Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2348: All-Star Miz-shegoss

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Ben Lindbergh and Davy Andrews banter about Meg’s absence, Byron Buxton, Kyle Stowers, and an Orioles/Marlins surprise, the backlash to Jacob Misiorowski’s All-Star selection, the status of the All-Star game and whether All-Star designations need to change, All-Star/Home Run Derby excitement and the merits of several unsung (or undersung) All-Stars and non-All-Stars, a hypothetical about […]

Hello and welcome to Episode 2348 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from FanCrafts presented by our patreon supporters I am Ben Lindberg of the ringer not joined today by Meg rally of fan crafts But joined instead by someone who works for works with Meg another member of the fan craft staff Davey Andrews rejoining us today. Hello Davey. Hey Ben. How are you doing? So Meg was a late scratch This was sort of it's appropriate for All-Star week, I suppose. Had to rest up for the remainder of the season. You are the Randia Rosarena to Meg's Julio Rodriguez. You're stepping in Interstead.

I have not been doing enough pushups to be the Randia Rosarena. Well, not, not physically necessary, but, uh, you are a replacement, still an all star, you're both all stars in my book and, and officially for that matter. And I don't know Meg, she, she posted a selfie the other day on blue sky of blooper, Braves mascot and. Haunter of Meg's nightmares just looming over her shoulder with the text, help! exclamation point, and then told me that she couldn't come on this episode at the last second.

Not saying those two things are connected, but she was in very close proximity to Blooper, and now we're not hearing from her. What that means, I will leave up to people to draw their own conclusions. It appears in this picture, which I had missed, I was on vacation this weekend, that Blooper is giving someone a back rub at the time.

It does look like that, yeah, or like a shoulder massage of some sort. And one wonders whether Meg was in line, whether he was just going through the press box. Knowing what I know of Meg, I'm going to say she would not have willingly gotten on that line. She would have been as far away from that line as it was humanly possible to be.

But yeah, this fellow who is getting his shoulder rubbed by Blooper seems to be okay with that. So hopefully Meg's okay and survived her Blooper encounter. I know that there's a tradition of blooper taking a picture with Passen every year. I saw the latest installment of the Passen blooper series. So maybe this will be the first of many for Meg. When she returns, which should be on the next episode, we will get an in-person report.

I hope that in the next picture, he's just like two feet closer to the camera and in the ensuing years. Yeah. Blooper will just be co-hosting the next picture he's just like two feet closer to the camera and in the ensuing years. Yeah. Blooper will just be co-hosting the next episode silently through his absence of a mouth. I guess I should also mention, because Meg's not here just to forestall future emails, we are aware and she is aware that there has been kissing action among players. We've received many notifications, especially Meg.

I've received many. Oh, well, I realized you're going to have to dive into this with Meg around, but I would love to hear some of the details. Yeah, I will want to get her take two. It's not like on the lips, full lip lock action. I never totally know when she says that the players could kiss if they want to. I don't know whether she has a specific sort of kissing in mind, but there is something that I think would probably tickle her, which is Vinny Pasquentino and Jack Caglione of the Royals.

Teammates, fellow Italian Americans, they have taken to affectionate pecs at the very least. And Jack hit a big home run the other day and Vinny greeted him with some smooches. So that was nice to see. And the twins have been really at the forefront of this. And I think we've discussed it before and people have contacted us many times about Carlos Correa and other twins and, uh, and Lewis and, you know, just many twins are embracing very affectionate. It's not like full on make out session. So, you know, if that's where your mind went, when I brought that up initially,

but, but it's tender. So that's a step towards the reality that Meg has envisioned, perhaps. We will get her thoughts on Blooper and also Royals kissing when she returns to us. And we're recording here on Monday afternoon, which is kind of an awkward time because the draft is ongoing. The Home Run Derby and the All-Star Game haven't happened yet. Meg, of course, is on the scene, so next time we will do some draft talk and we'll talk about the Futures game and we'll talk about the Derby and the All-Star Game and the Blooper encounter and all of the notable events from

this week. But still plenty to banter about for now. And the first thing I wanted to throw at you is a fun fact and kind of an incredible coincidence. I thought I received an email from listener Aaron on Sunday morning and it was prompted by Byron Buxton hitting for the cycle on his bobblehead day. So we received multiple requests to stat blast performances on bobblehead days, which I have not done yet. But Aaron said, I know cycles are cool, but not that cool because four homers would be better. But I found it interesting that all five of Buxton's hits

were hit harder than a hundred miles per hour, or is this unusual? And so I went to baseball savant and I determined whether that was unusual hours after Aaron's email. And I found and told him that there had been 51 batter games in the Static Cast era since 2015 with at least five batted balls of a hundred miles per hour or more, but only three batter games with five batted balls of a hundred miles per hour or more

where all five were hits as was the case in the Buxton game. So it was just Rafael Devers in August of 2019. He had a six hit game and five of them were a hundred miles per hour plus and then Shohei Otani in his legendary game last September where he got to 50-50 and just, yeah. And then Buxton was the third. And so Aaron responded and said, okay, three in more than a decade. That's pretty rare. That's pretty special.

But as I was searching and as I was answering Aaron, Kyle Stowers of the Marlins was in the process of becoming the fourth. So this exclusive three player club. Revenge is a powerful motivator. Yeah. So when I refreshed that query this morning, there were suddenly 52 in the less exclusive club and four in the more exclusive club because this has happened four times since 2015 and yet it just happened on back-to-back days. This must mean something. Does this mean something? No.

Probably not, though. I think the longer we measure something, the more players can focus on it. So people hit the ball harder now than they did at the beginning of this Static Cast era. But, yeah, the fact that it happened on back-to-back days, and with unique motivations for the players, is fun, but probably doesn't mean that much.

Probably not. No, it's probably the XKCD comic with the random number generator and us making narratives after the fact about it. But it did make me do a double take because I just refreshed this and suddenly there were four where there were three. And I was aware that Kyle Stowers

had had himself quite a game, five-hit game, three homers against the Orioles, no less, but I did not expect to see his name suddenly pop up there. So that made the fun fact, I guess, more fun, even though it's now less exclusive. So yeah, the fact that three of four of these games have happened in the past year or the past, I don't know, four or five months of baseball. Maybe that's meaningful in the sense that people are hitting the ball harder, though

I guess there are fewer hits all the time. But that was kind of cool. And it does raise in my mind a question because Kyle Stowers of all people, I mean, sure, Byron Buxton and Shohei Otani and Raphael Devers, but Kyle Stowers, who is an all-star himself. And not just because he's a Marlin and someone had to be,

but he's having an all-star caliber season. He's got a 151 WRC+. Yeah, and probably part of that was Sunday, but not all of it. He was having a fine season before that. So my question for you, so the Orioles traded him to the Marlins last July 30th. So if I had told you last July 30th, which one of these outcomes would have been more unpredictable or hard to believe. Kyle Stowers having a higher war pre All-Star break in 2025 than any Baltimore Orioles,

which he has, or the Marlins having a better record than the Baltimore Orioles, which they just went ahead of the Orioles by a game thanks to Kyle Stowers. So both of these facts are connected, of course, because Kyle Stowers almost single-handedly powered the Marlins to a win over the Orioles. And just generally, if he's been a three war player, then maybe they would not be a game ahead of the Orioles without the efforts of Kyle Stowers. But still, Kyle Stowers being better than any Oriole or the Marlins being better than the Orioles collectively. That is a really tough one because the Marlins and Orioles, they're just sample size of one.

Whereas when you look at the whole team, you think he's going to be better than Adly Rutchman and Gunnar Henderson and Colton Couser. And you know, that is a very tough one. And also he completely fell apart after that the trade. I was on the trade for Fangrath and he went from, I mean, over a short sample, he had a 120 WRC plus in Baltimore and then he was at 56 after the trade. For him to turn around that, I guess I have to pick, I don't know. in Baltimore and then he was at 56 after the trade. Yeah. For him to turn around that I guess I have to pick,

I don't know. You know what, the answer is the Marlins. The answer is you should never expect the Marlins to be better than another team. Yeah, I think that's probably true. I guess it sounds like it should be Stowers because he had to beat out the entire field of Orioles just to be better than all of those guys, including many actual good players and the Marlins is just one team being

better than one other team. That doesn't sound so hard, but consider the specific two teams and suddenly it does seem improbable. And so my colleague and pal at the Ringer, Mallory Rubin was posting very sadly in Ringer MLB Slack about this, about Stowers visiting this, I don't know if you'd call it revenge, I don't know if he has a grudge against the Orioles. It's probably better for him that he went to the Marlins and gets a clearer path to playing time.

Right. You would probably remember it because you were doing this trade reaction. Would you even say that he was the centerpiece of this trade going back to Miami? Because Connor Norby is younger and unlike Stowers was a top 100 guy and had, I think by far, the better projection this spring. And he has not played particularly well for the Marlins. So it would probably have surprised me just to learn that Stowers has been this much better than Norby,

let alone all of his former Orioles teammates. Right. I mean, I definitely had... I'm skimming through it now. I definitely had Norby as the focal point of my article after. And I mean, I think, honestly, I spent more time on Rogers than anyone else. And I certainly didn't see his season coming either. But yeah, I think Norby was considered the centerpiece. Yeah, it was definitely the Trevor Rogers trade, I guess, if you had to name it after one player who

was involved in that trade. Fortunately for the Orioles, Rogers has pitched better of late. So it's a little less sad that Stowers is doing what he's doing, but not that much less sad, I guess. Anyway, exhibits, I don't know, infinite number of baseball being unpredictable and strange. I should have asked you when I was talking about the Kisses, you have written multiple times about Pete Crowe Armstrong's celebrations,

right? Like he's, he's kind of pushing the boundaries of baseball celebrations as well, not in a like mouth fluid way, in an enthusiasm sense. In a full body way. At one point during the most recent article I found myself on the Merriam-Webster page looking up the word amorous just to see if it would fit. It's a little more specifically romantic sexual than fit in the article. But what he is doing, especially with Sayasuzuki, is not necessarily not sexual.

Yeah, it's affectionate. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. Describing kissing as a mouth fluid way definitely made me sound like someone who has kissed before. I have, I swear. I know how to do it. But yeah, it's different strokes for different folks. Gosh, I shouldn't say strokes in this context, but just saying, there's

a youthful enthusiasm there that manifests in more than one way. Well, the most fascinating thing about that whole piece, which for something as silly and period as it is, I'm quite proud of it. I love it if people would go read it. There was an eight-minute long interview that Carl Rabich did with Crow Armstrong and Suzuki, and they were talking about, you know, Rabich asked them kind of what do you guys do that makes each other laugh and they kind of both, they looked at each other and went, you know, we probably

can't say a lot of this on television. And it's like they're out there bumping their cups into each other on television. I do not have any guess as to what is going on behind the scenes. Yeah. I mean, that leaves a lot to the imagination, I guess, because if that's what you're comfortable sharing publicly, your crotches with each other with, you know, some barriers between, but nonetheless, and yet you're not comfortable sharing other things that are happening, then one imagines one's mind runs wild potentially at what could be too steamy for TV potentially. Wow, just pushing the boundaries,

exploring all kinds of human connections in our sport. I guess we should talk about all-star selections. We've talked about some all-stars here, but the big news of the day before actually anything happens, the big controversy, the Mishigas, I guess the Mizegas, is that something? We can talk about Jacob Mizrowski's selection to the All-Star game, which has caused quite a backlash and a larger conversation about how All-stars are selected and snubbed, and whether the all-star game still matters, and whether there should be changes made to this process. And as we've discussed on the pod, we don't talk that much about all-star snubs, if only

because there are just so many all-stars who are eventually selected. Right. only because there are just so many all-stars who are eventually selected. I have not counted lately, but I saw the baseball prospectus, Daniel Epstein wrote a piece on Monday, and he said there are 81 all-stars this year, including all the players who were voted in, selected as a backup, opted out, got injured,

or were named as replacements. Each team has at least one representative, as per the rules. And there are 2.7 all-stars per franchise on average. Most of them Detroit Tigers. He didn't say that. I'm editorializing. They comprise 10.4% of all the players

on the 30 26-man rosters and 6.8% of players on the 40-man rosters. So lots of all-stars, but not enough all-stars for some people or at least not the right all-stars. So the Miz making the all-star game, that does also feel like a new frontier because five games and five starts as spectacular as they have been,

he is the least experienced All-Star. And so that does feel somewhat noteworthy. And some players seem to be pretty pissed about it. What do you make of All-Star Jacob Misrasky? Well, I think I've changed my mind a little bit about it because I think at first I thought, well, that's fun. And I got that maybe he wasn't the number one most deserving guy and maybe that that would annoy some people. But I also gathered that there are people who are going to be annoyed no matter what.

And that if you went to a manager and said, hey, we need one inning, a significant percentage of them would say, well, give me that guy who throws 145 miles an hour. Yes. So I was sort of okay with it. I think I've come around a little bit as I have read other arguments. I think Jared Seidler was out there on Blue Sky a little bit talking about just the number of players who have better, even just top line stats, better ERAs in a lot more innings.

And that makes sense. And I think it was Zach Kreiser from the bandwagon was talking about that this seems a little bit more like a, well, we wanted another Paul Skeen, so we made one and maybe it's a different situation. And so I think I'm a little more skeptical than I was before. Yeah, I am too.

I'm kind of torn about this. It is, I guess, a little like skeptical than I was before. Yeah, I am too. I'm kind of torn about this. It is, I guess, a little like MLB's trying to make the Miz happen. I mean, the Miz has happened. It's not as if MLB is just manufacturing this sensation all on its own. He certainly generates a lot of interest because he's very tall and he has incredible extension and he has incredible velocity and he's had some sterling outings thus far. So it's not as if he is not organically interesting

on his own, but they are clearly trying to capitalize on that. And yes, in this setting where even the starter usually is not going more than an inning or much more than an ending. I guess what tends to be memorable in these games is when someone comes out just firing and strikes out a bunch of all-stars, you know, like the Carl Hubble game, the Pedro Martinez game. These are the legendary all-star appearances where you just strike out a bunch

of your peers, your peers also being all-stars and that's exciting. So if Mr. Oski comes in and he's pumping 104 or something and he's just blowing the ball by other all-stars, then that's fun. I have some misgivings about it because I think that we valorize and fetishize velocity to such an extent that it scares me. You know, I hate to be a worry wart, but I'm always the guy who's kind of

wringing his hands because anytime a young pitcher or any pitcher for that matter is throwing that hard, I fear the worst. And so I don't want that to be the number one spectacle. Like, yes, this is how we go viral as a sport is just by throwing harder and harder and harder because we know what the downsides to that are obviously, but there's no denying that it is pretty fun to watch him. There's also not denying that he's not Paul Skeens

in terms of hype or skill or even just track record in the majors like Skeens had pitched in what, 11 games before? And granted, he started the game last year and that felt semi-manufactured. Like, hey, this is just the season of Skeens. He's the new hotness and everything. But it was a little less egregious, certain. Right, and you know, he's-

You could have made a real argument that he was the best pitcher in baseball. Yes, exactly. Like you can't make the case. Mizorowski's been good, but he's had a shaky outing. And he's still going to walk too many guys, and his command's not always going to be great. And he just came up, and it wasn't

like he was the number one prospect in baseball like Skeens was. Normies weren't really talking about Mizorowski prior to this season. Right. And, you know, he's caught everyone's attention and can be captivating, but it's not quite the same. And yeah, five games and what is it, 26 innings? That just... 25 and two-thirds.

Okay. That's an important distinction when you talk about this few outs gotten. You just gave them a significant bump. Yeah, on a percentage basis, that's a pretty big difference. So that does feel like not enough. It does feel like a little slippery slope as some people have said, well, what's next? You know, you just throw some top draft pick in there. You throw some top prospect in there, skip the futures game and go directly to the All-Star game. some top prospect in there, skip the futures game and go directly to the All-Star game.

I don't blame MMP for trying to make it interesting. On the other hand, it is after all an exhibition, right? And I think there is a solid chance that he could get in there and strike out three batteries and everybody run for it, you know? Yeah. Oh, it could be the most talked about moment from the game, potentially. So I do see the vision of it. And the Phillies specifically were sort of up in arms about this. Some Phillies at least.

Nick Castellanos, he leveled the insults that it's like the Savannah Bananas, or the All-Star Game is turning into the Savannah Bananas. And MLB is probably thinking to itself, yeah, that's what we're going for here. Like that's an exhibition, this is an exhibition, that's popular, we want this to be popular, we want it to be fun. So maybe that would be seen as more of a feature than a bug by MLB.

And yet you also don't want to detract from the legitimacy of the honor of selection. Right. I think there's a balance there. And man, Nick Castellanos has a lot of opinions. And the whole Philly situation was a little weird because there are players who were like, they were upset that they didn't have more players, but then they had players who could have been there for one reason or another. So it wasn't as clear cut as our whole team got snubbed. Right. It is kind of confusing. Yeah. You read the reporting. Matt Gelb did a piece on this been there for one reason or another. So it wasn't as clear cut as our whole team got snubbed. Right.

It is kind of confusing. Yeah. You read the reporting, Matt Gelb did a piece on this for the athletic and the Phillies are all upset about the snubs. And then you keep reading the story and it's like, most of the snubs had the opportunity to go to the game and didn't, or there's some conflicting reporting. There's like a game of telephone that's happening here. But like Zach Wheeler, for instance, was selective and, and

pulled out of the game, right? He pitched on, or he pulled out on Friday and just said he didn't want to disrupt his routine to pitch an exhibition game. Okay. And then Ranger Suarez was one of the other guys that fellow Phillies were upset about not being an all-star, but Suarez also declined the offer. And then Christopher Sanchez, MLB, or there was reporting that said that he had also passed, but then... Well, it was like about when he pitched.

Yeah, right. So he pitched on Sunday and you, you get an exemption for that. But there's reporting that the league offered him a spot if he agreed to wave the restrictions and make himself available for an inning two days after his start. Quote unquote, a major league source said Saturday morning, Sanchez declined. The league source said MLB told the Phillies replacement player can only be named to the All-Star roster if he agrees to pitch in the game, but Sanchez's agent disputed that version of events. He is willing to pitch no matter what.

So I don't know. There's a, he said league source said thing happening here. And I don't know exactly, but, but yeah, you wouldn't expect him to want to, or be able to pitch in a game on Tuesday. If he pitched on Sunday, that's sort of par for the course that you get out of the game, whether you want to or not, when that's the case. Right. It does seem like part of the Phillies gripe here is just that these guys are not named

all-stars. It's not necessarily that they're saying that they weren't like offered the chance or that they're upset about that. It's that they're not technically all stars, even though they were offered the opportunity. Like Christopher Sánchez had this $50,000 all star bonus clause in his contract. Which the Phillies generously are paying anyway. Yes, they did, which, which is a, it's a nice gesture, you gesture. If he was offered the chance to be an All-Star, which I guess no one disputes that he was offered the chance at least, then they're saying,

well, that's close enough. You were basically an All-Star in our book and hey, make the player happy. It's a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things. I do think they sort of have a point in the sense that, well, look, I guess you could say Trey Turner has had an all-star worthy season. And there are other NL players like Juan Soto, for instance, because I don't think any of the NL starters dropped out, right, the position players. So they haven't had to have any NL replacement hitters,

which is the first time in, I think, several years that that's been the case. Right, you're right. I'm not seeing any plus marks on the roster here. And if we're gonna name one real snobby, it has to be Soto. Yeah, right. He's been hitting out of his mind for a while,

or I guess not really out of his mind. It's just hitting like one Soto basically. He has rolled out of bed and been himself. Yeah, pretty much, blatantly, but he's made up for it in the long run. Yeah. So I think they have a point in the sense that I think it would be nice if you were offered the slot and say you pitched on Sunday and you were just unavailable. I think it would be kind of cool if you got the All-Star designation nonetheless.

You know, I feel more conflicted about it. If you were offered the chance and you just said, nah, then I don't know even if you were All-Star worthy, whether you're really deserving of having that on your baseball reference page. I'm just thinking like in terms of posterity, because we do still look back at players even now and say, oh, he was a X time all-star, right.

Or, and it means something. And obviously we have better and more meaningful stats and, you know, there's so much like that goes into whether you're an all star or not, that isn't directly related to how well you played, but it, it does still affect how you're perceived and it's kind of a shorthand for how we talk about players. So on that level, I think it would be kind of nice if you got just, hey, yeah, he would have been an All-Star. He was worthy of being an All-Star.

He would have been selected if the schedule hadn't conspired against him, I think. That'd be nice almost like from an accounting perspective. Right. And I mean, you know, the stuff, it makes it onto Hall of Fame plaques. It does, yeah. And I can't imagine there's a player who doesn't think about that or let that inform the way they think about themselves even a little bit. And you know, it seems to matter to many players, but probably less so than before, understandably. And so maybe our perceptions will change accordingly.

Maybe it won't continue to be on Hall of Fame plaques. Maybe we won't give it that same weight because of things like this, because of so many players being passed over or it being less reflective of performance. I mean, on the one hand, I've talked about Neil Payne's research that showed that the All-Star selections do mirror war, same season war at least, pre-All-Star break war more closely than they used to. So maybe the All-Star selections are more merited by that definition, but then they're all these, you know, players who pull out or just unavailable or whatever it is. And the game just matters less kind of culturally

than it used to. And so maybe we will all just not give it the same weight that we have historically. And so maybe it won't actually matter that we kind of have a skewed sense in some cases. Well, Ben, do you remember before, you know, you were a baseball writer and all this, I'm trying to remember how much weight did I give it when I was a kid, because I am fairly certain

that I'd never missed an All-Star game and maybe they were even taped in my house so that we could watch them over and over again. But I definitely can't remember any, you know, snub or anything like that from when I was growing up being really angry. And I would have been angry, you know, I mean, there were that from when I was growing up being really angry. And I would have been angry, you know, I mean, there were a lot of years, I grew up in Orioles country, so Cal Ripken Jr. made it in there a lot of years

when he maybe didn't deserve to anymore. Yeah, I don't remember specific snubs so much, but I did mention to Meg the other day that it did really confer a kind of status on a player when I collected baseball cards and I had dedicated sleeves in my binders just for all-stars. And it was like once an all-star, always an all-star in my mind, even if you fluked into it once, hey, he was an all-star.

So it did really carry some weight at the time. And that was probably post the heyday of the All-Star game, which was like a bitter rivalry and really meaningful for decades. But I think for very understandable reasons, it matters less to everyone, matters less to fans, and by extension, maybe matters less to players. And maybe there's like a self-reinforcing cycle there where fans care less, thus players care less and if it looks like players care less then fans will care less in turn, you know, it sort of self-perpetuates because you want there to be some sense of legitimacy to it even though it's an exhibition and it doesn't count for anything except reputation, if enough

players just pass without a great reason other than, eh, you know, didn't really feel like it wanted a break, which I would feel the same way maybe, but if enough players do that, then it does detract from the status and suddenly it seems less special. I mean, it's an all-star game. It's not, I guess, all the stars. It's more like everyone who's in the game is a star, aside from the ones who have to get in because their team needs a representative. But, you know, the lower the luster of the stars,

the lower the wattage, then the less we'll care. Right. I mean, it's still, I think, in this day and age, astounding how few players do beg off. You know, when you look at... We've got a lot of the best players in the game here. I mean, when you look at the rosters, there aren't any scrubs, you know? And I don't think you could say that in every year.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And, like, they are kind of required to go. I think it's in the CBA that like they are supposed to go. But there are so many carve outs and exceptions there that you can easily get out of it if you want to, whether it's, you know, you just started on the Sunday before the game, or, you know, there was something else, like something that would enable you to take time off regardless, whether it's like, you know, paternity leave, bereavement leave, whatever legitimate reasons, or, or it could just be an injury, like something that has been nagging.

It doesn't even have to be that you're on the IL. It's just something that has plagued you that you will be rehabbing and recovering from. And that's enough. And what player can't come up with some reasonable sounding excuse, right? Because everyone's a bit banged up. Right, well, I mean, I just finished doing our All-Star Preview for Fangraphs,

and it's like, Byron Buxton, I would love for him to take a break. And he has a sore hand issue going on right now. Cal Raleigh has sat I think twice this whole season. And he must be banged up in 12 different places and he's doing the derby and the All-Star game. I mean there are players who I look at the rosters and I think I would love to force you to set for your own well-being. Yeah, yeah. I think Bob Nightingale reported that MLB had reached out to about a dozen pitchers looking for a replacement until they finally got someone to say yes, that someone being

the Miz. So they're just kind of going around hat in hand in every clubhouse, would you like to be an All-Star? Would you like to be an All-Star? And the guy who's pitched in five big league games said, sure, that sounds cool. And I feel kind of bad for Mr. Oskey because I don't blame him. This is not his fault. Yeah.

And even the Phillies said that like it's not on the kid for doing it. I guess Mr. Oskey could have also said no and said, oh, there are more deserving guys out there and my time will come. And, you know, that might've shown some humility or some feel or whatever, but I don't blame him for wanting to be an All-Star if he was given the opportunity to be an All-Star, but that just goes to show,

we may never know the identity of everyone who said no to this offer, and I guess that just has to do with, that's just the general arc of picture usage these days. And, you know, who knows if that's protective at all, but a guy comes out and is amped up and is the adrenaline is flowing

and you're throwing even harder than usual. And you're just max effort trying to get some other all stars out. And yeah, you can imagine that it would be better for you to just rest your arm there. So if they are really having to go that far down the list, that doesn't really reflect well on the standing of the All-Star game among players generally, right?

And yes, almost everyone goes, but it did seem like there were more cases of people just sort of saying no without like the clearest reason why like Julio or Jose Ramirez, you know, they've got some nagging things, right? But it, you know, they were playing pretty recently. It's not like they're going to be missing time on the other side of the break. So there is some greater willingness to say, you know, I've been there, done that, thanks for the offer.

And like Julio has been hitting well of late. He has home runs in his last three games. It's not like, I just physically, I can't do it at the moment. Right, yeah, you know, he's nursing some stuff too, but clearly he's able to deal with it, right? So yeah, I don't know whether it's risen to the level of like needing to do something about it.

Like the NHL for instance, has a policy that if you decline to play in the game, you are essentially suspended for a game after the break. Like you miss. Oh, this is the, if you're too sick to go to school, you're too sick to go to soccer practice rule. Exactly, right. Yes, you fake the sore throat in the morning.

I don't think I can make it today. Well, if you're not feeling up to it, then you definitely can't just lie in bed and play video games all day. You got to rest. You're watching the prices, right? Yeah. However, you divert yourself during a sick day. So, yeah, like maybe that's something that the league could explore. That seems to have the intended effects,

more or less in hockey, but that sort of presupposes that anyone even cares anymore. That fans care enough about the All-Star game that it's gonna make a difference. That's, I guess, the argument against the Miz. Maybe it's like make a difference. That's, I guess, the argument against the Miz, maybe. It's like, is anyone tuning in to see the Miz specifically? I think they might.

Aside from Brewers fans and Sickos who are already gonna be watching the game? I think people might. I might. I mean, I'll just... Right, but yeah. Now, okay, once you said Sickos, I had to reconsider. Yeah. Those Sickos.

Except the Sickos. I had to reconsider. Yeah. No sickos. Except the sickos. We'll watch anything. I increasingly, as I, you know, this is now my profession, I increasingly have to, I have to do more work to remember what a non-sicko might look like. Yes. You have to sicko adjust the intros level. It's tough to put yourself in that non-sicko mindset, but even as a sicko, there have been some games that I have casually consumed, let's say.

Maybe I've watched part, maybe I've watched the starters as long as they stayed in. Maybe it's been on in the background, but I haven't exactly been glued to every pitch. So even me, the Miz, might make a difference. I mean, it would be kind of cool to see him come out there firing. But I don't know if on a national level, you know, something like Skeen starting the game, okay, yeah, maybe that.

Or Otani being an all-star twice over, that's something that, yes, you could generate some interest and get the casuals actually into this thing. The Miz is not nearly that sort of household name, but then again, I guess this is how one becomes a household name potentially. And, you know, people are always saying, ah, MLB doesn't market its stars. And I think that's to some extent, you know, maybe there's some accuracy to that, but I think a lot of it is kind of out of MLB's control. Like, can you actually make baseball players be nationally or internationally famous? Or is that something that just has to happen on its own and you can do your your best

to fan the flames, but you can't create it out of whole cloth. But maybe this is an example. Like, you look at the MLB social accounts, and they've been all over the Miz since he came up and now there's this and pitchers will break your heart and, and they will break. So again, like putting all your, your eggs in the, the hard throwing young pitcher basket is like historically not the best long-term, but. You know, I don't want to fault MLB, I guess, for doing some star making activity, whether it works or not. I hope this doesn't poison his personal experience, you know?

Yes. And this is something that is kind of a concern across sports. This is not unique to MLB. If anything, MLB has taken less flack for its All-Star game or seen less of a decline in the interest in the ratings. I have to say, I do, I really look forward to the All-Star game. I watch the whole, like I already warned my wife, like I'm staying up late Tuesday night where I'm going to watch the whole thing.

And I don't, maybe that's, I don't know why, but it's still, it still matters a lot to me. I still really look forward to it. You know, playing a special baseball dinner around it. Good. All-star enthusiast Davey Interes. Perfect fill-in for this All-Star Week episode. Maybe some of your youthful, childlike, innocent enthusiasm

for the Midsummer Classic can rub off on all of us if we've lost some of that. But it is something that really across the board, it's not specific to MLB. It's not because it doesn't count, quote unquote, anymore. It's because the All-Star Game is just inherently less sensational than it was, because we can see all the stars whenever we want now. We're spoiled. Right.

And it's still cool to see them going up against each other, but it's obviously not going to be the same as it was pre MLB TV, pre interleague play when you just never saw these matchups pre like many games being broadcast. You know, this would be a rare exception, a national broadcast so that you could actually see these stars who were just names in newsprint to so many people or you'd have to wait till they come to your city and if you were in the wrong city to see them, you never would. Like back then, of course it was going to matter more.

And there was more of a, it was a grudge match between the AL and the NL because there were actual distinctions between those leagues and different rule sets and different umpires and different brands of baseball to a certain extent. And so there was actually, there were bragging rights at stake, whereas now, you know, the leagues might as well be conferences. There's essentially no great stark distinction between them anymore. It's just kind of a historical, vestigial quirk. And I don't think you can fix that.

And I'm kind of okay with not being able to fix that. I still don't know that that is a problem that needs to be fixed. Yeah, you can't turn back time in this respect. And I wouldn't want to because it was so exciting because of the scarcity of stars elsewhere on the schedule. Like I wouldn't want to go back to a time when I couldn't see these guys play whenever I wanted.

Yeah, that would make the All-Star game more special, but not worth the trade off. So that's okay. I think it's okay to just surrender to some extent, you know, just concede that this is the new reality and it's the new reality for all sports and MLB, I don't know if it's to its credit, but there's just, there's constant consternation about the NBA All-Star game and they're constantly like, you know, trying to switch up the format and it's going to be young guys versus old guys and the players will draft the teams and now it's going to be international versus domestic. And you know, they're trying to inject this intrigue into the game that just

isn't there anymore. And it's the same issue with the effort level where the players don't go all out. It's, it's load management. Right. Well, that's a different thing in the NBA. It's, it can be hard to watch. Yeah, that's true. At least when you watch the MLB All-Star game, it's not like guys are just lobbing it in there or like taking half ass swings or something. You don't get what you used to get where the starters were in the lineup or in the entire game. Obviously, like almost everyone's going to get in. It's going to be one or two plate appearances max and one or two innings max, but whoever is on the mound or in the batter's box at least

looks like they're trying. So that's good. They're kind of keeping kayfabe on that level, which is good because, you know, if you can tell that the effort level isn't there, that's why I'm kind of fretting about, oh, if the players signal that they don't care about this by electing not to go to the game, then does that detract from your enthusiasm? You know, how can Davey Andrews get excited about tuning in if so-and-so is not excited about attending or participating?

Well, I think there is a big difference between attending and participating. Like, once you're there, you're in the uniform, you're in front of the crowd. I can't imagine somebody going after a sinking line drive and deciding to pull up because it's just an all-star game. I don't really think that happens. Yeah, and you don't want it to be Pete Rose ramming into Ray Fosse either. So it is an exhibition, and I don't actually want these players to hurt themselves.

But it does become kind of like paper mache pitchers. Like, can we ever break glass and actually see them strut their stuff without the fear of injury? This is supposed to be a showcase for the top talent. And the top talent is like, I'm afraid to showcase my talent right now because all the incentives are pointing to,

you know, like this is something I'm gonna be paid and judged ultimately by how I perform for my team in regular season games and postseason games. And that has to be the top priority. So unless you're going to like lavish large sums of money on these players, and they'd have to be really large because a lot of these players are perennial all-stars who were deep into their careers and have already had their free agent windfalls. It's a little bit different for Jacob Isarovski, who just showed up and guys who are making the major league minimum. But yeah, there's just not going to be

the same financial incentive at stake. And it's just not quite as big a deal in the firmament of baseball. And that's kind of okay. It's still, you know, it's fun. Like if I had my druthers, I guess I would say it's more entertaining for me for there not to be a break because like the Monday of the All-Star break, you look at your MLB app and you look at the scores or the schedule and it's just, it's a yawning void. And that can be kind of disconcerting.

I mean, yeah, I'm looking forward to the Derby and the game, but I'd probably rather that there just be continuous baseball all the way through, but players are entitled to a break too. Right. I mean, the real thing that you think about is, man, not that many players get a break. And then you think about the guys who have to travel long distances to see their family for these couple days. It's not as much of a break as we maybe think of it as.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that we have settled this. We have struck some middle ground, hopefully some reasonable balance here. I would kind of like for posterity's sake, if players who were ineligible for the game, but would have made it otherwise, I think they should be official all-stars. It's just, it's a random quirk of the schedule that say their start happened to fall on a Sunday. I don't think that should be something that is held against them long term. Right. Their baseball reference page forever. Yeah. But then again, if they're 80 or so all-stars already, and you're tacking on

another 10 or however many it was who were ruled out for that reason, then suddenly there's all-star creep and everyone's an all-star and if everyone's an all-star, then it's not super special. But if you didn't have that particular excuse or some other ironclad excuse, if you just say, nah, I don't think so, then I don't think you should be an Ulster. Right. It's just going to be hard. Who gets to make these distinctions?

Yeah. Even if you were worthy, statistically speaking, you have to like show a little bit of want for it, I guess, in order to get that designation. And, you know, if we really wanted to just parse who had the best stats before the All-Star break in a specific season, then we could just look at other stats. So there are other resources available to us, I suppose, that this does not have to be the be-all end-all. It's just kind of traditionally, that's been the case.

So what else are you excited for then if you have written an all-star preview and retained your level of hype for this event? Well, I wrote the home run derby preview. I mean, I'm excited to see O'Neill Cruz hit the ball into a body of water, even though there isn't one near Truist Park. Yeah. I was actually, so I put in my preview, I was saying that I think this might be the most powerful home run derby ever. And Matt Martell, who was editing it, gave me a little pushback. And I was like, well, look at O'Neill Cruz and James Wood and Junior Kim Minero has the

second highest bat speed behind Cruz. And then you've got Byron Buxton, who is not that far behind these guys. And it's like, these are maybe the guys who can hit the ball harder than anyone on Earth, non-Aaron Judge division, except a couple of them are above Judge. So I am curious, you know, I don't, on a normal day, like exit velocity isn't the thing

that does it for me necessarily. But in this case, I am really curious to see whether they can break the record of the longest homer in derby history, which is 520 feet. The top two were both set at cores and then Aaron Judge tied the third one in Miami, but he was tied with another home run also at Coors. But I want to say it's possible tonight. I don't know if you have an opinion there. The non-Coors, Judge's home run was, I believe, 5'13", so he's only seven feet behind. And O'Neill Cruz swings the bat significantly harder, and so does Caminero.

Peter T. Leeson Soto was the one who hit the 520 foot, right? Aaron Judge Yes. Peter T. Leeson Which is, yeah, probably not the first name significantly harder and so does Kamen Arrow. Soto was the one who hit the 520 foot, right? Which is, yeah, probably not the first name that comes to mind. You'd probably default to Judge or Stanton or something. But Soto has light tower power too, in addition to somehow making lots of contact. But yeah, Neil Payne did a post about that too,

sort of projecting Derby success just based on max exit speed and average exit speed and expected isolated power and barrel rate and hard hit rate, a lot of sort of overlapping contact quality metrics, which he has found to be as predictive as anything when it comes to Derby success. And I think that is what you want. It's a home run Derby. It's not like the all around best hitter Derby. So I want to see, yeah, give me O'Neill Cruz and James Wood. You know, we don't have to do an in-depth preview

because people will have watched the Derby by the time they're listening to this podcast. But that is the type of player I would want. I guess with those guys specifically, or other guys who hit the ball hard, but not in the air reliably. That's one concern because there's nothing sadder in a derby than a ground ball out. Right.

Well, and all of those guys, you know, Wood is obviously the headliner there, but Caminero hits the ball on the ground. Cruz hits the ball on the ground. So it will be, that's what I feel like one of those guys is going to for a day win the fight against gravity and take it home. Yeah. Yeah. And that requires a real rejiggering of your swing if you don't have that stroke usually. Here's what I noticed. Wood is batting 103 since his first practice session.

So maybe he has already messed up his swing with the home run Derby Jinx. The Derby curse before the Derby. He's just getting it out of the way early. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. I'd rather you you whiff as embarrassing as that would be. I'd rather that you swing and miss because you're going all out and just trying to jack it, uppercut style, than to see you just hit a ball on the ground. Especially, it's been sad in the formats where it's not so much time as it is outs, and you just waste an out on a grounder. They have a little mix of both now.

Yeah, yeah. Which I think works well. But anyway, okay, so what I'm excited about in the actual All-Star game, because that makes more sense here, I'm excited to see PCA, honestly. There are obviously plenty of stars out there and any one of them could do something big. But the ways that he can do something jaw-dropping and kind of introduce himself to a national audience, it seems like there's a real chance for that, whether it's robbing a homer or making a crazy catch or hitting the ball 400 feet. There's a lot that he can do.

Yes. Yeah, I don't think, as we were discussing, I don't think that the All-Star game makes your name the way that it once did when just everyone was watching. And if you were Dave Parker and you had that amazing throw, that would just be the talk of the sport. And you could sort of mint your legend in that game. I don't know that that's something that happens so much anymore,

but PCA has done plenty to draw attention to himself this year, so it would kind of complete the coronation if he does something special in this game. I'm also looking forward to Skeens versus Scoobel. I mean, I know it's probably for an inning apiece or something, but Meg and I lamented when they almost matched up with each other. to Skeens versus Scoobel. I mean, I know it's probably for an inning a piece or something, but Meg and I lamented when they almost matched up with each other. There was a doubleheader ships passing in the night and they started opposite ends of the doubleheader, sadly.

So now we're, we're getting that much up and we didn't actually have to wait that long. So that's good. I do like as it pertains to the Derby when non all stars are invited, like O'Neill Cruz. O'Neill Cruz is not an All-Star. He's got a 102 WRC, but he's sitting 212. Right. And yet he's exactly who you would want to be in the Derby. I guess there aren't that many guys who would be great at a Derby who are not also good at baseball. Not that he's bad at baseball. Sometimes he looks quite good. I still have hope, but usually I guess the top tater hitters

probably are also like there's significant overlap with just the best hitters and the best players. So I don't know how many non-all-stars you would typically have. Like I guess it might feel a little embarrassing if you're, like, in the Derby and you're not an all-star and just about everyone else is. It'd kind of be like, which of these players is not like the other.

I'm not worried about Anil Cruz's self-esteem. No, I guess not, yeah. But, yeah, I like that, hey, this is a different event. This is not recognizing all around baseball prowess. This is just can you hit Titanic taters? And we know that he can. That is a skill that he possesses. So why not put on the best possible show?

Like there's something to, you know, having some star power in the derby as well as opposed to just complete all or nothing guys. But but I would want to see like, I don't know, a Joey Gallo even when he's not that good. I would watch Jean-Carlo Stanton now in the Derby if he wanted to participate. Like he might not have, you know, game speed, bat speeds as much anymore, but could he hit a batting practice pitch a mile? Absolutely. So yeah, that's the profile of the player that you want. So I applaud them going above and beyond the strictures

of the All-Star roster, even though there's still the same sort of thing that happens with the All-Star roster, where it's like, you know, Ohtani said no, Judge said no, this guy said no, Acuna dropped out, so Matt Olsen's in. I mean, you're never going to get your first picks, really, so you have to make do. Right.

And this year, I would say it's lower than it's been in a while. Only, I think it's four players were in the top 30. I'm sorry, it was five. So in that sense, it's a weaker field, but it's also just in terms of hitting the ball really far. It's a great one. but it's also just in terms of hitting the ball really far. It's a great one. Yeah, I think so. I want to ask you about another all-star who has made five starts this season,

Shohei Otani. In his five starts, he has essentially pitched one complete game now. He's pitched nine innings. He's had himself one fantastic start in five starts, most recently on Saturday. So nine innings, he has a 1.00 ERA. His FIP is so much higher. I know, 1.53, rough.

But yeah, he struck out 10. He has walked two. He has allowed one run. He has been dominant, but you would expect him to be dominant. He's sitting 98. He's thrown his hardest pitch on record in a Major League game in short bursts.

How long do you think the bursts will remain this short? Because I'm sort of surprised that it's been described as a ramp up process, but he hasn't really ramped up. Right. I mean, he just got to three innings. Right. He got to three innings, but threw 36 pitches.

So in his first start, he looked a little shakier and rustier and he threw 28 pitches in that game. So it was one inning, one inning, two innings, two innings, three innings. So there's a very gradual ramp up there, but pitch count wise, it's 28, 18, 27, 31, 36. So barely budging that top end. And I know that, you know, there's a difference between throwing 28 pitches in one inning and 36 pitches in three innings.

It's maybe a little less stress on your arm because you're not throwing them all at once, but then it's a different sort of stress because you have a few ups and downs and breaks between pitches. But I am semi-surprised, I guess, that the ramp up has been this slow. And part of it, I imagine that he's driving a lot of it

in the same way that he was behind the decision, like, okay, I think I'm done doing this during practice, let me go out and do it during the games. I imagine that he's got a pretty significant voice in these decisions too. You think. And he threw a 50-pitch bullpen session two months ago, and I know that a bullpen session is different from in-game, but but still if the plan is to, I guess it's that the Dodgers just have no real urgency.

Right. It's just they need to have him healthy, hopefully in early October and whatever happens before then, I mean, I know that, you know, they've been given a bit better competition in the NLS than people would have forecasted. And they have really run out of pitchers at various points, but they still got a comfortable buffer, you know, they're still six ahead of the Giants, five and a half of San Diego. So ultimately, they're going to be there. And they just have to couple together some combination of Otani and Snell

and Glasnow and Yamamoto, et cetera, when the playoffs roll around. So why rush him, maybe. But it is very slow. Right. I mean, it's to the point where it makes you wonder if they're certain that they are going to ramp him up this year. Yeah.

Is he just a permanent opener or reliever or something? Or at least they'll just get through this year. You know, if he's running a one ERA, you know, in one inning bursts, like, okay, we'll take that. We've got enough pitching to win the World Series like that, and then we'll figure it out next year. I hope not, just because the more Otani the better, as far as I'm concerned. And also because, yeah, if he were totally dominant in that role, then there's always the risk of saying,

well, that's just who he is now. He will never have a real start again. And that would be sort of sad. He's unquestionably been effective. But, and it's also that this is obviously, well, everything about Otani is atypical, but this was atypical in the sense that he didn't and couldn't have a rehab assignment because that would mean taking his bat out of the lineup.

So he is, he's rehabbing in real time. And I guess that makes it somewhat more understandable, but still, usually you do see some progression, you know, it's like, oh, he's throwing 20 pitches. So he is throwing 30 pitch. He's throwing 50 pitches. He's throwing 75 pitches. He is throwing 30 pitch. He's throwing 50 pitches. He's throwing 75 pitches, whatever it is. And yeah, they've kept a pretty tight rein on that, but you're right.

Maybe it is certainly a mutual decision and maybe that's the way he wants it. But I've been kind of impatient personally. I'm not saying the Dodgers or Shohei should factor that in, but my wife and I, as usual, we're scheduling our days around Otani starts and then those starts are over after a very short time. And it's just, we don't feel fulfilled. I mean, it's hard to see him come out, you know, on July 5th, he struck out half the batters he faced.

And then, and then you're like, okay, nothing left. You sure? Keep going. Let's at least let him keep going until he lets someone on or someone. Let's see what he has. I got an email from a listener named Colin with an all-star hypothetical that I want to run by you here. This is a random thought Colin had. He says, while listening to the pod, figured it would be fitting to send this in since weird ideas are what you all do, indeed.

This was all sparked by Ben's comment that Otani was on the NL All-Star roster only as a hitter. Which is the name that we should replace it with. It's the All-Star. The Rostars? The Rostars, yeah. It's like in Space, the monstars, but the raw stars. Okay.

And for whatever reason, my mind went to what if each team were able to trot out a surprise All-Star who was not on the roster and have a secret reveal of sorts during the game? Sort of seems like a WWE moment. Not really my bag, but we know Ben's proclivities. This year might not be the year to do this for Otani, but it does seem like it would be kind of fun to shock the world and bring him running in from the bullpen.

If you could pick a single mystery all-star player for each league, who would you expect? So what do you think? The mystery, all-star. So we have, already we have like the initial selections and then there's the finalists and all that nonsense. But how about we find out the roster is... Rostar is unveiled on the day of the game.

Okay, so the mystery... But we do it in the wrestling way where they... We play their walk-up music, but it's just people don't really know the players walk-up music, so they still have this moment where they go, I have no idea what song this is. Yeah, it's sort of a Masked Singer situation, I guess, maybe would be one interpretation too. So they come out, I don't know if they're wearing a mask, I guess now because they have mercifully gone back to each player wearing the uniform of their respective teams,

as opposed to the All-Star uniform. So that would be a giveaway, maybe. So you'd have to camouflage that too. But basically the idea, however the reveal happens, it's just, there's a secret All-Star. We don't know. I guess it would be hard to have the All-Star snubs discussions. Which might be good, actually. We could put an end have the All-Star Snubs discussions, which might be good, actually. We could put an end to the All-Star Snubs discussions because we wouldn't be able to rule out someone as having been selected, and then we'd be all up in arms about the Snubs and then we'd feel silly because they weren't a Snub, actually. Right.

I mean, we have two very obvious candidates in Soto, or I guess he's the main one. But yeah, I mean, I would love to see it happening for like, you know, Geraldo Perdomo or. Yeah, right. What kind of hands do you think, how many ratings would that be worth? Like, Nielsen points, Geraldo Perdomo is the mystery. Exactly, the whole stadium just, oh no! Raps.

Well, yeah, right. We're here for Perdomo and no one else. Yeah, I don't know. It would be so weird to be that player. Right. The player himself would have to know because you have to make plans for the All-Star break. So they'd have to keep it secret and everyone else would be like consoling them of too bad condolences on not being an All-Star,

and then they'd be sworn to secrecy, they wouldn't be able to talk about it. Yeah, they have to wear a ski mask at the airport, and they can't tell their family where they're going. Yes, this is sort of silly, but I like the idea of the player just coming out and the spotlight is on them and a little bit of surprise. I also think that maybe the role for this surprise player

could be the player who has a late hot streak, like a Seydan Rafael, for instance, who you look at his numbers a few weeks ago whenever voting ended, and they weren't as good as they are now because he's just been on fire since then. And it is odd, I guess, that All-Star voting starts as early as it does these days because it's not like we need the paper ballots being collected

at the ballpark and then everything being mailed and sorted. It's all online and on apps. It could happen kind of instantaneously. I guess it's as projected as it is, because there's always a sponsor. It's always the All-Star Game presented by some company you would never guess would want to sponsor the All-Star Game.

Do you happen to know off the top of your head who the sponsor is this year? Is it Build Submarines? I'm just going to guess. I don't actually know. No idea. Let's see. The All-Star Game presented by MasterCard.

Oh, OK. That might be different from the sponsor of the All-Star Ballot, though. You know MLB will always churn as many different official sponsors as possible into these things. I guess it was BuildSubmarines.com, I think, sponsored the All-Star Balloting last year. I don't know whether there's a separate sponsor

for the voting and the game itself. It's, oh, okay, it was the 2025 Pro Spirit MLB All-Star Ballot. Okay, they're also sponsoring the pregame show. I have no idea what they are. And just to be clear, I'm not asking. Clearly the sponsorship works. But yeah, I believe it's like a licensed MLB game. I think they call it like e-baseball. It's like, I don't even understand all the details you'd think I would as a video game

guy. It's like, it's a game that's an app. That's, yeah, that's all I know. So clearly it has not really penetrated my consciousness either. But that's probably the point of starting the voting as early as they still do and having it go as long as it does is that you just get more attention, more impressions, more traffic on the ballots. But I do feel for, it's like we were talking about with the quirk of the, my start happened to fall

on the Sunday before the All-Star game. It's like, if you have a late hot streak, that still counts, it's still pre-All-Star break. It matters just as much as if you were hitting well in April. I actually really like this idea. You know, and Rafael is a great example. I feel bad in an article, I was a little dismissive.

I said there's no reason to believe that he'll ever be an average big league hitter. How dare you? And someone challenged me in the comments. And I was like, I totally get your point. And maybe that was a little too dismissive. But I know him pretty well. I was running a Red Sox blog for a while.

And look at him now. I feel guilty. Don't you feel silly? Last time anyone asks you to predict anything when you wrote off Seydan Rafaela's offensive performance. Yeah. No, that would be a good use of the surprise player, I think. You could just sort by who had the hottest few weeks immediately before the All-Star game and was left off

the roster because those performances were not accounted for by the voters. And I guess MLB already has the ability to sort of stick those players in as reserves maybe, but they'd be good surprise reveals. I think they come out. There's a drum roll. There's the music plays. There's, you know, the music plays. The stadium goes dark. Everyone's holding up their smartphones. And then suddenly, boom, spotlight on Seydan Rafael running in from centerfield. My adrenaline is pumping right

now. Just just thinking of it. I mean, it would also be awkward because like number three on the last 14 days, best hitters list is, you want to guess it's Aaron Judge. Like that we'd still even in the like, we're bringing in the best hitter over the past week after Aaron Judge. Are there any unsung all-stars? You've been scanning the roster. Is there anyone you think has not gotten the press or the podcast Are there any unsung all-stars? You've been scanning the roster.

Is there anyone you think has not gotten the press or the podcast time that they should have, or you just want to highlight some aspect of their performance this season? I think Junior Caminero is in an interesting spot. There are a lot of people who I think we've done a good job of making sure people notice. Jacob Wilson has to be, if you're not a baseball sicko,

he has to be a new name to you. He's a young guy. He's playing in Sacramento. He is very much a contact hitter. And here he is as a deserving all-star starter. You know, like that's really exciting. Yeah, that's a good one and kind of a a mold breaking major leaguer in this era. It is interesting because Junior Kim and Arrow,

he's very young, obviously. This is his age 21 season. I guess he turned 22 last week. Happy birthday, Junior. A little less junior than he was. But when you come up and make your big league debut in your age 19 season, that's typically a good sign. And then you hold your own at age 20 as he did last year,

that's good. And now he's made another small stride and has been a productive player, but he is it's kind of like all or nothing. Yes. I mean, you know, the strikeout rate is, I guess, a little bit better than league average, but he doesn't walk that much. He hits into a ton of double plays. Yes, he does. As you were just saying with the hitting the ball on the ground. And so sub 300 OBP and a lot of the outs that he makes are multiple outs. And so if not for the homers, homers are really good.

And he does have 23 of them, but that line is really propped up by that power, because otherwise, there's just a lot of outs happening in other play appearances. Right, I mean, there's a lot of James Wood in him a little. I mean, he's not, you know, he's like normal human sized or something approximating it, but he's got the same... You will not believe how hard this man can swing a bat and how hard he can hit the ball on the ground. That's a good one. Yeah, I was going to mention

Aroldis Chapman, who is not exactly unsung or unknown, but he is kind of a medical miracle. Like the fact that he has remained this productive late into his career. And it's not like I'm really rooting for Aroldis Chapman. Obviously, he has the domestic violence suspension on his record. He was the first player, I think, suspended despite not being convicted, you know, under the current policy. And granted, that was about a decade ago. That was 2015. And to my knowledge, at least, he has not been a repeat offender. And Meg and I have talked about this, like you do have to leave some space for for people to reform and learn from their mistakes. And I want to allow for the possibility that that has happened.

But you know, it's not like I'm rooting for him on a personal level. It's more like I'm marveling at him because that arm of his is just an absolute outlier and it kind of always has been, but for him to be pumping gas at age 37, the way that he is, like he's having his best season in several years this year. Like he's been a part of the Red Sox resurgence. Fan graphs war wise,

he has his highest figure since 2019, which was a full season. And the fact that he's still like sitting 99 at 37 years old and is still touching like 104 ish. I think he's topped out at 103.8 is his high this year. It's so improbable that someone could do this for this long. You could probably look at any list of hard throwers and he's thrown, I think, by far the most triple digit pitches in the pitch tracking era despite being a reliever. But like 16 years into his MLB career, I just,

like whatever it is about his mechanics or his UCL, I wish that science could study that somehow and like replicate it. I wish that everyone had Aroldis Chapman's ulnar collateral ligament if not his judgment. Yeah, I mean, the crazy thing, I mean, the reason that he's pitching so well this year, I mean, his, you know, in terms of straight out rate, he is not the highest he's ever been, but all of a sudden his walk rate is 7% and he had only ever been under 10% once this decade, and that was in 2020. He's just earning, you know, like just that fastball,

people are chasing it all of a sudden. And I don't, you know, and the chase rate had been declining every season since 2017. So he is all of a sudden doing something right to earn chases with that fastball. And maybe it's just that the velocity has bumped back up, but it's also got a little more rise, and it's a little more straight rise as opposed to coming over, you know, like, you know, arm-side run to.

Like, it looks a little different. He kind of might be in a different category. But how is he doing that? I have no idea. You know, can we credit the Red Sox? It's very hard to know. When he came up, he was very much like early Spencer Strider in that he was just fourseamer, fourseamer, fourseamer. Like, you know, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013.

He was throwing fourseamers like 85% of the time, you know? And then later in his career, he started mixing in the slider more and that seemed unfair because how are you supposed to catch up with that fastball if you're sitting slider, guessing slider. And so now he throws four seamers maybe a third of the time, 40% of the time. And the rest of the time he's throwing sinkers or sliders or splitters. Like he just has, you know, for, I mean, if he has a starters arsenal a little bit. Yeah, it's weird, right? He's like, he's become more of a starter.

I guess, you know, a lot of pitchers add pitches as, as the years go on. And, but a lot of them have to compensate for declining stuff. It's like, I can't just blow the ball by everyone anymore. I better throw something with a wrinkle in it. And maybe that's true for him too, just cause the league has gotten better, but it's not like his stuff has gotten that much worse, or at least by the pure radar readings.

Like, I think I talked about this before, maybe last season, I previously marveled at this, but on his fan graphs, pitch type splits page, you can just look at his hardest pitch of every season. So starting in 2010, some of these four seamers, some of them sinkers, but 105.1, 103.4, 102.7, 104, 103.8, 105.1, 103.4, 102.7, 104, 103.8, 103.4, 105, 104.2, 104.4, 102.7, down year, 101.9, 103.8, 105.1, that was last year, and then this year 103.8. I know reading a long succession of numbers makes for excellent podcasting, but the point is like you could not tell what year it is based on Aroldis Chapman's fastest pitch. Like there's no clear trend there really.

And that just boggles my mind. Like given his peer group of pitchers who throw really hard, I just, I wish that could be bottled and taught or transplanted or something. Like when he's done pitching, he really should just donate his UCL to science. You don't really need it after you're done pitching. So, you know, that'd be a nice way to make amends for any wrongs that he has done in his life. Just, you know, donate the UCL to science. Maybe we can figure out how to protect other pitcher's arms. So he's a well-known pitcher, obviously, but is having quite a resurgence season.

And I will just always like the exception to the trends that we were talking about and lamenting earlier this year, where it's like, the Miz might come out throwing 103 and that's great but can he keep doing it? Well, Aroldis Chapman can for the better part of two decades. So I don't know how he does it. Right. There was a whole era where they were going to make him a starter. Yeah, sure.

I think the very first episode of this podcast, effectively Wild's episode one, I believe one of the topics was me and Sam debating whether it was right to put him in the bullpen, whether he should start. And this podcast has been around for quite a while in case people did not know. In fact, I think this Friday, I believe, will be the 13th birthday of Effectively Wild and of that episode.

So that's how long we've been podcasting. And that's how long, yeah, thank you. That's how long he's been throwing triple digits. In fact, he had already been doing it for a few years by the point that we started podcasting. That's just, that's ridiculous. Anyone else catch your eye on either of these rosters? Yeah, I mean, it's nice to see Jonathan Aranda getting there.

You know, like guys who have one great season like that, they don't always get the recognition. And I think Alejandro Kirk is having, you know, like, obviously, no one is having the season that Kyle Raleigh is having. No one, no catcher has ever had that season. But Kirk is playing so well and, you know, he got a contract extension before the season. And so I think that is, you know, I am glad to see him get recognition

because he really is a special player. He kind of does everything very well and he's just a lot of fun to watch. Yeah, that's a good one because he's been very valuable, obviously, but it's been partly framing value, which is real, but there's been kind of a, will he recapture that offensive potential that he showed briefly?

And yeah, he kind of has this year, right? It's true, like, Kal is sort of sucking up all the oxygen when it comes to catcher offense. Very deservingly. Yeah, oh, very, that's suggesting that we pay less attention to Kal. Just that maybe we pay even more attention to others who were kind of lost in his shadow.

We mentioned Will Smith on the pod the other day, who's been great. Carson Kelly, of course, started the season super hot. Hunter Goodman, all-star. So, you know, there are a lot of guys. Sean Murphy has had kind of a bounce back year. Carlos Narvaez has been surprisingly good, Red Sox rookie and Kirk and the usuals, you know, Yanar Diaz and William Contreras and others. But yeah, pretty robust year for catcher bats on the whole. And I also, I want to shout out and take a slight victory lap when it comes to Gleyber Torres starting second baseman for the American League. Lots of Tigers, as I joked about on this episode. And that's fine.

Tigers are an all-star team, in a sense. They've been maybe the best team in baseball, and they've had a lot of good players. And there's a lot of enthusiasm among Tigers fans, rightly so. And so there's often one fan base that doesn't exactly stuff the ballot necessarily or stuff the ballot box, but there's just a lot of enthusiasm to support players who are delivering

a strong season for them. And, you know, it's not like any of these guys are undeserving either. It's just wouldn't necessarily have expected to see Zach McKinstry in the All-Star game before the season started, but good for him. But Gleiber Torres, not that I necessarily expected him to be in All-Star, but other Ben, Ben Clemens,

and I were kind of on the Gleiber train and were wondering why he didn't generate more interest as a free agent and ultimately settled for a one-year deal that wasn't super high-souring either. And he's been good. He's been really good. He's been durable. He's played well, you know, not like super-duper star,

not the most defensively gifted, but 133 WRC+, that's better than any mark he had with the Yankees. And yeah, he's kind of coming out of nowhere. I mean, his strikeout rate is down to below 13%. He's walking more than he strikes out, which is not a thing that he has ever done before. No, tough to do these days. Also, not that it's a surprise to anyone

that Gere Crochet is good, but the fact that Gere Crochet is leading the majors in innings pitched, it's pretty impressive to me, right? Like 129 and a third innings pitch so far this season. How many innings pitched did he have as a starter prior to the season? I mean, he had 348 and a third total. Last year he was at 146. So he's going to bust through that in a couple of starts.

Yeah. And they sort of shut him down late last season and there was the whole, he didn't want to be traded without an extension and see what were the White Sox playing for and all the rest of it. But yeah, that is kind of incredible because he hadn't made a major league start

until last season. And then last season he was dominant, but 32 starts, it's not like they ever totally shut him down. It's just that they kept taking him out of games early and understandably so. So that's the sum total of his major league starting career. And he has almost equaled that innings total just in the pre

All-Star break portion of the season. So I'm not surprised that he's been great on an inning per inning basis. I'm just sort of surprised that he has thrown that many innings. So that extension looking smart. Not that people said it wasn't smart at the time, but looking even better now that he has held up like this. I know it's, it's like less than 60% of the season, right?

But still, you take your durability where you can with Garret Crochet. And I mean, they've had so many injuries in the rotation that this is a big deal to get length from him. You know, he's got 10 wins, which is maybe not the most important stat, but when you're struggling to keep guys on the mound, that's a big deal. Also happy for Ryan O'Hearn. Yeah.

At least something's gone right for an Oriole this year. That's nice at the stage of his career. And, and, you know, maybe this is a trade showcase for O'Hern, who knows. But yeah, I always like to see, it's like a lot of name brands in that lineup. It's the perennial All-Stars, and then Ryan O'Hern's in there. And it's not fluky either. He's just been very good as an Oriole.

He just turned his career around in Baltimore. He really did. And happy for friend of the pod, Brent Rooker, not only an All-Star, but a home run Derby participant, which if we have him back for another of our annual off season conversations, then that will be something fun to talk about. Jeremy Pena, just his, I don't know, resurgence, re-breakout. I don't even know how to classify it exactly.

I mean, it was weird because when he was rookie, you kind of thought, this is great. And I think everybody knew he's probably not going to hit like this long term. And so, but then all of a sudden he is doing it a couple of years later. And it's, yeah, I don't know what you call that when you didn't trust it the first time. Yeah. It's like a post-hype prospect kind of thing where we knew he could field. He just like he always had a Herculean build

where you just look at him and you're like, that guy looks like a good hitter. And he was at the start at least. And then, yeah, it turned out, wait, maybe he's not that good actually. But now, no, he actually maybe is that good. The Astros as a whole are just perplexing and kind of confusing. And just like, how are they this good, given the individual performances

on that roster and on track for yet another AL West title? Isak Paredes also, while we're talking about Astros, Meg made a bold preseason prediction that he would out-war Kyle Tucker, which is not happening, at least to this point. Kyle Tucker has been about a full win better, but it's closer than probably a lot of people would have given him credit for. And even though he's clearly built for that park,

he's an all star starter. Both he and Kyle Tucker are all star starters. So what's the difference really? I mean, I think I mean, I remember listening to that. And I think I thought that was a great prediction mainly because I was worried about Tucker's defense. Casey Mize is another one who kind of snuck up on me. Yet another Tiger, but I guess also sort of a like post-hype prospect sleeper where he was, you know, top pick, top prospect. And then just struggled, struggled to stay healthy, struggled to pitch well when he was healthy.

And it's not like he's been dominant. I mean, you know. Right. I mean, you know. Like his FIP is the same as last year pretty much. Yeah, yeah, the FIP, the ex-FIP are both in that fourish range. It's just, you know, I guess a little bit of batted ball luck or soft contact. I guess his expected ERA is better also. But yeah, so if he settled in as a solid mid rotation guy,

that's still, that's less than you would have hoped for at one point, but maybe more than you would have hoped for more recently than that point. So that's good, you know, that's what the Tigers need. I don't know that his stats leap off the page and scream All-Star to me. I guess that's another player you could single out if you're in the snubs business and say, Oh, this guy should like Nathan of Aldi, for instance.

How is Nathan of Aldi not an all-star? That's kind of preposterous because Nathan of Aldi is like, he's got 158. Yeah. So what a point five eight era. How is scubl starting this thing? He's thrown more innings than Casey Mize. He's thrown 91 innings in 16 starts. And somehow has a 1.5 ERA with a 2.36 FIP. It's not even some fluky luck thing.

I mean, yeah, low BABitt and low homerun per five ball rate and all the rest, but low high strand rate. But good strikeout rate, great control, high ground ball rate. He's doing it all. 1.5 ADRA. Make this man an all-star. Honestly, this was totally under the radar for me. I had no idea he was doing so well.

Yeah. Starting pitchers, I often think just because there are so many relievers these days, the starters are sort of outnumbered. And I know there's less of a distinction between starters and relievers now than there used to be. But they're still so much better than relievers. Right. Like on the whole, I mean, I'm just. I mean, I was just marveling at Aroldis Chapman's stats and his longevity. And yeah, like his stats are pretty eye popping.

He has a 1.1 ADRA and a 1.5 fit, but he's thrown 38 innings. Like Nathan of all these has thrown like triple the innings of Aroldis Chapman. And I'm not saying like anyone can go out there and be dominant just getting three outs at a time. But it's just an entirely different class of pitcher. It's the same occupation in the broad strokes, but starters,

not every reliever is a failed starter, obviously. There are just like professional relievers who were relievers from the start. And not every starter who's moved to the bullpen is gonna be lights out and have their stuff play up there. But every time I see a starter just go seven in one game, like one time, it's like that is so far beyond the realm of possibility for the best reliever in baseball.

You could not contemplate, you could not conceive the most dominant reliever staying out there for more than, I don't know, two innings at a time. It's just not even within the realm of possibility. What would it do to a human body to throw like a world's champion for seven innings? Sproing, I mean, I guess maybe Jacob Misrowski will find out. But it's like, you know, because they're doing the same job on a fundamental level.

They're throwing pitches, they're trying to throw strikes, they're trying to get out. But starters do it in a way that I think the degree of difficulty is just so much higher. And, you know, I know that because there are so many relievers and it's just such a staple of the modern pitching staff that you're less inclined to think about that disparity, maybe it's just like, Oh, this guy's a great starter. This guy's a great reliever. And, and those are their assigned roles and this guy's great at his thing. And this guy's great at his thing. But, but one guy's thing is just like so much harder to do than the other guys.

It's just like to go through a lineup even twice, let alone three times, which still happens sometimes. That is just so much harder to do. Yes. You could ask a starter to do a reliever's job any day of the week. Yes, and they could be competent at that. I understand there's a bullpen mentality and there's something to be said for having to get ready at an unpredictable time and having to bounce back and pitch a little more often,

though relievers these days, they don't pitch like consecutive games and days as often as they used to either. But yeah, you're pitching more often, I understand there's a different sort of stress and strain and the leverage if you're a late inning lights out guy, then it's always going to be a high pressure situation. So there are stresses that are specific to that job. I'm just saying they're not as stressful, I'm sorry. I'm still kind of a hard lighter when it comes to like, I guess Hall of Fame stuff, which I just care less about these days in general,

but I am still sort of, you know, this reliever having eye popping stats is just not comparable in my mind to this starter who is doing almost the same thing in a way heavier workload. While we're on starters, can we talk about Brian Wu? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he's basically he's pretty much putting up the same season he did last year, but it's just those are really good numbers, you know, he's got a 275 ERA and his FIP is a bit higher. But I mean, he's really saving that Seattle rotation in a lot of ways too right now. And he's just one of the most fun guys to watch as well. So it's fun to see him get that recognition. Yeah, yeah, I remarked to Meg at some point that he was almost an afterthought before in that Mariners rotation because it was so stacked and they had all these young guys who were so good and Castillo and everyone

else and Wu was like, yeah, they also have Brian Wu. He's like, you know, great guy to have in the back of your rotation. But this year he has been the most valuable pitcher on the Mariners and it's not particularly close either. So yeah, he's totally bailed them out. And there is a deception with him with the angle that he throws at, which is maybe why it was easier to miss his potential.

And he's gotten better, obviously, since he broke in. But it's not like throwing 95 is some sort of soft tosser or something, but it's... And from that angle, especially. Yeah, from that angle, it definitely sneaks up on you. And that has been working really well for him this season, which has been a boon to the Mariners. All right. Anyone else we want to highlight before we end and let the players play and hit their home runs.

We've talked about Shane Smith and his improbable post-Rule 5 selection selection. So that's kind of impressive. We've talked a little bit about Chris Bubich and the season that he has had. Some of these guys, you know, you just take them for granted because they're staples. Right. Joe Ryan.

Yeah, Joe Ryan. Joe Ryan's really good. Kind of expected him to be good. Speaking of guys with sort of deceptive stuff that that plays up. David Peterson. How about him? Yeah. You're an all star. Sorry, some some random relievers, though I feel like the relievers have gotten a little less random than they once were. I look at most of these relievers and I'm like, yeah, I knew that guy was good, even

coming into the season. Yeah, there's some very big names here. Well, you have fulfilled your obligation, as Carson Stooley used to say. No notice, no less. So I hope that Meg will return to us next time, that she and Blooper have hashed things out and settled whatever differences they might have and that he is not pursuing her in a scary way. But lots of All-Star talk and Derby talk

and draft talk to come. Always a pleasure to have you on, Davy, thanks for being a podcast reserve. Thank you so much for giving me time to get some water before pressing record. It's true. You did get like a three minute seltzer warning. So there was that. I want you to be hydrated while you're podcasting

because if you're parched, not great for a podcaster. Yeah, you don't need the mouth sounds to come with that. What a callback. You brought things full circle. All right, meant to mention this earlier, but this conversation about the All-Star Game and its quote unquote legitimacy and desirability reminds me of the world baseball classic. The U.S. team has also had a tough time filling out a pitching staff. Pitchers historically haven't wanted to get hurt in an exhibition, but suddenly the WBC is cool.

It's meaningful. It has high stakes. People care about it. It has cachet. And now we'll see if as many players excuse themselves. We've already seen someone like Aaron Judge decide to play now, but players will risk limb, if not life,

if the payoff is sufficient. And not necessarily just the financial payoff, but how much does this matter to them and how much does it matter to fans? The WBC is ascendant in those areas. The All-Star game is on the downswing, at least for now. Other follow-ups, listener Emily wrote in to say, per the discussion about moving the mound back

and how quickly players would notice, this happens in basketball a lot. Here's a link to a legendary story about Kobe Bryant. Supposedly, Kobe was bricking shots in practice and he told the maintenance crew to check the height of the rim. He said the rim's a quarter of an inch too low and allegedly that turned out to be true. As the story tells that this was in 2009, there was also an incident in the 2022 NBA Finals where the Warriors noticed that the rim at the Celtics TD Garden was 2 inches too high, this was during warmups, and a story from 2022 about Luka Doncic detecting

that the rim was crooked. All somewhat analogous to what we were talking about, how far could you move the mound back before someone would notice. Although 2 inches, or even a quarter inch on a 10 foot rim would be more proportionately speaking than the half inch or inch we were discussing with a mound that is 60 feet, six inches away from home plate. Nonetheless, professional players are perceptive. Also, got a response to our discussion the other day of which would be best or least bad.

A team of all Aaron judges, a team of all Zachers, or a team of all Dalton Varshows? Patreon supporter Max says, you touched on the relative value of position players pitching versus pitchers hitting. Back when that was part of MLB and the finding that pitchers hitting were inferior, I think it might be a different analysis to think about a pitcher, Wheeler, hitting exclusively against position player pitchers, judge, slash Varshow, and of position defenders, and might tip the balance heavily toward Wheeler? Especially the ability slash inability of Judge and Varsho to throw strikes and field ground balls. Is there any data from the time of pitcher hitting to suggest they might have been relatively better against position player pitching and or

inferior defense, especially infield? Would it be enough to move the balance of power to the team of wheelers, especially with the possibility of walks, hit by pitches, infield errors, et cetera, in the times of pitcher hitting? Were there any decent samples of pitchers hitting against position players? Well, there was a small sample. From 2008 on, pitcher hitters

have faced position player pitchers for 261 pitches, but the pitchers produced a 243 weighted on base average, which is pretty good for pitchers. Against non-position player pitchers, pitchers produced a 151 woba, if you can call that production. So almost 90 points better, still very bad, but it's true. Wheeler would be a better hitter against fake pitchers. Then again, could Zach Wheeler catch Zach Wheeler?

That's the question. We also got some suggestions for players who would be the best templates for a team entirely of one player. Of course, Shohei Otani, Mason Wynn was one suggestion. Anyone who has a high level pitching background, some two-way play experience, and some defensive versatility. Varsho's catching edge is a pretty sizable one though. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild

and signing up to pledge some month or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks. Effectively Wild doesn't take breaks, not even during the All-Star break. And that's thanks to listeners like Robert Holmes, Zeke Peterson, Sam W, James Smith and Che O'Ryan. Our deepest appreciation to all of you.

Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, prioritized email answers, playoff live streams, discounts on merch and ad-free fan crafts memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings at patreon.com slash Effectively Wild. If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email.

Send your questions, comments, intro and outro themes to podcast at fangraphs.com. You can rate, review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild. And you can check the show notes at fan graphs or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing

and production assistance. We'll be back with another episode a little later this week. Talk to you then. Thanks for watching!