Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2389: Max Effort

Episode Date: October 18, 2025

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about ALCS Game 4 and NLCS Game 3, with an emphasis on Max Scherzer’s must-win mentality and why his hyped-up mound and start-day demeanor stops just short of scanning as too intense, the Dodgers’ likeability (or lack thereof), and repetitive promos. Then (as Meg sporadically exclaims about the beginning […]

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It's effectively wild Like Nolan Ryan was Sometimes Hello and welcome to Episode 2389 of Effectively Wild A Baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters.

I am Ben Lindberg of the Ringer joined by Meg Rally of Fangraphs. Hello, Mick. Hi. Speaking to Meg, in the moment, before, a consequential game between the Mariners and Blue Jays, depending on how things go. You might even get live gameplay just as we did. You're going to get live gameplay.

You're going to get live gameplay. And it's going to be completely rational. It's going to be sober. It's going to be, I mean, both in terms of its potential influences and also its tone, I might be laying out a multi-step plan to find and kill Humpty. I just, I'm, look. Public sentiment has really turned on Humphy. We talked about this yesterday, but suddenly, Mariner's fans are demanding ritual sacrifices of Humphi.

He was a hero just a few days ago. No, look, he is a hero. This isn't Humpty's fault. Sometimes the gods demand a sacrifice of us. It's not a sacrifice if you hate Humpty. It's only a sacrifice if you love Humpty. If you have a Humpty plushy that was sent to you. you as a kind, caring gift from a friend. And yet, here you are saying, look, I...

Does it have to be the actual Humpy? Couldn't you just maybe burn your... I'm not suggesting we killed a person inside of Humpy. Oh, wow. You're breaking the fourth wall here. There's a person inside Humpy. I thought we were pretending that this was an actual salmon sort of being, but you could... No, he'd be able to swim if he was an actual salmon. That's true. You probably wouldn't need the life preserver or the floaties, but... Probably not. You could just burn your humpy plushy in effigy, maybe.

No, that was a gift. Oh, okay, then. Come on. Well, it does seem as if suddenly sentiment has turned in the direction of we need to do something to change the trajectory of this series. And that something is ritually sacrificing our beloved mascot. I mean, the other option would be seeing if Brian Wu can pitch. But, like, that appears to not be an option on offer. And so, yeah, I don't know, this may become clear after we record, but I am kind of confused by the status of Wu in the series because when he was restored to the roster after having missed the division series, I assumed that he would be starting a game because why else would you have him on the roster or what would you want him to do?

And then Miller started game one. And of course, that worked out quite well for the bearers. So that's okay, because that would have been the obvious time. to slot woo-in if he could go. And so the fact that he couldn't, that he didn't draw that assignment suggested, I suppose, that he was not up to starting. But if he's not up to starting because of the peck injury or the recovery from the peck injury, then can he pitch it all?

Like, is it less stressful to pitch in relief? Or is he's just still recovering or what? Right. I, I, so, okay, so, okay, so my sense, my guess, my guess, is that, that tonight, tonight being Friday, we're recording this before the game starts. The game starts in, what, like, 45 minutes, a little more. Bryce Miller is starting this game. Yeah. And I could imagine a scenario where Brian Wu pitches part of it. You know, I think the original plan, before the 15 inning game kind of threw the beginning of the CS into chaos from a pitching plan perspective, I think that the original plan was for for Bryce Miller on more regular rest and Brian Wu to piggyback the first game or perhaps the second game.

But then everyone threw. Everyone had to throw. Louis Cashew had to throw and Logan Gilbert had to throw and everything is like a bonanza. And so I imagine that we will see, we will see Brian Wu tonight assuming things are going. Okay. I also think that like the mariners need to explore their legal options because I feel like this rule that like only the the Blue Jays can really mount an offense after the third inning. That feels like it's working against them. You know. I know that the courts are on skeleton crew because of the shutdown, but surely this merits some sort of immediate injunction. Yeah. Or maybe it could be a class action and the Brewers' bats could get on that. get in on that also? No, I don't think you want that vibe

coming into your vibe. They got to sort out their own vibe. They have their own sacrifices to make their own gods to appease. Bernie Brewer, you're next. Yeah, I think it's more cheese-based is my sense. Or maybe the barrel man has to go.

You think the barrel man and Bernie Brewer hang? Like, again, I'm mostly talking about the people inside the costumes. Anyway, the reality is that, you know, their project is to win two more games. that was their project on Wednesday. Yeah. Now it's a little bit more urgent.

There's a little more urgency, yes. Of a project. But the project remains the same. I don't feel great. And I'm trying to decide how much of that is rational versus not. I know that I feel better than a Brewer's fan does right now. And that's quite rational as these things go. I do want to highlight for a moment.

But boy, Jacob Mizorowski, what a performance yesterday. You know, I enjoy watching him so much. I appreciate that, like, you know, there was this huge hype and then there's the all-star game controversy and then he faded in a way that rookies can, particularly when they throw a million miles an hour. Yeah, and there were some physical stuff. And there was also just a lot of keeping him on very strict limits and, you know, innings counts and just not wanting to use him seemingly.

And so I don't know whether that was a product of him not being 100% or whether him not being 100% was partly a product of the way that his usage was restricted because I'm always suspicious of do we actually know anything when it comes to protecting pitchers? And the younger you are, the more accepting I am of, yes, let's be careful and err on the side of caution, especially if you throw a million miles an hour. but it did get to a point where I'm thinking like, you know, use him, right? Use him or lose him or you're worried that if you do use him, you will lose him, but now you're losing him essentially by not using him.

But I guess the argument would be while we're preserving him for October so that he could do what he is doing right now. Right. And that has gone very well. I also, we've maybe talked about this with respect to the Miz in particular. But just in general, you know, I know that there are a lot of like, emotional faces that pitchers in particular display as they are exiting the mount and they are excited they are proud they are relieved sometimes but a lot of the the the base facial expression for many of these guys is like one of aggression one of anger and that's fine like there's a place

for the like let's go that place is on the mound when maxers her is pitching I enjoy that And I want to say, I called the potential for that shit. I called the potential for that shit yesterday. I doubted him. And I was like, that's dangerous. That's dangerous. And you're not even, I don't even know how like podcast hosts, co-host of fans fits into the realm of magic. Again, the rules there seem very arbitrary.

It's almost like it's not real. But one thing I enjoy about Mizorowski, and this isn't true of him. every time he exits the mound. But very often when he exits the mound and something has gone well for him and inning has gone the way he wants, he has just like this goofy, happy face. Yeah. And I just appreciate there being, you know, a range in the, in the departing mound face, you know, because a lot of them are either dower or, rar. Yeah, there's lots of stalking off the mound. Yeah. The Miz is skipping. He's exuberant. Gipping, yeah, he is exuberant and he, you know, he is so fresh-faced.

And so that's part of it, too, is that he just, he reads young because he is young and he is smiley. I just enjoy that. If only he could hit, you know, that's been. Yeah, I've talked about just how reliant teams have been, especially the Dodgers, even the Brewers and some others on starters pitching in relief. And maybe it's just the distinction between starter and release. lever has just completely broken down. So Mizrowski, for instance, has not started a game in these playoffs, but he's been the bulk guy, and effectively that is the same.

I mean, it's a different sequence. He doesn't get a game started, but he's the guy who's pitching more innings, and it's odd in retrospect, given how well, he's pitched, you'd think, well, why, why not just start the guy, just to slot him into the rotation? Clearly, he's one of the best pitchers you have, but I guess there are reasons. are potential advantages to using an opener, which did not manifest themselves in game three with Ashby, but still on paper, there's something to that idea. And who knows, maybe him coming out of the bullpen, different mentality, different pressure, different prep. I don't know.

Clearly, it has suited him. But the brothers are using, you know, between him and Patrick, they're using a couple of their best pitchers in relief. And maybe I'm just making too much of these almost arbitrary distinctions now between the categories of pitcher. I think part of it also is that relievers just are not used on back-to-back days and consecutive games and days the way that they were even just a few years ago, really. And so if your actual relievers just cannot be used as much in a short series, then you're almost by default going to have to press some starters into service. And then And you also have some teams, namely the Dodgers, who just had a surplus of starting pitchers. And so they lent themselves to that, plus the weak bullpen combination.

So there are a number of reasons why that's happened. But, yeah, you see the Brewers, it's just every day, who's starting? I don't know. We'll find out when the game begins, basically. But then they bring in this completely unhittable guy with all the wipeout pitches just after the opener. And you're like, oh, I see. Well, this could have been their ace level. starter who was just starting but no everything is more complicated now i feel like the openers have

not really worked even when they have won the game i've sometimes wondered if they're really being deployed to optimal effect i mean they haven't won any games in this round i'm aware of that fact but you know they've had to sort of piece it together um this whole playoffs and so i i don't know i've just been i've just been wondering but this is a place where where, not the opener piece of it, but the specific deployment of Mizorowski, where I'm willing to grant that, like, we just have imperfect knowledge of the way that they've decided is the best to set him up for success. And, you know, whatever I might think of the particular execution of the openers, like his results, Mizorowski's results have been quite good. And so if this is

the way to sort of buoy him or what have you, then I, okay. Again, like the biggest issue that they have is they just have not been able to hit. Yeah, but Brewer's pitching has been fine. They've held the Dodgers to 10 runs in three games. In three games. You'd absolutely sign up for that coming into this series. Yes. And you'd expect that, okay, if we actually do that, we will have won at least one of those games you would hope.

And so Brewer's pitching has delivered. Dodgers pitching has been better, of course. sung the praises of Blake Snell and Yamamoto, and Glassnow wasn't quite as good, but was solid, but you would think that Brewers pitching has held up its end of the bargain, and it's the Brewers' bets that have just disappeared in combination with the Dodgers dealing, and that's always a difficult thing to apportion the credit or blame there, and I've been thinking about that in the AL series, too, in the past couple games, as the Mariners have gone quiet, was Max Scherzer really great, or was there a problem with the Mariners approach, which was what

Joe Sheehan suggested in his newsletter, that they should have been really beating up on some pitches, and they just weren't, and he was getting tons of whiffs on curveballs, which is not something that he had been doing prior to that, and so it seemed like maybe their approach was backward, but then maybe that's a testament to Max, just managing to dial it up a little bit, and be his vintage self. So it's always hard for me to say that, yeah, that was purely just the pitching being good because it's so hard to hit.

And so much of it is just reactive that I'm less inclined to say that it was a problem of approach because, yes, there can be an approach, of course. The Blue Jays have been aggressive and they've been open about that. Yeah, you give us something to hit. The first few pitches, we're going to swing. And you can say, let's eliminate certain pitches and let's look to feast on fastballs or, you know, whatever it is.

But then it's hard. Like those best laid plans can go awry if the pitcher just does well. It just like pitches well and confuses you and makes some pitches look like other pitches. It's not infallible to say, yes, we will just take that pitch off the table and we will swing at these hitable pitches. Well, way easier said than done. Yeah, it's hard. to know. I mean, it doesn't help when you're, like, getting picked off for space. Well, yes. I did mean to mention the Max Scherzer quote, because I took Jeff Passon and others to task for overusing the term must win game in a non-elimination game. Well, in his pregame press conference before his game, Max Scher, he went even further.

Max Scher said, every game in the postseason's a must win. Every game. Every game is a must win. And we know what he means, obviously. It's important. But that's the ultimate inflation of October must win. Every game in the postseason's a must win. I want to be careful not to psychoanalyse someone I don't know. And I think one of the more frustrating things for me about the Mariners performance over the last two games as a fan of the team is that I just really do like this. Blue Jays team a lot. Yeah. I don't really dislike anyone on this Blue Jays team. You know, I could have imagined a matchup where I would have felt like a moral victory at yelling at some.

I don't even imagine. I didn't have that feeling. It's really despondent. I'm going to mute people I like on social media because they don't mean to be annoying. I'm annoyable right now. I recognize this is a personal failure, which is why they're just being. ritually sacrifice them, much like Humpty. No, I'm muting them, but I do need a reminder from someone in, like, a week to go back and

unmute them, because I will want to hear from them again, just not right now. Anyway, the thing about Max Scherzer, and I do, again, feel odd psychoanalyzing someone I don't know is like, I wonder what that man is going to do when he's done playing baseball, because it's not like the capacity he has for intensity is just going to dissipate. You know, like, is he going to find? Mind fulfillment in the HOA board? Probably not. What's that guy going to do with himself?

I do wonder. He has been a Players Association leadership figure, so perhaps he could channel this into being at the bargaining table. What is? Like yelling at Rob Bainford across the table. Yeah, I love that. Because, like, I think, you know, you want to be careful in how you describe these things. I don't think that Scherzer for all are joking, right? for all of John Schneider's joking

yesterday after him being, you know, that he was worried he was going to kill him, you know, if he tried to take him off the mound. I don't think that Scherzer would actually engage in like physical violence toward another person and it's hard to find amusement in that but I do find something darkly

funny about the image of him just like looming over Robben Fred in the context of a labor negotiation and I don't think I'm enjoying this particularly much. Yeah, I was thinking about that too. So Max Scherzerzer did bring must-win game energy to that start. And maybe it's just that when you reach a certain age and all the 40-somethings were showing out on Thursday while the

Aaron Rogers Joe Flacco duel was going on, Max Scher was delivering. And maybe it's as simple as he had three weeks off. Maybe that's the secret to success if they could just have him start every few weeks. So that means Brian Wu should start the rest of the postseason games for the Mariners. Yeah, maybe so. Or maybe it doesn't work that way when you're in your 20s. But yeah, you know, that was kind of a throwback.

Right. Not exactly vintage. It wasn't like peak max. I mean, he walked a bunch of guys and everything. But he was getting some whiffs and he was throwing a little bit harder. And maybe those aches and pains subsided because he had this extended break, which is not something you could really routinely do during. regular season. I mean, I guess you could if the contract were the appropriate size. I mean,

we've seen the sort of Roger Clemens model of come back in an extended age late in your career and pitch half a season or something and warm up late. Maybe you could have that for a 40-something pitcher who's just like, yeah, I'll give you one good start a month, maybe. But then what are you paying for that and what makes that worth their while and what are they doing in between? But Perhaps that helped him. I guess the reduced wear and tear may have outweighed whatever rust and it worked out in favor of Scherzer. But there's this indelible image of him barking at Schneider as Schneider was going out there. And I don't know whether Schneider seriously intended to pull him or whether he kind of knew what was going to happen and he was going out there to have a discussion and he was willing to be shouted down and turned around.

But that image, when we saw that, when I saw that, I was kind of delighted by it because it's, hey, it's Max being Max. It's a throwback. It's, you know, almost a starter out of a different era demanding to stay in the game, which is generally something I like to see more than we typically see these days. And that's just, we know him. And that was in character for him. In another context or with another player, that could be behavior that we decry. Right? Like, this could be some sort of toxic presence. I mean, generally, you don't really want people screaming at each other in the workplace. I mean, I remember talking about this with Annie McCullough when we had him on to talk about his Clayton Kershaw bio. And he was talking about how Clayton Kershaw just transforms into this wild man on his start days. And this even happens with, say, mild-mannered Rich Hill. And there are certain guys who just get super intense and everyone knows not to talk to. them and not to bother them.

And I think I said at the time, like, okay, clearly that has worked for Kershaw, but is there an element of this that this is just like different rules apply? And, you know, that's how it is. And baseball, that's how it is in all walks of life. If you're a star, maybe you're going to be treated a little bit differently. But the whole, like, I'm a genius at my thing. And so I get extra leeway and everyone will tiptoe around me. And is that essential to your success?

Are you thriving? Are you great at your craft because you're stalking around and you're yelling at people or no one can talk to you? Or is that sort of an affectation or performative? Or is it not really essential? Like, yeah, you have to hype and psych yourself up, but does it have to manifest in that form where you look like you're a loose cannon who's just going to come undone if someone makes the mistake, the faux of talking to you on a start day? Like, you know, I think there's kind of a culture of that that perhaps could stand to be towed down to some extent. But with Scherzer specifically, seems like everyone likes him and he's a leader and he's thoughtful and he's cerebral and he's not like that all the time. It's just that when he's on the mound.

And as far as I know, he's not snapping and actually lashing out at someone physically or this isn't crossing over into both. or hazing kind of behavior. Plus, you know, he's picking on the manager, which is kind of punching or yelling up, in a sense. I mean, he's almost the same age as Schneider. But Schneider's like the authority figure. And so I guess the power balance there is kind of difficult to discern because Scherzer has such standing in the game and he's a future hallfamer and all the rest of it. But also, Snyder is technically his boss, right? And so that's a little bit different than if he were.

yelling at his peer or a junior or a subordinate or something. So on the whole, I think it's fine, and I'm also sort of charmed by it. But also, if it were someone else or in a different situation, then probably we'd be like, hey, you know, maybe consider cooling it, buddy. I think that part of it is, and look, I do want to try to separate my frustration from manifesting in a particular game because of what it portended for the team that I wanted to win versus not from my sort of actual analysis of it. I do think that part of what we worry about

when we see that kind of behavior is, if this is what you are comfortable displaying where everyone can see, like, what are you behaving like behind the scenes? And I think that we've had sufficient testimony to his character beyond sort of how he is on a start day. I do think that it's fine to say, you know, you are a future Hall of Famer,

you are, you know, made better by your intensity and also, you know, this surely can't, isn't the only way that that intensity can manifest and some amount of emotional regulation toward your coworkers, even if it is to a superior, that's not like an unreasonable thing to ask of you. Right, yeah. Plus, you're a veteran, you're a leader, you're modeling behavior for, and these aren't toddlers or something, you know. It's not like they're imprinting on maxers.

and they're going to do exactly what he does. But, yeah, especially if you're a union leader and you're a team leader and all the rest of it, then maybe you want to set an example of a little less rageful. But I guess, yeah, it's mitigating circumstances because it's this game and it's this guy. Right. And I do think that, like, it washes over you a little differently within the context of, you know, a crucial, maybe crucial is a better way. a way to phrase it than must win, but a crucial

postseason game rather than, you know, just like some regular season start in July or whatever, I think we can appreciate that everyone is operating at a higher emotional register in a, you know, a

game four. It's not maybe must win, but it's as close to without being technically must win for them. Like, if you go down 3-1, that's rough sledding. head, right? So I can appreciate why it would inspire the kind of feeling that it does. But, you know, I think it's fine for us to say, hey, you're a grown-ass man, you know, and, and you're clear, and he's clearly capable of more normal interpersonal dynamics, which is why we are on some

level, like, willing to kind of give him a pass, but also like, hey, that means that you can, you can turn it down a little bit, you know? And I also, what I also, having said that, would would offer that I'm always a little unsure what the right amount of, of intervention is in a social dynamic I'm not a participant in, right? Like, I think that there are all kinds of ways to relate to people interpersonally that I would find inappropriate or distasteful that aren't problematic. And so, like, other people get to have their shi interpersonal ways, you know, and that's not necessarily my business. Having said that, like, this is, this is interpersonal behavior that we all

witness. And I do think that that Scher has like a, you know, he is so revered within the game and for very good reasons that you kind of wonder, but then it's like, are you being a bummer? But then it's like, sometimes, you know, you got to be a little bit of a bummer. So I don't know. It's a, it's a tricky one for me. I, and I do think that it washes over me differently because I have a lot of confidence that, like, he is. is not, like, hazing rookies or whatever, you know, that he's not, like, being a dick in other contexts, but, like, he is maybe being a little bit of a dick in this context. Yeah, it doesn't seem like people are bothered by it.

Even Schneider is joking about it, making light of it. And I guess we wouldn't necessarily know if people were genuinely bothered by it because... Because he's so revered. Who's going to be the person to say? I don't like this. Right. Is some young guy going to come out, speak publicly about it? Probably not, right?

So you never know, and so I want to be cautious about that. But as long as he's not actively picking fights, like if it's just, hey, leave me alone on this day, you know, I'm not going to be in the mood to chat. That's okay, as long as you set that expectation and you're not going out of your way to explode at people. And as long as you make some accommodations, like, you know, if someone says something completely, innocuous to you or is not familiar with the rules of your start day or something, don't bite their heads off. But if that's just how you function and excel and it's not harming anyone, then that's okay. And it seems like, at least from the public comments that players basically treat it like that, you know, that's Max being Max and it's sort of funny and quirky and that's

that. But yeah, you never know, right? So I guess And it's not a normal workplace in any number of ways. It's not a normal workplace. Just the makeup, the demographics of the employees, the teammates, just the pressure on you, the spotlight, the intensity of all of it, the salaries. Just everything is so far beyond our ken, really. It's not like we have the most typical jobs either. but we have, I mean, you know, and we're around the game, obviously, but it's still just difficult to put ourselves in that sort of position, really.

But you don't want to just excuse any kind of behavior on that ground because that is often. Yeah, it's like, you know, lots of toxic workplaces in sports and not in sports that has trotted out as the excuse. It's like, well, the normal rules don't apply to this because of this circumstance and that circumstance. And no, even if it's an outlier, that doesn't mean that you can't still have some standards. Right. And this is what I'm trying to get at. Like, I want to be clear that I'm not comping his behavior on the mound to this. But, like, for instance, the practice, which we had said we weren't doing anymore and then, like, a lot of other things we're seeing retrenchment on, of having rookies dress funny on the plane, fine. But they were dressing funny on the plane by dressing. as women. And we stopped doing that in part because team social media people were like, hey, look at this funny thing. And we were like, but, okay, so like the five of this actually kind of sucks. And like you have female employees and you're like denigrating them by making

them women. And so then what do you think of women? And like we were, we weren't doing it anymore. Yeah. And now apparently we are. And we shouldn't. I would prefer we not do that. Like, we don't have to, we can pretend that the world will be different three years from now. Anyway, all of that to say, like, that is a behavior and a workplace ritual that took place away from the purview of the public for a long time. And I would still have said, isn't great. And that the league has a vested interest in saying, you can do a little light hazing of rookies. You can make them dress up funny. You can't make them dress up funny in this way, right? Like, this is a bad workplace environment to set. You want to make them go to Starbucks in their uniforms. I think the

hazing thing is like weird, but like that's largely harmless. So we can have lines around this stuff even if it isn't our workplace, even if it isn't our culture. And so this is the, this is like the thing that you're trying to like feel your way through. It's like it doesn't, everything doesn't have to be about for me everything doesn't have to be to my standard but we can still have standards and so you're always trying to feel out where that line is you know i do wonder like part of this too and not that we should like you know grant exemptions or anything but like part of this too is like Scherzer's just been around for so long and he came up at a time yeah and he's just like a relic from an earlier era yeah i do wonder if there's like a bit of a like you know exemption

being granted here in terms of our understanding of it. And I don't, you know, we may be part of why we need to be a little less concerned about it than we otherwise would be. And I feel like I, I don't know. I don't know if I want to give him a pass or not. I'm not, I don't find myself bothered by it, so I'm not trying to like artificially. Yeah, that's the thing. Lest it seems like we're concerned trolling or excessively fretting or hand-wringing. I'm not actually bothered by this, really that bothered by this. I'm just kind of interrogating, why am I not bothered by it? And I think that part of, part of why I'm not is that, like, I think that there has been a, like, the game has already rendered a judgment about how it wants people to behave in this context and has

largely seemed to say, nah, like, that's not, right? Like, I don't see, I don't see young starters doing this. No. And so, I think that's part of why I'm, like, not really all that fussed about it because one, I don't think that it is inherently objectionable behavior because of how precise he is in directing the confrontational energy. It's like it's to his pitching coach. It's to his manager. It's not to other members of his team, you know, subordinate members of the coaching staff. So there's that piece of it. But also like we've answered this question. And he's still pitching. So like, you know, I don't think you're going to teach him a new trick necessarily. It's like he personally has not been reformed or sanitized in this respect, but the

game as a whole has. And so it's sort of robbed of its power to be bad in a way. It's just, oh, that's that's him, but he's singular. He's just left over from that earlier era. It's like a last gasp of that sort of starter mentality. And so it's kind of, it's quaint in a way. Yeah. And I think that, like, one of the things that the game, and we see this across pro sports, right, in the men's and women's game, I think that there is this ongoing conversation about, like, how we balance celebration and excitement and, like, genuine expressions. of emotion with like one-uping your opponent right and i i think that we have had a conversation in baseball that has largely come down along the lines of like you get to be excited you get to

celebrate your achievement and the place where we can still kind of urge you to to redirect that energy is when it's being it's being pointed at your opponent right you know i know i know that talking as part of the game and i know that like guys josh you know like getting on each other as part of the game i i don't love it when that gets like you know directed at your opponent right the stare down like i just it feels tacky to me if you you know stride off the mound because you've just gotten a big strike out and you're pumped and you're pounding your chest and you're going like yeah man go for it like you just did an amazing thing you you hit a big home run and you bat flip and you're like directing it at the stands go you know go with god in a good wind i don't love it when the guys are

like kind of being dicks to each other but i think that they largely aren't you know that they largely do a good job of like making it clear i'm excited for me i'm not being an asshole to you sorry for this where so yeah i i think but i you know those social boundaries and like lines are are constant source of negotiation and i think they kind of have to be because the people who are cycling through the game are always changing. Like, it's always, you know, there's some core group that's like been in the majors for a long time, but you have new people and they have new perspectives and they have, you know, they're younger. Like, they, it makes sense that their sort of sense of these things and culture around it might be shifting. So it,

it's never a finished conversation. But I do think it's largely a more generous one. And like, it sort of landed in the right place and yeah like we will there are any number of ways in which we will never see another like him maybe you know and so to have a little remnant of this guy I think is okay provided he doesn't like you know slug John Schneider I also always have to be really careful because I'm from Seattle and a fan of Seattle sports John Schneider is also the name of the Seahawks GM and so sometimes I will tweet about one and people are like why don't you like Blue Jays manager? And I'm like, oh, no, I don't have anything to say about his input into the draft.

It's fine. Well, I hope that at least the Brewers managed to hit a little bit. Yeah. I enjoyed seeing Scherzer's performance. I'm sorry for your sake that it came at the expense of your team. But I have enjoyed the way that the Blue Jays and the Brewers seem to set some of that baggage aside that they were carrying coming into the playoffs. just the whole, oh, they have underperformed in the postseason and suddenly their bats disappear and the offense dries up and they make quick exits or, you know, in the Blue Jay's case, they can't win a game, right? And it's just can't advance. And they seem to conquer that. The Blue Jay is just stomping all over the Yankees in the division series round. And then the Brewers putting on a show at least for the first couple games against the Cubs and then managing to stick it out. And it seemed like they had put that. behind them and then the first couple games of the ALCS went the way they did.

Now, the Bouges have immediately rebounded from that much to your dismay, but the brewers have not. And I'd like them, if they have to go into that good night, I'd like them to go a little less gently. I'd like to, now, it's complicated for me because I would rather that their offensive breakout not come against Shohei Otani specifically, but, you know, if he could pitch pretty well, and then maybe they beat up on the bullpen, whoever comes. That'd be fine with me.

You know, it's hard for me to wish ill upon Shohay, but I do generally wish the opposite of ill against the brewers. I'd like, you know, people will know whether this happened by the time they're listening to this, but I'd like it not to be a sweep. I'd like it not to be a total trouncing. I'd like the brewers at least to show what they're made of because they're made of very good baseball players and pretty good. hitters and their offensive weaknesses have been exposed here in the sense that they're not hard

hitters, they're not sluggers, they're more babit and speed and, you know, high batting average and just making more than the sum of their parts sort of thing. And that's why the Blue Jays, I think, have an edge on them offensively because the Blue Jays high batting average, even better strikeout rate, but also can really put a hurting on some pitches and can hit the ball a long way. And that has not been the Brewer's strength, obviously. They have guys who can hit home runs, and sometimes they hit plenty, but they have not done that. And so it has exposed their lack of hard hit balls, their lack of barrels. This was the knock on their offense. They just, you know, they do some things well offensively, and then they combine that with good defense and good pitching. And

And the whole is a very good baseball team. And so I'd like them not to go out looking like less than a very good baseball team because I believe that's what they are. I just wish so strongly that Smoltz was on that series instead. Because I wonder if maintaining the cognitive dissidents would break his brain in a way that would allow for a breakthrough. because the brewers are John Smoltz's platonic ideal of an offense. And to be clear, I think that that offense is better than the run production they have mustered against the Dodgers. Having said that, they are on the brink of elimination in part because they have not been able to square up the baseball and they have not been able to hit it hard. And it has been, this thing has been happening

to me, Ben, where I, let's imagine a girl, we'll name her Reg Mauley. And, and it has been, and And let's pretend for a moment that she has an unblacked out MLB TV login. It doesn't matter where it came from. And so she is just, she just watches the games in MLBTV, despite it being the postseason. And it's fine. And she can overlay without having to worry about sinking or any of this nonsense. That's nice. The Mariners Radio Feed, let's pretend that that exists.

This thing has been happening to Reg where reliably in the seventh inning, the ultimate inning, the alternative radio feeds stop working it's always in the seventh and I'm going to do a big swear and Shane should bleep it but I want everybody to be ready I want you to feel the force of this swear

coming through the microphone what the fuck is happening in the seventh because here's the deal I don't mind Joe Davis I think Joe Davis is a good broadcaster I think he's plateau a little bit anyway, it doesn't matter why am I having to listen to John Smoltz

talk about the lack of value of the home run When, one, I am watching the Blue Jays, hit one runs. I'm getting the Mariners, in T-Mobile, which is hard to do when it's 55 degrees out at first pitch. Never mind what the temperature is when the game is concluding. What is happening? What is it about the seventh inning? Is there some trick?

Am I, like, fooling? Sorry, is Reg Malie? Yes. What a wonderful world it would be if this were you that we were talking about. If this were me. Yeah. What is happening? What is happening to her?

What is she doing wrong? What transgressions has she committed, either in this life or a past one, that she's then having to listen to anyway. I don't know. In this scenario, how many times would Reg have heard the definition of Apocaco and have been reminded of a Mike Piazza quote after September 11th? It's just an entirely uninteresting quote by Mike Piazza? That's the thing about it. It's not a good quote. Good quote. It's a nothing burger. It's just word salads. It's not. I want to be careful that I'm not like being a little insensitive here. I feel like they were like, what is a quote that happened after 9-11? It'll be meaningful to people because of the tragedy. And it's like, sure, but the quote also has to be meaningful. And then you have the dissonance of like, I am meant to have reverence for this quote.

because of its proximity to tragedy, which, again, I'm not trying to make light of. But then the rest of the ad read is delivered. I don't know who's doing the ad read. I can't tell what Gall it is. But in the most upbeat way, and I'm like, what is your grand unified theory? This is like, do you want to hear a crazy expression

that I'm about to drop on the podcast? What is your grand unified theory of 9-11 in this moment, MLB? Like, am I meant to be, am I meant to be coming from a place of like revenance for lives lost or am I supposed to be upbeat at the... It's so unhinged. The nostalgia for when baseball healed the nation or something.

Right. I simply could not tell you, Ben. I simply couldn't tell you. Yeah. It's very odd. For people who don't know what we're talking about because they're not listening to the radio broadcast, it's the strangest thing that when you listen to the game day audio, the Odyssey audio here, it's incredibly repetitive. And we talked about this unreal, it's so strange. And we talked about this last postseason two, because we were talking

a lot last October about the flickering of the green screened in ads and the overlays there and how distracting that is. And it still is, to be clear, it's not better than it was. They haven't fixed that problem. They haven't. It still annoys me. The fact that when a player is sort of superimposed on the behind-the-plate advertising, it's just all flickery and weird-looking and looks kind of... Half in, half out, like he's freaking Marty McFly and back to the future or something? Have to figure that out. It still bugs me a lot.

I've been less of a broken record about it, but not because the problem has been addressed. Right, it hasn't been. We were complaining about that a lot last postseason, and then people were sharing their gripes about the radio broadcast, too. So we talked about that. So the way that it will sometimes go to the ad break before the inning is over, before the broadcaster sign off or return late and miss actual action. But then also the fact that between innings, you hear the same promos over and over and over every single inning break.

It's incredible. It's so strange because you'd think there are people listening to this. You'd think that they would want to advertise something like that. Or even just promote different products. Whatever they're promoting. It's making me long for capitalism in a way that is completely unhinged. It's so strange. I'm like, please give me a freaking ad.

Surely the local plumbers union wants me to know. You wish for the sweet release of actual or sweet relief of actual marketing because it could be a nice alternative. So they do this little thing where, oh, let's define a baseball term. But it's apo taco every single. Every single time. It's so weird. It's so weird. I would appreciate that exercise if we were spared advertising because they were familiarizing everyone with the baseball lexicon and there was an actual variety.

Then that'd be nice. That'd be fun. But it's the same thing over and over and over. We've complained about this before. You know, when on MLBTV, they've shown various clips and highlights. but they show the same ones over and over again. And it's like, you could choose from anything in baseball history. You have this vast resource.

Why am I ever seeing a single repeat? Right. You have all the clips. You have every single one at your disposal. You do not have to clear rights for them. You can just show us something cool. And there have been, you know, so many cool moments. Why are we hearing the same freaking thing?

It's unfathomable. Unfathomable. It must have something. to do with some kind of agreements and contracts. I don't know. It's just, why would you not want to use this? Plug a product, please, just anything. Wait, for the love of God.

Anything will drive you to distraction when it's the same message over and over and over. There was a defector piece about the Piazza quote and the 9-11 remembrance, but the Apotako is the strangest thing we, I know what an Apotaco is. I mean, I knew already, but if I hadn't known, I would know that better than I know anything else in the world because I've... My mom's phone number, my own social security number. Like, I... It's incredible. It's just defies belief.

And I, I... And then the other thing about it, Ben, is I don't... This might be a meg problem or a reg problem, excuse me. Like, I, then I want a chaco taco. Every time I hear that ad, I'm like, why am I not eating a chaco taco right now, you know? See, if they segwayed into a chaco taco ad, then, that would be capitalism, and that would be at least a little bit of breaking up the Apotaco definition in every single inning break.

I still wouldn't have a chocolate taco, so maybe I don't want them. But I'm suffering already. I'm already trapped in a loop, a weird time loop, and then I still don't have ice cream. So maybe it would be better if they just told me about ice cream because then maybe I'd be motivated to go get some. Maybe I'd be like, well, I've got to go get some ice cream. Somebody's got to get to the bottom of this, and maybe it's, me, maybe it's us, or maybe someone listening right now is familiar with these arrangements

and understands why it is done this way. But it seems just completely confounding and lazy or I don't know what it is, but you could use that audio real estate for so many either lucrative or actually beneficial pro-social ways. Sure. By all means, promote your product, but not in this way, which makes me hate everything everything about it. I never want to see an opo taco ever again in my life. Yes, I will wake up in a cold sweat hearing the definition of apotaco for the 10,000th time. And I'm not even listening to the radio broadcast as much as some people are. So the people who are consuming these games primarily via the post via radio, yeah, I pity you and I pity Reg. We're keeping K-Fabe about Reg, another wrestling term, two episodes in a row. But I'm keeping K-Fabe about Humpty. being a real fish, but also about reg not being Meg. Right.

I pity her and anyone else who has been subjected to this much repetitious promotion. It just inspires you to be like, the repetition makes you hate the thing. So you find yourself sitting there going, I hate Apotococos. And then what's the fuck about 9-11, my, goddamn. I had no negative feelings about Apotacos previously. many negative feelings about 9-11, to be clear, but not about apatacos anyway. I guess lest we repeat ourselves so many times that people start to hate us. Many negative feelings about 9-11.

What a sentence. I want to go on the records that that is the case, just in case my position was clear. Just in case it wasn't clear. Yeah. Anyway, what I'm saying is I want the brewers to at least go down swinging and actually connecting with something when they swing, not not swinging. and missing, but actually hitting some balls hard. That would be, that would be nice. Yeah, we're about to, uh, if you liked the little taste we had last time of Meg

narrating play-by-play from the Dodgers game, then you might be about to get a bit of that. Though maybe she will just go silent for the rest of this episode. That is also possible. I'll just do a monologue while you just quietly curse over there. Yes, I would like to share my location. Okay. I'm going to mute. that I can not blast game audio.

Yes, or blasting Apotaco onto this podcast, potentially, too. All right. So we'll see what happens, obviously, next time if one of these series or both of these series has or have been completed by next time we pod, then we will. Oh, great. I just came in in time to see Leo Rivas get picked off again. Yeah. Yeah. Look, there were some bad plays.

There are obviously bad base running plays. of us getting picked off. Yeah, the nailer one, last out at the third base. Of course, the thing that you're never supposed to do, especially in that situation when you need base runners and runs, and then Scherzer with his first pick-off in nine years. Yeah, so they were sloppy, and maybe it wasn't the best approach, but credit to Toronto as well.

So we'll see. We'll return and recap as soon as the dust settles on these games and these series, and of course we'll have plenty of world series. previewing to do when the matchups are set. I already want to die, and it hasn't even started yet. Help wanted this series. Oh, get the youth. Oh, no.

Oh, no. Why did I volunteer to... Oh, boy, you're morphing into... Here's what I can't understand. Here's what I can't decide on something. Dan Wilson looks like he wants to throw up. Here's... I need your feedback.

So the advisability of me going and doing this is maybe making itself clear as in it isn't advisable at all. But so, like, I had designs on if the Mariners were to advance with the World Series, like, going and covering some games in person because, like, and so, like, but I haven't bought a ticket home yet. And I was like, oh, I don't know what to do. And, like, the refundable ones are, like, so much more expensive. Like, it was adding, like, $300 to my round trip to do refunds. And so then I was like, oh, wait and see. And then I was like, before game three, I was like, if they win, if they went tonight, I'll buy a ticket. And then they didn't.

And so I haven't yet. And I'm like, it is, again, as we try to understand the boundaries of magic and like its purposes, is the fact that I haven't bought the ticket, the reason that they've lost? Is it like showing a lack of faith? It is. I don't think that's the reason. but yes, it is. I don't think that's a reason either. I can sing a certain lack of faith.

But yeah, you got to go if you can, if you have the opportunity, I think. Just, I mean, it would make podcasting more difficult probably. But also it is a once in the lifetime opportunity, at least once in your lifetime thus far. Hopefully not the rest of your lifetime. But seeing the Mariners in the World Series, that has not happened previously. So. I went on Toronto radio earlier this week. I was asked about, like, what does it feel like to have them on the precipice of this?

And I was like, well, the thing you have to understand is that, like, a lot of people have died since the last one of the Mariners were in the ALCS. There's some dead air after that. That's an effectively wild comment. That's less a sports radio comment. Yeah, but I was like, you know, it was good to have something else to think about than the baseball game during that 15 inning one, like, you know, life and death and the passage of time.

So anyway. Yeah. Well, I saw something in the bandwag. on Friday that I wanted to bring to your attention because I quibble with it. So this was, Zach Kreiser was writing about something that was told to him, and Zach writes, I was talking to a Dodgers fan last night who, after admitting a fondness for the Mariners, seized upon the salary cap chatter and sketched an interesting emotional counter argument about his favorite juggernaut. The Dodgers, he noted, lead with stars who arrived as something

approaching cast-offs, I would question the term cast-off, but what it means is transplants, right? They came from elsewhere. Yeah, not cast-offs. I'm sorry. They were not cast-off. Yeah, Moogie Betts famously, I mean, like, I guess you could, if one wanted to make an argument, but anyway, yeah.

They came from elsewhere, is the point. So it continues. Betts was famously, or infamously, traded away from the Red Sox, Freddie Freeman, was abandoned by the Braves. That's, you know, that's kind of true. They moved on, right? You know, Shohei Otani, well, everyone wanted him, but the beginning of his career was deflated by the Angels incompetence. The Dodgers were a safe haven.

Max Muncie was a waiver claim. Teaska Hernandez arrived on a pillow contract after a downseason. His narrative capabilities flagged when he got to the pitching staff that has helped L.A. take a strangle hold on the series. But, you know, he had me for a minute. And Zach says, I do wonder if the Dodgers placed themselves in the lineage of the Corps Four Yankees by winning back World Series, how the baseball public will respond. I don't wonder. I'm pretty certain how the baseball will respond. It's already responding that way. There will always be fans who line up to rail against the most financially powerful teams against the perpetual title contenders.

But the individual movie villain energy that felt so easily placed upon the heads of those Yankees doesn't feel as natural on bets or Freeman or Otani. And there's not a George Steinbrenner lightning rod figure to put a face on any evil empire sequel. The salary cap battle will happen. The Dodgers would be a key piece. piece of it, but I'm not sure the fans will really turn on this core, not yet, not like the Yankees. Yeah. I disagree. I think they will and are and perhaps already have to some extent. But I, now this is partly just Dodgers fan brain saying, how could you hate our wonderful guys, right?

I think that's probably the Dodgers fan speaking to Zach who's saying, how could you hate these guys? They're so lovable and other people will not see it that way. I agree that on an individual level, these are likable players. And I don't know that the core four, that the Yankees were necessarily unlikable. I mean, you know, I was a Yankees fan at the time, so I'm subject to the same bias. But Bernie Williams, of course, was not classified as core four kind of unfairly, but was extremely likable. And, you know, the other guys did people like hate Andy Pettit? particularly. No, you know, at least not till the HGH stuff came out. And Pasada, you know, he could be a bit of a redass or get on your nerves a little if you weren't a fan of his team. But it wasn't like he was some pariah or something. And Rivera, I think people mostly respected. Like, you know, you hated to see him pitching against you in a big moment, of course. But he wasn't that hateable, really. I mean, he was like, he was implacable. He was just the Terminator. Like you couldn't.

reason with him, you know, the bad Terminator, not the nice Terminator who ends up being an ally. He wasn't a nice Terminator. No, he wasn't helping. He wasn't, you know, Arnold's where suddenly he's your ally, but he was more of, you know, the Terminator. He was a good Terminator. He wasn't a nice Terminator. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess, I guess, you know, he was more of the Robert Patrick than the Arnold, but it wasn't like you hated him. You kind of had to hand it to him, I guess, as much as you were sick of seeing him being on the mound in these moments. And then Jeter, I think, was generally likable except for the fact that his accomplishments and his persona and all the rest of it was so blown out of proportion. And he was a great player and a Hall of Famer and all the rest. But he was so lionized and there was just so much hagiography and everything that it became kind of sickening if you weren't a Yankees fan or, frankly, even if you were. sometimes where it's like, look, he's great, you know, like we don't need to make him into a deity of some sort. He's a really good baseball player, but, you know, all sorts of mystical powers

of leadership and winning and clutchness were constantly attributed to him. So that rubbed people the wrong way. But I think what makes this Dodgers core actually less likable than that Yankees core is that those guys were homegrown. The Yankees came by that kind of. of, you know, in a different way. I mean, they still spent a lot. They were still the big bad Yankees, of course. But those guys, they drafted and developed and they were career Yankees. And so you kind of had to give it to them. Like they weren't purely purchasing, you know, it was hard to say, at least with some of those teams that they had really bought a championship because they had also drafted and developed those key players. And then, of course, they

kept them and they signed them to big extension. and all the rest and other teams. They did bring in free agents, you know. Oh, of course, yeah. But to the extent that those teams were identified with that core homegrown, you know, that collection of players who propelled them into being a dynastic team in contrast to earlier eras, you know, like the 1980s Yankees who were good, but never really gelled and often were just signing the biggest name and the highest price guy and let's go get Dave Winfield and let's go get

Reggie or, you know, that's the 70s, but right, you were just constantly going and getting Ricky Henders, whoever the star was established elsewhere, these guys, they broke in with the Yankees and became stars with the Yankees and many of them stayed with the Yankees for their whole career. Whereas in this case, the Dodgers are just plucking all of these stars from other franchises. I hate to break it to you, Ben, but everybody hated those Yankees teams. None of them were likable. No. No one liked, no, what are you? I get what you mean. I think that there's like a different,

it washes over people a little differently. But here's the thing about it. You're just going to find a reason to dislike the team that spends the most money and is really good. You're just going to find it. Or even if they don't spend the most money, if they win every year, you're still going to dislike them.

Maybe it'll take a little longer, but eventually you're going to get sick of them. And the Yankees, though, look, there's just a whole historical thing with the Yankees that it's not as if you're ever evaluated. a Yankees team in isolation. It's always part of this story tradition and all the championships passed and everything. And so you're already pre-sick of them if you're not a Yankees fan because of that.

But like when they won in 96, let's say, you probably weren't sick of them because this was a new team and young and by Yankee standards they hadn't won for a long time. And they came back in that series and, you know, some of these guys were pretty likable. But then, you know, they went in 98 and 99 in 2000. And yes, of course, by that point, you're sick of them, absolutely, and you hate them. But I think it was easier because, yeah, there was George Steinbrenner and Mr. Money Bags and the whole. Yeah, Brace Miller. Sorry.

You just strike out. By all means. Springer swing. Swing. What a fascinating little artifact we are about to leave to people. Yes. And look, look, sometimes you have to, you just have a bunch of meetings back to back. back to back to back and then they get delayed and it's like when the first appointment at the doctor's

office takes longer than everybody thought it would and then the entire day is blown and you're missing lunch and then you have to pod and you have to pod because you can't pod tomorrow you have to pod today and we're going to live stream anyway this is like a little taste a little preview of the live stream for patreon supporters that will have already happened the first of them but there's another one coming up in in a week or so when the world series is going on so you can still sign up. Net Carver tier or above, join us. But yes, this is a little sneak preview of what the live streams are like, except with your anxiety ratcheted up to 11. But the point is, Freddie Freeman was beloved by Braves fans. While he was with that team,

Mookie Betz was beloved by Red Sox fans. Shohayotani was beloved by Angels fans and also generally, I guess, by baseball fans. There wasn't really a reason to root against him as long as he was with such an inept team. Just on the Otani part, I feel bummed out by how many people make jokes about the gambling stuff with him still. It bones me out. Yeah.

I don't like it. It's tired, I think, but, yeah, it hasn't stopped. But even putting the gambling stuff aside, once he took that money, which he earned, and if anything, made it more team-friendly than he had to, and once he went to the favorites and hopped on that frontrunner bandwagon, basically, there were people who were always going to turn on him,

and that has happened. And even if they don't personally loathe him, they don't root for him anymore. They root against him. And I understand why, because you don't want his team to do well, and you're just sort of sick of it. So I think that the Dodgers at the start of this run

that they have been on, they were more likable, partly because they just hadn't broken through. I don't know what it was. Oh, that was almost bad. Never mind, it's fine. Partly because they had not broken through yet, and they hadn't won since 1988,

and they had a bunch of early playoff painful exits. Yeah. So that made people a little less sick of them. And also, they were a much more homegrown team at that time. And I've written about how the composition of their roster and its homegrownness has changed. They've gotten so much less homegrown. It's much less guys drafted and developed by the Dodgers.

or reclamation projects whom they plucked off the scrap heap. You know, they're very... No, it's just a double. It's fine. I'm just going to keep talking about you. I'm sorry. Make sounds, I understand. It comes with the territory here.

But they are now not likable because they have morphed into mercenaries, essentially. I mean, you know, there are still some homegrown guys and some guys who are holdovers. But what they have done is they have gone and, and done, you know, Thanos collecting the Infinity Stones, and they've plucked other franchises, famous and beloved players, and they've put them in Dodgers uniforms. And if anything, I think that makes them less likable. I don't know that Red Sox fans hold the Dodgers responsible for trading four bets.

I think they hold the Red Sox responsible for trading him away, rightly. And the Braves, like, they moved on, and they clearly weren't going to retain Freddie under any circumstances, and they were just going to move on to Olson. and Shohei, well, can you really blame him for leaving the angels at least? But that's what they've done. They've shopped at the top of the market now, and they have gone and gotten the best players of NPB

and the best players of all these other franchises. And that's quite hateable, I think. Even if you don't hate Shohei Otani or Muki Betts or Freddie Freeman, I mean, how could you hate Muki? He's delightful. But the fact that they all did go to the Dodgers and decide to stay there and sign big contracts, et cetera, they're hateable now.

I don't think they're any less hateable. If they repeat, if they win the World Series this year, they're not any less hateable, even if they're likable on an individual level. I think that you're right in some respects. I do think you were like discounting the ability of fans of other teams to just find a reason to dislike the team. They're primed to dislike whether it was the early,

the early Yankees, clubs you're referring to there or the current iteration of the Dodgers, like ask a Padres fan how they felt about the Dodgers before this crop came in. It wasn't better, you know, they weren't like, oh, we actually think their sweetest can be and now we're furious because they have Freddie Freeman and Mookie Betts. No, they hated them. They hated them. They hated them. Yeah. I don't think they were as hated generally, though. I think that's probably right. I mean, by your direct division rival or the person who's keeping you on the playoffs sure but i think that those yankees teams were hated by everybody though yeah sorry to inform yeah that's right that sweeper is good that's a good

you've disabused me of my my childhood naivete that everyone loved my baseball team ben everybody hated those teams they hated those teams yes but but yes i really love alhander kirk man i do love him. I want him to have a bad day at work, but I do, I do love him. They're a likable team. It's really, it's so annoying. If it was the Yankees, for instance, just to pick a team out of my mind space, like, I would be able to just be like, but I like this, I like them. Yeah. No, that's the problem, really, is that I want all of these teams to do well, or at least the Dodgers have had their winning, they have everything, right? But all these other teams, yeah, I'd like to see the Mariners win a World Series. I'd like to see the Blue Jays win a World Series. I would do.

I'd like to see the Brewers win a World Series. Unfortunately, only one of them can. I do worry. I had this thought yesterday as I was sitting on the couch being breathed and really appreciating the amount of restraint I was showing on social media. And I did advocate for killing Humphys. So you can imagine what other thoughts were rolling around in my brain that I was like, I had, I demonstrated admirable restraint. I did have the thought. I was like, are either of these scenes just going to get fucking poroused by the goddamn Dodgers?

Yeah. I'd worry about that a little bit. It's quite possible. They're looking good. And then Craig is like, no, they might still have vulnerabilities. And I was like, you're very sweet, but also, and they look pretty good right now. They do. Yes.

They absolutely could lose. Sure. They definitely could. I don't think they're unbeatable or anything. And they could go back to their old ways of not hitting with runners in scoring position and bats coming up empty and you go cold in the wrong week and you're done. And that could happen to the Dodgers. But it is hard to see them the first few games, this performance that they've put on against the Brewers and say. All of Bryce Miller's Velos in the first inning were up at least a tick and a half.

Like his his fastball is up three ticks His slurs up a tick and a half His sinker is up 2.8 Sweepers of 2.1 He is just like he also He has a Bible verse Like cited on his cap And I got nervous for a second

But I think it's fine Because he has Isaiah 68 on his cap And that is Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying whom shall I send and who will go for us? And I said, here am I, send me. And I'm like, that's confidence, Bryce. I like it.

I like that confidence, my guy. Yeah, I'm not sure that's the mindset the Mariners had. I think their mindset was let's send Wu if we can. And if we can't, I guess we'll send Miller. But it worked out okay. But Bryce is like, no, I am. Bryce is like, is this the verse that leads into the I am him stuff? He is him.

I am him. I don't understand athletes, man. And they're such mysteries. Yeah. Well, good for him. I hope his arm doesn't explode, but clearly he's treating this like a must-win game, which all postseason games are apparently. Okay.

The last thing I wanted to ask you about before I put you out of your misery, but really, you will remain in misery. It's just whether you're on the podcast or not. Maybe you're even less miserable while I'm slightly distracting you here. Who knows? I would like to have Julio had seen another pitch, but fine, I guess. I never know what. what people want from this podcast when this time of year rolls around because most people are

primarily fans of their team. And so when we're hyper fixated on a few teams, we're perhaps alienating everyone else. I think, you know, we're a national baseball podcast. People are used to us talking about the game as a whole. And presumably they expect and want that from us. But probably they also miss when we would talk about their team or other things, not just the Mariners and the Brewers and the Blue Jays and the Touch. but I do want to ask you about a Seattle University pitching product, which I've always known that Terrick Scoobble attended Seattle University. There was never a time.

I know that when I'm senile in a frigging home. Yes, but Terrick Scoople has come up because as some of the hot stove speculation has started, among eliminated. Okay, it wasn't a home run, but Barger had a less good play. Yeah, you run, Cal, you get that dumper to second. There we go. A double for the dumper. Good for him.

Double for the dumpler. Petriello had an interesting article at MLB.com, by the way, which I think we've touched on this, but the fact that the one knee-down catching stance, which has benefits and pays dividends when it comes to framing and other aspects of defense without seemingly detracting from the ability to block or anything. Like one pass ball. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm somewhat skeptical of that just because the number of wild pitches while he was back there's a little home cooking going on.

I agree with you. I agree with you. That was my thought too. I was like, sure. Yeah. We'll let that slide. Granted, he plays a lot of road games too. But yeah, there's something. And he's good back there. I don't mean to say he's not. But yeah. Yeah, I should, I should stat blessed that. It's like when you, you know, certain basketball players, there was like the study. I think it was Tom Haberstrow made. Maybe did the, like, when Michael Jordan won defensive player the year, it's like, you know, is that a turnover? Like, is that a block? Like, some of that, at least in the past, before it was more standardized. You could kind of cook the books a little bit for your hometown hero. I'd like to study, and perhaps at some point I will.

Just the, you know, what's the typical ratio of wild pitches to pass balls? Right. Is Cal's out of the ordinary this season and in prior seasons? Yeah. You know, just saying. Yeah. The distinctions between wild pitches and past balls are always a little hazy and nebulous and kind of arbitrary to begin with. So it, you know, it doesn't bother me that much.

But because that is one of the fun facts that's trotted out there to burnish the legend of his legitimately excellent season. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway. That's fair. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that, like, it is an underrated area of potential home cooking. I think that he's good back there.

Yeah. But I don't think he's, I mean, his only pass ball was in the postseason. He didn't have a regular season pass ball. That's wild. That was not a strike, sir. It wasn't. He called that a ball. It was zero patch balls in the regular season this year, 39 wild pitches.

That's extreme. The ratios in previous seasons for Cal. I agree. Five to nine pass balls to wild pitches, three to 22, three to 31, five to 21, five to 27 and then zero to 39. So, you know, I don't know. I'll look for what are the most out of whack ratios, so wild pitches to pass balls. How much of an outlier is that really? And then maybe if I'm really feeling industrious, I can watch all of the wild pitches when Cal was behind the plate. I was going to say, like pull a Meg and go do some very deep film study that takes you two

weeks to write up. Yeah, how many of those are kind of questionable. Anyway, the Seattle University pitcher that I am invoking here. Oh, why did I bring up Cal? Why? Because Petriella's article, the one knee down stance, which has benefits defensively, also seems to have benefits from a fatigue standpoint, because it's just not as much wear and tear on your knees, on your haunches, if you're not fully crouching, but you're just doing the one knee down.

He should be on first base right now is the problem. Like, that was ball four. It was in the exact same. The same stupid spot is the prior splitter. Like... The sounds you're making are completely unrelated to the points I'm making. Yeah, you're doing great. It sounds like you're extremely frustrated.

No, I'm not mad at you. You're the best podcast. I'm the best. The nine points about one knee downstances. You're right, Jorge. You make him pay for it the next time you're up, okay? As Petrielle pointed out, we've seen more catchers just playing more and just racking up more play appearances and more games.

And that does not seem to be a coincidence. It seems to be. So Cal's hitting a double, motoring around to second. Perhaps his lower half has been spared somewhat by the shift in catching mechanics. Okay. Point is, Terrick Scoopal is one year away from free agency. He is the Seattle University pitcher. And there's a lot of speculation about what will happen with him.

A lot of hot stove talk. Will there be an extension? If there's not an extension, will the tigers consider trading him? Could they do such a thing coming off what seems to be? presumably back-to-back Sy Young Awards. And if not, if they can't sign him, he is, of course, a Scott Boris client. Then what does that mean for the Tigers and their staff? What does that mean for, you know, do they deal him mid-season next year?

Do they just ride it out? So there's been a bit of reporting about that John Heyman writing about a Boris client. First time that's ever happened. But he wrote something for the post about how scoble the baseline for him is 400 million, and then there was a report from Evan Petzold of the Detroit Free Press that the Tigers did make an extension offer for him after last offseason, which was for four years and under 100 million, which sounds preposterous, of course. But that was after the first excellent Cy Young season. And also, he had two more years of arbitration remaining at that stage.

So those numbers for ARB eligible or pre-ARB eligible players always seem low on the face of them because it's not the going rate, the market rate for free agents, but it shouldn't be, and it wouldn't be at that point. So I haven't really crunched the numbers, but yeah, that sounds low, but it's not like wildly low because of where he was and what he had accomplished to that point. But now one season away from free agency with another season, fantastic season, maybe even better season under his belt, Yeah, he's in line to completely break the bank here and probably set a record for a pitcher contract. I guess the comp is Garrett Cole, who was around the same age, I suppose. Terrick's goopal will turn 29 next month, so he will be 30 if he were to hit free agency next offseason. I think Cole was maybe 29 still when he was a free agent.

But, you know, he got, what, $324 million, and then Yamamoto got $325. That was a whole different arrangement and different age and everything. But those are the upper bounds for pitchers. And the question is, post-O-Tani deal, who is partly a pitcher, of course, Otani, and Soto deal, now that we've seen these stratospheric totals, how high can a contract go for a pitcher, given how breakable pitchers are, even if they're the best and pretty dependable to. this point. And, you know, we saw the crochet extension. So these are the things that will be sort of setting the market. And I'd imagine that Detroit will want to approach him and we'll want to talk to him. But, you know, it's not going to be a discount situation in all likelihood with Scott Boris. So Scoopal has them where he wants them. You know, maybe he wants

to be there too, but they need him, obviously. And they should be as motivated as anyone to sign him and keep him there. So I would hate to see this offseason be dominated by Terrick Skuple trade rumors. I would avoid that at all costs, whatever it costs to sign Terik Skuple. Like, you got to keep him. And if you can't extend him, then I think you have to ride it out with him. Even if you might just lose him, aside from the draft pick compensation, I don't know. It depends where the tigers are at midseason next year and what sort of season he's having, of course.

And it's tough because, you know, you trade Terrick Scooples. You could get an enormous wealth of prospects, of course. But what sort of message would that send to your fan base coming out of the rebuild and trying to build on that? I just don't imagine it likely to be something that they're looking to do. Like, this should be, I know that they swooned late and all of that. And it's not like they don't have work to do to bolster the roster, but I don't think there's any reason to think they won't be a competitive club next year, right?

Like, I agree with you. I think that you try to get something done, but the thing about it is, even if you can't, if you're a competitive team, you just get to enjoy the services of, like, one of the best handful of pitchers in baseball. So that seems fine, you know? Yeah. That seems fine. I just don't imagine that that's likely to be a priority for them. Like, I don't know you'd have to be, you'd have to be just blown away. and it would be a difficult needle to thread because you are trying to be a competitive club

and so you would need either impact big league pieces or near ready big league players who you think are going to sustain your club for years to come. I just think that the specific ask given where they are in their own competitive cycle makes it just a really thorny one to do in a way that wouldn't just be – inspire people to burn down your ballpark, you know, like, so I would be really shocked. I'd be really shocked. Yes, yeah. And I will be curious to see how high the ceiling can go for a pitcher, provided he has another strong season and is healthy and all the rest of it. Who could be better, who could be more appealing? The MLB trade rumors poll results, there was a post should the

tigers consider a Terrick scuble trade. And no, one, but only like 55 to 45 or so. So I don't know if that's just a... This is GM brain. Yeah, that's basically what it is. It's like a terminal case of GM brain. Being fantasy baseball pilled or whatever it is, maybe. You don't have to do that.

Or buying into the whole like, oh, we can't afford to keep our players. Like, you know, only the Dodgers can sign someone, basically. And I know that they're not running a payroll that's like the Dodgers. And, you know, they've, their willingness to spend absente. and flows, I think it's going to be more restrained and more strategic. But it's, even this version of eulage ownership has been willing to put money into that payroll. I don't know that they've always picked the right guys to do it, but like they've been willing to put money into that payroll. They should put maybe more in. Yeah, I'd like to see them be a little more active and

aggressive than they were last offseason and at the trade deadline this year. But they should, I mean, They're as motivated as anyone to have Territ's Google. They have some payroll room competitively speaking. They need him. They're coming out of a down cycle. This would be a big moment to step up and say, yes, we can be players for this sort of superstar. It's also just, here's the state of Tiger's payroll after this year.

Cobb is free agent, Glabour's a free agent, Rafael Montero, Tommy Canley, Chris Paddock, Kyle Finnegan, you have Seawald with a mutual option, which I'm sure they'll decline. Flaherty has a player option, which he will probably, oh, oh, little Leo Rivas, holy Moses. Okay. Look, you're not forgiven, but like that is, you're doing the work. You're doing the work to be forgiven. What a nifty little play that was. Are you watching this game? Yeah, yeah. With a little less personal investment than you are, but yes. Oh, look at that. He is, he is we, you know, and you do root. Yeah. Luis is like,

where was that on yesterday um flarity i imagine will exercise his player option which i think they'll probably be fine with and then you have a bunch of arb guys like this they they it would be bonkers to they have right now their pay their estimated um luxury tax payroll and granted that is before like you know Riley green is about to hit arb for the first time and torque and you know they have i mean scubel is going to make some i bet terk scubble is going to make some good money on arbitration. But, you know, like, this isn't a particularly expensive roster, is my point. And they have room to maneuver, and they have very little on deck after 2026.

Like, even Baez will be in his final, the final year of that contract in 2027. Like, they are going to have room to maneuver if they want to. I can't get over that little Leo Ria loss catch, you know? I did see a post on Reddit, which was the latest email exchange or purported email exchange with Rocky's owner Dick Monfort, where someone wrote to Montfort and suggested trading for Terrick Scouble. And Dick Montfort responded, I assume this is legitimate, but allegedly, yeah, you know, maybe there's kind of a meme format aspect of this. But he does legitimately answer fan emails, so it may very well be real. And the response here is, thanks, Kevin. We'll see what happens.

So, you know, keeping the options open. Maybe one of these GMs that Dick Monfort is interviewing will pony up and trade for Terrick Scoobel. Do you think that the commissioner would let that trade go through? Just keep him out of the hands of this organization. I think that he might step in. I think it would be bad for baseball. Scoobel in Colorado, that's bad for baseball. I think that it would require intervention.

If anyone is altitude proof, it's terrible. I mean, like, here's the hilarious thing. Yeah. They don't have the guys. No. They don't have the guys. Of course not. Like, no.

They don't have the guys. It's, it's trolling, I think, to some extent. I mean, good natured trolling. And, you know, it's like the up deck line about Ted Williams. God does not answer letters. Dick Montfort does. He will pretty reliably answer emails, which is amusing, to say the least. It's maybe the...

He believes that you are talking to me about a hypothetical Terrick Scoobel trade to keep me from watching this game with my full attention. That is, I mean, I understand it is not your fault. I don't think that you are, you're not trolling me. You're not punking me. And my meetings going along is why we are podcasting at the time that we are. So it's like, this is entirely my own doing. But it is, I just want us to step back and think about the fact that you're like, no, we need to talk about a Terik's Google trade that will never happen. Yeah. No, probably not. It shouldn't happen this winter, at least. If the tiger's late season scuffles continue and they're out of it, well, we've seen them appear to be out of it at a trade deadline and then end up not out of it.

But if everything goes wrong for them early next season and they're way out of it and they have made a competitive offer, a really sincere, good appealing offer to Terrick's Guble and have been rebuffed. Only under those circumstances would I say, well, All right, I guess get what you can for Terrick Scoobel as a rental post-all Starbreaker post-trade deadline. And, you know, there's always the option that you could bid for his services in free agency, of course. Right. You are allowed to try to re-sign players even once they've hit the free agent market is one of the funny things about them. Yes. Okay. I will let you stop talking about Terik Scoobble and focus fully on the Mariners. I'm not sure if that's considerate of me or not, whether I should actually keep you talking.

I don't know. might actually be better for you, but I don't know. I don't know. But I do know two things. One is that at some point during our live stream, I will want to consume an adult beverage. And in order for that to be a good choice and not a self-destructive choice as a 39-year-old, I need to eat something. And so I should go so that I can have a little nash before. You can start the sake whenever you feel like it. But yes, by all means. I'm out of sake. Maybe that's the thing, though.

But, I mean, I have beer in the fridge. That's why the Mariners' fortunes have soured. You have run out of sake. Well, I had, but I had, well, on Wednesday, I didn't drink anything during that game. Did I? I don't remember. I definitely did on Thursday, and then they lost. And I still had sake.

So what do you make of that? Humpy, you know, damned if you do, damned if you don't. No, I think he needs to die. Like, I'm sorry. He needs to die. It's not his fault. And again, it will be a sacrifice because we love Humpy. But I do worry that he needs to die.

Randy, stop swinging at that stupid slider. I wish you the best. I will talk to you again soon. And we will talk to everyone else a little later. Well, editor and producer Shane McKeon joined a portion of our Patreon live stream. And here's how he described the end of the episode you just listened to. I just finished editing tonight, tomorrow's episode. Sorry.

It's a real interesting time just because it was recorded immediately before the Mariners game started. So the last half hour, Ben is talking about whether the Tigers will trade scuba to the Rockies and Megis watching the Mariners. Mariners game and just slowly, slowly losing it. It's really unlike anything I've ever heard broadcast before. I think we're really breaking new ground. Not inaccurate. I cut off the recording of 2389. Immediately before Meg's mood improved because Eugenio Suarez hit a home run,

it would not be his last home run on the night, nor would he be the only hitter to go deep multiple times. Now, the Mariners were losing by the time we started, our Patreon live stream when the NLCS game started. And I hope our Patreon supporters won't mind if we play a few snippets, a small percentage of our almost three-hour stream. But within the first 20 minutes or so of that stream, the Mariners' fortunes, and thus Meg's mood improved considerably.

Because first, Cal Raleigh hit a homer. This is the way we reacted. Now you all know where we are, roughly. We'll issue reminders every now and then, or you'll be able to tell based on our reactions. What? Speaking of reactions. Did you get it?

Oh! Hot diggedy dog. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Oh, cow. You beautiful, man. I'm so sorry if I was really loud. I'm so sorry if I was really loud. Less loud that I expected, of anything. Oh, well, I'm trying to, you know, I am a professional. And then, not long after, Suarez went deep. deep again.

And I can't. Did he get it? Did he get all of it? Did he get all of it? There goes. There goes. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

Wow. Things have really looked up for you and your team since this live stream started. I was like. We are the new, the new Humpty, the new Etsy witch. That one was a grand slam. And it put the Mariners. one win away from an unprecedented pennant. Mariners won, Humpty lost.

Meg still stood by her demand that Humpty be sacrificed. Of course, there was another game going on at the time. A game in which Shohei Otani hit one home run, which elicited these sounds from my mouth. Oh! Ooh! Wow. Not long after that, I mused. Because he's been struggling so much at the plate, if he does just have himself a day here

and he's off to a good start with a Homer and a walk and a couple scoreless innings It would be pretty cool if he could just get rid of the postseason struggles all at once in one game on both sides of the ball. And then he hit a second home run. Oh, my goodness. I'm still looking at home run. Oh, my God. Did that leave the stadium? Oh, my God.

Wow. Holy. Wow. Well, Ben, you wanted a signature game, and I think you got one. We're 69. Wow. Geez. Wow.

Goodness me. And finally, he hit a third, by which time we had been joined by Craig Goldstein of Baseball Perspectus. I saw it. Oh, my God. I saw it. There is.

Jesus. Oh, my God. Oh, wow. What a cool thing. Oh, I'm sorry to, I'm sorry to any Brewers fans listening, but oh, what a cool. thing, man.

This is ridiculous. Like, 99 down and in and he put it out to center left. Wow. That's so messed up. That's fucking great. So yeah, it was quite a night to be live streaming when Otani had his signature game or his latest signature game. What even is the Otani game at this point?

Is it the WBC final? Is it the 50-50 game? Is it this one? Three dingers, a walk? and six scoreless innings on the mound with 10 strikeouts, doesn't get much better than that, unless maybe it were in the World Series or in a closer series. I'm happy that we happened to be streaming on that night

so that we could capture for posterity our real-time reactions to both the Mariners' comeback and Meg's resulting exuberance and our awe at watching that display from Otani. Those are not the normal noises we emit on the podcast proper. The Dodgers clinch a pennant in Otani checks off another box on his career bingo card, a legendary postseason game, arguably the best single game postseason performance. And when we couldn't get from him last year when he was not pitching, the NLCS MVP, for all intents and purposes, based on his performance in a single game. And yeah, you know what? Fair.

In that game, Otani basically beat the Brewers by himself, single-handed, except that he used both of his hands. He throws right. He bats left. He beats the Brewers both ways. One more live string to come. Next Friday, World Series Game 1. Shohay Otani will be playing again. Not sure we can guarantee the same fireworks on that stream. But hey, sign up, join us, find out. And you know, as mad as you might be, that Shohayotani joined the bullies of baseball, the sports supervillains, the Dodgers.

We do get more moments like that, because that was what we were lacking. With the exception of that WBC standout moment, we didn't get to see Shohayotani on the stage when he was with the Angels. He could have had a whole career like Mike Trout, where we were deprived of October Otani. And at least this way, we get to see the best player being the best at the biggest moment, which in isolation is good for baseball. Whether it's good that it's accompanied by such Dodgers' dominance, well, that's a separate conversation, which we have had and we'll have again. But man, rarely have my wildest dreams been fulfilled more than they have by Shohei Otani's

career. I feel bad for the Brewers and the Blue Jays, but this is tremendous content. If you'd like to help us keep making tremendous content here at Effectively Wild, you can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash Effectively Wild, as have the following five listeners who have already signed up to pled some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay ad-free and get themselves access to some perks, Lee, Josh Romans, Donovan, Ila Findley, and Adam Bradley, thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include, well, access to the aforementioned playoff live streams, monthly bonus episodes, Potential podcast appearances, personalized messages, prioritized email answers, discounts on merch and ad-free fan graphs memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings at patreon.com slash EffectivelyWild. If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email.

Send your questions, comments, intro, and outro themes to podcast at Fangraphs.com. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube music, and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild. You can find the Effectively Wild sub-edit at our slash Effectively Wild, and you can check the show notes at Fangraphs through the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance and accompanying us on our live stream.

Thanks to all of you for listening. That will do it for today and for this week. We hope you have a wonderful weekend, and we will be back to talk to you early next week. When I'm riding the buds or going for a walk From strap on my head will then listen to people talk I want to hear about baseball with nuance and puffian stats Yeah, yeah Don't hear about pitcher wins or about gambling eyes

All they want to hear about might chat have platicles And the texture of the hair on the arm going out of one's head Gross, gross. Give me, give me a fact to be wild. Give me, give me, give me a factory wild. Give me, give me, give me a fact to be wild. This is a fact to be wild.