when a guy is unsigned and also unretired, you got to wait because if he had signed with another team, there's always this, I feel like Clayton Kirshia is Lucy with the football and the Rangers are Charlie Brown where it's like, one of these days you're surely going to sign with the Texas Rangers. Just stay home. But let's imagine for a moment he had signed with the Rangers. That doesn't necessarily preclude you from doing a Kershaw bobblehead, but then you have

to see are the Rangers, is their interleague schedule such that they're playing at Dodger Stadium? Because then you want to wait and you want to do it that day. So you can't, you can't do anything until you know where the guy's going to be. And then if he had decided like, I've thought a lot about it. I've talked with the family and you know, I'm just, I'm ready to be done. Then you do another, you do a retirement bobblehead. But again, you have to wait and coordinate that with Kershaw so that you can do it on a day when he and his family can be there

and all this stuff. So you have to wait. But again, as soon as the contract is dry, I'm sure there will be an addition to the bobblehead schedule. They're not going to not give away a Kershaw bobblehead. Come on. Yeah. Lastly, speaking of the Dodgers, as people often are, one seeming impediment to them cramming all of these players onto a single roster and a single pitching staff, as we noted, that, you know, how are they going to have enough innings and enough guys to throw those innings given that they have a bunch of one inning relievers and then this six starter rotation where guys don't go deep into games? And I thought, and I think a lot of people thought that another obstacle would be that Shohei Otani

would need to re-qualify as a two-way player before he could be designated as one because of course he didn't pitch last season. Right. And it turns out that that's not the case, that he actually does qualify as a two-way player from the get-go. And it is because MLB changed the rule

about qualifying for two-way play kind of quietly last year. So yeah, I was not aware of this and I don't think it was publicly announced. I mean, I guess it wasn't really hidden. I was part of the 2024 major league rules, like not the rulebook proper, but the adjacent rules, which you can find online. But you know, it was in there, but I hadn't noticed until recently. So now the qualification for being designated a two-way player, which means that you don't count against the roster limit for pitchers, the 13

pitcher limit. Now the rule reads, players who qualify as two-way players may appear as pitchers during a game without counting toward a club's pitcher limitations. A player will qualify as a two-way player only if he fully meets both of the following criteria in any one of the current or two most recently completed championship seasons, whereas previously it was the current or previous season. And in fact, the MLB.com glossary entry for two-way players just updated to reflect that in the past week. So you have to have at least 20 major league innings pitched and at least 20 major league games started as a position player or designated her with at least three played appearances in each of those games.

So yeah, that, that changed. And now Shohei Otani qualifies because he pitched in 2023. So how about that? Okay. So here's, here's the deal. Fans of teams that were not the Dodgers who were mad at my take, I got a take for you. This is some bulls**t. Okay?

This is, and like, look, I want to be able to watch with Donnie Pitch and I want to be able to watch him hit. And guess what? That was going to happen even if they had to rejigger other parts of their roster to make it happen because they want that to happen even if they had to rejigger other parts of their roster to make it happen because they want that to happen too. But this is some preferential bulls**t and I think you can be mad about it. I, I, not that you needed my permission to be mad and not that you weren't invited to be mad about the spending by me on this podcast, but I am simply saying that if you are looking for evidence of favoritism of this team and this individual, this is it.

You are right. You are right. This is, this is some, and you can tell that it's bullsh** because they did it quietly. And if it were not bullsh**, I'm doing a lot of swears. Sorry, Shane. But if it were not bullsh**, they would have done a little bit more of an obvious memo. And who knows, maybe this was tucked into one of their rule memos. It could be, I cannot say that I've committed to memory all of the

releases that I get from MLBPR. So maybe it was in there, but I suspect that it was quiet because they know it's a little bit bulls**t and they want to do it anyway. So that's what I have to say about that. I suspect that too. I'm kind of conflicted about this. So I'll give you the history and the timeline because I have a 14 email exchange with a poor, put upon, long suffering MLB PR person asking about this. To be clear, it was not announced.

There was no press release about this. There were other things, other bigger changes that were announced and this one was kind of quiet. And, you know, the goal and, you know, the Union's goal maybe also is providing incentive to players and teams, you know, promote the development of more two-way players. Sure, we're all in favor of that. But yeah, the timing. So when this designation was first announced back in 2019, actually, the original formulation of the rule was the current or previous season. So you had to have been the two-way player in the current season or the season before to qualify. And then in 2020, that was waived for that year, seemingly not because of the pandemic, because it was announced in that February before the whole COVID shutdown,

but they said just for that year in 2020, it would be that season and the previous two. Now, I guess you could say that maybe was also crafted to allow Otani to qualify, right? Because he hadn't pitched in 2019 with the previous surgery. And then 2020, he barely made it back to the mound as it turned out. He pitched an inning and two thirds in two games, but they might not have known that going into that season. So they perhaps could have crafted it that way to allow Otani possibly. And then 2021,

he would not have qualified as a two-way player because again, he barely pitched in 2020 and didn't pitch at all in 2021. However, that year, those roster restrictions were suspended because of COVID. It was still like, you know, pretty much peak pandemic 2021 early. And so they relaxed that rule for 2021. Thus Shohei Otani got to qualify as a two-way player that year, even though he wouldn't have otherwise. And then in 2022 and 2023, he would have qualified under any version of these rules because he was pitching regularly. And then, yeah, heading into 2025, hard to avoid the conclusion that this was crafted in such a way that Chohei Otani could qualify from the start. And, you know, probably wise to do it kind of quietly a year ago as

opposed to doing it right now, maybe, which probably would have been a little louder. So, you know, sort of stuck in under the radar. And, you know, I don't know for 100% certain that this was why it changed, but I have no problem with the rule saying that it's not like it's going to make a difference for any other player or anything. It's not like teams are going to be abusing the two-way player designation. There aren't any others. I'd like there to be others. But yes, the way that it's changed back and forth at just the right time for Shohei Otani to continue to qualify as a two-way player is certainly suggestive. Now, here's the thing.

This entire rule is crafted for Shohei Otani, right? So, you know, maybe like in for a penny, in for a pound. Like, what's your- Sure, on some level, like why have it at all if it's not going to be adaptive to these particular circumstances. But you have less cover to say that part of the motivation of the rule is trying to foster the development of other two-way players when you continue to tweak the rule in response to the particular

roster situation of this one guy. And to be Like, and to be clear, like that was probably always BS, right? I mean, I'm sure they want more two-way players. Everyone likes a two-way player. But like, this is the Otani role. It's there to facilitate the optimal deployment of Otani on whatever roster he's on. And so maybe it's good to just be open about that, but it does feel weird to have like a rule that is really just about this one guy, you know? And it feels weirder when you keep tweaking it to be like, no, but like, I'm also, you

know? The continual alteration of it. How do we need to finesse this so that Otani can qualify? Yeah, there's something that feels about that slightly sketchier than just crafting the rule around him in the first place. And like, I guess it promotes two-way players in the sense that like having Otani continue to be a two-way player and excel at that and encourages other people to follow in his footsteps or shows that it can be done or something. But at this point he's demonstrated that he can do it. So

Right. And it's not like absent this change. Again, like I said, when we started talking about this, it's not like absent this change, the Dodgers would have been like, oh, well, I guess he's not going to pitch this year. Like, you know, he's in a, guess what? He's going to pitch this year, you know? And if they can't figure it out within the confines of the rule, they're going to move somebody or do something so that the dude can do it.

There's no, you know what I mean? It helps the Dodgers slightly. You could look at it as more evidence of Dodgers favoritism, though I suspect that it would have happened regardless of what team Otani is on. It's more of an Otani rule than a Dodgers rule. And in fact, the previous switching around of specifications here happened when he was on the Angels. So I think it's more about Otani and the Dodgers have Otani, but yeah, it's not even the only Otani rule because there's this rule about the two-way player classification. There's the

DH two-way player rule about how he can continue to DH when he's removed as a starting pitcher. There's the, you can make the All-Star team twice rule. Like you can be a DH and a pitcher in the All-Star game. So there are at least three things. If we say, oh, the Otani rule, you have to say which one. Like there are at least three. And I've gone back and forth on how appropriate

I think that is, philosophically, how much should a sport cater to a once in a century absolutely transcendent, thrilling star like this? I think it would be sort of silly to say, it's already so hard to do what he does, like let's hold the line. But you could say, and look, as long as it applies to everyone, in that sense, it's not unfair because like, you know, in practice, Ohtani is the only two-way player. He's the only player this affects, but it is in effect for all teams and all players.

So it's not as if, you know, he's the only guy who gets this carve out and all the other potential two-way players don't like, you know, it's, it's universal in that sense, but it's also just highly specific. So, yeah, I guess, you know, there are all sorts of examples in sports history about like, you know, some, some just mold breaking force comes along and maybe you, you change rules to stop that player or maybe you change rules to help that player and yeah, make that player an even bigger star and try to build around that player. And it's certainly behooves MLB to say, yeah, let's let this guy shine.

When is someone else like this going to come along? We hope someone will, but there's no guarantee. And we haven't seen someone like this, not just a two-way star, but a global star and all the other aspects of stardom that Otani fits. It would be silly to sleep on that and say, no, we can't let him do this. But yeah, there's something, you know, it's a fine line, I guess, between let's promote this player and let's just rewrite the rules of the sports to suit him. KS I want the sport to be dynamic. I think that it having some elasticity is important, particularly when like, you know, Otani brings so many advantages to the team that employs him,

not the least of which is the potential rust or flexibility that he lends. And I think that some amount of saying, this is an exceptional talent, we want to let it fully unspool for the enjoyment of our fans, that's fine. I think that that's fine. I think the piece of it that feels like you're putting your thumb on the scale too much for this one guy in a way that unfairly even if slightly advantages him and his team over the others is that it isn't as if the way that the rule was constituted previously lacked a mechanism for Otani to establish himself as a two way player in season. to establish himself as a two-way player in season, right? They would have been subject to roster limitations, um, and he would have counted against those, but not for the entire year just until he accrues enough innings for him to count as a two-way guy. So that's where this feels like you're doing a favor, right? And that's why I think it feels like some bulls**t. And if I were another, if I were a fan of another team or another team, I would be like, hey, so look,

enough already with this, right? And enough. That's what I would say. Enough. I would send an email and I'd be like, hey Rob, saw you on the Superbowl broadcast. What was Paul like? Anyway, enough. That's what I would do. Did you get to say hi to Anne Hathaway? Was she exhibiting sports fan energy or theater kid energy? Give me a thesis on the difference and also why we should let Otani do this rigmarole. And again, I can't wait to watch the guy pitch. I can't wait to watch the guy do both things. It's going to be so fun and exciting. It's such a cool thing in sports, but at a certain point, enough already, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm sure this will prompt some strong opinions also. And yeah, like we would have seen Otani regardless as soon as he's able to pitch, but maybe the Dodgers would have had one less

reliever in their arsenal while they were qualifying him as a two-way player. So it probably wouldn't have really deprived us of Otani pitching. It just would have deprived the Dodgers of a different pitcher anyway. And maybe I'm being a jerk, right? Because you're right. It would have deprived us of a different pitcher and that would have deprived that pitcher of a big league check, right? And okay, but here's the thing about it, tough biscuits. We have these roster limitations and they're there for a reason. And we can debate the advisability of those reasons and whether the roster limits actually achieve the things that they're meant to.

And I think that's a worthwhile conversation. But this feels a little too much. I think in the interests of me not sounding like a weird Dodgers homer, which would be a funny turn, but a turn I've been accused of, you were all right about this one. This one's too much. It's too much. All right. We report you decide, well, Meg decided, but also you can decide separately and independently. I have a strong opinion. I mean, I'm open to persuasion, but I have a feeling that for the first time in

several months, I'm going to get emails that go, and I don't want to keep talking about the emails, but now it's kind of a bit, you know? Now it's kind of a little bit we've got. And I can't wait to get the ones that are like, we agree about the Dodgers and I'm going to go, thanks, thanks, bud. Good job, coach. I want to call more people coach. Okay.

Try it. I like it when people, I know I can't give myself that nickname for a lot of reasons, because you can't give yourself nicknames. I don't think that would be the one that anyone would pick. Meg's already a nickname, but I like it when people call other people Coach. It feels warm. Yeah. I thought with a vice presidential candidate, it was a little corny, but beyond that, I support. You're making me think about the alternative reality where we could just be getting that guy's Super Bowl takes. We'll be back in just a moment with Aaron Gleeman

to talk about the twins and heads up, we recorded this segment shortly before big breaking news in twins land. The twins actually signed someone, someone Meg's quite familiar with his work. Ty France is now a Minnesota twin after having been roughly replacement level over the past couple seasons. So I don't know that the addition of Ty France dramatically overturns what we talked about with Aaron. I think this preview still holds up just fine.

The AL Central hierarchy, mostly the same as it was when we conducted this interview. So we will talk to Aaron about the twins, but just keep in mind we were not yet aware that Thai France would be on this roster. And then we'll be back with Cody Stevenhagen to talk about the Tigers after that. If baseball were different, how different would it be? And if this thought haunts your dreams, well, stick around and see What Ben and Meg have to say. Philosophically and pedantically, It's effectively wild.

Effectively wild! All right, it is time to talk about the Minnesota Twins. And as usual, we are joined by Aaron Gleeman, who talks about the Minnesota Twins all the time. On his podcast, Gleeman and the Geek, he also covers the twins for the athletic. Hello, Aaron. Hello. How you guys doing? Doing all right.

We were just reminiscing about Aaron Gleeman Twins Preview lore because you've been on these previews dating back to 2014 and you're a 10 time guest going for 11. This one goes to 11 now and we were remembering that last year you were in a hotel and there were several fire alarms during the preview and this time you're at home. So there probably won't be any fire alarms. It would be even worse if there were, but probably we will be free from that this time. But maybe people will miss that. Maybe that, I mean, you kind of left some of it in the edit, I remember.

So that was like part of the vibe, I guess. Maybe this will be worse. You never know. Yep. Previews are always an adventure. This Twins Off season has not been much of one, however, and we will talk about that. We'll talk about how little there is to talk about probably. And I guess that the twins have not initiated many transactions this winter because they're

probably about to be the subject of a transaction themselves. The twins are for sale and that has probably contributed to the slow off season. So what do we know about this sale process? What do you expect, if anything, in terms of who's going to be the new owner of the twins, how this will change the twins not to be owned by the poll ads, what it will take to buy this franchise. By all accounts, I mean, they've been pretty tight lipped about it, obviously, but it's progressed to the point that everyone on the twin side seems optimistic that if they can maybe,

as they put it, choose the winning bidder somewhere around opening day, and there's still some hurdles to cross at that point, even if you make an announcement in April, probably wouldn't take place until closer to the All-Star break maybe, but there genuinely seems to be enough momentum here that I know Twins fans are at least excited.

And I know the uncertainty also is a little bit scary because people have gotten used to the poll ads and as much as fans have shouted, and I've written similar shouts that the poll ads have been hurting this team, particularly the last couple of years when they kind of re-lowered payroll to the metrodome levels. There's always that uncertainty or the scary thought of, well, what if the next donors are worse?

At this point, I think most Twins fans are like, we'll take what's behind door number two, just sight unseen. It can't be that much worse. But the only publicly known bidder so far is named Justin Ishbia, whose brother Matt bought the Phoenix Suns maybe two or three years ago. There's some excitement there just from a spending standpoint, although he sort of spent the Phoenix Suns in the trouble, but that's the salary cap league, so it's a little different, I guess. We got a question from listener Damien that I thought was kind of interesting. He wrote, I've long heard that teams that are up for sale don't spend, but why is that exactly?

It seems a professional baseball team will never lack for suitors, almost no matter what the status of that team's fortunes or roster are. The sale price will seemingly end up being something around or north of whatever the team's generally accepted valuation is regardless of whether they sign Jack Flaherty. It's not like prospective buyers can shop around for a better deal. Players and agents not wanting to sign on with a team that's for sale I could see. GMs not wanting to risk the ire of any as yet unknown future boss I could see. But I don't know why ownership wouldn't give the green light for the front office to do anything that makes sense for the team when it's unlikely to have any impact on the ultimate

sale price and it'll still be on the new owner to pay out that contract, which is kind of interesting because yeah, I could see why, say, signing Juan Soto might throw a wrench into things if you're in the midst of shopping your team around. And probably if you sign anyone, you got to redo some numbers and some, I don't know, projections and get your accountant to be busy again. But you'd think that if you're buying a franchise, you would want that franchise to be successful. You would want to be buying a team that could win its division, let's say. And so I wonder if there really is sort of a light transaction freeze in advance of any sale? Like, you know, as long as you're not

over leveraging yourself or taking on some massive backloaded contract or something, you'd think you could do something. And so I wonder how much you think the inactivity, which is not just this winter, but also spans last winter, has to do with that sale, has to do with the poll ads, has to do with the broadcast situation. I mean, I think the initial, like you said, last offseason the payroll dropped from like 160-ish to 130. And right now they're close, I think they're right around 140. There's actually, my partner at the athletic Dan Hayes wrote a couple days ago that the huge signings of Harrison Bader and Danny Coulombe for like a total of nine million, as sad as it sounds, it surprised

twins fans because they kind of thought that they were at their self-imposed limit and that has pushed them closer to 140 than 130. But I agree, Ben, with everything you're saying, which is like, when you're talking about something on the scale of $2 billion or even $1.5 billion, like what is signing another guy to even a 10 or a $15 million contract? Now if it were a 10 year contract, if they were trying to sign Correa again, for instance, I could see why they would want to avoid that. But yeah, to me, you don't want to dig a hole that then the new owner feels like they have

to climb out of. So I think that the latest, I don't know, it's all speculation at this point, because the poll ads don't really talk. And when they do talk, they kind of get themselves in trouble. But the idea that, well, we could maybe spend 140 instead of 130 and kind of leave on slightly better terms as we exit here. But I honestly think it's because they know deep down they're not going to be the ones paying these every two week checks beyond probably May or June. And so as silly as that seems, if you sell something for 2 billion, I'm kind of willing

to believe they're going to keep the payroll around 140, although for months now there's been speculation about having to shed payroll, whether it's like Christian Vasquez, who's 10 million, Chris Paddock is about 7 million Willie Castro 6 and 6.4 I think but so far they're about 10 million higher in payroll than than I certainly expected Yeah, and Bader and Coulomb really their only free agents signed to major league contracts I think only six teams have spent less this offseason last question or comment about this have spent less this off season. Last question or comment about this, A-Rod and his partner Mark Laurie got good news this week in an arbitration decision that says that they can still proceed with their

purchase of the Timberwolves and the Lynx at what is now a very low valuation compared to what those franchises are currently worth. So can they just snap up the wolves and the links and then use the billion and a half that their purchase has appreciated since they agreed to that purchase price? Just toss that the twins way and A-Rod can just have a monopoly basically

on Minnesota sports. How does that sound? This is where I feel compelled to make a A-Rod already owns the twins based on playoff history with the Yankees, but I'm officially not making that horrible joke. I will say that as a, I'm a huge Wolves fan, sadly, mostly, but there's so much talk that Laurie and A-Rod relative to the other billionaires who own NBA teams are like under-capitalized. And so I would worry about that. But one thing I kind of would expect is if let's say Justin Ishbia and his brother Matt,

who like I said, is his son's owner, if they were to buy the twins, there's already been some reports that they're kind of talking to the Joe Mowers and Kevin Garnett's like local big name, well-liked, but also rich athletes. So I wonder if, you know, if A-Rod and Lori take over the Wolves in a month or two and the twins are sold right around that time, if they might

just do kind of a 3% swap or something like that to diversify their assets. Is that a thing a really rich person would say? I have no idea. I'm a podcaster and a writer. So yeah, we're all really well qualified to talk about the sale of billion dollar assets here as you can all tell. LS. Ben wants to look ahead, but I have to take us back to the month of September last year because through the games on September 1st, the twins were second in the AL Central. They were three and a half games back of Cleveland. And then they played a nine and 18 month.

How could you be so cruel as to bring this up, Meg? I'm sorry, but I think it's relevant to where they go from here, right? Because as we've noted, this is largely the same team. We'll talk about the few additions that they did make and sort of what their fortunes might hold. But this is largely the same group and it is a group that ended on a decidedly sour note, obviously out of playoff position. So talk to us about what happened in the month of September and what of any of it you think means something for the 2025 season and what of it can be sort of relegated to the dustbin of 2024. It was bad. As someone who sat through it,

I really, I couldn't imagine something that bad. There were some injuries involved clearly, but it was a lot more than that. I mean, they had guys like Royce Lewis just were terrible guys who were seemingly healthy and had strong first halves and all that. But that was the weird spot they were in this off season because like we were just talking about, they were assumed to not really have any spending room that if you bring in even 10 million, you have to shed to 10 million. But then the other issue is, can you trust a core that collapsed durability-wise, physically, performance-wise? And fresh off that horrible month, my thought was, well, they're going to do some major

moves here, trades, to maybe break up some of that core because they're not gonna be able to sign for agents and can you really just roll this thing back it turns out sitting here now four or five months later I think the plan is basically to just roll it back and add in you know a couple of different role players and maybe a couple of different rookies than you had last year and I'm surprised by that I guess it's putting a lot of emphasis on some coaching changes to get more out of players. And then it's putting a lot of emphasis. I feel like I've been doing these previews with you guys for 10 years.

I feel like every year we talk about, well, if they can, the twins can just stay healthy. Uh, it places a lot of emphasis, not just on like injury health, but like durability health too. And so I look at this team and it very much could be an 85 to 90 win team, much like they were through, you know, late August or like you said, September 1st last year. But I also look at this team and I go, how is this really any different than the complete collapse that really stretched six or seven weeks? And you can't even say, well, it was because of, you know, season and injuries to so and so. I mean, it was a lot of guys that are gonna be

in the middle of this lineup who hit 160 during that time. So it's a very confusing team to try to kind of project because they really have done nothing and they had two thirds of a very good season and one third of probably one of the worst stretches in team history. And to really just kind of roll that back and go, all right, we're going to give it another try with the same core. I truly didn't expect that even though I knew their ability to spend was going to be pretty

limited. Yeah, I guess the bad news is they didn't add much. The good news is they didn't lose that much either. Who would be the biggest subtraction from this team? Of course, Carlos Santana left via free agency as did Max Kepler, Alex Kirilov retires, which maybe we should just talk about that subject separately, but who's going to be missed the most from last year's roster? I mean, Kepler is the longest tenured, I think over 15 years in the organization, 10 years

with the majors, but I would definitely say based on last year, Santana. I mean, Santana was fantastic. Santana was a $5 million kind of scrap heap. He was 37 years old coming off a couple pretty mediocre years by his standard. I didn't have high hopes when they signed him last year. I actually thought they were maybe just going to platoon him against lefties. He played every day. He won his first gold glove at first base.

He is the best defensive first baseman I've seen for the twins probably since Dougman Kavich, which is a long time ago. And he popped like 20 something homers after a slow start. He was one of their best hitters. Replacing him, I think in terms of all around value, also just a well liked in the club also all that stuff is going to be tough. And that's one of the areas where I thought they would try to bring in more of a veteran bat and instead, you know, first base is kind of wide open right now, I would probably say Jose Miranda, who's been mostly a third baseman

previously is the default top of the depth chart there. Edward Julian, who played his way out of the second base mix could be an option there. They have some other just, you know, AAA type of guys and maybe some minor league signings that they could play there but that that is the spot where that you've lost your one of your five most valuable players from last year and you've made really no attempt to replace him. It'll work out fine if Miranda hits but much like the team as a whole Miranda was hitting 320 through I don't know early August maybe and then

basically was terrible down the stretch. So he's one of the biggest question marks and the position that I think he's going to fill is one of the biggest question marks. Yeah. Carlos Santana resigned with the Guardians. Man just loves the Midwest. I like it. And this is of course necessitating some other shuffling on the infield. So I believe that Royce Lewis is going to be playing third. You mentioned that he had health woes last year. Health woes have sort of defined his career along with these stretches where he has looked just incandescent. So what is the

state of Lewis's health now? How did his off season go? And sort of what are you realistically expecting from him in terms of both production and durability in 2025? It was very strange how the season kind of unfolded for him because like you said, his first two and a half years in the majors were filled by injuries, but then in between, whenever he was healthy, whether it was for like a day or a week or a month, he slugged 600 and he had walk-offs and he hit 300 and all this stuff. And then he came back from a strain groin in the middle of last year and was by all accounts healthy and then just stopped hitting.

And it was really the first time that he was struggling on the field as opposed to struggling to stay on the field. And that I think confused everyone, including him. And as the team sank out of the playoff picture and he was struggling, he talked pretty openly about being worn down physically, basically saying, well, I haven't played that much at this point. Like I've been injured, uh, which is true, but maybe not the thing you want to say. And some of the veterans in the clubhouse, Baldelli also, but Correa, Pablo Lopez

kind of said, we need him to step up. We need him to be who he's been in the clubhouse, Baldelli also, but Correa Pablo Lopez kind of said, we need him to step up, we need him to be who he's been in the past, and he maybe didn't react that great, at least publicly, to that. And so I feel like fans, I don't want to say they soured on him, because they didn't. And Royce is a good dude and can be a great player, and so I'm not trying to paint him in any kind of villainous way,

but I think it was almost like the big reveal to fans and teammates that he's human, as weird as that sounds, because before he had just been either on the injured list or one of the best players in baseball, and this was the first time that neither of those things were true. I expect him to have a big bounce back here.

I think he's gonna play primarily third base with maybe some second base mixed in, depending on the rest of their infield. I think there's no lingering health issues. It's more now, I think, obviously staying healthy, avoiding new injuries, but it's more just about getting this guy ready to play 125 or 140 games because it's taken him, I think he's at 150 something games for his career and that's spread over three seasons. So that's the biggest question with him. I think there are adjustments he needs to make in terms of how he's going to be pitched

now that teams have a little bit deeper scouting report on him. But for the most part, if he can stay healthy, I would expect him to have a big year and if he doesn't have a big healthy year, I think their lineup is probably going to be in some trouble. You mentioned Correa and there were times last year where I thought he and Lewis might've had something of a body swap, because he took on this role of being like oft injured, but very good when he was playing

in a way that was probably comforting in some ways to twins fans who had just watched him turn in a 95 WRC plus season, but also disappointing, because he only played 86 games, largely due to plantar fasciitis, which, you know, once you start approaching 30, those things can linger. So what's going on with Korea health-wise and what are you expecting from him in 2025? He's fully cleared from the plantar fasciitis, but it was also true last year at this time. So he had two years ago, like you said, he struggled, but he played 135 games or something.

He just had his worst season playing through plantar fasciitis. That cleared up going into last spring. He had an all-star great first half, borderline MVP level play, and then came out of the all-star break having plantar fasciitis in the opposite foot or the opposite heel and then missed most of the second half returned late in the season just because he was like, I need to return at some point or this just doesn't matter. Everything we've heard from the twins is that he's in a good spot. It's cleared up like it did the year before during the off season because really the best thing for it as frustrating as it is, is just like three months of doing nothing. He's also said that he's wearing different shoes and he's running differently and he's

training differently to try to kind of avoid some of the things that can maybe make you more prone to having this issue. But it's a weird place for him to be in because his performance was fantastic last year when he played. I mean, he was awesome. But nobody seems quite certain that you can avoid this thing particularly now that he's had it back to back years in both feet. So, you know, I already said this about Lewis, but I mean, they, they need Korea for 125 games, not only offensively, but at shortstop too. And I don't know enough about plantar fasciitis, even after covering him, having it for two years to say like, is he now predisposed to? I would assume

yes, but it does seem weird that it's on both feet and then now you're clear of it again. But as of right now, heading into camp, he's a hundred percent healthy. Well, no discussion of injured twins would be complete without us covering Byron Buxton, who played 102 games, 388 played appearances last year. Those were highs since 2017, as demoralizing as that is. He also hit quite well when he was on the field. The defense possibly slipped a little. He was still above average by all the metrics, but maybe not elite anymore, which really wouldn't be surprising given everything that he's gone through. But give us the update on how he is feeling, the state of his health, how last season went, and whether you see him still as a plus plus outfielder or how you expect Buxton and his new

caddy Harrison Bader to split time and center. I mean, the first big thing last year, because two years ago he didn't play any center field. He was strictly a DH and then couldn't even make it through the season and struggled and had surgery. And so he was a massive question mark going into camp this time last year because of knee surgeries. And they were optimistic, but we've heard that before. And I'll say it was pretty close to the best outcome for him.

As you said, I mean, he's just had such an inability to play even a hundred games and so to play over a hundred to hit well and then to just play center field regularly. And I think he's 30 or 31. So even without the injuries, he's going to lose a little bit of speed. He's, you know, he's the 95th percentile runner now instead of the 99th percentile runner. But I thought he looked very good in centerfield. Now by his own standard, he's maybe, you know, lost a half a step or something, but I still think he's a well above average centerfielder.

He, when he really wants to, he can still provide big value on the basis, but he kind of shies away from that just because of the injury stuff. But he ended last season healthy and he was like joking with reporters at the end of the year, like this is the first year in a very long time where I don't have like medical appointments set for next month or surgery or you know, some rehab process that I have to go to. And so just him entering camp fully healthy, coming off a very good and by his standard, at least very healthy year. I think he's in a really good spot now.

We've seen that doesn't always mean anything with him, but all three of these guys that we just talked about, it's such a similar story where like the talent is never in doubt. The performance even when healthy has rarely ever been in doubt that they're capable of being all star type of guys, but just so much of this team this year and in past years and maybe in the future years is just wrapped up on the question of like, on my podcast, we always say, can they combine to play 300 games in a season? And at the end of every year, all over the listeners go, well, why have you set that number so low? That seems so absurd that and then by midway through the year, it's like, well, why have you set that number so low? That seems so absurd that, and then by midway through the year, it's like, oh, we would really be so thrilled with 250 games combined between them. And that's really the question. Like if you can get an average of

a hundred games each from these guys, this can absolutely be the best team in the AL central and can absolutely be a contender to make a playoff run. But they're all like coin flips to stay healthy at this point. Buxton has lost about a foot per second in sprint speed. Who knows if he's just taking it a little easier or whether he's actually lost a little top speed, but he's gone all the way from being the fastest man in baseball to 18th fastest. He's still 97th in sprint speed percentile, so he's quite speedy still when he's healthy. One player who will not be contributing to that collective games played total this season,

or in any future season seemingly, is Alex Kirilov, who decided that he'd had enough, he'd been through enough physical mishaps and injuries, and he called it a career. So tell us what decided that. In fact, if I recall correctly, you maybe even have some personal insight into what ailed Alex Kiriloff and I guess just a little review of his career and what he was and what he might have been. Well, so for several years, he had wrist and shoulder problems. I mean, he was a top, top prospect and when healthy again, I'll put them with the other three looked great when healthy,

but it was such short windows. And then last year he, you know, was okay, but then had some, what they just called minor back problems. Initially, it turns out he has a, like a spinal condition. I won't try to pronounce it, even though I have the exact same condition I learned at the end of the year. I, and he was, we had a zoom with him, uh, in like October, I guess, where he announced his retirement and he was talking about his

doctors and the diagnosis. And that's when I realized fully. I should go back and look at the video of my face when he's like describing it and listing it and I'm like, is he goofing on me? Like, is this, is he, but no, literally the same. Now, the difference is I'm about 15 years older and a lot fatter and not as powerful of a left-handed hitter to begin with and so.

And also a writer and podcaster. That's true, yes. Thankfully my job, I can sit as I am right now and I'm okay, but yeah, he had a spinal condition still very young and I mean, there's hope, I think, with him, not so much with me, that he can avoid surgery and kind of rehab his way out of it. But he also struck me as a guy who maybe had just come to terms with being done playing, like the daily grind of it. And like I said, I mean, he hasn't gotten through a season healthy. He's had three or four different major surgeries.

He kind of seemed relieved in a way when he was talking to us now, maybe six months later, a year later that could change. I wouldn't be shocked if he, you know, attempted to come back at some point. Cause he's still in his, he's in his late twenties, but yeah, he, uh, he will not be part of the mix. And that would have affected the first base situation that we talked about a little earlier, although it's not entirely clear to me. So he announced his retirement about three weeks, I think, before the non-tender deadline.

And there was some talk that the twins were maybe just going to non-tender him because they just couldn't count on him being healthy and he hadn't been that productive. So I don't know how that would have played out, but I think the first base picture and the DH picture for the twins was going to be in flux, even if Kirilov were part of it. He will not be roaming any kind of outfield, at least not soon. Buxton's availability is, will be optimistic, but is TBD as you kind of noted, at least in terms of how much he'll be able to be out there. And that leaves Matt Wallner, it leaves Trevor Larnak, it leaves the newly signed Harrison Bader. Austin Martin can get some time in the outfield. How do you see these pieces all fitting together

and then answer that question again if something happens to Buxton and he is unable to play centerfield? I think it's going to be Buxton in center and then the two lefties Walner I'm gonna assume in right field and Larnick in left field, although they've both played both spots With that sort of setup you would then want your fourth outfielder to be a you know, right-handed bat Which Harrison Bader is a right-handed bat, but he's not the type of right-handed bat that you really want To put in the middle of your lineup against lefties Austin Martin also hasn't really shown that ability. I've written and talked about the twins, hey, they should sign Randall Gritchick

for like seven years in a row now, and they just don't seem to really value that. So it's gonna be Bader backing up Buxton, but also Bader getting some starts in left and right against lefties. Austin Martin, Simor, I would say if Buxton were to miss a big chunk of time, obviously Bader takes over in center,

which is what Michael A. Taylor did for the twins a couple years ago. They don't really have other potential right-handed corner outfield bats. Luke Kisho is a good prospect who could maybe be pushed into that role mid-season or something. I think their best prospect who's close to the majors, is Emmanuel Rodriguez, who's a consensus, I don't know, top 25 guy, and he's going to start the year AAA. He can play center. He's potentially a great hitter, huge power, great plate discipline, but he's left-handed. And so that doesn't really fix much in terms of a platoon role, but that's one of the areas I get why they went after Bader and for 6 million, I think the price tag was right on that but they just have not really shown any

Like putting a high emphasis on a true kind of corner outfield right-handed masher And I think that's one spot in addition to first base DH which we've talked about one spot where you know If they face a few lefties in a given week, which they will, that's one place where you're a little bit light in terms of offensive production, I think. Well, we've been focusing on the hitters. We should probably talk about some pitchers because the twins have got some good ones. They have a top 10 projected rotation. They have the top projected bullpen, according to the FanCraft's Jep charts. So let's start with the rotation, which has been something of a strength for them in recent years.

You're bringing back Pablo Lopez and Bailey Ober and Joe Ryan and Simeon Woods-Richardson and Chris Paddocks around. So first of all, how is Ryan, who ended last season on the IL, and what are the hopes for Woods-Richardson taking a step forward? How will the back of that rotation shake out?

Ryan is fully cleared. I think if they would have actually made the playoffs and made any kind of playoff run, he might have been cleared in time for that. Yeah, it was a shoulder injury, but more of like a back. It wasn't anything structural, so he's in a good spot. The front three of Lopez, Ryan, Ober in some order is as good as the twins have had and one of the best in baseball.

I think Simeon Woods Richardson took a big step forward last year. There's still some skepticism about him having upside beyond being kind of a backend guy. Chris Paddock has shown flashes, but is another guy who's constantly injured and there were months of speculation that they would try to dump his 7.5 million salary. The one guy I like to maybe be one of their best starting pitchers by the end of the season if given an opportunity is David Festa, who we saw for maybe 40 or 50 innings last year and was really on a good roll down the stretch because he was forced into the rotation.

They also have a guy, Zebby Matthews, who had a breakout year, won their minor league pitcher of the year, kind of a control artist who's upped his fastball into the mid-90s to emerge as a possible mid-rotation or better. So this is not only a strong rotation at the top, but they go like seven or eight deep. And they're going to have a couple very good, probably young arms stashed at AAA to begin the season, which is why there was so much speculation that they could possibly part with Paddock and not really lose that much in terms of the short term. But yeah, I would expect the rotation, again, if healthy, to be of strength.

And Lopez was good last year, but not amazing last year, but all his underlying numbers show that he was probably better than the ERA and he was throwing his heart as he ever has down the stretch. So if I had to name any strength, I would say it has to be not only quality, but depth of the rotation.

And I know you just mentioned that Fangraphs projects them to have the best bullpen in baseball, which is very encouraging. However, I will say that I remember writing an article for the Athletic last year that they were projected to have either the best or second best bullpen in the American league by Fangraphs last year. And it very much,

well, wasn't that. Well, by Fadgraff's war, it was fifth in the majors and second to Cleveland in the AL, but yeah, maybe not so much by ERA, let's say. Still encouraging though. Still encouraging. You've mentioned a couple of names that might reinforce the rotation, a couple of their potential options for the outfield. But as you look at their prospects in sort of the mid to high minors, are there guys who stand out to you as obvious reinforcements if injury or underperformance should befall different members of this team? Yeah. I mean, they have a, what I think is a very good, one of the better farm systems in the 20 years I've been writing about their prospects. Their best prospect is Walker Jenkins. I guess it's possible he reaches the majors in his age 20

season, but certainly shouldn't be counted on to do that. But pretty much everyone after that, Emmanuel Rodriguez I talked about, I think he's going to begin the year at AAA. He could have huge value. Kiesel, similar situation. Zebi Matthews, who I mentioned before, they also have a prospect who's maybe a little bit under the radar named Andrews, who I mentioned before, they also have a prospect who's maybe a little bit under the radar named Andrew Morris, who's a starting pitcher, who's more of maybe an innings eating number three, number four type of guy. So, and they have some pretty good depth for the first time in a long time in just pitching overall. It's been a big criticism of this front office

regime because Derek Falvey was hired from Cleveland and everyone, the buzzword was to build a pitching pipeline like Cleveland and seven or eight years later, it's finally, I think, starting to pay some dividends. But I think they're well positioned not only because the core that we've been talking about is largely mid to late 20s, especially offensively, but they have, I would say, three or four top 100 type of prospects who realistically not only could make their day abuse this year, but could be, you know, by June, let's say could be in the picture, whether through injury or just needing a jolt to the lineup.

So I think they're in pretty good shape, which I'm sure led a little bit to the inactivity of the off season, them saying, do we really want to part with one of these prospects to bring in a big boost to the lineup that short term? But we've also seen a lot of the guys who are question marks for the lineup going into opening day were themselves former top 100 prospects who have had up and down times healthwise. And some of the guys, Kishore Rodriguez, they both ended the year having surgeries, of course, because they are Minnesota twins. And that's how we do it here in Minnesota.

But yeah, I do think the farm system has a chance to make a real impact for them this year. Did want to ask you about the front office turnover or overhaul that Levine left after eight years, former GM, and Derek Falvey was promoted to president of baseball and business operations, which sounded like a lot for one person to do and led to our deliberating about what to call him because we can't just call him a po-bo because he's also business operations. So we deliberated and decided on po-both, which was suggested by a listener. So is that mostly just in name only that he's doing both of those jobs? Are they kind of just under his purview,

but he's not day-to-day managing both? And how has the front office, the baseball operations side of things changed? So they've had the same team president, Dave St. Peter, for 20 something years. And he announced after the season that he was going to be stepping down. There's been some speculation that they're doing that kind of in tandem with the sale. So as a way to elevate Falvey into the dual role before a new owner takes over and maybe wants to clean house or something like that. Again, that's just speculation. I think for now, he's kind of learning the business side while also continuing to run the baseball operation side. I think

eventually he will be more of a 50-50 or more just a big picture baseball guy and handling the business side. They elevated Jeremy Zoll who's been a assistant GM for them for I don't know half dozen years or so. So he officially takes over the GM spot that that Levine vacated. I think the idea was when they initially hired Falvey, he came and hired that Levine to be his right-hand man. And because that Levine had so much media experience, given interviews, and he had been the number two guy in Texas for so long under John Daniels, he took a lot of the initial responsibilities while Falvey got comfortable.

Then once Falvey got comfortable over the last several years, I think the day-to-day responsibilities on the baseball side for Thad Levine got scaled back a little bit. So he exited, I don't think he's landed anywhere else that I've seen yet, but they elevated Zoll to his role.

And I think a year or two down the line, I would expect Zoll to be something closer to the number one guy on the baseball side with Falvey truly doing the dual role. But for now, he's got to kind of learn that those job responsibilities on the fly and Dave St. Peter, before his exit is, you know, kind of taking him under his wing and showing him the, the ropes from the business side. And you alluded to some coaching changes.

There's been new additions on the hitting side, especially, right? So what was the impetus for that and who did they bring in and what, if any, change do you think that they're aiming for here? Yeah, so they cleared out the whole hitting side of the major league coaching staff, which was three guys. David Popkins led the way. He'd been there two or three years. It was a weird situation because no one said a bad word about any of the three hitting coaches. Well, Minnesota, nice.

Well, yeah, maybe that was part of it. But there was a feeling because of how bad the collapse was, like we talked about, and because so much of it was guys like Royce Lewis and Jose Miranda just not hitting that everyone just kind of looked around and said, if we're gonna run it back from a roster standpoint, we can't also run it back from a coaching standpoint, especially on the hitting side.

So they dismissed all three. They actually brought back their old AAA hitting coach, Matt Borgschulte, who has spent the last year or last couple of years as the Orioles assistant hitting coach and has had success, obviously, with all the young guys there. And so he's back to lead a new group. I don't know that the sort of the overall mentality or approach hitting wise, it's an organizational thing. And he's basically coming back to the organization.

So I don't think that's gonna change. What was talked about more was just a new voice, like just the same concepts and the same ideas presented from a different voice and a different vibe and all that. And they're hoping that helps because yeah, there weren't a whole lot of other changes on the coaching side and they're like we said there were very few changes on the personnel side so they're really hoping that bringing back Matt Borgschulte who

has a good rep and did well in Baltimore with the young hitters there can kind of erase the memories of what happened at the end of last season give everyone a clean slate and maybe talk up some of these hitters back to where they were in the middle of last year or two years ago. And we alluded also to the broadcast uncertainty and I know that there were some details announced a couple of weeks ago and Twins TV. Can you tell people just if anyone listening doesn't know how to watch the twins this year, I guess that would be helpful.

But also just from a revenue standpoint, what might that mean for them? Well, it's going to be a disaster from a revenue standpoint. So they're among the handful of teams that are now fully detached from their previous traditional TV provider, which was Bally, now FanDuel. They're direct to consumer streaming, which they launched actually today officially for signups, which is Twins.tv, which is under the MLB TV umbrella, which is a handful of teams are doing that. I know San Diego, Arizona, Colorado have previously done it. They're selling them for, I think it's a hundred bucks a year, $20 a month. And then also

This is probably the number one question. I've been asked can people still watch them on cable and satellite My understanding is that yes, they haven't announced that but they're working or MLB is working with all of the major cable and satellite providers To sort of carve out an individual channel where you know, if it's a seven o'clock game starting at 630 They'll go live with the pregame and then for 15 or 20 minutes after the game it'll also be live but for the other you know 20 hours a day it'll just be basically a blank channel or a screensaver or something so that's how people will be able to watch them on the traditional outlets otherwise the direct-to-consumer streaming and the big difference there in past years is for Minnesota, Iowa, the

Dakotas and then a chunk of Wisconsin, the blackout has lifted, which has been the big issue in the past. That's what's referred to as twins territory, quote unquote. So that'll now be streamable. So that it's a big change. And I do think it's much better than the television situation for twins fans in the last three or four years, which has been a mess. I mean, it's just been unavailable for a big percentage of their main fan base. It's much better from a fan standpoint, but from a revenue standpoint, I know the Padres are basically the only team

that has said how many they sold, and I think it was 40,000. Well, you can do the math on that. I mean, 40,000 times 100 bucks a year is, I don't know, maybe 8% or 10% of what they used to just get as a lump sum from their previous television provider. So the twins were one of the first ones through the door on this thing and they got bloodiest. And I think they're kind of just treading water a little bit from a revenue and planning standpoint, because they don't want

to lock in to anything long-term if there's a big sweeping change coming for how MLB decides to distribute local broadcast for all teams. So I think MLB has even told them, you know, just kind of figure out the next year or two, even if you're taking a hit from that. And I know there's a fund from MLB that some of the teams involved get a little bit of money

to try to make up for it. But yeah, their revenue is way down and that certainly played a part in the payroll being down. The extent of that, you know, it's been a big source of argument here. But yeah, I think it's gonna be better for twins fans just in terms of being able to watch, but it's gonna be some kind of ugly revenue figures

for the twins. And that's one of the biggest things that if you're one of these billionaires who's gonna pay a billion and a half figures for the twins. And that's one of the biggest things that if you're one of these billionaires who's gonna pay a billion and a half dollars for the twins, my assumption is you have to have a pretty strong idea of what you're coming into from a broadcast perspective. And you must have an idea of how you can turn it around

or build it to something that can be a major driver of revenue that can get you back to 40 or 50 million instead of four or five million. All right. Well, the traditional last question is what would constitute success for this team this season? And even though expectations have been somewhat lowered by the slow off season and the way that last season ended, what are Twins fans hoping for?

What can they realistically expect? How should they gauge whether this season was a success? Well, because the Twins are the Twins, every projection always has them with 80 something wins. It was the same last year and they were well on the, and I mean, even collapsing, they finished with 82. So I think in terms of success, not collapsing. If you can sort of repeat the first two thirds of last year and then not repeat

the last one third of last year, as weird as that sounds and as silly as that sounds, that would be a success because even if they were to have played 500 over the last six weeks, they would have made the playoffs. They probably would have won the division. So this once again is a very winnable division. Maybe it takes 90 wins instead of 85 wins like some years. But to me, success would be play meaningful games in September because that means you played well through two thirds and didn't just, you know, step on a rake for the last one third.

And so that maybe is a low bar, but after what we saw for the last six weeks of last season, there should be a low bar because it's the worst baseball for the last six weeks of last season, there should be a low bar because it's the worst baseball I've ever seen in 20 years of covering this team. So yeah, I would say 80 something wins, but in a less excruciating way than last year's 80 something wins. I did feel bad bringing it up, but. No, it had to be said. Sorry, Twins fans. When you live through that, it's not like I can put that out of mind for more than a day or two anyway, so it's okay.

Twins fans are used to some suffering, I suppose. All right, so avoid excruciating collapse. Good goal. We strive for that here at Effectively Wild as well as does Aaron Gleeman in his work at The Athletic and on Mike on Gleeman and the Geek. We got through this episode without a single fire alarm. So far, this year is an improvement. See? Having attainable low goals is a really good thing. Thank you, Aaron.

Of course. Anytime. All right. If you didn't hear our preface to that interview, you skipped straight to Twins. We did note that that was recorded prior to the Thai France signing. As Aaron subsequently said online, France is very likely to be on the opening day roster as part of the mix at first base and designated hitter. Certainly not an exciting move, he wrote, but delving deeper there is reason for a little optimism. If nothing else, it seems pretty clear why the Twins think a bounce back is very possible. Reason being France is 30, and he was hitting fairly well before he got hurt last year. We'll take one more quick break now and we'll be back with Cody Stevenhagen to talk about

one of the Twins Division rivals, the Detroit Tigers. and your poetry as well as baseball. Effectively wild, effectively wild, effectively wild baseball broadcast. All right, now it is time to talk tigers, and we are joined by Cody Stabenhagen who covers the Tigers and MLB at large. For the athletic, he also co-hosts the Tiger Territory podcast. Welcome back, Cody.

Yeah, thanks for having me. This is fun to do every year this time. So it's probably a little more fun for the Tigers and Tigers fans than for the twins and twins fans. We just did our twins preview with your colleague, Erin Gleeman, and Meg subjected Erin to revisiting the way that last year's regular season ended for Minnesota. It could not have... One way to like, you know, characterize me being a responsible journalist. Yeah, she did her journalistic duty by asking relevant questions on a preview podcast, no

matter how much emotional harm they inflicted. But the Tigers end to the regular season could not have been more different from the twins, polar opposite. So take us back to that improbable, wildly exciting end to last year's regular season for the Tigers. Did it surprise the Tigers, the players, but also the front office that decided to subtract at the deadline? Did it surprise them as much as it surprised neutral observers? And how, if at all, did that incredible end to last season color their approach to preparing for this season?

06 Yeah, I mean, I think it absolutely surprised the front office. They would never admit that, but if you want proof, just look at the fact you mentioned, which is that they sold everything they could at the trade deadline. They were looking to acquire younger talent. They brought up a bunch of guys no one had ever heard of from the minor leagues. And then suddenly they started winning. Now you ask the players, you would get probably the quotes you expect that they always believed. But by the end, a couple of guys started kind of admitting, yeah, we even surprised ourselves a little bit.

Guys were having to cancel honeymoons or cancel off-season plans they had already made. So it really did come out of nowhere. As I look back and try to make sense of it, I still struggle because although there is some talent on this team, they really staged that run finishing I think 31 and 11. Things do some incredible pitching, the pitching chaos approach, but it was guys like Sean Gunther and Brendan Hannafee and other guys you've just never heard of who

just continued to get out and they did just enough offensively. And I think that was a big question once it was all over. Like, does this accelerate their timeline? Does it make any difference in their timeline? Here we are on the eve of spring training, still a little bit hard to say, right? The Tigers have made some additions, but they have still stayed with only short-term contracts to this point. Alex Bregman looms unsigned. They have some interest in him. They know he checks some needs, but I don't think they got more aggressive than normal or went all in or handed out a bunch of multi-year deals or began trading young talent for veterans. I think this organization is definitely still minded toward the future and toward those things

almost every team says about trying to build a sustainable winter. But you look at the state of the Tigers in the big leagues and their farm system, and it is possible to see a run of several years here where they're going to have a lot of young talent. And I think it's a matter of putting a couple of the right pieces around that young talent to supplement it, to see if this team can reach a higher level or maybe even for the 2025 team if last season the second half was just a flash in the pan. Yeah, it's interesting because when you look at their, now granted this is on sort of the season long basis, but when you look at some of their peripheral statistics from last year, like if you look at their Pythagorean expectation or their base runs record, they weren't wildly

off what we would expect a team of this quality to do. They just managed to concentrate all of that winning right at the end. And you're right, they're an interesting roster because they have these young guys and we'll talk about a bunch of them soon, but they also have some vestiges of the last iteration of the Tigers team, you know, teams that they hoped would do better than they ended up doing. So I don't know, let's start with some of the exciting young guys because they have gotten some reinforcements and there's also been some shifting around. So one of their offseason additions was Gleyber Torres that has had knock on effects for the rest of that infield.

Tell us what they saw in Torres and then how his edition has moved guys like Colt Keith around and what that might mean for Spencer Torkelson. Just to end on a down note. Gleyber Torres was very much not on my radar at all. I don't think he was really on anyone's radar for the Tigers because it was assumed they had a second baseman. His name was Colt Keith. They worked very hard to make Colt Keith into a serviceable defender at second base last season. The Tigers had been mentioned in connection with some of the first basemen out there. I thought high end if they're willing to forfeit a draft pick Christian Walker, low end, maybe Carlos

Santana. Well, the Tigers did neither of those things. They got more, I guess you would call it creative, and they signed a second baseman, moved Colt Keith to first. Gley Ritores brings some interesting things. I think he brings some stability to their lineup. This is a guy that has just posted around a 330 on base percentage pretty much year in and year out. One thing the Tigers did not do well last year was simply getting on base. They ranked 29th, only the White Sox were worse. So Torres with the offensive profile, I think the floor is pretty high and obviously Yankee fans would long believe maybe there could be more of a ceiling, the power he showed very early in his career. The Tigers seem to think there's more in there.

Gleiber seems very motivated on this one-year deal, trying to up his market a little bit. The interesting thing is it somehow makes an infield defense that wasn't all that good to begin with even worse. Gleiber is not a very good defender. Colt Keith was not a good defender last year. He's now moving to first, a position he has never played. I think it probably fits his physical profile more, but I'm not sure what to expect of Colt Keith defensively at first.

So in field defense, going to be a huge question. And then, yeah, the big ripple effect Spencer Torkelson, number one overall pick, a guy who just two years ago hit 31 home runs. He is now on the outs. It is he's on the roster bubble in spring training. And I would probably say probably on the the part of that bubble that is more likely to burst. He's not playing any other positions right now.

He's a right handed for spaceman. He has some power, but he struggled to hit for average and get on base in the big leagues. He struggled defensively in the big leagues. For as much as maybe there's still something you can believe in with Spencer Torkelson, this does seem like a pretty calculated decision by the Tigers to go another direction.

Speaking of not getting on base, Javier Baez remains on this roster. And I don't want to say that the Tiger Surge late last season was because Javier Baez was not playing, but perhaps that didn't hurt. So how does he fit into the picture because he has still a few years left on his deal? LW. Yeah, it's strange. Baez was on the IL for almost all of that run and he was so out of sight, out of mind. It's almost going to be weird seeing him, I think, back at spring training, back in this infield, because just like, yeah, how does it affect the dynamic of everything?

It was Trey Sweeney, a guy they acquired in the trade for Jack Flaherty, who was playing the majority of time at shortstop in the second half. He didn't do great at the plate and he was solid in the field, but it still felt like an upgrade over Javier Baez. The bad news, the Tigers are going to be paying Javier Baez for three more years. He's owed $73 million. Baez had a hip surgery in September that they hope maybe can help him out a little bit if he can move better at the plate, get his hips engaged in his swing. It's kind of striking, I always point out, to look at his strikeout rates. Think of Javi Baez, and you picture just the wild chases and the memes you see on the internet. His strikeout

rate has declined by almost, I think, 10 percentage points over three years with the Tigers. But he has also lost almost all of his power. There's not really the good Javi that we used to see. It's a Javi who maybe makes a little more contact, but he doesn't really do any damage. Now he is seemingly still a really good defensive shortstop. Metrically, he wasn't quite as good last year, but eye test still pretty good I think the Tigers are gonna give him some run But I wouldn't be shocked if Baez ends up being more of a platoon option basically just playing against left-handed pitching this season unless he's somehow able to Even if he could be the 2022 version of himself, which was not great

But around a two-war player if you could get that you would feel really good. Otherwise, it's it's gonna be a dismal three years or the Tigers are eventually gonna have to consider eating this contract. I don't expect that to happen soon just because that's a lot of money, but it's a bad situation. Okay, well we've bummed Tigers fans out with a bad situation, but let's talk about a good one. I want to talk about Riley Green's season because if you were worried about a guy getting on base, well, he did that and he hit for power, he had 135 WRC plus. What did they like about his season other than the four war he was worth and what are they hoping he might do to take another step forward in 2025? Yeah, I think health is a big thing for Riley Green. This is a guy who's had some injuries in his time.

In a way, they were kind of freak things, fouling a ball off his foot, diving for a ball in the outfield and somehow tearing his UCL. But at the same time, there've been concerns like, this guy is incredibly talented, but is he going to be too fragile? He did have an IELTS,

I think it was a hamstring strain last year, but that was a minor deal. For the most part, he was healthy and he was productive all year long. I would say one of the more underrated players in the American league. There's a guy who in three years time in the big leagues has shown a lot of signs of progress. Fly ball rate has increased every year, quality of contact, a lot of those metrics have increased year by year. There's maybe still a little more power to tap into, but he gives you a go to bat, his walk rates have gone up, his strikeout rates have gone down. I think the Tigers would like to see those trends continue and they would like to see him stay healthy. This is a guy who probably should have been a gold glove finalist, but wasn't, but played

a gold glove caliber left field almost. A lot to like about Riley Green. I really think he could be a top five MVP type vote getter and not enough people in the national stage realize quite how good he is. Well, I'll go back to bumming out Tigers fans for just a second. Third base, we should probably talk about that situation too. As we speak, Alex Bregman remains available, but failing that, what is the plan such as it is? Yeah, I think if the Tigers do not get Bregman, the move would probably be internal. It would

probably be a combination of Matt Vierling, who was pretty solid for Detroit last year, and Jace Young, a former top 100 prospect, had a.362 on base percentage, I believe, in his first taste of the big leagues. Young is not a very good defender at third base, but he's kind of hit pretty consistently at every level. I'm not sure there's a super high ceiling with those two, but there's a world. Could you picture them amounting to 85, 90% of Alex Bregman's production? Maybe that's not impossible. Andy Ibanez probably gets some time at third, Zach McKinstry probably gets some time at third, and we'll see how the Bregman pursuit ends.

If the Tigers end up getting Bregman, the city of Detroit is going to be so thrilled there might be a parade for this guy. But if they don't, it might also be fair to question the Tigers passed on a lot of other players, Ha Sung Kim, a guy I know they liked and a player I really liked, even though he's going to miss the first month or two with injury. But they've passed on some other options, seemingly really focused on Bregman, but not wanting to give him a long-term deal. Maybe part of that is because they feel good about a veering young platoon, but at at the same time that just kind of creates a couple more question marks.

And so if you want to bum yourself out, which I swear I'm not intentionally trying to do, the Tigers are young and fun and maybe it could end up being pretty good, but there's still just a lot of question marks and you're leaning on the volatility of young hitters, which is always kind of a dangerous game. If you don't get Bregman third base is going to be just one more question mark. Maybe I'll ask about a player who seems to encompass both exciting and bombing fans out at the same time, which is Kerry Carpenter. You knew where I was going to go with this. You watch him hit right-handed pitching and you're like, why isn't this guy one of the best hitters in baseball? And you watch him try to hit left-handed pitching,

and you're like, oh, okay, well, that's why. But he had one of probably the most important home runs in Tiger's postseason history, certainly of recent vintage, was a little banged up through the course of that postseason run. So how is Kerry Carpenter's health and what are they going to do with designated hitter on the days that they face a Southpaw? Yeah, as far as I know, Kerry Carpenter is totally healthy coming into spring training. Gosh, the postseason was such a whirlwind. He just had a pulled muscle, right? I don't even remember what it was.

So he was good, but he did nurse a stress fractures in his back throughout the summer. I mean, those are healed up and he finished the season, but something to watch, you know, is he going to be fully healthy in that realm? Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, Kerry Carpenter is one of the best hitters in all of baseball against right-handed pitching. The list of guys with a higher OPS than him against right-handed pitching is Aaron Judge, Shohei Otani, Bobby Witt Jr., Kyle Tucker. I'm pretty sure that is it. And for a long time I had advocated like,

let's see this guy get some more lefty at bat. I mean, I asked AJ Hinch about this two or three times over the course of the last couple of years. I know it was always kind of like, yeah, you know, maybe when the situation calls for it or, and it's still a small sample size, but it's pretty concerning in the small sample size. It makes it tough to justify, I think, giving Kerry a bigger sample size against left-handed

pitching. So I don't see him playing more, at least not much more, against lefties this year. That's where kind of the lineup creativity, the Tigers have made their staple, will come into play. You can use that DH spot to get other guys like a Riley Green off their feet or maybe Colt Keith, Gleyber Torres. There's some flexibility to DH guys there. I think when Kerry Carpenter is not the DH, it's going to be kind of a revolving door and it'll also maybe depend on pitching matchups and how AJ Hinch wants to work all of his managerial magic.

I'm sure we talked on last year's preview about Tiger's spending and what Chris Ilic would ultimately be willing to do and when they would really go all in. And certainly in comparison to the twins who we just talked about, they had themselves quite a busy off season, but they were middle of the pack in spending. And I guess there are areas where they could have upgraded more and could still upgrade more as we just covered in our Bregman conversation. Illich and his wife I know are getting divorced. They just announced a few days ago and said in a joint statement that the legal proceeding will not impact the ownership of any Illich businesses, which hopefully was reassuring to Tigers fans, but are Tigers fans satisfied? Are they pleased with the degree of investment here? Is there more to come because the time is now, essentially, after quite a long wait. It's always a hard conversation because Tigers fans lived kind of an outlier experience in the late years of Mike Ilitch where they

were spending extravagantly, spending even beyond their market size. And those reigns have definitely been pulled back. I've always said I don't think the Tigers will be a luxury tax team under Kucilic. I think it's time for everyone to accept that reality. At the same time, they haven't necessarily been penny-pinchers to the degree you might think, even with not signing Bregman, maybe not wanting to commit to Bregman for a six, seven-year-type contract. I mean, they did sign the Javi Baez deal. And even this off-season on one-year deals, 15 for Alex Cobb, 15 for Gleyber Torres. They signed Tommy Canely. And then Jack Flaherty was kind of a surprise edition at a higher AAV. He's going to make probably 25 million this year.

So like there's some some willingness to spend and invest in what was a low payroll in the short term. In the long term, I don't know that there's going to be some all in moment if it is, I think it would be Bregman, but I think the Tigers are pretty committed to young talent and building things in-house and having an elite development system. They've honestly made pretty remarkable progress toward those goals in just the past two years and the future still looks very bright. Like I said, they're gonna have to supplement it with one or two of the right moves. The future of Tarek Skubal looms large. But

I think we're beginning to see hints that this is kind of the Tigers identity, exactly the roster makeup we're seeing right now. I can't believe that we've gone this long without mentioning Scoobel. Like, what do you say about his season? Right. That it was... Really good. It was really good. And put together the disparate parts, right? We've seen him be very effective, but we haven't always seen him be healthy at the same time.

We've seen him be healthy, but less good. Apart from health, which obviously is a big part of this, what allowed him to sort of take this step forward? He's throwing harder. He's striking guys out still. He's not really walking anyone or giving up a ton of home runs, posting a six-win season and winning a Cy Young. Like, what do you, how do you, how do you explain it other than, hey, good job, buddy?

Tarek Scoobel has always been really talented. What's amazing, I think, is how many adjustments he has made even in just the past two years. There's a guy who was not a premier strike thrower early in his big league career, was prone to kind of elevated pitch counts. Now he's one of the best first pitch strike throwers in all of baseball. He attacks the zone. His change up has ended up becoming his best pitch. Totally revamped, leaned into seam shifted way, worked with the Tigers

and his own coaches to make that an elite pitch. He upped his sinker usage against left handed hitters in particular. Guys beat that into the ground. That wasn't even really a huge factor in his arsenal a couple of years ago. There've been a lot of little small tweaks that have added up to kind of create this monster that we're seeing now. So that's a testament, I think, both to the Tigers and to Scoobel for putting in that work for kind of chasing perfection and not just relying on,

hey, I have a power fastball and a nasty slider. He's become such a well-rounded pitcher. And that's why I think it's entirely possible he could repeat his Cy Young season. Last year, he was kind of the whole package. Premier stuff, Premier strikes, health will always be a concern with him in any pitcher, but he's hopefully done with the major arm surgeries at least for a little while. This is a guy who's again, I think going to be one of the best pitchers in the American League, if not the best pitcher in the American League. The Tigers have the sixth best projected rotation according to fan graphs right now.

They certainly could have used some of these guys down the stretch last year, or maybe not. Maybe they wouldn't want to mess with that success. Butterfly effect, change anything. Maybe it doesn't work out quite so well, but they did that in the absence of Jack Flaherty and now they will try to make it back to the playoffs with the presence of Jack Flaherty. So pretty nifty little sequence there for Detroit. They got to enjoy the excellent start to last season from Flaherty. Then they got to deal him away for some prospects and then they made the playoffs anyway.

And then they just resigned him on a deal that has really come in under the projections and expectations for what Flaherty might make. So there was a lot of speculation that maybe he didn't get more because of concerns about his health. Do you think there's anything to that? What led to this reunion with Detroit? Yeah, obviously the market just wasn't there for Jack. I think the health concerns were legit. The Yankees nixed a deal at the trade deadline over concerns with his medicals.

He had two back injections in a span of three weeks beginning in late June. And then even though he was very effective for the Dodgers, the strikeout rate declined a little bit. The fastball velocity was a little bit more up and down. There were just some signs for slight concern, and I think that's why no one was quite willing to give him the four or five-year deal he wanted. And the list of teams that didn't want to give him that happens to include the Detroit Tigers.

So I asked Scott Harris about this, about the health, and he said it's no concern. He doesn't even know where that came from. I think the implication there was like the Dodgers thought he was healthy, so why didn't the Yankees think he was healthy? The Tigers obviously feel good that he can be healthy and produce, but I think maybe there are enough concerns in Jack's past. He's had, I think, an oblique issue, a shoulder issue, that the Tigers didn't want to give this guy four more years either. But they were pretty thrilled to get him for one year and an option. A little bit of a victory lap for Scott Harris, probably his finest

work yet as president of baseball operations to trade him, get a guy in Trey Sweeney who played shortstop for them down the stretch, get a switch hitting catcher in Tyron Larranzo who's now on some lists a top 100 prospect. And the big twist, you get Jack Flaherty back. You don't have to give up a pick to sign him. You can still give him the qualifying offer if he opts out at the end of this year. There's a lot to like for that in the Tigers. But even the structure of the contract kind of accounts for injury a little bit. Flaherty has to make at least 15 starts to be eligible to get $20 million in 2026. If not, he would only make $10 million where he'd come back to the Tigers.

So as much as the Tigers say it's not a concern, I think they built in some level of protections. But this was kind of the off-season move, I guess in addition to Gleyber Torres, but like the one I didn't see coming, I thought they got Alex Cobb and they were going to be done adding starting pitching while they get another really good starter in Jack Flaherty, a guy who had a lot of success last year. And suddenly the Flaherty scoobal one-two punch looks pretty good all over again. Yeah, it's interesting. Last year, as we've noted, like their second half was like, starters, where we're going, we don't need starters.

And so it would be nice to have a couple of those guys, but they were able to navigate the second half and then a postseason run with their bullpen. How do you see them piecing together the pieces of that bullpen again, hopefully with a little more modest use than they saw in 2024. But obviously these guys can pitch a lot of innings. They're very effective. They've been reinforced with Canley. So how do you see all of those bullpen arms sort of being pieced together by AJ Hinch? Yeah, the Tigers, it seems like they're going to begin with a traditional five-man rotation. But I think the spirit of pitching chaos will remain in

this organization. You know, if there's, they want to give a guy an extra day of rest, they want to skip a start, there's just a matchup they don't like. I don't think they'll be afraid to throw Tyler Holton out there as an opener again and mix and match with a bullpen day or whatever it might be. The Tigers always want to be quick to point out they weren't necessarily taxing their bullpen a ton more in a traditional sense because they kind of had these openers who were almost

expected to do that every fourth or fifth day and they were and then they would have a bulk guy who would pitch four to five innings and so then innings six, seven, eight, nine guys would have been throwing those innings even if you did have a traditional starter. So if that makes any sense, that was kind of their justification and probably why it worked, why the bullpen didn't just completely blow up. Bullpens are volatile by nature though. On paper this looks like it could be a really good bullpen. Jason Foley, Bo Burski, Will Vest, Tyler Holton, now Tommy Kainley. Those guys are probably locked into five spots. There's gonna be a lot of competition for the final three spots. Brent Herter, Sean Gunther, a couple lefties who made

a strong impression last season I think have really good roster cases. I think what's going to be most interesting is to see what starters might convert to relief. And particularly to former highly touted prospects Casey Mize and Mattning, now look to be on the outside looking into the rotation. I would not at all be shocked if one of them converts to relief. And if a couple things go right, I think both profiles guys who could be really good relievers. So there's a world where the Tigers could again have an effective bullpen. I think this year they really do at least inter-camp with a ton of depth.

It's going to kind of be interesting to see how that shakes out and who emerges this season. Yeah, I was going to ask about Mize and Manning because at one point it was a trio of hot shot pitching prospects. Manning and Mize and Schubel and hey, one Cy Young winner out of three. That's not so bad, whatever you end up getting out of Mizen and Manning. Jackson Job is projected for 86 innings right now, according to the fan graph depth charts, are you taking the over, the under, is that where you'd set the over under? When do you think he'll arrive and what will his role be and how good will he be? Yeah, I think I would take the over one that I think he'll throw over a hundred innings

in the big leagues. Now there's the concern he hasn't thrown a huge workload ever in his minor league career, but he's gonna come into camp battling for the fifth rotation spot. And it'll probably come down to a combination of how he throws, maybe what the Tigers wants to do with Kinta Maeda.

And then would the Tigers rather hope he can become a rookie of the year type guy and earn them another draft pick? Or would they maybe rather gain his service time, get an extra year of team control? If Job's not in the rotation to begin the season, I would expect him to be in the rotation by probably late May. I think he's going to throw a lot of innings on the big leagues. I think the Tigers are really excited about him and expect him to function as a traditional starter for most of this year. Is there any concern about some sort of hangover effects

from last year in the way that those relievers were ridden so hard? I guess sadly for Tigers fans, they didn't have that deep a playoff run, which could have added to that, but they really just had to leave it all on the field Sadly for Tigers fans, they didn't have that deep a playoff run, which could have added to that, but they really just had to leave it all on the field just to get to October. So sometimes you do hear about a post-October hangover effect or something that comes back to bite pitchers the

year after something like that. Hard to say how much there is to that, but I wonder whether they will handle anyone differently or ramp people up to the spring differently as a result. Yeah, that's a really good question and not something people in Detroit have talked a ton about, but it's a good point. You look like a guy like Tyler Holtin, who's thrown, I think, more than 90 innings in relief over the past two seasons, just a huge workload. Jason Foley, a guy who I think only made one postseason appearance, his arm had appeared to just like, like he just looked fatigued by the end of the year. So he was

already dealing with some of that. I haven't heard any changes to plans or ramp ups other than they want Kintamaeda to begin throwing a lot earlier in his off season. But that's a really good question. Probably something I'll poke around on a little bit this week. You've mentioned some of the folks already, but I'm curious, you know, as you look to the mid to high miners, who are some of the guys who you think could end up serving as reinforcement to the big league roster, either because of injury or underperformance? Who are some of the names to know in the miners? Yeah, it's a little bit interesting, even though the Tigers have what's graded out as a really good farm system.

The big prospects, Max Clark, Kevin McGonigal, are probably another year or two away. They don't have anyone other than, if you count Job really knocking down the door in triple A, I guess you could also put J.C. Young in that bucket though. So they have some young guys who are on the roster, fringes, who maybe they begin the season in Toledo. Otherwise, I think a name people aren't probably talking about enough is Howie Lee. Tigers got him in exchange for Michael Lorenzen at the trade deadline two years ago.

He's become a really good player, finished last year in double A, getting an invite to big league camp. I think he'll probably begin this year in AAA and could be a candidate to debut. He plays mostly second, but he's also began playing some third, so it's not hard to see how the door could open for him a little bit. And then with the pitchers, it's a long list of similar guys names. I've already mentioned, Brand Herter pitched in the big leagues last year, but the Tigers think he could have a very bright future. Troy Melton is a little bit of an under radar guy. I think the Tigers are expecting to maybe be kind of this year's version of that. And then this time next year, we're going to be talking a ton about Max

Clark, Kevin McGonigal, and we'll also see how some even younger guys, Tyron Larranzo and Josley Brasenio fare on the farm because they could develop into big time prospects as well. CBer Yeah, it is prospect season at Fangrass and elsewhere. And I think Kylie McDaniel at ESPN had the Tigers as the number three ranked farm system. AL Central just in general, a lot of strong systems these days, but the Tigers have really done a lot to improve their development pipeline. How have you seen that manifest under Scott Harris? How have they improved their process? Yeah, I think I was on with you guys two years ago and I said in a weird way,

maybe the utter failure that was the 2022 Detroit Tigers was the best thing that could have possibly happened to the organization. If you look back at that, man, that really checks out because Scott Harris came in and in really short order has revamped the system, player development, scouting. The Tigers just seem to have gotten really adept at evaluating and developing players. Some of this work was going on just before Scott Harris. They had hired some new personnel in the minor leagues, Ryan Garco, Gabe Reves, so I think AJ Hinch has played a role in shaping this as well.

They really know what they're doing, I believe, when it comes to pitching. I'm not sure what secret sauce they have tapped into, but they're slowly asserting themselves as one of the game's top pitching factories. And last year we began to see some more fruits of that on the hitting side as well. Some of it is as simple as drafting better, getting a guy like Kevin McGonigal in the second round and he ends up becoming a top 25 prospect, depending on what list you're looking at. I think that one list had him ranked as high as number six. Larranzo you got via trade. Jose Brasenio was kind of that international guy that the Tigers had not had for a generation who's finally began popping in the minor leagues a little bit. And then the depth has been much better. You get guys like Herder or Hanofi or whoever it might be, and the Tigers seem to be optimizing them, helping them improve. So it's one of those things that no one really likes to give away the secrets to but I can tell you the Tigers just function like

a much more modern organization. I think they've become very data-driven, very data savvy and maybe the biggest thing they have some coaches who are very good at translating this information to the players and we've began seeing the results of that. translating this information to the players and we've began seeing the results of that. Yeah, I don't want to pick on Torkelsen and you know, I know that these are picks of a prior regime, but I am curious as they sort of look at how his big league career has unfolded and we don't need to say that it's done by any means. You know, I imagine he'll continue to play a role for them going forward. If a diminished one, did they sort of attribute his struggle to more of a failure of assessment on the front end

or a failure of development on the back end? Yeah, you know, was he rushed too quickly to the big leagues? Was he a product of the COVID year? He was the number one pick in 2020. How did that affect his development? Hard to say, but I think once they did see him in the big leagues, you could see the power show up, but he just wasn't an adjustable hit hitter if that makes any sense. He's never been great at covering the plate I tell this story all the time I was talking to a scout about twerkleson once and and they just kind of flipped the page and they had they're basically charting pitches You know that had been thrown to twerkleson and how he fared and in the middle of the strike zone This scout had just written all these question marks.

It has been pretty striking how often Torgelsen has just failed to do damage with pitches down the middle. Timing has been a big issue. I think the Tigers would have liked him to make some adjustments. There were hints that maybe, I mean, Torgelsen seems like a really good guy, but maybe he was just a little stubborn in his hitting approach or with his swing. Sounds like a lot of work has

gone into him this past off season. I've heard whispers, maybe he's going to break out a toe tap. Like maybe some of those bigger changes are finally happening. But I think the Tigers have tried to develop him at the big league level and it just hasn't quite taken for whatever reason. One of the mysteries of baseball, I guess. Imaging these whispers about the toe tap, just people clandestinely like, have you heard, have you heard the news? Torque might be toe tap and might be a, a torque toe tap.

Pass it along. Exactly how it unfolded. Yeah. They, they had, they had their hitters come to Camerica Park in July and take swings in their underground smart cage. And then people are like, yeah, Torque showed a toe tap. He hit 110 off the tee. It's like, oh my God, top-seeker stuff.

Well, worth a shot. The Tigers were almost in the same boat as the Twins when it came to broadcast uncertainty. There was some, I guess, whispers that they might be dropped by Bally slash Van Dool and ultimately that didn't happen. They ended up back with Van Dool but on some sort of reduced rate, right? So any sense of what kind of cut they're looking at there or how that might affect their flexibility when it comes to spending even at the deadline. Let's say if they're in position to be adding this deadline, don't mess with success.

Maybe they should just keep subtracting at the trade deadline and just see what happens because it worked so well last time. But I don't know that you want to run back that tactic if you are actually in the mix. Yeah, I haven't heard a ton, a ton on that, which makes me think that Tigers actually aren't all that worried about it. If this were a some sort of budget crisis over the TV deal, I think we would know about it. I got this since they were just happy to have this settled, to know they'd be sticking with FanDuel, to know that they would have a rights holder this season. Just kind of getting that in a place where you're able to have a little more certainty, at least in the short term, I think was beneficial.

There hasn't really been any talk of the TV deal affecting the Tigers' plans, at least for this year. All right. Well, we will end this segment as we end them all by asking what would constitute success for this season. So tough act to follow from last year, but what's the hope, the realistic outlook for building on that? Yeah, the Tigers could be victims of their own success, right? You have expectations now. I think Picota picks them to win 80 games and Fangraph Zips has them, what, 83. So that doesn't

necessarily equate to a playoff team. Unfortunately once you make the playoffs and you're a young team and you're expected to get better I think I think if you don't make the playoffs it would it would kind of I don't know failure is the right word but a successful season is certainly getting back into the playoffs no doubt. All right also a successful season if you're regularly reading and listening to Cody Stevenhagen which you can do at the athletic and on Tiger territory respectively.

Thank you as always, Cody. Yeah, absolutely, thanks guys. All right, here's my 2025 Tigers preview, Jason Benetti. What more do you need? It's nice to have a good team too, but Benetti is a strong start. That will do it for today. Thanks as always for listening.

Hopefully Cubs and Giants up next. For now, you can support Effectively Wild on Patreon too, but Binetti's a strong start. That will do it for today, thanks as always for listening. Hopefully Cubs and Giants up next. For now, you can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash Effectively Wild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay ad-free, and get yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners. Benjamin Gonzalez, Sal Wilson, Ted Sheehan, Rebecca Lloyd, and Michael Underhill, thanks to all of you.

Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, playoff livestreams, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, discounts on merch and ad-free fan crafts, memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings at patreon.com slash effectively wild. If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us at the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email, send your questions, comments, intro, and outro themes to podcast at fangraphs.com.

You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild. And you can check the show page at FanGraphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links

to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We'll be back with another episode later this week. Talk to you then. Did Richard Love Lady ever strike a Taylor T. Godin? Who had more war, Jason Kendall or Russell Martin? What if Shohio Tani's dog was also a good lawyer? What would you do if Mike Trump just showed up in your foyer?

Or is it foyer? Find out on Effectively Wild. Russell Martin, what if Shohia Tani's dog was also a good lawyer? What would you do if Mike Tractor showed up in your foyer? Or is it foyer? Find out on Effectively Wild! Find out on Effectively Wild! Find out on Effectively Wild! Today. Today.

Today. Today.