Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2364: Torpedoed Bats

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about torpedo bats (remember them?), Cody Bellinger’s good year and confounding career, recent comments by Craig Counsell and Aaron Boone, the impending call-up of Bubba Chandler and the recent arrival of Owen Caissie, the weirdest things about being a pro baseball player, a zombie-runner-induced ending to a pitcher’s duel, […]

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I'm a rally of Fangraphs, and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of the Ringer. Ben, how are you? I'm not bad. How are you? Not bad. Not as good as the Bombers' bats, which were bombing on Tuesday when they hit nine home runs against the race in the Yankee's own spring training park, of course, so they're familiar with the territory. But this tied a franchise record that the Yankees first set on March 29th when they beat up on the Brewers, 20 to 9, which was. the origin story of the torpedo bats.

Remember the torpedo bats? I do. I've hardly thought about them since then. But boy, they sure consumed some mindshare at the time. For a second, yeah. You were right about that being a fad. I don't know if it's a fad. I'm sure that there are still plenty of players using it.

Yeah, I think so. We just don't hear about it anymore. It's just a total nothing burger, basically. Yeah, I mean, well, Well, like, you know, the brewers traded for a Quinn Priester and then have been better, and so it hasn't been as dramatic, you know. I know. Yeah, that's the other thing is that we were all concerned about the brewer's pitching at the time, which seems like it's okay. I guess, ultimately, it rounded into form.

But, yeah, wasn't so good that first series. But, boy, that just caused a firestorm of discourse and analysis. Yes. And it has quieted to such a degree that we just haven't brought up torpedo bats in, I don't know, months, essentially. So to the extent that they're still being used, they're just so not notable that they're a complete afterthought. So you were right. Been an age. Yeah, you thought at the time that players would experiment with them, that they'd try them.

And then they would just recede into the background, much like ax-bats or whatever other. variety of bat that's slightly different from the standard bat model but just doesn't really cause a stir and yeah that's exactly what happened ax bats man i haven't thought about ax bats in a minute i understand why people had a little bit of a hey what's going on there kind of reaction to it because their performance in that stretch was dramatic i think the part of it i found a little concerning was the swift turn toward conspiratorial thinking where I was like, well, we can see them, though. We can see those bats are there for us to all see. You know, we can see him.

I bet the office of the commissioner can see them. I bet it's fine. But I don't know. How many guys are currently using torpedo bats? Some number. I have no idea. Yeah, because no one's writing about it or reporting on it anymore, really. For a while there, it was like we had a running tally of everyone who had a torpedo bat and who was ordering a torpedo bat.

and who was ordering a torpedo bat and who had tried a torpedo bat and who said they weren't interested in trying a torpedo bat and now who knows I have no idea how many people are still using them. Some guys probably

and other guys less so, you know? Yeah, which was always sort of what it was bound to be. It wasn't really something that was designed to help every single player but for a while there it sure looked like the hot new thing

and yeah, now it's just it's yesterday's news it's March's news And it really was just a perfect storm created by the circumstances of beginning of the season, Yankees, just totally teeing off and having a historic performance. And some of those guys aren't even using torpedo bets anymore. They still hit nine home runs and they've had plenty of problems. And the brewers have righted their pitching performance.

And if it hadn't happened at that time to that team, then it probably never would have. have popped off the way that it did. It might have just been an undercurrent, maybe every now and then you'd notice. But people had been using them prior to the season and no one noticed or cared. So it was just a confluence of circumstances that caused that to be the biggest story in baseball for about a week. And then crickets. Crickets, the big bang, sort of like that, you know, or like something crawling out of the primordial ooze, but not getting immediately eaten on shore. I mean, you know, something like that.

It's sort of an ooze-related situation, if you think about it. It's just very amusing. It just, it was a moment in time. It takes me back to March of 2025 or early April of 2025. We remember where we were. It's kind of like you remember some guys who have a really hot spring training, or maybe they start the season on a total tear, and then it turns into a fluke or a mirage,

and then they get cold again. But we remember, oh, remember when that guy started that season, just this torrid streak that was not sustained. And that was sort of true of torpedo bats on the whole. So I hope we get some follow-up stories at the end of the season or something. I hope we get a tally, a percentage of players who ultimately did try them or used them or continue to use them. Now that it's not the cool new thing that everyone feels peer pressured to try anymore. There's no FOMO for torpedo bats, so only the true belief. are probably still swinging them.

So I'd like to see some reporting about just the how sticky they prove to be. Yeah. But there's just nothing because no one cares anymore because it's clear you look at the offensive numbers and it was not a panacea. It was not a magic wand or bat or anything. It may help a little on the margins with some guys and that's just not super exciting. Well, I'm given to understand the bats are not sticky, Ben. I don't know if that would be.

Well, I do know. I do know that this weekend, if I remember the schedule correctly, the Dr. Allen Nathan is maybe going to offer some research on this question at Saber Seminar. So I will make sure to be in the room for his session and see what conclusions he has drawn. But yeah, I don't think it has inspired much dialogue lately because, you know, the effects were sort of explainable, or at least some of the contributing factors to that surge were explainable. And, you know, we got distracted and busy with other things, as we so often do. So here we are.

Two of those home runs were hit by Cody Bellinger, two of those this week. I mean, Cody Buncher has had a heck of a season. He has been the most valuable Yankee not named Aaron Judge. He's up to about four war by Fangrass figuring. And he's done exactly what the Yankees hoped he would do. He's just been a pretty good hitter. He's been in the lineup. He's been a pretty good defender.

He's just, you know, given them versatility and backup. And what a pickup that was. I know that everyone is tarring and feathering Brian Cashman as usual. But that was a pretty slick trade, I would say, on his part to get Bellinger for nothing but money. And Cody Petit has not been any better than expected for Chicago. And Ballinger's making a reasonable amount of money for. the production that he has supplied, that was just a nifty little pickup there, I think. And I remember saying at the time, and I know Joe Sheehan was writing at the time, that it seemed like a strange

salary dump for the Cubs because they didn't need to trade Cody Belanger. They picked up Kyle Tucker, and then they just felt moved to move Cody Bellinger. And I get that there was some blockage and there were some positional log jams and they had some other guys at the positions that he played, but he plays enough positions that he seemed bound to be useful for them at some point. And they just gave him away. And maybe they said something to the effect of they would put that money towards something, but they didn't. They didn't really do anything significant after that, as I recall, in the offseason. And they didn't do anything particularly aggressive at the trade deadline either. So they just sort of gave away a perfectly fine Cody

boundary. Yeah, and now, you know, they could really use him as, um, as Kyle Tucker goes through his pumpkin phase. Yes. Although they do have Owen Casey, who's, uh, had himself a fine doubleheader sweep over the brewers on Tuesday. Yeah. Had a, had a good little run in his early big league career. It's nice. Yeah. Love this little, uh, 45 day warning time when the prospects come up and, and it doesn't cost them their rookie eligibility next year. And, So we see Owen Casey come up. We see Samuel Bessayo, who we talked about last time. And we are seeing Bubba Chandler finally making his debut on Friday for the Pirates.

And he's had to wait a while, and it seems like he's been frustrated by that, which I think he has acknowledged. And perhaps it has even affected his performance, some stagnation, some just a little bit of upset about not getting called up sooner. And sometimes that does take a toll on a player's performance when they feel like, hey, I'm in AAA and I'm ready and I got the stats and I got the stuff. And now I'm just sort of marking time until the team will finally call me up. Sometimes that saps some motivation. So he's had sort of an up and down season after a hot start. But sort of excited to see him make his major league debut. Should be fun.

Do you find it odd? Well, I have to offer two things. So the first is that I think that, depending on if he gets sent back down, I think that Owen Casey will have enough time that he'll not be rookie eligible next year. Isn't that right? I think that he's, I think he's a day, maybe a day over, if I remember correctly, because he came up on the 14th and the final game of the, or final day of the regular season will be the 28th of September.

And I think that puts him right at 46 active roster days, assuming that he's up the entire time, which I guess they could send him back down, although I can't send him back down now. I don't know if you know this, but he helped them smooth brewers. So anyway, I have to be a stickler about the active roster day thing because I feel like it feels like a Sisyphian task, you know, to get people to think about that part. Not you, Ben. I know you were just forgetting what day he was called up. but other people, you know? The September days count now. It's hard to remember the minutia of rosters.

It's a very inside baseball, sicko sort of thing to routine. It is. And you know what? It's no woods fault but the leaks. And here I don't mean to put anyone on blast. So I'm going to put the general entity of Major League Baseball on blast. They know, you know, they know. And they won't tell everyone they should just publish a list at the end of the year.

And people said, oh, it's just. I know it's hard. I have to count the days manually. You think that what you're doing is harder than what I'm doing. I think not. I think absolutely not. So it's not one's fault, but there's, and someone knows because the pipeline account will be like, after the graduation of so-and-so, based on roster days, this person

is under the top 30 of the, and so someone knows, this is a social media person, no better than you, I think not. I'm only being a little bit serious, but I am being a little bit serious. So I don't, whoever listens to this at the league, like, oh, that Meg, she likes to joke. I do, but I also want you to know that some of the best jokes have a seat of truth in them. You know, that's what makes them good jokes. Yeah. Anyway, this has been Meg stumping for just a list, just a little list at the end of every championship season,

being like, these guys are no longer prospect eligible. We know because we have to say, I assume, I assume, Ben, sorry, I'm just doing a little rant, and then we can talk about the very, the very, the very, look, it is important. And, and some of this information is available in the stats API. And I want you all to know, I know that. I know. But here's the thing. You should still publish a little list.

And I imagine you have to publish a little list because you have to tell your betting partners, hey, these guys graduated last year so that they don't include them for rookie of the year votes. Because that happened one time. I think with Gabrielle Marino, it was definitely with a catcher where they were like, he is eligible. And he wasn't eligible. He had graduated. He graduated based on roster days.

And then they had to avoid bets. And I bet that was annoying. And I bet MGM was like, hey, we're the official gaming partner. or major league baseball would have been nice to get a little list. This is me editorializing. I don't have a direct quote from anyone. I haven't talked to anybody at MGM. I don't think they want to talk to me. I have bad things to say about sports batting.

But anyway, all of that to say that yeah, you know, sometimes we get this time where guys who have, they've done all they can. You know, they've done all they can at the highest level of the minors. They need to go prove it. Now, the part of this that I do find a little

odd, and I agree with you that, you know, maybe the issue is just a plateauing because of frustration, because of wanting to be promoted, why am I not up there? I've done all of the things. I've pitched so many endings. Won't you please let me come pitch in the majors? But then am I right that I read they're going to use him in like a long relief role? They're not going to have him start. Yeah, I think I think you're right that he's coming up Friday, but evidently beginning his career in the bullpen. Yeah, which is, it's not an unusual way to break in a pitching prospect, but still.

Yeah. So anyway, I'm just, I'm, I'm confused about the, the Bubba of it all. Bubba Chandler, you're like combining two very common names, you know, to there's a proliferation of Bubba's, I feel like I'm putting Bubba Chandler, who I feel confident does not listen to our podcast on the spot. Bubba, if you are listening, I'd like to know how I feel about this. Bubba is obviously not Bubba Chandler's, like, given name. That's not on his birth certificate. His name is Roy Rubin Chandler. He goes by Bubba.

I don't know how I'd feel about being an adult called Bubba. You know? Buba feels like a... I'm sorry, that's just like a baby's name. That feels like the name of not even a child of a baby. I would feel more comfortable being like, oh, Bubba. I'd feel weird calling a kid who, like, knows how to read Bubba.

You know, it's not like a bad name. It's not like a mean name. I don't mean it like that, but it just feels like a baby's name. It feels like a much younger human being's name. So that's why I would feel weird. A noise that a baby would make maybe. Yeah. Yes.

That's why. Yes. This is why. You are absolutely right. Like a baby who is like pre-verbal but starting to do the thing where they like make sounds where you can tell they're like kind of starting to piece it together a little bit or they're like, oh, I know. Dabbling or mama. Yeah. Bubbing.

Yeah. A bubbing. You could call it. You could tell me. You could tell me that pediatricians refer to. that period of pre like word verbalization as the bubba face and i would believe you i would believe you because it sounds like a sound they make yeah you know yeah i don't know if i want to be a baba myself but i enjoy a bubba i enjoy saying bubba look bubba's fun to say yeah part of it too is

that it reminds me of gum you know it reminds me of gum and babies not the friday show yeah not quite Not yet. Anyway, it's true. Bubba probably doesn't listen to Effectively Wild, but you never know. You never know. About to be teammate, Paul Skeens, has been on Effectively Wild. So for all we know, Bubba's listening, and if so, hello. And sorry, we sort of made fun of your name a little bit.

I think it's a fine, it's fine. I don't think it's like, well, I don't want to name other names that we've kind of made fun of because then we'll be making fun of them again. Some of those names were attached to children and people took exception to it. But I'm just saying that me personally, me Meg, I'd feel weird being called Bubba. Well, it would be weird if you were Bubba probably. I mean, I don't know if that's not typically a girl's name. No, typically it's a name associated with a boy.

A boy, a little boy or a baby. I think of Bubba Gump. There are many, many big Bubba's out there anyway. Yeah, like, isn't there a gum? Isn't Bubba? Isn't Bubba Yum a gum? I forgot that the story, and there have been many big league Bubba's, even in some years of years. Of course, I remember Bubba Crosby.

Many Bubba's. Yeah, there have been some Bubba's going back away. It's a name with the tradition. Totally. Yeah, it's a baseball nickname. It's a baseball nickname. It's a nickname. They're bovas.

Yeah, it's not an uncommon nickname. Yeah. There are many other more surprising names. slash nicknames out there, and we've remarked on some of them, too. I don't think it's odd. It just, it just reminds me of babies. I forgot that the story with Casey was that he was called up seemingly, perhaps, as a treat for him, because the Cubs were in Toronto. Right, he's Canadian.

Yeah, and so they called him up to give him his debut in front of his hometown crowd, I suppose, right? So that was nice. And then he was robbed of a hit by Davis Schneider. which would have been a nice moment for him. So maybe that's why they called him up with one day to go before that soft deadline. And he's from Burlington, Canada. And maybe they will then demote him at some point. Maybe.

But nonetheless, I guess that was a nice gesture. I also forgot something I saw the other day, which is maybe the final blow, too, but not by the torpedo bat, which was when Miles Straw of the Blue Jays, hit two home runs the other day. He switched from a torpedo bat to a standard traditional model and then hit the two homers and said he's probably not going back to the torpedo models. Maybe that was the nail in the coffin of the torpedo bat when Miles Straw decides that he can access his power better. Poor Miles Straw.

With a standard bat. Yeah, that's the latest torpedo bat update that I actually saw. that Miles Straw has forsaken the torpedo. Anyway, we were talking about Cody Belanger, and I was just celebrating his season. And I really think because even now, it still seems like a little bit of a letdown. It's like this is his most valuable season, maybe.

I mean, he had the bounce back two years ago with the Cubs. We'll see where he ends up. I guess he hit a little bit better that year. He might end up with more war, depending on how he finishes the season. But it's a very solid season. and yet it still feels kind of like we anchored to 2019 Cody Bellinger and just remember him as a 23-year-old MVP who hit 47 homers and was like an eight-win player. It's tough to really effusively praise a four-win season when you had an eight-win season at that stage in your career.

Right. Plus, I guess, as a rookie, he was a four-war guy, but he hit 39 homers that year with a 138 W. Racy Plus, and that was just 132 games, his first taste of the majors. So that plus then the MVP campaign a couple years later, it felt like the sky was the limit for him. And I remember Sam writing an article for ESPN back then and basically saying, like, we should pay attention to Cody Bellinger because you never know, he might hit the most home runs ever.

He might just be the best home run hitter ever. And that has turned out not to be the case, but it could have been the case, the fact that it was even conceivable at one time speaks to just how highly touted Cody Bellinger was. And then his career got confusing after that. Yeah. And injury plagued. And he declined with the Dodgers and he bottomed out with them in 2021. And then was also pretty bad in 2022, a bit of a bounce back.

And then he just kind of got cast off and the Cubs picked him up and he had a bigger bounce back. but to a very good level as opposed to superstar level. And so that's what he sort of settled in at, or I guess he was that in 2023, and he is that this year with the sort of decent season in between. It's just, it's been hard to pin down what and who he is and what kind of player he is and how much the decline was because of injuries and how much of it was because of mechanical changes precipitated by the injuries. So it's just a really hard career to see.

sum up. And, you know, he just turned 30 like a month ago. So he still got years ahead of him, but it's just hard to sort of sum up who he is as an almost 30 war career at this stage. It almost reminds me of Jason Hayward, who had a similarly sort of up and down career and was sort of disappointing because his rookie year was maybe his best offensive season, at least on a rate basis. And then he had that 27 home. run year and never really came close to that before or since and just sort of settled in as good defender, good base runner, good clubhouse guy who just never had the pop that it seemed like he might have at some point. And between the contract and the early promise, he was just

kind of always disappointing. Like he's, you know, still bouncing around. He's been a big leaguer this year, but it felt like the promise was not fulfilled. And I kind of get that same sense about. Cody Bounder, even though he is the second best player on a presumptive playoff team this year, which is not nothing. I feel like his career has contained, even within the seasons that have been so good, like all of this contrast, right? Because he was so good in that rookie campaign. You're right.

He had a four one season. And then do you remember that 2017 postseason where it was just like he could not lay off? He couldn't lay off like back foot. breaking stuff at all. It was just like, you know, good luck, buddy. You're gonna, you're gonna flail at that. You're gonna swing through and you're just gonna be toast. And so you were like, okay, he's good, but there was this obvious issue. But then, you know, the follow-up season wasn't bad. And then 2019 was so superlative to your point. And then like, eh, 2020. So you're like, once we got into 21, it was very arresting where we maybe even as early as, that off season we were like okay there's injury but like what's going on here and then you know he gets into 22 and we're like pretty early in that season I feel like we started being like is this guy going to be like a non-tender candidate you know like is that where we're headed with this guy so it's just it's been a real peaks and valleys kind of time and I don't know that

I have really affixed my expectations to any particular peak or valley I think that my main impression of Cody Bellinger's career has just been like, I don't know what to make of this guy, you know? Like, I don't know where Cody Bellinger's, like, true talent lies in a way that is unusual for someone who's been in the league since 2017. And I didn't even feel like, oh, well, just, you know, it's probably somewhere in the middle, like, average. I was like, this is more of a Jekyll and Hyde kind of a guy where there are going to be seasons where he's just, like, really on it. And then there were going to be years where you're like, a buddy you know um and so i don't know i don't feel like i still don't feel and some of it is how do i say

this politely like you know a face that often is indecipherable in terms of an expression you know like a man who looks like he's constantly staring out on the wonderment of the universe perhaps yes hated by a little something so um i'm not saying that that is what's going on i'm saying That's what the face looks like, okay? Not that that's what the, right? It's like a, wow, you know, he often seems like he's got like a whoa kind of going. So there's that. Plus there's the, I see people still struggling with this, which is wild because he is, again, has been in the league since 2017.

Part of it, I guess, is maybe like people still calling him clay. Sometimes people call him clay on accident. Oh, yeah. I mean, he has probably surpassed. Clay Bellinger in most people's eyes, not mine. Of course, he still has a ways to go to overcome his father and the significance that his father has to me as a young Yankees fan and a person who got the autograph of Clay Ballinger

and was like the first player autograph I ever got and cared about. So that was exciting. I love that for you. Yeah, former effectively wild guests. Clay Belanger, Cody has not yet been on the podcast. So that's something he has not surpassed his father. Real knock against him. I know.

Yeah. And just the pure pennant to season ratio that Clay commended, few have equaled. So it's a tough legacy to top. But he probably has in many people's minds and he still has years to go. I think probably also the positional movement has something to do with how hard it has been to just clock him because he's been primarily a first baseman in some season. primarily a right field or some seasons, primarily a center field or some seasons. And he could do it all, which was a point in his favor, like being an excellent defensive

centerfielder. And then it felt almost like a waste to play him at first sometimes. But he's been pretty versatile and flexible when it comes to that, which is always nice. But I don't know that he's quite gotten the fame for that, say, Ben Zobris did or Chris Bryant for a while or other Dodgers when they had their team. pretzel situation. So, I don't know, it's just a really fascinating career and he's probably going to end up having been a very valuable accomplished big leaguer. And yet he will probably be someone who's remembered as the guy who was rookie of the year and MVP in his third season and

never quite returned to those heights. But they were very high heights. So he can still be a really good player despite being lower than those heights. Sure. Yeah. And, you know, I, funny too because like been on important teams right been on teams that are good in the modern era and also teams that are just like historically important to baseball as an institution and yet he can he can be kind of a cipher at times fascinating guy fascinating yeah very much so okay well while we're on the subject of the yankees i wanted to ask you okay this is this is only partly about the Yankees, which is the more embarrassing managerial misstep? And this is going to be Aaron Boone versus Craig counsel of Cody Belanger's former team, the Cubs. So managerial faux pa in the press

with public comments. Okay. So Aaron Boone and Aaron Judge, the errands were a little bit at odds earlier this week because Boone made a comment when he was on sports radio, which is probably a mistake to start with. So he was on WFAN. Yeah, automatically in error. He was asked about, he was asked about Aaron Judge and his timetable and when he'll be back in the field because he's been deaching since his return in early August with the flexor strain in his elbow. It's been hitting better of late. So people are wondering when, if he's, ever he will be back in the field this season. So Boone said, I don't think we're going to see him throwing like he normally does at any point this year, but that's okay. We've got to feel

like he can go out there and protect himself. And he said that there's no timetable on his return to the field. And as you heard, just discounted the possibility that he's going to be back to 100% throwing-wise. So then the press goes to the other Aaron and says, what do you think about this. And Aaron Judge says he feels way better than he did earlier this month when he couldn't throw the ball 60 feet. Now he can throw it 250 feet. And he said, I don't know why he said that. He hasn't seen me throw for the past two weeks. So I'm pretty confident I'll get back to 100%. So a little public call out by the captain there. Not just disputing what Boone said, but questioning why he would have said such a thing.

And then, of course, everyone flocks back to the other, Aaron. I'm imagining just like the gaggle just en masse, just like going from one Aaron to the other, just sticking the microphone in the face. Other Aaron said this. How do you respond? So other Aaron, Aaron Boone, then walked back what he had said, said he may have overstated the situation with his initial comment.

He said, is he going to come back and be a 70? 80 arm. I don't know that I'm expecting that necessarily, but when we get him back out there, I would expect him to be able to handle it. So, okay, that's one little managerial step in the press. Okay. The other involves Craig Counsel of the Cubs, embroiled in scandal because he seems to have been caught in a falsehood. Because he was asked, I believe, by the Chicago Tribune, about his former team, the Brewers, and their 14-game winning streak, you know, now division rival of counsel's Cubs. And he was asked about whether he could appreciate the winning streak,

something along those lines. And counsel said, what's so great about it? I mean, they're playing good. They're playing great. They haven't lost since we played them. And the real sin is that he played dumb when it came to the George Webb Burger giveaway. Oh. And he maintained that even though he's from the Milwaukee area, he grew up in that area,

he said that he just, he said that I've never seen a George Webb. He's like he's never set foot in one. Like the restaurant? Yeah. Isn't it a chain? Yeah. And he said he preferred cops, which I've never seen a copse. That's K-O-P-S and that is, I'm telling the truth.

I assume that is. another Midwest burger chain. I'm just not familiar. Sorry, but you won't find a quote of me contradicting this. I guess it's Cops' frozen custard, I guess. Oh, okay. Yeah, and they serve burgers because it's Midwest, so you've got to have meat available on the menu,

regardless of what it is. So he's partial to cops. He said he was not in line for a burger at George Webb in 1987 in a previous burger giveaway. just basically professed ignorance and indifference this whole thing. Can I ask a clarifying question? I don't know if it's obvious from the reporting. Did he offer the year the last burger?

I doubt it. Okay. So this was, you were just clarifying or the reporter was just clarifying when the last one was. It would probably be hard to maintain your ignorance if you knew that off the cup. Right. Yeah. I was going to say off the cup. Of the cops.

Yeah. So then fans, I believe, unearthed receipts. Yeah. Pointing to Craig Counsel's former familiarity with George Webb. And it turns out that he actually, he knew all about George Webb. And he is now maintaining that he did not because I guess he's sort of salty about this now. And, you know, it's a division rival and it's his former team. But people found evidence that in 2018, he had commented on this.

Nothing's ever gone on the internet. And, you know, he had to know that people would probably dig this up. And he actually, he knows George Webb well. He is very familiar, in fact, with this. So here's a tweet. this is actually by a Fox News 11 reporter named David Goh who did the legwork here. I don't, I think he was quote tweeting someone else, I think, who had onerced this just for greater visibility, basically. But yes, he had said, so this is back in 2018, when the Brewers had 12 straight victories back then and got them Free Burgerers back then.

And counsel said at the time, who knew that we would make it this far? And the biggest piece of stress going into this game would be George Webb's hamburgers. The story continued at the time. Counsel knows the promotion well. His dad worked in the Brewer's front office during the 1980s. Right. And counsel was in the stands for the brewer's famous Easter Sunday comeback in 87, which gave them 12 straight victories to begin the season and sealed free hamburgers for the populace.

Quote, I remember the concept of free hamburgers. going back so long, it's hard to believe that it's never happened since then, counsel said. I guess it's a pretty good streak,

but it's something for everybody to talk about for sure. And I mean, free hamburgers is free hamburgers. I know you all will be there. So he knew all about

the web burgers. And now it's just the cover up is worse than the crime. There are stories. There's a sports illustrated tweeting. Craig Counsel's comment

fell apart under scrutiny. He's been caught. It's just, it's Burger Gate. Burger Gate. No one else called it that as far as I'm aware, but I know that you think we make too many things gaits. We do. But this qualifies because this is, I mean, this tarnishes his reputation, I've got to say. Yeah, but the place isn't called, the restaurant isn't called Burger Gate.

No, it's not. Watergate's a real place. You can stay there now or maybe you can't. I think it's apartments now. Maybe it got converted into condos, probably its own scandal. so obviously like the more important quote unquote controversy here and I I hesitate to even call it a controversy it's more of a dust up you know it's probably the the errands the various boons and judges because it's it suggests that there is potentially a lack of communication in the clubhouse in a way that is relevant to a playoff team right and the best player on a playoff team and So in that respect, like, it has the potential for the greatest on-field impact. But counsel's thing is funnier, for sure.

Man, what a, like, the, truly the promo that keeps on giving, right? It gives you, if you're lucky, and in the greater Milwaukee area, a free burger, which, like, if you like burgers, that's great to get one for free. You love that. And then also easily the dumbest controversy I've heard in a while. Like, it is a weird, it's a weird lie, you know. On the one hand, again, a very unimportant lie when it really comes down to it. He's not lying about something that is like in the national interest. He's lying about burgers.

That's weird. But that's a weird thing to lie about, especially because you have to know, one, that you should just have like a passing familiarity with this if your credit counsel and your history with the team is what it is not only in terms of your own managerial career but your father's affiliation with the club also so people are just going to assume that you know what this is there's no there's no shame and knowing people are so proud of that people love that promotion man like people are people were chanting about burgers on that broadcast they were doing is there like a a special like separate promotion that you unlock if you extend because like they

they like you know they met that streak and then they kept winning you're past it yeah yeah do you get like do you get like a freak custard or something i do i do miss like we have culvers here and i have an at it because like it feels weird to eat at a culverse outside the Midwest you know it feels like I'm betraying something like the people of Madison are going to get like a chill and not know why man you know where it wasn't 116 degrees Madison did get muggy though could get very muggy in the summer Madison anyway it's a dumb controversy it's a dumb thing to lie about of Craig Craig of course they're going to track this down they're going to run it down buddy There is an out here where he could maybe claim that this wasn't an out-and-out lie, because while I'm looking at the Chicago Tribune piece that started this all, and it says, Council didn't recall getting a free burger in 87 when I asked him about his childhood memories. In truth, he said he was more a fan of the burgers from Cops Frozen Custard, another Wisconsin staple.

Quote, honestly, I've never seen a George Webb, counsel said, referring to the restaurant, not the person. Well, yeah, the person was dead by then. Yes, right. I mean, George Webb had passed by the time. He's long gone. Yes. Yeah. But his son had a sense of honor, I guess, and decided to do the promo. The claim in the original article as written is that he's never seen a George Webb, not that he was entirely ignorant of the existence of George Webb or the streak.

However, I will just throw this out. there to our Wisconsin residents, how plausible this is that he's never seen. It's not even I've never set foot in one. Right. Plus, how does he know that he prefers that he's more of a fan of the burgers from cops if he's never been in a George Webb and tried their burgers? I mean, I guess he could be more of a fan of something without even having tried George Webs.

I guess that's possible, too. But I don't know. This doesn't really pass the sniff test. There's a local radio host of Bart Winkler who also sort of surfaced these earlier quotes and said, this is such a lie from counsel, but it's such a minor lie. But it's still a lie he felt like he had to make because when you were a lying liar who lies, you were compelled to lie about everything. What a dork.

That seems strong. That seems like a lot. I think everyone needs to just like take. An act being ground there perhaps. A breath. Someone else who he was quote tweeting, I assume a local, said, why would Craig Counsel lie about never seeing a George Webb in person? That's factually not possible living in Wisconsin as long as he has.

I can't judge that, but I believe there are upwards of 20 George Webb restaurants, all located in Wisconsin and mostly in the Milwaukee area. So it does seem to strain credulity, really, that he could never have seen a George Webb, even from afar. So it does a smack of some saltiness here. And to be fair, I guess what is he supposed to say about the fact that the Brewers were just running away with the division when he was asked about this? I mean, you know, what's your reaction manager of the division rival Cubs and former manager of the Brewers to them beating up on the Cubs and opening up a large division lead? Yeah, what's he supposed to say? Like, so happy for the guys over there. you know like it's still have some friends in the organization it's just it's a thrill to see them

winning so much you know so to say what's so great about it i mean okay that sounds sounds a little sour grapesy like it's pretty great to win 14 days in a row pretty that's a pretty petulant but also the question you know what is he exactly supposed to express there i guess other than some platitude about how well they've been playing so anyway those are the two minor managerial You're right. The Aaron Boone one is probably much more significant if it speaks to some sort of actual miscommunication between the team's manager and the most important player, which everyone who loathes Aaron Boone, which is every Yankee fan, as far as I can tell, quickly seized on this as an example of organizational dysfunction and Boone not knowing what he's doing. And who knows, maybe that was blown out of proportion to. It's not ideal, obviously, when your captain and your superstar and your high. as paid and best player contradicts something that you said publicly and also does it in a way that questions why you said it, you know, that suggests that perhaps there's some tension under that situation because there would have been a more diplomatic way for Judge to express that

and he's not normally someone who's going to call people out or be very quotable. So, yeah, that speaks to perhaps not being on the same page or some discord even, probably more important than whether Craig counsel has seen a George Webb or not. Yeah, and again, we're not trying to, like, overstate the case here or anything like that, but it is a little surprising. It's just interesting when folks decide, like, I'm going to smooth the way for my manager here and then address this with him later and when they opt not to do that. And I can understand Yankees fans seizing on it, not only because of their sort of base disdains, seemingly for Boone, but also just because he so rarely says really anything at all,

you know? Yeah. And so for him to elect to do it suggests like a frustration or, you know, some sort of schism, but it also might just suggest that like he's tired, you know, you just don't, you know, no, I don't want to, again, I don't want to make more of it than, than the situation merits. But it would, it would make me perk up a little bit if I were a fan of the team and be like, Huh, wonder what's going on there, you know? I love them on the Brewer's subreddit, and they're scrutinizing the council comments and someone saying,

when he was in high school, there was one on Oakland near Kensington right on the edge of Whitefish Bay and Shorewood. So I find it unlikely that he never saw that one. They're going through like where the George Webb locations were when counsel was playing in the area in high school, when his dad worked for the brewers, when he was a player for the brewers,

when he managed the brewers. When the brewers earned free burgers during his tenure, it seems that it's striking most Milwaukee people as implausible. I think that there should just be a lot more promotions where people get free food, you know? I think that if you're, I think that's great, you know, people were going, people were going bonkers for that promotion. They were really, they were really quite excited. And, you know, like, it's the perfect thing because you're already. stoked. Your team is doing so well. You've won so many games that you, a person who had nothing to do with it, get free stuff. You have to really be good if that's the case, you know.

And so I get people being like really amped about it. But people, people were really amped about it, Ben. They were like, whoa, amped. People on the subreddit are saying that in the 80s and 90s, there were more than 50 George Webb locations. So it would have been even harder. I guess there's been some change in the fortunes, perhaps of George Webb, some consolidation, some contraction. So it would have been even harder to avoid seeing one when he was in high school in the area anyway. Well, maybe they were, maybe they were not falling on hard times. Maybe they were like over franchised. You know, sometimes you get a little ahead of yourself. Maybe that's what happened, you know. Yeah, although they can have been ubiquitous if Craig Counsel never saw one.

That's true. That's a real. It's a real dumb conundrum. I'll tell you what. Yeah. We need someone now to place Craig counsel at a George Webb or with a George Webb in his sightline. Right. Or like holding a burger that has. Yeah, like a discernible rapper.

He's like the hamburger or something, just like disposing of the evidence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Back to other public comments made by people in baseball. Well, after we talked about the Catele-Marté controversy last time, he did speak through an interpreter, and he apologized specifically for missing some games after the All-Star break. And Tori Lavello talked about it and praised him for taking ownership of this mistake, and perhaps now the Diamondbacks will put this behind them. But through his interpreter, Marte said, initially the intent was to come back on Thursday.

day and be with his team in practice. He wants to publicly apologize for not backing that up. I mean, he obviously knew the circumstances of his situation. He got frustrated and was in a bad spot. He truly wants to apologize for his teammates and everybody else and said that his teammates still back him and have faith in him. And also went on to say he's had injuries in the past. And that is a plan that is being integrated within the coaching staff and himself in order

to keep him on the field. It's intended to be for recovery. In those days off, he does everything that he needs to do in order to get himself back on the field and help the team win. So he acknowledged it publicly, and maybe now that this dirty laundry has been aired, teammates will be mollified and everyone will move on. Perhaps that's that. But it did strike me.

So, you know, this is to just kind of go awall even for a few days. it's certainly out of the norm in baseball. They put him on the restricted list for a couple games. And the Diamondbacks won all three of the games that he missed, but I don't know that that placates people because it's the thought that counts or the lack of thought that counts. And even though he had been burgled, it's just not something you can do in baseball

without some opprobrium to just kind of take some personal time. But it is one of the many weird things about baseball. that you can't take any time off during the season without being pilloried. And I understand why that is and there are valid reasons for that. But basically, he's being criticized here for just, like, you take in a couple personal days, essentially. And granted, it doesn't seem like he did a good job of communicating that either. But nonetheless, in most professions, this would mean nothing.

This would be, okay. I'm taking a couple days. Like, you get a certain number of days. Now, baseball is different for any number of reasons. For one thing, you get a large chunk of the year off. You know, like there's an off season, and it lasts for several months. And granted, you still have to train and work out and do things to prepare for the season. It's not like complete leisure, but you are largely left to your own devices.

Plus, you make a lot of money. And it's a very desirable job. and many people want to do it. And so, yes, you have to actually show up and be there. But this is a strange thing because as a baseball player, you're not getting a break, really, for months on end. That's where the idea of the grind comes from. You get the All-Star break, which is all of, what, three days?

And you don't even get that if you're an All-Star, as Marte was. You're still traveling. You're still in uniform for at least one event there. So it's just a little blip in a season. in which otherwise you are working commonly six days a week, if not seven days a week, for several months on end, which even though you do get several months then to decompress and recover from that experience, it's still a lot, right? So it's just a very odd thing. And until recently, you couldn't even take time off for important life events without people criticizing you, maybe even teammates. sniping about it, but certainly media members taking you to task for that.

And even now, essentially the only reason that you are excused is for a birth or a death. Yeah. Like if someone very close to you dies or someone very close to you is born, if you have a kid, then it's acceptable to take a couple days, maybe, you know? And it's not even that much time. No. I mean, like, the paternity leave, you're looking at a couple of days. You're looking at a couple of days.

Basically, like, as long as I imagine someone with the financial resources of a professional athlete's partner is able to be in the hospital is about how long you get off, you know? That's wild. You know, and they have other help, presumably. I think that, you know, as, as folks who are in a position of financial privilege, they are better able to weather that, but I, like, I don't have any children, but I know plenty of people who have been immediately postpartum, and boy, would that not be enough as far as I was concerned in that moment, like to get home with a brand new baby and then your husband has to

sometimes go, sometimes they're not even home. They're like, not that they're not home on leave. They're not home in the city you're in, you know, they have to go back out on the road. Like, wow. that's wild. Yeah. So I'm not crying for baseball players here. They have it good in any number of ways. And Catele-Marté is making $14 million.

He's worth more than that, but that's still a lot of money. And he gets plenty of time to himself later in the year. But, yeah, it is a odd thing that it becomes such an issue if you essentially take a day off at the wrong time or just a couple days off. And suddenly it's like public reports and unrest in the clubhouse and have to issue a public apology for something that in basically any line of work, you'd just be like, yeah, I'm going to take a couple days. And that would be like, okay, sure, you're entitled to a few weeks or whatever, whatever you want. So that is well within bounds. No one would have anything negative to say about that, probably, unless, you know, I don't know. I guess people could still be upset if you're, like, doing a group project or something and you disappear on the day it's due or whatever, right?

Like, people could still be upset about that. But, yeah, this is just professional athletes. They're different than we are. It is a weird and wonderful lifestyle in a lot of ways, but also one where you're just constantly under the microscope and there is no letting up. The only way that you get a day off is, like, if you suck so bad that they bench you basically other than that you're just you're going to be working every day yeah yeah it's a profoundly strange occupation and i you know i think these guys go into it eyes wide open it obviously comes with tremendous benefits both in terms of like

getting to do a thing you love in terms of making a bunch of money and um you do get an off season even though you know guys to your point are expected to like stay in shape and often have developmental goals that they have to reach while they're not in season, but it's a wonderful job. And also, it is profoundly strange. It is just profoundly strange. And I do think that having an appreciation for that, it doesn't mean that you have to, like, excuse a guy going AWOL or anything. And the people who are complaining in this instance were people within his own clubhouse. These are other people who have to adhere to these same professional standards. But But I do think that, like, as outsiders to a clubhouse, it is a useful thing to, like, keep in mind as we're trying to understand, like, how do you get to a place where something like that happens?

And the strangeness of it, I think, is useful to that. Yeah. Yeah. If we had to, we should probably rank just the strangest things about being a professional baseball player or a big leaguer just in terms of. Family at work. Family at work. with a with a with a with a bullet i don't know i don't oh i know because as where's that gets sometimes as as out as the drake la roche situation is people have you know that's not bring a kid to work

day or whatever that's not even what i mean that's not even what i mean okay you you are you're you're a big leader congratulations ben let's pretend for a second you're um you're a starting picture. You're, okay, you're Nolan McLean on the, on the Mets, right? And you're, you're getting called up and you're going to make your big league debut. And you are having the one of the most stressful days of your life, exciting, thrilling, per the broadcast, got to eat Wagu steak, like several times in a 24-hour period, but he had weird poops, but that's none of my business. Wonderful, but also incredibly stressful, incredibly stressful. And then, Your mom is there.

And not only is your mom there, not only is your dad there, who your mom says on television isn't a very emotional guy. There is a reporter up in the stands talking to them while they are watching you do your most stressful day. Bizarre. Absolutely not. The idea of my mom observing me on the day of the trade deadline fills me with horror. I need to be able to be the weirdest gremlin alive. I cannot be held accountable for the things I say on deadline day. I am so grateful that no one is watching me reacting to, no, no, the things I, I appreciate and I'm grateful to work with every single one of my coworkers. I, and also like on those high stress days, like you, you just, you say things to the computer and you're like, no one can hear it.

So it didn't happen. It's like it didn't happen. It's like it didn't happen. No, what if your mom was in the corner and someone would. is asking you about how you were doing? No, absolutely not. Family members at work. Easily the weirdest thing they have to deal with.

Getting booed and cheered publicly for your performance. Very strange, too. Very odd. Yeah, I know there's a... Which is part of why your mom being there is so weird. Yes, I know there's a stereotype, which is probably about as accurate as most generational stereotypes, which is to say, not very about Gen Z and Gen Alpha and just how reliant they are on parents, right?

and kind of integrating parents into schooling and work. And maybe it's not coming from them so much as it's coming from the parents and the helicopter parenting and all of that, right? I don't know how accurate all of this is. But the idea, basically, that parents are doing things for kids or kids are expecting parents to do things for them. I feel like they said that about us, too, though. I feel like they said that about millennials. When it comes to, like, living at home, absolutely, yes. And, you know, like, probably.

bleak because it's all sort of on a sliding scale and each generation makes the same complaints about the previous generation, which doesn't always invalidate them. Maybe there is actual progression or whatever changes from one generation to another. But yeah, it's always the youngs are soft and they are self-reliant and we had it harder back in our day, right? And yeah, they definitely said that about living at home and also just about being monitored at all times as opposed to just roaming free about the neighborhood, you know, just the idyllic sandlot existence, just biking about, unmonitored, parents never knowing where you were, what you were doing, the kind of 80s, E.T. Stranger Things sort of existence, right? So, yeah, what with all the stranger danger

and the fears about kidnapping and such, that was kind of curtailed. They were afraid of that clown. Well, yeah, with good reason. I think they were afraid of that clown. Yeah. But, But anyway, I'm just saying maybe it'll seem less strange eventually to some generation to have your parents be at this big moment and weighing in on this big moment. But it definitely does seem daunting to me. I didn't even really want my mom to show up when I was playing as a kid in grade school in games. I mean, she did sometimes. But, you know, on some level, I guess I appreciated that she wanted to.

Sure. Still, like, she had to sort of observe surreptitiously because I would get self-conscious. Like, if my mom's standing there, you know, which probably one of the many reasons, I'm not cut out to be a professional athlete. Like, they probably just tune this stuff out and, you know, maybe not so much on the day of their Big League debut. But generally, they've had their parents in the stands for decades by that point. Right. They've been following them and taking them to travel ball and whatever else, right? So they're used to it, but it certainly sounds strange to us.

Yeah, I think that that would be weird. I think that the clubhouse sounds like a place of great camaraderie and also just like a bunch of social rules that I would find very strange having to observe at work. And our presence, not you and I specifically, but like the media's presence in that space, you know, perhaps chief among them, right? Everyone knowing your job performance to just an incredible degree with Stackast and everything, just knowing everything about what you're doing, knowing exactly how much money you make. Right. Maybe the weirdest part is just kind of not controlling your own destiny in terms of where you work. Fair enough. If you're drafted, okay, well, I guess that's where I'm going to go now for however many years.

Like, your fate is just not in your hands, and then you can just be traded at any time, at least for. many years and so at any moment you might be uprooted that is that's probably the weirdest part like not even just being banished from your job but to an entirely different city perhaps even a different country yeah people knowing about injuries i would find very very strange and like you know you think about the oh my elbow oh my knee oh my shoulder no sindergarde had hand foot and mouth disease i know that about him that's weird he and i've never met about nois and to cards, some of which I'd rather not know. I'd rather not know.

Or like, you know, the various, let's say, lower half injuries that Mitch Hanigar and Jordan his career. Weird for me to know that about him. Don't know that man. We don't exchange cards at the holidays. Like, it's just, it's a bizarre thing. You have to do your job in the presence so much of the time these days, not only of your parents, but also potentially a DJ, you know?

What's up with that? This is me reviving my DJ ramp. What's with all the DJs? Why are there so many? Why are they everywhere? Why? Why, when I go to Diamondbacks game, do I have to deal with a different DJ? And, you know, it's not always the same one.

And I don't, I want the DJs if they're listening to know. It's not that I take issue with any one of your individual performances relative to each other. Your entire profession collectively. Right. Like, why are you there? Why? There's an organist. Why am I listening? I feel bad because the only one of them

whose name I'm able to remember is DJ Rockweiler. And I don't think that DJ Rockweiler is any better or worse than any of the other DJs. This is the point I'm making. It's not, it's just that his name is DJ Rockweiler, Ben, like Rockweiler. Like Rockweiler, but Rock

except that he's a DJ. He's not playing rock music. He's playing he's playing music with a house beat over it and then expecting me to be happy about it. No. Okay, right in and let us know any overlooked aspects of being a baseball player that you think are strange. I'm sorry to the DJs who listen to our shows. It doesn't sound like you're that sorry.

I'm not because I'm right, but I don't know, I do feel, I always feel, I feel bad when I make someone feel bad, even if I'm right. Yeah, I am. They should feel bad for their choices in life that. led them to being DJs is what you're suggesting, but you don't necessarily want them to suffer for that. Right. I mean, I guess on some level I do because I'd prefer their unemployment to having to listen to them. So on that level, I am being profoundly unsympathetic to their play. Well, here, let me, let me salvage my own reputation here. I would just say that I know that the greater Phoenix metro area is home to so many places where DJs can DJ.

And their DJing is welcome. Their DJing is celebrated. Their DJing is the reason you go to that place as one of the people who goes there. And so I would simply hope that your employment prospects can shift to one of those places. Right. And not Chase Field. Because DJs have a constituency. They are valued by some.

some subsection of the populace that is looking for a DJ. 100%. So they should gravitate towards their audience. Go find them. Go find those people. They love you so much, you know, and they want to be there and say. They want you to drop the beat. Right.

They want you to drop the beat. In fact, they are right at this moment aching for the beat. They are waiting. They depend on you to drop the beat. Right. Because otherwise, they can't dance. Right. They need you.

to dance. I don't need you to watch baseball. In fact, you are an impediment to my ability to do so. So, you know, go find your people. It's not me. Here's another impediment to our ability to watch baseball, the zombie runner, which often curtails contests that I am quite enjoying. And there was one on Tuesday. I go back and forth on what I think is the worst sin, the worst evil visited on us by the zombie runner, the worst way for a game to end because of the zombie runner. But this This was up there. So we had a... America's lost again.

Well, that wasn't the one that I was thinking of. But we had a pitcher's duel between two of the Piss Pitchers in baseball and two of the best teams in baseball. We had Terek Scouble versus Hunter Brown, Tigers versus Astros. And they delivered. They weren't at their best, exactly, at their most dominant. But they put up zeros for several innings each. and the relievers who followed them put up zeros after that, and the game was scoreless through regulation, through nine innings.

So great, this is exactly as ordered. And, you know, Scoobel, he almost allowed a run. There was a runner thrown out at home to preserve the scoreless game. And Brown, I think there was a lead-off triple that he worked around and he stranded that guy. But great, that makes it even more exciting. that they were kind of, you know, on the tightrope wire, that they were close to allowing runs, and then they escaped those jams, and they were bailed out.

And then we get to the 10th, and the zombie runner just Kool-Aid manse through the wall and says, hey, you're enjoying this scoreless pitcher's duel between two first-place teams in which neither team has managed to scratch out or run and push one across? Well, what if we just suddenly started the inning with a runner on second base for no reason? What if we did that?

Then maybe we could just give somebody a run without them having really earned it. And so it ends up being a one-nothing game. Tigers 1, Astros 0, works out for Meg and Meg's Mariners. But nonetheless... I mean, yeah, not they could take advantage of it, because I can't go for another runner is going. But this is what...

happens. Caleb Oort comes in pitching for Houston, and he's not good. There was a cloud above him, an Oort cloud. That's an astronomy joke. But he comes in, bottom of the 10th. Wenzel Perez starts on second base for the Tigers. He is the zombie runner. Andy Abagnas flies out. Then there was an intentional walk to Dylan Dingler. Javi Baez struck out swinging. Dingler advanced a second on defensive indifference. Then there was another walk, and then the bases were loaded, and Oort walked in a run. A run was driven in by a walk. A run was plated. There was an RBBI, as one of our listeners suggested, a run base unballed in, I don't know. Anyway, that's how this ends.

Now, it's not the worst possible ending, because I think the worst possible would be a 1-0 game where it's an exciting pitcher's duel, and then the run scores through no fault of the pitcher. That's the worst when there's just runner on second who gets moved over to third on and out, and then there's just a sack fly or something. Or, you know, like the pitcher does nothing but get outs, but the run scores anyway. And there have been several of those games, many of those games over the years that we have. have been played by the zombie runner. I think we ran a Stap Blast on that at some point and got the tally. So this isn't quite that bad because at least it was partly due to Caleb Orte's poor pitching and or the tiger's selectivity and drawing those walks.

So it wasn't like a no-fault loss, but still, they had both held the line through these heroic defensive efforts through nine innings. Yeah. And then the tie is broken and it's all spoiled because the runner starts in extra innings. Yeah. This is, I think, the worst case scenario for me, aside from the, it's a Sackfly or run scores on an out scenario. The other one that I hate is when it's a low-scoring pitcher's duel through nine. And then suddenly, like, the game is completely broken open.

At least this was one-nothing, which I guess makes it more palatable or I don't know. maybe it makes it worse in some ways. But sometimes you have like the scoreless game or it's one to one or something. And then the final score is like eight to six or so, you know, because it's just like both teams exploded with the zombie runner in the tent. And it just distorts the picture of what that game was like to watch. Right. But this is up there, I think, when it comes to just, I don't, I want you to have to earn it.

When you have both done such a good job of preventing runs to that. point, you really should have to legitimately earn one to win. So I agree with that, right? I think that you should have to, I'm not here to say that the zombie runner is good. The zombie runner is bad. Very, very bad, very bad. Don't care for it at all. Having said that and meaning it with such conviction, I was less bothered by this one.

Now, is some of that the result of the game going in a way that I, found useful to me personally I'd be I'd be lying if I didn't if I said it didn't matter right of course of course that was part of my calculus but I I also think that there is something so dramatic about the walk-off walk that you are able to forget some of the the sizzle being taken out by there being a guy on second base already so that that would be maybe all would say and like or didn't have it or didn't have it and so some of you you could you could say and you wouldn't be wrong that you know the guy starting on second certainly helped the cause of the tigers obviously it did but i felt like the the dramatic tension of is he going to be able to

find the zone is havi or by is going to be able to lay off and that was no you know like that part of it was very thrilling and I think infused the whole proceeding with more tension. And so I take the broader point and I would have loved for them to have just been like, hey, we're going to, you know, play baseball like we always have and like most people find satisfying. But I was, I was admittedly a little less bothered by this one than I typically find myself feeling when the zombie runner comes out and we're doing zombie runner type business. So I would just say that, you know, and your mileage on that may vary. So that'd be fine if it did.

Okay. Yeah. Is there even dramatic tension when the question is, will Javi Baez lay off? Well, earlier in this season, sometimes he was. There was a time when he was, yeah, it's true. Sometimes he, sometimes he was. And this, it's been less true as the season has gone on, but it hasn't been, like, You know, it's happened some.

So, there you go. Anyway, it was Glaber Torres who drew the fateful walk to end it. But, yeah, it's just a letdown for me to have that happen anyway. It's a fair complaint to register, to be clear. Like, I don't disagree with the broader argument, which is this is an abomination that we should get rid of, you know. We are aligned in that respect. But this one did kind of, you know, you. You make a bland dish, but then you put chili crisp on it.

And it's like, I do like that chili crisp. It makes it, you know, spicy. It imbues it with something more than just the blandness. So there you go. All right. Last bit of business, I have a new baseball show to tell you about. Okay, tell me. Yeah.

And a somewhat surprising one, Alien Earth is a baseball show. Okay. Yeah. I am so excited because I was going to ask you about it. Alien Earth, which I have not started. Is it too scary for me, Ben? Maybe. How?

How? How? Okay. Okay. Sorry. I want to hear about how it's a baseball show. But first, we have to set a baseline that is about me selfishly. So, okay, I love the alien movies.

Ripley, feminist icon, very important to my development as like a human being in a way that we don't need to think about too hard. But I was able to deal with Prometheus, which has. has some gnarly, has some gnarly bits. And so does the original alien and aliens, there's something about practical effects that I have an easier time with, oddly, even though they, it's like they are more real, but they're not. I don't know. I can deal with the practical effects stuff a little bit easier than like a lot of CGI'd horror, like the gore, like the super gore. But then my sister, who knows me very well, was like, Covenant is not

going to be for you. And I did not watch it. And my understanding was that that was quite arresting in terms of the violence. So, like, on a scale of the original two movies to Prometheus to Covenant, where does it fall in the gore continuum? I think if you could make it through the original, you could make it through this. Okay. It's similar. It's very much modeled on the original alien, sort of the same.

So you got bursting out of things bursting out of various organic material. There's plenty of body horror. There's not just one species of alien. There are multiple species of alien, and they're all gross in their own special way. Okay. I'm going to watch the pilot. Yeah, it's a good show. I'm enjoying it.

People seem to be really liking it. Yeah, and I have a pretty high tolerance for gore. Gore doesn't bother me, but I don't have the highest tolerance for horror necessarily. Okay. I'm making it through this. I'm enjoying it. So, yeah, I would recommend it. I've seen three episodes.

there have been three episodes that have aired. This is on FX, Hulu, et cetera. Anyway, it is very much a baseball show, not just by the effectively wild definition. I guess it's not quite a Gilded Age-level baseball show in that there's no actual baseball in real-time being played, but there's a pretty prominent part for baseball in, well, each of the first two episodes, certainly.

The third episode, I would say, qualifies as a baseball episode, barely based on just one line of dialogue where someone likens something to a ball that got hit over the fence into the neighbor's yard and says, I'm the neighbor, so the ship belongs to me now. That's clearly an allusion to baseball, right? That's sort of a sandlot situation. But that would be a borderline case if that were Alien Earth's sole claim to being a baseball show. But the first two episodes leave no doubt because one of the prominent characters, is a big baseball fan.

Now, this is set in the year 21-20. So good news. Baseball is still around. And not just baseball, but baseball on the radio. I mean, maybe he's listening to an app. I don't know. It's kind of that retro-futuristic aesthetic of the original alien where everything is blocky and chunky and analog-like, which I just wrote about for the ringer.

So it's got that same sort of design. but this guy's walking around the city listening to a baseball broadcast in real time. So that's in the first episode, I think maybe even the scene where we're introduced to him. So it's sort of a foundational aspect of his character. He's a baseball fan. Then in the second episode, these aren't important spoilers. It's just the baseball stuff. Yeah.

So in the second episode, he finds himself in a rich person's apartment, and it turns out that this rich person has, the ball that was hit by Reggie Jackson, the third home run he hit in the 1977 World Series. And in fact, the episode title is Mr. October, and it's because of Reggie. So he just happens to see this ball. And of course, because he's a big baseball fan, he knows the significance of this. And you even see a clip of that baseball broadcast and the home run being hit and the call and all of it. So very much a baseball scene. Now, I appreciate this, as always, and, you know, it bolsters my case that baseball is really

overrepresented in fiction, in popular media, just relative to its cultural footprint at this stage. And I don't know that Noah Hawley, who is the creator, showrunner, writer, sometimes director of this series, is a notable baseball fan, perhaps he is, but I don't know him to be a big baseball fan. But he's of the demographic that you'd think he might be baseball curious and also kind of came of age. You know, he's a 58-year-old white guy. Like, part of my theory is that we still see so much baseball in movies and TV because it's kind of an echo of how prominent baseball was 30 plus years ago, you know, late 80s, early 90s when there was a rash of baseball movies. And so if you kind of came up and were into movies, it's just a lot of baseball. And so it becomes part of the cultural fabric. And, you know, it just still has a romance and significance to it.

Harkens back to a pastoral past that perhaps never quite existed the way that we romanticize it. But, you know, there's just, you can sort of signify something when you put baseball in that does not necessarily get signified by football. Maybe even though football is far more popular. So what stands out to me, though, and it's, I don't know if it rises to the level of a peave, but it's something that is noteworthy, I think, is that in future fiction, in sci-fi, you often get allusions to contemporary culture that are kind of anachronistic, if you really think about it. Like, would this guy in 2120 be such a big baseball fan that he would be aware of the Reggie Jackson home run and would instantly be able to, like, place the, assess the significance of this artifact? Because, you know, that's 140-something years ago at this point in 2120. Like, that's a lot to expect him to know. And granted, they had established that he was a baseball fan in the previous episode.

So it's a little less far-fetched that he would just happen to know this, but still 143 years. I mean, think about 143 years ago to us today, how aware are people of the goings-on in 1882 in baseball, right? It's, I guess people still talk about Old Haas Radborn. And, I mean, we talked about Jake Seymour, who was one of the Seymour's, the last pitching Seymour on our very last episode. He pitched in 1882 and 1882 only, so I guess it comes up, but I wouldn't necessarily have the reverence for something or be able to just place the significance of something. You know, I'm not Richard Hirschberger. I have a healthy knowledge and respect for baseball's past and distant past, but even so, and, you know, we're outliers even when it comes to baseball awareness. So you wouldn't think that it would just be something that people were that familiar with.

And yet we constantly get allusions to 20th century culture in depictions of the far future. For obvious reasons, I guess, because we are 20th or 21st century people watching these things. Sure. And so these references, if you just constantly had the characters sprinkle in references to things that supposedly happens hundreds of years after now, then we would not know what they were talking about. And it would be like watching something where people are constantly doing inside jokes and you feel excluded. But that's what it would be like, probably, because if you listen to people in conversation now, we're largely referring to things that are recent or that happened in our lifetime. Yeah. Not things that predated.

And, you know, I'm kind of an old head and I'm interested in culture that predated me. But even so, within limits, you know. Yeah. I did the whole Ella Black series on the Gilded Age and everything. And, hey, we watched the Gilded Age. I mean, that started in like 1882, 83 or whatever. So we have some passing familiarity with that period in history. But nonetheless, I think these shows sci-fi over-indexes on culture that is familiar to us, the people who are watching when it airs for obvious reasons.

And yet sometimes almost breaks the immersion for me. Because it's like, would these people really be talking about this? How likely is that? I think that you raise a good point, although I will offer two potential ways of soothing your disbelief. The first is maybe this just suggests the ongoing vitality of Sabre as an organization, that it is pulling forward. And I sound like I'm doing a joke, but like we do have a – it is a sport that puts so much emphasis on its historical tradition, right? and maintaining that and uncovering new aspects of it and preserving the ones that we already have. And so it isn't completely unbelievable to me that that would be a persistent theme

even into the far future, a far future dominated by like not only soulless, but like Machiavellian and quite cruel corporate interests, right? That seems reasonable to me. I also think that I wouldn't be surprised if the further into the film, like the TV and film era that you get, the better the preservation of those moments is going to be because you can actually see them in a way that is like athletic, right? It's not just stills. It's not just necessarily like grainy black and white footage, but you're going to be able to like see the guys doing the thing in a way that is identifiable.

And because the athleticism of pro baseball players is just getting better and better all the time, I suspect that like the gap between what we perceive as the modern game now and what we come to view as the modern game 100 years from now, it's not like there won't be a gap, but it'll be smaller than at least from a pure athleticism perspective than it was, you know, us back to. you know babe ruth or whatever um and so that that suggests to me that there might be a greater ability to like kind of get your arms around it and have it feel familiar and worth talking about and impressive because it is like you know no offense to early baseball but it's like you look at the guys now and you look at the guys then and like the the you know step forward for from a conditioning perspective

and athleticism perspective is just so obvious, right? You think about average fastball velocity now, et cetera. So I do think that you're absolutely right because the true audience for those moments isn't people in the future, it's people right now. And so you want to ground it in like sports and reference that still means something, you know,

especially when you're doing sci-fi for a more mainstream audience than people who are really into like genre fiction. or whatever because like when you're doing genre fiction we've talked about this like the most intimidating notion to me about writing genre fiction is like having to make up nouns that sound real right like all the flops like oh my god the idea of having a construct a believable florp can't even imagine it right yeah you'd be bad at the techno babble the techno bubble the techno bubba I think you found the episode title I just want to be clear like Again, it's not a bad name, and I think it's a fine nickname, and I can totally imagine it being affectionate. There are all kinds of folks who have Bubba's a nickname. It just, to me, it feels like a baby's like, oh, hey, Bubba, you know, like you'd say it's like a baby in a crib being like, oh, Bubba, you know, maybe it's the way I say Bubba. Maybe that's the, this is probably a Meg problem. I want to own that right up front. But, no, you make an excellent point, not necessarily

about Bubba, but about the visuals, because. Because the 20th century stuff is the earliest preserved on film. And so that might be more of a tangible connection to that era. You can see it at game speed. Yeah. And could create some curiosity and fascination because that's the earliest preserved history that you have footage of. So we can't watch baseball from 1882. And so that just makes it seem separate and different and inaccessible.

It's not even like black. and white with a weird frame rate, we just can't see it. And you have to imagine it in your mind's eye. Whereas, yeah, if you're in the year 2120 and you're watching something from 1977, at least it's right there on film, it's real life, it's in color. So, yes, it is conceivable to me that that would make it seem more real and would make that just help preserve the memory and awareness of that within reason. But this is a consistent thing like in Star Trek, for instance.

So you have, you know, like Captain Picard is into the Dixon Hill, fictional noir, you know, sort of pulp stories, right? The detective stories. And then Tom Paris on Voyager. That's right, yeah. Captain Proton, you know, kind of the like early sci-fi sort of play. on that kind of stuff. And then, and of course, Benjamin Cisco on Deep Space 9 is a big baseball fan, which is delightful. And Deep Space 9 is set in, I think, the 24th century.

So, again, maybe, you know, it strains belief. But what I appreciate about that is that they did at least invent a fake baseball player, Buck Bokai. And so they have this fictional history of Buck Bukai who was like a 21st century player. He's still pretty close to our time, but they at least extended it in kind of a future blast way. Like he plays for the London Kings and, you know, like they're projecting some growth in the game. And he debuted, I think, canonically in baseball in 2015, which is in the past for us now, but was in the future for Deep Space Nine viewers who were watching Deep Space Nine when it was airing. And so there's this whole history of Buckbukai, which I appreciate that they did that, at least. And, like, he lived a long time.

And I guess in Star Trek, there's this fascination because there's the world war and there's all the upheaval from that. And maybe there's nostalgia for, like, the 20th century, though there were plenty of world wars going on then and just all sorts of terrible stuff. But also, I don't know, it was like, and it was before first contact. So maybe you look back fondly on this era. when, like, humanity was, was still alone in the universe as far as it knew for sure. So I can see reasons why in universe it might make sense. But the real reason is kind of an out-of-universe reason, which is that it just makes it more relatable to us if you have, you know, a Flash Gordon-esque Captain Proton guy who, you know,

someone on Voyager is obsessed with. And as I was saying, like, if you live in a world a world with florps, you know, or, or warp drive or you know whatever and you're trying to get that series to be interesting and palatable to people who might like have an appreciation for the alien movies but aren't necessarily hardcore sci-fi fans right like those movies were popular beyond just the audience for genre fiction or whatever i think having a recognizable like cultural touchstone helps to like smooth the way for those people. You know, it doesn't end up being like flops all the way down.

It humanizes it. It grounds it. Yeah. Right. So I think that that is also part of why there's a gravitation toward those kinds of like cultural touchstones that is as much about like letting the audience know like, hey, it's okay. You don't have to, you don't have to remember the date of first contact to enjoy this thing,

right? Or whatever, you know. And like, I like science fiction. And I'm not trying to, you know, give sci-fi a hard time but um sometimes you'll watch there's like you know there's mainstream sci-fi and then there's whatever they had on it two in the morning on the sci-fi channel and there's a gap between those in terms of the audience and bridging that gap i imagine is important to like fx but i liked i saw i saw there's a quote from from noah holly about how he didn't like

like the apple storeification of the more recent um i'm i was like okay this is a good these are steady hands to have this franchise interested to you because I didn't like that either. It's like, why does it look so nice? Yes, right. The Prometheus covenant. They're prequels and it's like, why is the technology so advanced? Better. Yeah.

It kind of makes sense if you're in Star Trek and it's the mirror universe or it's the alternate timeline or parallel or it's the far future in discovery or something. But in alien canonically, it was confusing. But I do appreciate the effort to sort of shake things. up because I just wrote about how like all these franchises that originated in the late 70s, early 80s, Star Wars, Alien, Blade Runner, etc., they're all kind of frozen in time with the technology that at the time seems sort of futuristic, but now it's like, wait, how did we end up in this world where they have synthetics and cyborgs and yet also like CRT screens and like camcorders and just, you know, stuff that seems low tech comparatively and, you know, it's a different universe. It's fine, maybe, but, you know, it's like you're pressured to kind of stay within the archetype of those classics. Right. If you're in that same range of the timeline, the fictional timeline. So there are pluses and negatives to that.

Anyway, baseball does kind of give you something to hold on to and make it more recognizable and more relatable. And I'm always here for it. I'm in favor of it. Bring on the baseball shows. So we've got another good one, big baseball show. Alien Earth, check it out. Okay. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash Effectively Wild and signing up to pledge some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going. Help us stay ad free and get yourself access to some perks.

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