Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 244: Thoughts on the Home Run Derby and the All-Star Game/The Real Home Run Record

Episode Date: July 16, 2013

Ben and Sam talk about the Home Run Derby and the All-Star Game, then discuss Chris Davis’ comments about the home run record.

Good morning and welcome to episode 244 of Effectively Wild, the daily podcast from BaseballPerspectives.com. I'm Sam Miller with Ben Lindberg. Ben, did you watch the Home Run Derby? Can't say that I did. I watched some highlights of the Home Run Derby, which seems to me to be a better way to consume it. of the home run derby, which seems to me to be a better way to consume it. I don't know that I agree with that. You like all the weight? No, no, no, no.

I don't like anything. I don't like anything about it. But I would say that the suspense is more interesting to me than the home runs themselves. is more interesting to me than the home runs themselves. To me, seeing the avoidance of an out is somewhat interesting. And there's a clock essentially involved in terms of the number of pitches, and when you're only seeing highlights, every swing is a home run.

It's kind of boring to see every swing be a home run. There might be two home runs that were hit that i would find aesthetically interesting enough that i would want to see them in highlights but otherwise i pretty much know what the highlight is going to be it's just so long oh yeah no it's so long super long they yeah that's true they they it would be great if they could sort of red zone it so that there's only – there's no breaks, you know, that you don't have to deal with the breaks. I don't know. What are we – who cares?

There's some using stuff during the breaks sometimes, I guess. Then what are you complaining about? Am I? I'm not complaining. I'm just not watching. You've got hot, exciting home run derby action punctuated by breaks where some exciting things are happening. Yeah.

Sounds great. A lot of Berman. So this guy, Matthew, emailed us a question about the All-Star Game or a suggestion for how to fix it. And it's not email Wednesday, but I just wanted to get your thoughts. I wanted to see if you have any fixes for the All-Star Game since Tuesday is the All-Star game. So he suggests that the All-Star game is often made up of a lot of guys who are great offensively but merely competent at the positions. Instead, I propose that there

should be nine DHs with a restriction, a fun restriction, that no one is allowed to play both. They must either field or hit. It would allow us to appreciate the players who dominate their positions while still allowing offensive guys that everyone seems to love so much to show their stuff. Makes for some fun decisions. Do you have Yachty or Molina catch? Or since he's been hitting so well, do you hand that job over to Luke Roy? I think that's a fun question.

I mean, a fun solution. I'd be into that. But I just wonder, do you have a fix for the All-Star game? I feel like the appeal of the All-Star game when it started was that you would get to see these players that you didn't get to see very often. And I don't think there's a way to fix the fact that that concept doesn't really hold that much appeal anymore. I do.

I mean, I don't know. I think it's a good thing. I'm glad there's an all-star game. I think there are a lot of casual fans who will tune in to watch the all-star game and are quite happy with the all-star game. But for someone who watches baseball often and can tune into any game at any time and see any player and see interleague play all the time so that you can see every team even if you just watch and root for one team you still see just about everyone nowadays uh i don't know it doesn't seem to me that there's a way to restore the appeal or the mystique that it once had no probably not to restore that level of appeal and mystique i

think the the big thing is that uh not as much i agree with what you're saying about not uh about no longer having players that you haven't seen but also there was something about seeing uh guys face off who would never face off the league the league differential was actually a real thing once upon a time. Guys didn't change teams as much and there was no interleague, of course. And so my suggestion, my solution is that you get rid of this false idea that there is still a significant difference between American and nationally. That there is no competitive urgency between those two leagues. It's pointless to put them against each other and act like it's special. So I would have a major league roster and a futures game roster. Instead of having the

futures game, you would have basically major leaguers play the phenoms of the day, because they don't get to face each other. And you would love to see Byron Buxton facing off against Clayton Kershaw right now. I mean, probably he would get crushed. They probably would get crushed. But it's baseball. So I would guess that the Futures team would win every fourth or fifth time. And to me, that would be interesting. That would be new.

It would be matchups that you wouldn't get to see. It would be players that you don't get to see. And it would be hot, sexy names that Major League Baseball would get to sort of start branding really early. it would probably be more lopsided than you're saying i don't think the the future team would win for you know four or five every four or five years i think probably it would be pretty rare to see them win i think it's a pretty big talent i mean they're guys in a ball uh and we're talking about the best players in baseball playing those players yeah i don't don't know, though. I guess I'm sort of just thinking about what the WBC is like. And I don't know how often the upsets happen, but it seems like they happen, and it seems like the gap between the Netherlands and the U.S. has to be pretty close, maybe bigger.

I mean, I guess the thing is that the U.S. is not a true all-star team because not everybody plays, and it's thing is that the U.S. is not a true all-star team because not everybody plays. And it's distributed a bit around the other countries. But, I mean, that's a pretty big gap and you still see a reasonable level of competition. But, yeah, it probably wouldn't be. Maybe one in five is a bit much, but I bet you'd see, you know, a good baseball game every three years. Yeah, and that would be exciting. I'd love to see a close game between those

two teams. I mean, imagine how into it the Futures game team would be. Oh, my gosh. They'd be the most motivated. Just frantic. Yeah, that'd be pretty great. And I guess probably the All-Stars would be motivated not to lose to minor leaguers,

I would think. I don't know. Probably less so. Yeah, my big concern is that the All-Stars would actually have no motivation at all, and it would be like a fun thing where they're playing a bunch of kids, and they would actually really go easy. That would be my fear, is that you would have to figure out a way to incentivize them if it didn't happen naturally. But so resolved. them if it didn't happen naturally but uh so resolved this is yeah it's uh you know the power of we will see how powerful we are i think i think this the day uh before the all-star game the day

of the home run derby when all the players are available to the media is the day during the season when the most content is produced that the fewest people want to consume. I think there's so much written, almost identical stories, really, for every team and every player, almost, because the players are there kind of to just say that they're honored to be at the game, and it's great great and they grew up watching all-star games and now they're in them and all these nice things and not many very controversial or interesting things are said but there are just hundreds of people there transcribing those quotes and having to write something about them so you end up with just like a hundred stories about how every single

member of the team is is interested in or is is you know honored to be there uh i can't think of a day during the season when so many similar stories are produced with i guess uh so little intrigue good point good point i don't know if it was uh but i i had a weird day because I was at FanFest, and I thought I was going to be on a panel with Dave Raymond, the Astros radio guy, former Astros radio guy, former other teams radio guy. Yeah, he's great, and I was, but it was also just a completely player-filled panel. So it was just like several players and me.

I've never felt more initially. This is you and Jeff Nelson. I think that's tomorrow. So this turned out to be me and Mark McLemore and Marlon Anderson. And then people kept just stopping by. So Lou Brock would just stop by and then Doc Gooden would stop by and Howard Johnson would stop by and all the former players know each other. So they're all, you know, slapping each other on the back and reminiscing about old times and telling stories about their playing days. And I'm just sitting there being me.

Did you get to say anything? Yeah, I sat there awkwardly for a few minutes, and then I felt like if I didn't say something, I would just feel more and more awkward the whole time. And eventually it would be awful, so I had to start talking. So I did, and I just kind of chimed in whenever I could. And I don't know, I guess I asked some okay things. And there was a time when we kind of talked about stats

and sort of had the usual kind of stat nerd talking to players, discussions about things and having slightly different opinions and all getting along in the end um so that was that was good that was it was definitely one of those surreal uh covering baseball moments that you have from time to time when you kind of wonder how you how you got there what you're doing there um have you had any have you had any moments like that covering baseball where you you suddenly realized that you were doing the thing that you were doing and wondered how it happened nope not even the moment when i when i suggested that we do a podcast you didn't pinch yourself uh you actually suggested that even before you hired me yeah that's how eager i was and you

so i knew you still took the job so you pretty desperate to this yeah i was pretty desperate at the time uh so i i knew it was coming yeah um did you want to talk about something else sure okay what about you uh i guess. Sure. All right. What do you want to talk about, Ben? I was just going to talk. I was reading a story that Dorkay Hurst wrote about his minor league all-star experiences and how he kind of had a nightmare one where I think it was 2004. He went to some lower level all-star game and he really, really didn't want to go.

And he was looking forward to having a few days off or, you know, seeing his girlfriend and just getting away from baseball for a few days. And the organization kind of threatened or guilted or coerced him into going, basically sort of, you know, saying what an honor it was and how much they wanted him to go and sort of implying that there could be repercussions if he didn't. And he was just, you know, so so scared about what those repercussions could be that that he went fearing that if he didn't go, they would, you know, punish him by not promoting him or something. So he went and had an awful experience and he really regretted it. And then when he had another chance to do it in AAA a few years later, he got the same sort of strong arm treatment from his team, but he didn't go. So I guess I was wondering, if you're a fan of a team would you want to see your players go to the All-Star game?

Or would you want to see them have a little time off? At the Major League level? Yeah, at the Major League level. And does it matter whether it's a hitter or a pitcher? Does that make any difference? Because I don't know. It seems like if you're a fan of a team, I guess if you're a fan of an unsuccessful team, I guess you kind of want to see representatives on the team, maybe, just because you don't

have a lot of other things to root for. because you don't have a lot of other things to root for. And I guess there are benefits, I suppose, to promoting the team and promoting the player and selling some all-star merchandise and just getting the team's name out there and all those things. But I wonder whether you would just kind of rather have your player go and sit on a beach or go see his family and take a few days off and not have to fly across the country and talk to a bunch of reporters and, you know, do the whole the whole all star act. Yeah, unless you think that sort of I mean, probably for a lot of these guys, it probably doesn't mean all that much to them because they've done it before. For some guys, it might be some sort of positive reinforcement,

letting them know mentally, thinking of themselves as all-stars, thinking of themselves as leaders and a select group might be useful. I mean, I would say that as a fan of the team i don't really uh i mean i don't i don't care too much about seeing them in the all-star game i don't get any thrill out of seeing them in the all-star game but i mean what like everybody can't do that like i like we gotta guys gotta some someone's gotta go and it just feels like if you're the team that lets its players not go or if you're the player that doesn't go while everybody else does it just feels like bad manners i mean we still are part of a you know we still are part of a culture in a community we you know i think we owe it to

everybody to kind of behave in the way that's the best for the group uh a lot of the time so um i mean probably there's some small benefit to having three days off for most of these guys. I mean, you certainly hear some of the veterans say as much after they've been a few years. And, you know, I mean, I respect that and all. But I mean, you know, just I think you just have to do it. There's all sorts of things that, like, I would be better if I didn't do. Like, I would be a better worker if I didn't take care of my daughter. You know, I'd be more relaxed if I just left her somewhere, you know? But you don't do that.

Like, that's basically the same thing. Not going to the All-Star Game is like abandoning your child at a grocery store. I just couldn't think of a really comparable example offhand, but I mean, you do all sorts of things because they're polite, they're manners. It's like etiquette is what helps the world go around. It just seems like good etiquette. When somebody asks you to do something, you know, like when you're on the, okay, so here's maybe a better example. When radio station that I've never heard of from Indiana calls and says, can you do a show, a hit tonight? Well, I don't get any thrill out of being on a radio station that I'm not going to hear

and that nobody I know has heard. There's probably some slight benefit to BP, slight, slight, right? But, you know, probably not really. And if you're ESPN, there's probably none. Like if you're Keith Law, there's no benefit to it. You don't get paid. You don't really get any recognition. And, you know, you say it's 15 minutes.

You spend 15 minutes beforehand being nervous about it and wondering what they're going to ask. And then you spend five minutes after trying to get back into whatever you were doing before. So you're getting paid to produce things for a company, and this is not that. This is a thing that takes you out of that. But I think that whenever they call me, almost without fail, I say yes because it's etiquette, right? Somebody's got to do these things. So if you were a manager and, I don't know, let's say you have a pitcher who's been worked hard maybe and you're worried about him breaking down in the second half or getting dead arm or something, and you have an opportunity to switch rotation spots around

so that he pitches in that last game before the All-Star game and isn't eligible to appear in the All-Star game, and so he gets that day off and he doesn't pitch an inning or two that he would have pitched otherwise, would you then feel bound not to do that? Yeah, I wouldn't do that. I mean, I don't begrudge managers to do, but I think that it's somewhat rude. Well, yeah, I guess that's true.

I mean, probably we could think of many other ways in which managers are rude when they're trying to win games or when teams are. To me, it's much more of an issue for position players actually rather than pitchers. I think that pitchers are just throwing an inning and I imagine they're pretty good at bouncing back from that inning. Probably they're road you know they're pretty good at bouncing back from that anyway or something yeah but i mean i think for a position player that there's probably more of a of a day in day out grind that that you could really benefit from three days off um so i would think i would i would probably think a little bit more about it if i were a position player than a pitcher. Unless there's some benefit to not losing your timing or something by seeing live pitching.

Once. One time. By seeing live pitching once. Taking batting practice. Yeah. I don't know. It's probably not a big deal either way. Probably not.

Yeah. All right. Okay. My thing? Mm-hmm. Probably not, yeah. All right, my thing. So Chris Davis today said, you know what he said.

Everybody knows what he said, right? He said the thing about the 61. In his opinion, 61 is the true home run record, and he thinks that that's true for the majority of fans. And this was like, you know, there was an hour where everybody was expressing their mock disgust, or not mock, I guess, just disgust at Chris Davis. A lot of people I saw were making fun of Chris Davis, and I guess mocking disgust of Chris Davis. And I am very sympathetic to him, not because I agree. Uh, I think that, you know, in, in my mind, uh, Barry Bonds did something and I'm perfectly fine recognizing it. Um, but I don't

see, I think that what a lot of people were reacting to is the same thing that you react to when, like if the league jumps in and starts talking about this sort of thing i don't think it's the league's role to to change the records or to put asterisks on things or to you know deny that certain things have happened i think that i was on record as being something against the melky cabrera thing the batting title thing um but to me it feels different when it's just chris davis saying what is significant to him as a player. And that's really all he was saying. I mean, you could maybe say that he was also propping himself up and putting himself above, you know, Bonds, etc., if he does get to 61.

But, I mean, you know, he's basically just saying, like, what is significant to him. And to him, maybe it's a bigger accomplishment. Or I's uh it maybe it's a bigger accomplishment or i don't know if it's a bigger accomplishment it's maybe he thinks that uh you know what maris and and ruth did was you know more something to strive for than what uh bonds and and mcguire did and i'm perfectly okay with that and so then i started thinking about this in relation to the no hitters which we've been talking about it seems like incessantly and why we're just not that into them and i was trying to think about what the strongest argument for the no hitters would be like it like what somebody would tell me that might actually convince me and you know i think

that what it is is that the no hitter whether or not it is what I deem to be the most impressive achievement a pitcher can do, the reason that they're fun is that the pitcher clearly cares a great deal. So you're watching a player who cares. And I think that's what we're responding to more than anything because all of this is just whatever. It's a billion games and none of them count. And so to see like this real emotion is what we respond to. And so whether it makes sense, if the pitcher puts a high value on it and you're watching the pitcher be nervous, you're watching the pitcher pitch through his nerves, you know, after a goal that in his mind is admirable, it seems perfectly legitimate to recognize that no-hitter and to really enjoy it and to get swept away by it. And I think the next time I see that no-hitter and to really enjoy it and to get swept away by it.

And I think the next time I see a no-hitter, I might get caught up in it a little bit more. And I think if Chris Davis hits 62 home runs, I think I'll be perfectly happy standing up and cheering for him and not caring whether or not it's the true record. So what do you think? Yeah, it doesn't particularly bother me. I mean, I think the record is the record.

I observe the record. I think we can acknowledge the circumstances under which the record was set, maybe. But, you know, it is still the record. And you're right. you know it is still the record and you're right if if there were some official measure taken to to you know correct that in some way I wouldn't support that I don't particularly mind if if Davis doesn't think of it that way and that is exactly how I feel about no hitters just the the pressure on the pitcher must be so incredibly intense in that moment that it then becomes interesting to me. I mean, you, you, uh, often talk about how shocked you are that pitchers are

able to pitch under, under regular circumstances. Um, and when you're throwing a no hitter and when you have an inning left to go, you're just intensely aware that the other team is extremely motivated to end that no-hitter. And millions of people are watching you or will be watching you at that moment. And I would just, I mean, just thinking of myself, I would just be so self-conscious at that moment, I feel like, that I would start doing things differently. I would, you know, my mechanics would just fall apart because I'd be thinking about making every pitch perfect and not screwing it up. And it is kind of amazing that that doesn't happen to a lot of pitchers. So I enjoy watching that. And it's interesting interesting one of the one of the things that was written in the the media availability period that i did enjoy greeting uh was at espn's sweet spot blog

and david schoenfeld uh went around and i guess asked a bunch of the players what they what they thought the record was what you know if they if they thought that Bonds was the real record holder. And he said it was just about unanimous, at least with the players he asked, that they do recognize that record and they recognize Bonds as the record holder. And I guess he had polled his readers, or ESPN had, and with over 38,000 votes, 73% said that Maris is the real home run champion. And I'm sort of surprised that, I guess that more of the players don't share that sentiment.

That kind of surprises me. Yeah, it doesn't shock me that fans would fall more on the Maris end of the spectrum than players, but the way that it's so lopsided in opposite directions is very unusual. Yeah, and I wonder what the percentage would have been in 1961 if people had been polled. Probably people were polled about whether they thought Ruther Maris was the real home run record holder. Unfiltered. Yeah, well, do some digging. You can keep talking, but I have one question.

Okay, last. This is changing the subject, and then I'm going to hang up. Okay. When you were watching the Home Run Derby highlights, did you by chance – my understanding from the Twitter is that there was one home run that was at least displayed as 541 feet. Did you see that? I didn't see that one. I saw some high 400s, and it seemed like they had instant distance readings this year. It was like – I didn't – either that was added in the highlights, or it seemed to be part of the live broadcast that when the home run would land in the stands, they would flash the distance right away, which seems like it would be tough to do accurately.

But I don't know exactly what method they were using there. But do you know who hit the one that was supposed to go on? Do you know who hit the one that was supposed to go on? It looks like Harper. I didn't see it, and it seemed like people were not really buying it. I just wondered if you saw it, if it was just a glitch or if it was— Yeah, I don't know. I saw one that Harper hit that was like 471, and it was far. I mean, nobody hits a 541.

Yeah. I mean, nobody's hit a ball within 65 feet of that this year. Yeah. Although I guess Prince hit one 483. But anyway, yeah, I mean, 541 the fence. I wonder whether the average home run distance is longer or shorter than actual home runs for those players hitting games. Because on one hand, you... Unfiltered.

You get a fat pitch and you're trying to hit a home run to the exclusion of all else, but you're also getting a pitch that's coming in much more slowly and I don't know maybe you're not as keyed up for it or something so yeah I wonder maybe

maybe that isn't unfiltered a raccoon just walked right past me okay I guess that's our cue I'm serious too alright cool see you tomorrow yeah listener email show so walked right past him. Okay, I guess that's our cue. I'm serious, too. All right, cool. See you tomorrow. Yeah, listener email show. So send us some at podcast at baseballperspectives.com.