Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2321: The Seventh-Inning (Dynamic) Stretch

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about an expert’s stance on stretching, whether the White Sox were the funniest team for the new Pope to support, what Paul Skenes signing up for the WBC signifies, an optimistic take on the odds of a lost season, Bud Black’s firing and the dreaded “vote of confidence,” Roki […]

Hello and welcome to Episode 2321 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from FanGraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, rejoined by Meg Raleigh of FanGraphs. Welcome back. Hello. Well, you had a nice time off. We will probably talk about it on an upcoming bonus episode, but we have so much to catch up on. So much baseball or at least baseball podcasting

that you missed. Yeah, I went away and I will admit, Ben, that I thought of you exactly one time in the entire week that I was gone, just the once, but I did feel compelled to message you in that moment, as you know, so I appreciate you covering and I'm happy to be back and baseball, it happened all around us while I was gone,

so many things and then things since then. One of the guests who came on to fill in for you was Adam Auer, who is the major league dietician for the Milwaukee Brewers and also a former minor and major league strength and conditioning coach. And we had a great long conversation in which I somehow neglected to ask him about stretching, which is of course the defining debate of the podcast.

And so I followed up with him via email just to ask where he stands on stretching. I didn't put my thumb on the scale. I told him that it was a subject of some debate between us, but I didn't tell him where I stood or what exactly the disparity was. So he said, the age-old question, ha ha. I don't know if he said it like ha ha, but he typed ha ha in the email.

So it's not just us. We are just a microcosm of the larger debate about stretching. So the age-old question, ha ha. I think that stretching is important, but it's only a portion of the puzzle. I think it's better when it's done actively rather than just sitting and holding positions

for extended periods of time. So this is kind of been what we said that I've mostly condemned static stretching and I will concede that there's some utility to dynamic stretching, more active stretching, even if I don't really do that either. But I think it's better when it's done actively rather than just sitting and holding positions

for extended periods of time. Trigger pointing and end range of motion work are really important to work through the tissue that is tight. So this is getting into granular, really advanced stretching lingo here. Ultimately, some of that tightness comes from weakness. So what are you saying is if you're stretching your weak, I think that is the

takeaway from this email. Ultimately, some of that tightness comes from weakness and it's important to strengthen the surrounding muscles so they can withstand the stress they're put under. Stretching feels good, but there is more at play in an athletic population when it comes to just stretching. And I did ask him if the answer was different for pro athletes than for everyone else,

but that's the only nod that he had to that. So, okay, he didn't say it's a worthless and a waste of our time, which is disappointing to me personally, but he I think kind of came down more or less where we have, which is, it's a part of the process. It's, it's a tool in the toolbox. I've been, I think between the two of us, especially the more reasonable party when it

comes to the value of stretching, which is to acknowledge that it has some utility, but is not the only thing that one ought to do. I feel very vindicated by this answer. I do admire your bravery in sharing it because you could have buried it, Ben, and you didn't do that because you're an honest man. Yeah. There's something I think that each of us can take away from this and we can each read it just colored by our pre-existing conceptions and biases about stretching. Anyway, I suppose if it feels good, that could be reason enough to do it. Things that feel good are good to do sometimes, even if there's no other value to them.

But yeah, it's more about the warm up before the workout, which just seems like it's a big time taker. I won't say time waster, but time taker. And if that takes up a lot of your allotted time for exercise, if you're warming up and cooling down for longer than you're doing the thing, or if the thought of the time investment needed to stretch or stretch before, stretch after, if that prevents you from doing exercise, then I would say that that would be a drawback. But yes, there are different points to consider here.

There's perhaps some use to this, straight from a former major league strength and conditioning coach. I am simply bowing to the power of expertise. And that expertise happens to largely align with my view, which is that it's good to stretch as part of a routine. And yes, you're right, the dynamic stretching, I think, sounds like more useful, just consistent with my experience

and we can score this a win for Meg and move on. Okay. Well, we will continue to follow the science on stretching wherever it leads. Wherever it leads. I don't know if while you were gone, you heard that there's a new pope, did that reach you? So Ben, yes it did.

And I'll say this, I know everyone loves it when people relay their social media posts, but often I will go on vacation. I mean, I don't often go on vacation, but often when I do go on vacation, a thing will happen on the internet. And I just have to pretend to understand it for the rest of my life. You know, I just have to pretend to know who and what a Rizzler is. I still don't know. I don't care to know. Yeah, neither does Julia Louis-Dreyfus. So you're in good company there.

Right. Like I just, I don't know about that. I'm aware that something called the Rizzler exists. Who he don't even know is why that person matters. I don't know. But I have to pretend to have like a greater understanding of it than I do, because one wants to participate in culture, particularly as one ages, you feel the anxiety around your lack of cultural relevance. So that's sort of my normal relationship with the internet when I go on vacation. But here's the thing about that.

You can't do that about the Pope, you know? Like once there's a Pope, that person is, I'm not Catholic, but like is the head of a religion that first of all, many of my family members are participants in. And one of the great faith traditions of this here planet ahead of state. And so you got to know about the Pope, at least a little bit, at least a little bit more than one is obligated to understand the Rissler. And then you come to find out American Pope, Sha King. And then you further find out from Chicago, like, wow,

you know, just like a real victory for the Midwest and its cultural relevance. You realize like how young this Pope is on a relative, you know, on a Pope adjusted basis, right? Exactly. And then you find out, Ben, that he's a baseball fan. Yeah, baseball pope. He is a baseball pope. He went to Nova, which is a knock against him in my opinion as a Bryn Morgrad, but that's fine.

And not only a baseball pope, but a White Sox fan. And footage of the man at a World Series game. That was the best part, yeah. That was the, how, as an aside, like how amazing did that AD feel? Oh my God, the guy, the person in the booth who was just like, I don't know, scan the crowd, who's that? Don't know.

Amazing. Like, truly inspired piece of direction, baseball pope, man, like. Yeah. And that's so exciting momentarily until I forget about it. You know, it's just like really great stuff. Yes, the site of the future pope in the stands in 2005, it kind of erased the sting of the Trump

watching Carlos Beltran strikeout looking in 2006. It's sort of like that. It's like, you know, sign of future events and people who are important to come being pictured at baseball games. And here was the future Pope. Now, if you were following it in real time, there was controversy about his baseball allegiances.

And that was maybe the best part because for a while it was reported that he was a Cubs fan, which would have been a real blow, a bad beat for the White Sox because he is a Southsider, even though he was raised by a Cubs fan and a Cardinals fan, it just, it would have been yet another loss for the White Sox if he had gone Cubs. And then it turned out, no, fake news,

he's actually a White Sox fan and you had his brother weighing in on this. And then it turned out, no, fake news. He's actually a White Sox fan and you had his brother weighing in on this. And the brother was like, you're making too much of this, which is almost certainly true. But it is funny because I was raised Catholic and I'm not observant or a believer and I don't typically follow the guidance of his holiness necessarily, but I think people

got more invested in American Pope and baseball pope specifically than people were already into the conclave because of conclave. But when it then became an American pope, and I realized that though he was born and raised in the US, he of course has not been here for a while. He has been living and ministering abroad for many years. And that is probably a big part of why he became the Pope. But still he's ours, he's our Pope. And there's something sort of special about that.

It kind of humanized him. My colleague, Brian Phillips, wrote about this for the ringer, how it's kind of this combination of, this is actually a pretty important person in the grand scheme. And yet we're all memeing about him and his choice of beverage and food and baseball team. And so I wonder, do you think that the Pope being a White Sox fan was the funniest outcome? Like, was that the funniest fandom that he could

have had? No. What would have been the best for the book? There are two obviously funnier fandoms. The funniest fandom, in my opinion, would have been him being a Colorado Rockies fan. Now, is that being colored by the current ineptitude of the Colorado Rockies? Almost certainly. But so is the White Sox fandom.

That was a big part of it too. Right, because as we've noted, the man witnessed a White Sox World Series win, like in person. I don't remember, which game was it? Did they win the game he was at, that part I didn't. Yes, I think so. I think he was at the clincher.

And that's the thing, it's like, you usually think of the Pontiff as this somewhat remote figure. I mean, obviously, yes, they're hopefully ministering to the poor and the disadvantaged and all of that. And hopefully he will continue that tradition. But, you know, they're in the Vatican. They're wearing these Renaissance era vestments.

They're not speaking English most of the time, you know, if you're an American and you're following this from afar, there's something, you know, and it goes along with the office, right? They're like the vicar of Christ. They're like, you know, the head of the church. They've got a direct line to God,

or you'd think they do, right? And so there should be something sort of removed about them, maybe. And so the idea that it's Pope Bob, and I don't know how many people I've seen express the sentiment that he's the first Pope who has opinions about Scott Pesednik or, you know, insert whatever white socks player you want there. It's just the idea that like he at least grew up before he was called to this, perhaps that he was one of us, more or less,

and that comes down to and extends to his baseball fandom. And so I think the White Sox fandom, that made it even more just because they have suffered so much both currently and historically. But you're right, Rockies would have been- Rockies would be funny. And like in terms of their current predicament, like you could, I suppose, make an argument for either the Marlins or the Athletics, just in terms of who are the downtrodden among

us. But the A's are in second place in the ALS, so maybe they've played their way out of it. The Rockies really only won seven games. That's so crazy. Wow. Wow. Ben, wow. Yeah, you didn't miss many Rockies wins while you were away.

Oh, I was tracking that though. I was paying attention because I was with my family and so they're all Mariners fans. So we did talk a fair amount about the Mariners, but the level of ineptitude we were seeing there is like remarkable, regardless of your particular orientation to a team. That's the thing. There is that rubbernecking aspect to truly terrible teams

where I feel bad for the fans of those teams, but it is tremendous content. I feel bad for the fans of those teams, but it is tremendous content. I feel bad for the players. That too, but it also like, I wouldn't be checking Rocky's box scores as regularly as I am if they were merely run of the mill bad as they have been many times in the past. It's just when you start chasing history or I guess it starts chasing you, then I start paying closer attention than

I would otherwise. It chasing you is, I think, a perfect way to describe the current situation the Rockies find themselves in. I just like, I think of the Pope as being at such a remove that I like, I was like a brother, you know, a human, a human man affiliated with this guy, that's so wild. And then I was like, oh boy, people are gonna be paying so much attention to this brother, I don't know how that's gonna go.

So anyway, I just, it's a baseball pope, that's so fun and funny. I do think though that the White Sox enhances that because they have a reputation at least for being kind of this working class blue collar fandom. And so that's an even stronger contrast to a pope. And so I think that really enhanced it because just imagining him consuming White Sox and content

and perhaps being consumed by it, that's just, it really enhanced that disparity, that differential between the exalted, like, existing on some higher plane and also just being sort of salt of the earth. I don't know that there would that many fandoms that would have been better for that because the White Sox, you know, they're like an original franchise. They've been around forever they maybe have more of a Well a stronger identity perhaps than the Rockies. Let's say where the Rockies Suffering is perhaps a little less acute I mean, they don't go back quite as far and their attendance is always good and they're not

quite as far and their attendance is always good. And they're not, yeah, baseball's not the number one sport in that market. And, and they're just fewer calls for sell the team than there have been in Oakland, certainly, or Pittsburgh or gosh, even, even Chicago with Reinsdorf, maybe, yeah. And so it just feels like Rockies fans are stressing a little less. I did have a Rocky slash White Sox fan on While You Were Gone as well. We did quite a few things, but it just feels like, you know, they're a little less downtrodden than White Sox fans have been.

And so I think that maybe enhances it for me more so than if he had been a Rockies fan. That would have been funny too, but I think White Sox fan, that tops Rockies fan for me more so than if he had been a Rockies fan. That would have been funny too, but I think White Sox fan that tops Rockies fan for me. Mets fan might have been amusing. I think that would have led to a lot of memes. Not that there's any shortage of Mets memes as it is, but just the idea that the Mets are cursed in some tragicomic way and that perhaps the Pope could lift that curse somehow.

You have an inn maybe with the almighty, like that would have led to some good content, I think. So Metz fan Pope would have been good, but I think White Sox fan Pope is, is right up there really, just the history, the tradition of that team and also its present state, its fallen state. You can, I think you've convinced me because yeah, you're right that there was a time when him being a Mets fan would have been very funny, but it isn't, it's not this time. That's not where we're sitting with that franchise.

The Mets have, they're tied for the best record in baseball. So they have won Soto. They've got Steve Cohen. You can't be, the Mets are the Pope, Ware and Gucci loafers of baseball teams at this point. And I don't say that's to knock the Mets. I mostly say that to knock prior Popes. But that's not where it's sitting. That's not where we are right now.

I think you're right that there is a longevity to the White Sox that lends itself to sort of an institutional comparison to the papacy, but also yeah, that there is a salt of the earth quality and then a current tragedy. You know, when Bauman wrote about this, he made the point that one cannot bring the Almighty to bear on the record of your favorite team. I mean, you can as a normal person, but it seems like an abuse of one's power for the Pope to do that. We have real crises all around us, humanitarian concerns that far outweigh the suffering of those who are like really having to watch a lot of Andrew Vaughn, you know, that's not so bad. It's just, that's just a guy. I can't

say it with complete confidence, but I, I would hazard the guess that the current Pope is a man who like, he has an opinion about Jerry Rynestorff, right? He has to, like what? Yeah, you'd think. You would think. And I've never been able to say that about a pope before, you know, I've never been able to say that about a pope. That's, that's beautiful, I think.

And I guess that's one of the things that makes Jesus's story inspiring to some people, is that, you know, according to the canon, he was both divine and human. He was experiencing the struggles that anyone would, in addition to being the Son of God, knowing what he was destined for and yet being apprehensive about it, as any regular person would be. And so Leo XIV, Pope Bob, he is also experiencing both the most mundane concerns and perhaps the most exalted.

And here's another thing that I'll say about Pope Bob, being a baseball pope. I assumed until I did a little late Googling when I was editing Bauman's piece that like, are people comfortable calling him Pope Bob? I feel a little weird doing that because I'm not Catholic, but Leo the whatever, it's like that seems like a lot too. So I assumed that Pope Bob had like majored in religion or something at Nova. No, no, Pope Bob got a math degree from Nova. His bachelor's is in math.

So Pope Bob, baseball pope, might also have analytics opinions. I'm just saying like- Come on, Effectively Wild. Oh my God, can you imagine? What would we even, I would feel nervous about that interview. First of all, the time zones alone would be such a trouble,

but I'm not even like, you know, again, I'm not a particular, I'm not a religious person, but I don't feel like we should talk to the Pope, you know? I think that that's not for us. What are you gonna ask him about a haunted pool? Are you kidding? Wow. It would be kind of fun to remember some guys

with the Pope though, to be like, you know. Yeah. I'm sure he'd have opinions about hauntings and spirits and such. But what if, but Ben, it would be devastating to my ego if we had the Pope on the podcast. And then we were like, you know, do you have opinions about analytics?

And he did, but he was just like, I just don't think a fifth base war is the way to go. What would we do? Devastating. That wouldn't be an ex cathedra statement. I guess he wouldn't be speaking infallibly, probably in that moment. He'd be probably his, his personal opinion. So we wouldn't have to take it as doctrine. I have a Pope logistical question and then we can move on. But yeah, so like, is it, is it like when you're, you're going to be on the record or off the record where you have to, you know, you sort of have to declare in advance, you can't like say a bunch of stuff and then be like, oh, by the way, that was off the record. That's not how. Right.

So is he like, does he have to be careful? Is it, is the base state when you're the pope that like you're in word of God mode? Or, or is the base state that you're being Pope Bob? And then you have to be like, okay, we're going on the official God record now. Like, is that how to all of our Catholic listeners, if I'm not, I'm being, I'm being silly. I'm trying to do a goop. I'm not trying to be offensive. And if I am, I'm sorry. But also Pope Bob, come on, we gotta,

I feel weird about it, but I gotta say it. Pope Bob, it sounds so annoying. He's a Bears fan probably. That's wild. You have to specify when you're making an ex catheter student. I think, yes, it's from the chair. I don't know if he has to literally sit in the chair.

I think, you know, it's the chair of St. Peter. It's more of a symbolic thing probably, but yeah. They're Catholics, so like symbolism is important. Yes, the default I think is not necessarily that he is infallible in all of his pronouncements. You can't abuse that privilege or you could. Well, sure. I mean, that would be.

Yeah. Anyway, we all had fun for a day or two there on social media, which is not something you can say every week. So that was nice. By the way, Julia Louis-Dreyfus's statement about the Rizzler, whom she met at a premiere or a screening of Thunderbolts, was, no offense to the nice child. I didn't know who he was.

Which is the new- I love her so much. Me too. She's the best, but it's the new Kiki Palmer. Sorry to this man. No offense to the nice child. No offense to the nice child. Did the Rizzler know who she was? I think so, yes. Okay.

Yes. Okay. Cause like, he's, so he's a child. Is he still a child? Was he? Yeah, I guess he's perhaps an adolescent now. Yeah, he's like a preteen maybe. Yeah.

But I'm just saying, like, is he watching Seinfeld reruns? He's probably not watching Veep. Hey, she's in Thunderbolts. She's the queen. She's in Thunderbolts? Yeah. Big MCU figure these days. She is?

Suddenly you're not so high on her anymore. No, I, look, here's, I am pro Julie Louise Riefes. I am in a cash those checks lady. That's fine. You do whatever you want. No, no judgment from me. I'm just like shocked that people say Thunderbolts is good or do they? Yeah. Yeah. It is. Wow. The Rizzlers nine. I would not have known that. He's only nine? I feel uncomfortable.

See there things about the Rizzler. We shouldn't know about nine year olds. You know? He looks older. Anyway, No offense to the nice child. I didn't know how old he was. We shouldn't be aware of nine year olds unless we're related to them. We just shouldn't. That's none of my business.

So non-papal baseball news. Paul Skeens has been announced as a member of next year's WBC roster. I know. That's exciting. A lot can happen between now and next March, but just the willingness, the fact, I'm not suggesting. His elbow could explode between now and then, but.

I wasn't gonna say it. Maybe I was thinking it, but yeah. Yeah, we hope that his arm and the rest of him will be intact, but just the fact that he is willing to do that seems like a change. And I don't know if it's just that he wants to experience run support, however fleetingly,

like maybe he wants to know what it's like to have a lineup behind him and bullpen support, et cetera. But this does seem to represent a change from 2023, when the USWBC staff was mostly Cardinals or ex-Cardinals, not the kind who just elected Pope Leo, but Lance Lynn, Adam Wainwright, Miles Michaelis, Merrill Kelly, Kyle Freeland, those were our best and brightest that we were sending to the WBC.

I know Clayton Kershaw wanted to play and then there was insurance issues, but he was not quite know Clayton Kershaw wanted to play, and then there was insurance issues, but he was not quite peak Clayton Kershaw even then. So the fact that Skeens wants to do this, that suggests to me that the WBC has really come up in the world. And the fact that, as we discussed, Aaron Judge is all in now and becomes the captain after not playing last time, which was shortly after he

signed that big contract and he wanted to prioritize that. But it seems like the WBC has now attained the status after the success of 2023 and the exciting finals and just how into it everyone was that now even a top pitcher wants to play despite the perceptions of risk. a top pitcher wants to play despite the perceptions of risk. That's really exciting, I think, for that event. I agree. I think it's great. I felt like the last time around, the position player talent, very deep,

but you could tell that the pitching was really still kind of a sore spot. And I don't think that's unique to the American team. The pitching depth in the WBC is just shallower to begin with. I know, you know, some clubs had a much better representation, but I don't think we're alone in being a little light. But yeah, it's, it's nice. I think that it speaks to how the last event was received, probably how like players are

talking about their experience of the WBC among themselves. I imagine that that has something to do with it, where guys are like, you know, this was a good time and I felt away about it and, you know, thought that it was cool. There's going to be FOMO now if you don't go. I think that that might be right. So I think it's a pretty cool development. I hope that not to be a downer. I do have skepticism about what the state of international play based in the United States

might look like in the coming years, but assuming that that isn't a gating factor. Love WBC. Love it. Love a Skeens fronted team USA rotation. Fantastic. Yeah. It's great. And I guess it maybe reflects that Skeens, he's kind of willing, it seems to take on the mantle of face of starting pitching. I know that there are other excellent, you don't think so? No, I don't think. Just look, I thought that we had a very nice conversation with Paul Skeens. I thought that he was a very thoughtful guy. And I also got the sense that if he never had to talk to another reporter ever again,

he would be thrilled with that prospect. So I think that he is in a weird, good sweet spot for him though, because there is just, he is super talented and he is in a relationship with someone who is very famous in her own right, and seemingly much more comfortable with the being upfront and on a red carpet and doing stuff, stuff. And so I think that he gets to like, he gets to be great at his job

and also sort of exist in the Libby Dunn halo. And so he will be famous and upfront without probably having to do a whole lot. And so maybe it's fine, but I do not, he does not strike me as someone who's like raring to go and be a super public guy. Photosuits in weird outfits, sure, but I don't know how much like chit chatting

he's really keeping on. It's true. He's not exactly seeking the spotlight or publicity, I don't know how much chit-chatting he's really keeping on. Right. It's true. He's not exactly seeking the spotlight or publicity, but I don't think he's shying away from it because I think he realizes that it's going to be shined on him whether he likes it or not. And he's not saying, no, I don't want this responsibility. I think even if he's not perfectly wired that way, like, you know, I think he wants to be a leader in some respects.

Like, he's a player rep. Like, he's on the, not even just a player rep, he's on, like, the subcommittee for the Players Association. And he said to Hannah Kaiser, who wrote about him for the Ringer this spring, whether I like it or not, I think I'm in a position of leadership in Major League Baseball. Guys are going to listen to me, so I think it's better to lean into it

and have a position rather than kind of hiding from it. And he's talking more there about internally within the fraternity of baseball players than in a public facing way, I suppose. But I think he understands that, yeah, she also talked to him a little bit about the expectations for starting pitchers, and he wants to be kind of a throwback and throwing a lot of innings and everything

to the extent that you can in this era. So I'm just saying, you know, maybe he is at least willing to embrace the kind of Captain America, yeah, on the face of starting pitching. And look, there are a lot of other good starting pitchers out there and we'll see again where things stand next spring. But obviously the hype and the expectations for him essentially surpassed anyone else's.

So I think he understands what comes with that territory. Yes. I think that he appears to take his position and prominence within the sport quite seriously and is a willing participant in that regard. Whether he wants to be the guy who is like in a McDonald's commercial, I don't know. And that's fine. I mean, I wouldn't want to be famous, seems terrible. Speaking of future seasons and Players Association and also Hannah Kaiser,

Hannah wrote something for her excellent new substack with Zach Kreiser, which is not called Kaiser and Kreiser, much to my disappointment, but is called the bandwagon. And I'm not disappointed by the substact itself. I subscribe, I recommend it, but she wrote last week about what she thinks will happen in the next CBA negotiation, and this was not citing experts or authorities or anything.

It was just sort of her own gut feeling as someone who reports on baseball and talks to people and reported directly on the last labor negotiations and everything else. Just kind of what her intuition is, whether we're going to miss games in 2027. And I guess the 2026 WBC with that specter looming over it, you know, maybe that'll feel like, ah, let's enjoy this while we can because who knows what will happen next year. But Hannah struck sort of a positive optimistic note, just kind of reading the tea leaves.

She doesn't think that we're gonna miss games in 2027. And she thinks that largely because of the incentives at play for Rob Manfred. She thinks that Rob Manfred's legacy is at stake here, which is certainly true, because he said that he intends to retire after the 2028 season when his term is up in January 2029. And who knows, he could always go back on that. But if he really wants to walk away, then I think he does want to burnish his legacy, which has been burnished to some extent

by the new rules and everything. But also there's other stuff that has not reflected so well on him. And it will be kind of make or break, I think what happens over the next few years. And whether there is a serious work stoppage that actually costs us games and a season, that's a pretty big deal when it comes

to determining his legacy. Because if a lost season or even a fractional season is right in the rear view mirror when he is walking away, that's gonna be high on the top of his baseball obits. And right now he likes to brag about the fact is walking away, that's gonna be high on the top of his baseball obits. And right now he likes to brag about the fact that games have not been canceled during his tenure. And of course we can quibble with that

because 2020 happened and the season was shortened and it probably would have been shortened one way or another because of COVID, but perhaps it wouldn't have been shortened quite as much as it was, if not for the standoff that happened there. Nonetheless, he is making that a peg of his platform for his legacy. And so I don't think he would want to go out that way.

Also, he has really planted a flag in the media rights. And in 2028, let's sell a national rights package. Let's get baseball on a firm footing when it comes to weathering the cable bubble bursting. Right. And if he's able to do that, well, that would be pretty important. That would really be a triumph if he actually leaves the sports feeling like it's financial and publicity future is fairly secure.

And so again, that would be pretty seriously endangered, one would think, because the current deals with TBS and Fox expire in 2028 and MLB's hoovering up all of these local rights as well, and potentially with an eye toward packaging them together. If the entire 2027 season were lost, for instance, and if there were a 1994-esque backlash to that, well, that's going to seriously impair the league's ability to get a good deal. I mean, that's going to hurt its negotiating leverage significantly.

So Hannah thinks just looking at those larger incentives at stake that those would kind of undercut the league's resolve to really push for a salary cap, which obviously the owners have wanted forever and they still want, and I'm sure they will at least attempt to get yet again. But whether they really stick to that, that's going to determine how bad this is going to get. I think, and whether the players are firm in their resolve to oppose that, of course also.

But if the owners just kind of pay lip service to that idea, but really think, okay, let's keep this flame alive, but this isn't really the time to just go to the mats for this because of all these other things. Not that the other owners necessarily care about Rob Manfred's select seat, but they certainly care about broadcast rights. And so maybe I think Hannah has a point there that does give me some hope that that will make them more amenable to compromise. I also think it'll matter how much perceived resolve there is on the union's part going

into the negotiation. Because here's what I, this I firmly believe. I think that if the owners feel that they have a pretty good chance of breaking the union the way that the owners in the NBA and the NFL did successfully, that they will sacrifice a season to that end. Because over the long term, it has the potential to be very lucrative for them. It's already lucrative for them, right? But if they were able to finally institute a salary cap, I think they would gladly sacrifice a season for that project. But I think that what we saw in the last CBA negotiation, what we saw in 2020 during COVID was that there is a good bit more resolve in the union than they were being

given credit for. Some of that is down to personnel changes within the actual negotiation team. I know there's been some scuffling around that in the last two years, but that stuff seems to have largely resolved itself, at least at this juncture, I guess we'll see, but that stuff seems to have resolved and to have resolved in the favor of parties within the union who are committed to holding the line. So it'll be really interesting. I think that they would have to feel, they being the owners, would have to feel very, very confident that

they can get the union to the point of breaking to lose a whole season. I don't think they care too terribly much about losing games, particularly early in the year. The gate isn't as good most places in the first month of the season, which is often just a function of weather and kids still being in school. But I think that they see some amount of wiggle when it comes to that stuff. How that interplays with the TV stuff, I haven't thought through.

I think Hannah's right to note that if they get themselves in a spot where they are really teed up for a very good national deal, particularly if the league is in control of more of the rights, that there might be a firmer hand given from the league office about like, hey, we want to maintain the viability of this contract. But I don't know. It's hard for me to decide how much of a change I think there has actually been in the rhetoric on the owner's part. We've had instances in the last couple months of owners basically saying like, oh yeah, I think we should institute a salary cap. But that's always been the position of ownership. That isn't a departure. Maybe they're saying it in public a little bit

more than they used to, but I don't know that that's even really true. And I don't think that they are completely unified as a group in terms of where they think it makes sense to restrict stuff. Like we saw reporting this week that Dick Monfort not only wants a salary cap, but he wants to cap spending on non-player salary stuff too, right? That he wants to limit how much teams might be able to spend on front office personnel and technology. And there's going to be some appetite for something like that from other cheap owners, but not from all of them, right? As we've discussed, like there are plenty of teams that run low payrolls, but I think rightly understand that if they invest in other areas off field, you

know, you can get a lot of really great insight and production and scouting done on like what it costs to sign a good middle reliever. And you can, you can invest without really investing in player salary. I still think that, you know that you should try to go get good free agents, but there are teams that I think see the very obvious value proposition in some of this other stuff, which I only bring up. We don't need to say more mean things about the Rockies, although we can, because boys, they're a list.

But only to say that the way that ownership views this stuff isn't completely in line. We tend to analyze the likelihood of games lost through the lens of how strong is the union? How much solidarity are they going to show? How long can they endure a stoppage? But there is a relevant question about how the different parts of the ownership groups view payroll and other spending and that kind of stuff. It's not a completely unified front. There are factions. So it's a weird spot, like morally for people like you and me, because I think it's safe to say that like we support the efforts of

the union. We think it's right that workers recoup financial benefit from their work and that the split should be more equitable. And we don't want there to be a salary cap. We don't find that necessary. It's good that there be a strong MLB Players Association. We also are self-interested and like losing games and having a protracted lockout is like not great for business Now I'm I don't know what I'm not even doing Chicago Like I can't I'm not gonna insult you by saying that that the Jimmy Stewart pitch perfect the Chicago Requires a long runway, you know, I got a go a couple of times before I get remotely close. So I'm not going to do it.

I kind of sound like I'm from New Jersey. That's not right either. But all of that to say, I prefer there being baseball to there not being baseball. I'm mindful of what it does to the site to not have baseball. It wasn't a super awesome time, you know, that was stressful, but I don't think that like the ad rates that Fangrass gets to enjoy is a good reason for the union to like roll over

on a salary cap, so there's that. Yeah, yeah, that reporting about Monfort potentially wanting to limit non-player spending, that's been kind of in the ether for a couple years too, maybe not tied to Monfort specifically, but I remember Evandrelik and Ken Rosenthal reporting about that sentiment among owners back in 2023. I guess Monfort has been kind of one of the main owners

in negotiations, so it's not probably surprising that he would also be sticking to that line. But yeah, the division among owners, I think one thing you could also say could weaken the owner's position is that they might need the players to sign off on something potentially. If they want to get a big national package done,

then they might need concessions. They might need the players to approve such a package. And so the players might have another big bargaining chip that they could use there. Like it's been very helpful for them to be able to dangle, say, extra playoff rounds or playoff games, which unfortunately for us, because we don't necessarily always want that. But that's one of the things that they have in their quiver. And this could be beneficial for them too, just the idea that the owners are thinking,

okay, we might need sign off from them to get some sort of package done here. So we can only push them so far here, or maybe the players can extract that in exchange for something else. The owners might also be divided when it comes to a salary cap. And you'd think that that would weaken their bargaining position.

The fact that there would be internal discord, it's not just owners as a unified front versus players, but also big market owners versus smaller market owners, et cetera. That was also kind of the case in 1994, though, too. And that doesn't necessarily preclude a long work stoppage and game cancellations. But yeah, lots of things that play here and I don't really want to dwell on the prospect of losing games two years from now because if that happens, we'll have plenty of time to talk about it. But you know, I don't want to be a doomer about it.

I brought this up just because this was a non-doomer perspective that I think is also informed and sensible in my mind. So if you're looking for something to cling to, then there's that. For now, we can focus on 2025. And we did already talk about the Rockies a bit while you were away, so we don't have to talk too much more about them now, but they did fire Bud Black finally. And I say that not as someone who was out here

stumping for Bud Black to be fired, but it was improbable that he had lasted as long as he had. I think he was the fourth longest tenured manager in the majors after, which is kind of good. Even that, it is kind of incredible. Cause it's like Kevin Cash, Brian Snitker and Dave Roberts, I think were the top three and then Bud Black. And these are teams that like one world series

during that span, if not multiple world series or were at least in contention. In the world series? Yeah, or around the World Series, you know, in the playoffs and like playing meaningful games. And Bud Black was too a long time ago, but things have changed since then. And it's just like for him to survive as long as he did is kind of incredible. And we said that before the start of the season.

And I think that was a subject of the Rockies preview segment, but the fact that he managed to enter the start to this season, by the way, I wasn't saying that Bud Black was in the World Series, just, you know, the Rockies were in contention during his tenure, early in his tenure. And then falling as far as they have. It was just a classic textbook vote of confidence situation. I love the vote of confidence.

Just, you know, every now and then there is a vote of confidence that doesn't actually immediately proceed of hiring, but it happens so often. And I guess it makes sense that it would because you're not gonna be in a position to issue a vote of confidence unless the circumstances suggest

that there should be a lack of confidence. And so until you actually fire the guy, well, you're not gonna hint that you might fire him. I mean, you kind of have to stick with like, yeah, he's our guy until he's not your guy. And yet sometimes the turnaround between those two stances is so rapid. I think it was the day before he got fired

that Rocky's GM, Bill Schmidt backed Bud Black and told the Denver Post, let's see, I'll read the actual quote here. I think our guys are still playing hard and that's what I look at. Guys are working hard every day. They come with energy for the most part. I don't think we are.

And then there's like a brackets at that point of firing black. So he didn't exactly say those words, but that's what he was asked. And he denied that they were at that point of firing, but black guys still believe in what we were doing and where we are headed. We are all frustrated.

And that was, I guess, around the time of Kyle Freeland's very frank quote. And this is a guy who grew up in the area, has been in this organization for his whole career. And was basically like, yeah, other teams are doing it right and we're doing it wrong and we're bad at everything. He just didn't really hold back to his credit. And so he didn't seem

to still believe in what they're doing, although he did then urge people to continue to follow the Rockies and believe in the Rockies, but it sounded like he had lost a lot of faith himself anyway to then pivot to firing Bud Black. And there was a 21-0, nothing, drubbing in between those two things. So that was bad. And then this was a case of the Rockies actually winning their final game with Bud Black at the helm.

I think I did a stat blast once about the rate at which teams fire their managers following losses after wins, and it is rarer for the firing to come after a win, and that's what happened here. So, hey, he got to go out on top, but still, this was just, you know, textbook. Next time someone asked me for an example of the dreaded vote of confidence,

the reason why that's something that should scare you, it's this, it's going from, we're not at the point of firing but black. And technically they weren't, I guess. They were a day away from firing him. Right. I imagine that, like, I don't know, Bud Black, who could know the heart of a man, but I would imagine that if you're Bud Black, you woke up every day before you were fired, feeling like you had just brushed up against a ghost and it was like the spirit of your

own career. It was just like, it was a matter of time. There's been futility before, right? But there hasn't quite been this. This is a new condition, even for the Rockies. And I think that managers probably know that they are quite often going to be the first domino to fall. I won't even call it a sacrificial lamb because like this is bad baseball team.

And I am sympathetic to the argument that you know, Bud Black didn't build this roster. Bud Black doesn't own the team. He doesn't dictate payroll. He's not in charge of player development, but he is the manager. You know, the notion that one can have a team this bad and the manager is wholly innocent of any blame is absurd, right? So do I think that this is going to like shift the fortunes of the Colorado Rockies either in the short term or the long term? I absolutely do not think that. But I also don't think that Bud Black was shifting the fortunes of the Rockies one way or the other as an employee of the club either. So I have a sympathy for anyone who loses their job, particularly when the bulk of the blame might not be able to be laid at their feet. But I also think that big league managers probably know that this is a potentiality when they take a job and the club is a club like the Rockies, honestly, another team might have jettisoned him much earlier.

I think that one of the failings of the Monforts, and that list isn't necessarily a short one, but one of their primary failings is, you could call it loyalty, maybe it's a lack of imagination when it comes to non-player personnel that manifests in obvious nepotism, but also just in a lot of the folks who stick around that team are there for a long, long time. And Monfort has his folks and he leaves them be. And he doesn't look beyond, you know, the greater Denver area when it comes to filling important roles. This is something that we have talked about at length when, you know, they were getting ready

to have a new general manager. Obviously, he brought his own kids into the fold. And I think that if Bud Black had worked for almost any other club with the possible, weirdly with the possible exceptions of the exception of the White Sox, because Reinsdorf is also like a big loyalty guy, he takes care of his people to a fault that he probably would have been on the curb a long time ago. So, yeah, it is in the abstract, a quality we would praise, but when things are going badly, it does seem like his tenure there, his job security was a symptom of how the Rockies got into this position in the first place. And so, yeah, replacing him with Warren Schaeffer, good luck, Warren.

Yeah. It's certainly not on its own a sign of sweeping change or anything, and I'm skeptical that that will be coming, but it was at least a necessary first step to acknowledge that, hey, maybe we can't keep doing the same thing and expect better results. So there will have to be additional dominoes falling for me to think that, oh, they have finally realized the error of their ways here, but it was at least, yeah, the

first that had to fall. So I doubt Bud Black was shocked. I doubt he was completely taken by surprise here. But yeah, to suggest that the manager is never at all responsible, well, why even have a manager at that point, I guess, unless you think, oh, he's just a mouthpiece and it's just symbolic when you fire a manager, it lights a fire under the players, it sends the signal that we know that things aren't going great right now.

It helps solidify the job of the GM and everyone. And it takes a little pressure off of the manager's superiors, even if they're the ones who hired him to say, okay, a head rolled, and are you appeased? Now our heads won't have to roll at least for a little while. So, oh, that definitely goes into it. But yeah, when you stagnate and go backward to the degree that the Rockies have, then no one's hands are clean. Right. And I think it's a tricky thing because we've talked a lot about how so much of what managers do and so much of the value that they contribute, you know, it happens behind closed doors.

It's stuff that we're really not in a great position to assess. You know, I'm sure that there are managers who are universally beloved, maybe, but you also, I think, can't even generalize necessarily within the, say, the player population or the coaching staff. There have been times where a manager who I had high regard for, I thought it was pretty silly when the Mariners fired Scott Service. I had a high opinion of Scott Service. I think he was well liked by many members of that clubhouse. But we talked to Ryan DeVish and it was clear that that was true for a lot of guys, but he wasn't resonating with some other members of that clubhouse. And some of those folks were really important players. It sounded like things weren't going super great between him and Julio at a certain point. So you can't even say like, oh, well, he was universally beloved because there's probably,

you know, no boss is liked by everybody. So it's just a, it's a tricky thing. It's a hard thing for us to assess from the outside to a point. And then it's like, hey, this team sucks too. So, and he's been, he's had a lot of chances to turn it around and that hasn't happened. So maybe it's time for the, the funny thing about it is that you always end up in this. Um, and maybe this is the, the way that the critique really lands with Colorado is that you always end up with this weird, uh, interregnum or I guess in the case of the Mariners, they just named Dan Wilson their manager, which I thought was weird too,

but you often end up with this interregnum where someone who was in the organization is just like handed the reins. So you don't have difference. And then in the, in the case of Colorado, I think we can very legitimately wonder how earnest an outside search is this club going to do, this club that doesn't tend to do that. In that respect, maybe you can just criticize the franchise where it's like, okay, yeah, you can make this change and it's a defensible move, but also are you going to commit to a path where you are bringing in an actual fresh voice

and a real new perspective, someone who can shake things up in a meaningful way? And they haven't really shown a willingness to do that, at least historically. So I'm a little skeptical on that score, but. Yep, me too. And I mentioned this on an outro last week, but the firing of Derek Shelton

and the accompanying messaging by the Pirates more galling to me, maybe, just because the Bob Nutting, quote, the other Bob who made news, he said something to the effect of like, we have to act with urgency now. Like, you know, we have to actually win and get aggressive. And it was just a very much, you know, like we're all looking for the guy who did this sort of situation. And if you're not showing that urgency and aggressiveness and you're not investing in that roster

and putting it in a position of success, and then you're just elevating the longtime bench coach and right-hand man of Derek Shelton and Don Kelly, and he's a different human being, and he may run the ship differently. But still, it's not like an outside voice or someone who's probably gonna enact sweeping changes. And so that felt very much like, well, what did you expect to happen here? Right.

And yeah, and there were more hopes for the pirates coming into the season than there were for the Rockies, which is to say that there were any hopes at all for the Pirates. And there were certainly hopes entering the off season for the Pirates, which were muted somewhat after they more or less sat out the off season. And then Jared Jones got heard and other guys got heard. And it was like, what did you think Derek Shelton could possibly accomplish here?

But I imagine Derek Shelton might have been thinking to himself, gosh, Bud Black managed to outlast me in this role. Like, what does that guy know? So, yeah, I don't know. Not that he was rooting for Bud Black to suffer the same fate, but perhaps he thought, ah, well, at least that guy got it too. It's not just me, because I don't know how he's holding onto his job. Yeah, yeah.

I imagine there was perhaps a bit of consternation around it. It's a, I don't know. It's a tough game. It's so funny. I had no impression of Shelton as a manager. Zero. Like neither good nor bad. Complete non-entity to me, which made the firing surprising because I was like, Oh, has he been bad at this this whole time? And I was just like unaware of it. I was like, we're in my only watching Paul skein starts in terms of the Who could say Yeah, that describes my pirates spectating this season. That's probably a lot of people's so just a couple other things sticking with the NL West

Roki Sasaki just wanted to make a quick point about him. It has not gone great for him. And I think everyone was aware and the Dodgers were aware that he was a work in progress. Though I thought of that more in terms of they could put the finishing touches on him. They could elevate him. They could polish his approach, et cetera.

Then like they have to fix him now. Like it's just not working at all. He's been sort of sub replacement level. I think the way in which he has failed thus far, and it's only eight starts and it's only 34 and a third innings, which I guess is part of the problem, It's only eight starts and it's only 34 and a third innings, which I guess is part of the problem, but that he has failed in this way where he's not missing bats. Like he's not getting strikeouts. I think, you know, it wasn't entirely unpredictable that there might be some commands problems

and certainly there've been some control problems. Just nothing has gone well really for him. And that's reflected in the peripherals even more so than the ERA. But I thought at least there would be whiffs because that's something he always had. And gosh, he hasn't even had that. So among the 133 pitchers with at least 30 innings pitched this season, he is 104th in zone rate. So that's just the rate at which he's throwing pitches

inside the rule book strike zone. So 104th out of 133. And that could work potentially if you're Blake's nailing it, if you're getting guys to chase constantly, then you could live like that. But he's also 98th in contact rate. And what I mean by that is, you know, in a bad way for pitchers.

Like he's had a high contact rate and that I did not predict. I thought that whatever else happens, that there would be wildness, there'd be inconsistency, but he'd at least be able to get swings and misses, and he has not. And maybe those similar rankings go hand in hand because he's just been out of the strike zone, and thus he is not inducing chases,

but that's part of the reason he's not really fooling people. And I think everyone knew that his fastball was not his strong suit, it was not his calling card, and the Velo has not come back. That was reportedly the one question that he put to all the teams that were making presentations to him. How do I throw harder again? And he's not, he's sitting 96

and the fastball shape doesn't seem to be spectacular. And so if you don't have an extraordinary shape and you don't have top of the scale speed either, then that's not great. And maybe just the lack of success of the fastball, everything else playing off that, he's just not getting people to chase and whiff at everything else that he throws.

But yeah, it's just been, you know, I'm not saying that I have doubts that he will manage to put it all together at some point. He is still just 23 years old. But still, yeah, this has not been quite the coup in the short term for the Dodgers that signing Roki Sasaki seemed to be. I mean, I think it does need to be something of an input to your how risky you think he is. Right. I think there are a couple of scenarios. You know, one is that like, and I say this not knowing anything that maybe he is like a

little dinged up in a way that isn't hasn't been announced, right? Maybe there's something going on that is preventing the Velo from coming back. The fact that the Velo hasn't rebounded is I think the part that's actually the most concerning to me because to your point, it just gives him so little margin for error when it comes to that fastball. If I have confidence in any team to be able to help him figure out

some of the fastball shape stuff, it would be the Dodgers, but they'd be one of a handful of clubs where I'm like, okay, they can probably help him sort that out, but we kind of thought they would help him sort that out. And the piece of it that is going to be potentially uncomfortable for him and the club is that if they need to do a wholesale tear down and reappraisal of the arsenal, it's going to be really hard for them to do that at the big league level.

So it's like, do you option him? Like do you send him down so that you can do developmental work with this guy? Like is it to the point that you think that is necessary? I don't know the answer to that. I think it's kind of an overreaction at this stage, but like the Velo isn't there and like that fastball is bad. It's bad. The splitter, you know, depends on the model you're looking at, but like his

splitter still plays, still grades out really well, but like the fastball is bad. And the other thing that I've been kind of surprised by is like how useless his slider has been, just like not grading out well at all. So I don't know what you do with him right now because we can say in a way that I don't offer with judgment, but just based on how he talked about interacting with the media before he signed the way that he clearly responded to failure in his first couple of starts. This seems like a guy who is taking all of that stuff very personally. And so I think that if you're the Dodgers, you do have to thread this needle where you don't want to not intervene and have it spiral in a way that is sort of deleterious for him long-term. But I think you also need to be mindful

that he seems like he's someone who is taking all of this very personally and maybe an intervention has the opposite effect of what you want. And they're gonna be better positioned to know where that line is than obviously we are. But it's like, clearly this is a guy where it matters to him

that this isn't going well. I hope that I'm talking about it with greater sensitivity than some former big leaguers, but I do think that that has to be like, that has to be part of how they think about this stuff, right, and what their approach is to helping him course correct. And then you have to layer on top of all of that,

the fact that like, there was just always likely going to be an adjustment for this guy because he's super young, he's coming over to a new league, a new place, and a new baseball. And that takes adjustment. So it's like, how do you, if you're the Dodgers, differentiate between the stuff that is, there needs to be actual baseball intervention here versus there needs to be time to adapt. This is always going to be an issue when you have to do it at the big league level. It's not like he gets to just go down to triple A and figure it out for a little while against hitters that aren't awesome, he has

to do it against the NL West apart from anyone else. So that's a part of this challenge also, which is just there's so little margin for error and there might be more if you're in Rancho or whatever. I'm not saying they should send him to Loay, but there might be more if you're in Rancho or whatever. I'm not saying they should send them to Loey, but it's a steep learning curve for anyone. And it is a steep learning curve when you're adapting to a whole new league and country and baseball and schedule and the whole nine. So I hope it works out. I'm not sure that I'm necessarily downgrading my confidence, but I do think you have to allow for there having been maybe greater risk

here than we necessarily first appreciated. And I want to talk about the bidets again instead. And so I hope that it gets sorted because that's a way more fun story than having to fret about I hope that it gets sorted because that's a way more fun story than like having to fret about like how this is washing over a 23 year old. And you know, I don't know, like he's, he came into the season, the top prospect in baseball and as an aside, like I don't want to go too far in the other direction either. Like I think it's easy to underreact from a place of like entrenchment or whatever, but it's also easy to overreact like I saw that splitter man that splitter Excuse the swear. It's fucking amazing when it's working, but it is not it's he can't be a one-pitch guy off of that pitch

I think we're seeing with great confidence because it's not like the splitter isn't Grading out well, but you're right with the lack of whiffs. It's just like whoa, dude Yeah, so I have concern about how the immediate, like kind of short term figuring it out unfolds because I do think there is like a delicacy here. Not that he's delicate. I don't mean it like that, but like it is a situation that I think requires finesse. That's a better word. And if there is an org that can help him figure this out, I'd put it to the Dodgers, the Brewers,

the Guardians, maybe the Mariners. That's it. So he's with the right people to sort this, but there might come like an uncomfortable, oh, isn't your, don't you need to go down for a little while? Like, aren't you, isn't your elbow barking a little bit, Roky? Shouldn't you go be on the developmental list? Roky Yes, wouldn't put that past the Dodgers. But yes, I would think that long term, I still believe in him, assuming he has his health, which I don't necessarily have confidence in, but nor do I think.

He's a pitcher. Yeah, exactly. And the Dodgers pitcher, I don't think the Dodgers are worse at managing that than other teams. I think they just have pitchers who are liable to get hurt and they definitely aren't able to prevent that clearly. So yes, anyway, I think, yeah, our listeners are just demanding more bidet talk.

That is exactly what they want. Please talk about Roki Sasaki's preference in toilets. Let that wash over us. But I think really it was the- Wash over them. Exactly. Yeah, the expectation was that, well, hey, he'll just be part of their six starter

rotation and big deal if there's some growing pains and adjustments, he'll just be, you know, they have so many guys they could afford to skip a turn or whatever. He doesn't have to go deep into games. And as it's worked out, that hasn't really been the case. Of course, they have Gonsolin back and they're about to have Kershaw back, which is fun, but they haven't been so deep in the active rotation that they could just say, yeah, yeah, whatever, he'll get it together at some point, but they are still in first place. So in that sense, they can. And in Roki Sasaki's last start, I did enjoy seeing just a hint of petty Otani, which we don't see all that often.

We see his personality, we see his being fired up, we see his prankster jokester personality. But Petty Otani is not something that we see all that often, but there seemed to be a sign of that when he appeared to mimic and mock a home run celebration of Lourdes Guerriel Jr. of the Diamondbacks, who in that game that Sasaki started, he wasn't sharp as per usual, but the Dodgers were up eight to four

until Gurriel tied things with a Grand Slam. And he had a little home run celebration. It wasn't anything that far out of the norm really, but you know, he flipped the bat and he raised his hands and did a little fist pump hold, that sort of thing. And Otani, when he hit a three run homer later in that same game, he appeared to just instantly, seamlessly go into the same routine that Gurriel had.

I was actually kind of impressed by how quickly he shifted into that because it seemed like he had that holstered, like maybe he had thought to himself, if I go yard here, I'm going to do what Gurriel did because there was no time whatsoever. It wasn't like he transitioned into it after rounding first basers. It was like seamless. It was like swing, contacts, boom, immediately appearing to troll Gurriel. So that was kind of presence of mind to just know that ball off the bat was gone instantly

and to perhaps have premeditated that he would do something along those lines. So I like when he shows his mortal side. He's just a guy. It's like Leo XIV, he's just Bob. And so Otani too can just show a little, just like any of us might feel a little showing up. He's a good sportsmanship guy, typically.

I'm not saying this wasn't that, but it was just a little back and forth. I like it. It was definitely more demonstrative than we typically see him being. In this way, at least, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I was like, oh, okay, we're doing a little, we're doing a little this and that over here.

We're doing a little this and a little that. Yeah, I feel like by Effectively Wild standards, we haven't talked that much about Otani this season. Even though he is having essentially the same offensive season he had last year. He's got a 187 WRC plus, which is even a bit above his final figure from last year. And he's not running as much as he was last year, predictably,

and certainly not as much as he was late last season. But he does have 10 steals already in 39 games, which is more than I thought he would run. And maybe that's because he hasn't been pitching, and maybe when he does return to pitching, he will stop running. But still, it's almost like ho-hum, he's been amazing. And I guess we've all been

mesmerized by Aaron Judge's offensive exploits. And so Judge has sort of separated himself clearly as the best hitter in baseball. And Otani is just doing more or less what he did last year without challenging for some new unprecedented speed power combination. And there's a little letdown, at least for me, because I thought we were going to have to weigh Otani back by now. And instead, we're having to wait until seemingly deep into the second half of the season, if all goes well. So that's a bit of a bummer.

I thought we were going to return to unprecedented Otani. And this just feels like precedented Ohtani. It's still quite impressive. It is absolutely greedy and spoiled, but just doing more of the same, that doesn't get you going with Ohtani anymore because we're so used to him doing something different every season.

And the expected stats are even stronger than they've ever been before. Four E4 weighted on base expected. Like he's just crushing the ball. He's even walking more. Like he's just an absolute offensive beast. And yet that's not quite enough to break through in the way that he usually does.

He is just a point behind Pete Alonso from a WRC plus perspective, right? He is the third best WRC plus in baseball among qualified hitters. But it's just the thing about it, Ben, is that Aaron just has 255 WRC plus. He just has a 255 WRC plus, you know? Like that's the thing about it. Did it go up while you were away? It's every time I think like, you know,

maybe he has a down day for him and I'm like, okay, he's coming back to earth just a little bit. No, then he, you know, has a multi-homer day or he goes four for five or whatever. And it's just like, just regression proof basically. And I know that he has a 481 BABIP, but I'm like, is that real though? It's so funny that he has a 481 BAP, but I'm like, is that real though? It's so funny that he has a 41 BAP and he is tied for the league lead in home runs.

I know. And it's like 534 weighted on base. It's like, okay, he's probably playing over his head as high as his head is. And then it's like, yeah, his expected weight on base is a measly five ten. I know it's like, is he getting a little lucky? Yeah, I guess he's also. Yeah. Hitting the ball so hard that maybe the defenders are just like, I don't want any part of that. Yeah. Get away from me. That's going to hurt my little thingies if I try to catch that.

It's unbelievable. It's a very I got to say, I find our current position player, war leaderboard, it's very fun because there are, you know, you got your old standbys, right? But you also have an infusion of new blood and you have guys who candidly by this point in the season, I know it's not like so deep into the year, but I thought would be off of this first page. I thought that they would fade and be gone, and yet here, Ben, here they are. You know, like Jonathan Aranda.

Yeah. I was like- Popular breakout pick. Have to hand it to them. He was one, and one that I didn't object to. I thought I was being so like in the weeds on stuff, being like Jonathan Aranda, they're so happy they have that extra option here. They're not gonna use that.

They're not sending that guy down. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? So there's that. You got a world of, oh, I'm still just like a top 10 player by war. That's amazing. Alex Bregman has rebounded. Jacob Wilson is having a great year. It's just a fun,

there are all those Dodgers fans who were losing their whole minds about Andy Pahez. And yet, Andy Pahez, 130 WRC plus one and a half win player. Why were you all so angry? You were all so mad. And I was like, I watched this guy a lot in spring and thought he had just like, I mean, whatever. I just thought he had a really great spring. I was, I came away impressed by Andy Poggies every time I saw him this spring and people were so mad. And I was like, Oh, maybe I like miss evaluated. No, I was right. Once again, Meg is right about the Dodgers, except for Rookie, which I've been a little wrong so far. And like, you know, you go to page two and there's Ben Rice. Ben Rice has, he's not, he doesn't have bootlegger face.

He's got like dust bowl face. I don't know how to describe that to anyone's satisfaction, but I'm right about that. I was getting all mad at Ben Rice. I had the Mariners Yankees game on for a little while yesterday, and then I turned it off, and I was right to do that. Even Aaron Judge can't quite do it alone. He needs a sidekick, he needs a Robin, and maybe Ben Rice can be that among others.

I mean, he's got Trent Grisham. What the hell's going on with that, Ben? I like that because I did feel like people were sleeping on Grisham just in terms of his overall value as a great defender. Yes. And yet I did not foresee the all-around production that he has supplied. But yeah, supporting the theory that Aaron Judge has either been a little lucky or defenders are afraid of him, he has, according to Statcast, had the worst defense against him of any hitter.

Defenses are five runs below average collectively when Aaron Judge has been hitting. And in theory that should account for the difficulty of those opportunities. But last year it says that defenses were 8 runs below average against Aaron Judge. On the whole, since 2020 to 18 runs below average against Judge, worst in baseball. I don't know if that's fear factor or just not completely accounting for how hard he hits the ball, but seems like it can't be a coincidence. Jordan Alvarez next, then Cody Bellinger, then Rafael Devers, then Joey Meneses, my man, Joey Meneses mentioned. Plus, it doesn't totally track that Aaron Judge would be intimidating defenses because I continue to be somewhat mystified by the way that pitchers opposing managers are handling

Aaron Judge, which is that they're handling him at all. And Ben Clemens just wrote about this for FanGraphs. And we talked about this last year too, when we were kind of mystified by the fact that Aaron Judge was seeing as many strikes as he was. I know he has a huge strike zone, but even so, and it continues to be true, his zone rate is 50.9%. He ranks 93rd out of 160 qualified hitters. So, you know, it's, I guess, a little bit below average,

but it's far from the outlier that you would expect it to be, that you would think that pitchers would just be so afraid of him, they wouldn't throw him a strike. And I guess it's a testament, maybe, to the fact that his plate discipline is as good as it is and he's just not even striking out anymore the way that he used to. And so what can you possibly do?

You're screwed regardless, but even so, it just feels like he's so good, they should be more afraid of him than they are. He has been walked intentionally only six times, which is seemingly not enough given that he's Barry Bonsing. Now, Barry Bons was walked too much, I think. And even Barry Bons, if he were brought back in his peak form today with the same lineup and everything else, I don't think he would be walked nearly as often

because that was ridiculous. I mean, that's just unbeatable, unbreakable records, just breaking baseball the way that he did. And intentional walks are just down across the league since then, and we understand the math more than we did a couple of decades ago about how usually it makes sense to face the guy. But as Ben determined, he should be walked more than he is, most likely, and there should be some happy medium here. And I know that you might not project him

to keep hitting the way that he's hitting, except he's been doing it long enough that it's not exactly small sample, like true talent for Aaron Judge is just absolutely otherworldly hitter. And so it does seem like they're not afraid enough of him. And I think that you can overdo it, right? And we talk sometimes in sports about like,

oh, you don't want to let that guy beat you. You know, this is like a common refrain across all sports. Like don't let the best, here's the thing. If you lose the game, it kind of sucks no matter who does it is the thing. So, you know, there's like a limited, I think that the psychological utility of like being like, well, at least it wasn't just sort of like overblown,

but also why is he getting so many Jans? It seems like it's too many. And you'd think just looking at him, he is a hulking giant and you'd think, I could understand if he were sort of slight, if he had the frame of Bobby Witt Jr. or Corey Seeger or someone. Aaron Judge.

He looks like a guy who can hit the ball as far as he can hit. Yeah, he looks exactly like he is. The guy who does that, yeah. Yeah, there's no false advertising here. There's no, he's just unassuming. You'd never know that he's putting up these numbers. He's exactly the guy you would point to and say, I bet he is just an absolute

monster and masher at the plate. And yeah, he is. He, he's like the guy he's like, he makes Clue Heywood look like just a little cuddly guy, you know? Like if you had to invent the big Yankee villain in a modern baseball movie. A little cuddly guy. He'd look like Aaron Judge. And yet that has not struck the fear of Judge into the hearts of opposing teams. I don't know if it's like, is it that he's so big that they think he has all this real estate, like we could exploit him and maybe his past as a high strikeout guy, even when he was great,

maybe you think, okay, he's beatable. Like if he gets a hold of one, he's going to hurt us, but he has holes in that swing. And now he just doesn't, he doesn't have holes. And so you can't really beat him. I mean, like as a person, he probably has a couple. Yes. But aren't you glad I'm back? Very. I don't know what managers are thinking.

Why would you want to face that guy? He seems like the epitome of the player you would want to issue a free pass to. So we'll monitor that even if he does eventually stop hitting quite this well. I wonder whether those things will change later in the season, but it's not like this has snuck up on us. Maybe the way he has sustained it at this level is semi-surprising, but you can't exactly say

we never saw this coming with Aaron Judge. They've had plenty of time to get used to the idea of Aaron Judge as maybe the best right-handed hitter ever, the best hitter since Barry Bonds, period. I just, I don't know what they're seeing or what I'm missing. It's so fascinating to me to think about Aaron Judge within the context of the Hall of Fame,

because, you know, this was a guy who, I think when he came up and had his 2017 campaign, and he was just like so amazing, even within the context of that, I think there was a lot of people were like, okay, but this is his age 25 season already. You know, he felt like a burn bright, but short guy in the initial going,

like really bright and perhaps ironically short, given his stature, but like there just wasn't going to be enough time and runway before he hit his decline for him to really do the kind of damage he needed to to put together a real Hall of Fame case. And then like he went, you know, 150, 141, 140, 150, 206, 172, 218, 255WRC+, and you're like, I don't know, I guess this guy's just, like, to your point, one of the best right-handed hitters we've ever seen. And complete reappraisal of the potential trajectory that he's on, because it's just, like, the ability to sustain in the face of injury, in the face of kind of nominal position change,

sorta, you know, really spectacular stuff, just like a really incredible, even in the 2023 season where he only played 106 games, he was still basically a five-win player. It's amazing, It's incredible. Yeah. Last two things. Just wanted to shout out Javi Baez, who is unexpectedly fun again. I'm loving this because the Tigers have been great and it's been really fun to watch that. They were kind of the most interesting team to me coming into the season, but I was far

from confident that they could just keep up the way that they ended last season. And they absolutely have, and they've been just great. And they have their winning percentage right now, their record as we record here, tied with the Mets for second best in baseball. And the run differential is the best in baseball. They've been fantastic. Yeah.

And I didn't think that Javi Baez was going to be part of this Tigers Renaissance. And even made jokes last year about how their success coincided with his unavailability. I didn't say that it was because he wasn't there, but I did suggest that it certainly didn't hurt that he wasn't there. but I did suggest that it certainly didn't hurt that he wasn't there. And now the fact that he is there is helping. He has a 132 WRC+. Now he has a 398 BABIP.

And he's 60 plus points above his expected WOBA. And again, there might be some air that comes out of this thing at some point, but he's still just as impatient as ever. The old 3.3% walk rate. But he is defensively versatile. He's playing all sorts of different positions. He's above average at all of them. It's great. It's like, you know, it reminded me that, hey, Javier Baez is fun. Remember when he was so much fun? When we were just all obsessed with his tagging skills and how exciting he was and sliding

and the flair he had for the game and everything. And that really just got sapped because he signs with the Tigers and then he's just been bad. Yeah, bad. That's the word. The thing is, he's just been... Yeah, bad. That's the word. The thing is, he's just been bad like the last couple of years. And hurt in the midst of that.

And so that obviously had its impact, but that wasn't the only thing going on. And that seems to be part of the rebound that he is just physically repaired. And he's also just made some adjustments at the plate as Jay Jaffe detailed for fan crafts. And he has gone against my blanket advice and he has moved up in the batter's box,

but that seems to have worked out for him because maybe he's actually cut down on his swing a little and he's not swinging for the fences so much and not striking out that much, not less than he did the last couple of years, but at least to this point, the balls have fallen for him. So will that continue? I don't know, but I'm more confident

that the defensive value and versatility will continue. And that really raises his floor. Like even in 2022, his first season in Detroit, he was below average hitter, but still at least an average player because of the glove. And so he seems to really have taken to center field, which is pretty impressive at this age and this stage.

And then he can play a little shortstop for you and he can play some third base. And like, he's still perfectly competent at those positions seemingly, but it can also play center. I love it. I love it. Cause you know, that 2016 Cubs team, the would be dynasty, it's largely fallen apart. I guess, you know, you know, that 2016 Cubs team, the would-be dynasty, it's largely fallen apart. I guess, you know, you still got Wilson Contreras going.

But other than that, it's like people who are on their last legs are already out of the game. And that seemed to be the way that Baez was trending. So I love that he can be part of this Tigers renewal now. And it's not just like he's on the sidelines looking, but he's actually contributing to it, at least thus far. And, you know, we should say, if only to head off the email,

Schwab are knocking around still, obviously, and hitting big tanks. But yeah, I mean, his quotes coming out of spring training were so fascinating to me. And Jay included a couple of these in his piece, but just it seemed as if he was at a point where he was like, I'll do whatever you want. You know, however I can contribute to this team, I want to do it because I think he was aware of the fact that playing time was not necessarily guaranteed

for him even with the contract. And I just, I don't know, I think it's cool when guys are like game to do stuff and like to try things and to attempt to be adaptable and extend their own careers. You know, the appeal of Bias was always partially in the teetering, where it was like, this does not seem remotely sustainable, but it's sure a lot of fun while we're watching it. And that has proven to be true at both ends of the spectrum, I think. I thought that the Tigers were in a reasonable position to compete in the Central because the division is weak and they do have good players. We liked their off season. But like you, I didn't necessarily think it was guaranteed. Anytime chaos is like in the name of a big part of your strategy, I think it's reasonable for people to be like, how sustainable is this? But yeah, it's just like, this is a lot of fun.

It's a lot of fun. He seems like he's having a good time. And now they're in this spot where when some of these guys start coming back from injury, they might, it might feel a little crowded and who could have imagined that that was going to be true even a couple of months ago. So you know, good for Javi and good for the Tigers. It's great. Yeah. John Brebbia is back just propelled by the power of Brebbia and Baez.

It's great. Yeah. And lastly, there was an article I saw by the Associated Press about sliding myths, oven myths. And speaking of the pod father, papal favorite, Scott Pitsednik, well, they certainly have gotten bigger. Pitsednik is widely credited with this innovation. But you look at what passed for a sliding mitt for Scott Pitsednik, and it's kind of like you look at the first generation of mitts of fielding gloves, and they're teeny tiny, and they're just kind of a padding for the hand,

and then they gradually expanded until that expansion was limited. It's very much like that, where he basically, like his hand kept getting stepped on when he slid. And so he basically has, as the AP story says, it looks like a padded modified batting glove. That's basically what it is. It's not really an extra accessory.

It looks like he just kind of had an extra batting glove or something. And they've gotten bigger and they've gotten more elaborate and we've discussed and have maybe even answered questions about like, well, what if you just kept making them bigger and they've gotten more elaborate. And we've discussed and have maybe even answered questions about like, well, what if you just kept making them bigger and bigger and bigger? I think they're getting a little bit bigger every day. They certainly have gotten bigger over time. I don't know the rate of the increase.

It's incremental, but yeah, there's oven mitt creep here. And it does seem like something where, you know, someone's gonna take it too far and attempt to have a sliding mitt that just reaches all the way to second base so that you're safe before you take off. The league might intervene on that. Perhaps that would be a tell. But it would be hard to lift. Think how heavy that thing would be.

True, but you wouldn't really have to lift it. I guess you'd just be there. I guess that's right. It's about how sliding mitts are now a fashion accessory. Yes. Not just in the majors where they're elaborate, they're tailored, they're customized, they're art almost.

But even at youth levels, even at levels where you're not allowed to steal bases, they now have sliding mitts. It's just like entry-level sliding mitts because it's just like entry level sliding mitts because it's just part of, yeah, it's part of the gear. It's part of the getup. And even if, you know, like if you're in a 12 and under league like in little league, you're, it's rare for someone

to steal a base because you can only take off after the ball has reached the batter. And then even if you do try to steal, you have to slide feet first. And so the only time in little league that you can dive head first is when you're returning to it, when there's a pickoff attempt or a rundown or something. And so you do not need a sliding mitt.

No, and yet everyone wants to have one because, well, they see big leaguers with them, I guess, and it just filters down and it's now sort of part of the swag. It's part of a baseball outfit. You want to dress like your heroes, you have to have a sliding mitt. And so players will play sometimes with the mitts

just like stuck in your back pocket where you're not even wearing them. It's just a fashion accessory. It's funny because, well, if it's in your back pocket where you're not even wearing them. It's just a fashion accessory. It's funny because, well, if it's in your back pocket, I guess maybe it has a little utility if you can only slide feet first. You're given your tissue. True.

Yeah, padding. Yeah, padding. Not the way that they're used in a big league context, but perhaps a hidden utility we didn't previously appreciate. But yeah, it's so funny. The other thing that you will see is you go to a big league game and you walk around the concourse and every boy from age 12 up to 25 is wearing the really big shades that almost look like you'd wear

them snowboarding. And I'm like, you're in the concourse though, like it's dark in here. Isn't that, isn't that making it difficult for you to navigate? But it's not about that Ben, it's about fashion. Yeah. Hey, breaking news that we can close on here while we have been recording. Our baseball Lord and savior has risen. Rich Hill has been signed. Yes. Would you care to guess? Oh, is it with a Boston Red Sox? It's not actually, I tried to dupe you there.

Let me, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Okay, all right. Is he a Baltimore Oriole? He is not, as much sense as that might've made. That would make a ton of sense. Oh, I don't know, tell me. Kansas City Royals, come on down. That's so fun. That would make a ton of sense. Oh, I don't know. Tell me. Kansas City Royals. Come on down.

That's so fun. That's so fun. Yeah. He has not played for the Royals, so this could be a new team for Richell. This is super exciting. That's fantastic. I'm enthused. Yeah.

So they've signed him to a minor league deal and he's going to go to Surprise and then he's going to go to AAA Omaha and we will see how things go. And the Royals, they do have the eighth best projected rotation according to FanCrafts. Of course, he could be kind of a swing man, he could pitch in relief, he could do it all for you. He's Rich Hill. But yeah, they haven't... They've had actually the second best rotation by FanCrafts were to date. So they don't even...

Yeah, the picture has been strapped. Yeah, it's not the number one team that you would say they have the most dire need for Rich Hill, but everyone needs a little Rich Hill in their lives. Sure. And now he's going to be back in ours. I was going to say, who doesn't need a dick mountain? Um, and then I realized that sounds a little silly.

Um, that's great. Man, Rich Hill. Ah, that little silly. That's great. Man, Rich Hill. Ah, that's fantastic. I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. Wow. I'm glad he's not an Oriole. I think that situation's going pretty badly.

But yeah, wow, cool. Rich Hill. All right. Well, we have Rich Hill back. We have Meg Rowley back on Effectively Wild. Everything's looking up. Lots more to discuss and catch up on, but we will do that next time.

Well, we just love it here when big news breaks immediately after we finish recording, especially when we spent part of the podcast talking about Rob Manfred's legacy, and the news may have some bearing on that. No, I'm not referring to the Dodgers placing Roki Sasaki on the aisle with a shoulder impingement, though they did do that.

Nor am I alluding to Javier Baez hitting two home runs, including a walk-off on Tuesday, though he did do that. I'm talking, of course, about the announcement by MLB and Rob Manfred that permanent ineligibility ends upon the passing of the disciplined individual. And thus, Pete Rose, Shulis Joe Jackson, other deceased players who were on the MLB Ineligible List no longer are, that that ineligibility is lifted upon death,

which potentially clears a pathway to induction into the Hall of Fame for Rose and Jackson because the Hall of Fame has banned players who were on MLB's Ineligible List. We'll return to this topic next time. Meg will weigh in, we will have a conversation about it, but I'll give you my preliminary thoughts just so we don't go a couple of days

without this being addressed at all on the podcast. And I did a tiny bit of reporting on it. I think there's a lot about this that sucks, though there's a bit more backstory to this than I think people are generally aware of. So the purpose of the MLB Ineligible List was not to maintain an official record of who has been naughty and ensure that they were seen as

disgraced for all time. It's to prevent people from being in baseball. If you're on the ineligible list, you can't work for a team, you can't work for the league, you can't be an agent, you can't have any business connections to MLB or a minor league club even. That's the original purpose of the list. And obviously, if you die, you are in effect rendered ineligible to do any of those things. So in that sense, it's redundant to keep someone on the ineligible list after they die. So in the abstract, I wouldn't really have a problem with that policy. And in fact, this is sort of a formalization of a pre-existing policy. Back in January 2020, ESPN's Don Vanatta Jr.

reported that MLB's ineligible list ends at death for banned players. That's the headline on the ESPN story, which read, major league baseball has shifted its view of deceased players who have been banned for life. A senior MLB source told ESPN that the league has no hold on banned players after they die because the ineligible list bars players from the privileges

that include a job with a major league club. From our perspective, the purpose because the ineligible list bars players from the privileges that include a job with a major league club. From our perspective, the purpose of the ineligible list is a practical matter, the source told ESPN. It's used to prevent someone from working in the game. When a person on the ineligible list passes away, he's unable to work in the game. And so for all practical purposes, we don't consider a review of the status

of anyone who has passed away. The report said the previously unreported change is potentially significant when it comes to the consideration of Jackson's eligibility for the status of anyone who has passed away. The report said the previously unreported change is potentially significant when it comes to the consideration of Jackson's eligibility for the Hall of Fame. Rose was still alive at that point. Back then, Manfred declined to comment. A spokesman for the Hall of Fame declined to comment, and it just didn't become big news.

And this is something that John Thorne, the official historian of Major League Baseball, but a long time respected historian, has said for some time. In 2019, he wrote an op-ed has said for some time in 2019 he wrote an op-ed for the New York Times in which he stated, because Major League Baseball removes players from the ineligible list when they die and because the Baseball Hall of Fame aligns its balloting procedures with Major League policy, theoretically there is no barrier to Jackson's

induction. And the ESPN story from 2020 said, baseball insider said Manfred did not necessarily agree with Thornsview, but an MLB source told ESPN this week that Major League Baseball does agree with it and has for some time, but chose not to make it public. And I actually wrote to an MLB spokesperson after this news came out and said, is it more accurate to describe this as a new policy or as an announcement or formalization of an existing policy? And the spokesperson said, "'The commissioner met with Pete Rose's daughter "'last December and they specifically asked for us "'to define the approach to deceased individuals

"'who were on the ineligible list when they passed, "'as they wished for him to reach the Hall of Fame one day. "'So today we formalized what had been our belief.'" As the press release says, "'This issue has never been formally addressed "'by Major League Baseball.'" Okay, so let's say this was the policy, and I don't think it's really an unreasonable policy. Why formalize it now? The press release says,

An application filed by the family of Pete Rose has made it incumbent upon the office of the commissioner to reach a policy decision on this unprecedented issue in the modern era, as Mr. Rose is the first person banned after the tenure of Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis to die while still on the ineligible list. Well, okay, maybe Rose is the first player banned post-Landis to die while still on the list, but there were plenty of dead people on the list before this and MLP didn't feel moved

to make a statement about it or to announce that Shoeless Joe was no longer ineligible. In fact, in 2015, the Shoeless Joe Jackson Museum appealed to Manfred for Jackson's reinstatement, and Manfred said, It would not be appropriate for me to reopen this matter. The results of this work demonstrate to me that it is not possible now, over 95 years since those events took place and were considered by Commissioner Landis, to be certain enough

of the truth to overrule Commissioner Landis' determinations. He agreed with a Bartlett-Giamatti's review in 1989 that declined to reinstate Jackson because the case was now best given to historical analysis and debate as opposed to a present day review with an eye to reinstatement. So what's different from a decade ago? Is it just that Rob Manfred's thinking evolved?

Well, it could just be that Rose died in September, Manfred met with Rose's daughter in December, Rose's lawyer's petition was filed early January and Manfred decided, hey, I have to rule on this one way or another and ruled in a not unreasonable way, I would say. However, it's hard to separate this from the specter of Trump.

From the fact that when Rose died, Trump called him one of the most magnificent baseball players ever to play the game. He paid the price. MLB should have allowed him into the Hall of Fame many years ago, do it now. And then in February, Trump said he was going to pardon Pete Rose.

He met with Manfred in April, Manfred acknowledged that he had talked with Trump about Rose. And according to ESPN, Manfred called Trump on Tuesday to tell him about this ruling. So on the one hand, I don't hate the ruling in itself. Manfred wrote that a person no longer with us cannot represent a threat to the integrity of the game. Not sure I'd agree with that. I think there's some value in maintaining the stain next to someone's name to strongly discourage that behavior. I don't know that there's anyone out there who's considering betting on baseball and is thinking to themselves,

Oh, now that I will be banned only until death, but not after death, I'm gonna go for it. But I don't want the stigma surrounding what Pete Rose did, one of the many bad things that Pete Rose did, to be reduced. And I'm afraid that that will be the effect of this. Because Rose is dead, most likely the only short-term tangible impact of this

would be his reconsideration by the Hall of Fame. And he is eligible now for inclusion on the December, 2027 Classic Baseball Era Committee ballot. I guess you could say there's no downside to keeping a person on the ineligible list after death, as long as their name hasn't been cleared, except for the fact that that means that people will keep petitioning MLB to re-examine the case.

I don't need MLB to be in the business of passing permanent judgment on moral character or bad behavior. I agree with Manfred that MLB shouldn't decide who's in the Hall of Fame. And I continue to think that Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson should not be in the Hall of Fame. Whether they're on the ineligible list or not,

I think it would be a travesty. If you are gonna have a character clause, and I'd be okay with not having one, but if you have one, it should preclude Pete Rose from being honored. Even Shoeless Joe was not nearly as innocent as he has sometimes been portrayed. There's a lot of distortion that has happened there.

But I worry that a small committee of voters, not writers, writers never got a chance to vote on Pete Rose because the hall took that out of their hands by saying if you're banned from baseball, you're banned from the hall. Well that certainly doesn't mean that if you're not banned from baseball you shouldn't be banned from the hall but I worry that that will be the effect. I hope I'm wrong. It's just getting exhausting to keep seeing some of the worst people pardoned and the worst behavior excused or rewarded. So to sum up this was already informal MLB

policy. I'm not really against this being MLB policy, but I hate the idea of Pete Rose being in the Hall of Fame, not just because of his betting on baseball, though that may be the most pertinent bad behavior for Hall of Fame purposes, but because of his other off-the-field transgressions. And I also hate the idea of baseball continuing to bend over backwards, in deference to Donald Trump. And given everything else we've seen with MLB scrubbing mentions of diversity and inclusion pretty transparently to appease the current regime, then it's sure hard to read this as anything other than a cowardly way to cave to Trump's wishes for Rose without actually having to say that that's what you're doing.

In April, Rob Manfred said, I'm not gonna give this the pocket veto. I will in fact issue a ruling, but would that have been his decision with a different occupant of the Oval Office? Well, I wouldn't place a bet on that. That will do it for today. Thanks as always for listening. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon

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discounts on merch and ad-free FanGraphs memberships, and so much more, check out all the offerings at patreon.com slash Effectively Wild. If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro, and outro themes to podcasts at fangraphs.com. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild sub-edit

at r slash effectively wild. And you can check the show notes at fan graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats recited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with another episode a little later this week.

Talk to you then. Romantic, pedantic, and hypothetical. Semantic and frantic, real or theoretical. They give you the stats and they give you the news. It's a baseball podcast you should choose. Effectively Wild is here for you. About all the weird stuff that players do. Authentically strange and objectively styled, let's play ball. It's effectively wild. It's effectively wild. It's effectively wild.