Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2447: 1-2-3, WBC

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about corporate naming rights of spring training ballparks vs. MLB parks, and potential unwritten rules surrounding the challenge system, then (47:03) preview the World Baseball Classic with MLB.com’s Michael Clair, touching on the big and unsung stories of the WBC, whether the interest level will increase again, how often the WBC should be held, and more, as well as Michael’s WBC-inspired book, We Sacrifice Everything to Baseball. Audio intro: Ted O., “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio interstitial: Andy Ellison, “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio outro: Garrett Krohn, “Effectively Wild Theme” Link to list of spring training parks Link to list of MLB parks Link to Abreu challenge Link to Michael’s book Link to electrician vs. Ohtani Link to Michael’s pools preview Link to Michael on possible surprise teams Link to Michael on must-watch games Link to Michael on who will win Link to Kershaw clip Link to Ben on WBC injuries Link to Ben on demanding more WBCs Link to Ben on Team USA Link to UNP editor on EW Link to denied visa story Link to “yips” quote Link to politician baseball expressions  Sponsor Us on Patreon  Give a Gift Subscription  Email Us: [e-mail]  Effectively Wild Subreddit  Effectively Wild Wiki  Apple Podcasts Feed   Spotify Feed  YouTube Playlist  Facebook Group  Bluesky Account  Twitter Account  Get Our Merch! var SERVER_DATA = Object.assign(SERVER_DATA || {}); Source

Hosted by Ben Lindberghout show me. Hello and welcome to episode 2447 of Effectively Wild Baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of the Ringer, joined by Meg Rally of VanGraphs. Hello, Meg. Hello. Well, we will be joined in a little while by Michael Clare of MLB.com, who is about to have a new book out.

It's called We Sacrifice Everything to Baseball, How the Czech Republics, Underdogs became World Baseball Classic Heroes. So it's a WBC themed book. And Michael is in Japan to cover the WBC. And so we will be talking to him in even greater depth about Mets pitching prospect Ryan Lambert's raw egg consumption. We have called him from many time zones away. No, that's not true. Are you shocked? Are you scared that that's what we were actually doing? No, we're not. We're going to talk to him about the WBC, which seems... little shocked. I mean, wouldn't put it past me, but no, he will not be weighing in on that unless he decides to, of his own accord. We will be previewing the World Baseball Classic with him, since he is

on the scene to cover it. And since it starts soon, it starts, well, depending on where you are in the world, Wednesday night or Thursday, Thursday, where Michael will be, Wednesday night where I will be. So that's soon. So we'll talk about what we're looking forward to and what he's looking forward to and get you all ready for the WBC. It's just preview week, preview month, really, here at effectively well. Sometimes we're preview in the regular season. Sometimes we're previewing the WBC. Before we roll Michael on in here, just a couple quick banter topics.

I got curious about something, which already you're so afraid. That was a very foreboding. Uh-oh. Yeah, nothing good can come of that, I guess. I don't know that this will be of interest to anyone else, but I did get a be in my bonnet about spring training ballpark naming rights. I don't know if I could even call this. I mean, it could have been worse, right?

Than that, that seems fairly innocuous. But of all the things I could have been curious about. But I was curious about this because I realized that I don't really know the names of most of the spring training parks anymore. Oh. You probably do, at least in Arizona. In Arizona. Yeah, you go to them regularly. But they're more location-based.

I don't know if they have names above and beyond that. Right. Yes. So that's how I sometimes, well, they always have names of some sort. Well, sure. But do they have some kind of corporate sponsorship is what I wondered about? And my curiosity was sparked because I was reading something about Atlanta. and I don't even remember what it was,

but it mentioned that the ballpark where the Braves play in spring training is called Cool Today Park, which I thought was pretty nifty. Cool today park. It's where everything is cool. Cool today park. Cool today park.

Cool today park? Cool. Is there an implied question? Mark? I don't think there's, well, it's a fan grafts camel case style. It's just one word. So it's cool.

cool today. One. Yeah. Because if not for the formatting, you might have thought, oh, this isn't a corporate sponsorship at all. It's just a park where everything's cool today. Aspirational. Yeah. If you were extremely naive and unaware of everything, the state of professional sports, et cetera.

But when I saw this, I figured, okay, that has to be a corporate sponsorship. But I don't actually know what that is. What is cool today? I don't know. And I guess the point of the corporate sponsorship is. to get people to inquire about what it is, which is what I did. So I played right into their hands. And I suppose this whole segment on the podcast is really sort of playing right into their hands.

But cool today is a local air conditioning, heating, plumbing, and electrical services company, which makes sense. Yeah. I didn't know that, but I knew that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Seems safe to infer. Yeah. It was cool today.

But I was sort of charmed by that in a way. Just because it's local. Yeah. I'm not saying cool today is necessarily a mom and pop operation. I didn't really look deeply into it. You know, they signed a 20-year stadium naming rights deal, which is not the kind of thing that a corner store typically does. So I assume they're a company of some means.

But also, that would be kind of a low-budget big league sponsorship, like a local air conditioning, heating, plumbing, and electrical services company. Yeah, it's kind of quaint in a way, not as quaint as just not having corporate naming, but still, it's max of spring training somehow. Yes. Because spring training, compared to the big leagues, at least, it's kind of Bush League. I mean, you know, often their minor league parks, that double is spring training parks. And it's just, it's a little lower pressure and lower profile. And something about that just almost. charmed me because on my trips to spring training and I have not been recently, which is maybe one reason why I'm not familiar with that many of the names, I just know the locations, but it felt a little

bit in the way that many minor league parks do around the country. It just, you know, it feels like a little bit of a throwback. Not taking it to an extreme here, because everything is kind of corporatized, but still, relative to the big leagues, it feels just a little bit. smaller time because it is. It feels like a low budget sponsor because, comparatively speaking, I'm sure it is a low budget sponsor. Yeah, it's funny because like in, so in Arizona, the spring training facilities, they double as, I mean, the complex league is the minors, but like it's the lowest level of domestic affiliated ball rate. And so it's not like anyone's double a affiliate is here. And I haven't done spring training in Florida. So I'm not,

sure. But how many places double up in Florida? Yeah. Because in Arizona, not all of them do, but a lot of them do. And it seems like it removes the possibility of doing like what the

so the brewers, their spring training complex, which I just would say like, oh, we're going out to Maryvale. That's where it lives. Their spring training complex is American family fields of Phoenix. Right.

And it's like, you guys, you don't have to, like, you could, it doesn't have to be a Phoenix. Like, what are we, a franchise? What is it a franchise of naming rights? Ridiculous. But most of them can't do that, right? Because. Yeah, well, there could be confusion. Which American family field are we talking about?

The one in Milwaukee or the one in Phoenix. But that's, it's kind of, it's a package deal. It's like, hey, we're, we're covering all the, the Brewers parks where the big league brewers play. Sometimes at least. But I believe it's two parks double up in Florida in the Great Feast Week. Only two? Yeah. And in Arizona, it's five, I think, which I guess is maybe partly a product of just Florida. Being older, a lot of those locations, being just longer established maybe as a home of parks, etc. And I don't know, maybe it's other considerations too, not wanting to use as much water or something, right, to keep the grass growing. That's thoughtful of you.

That's such a nice thing to assume. You know, that's such a good thing to assume. All big companies care about conservation. Right. Environmental friendliness. But this did make me wonder just what the breakdown is in the big leagues compared to spring training. And I guess as you were saying, you're probably, you're getting most of the exposure value

during that month or so of spring training. Because if it's just a complex league park, like you're not really getting big crowds, right? So you're kind of getting or hoping you're getting your money is worth during a very small portion of the calendar. But I believe that 22 out of the 30 MLB parks, so 73.3% have corporate sponsors. So all of them except Angel Stadium, Dodger Stadium, Fenway, Kaufman, Nationals Park, Oriole Park at Camden Yards, Wrigley Field,

and Yankee Stadium. And among the spring training parks, so there are only 23 spring training parks because of the before mentioned double occupancy ones. Right. 12 of the 23 have sponsorship. So 52.2 percent, so a significantly lower percentage. And that accounts for 15 of the 30 teams. Probably don't need me to give you a percentage on 15 out of 30. But half of them, the teams and just.

a tad more than half of the ballpark. So it is less common for the spring training parks to have corporate sponsors, which probably makes some sense. And I perused the list to see how many of them fit the description of cool today. That kind of, oh, this is almost kind of charming to me, that it's just a local business promoting itself to local people. So here's the breakdown. You do have just some big old companies that you wouldn't really bat an eye about if they sponsored big league parks too. So, for example, the Red Sox play at JetBlue Park at Fenway South, which, come on. You can't try to squeeze the Fenway in there.

Like, you sold out. It's okay. Lots of teams do. And it's nice that you haven't sold out at the actual Fenway. But sticking at Fenway South there, you know, come on. I mean, maybe, I don't know. It depends on if fans actually refer to it as Fenway South ever, but I kind of doubt it. Fenway South.

I bet some fans do call it Fenway South. Maybe just so as not to give JetBlue the satisfaction. Yeah. But there are some other big companies. So as you mentioned, there's American Family Fields of Phoenix, right? So same sponsor of Phoenix. Yes. It's an important distinction.

Yeah, exactly. And then there's a Goodyear Ballpark, which is the Reds and the Guardians. Yes. That probably wouldn't look out of place if it were a big league park, I suppose. So there are some of those that fit into the, yeah, this doesn't sound Bush League. And I guess TD Ballpark, which is the Booghays Park in Dunedin, obviously banks, banks of a big big league park naming rights sponsor. So that would fit right in. But there are a few that I would say fit into the cool today category or come kind of close.

Yeah. So there's, you would appreciate being cool today where you live, I'm sure. It's a lot better today. But boy, boy, feeling nervous, Ben, making me feel very nervous. So we've got Baycare ballpark, which is where the Phillies play. Baycare? Baycare. Yeah, not daycare, Baycare, Baycare.

Baycare. Baycare is Baycare Health System, which is a nonprofit organization headquartered in Clearwater that operates 16 hospitals across Florida. And as of a couple years ago, it was the third largest hospital network in Florida. So it's not Bush League, but it's not big league either. I don't think Baycare is big league probably. They're not going to be sponsoring. Well, I mean, I guess no one sponsors Marwin's Park. Maybe they figured not enough people go. Well, that's not true. Now they have a sponsor. I kind of wish it were still Marlins Park. But no, it's, of course, Lone Depot Park, which we've made fun of before. Lone Depot park with the P in Park lowercase. That's how they style that shit. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was wrong. I was like, oh, this is a typo. This is a typo on the part of the writer who was referencing Lone Depot Park. And then I do my little fact-checking pass, Ben. And no, no. That's how they style it.

Abomination. Abomination. because the L is also lowercase. Yeah, Wikipedia does not comply with that, though it does note that is officially stylized as that. But we don't need to be obligated to observe that. But yes, it was Marlins Park until 2021. And it's been Lone Shark Park ever since or close to that.

So we had Baycare Park. Now, the Mets play at Clover Park. Yes. And when I first read that, I thought, oh, isn't that nice? pastoral, it's Clover Park. Oh, it's, it's so pretty and peaceful and spring like. And no, that's a corporate sponsor. I always think, do they get the full value of that if you could conceivably not even realize that it's a corporate sponsor? Because like, I wouldn't even necessarily look that up unless I were looking this up for some reason for a podcast, which I don't

know that I wouldn't even, probably doesn't even clear the stat blast bar, but whatever I'm engaged in here, If not for that, it might have just washed right over me, and I might not have even noticed. But no, this came about because the Mets had a strategic partnership with First Data to rename the ballpark first data field. But then First Data was acquired by FISAV, which then led to the ballpark being renamed Clover Park for FISAV's Clover Point of Sale platform. What? So, yeah. How many people really are being led to the Clover Point of Sale platform by Clover Park? I probably just wouldn't even think of that.

I think probably very few if you really forced me to guess. Look, I will say this. I'm of the opinion that if you can give me sort of plausible deniability that I am referencing a corporate entity, I'm going to appreciate it. Whether it originates point of sale, You know the other thing that people say that people are, people are being very casual with B2B on on podcast ads now. Oh, you need LinkedIn for B2B, which is business to business. No, I don't. Guess what? No, I don't. Also, if anyone ever is like, hey, Meg is ignoring my LinkedIn request. I guess I am in the sense that I'm ignoring LinkedIn, like as a platform and look at it every, I don't know, three to four months. So it's not you. Or at least it might not be you. It's mostly me forgetting that I have it. But we don't need to allow this B2B encroachment, okay?

No more B2B encouragement. I've been unable to log in to LinkedIn for years at this point. And every now and then, I don't know. Something like it doesn't let me log in. And then every now and then I actually want to see someone's LinkedIn because I just need to look up some info about them or something. And then I have to ask my wife to send me a screenshot of them. Because every time I'm like, this time I'm like, this time,

I'm actually going to log in and reset my password or whatever it is. And then I realized, no, it's just not worth the effort. I'll just ask Jesse. And that's what I've been doing for years at this point. So if you have messaged me on LinkedIn, I have definitely not seen it. Yeah, don't take it personally. Just like, but also, you know, maybe take the hint that I'm not actively updating it very much. But, but yeah, I think you should give people possible.

This was my argument at the time and I knew they weren't going to do it because of, well, in part because of the Tacoma Rainier. But I was of the opinion that Rainier Beer should be the presenting sponsor at what is now T-Mobile Park because then you could have called it like Rainier Field. And that would have been beautiful because of the mountain, you know, the mountain. But I think, and you might be saying to yourself, well, what? You're going to have your local logger be their own by An Hauser. Anheuser. Anheuser-Busch. There we go. I found it eventually. I worked my way into it. I just had to get a running start. But they have the resources. And you know what? If you have to rename your AAA affiliate, like, who gives even one boot about that? But no one listened to me. You know, I was like, you could have had the, you could have had a mountain as the, as like the neon logo above the stands. But they might not want that. They might want it to be glaring and garish and ostentatious because they,

You could still make stuff pink. You could still do pink if you wanted to, if you were like really committed to pink as a color. But no. So they went with T-Mobile, which is generic. And because T-Mobile does all of their like free MLV-TV stuff completely like under-specified. This is always my issue with so many of these corporate sponsorships. And why cool, cool today? Cool today is cool today.

Because that has specificity, you know. You wanted to have specificity. city. And this is why I think so many of the Cactus League ballparks are great, you know, in terms of their names, because it's like, you have, you know, you have Ho-Hocam and in Scottsill Stadium and Surprise Stadium and Tempe Diablo and Salt River Fields. And like, I know, I know where all that stuff is. Sloan Park. I don't know. I mean, I know where that is because it's like pretty close to my house. But you know what I end up just saying, oh, where are the Cubs playing today? Oh, they're in Mesa. That's what. what I end up saying, Ben. Oh, I've got to go to Mesa today. And I'm also charmed by the ones. There are still some relics of this that in spring training parks you have just a guy they're named after.

Yeah. Like the Orioles play at Ed Smith Stadium. That's great. Yeah, that's nice too. Yeah. That's beautiful. Ed Smith, he's a Sarasota civic leader who is instrumental in getting the new stadium built. I don't know that much about Ed Smith.

Don't care. But I like the fact that I don't know anything. that it's myth, and I don't necessarily need to. But it speaks to a certain time and place. There's a local flavor to it. Yes. And I appreciate that the personal touch, I guess, of it. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Yeah. Now, the Tigers, they forever played it at Joker Marchant Stadium. That's hard to say. Yeah. Well, so Joker Marchant was just a local guy and like the Parks and Rec Director. Oh, okay. I take it back. I want Joker to have his naming rights.

I love that, except that they're going with Publix Field at Joker Marchant Stadium. That doesn't work. No one is saying all those words. You can't have it both ways. You just can't. I guess I appreciate that they've preserved the local flavor and then everyone can kind of just ignore the Publix Field. Which is what everyone does. Probably, yeah, just because it's been Joker Marshall forever.

And Publix. It's a place. Yeah, well, that's a big chain, obviously. Like, depending on where you are in the country, you might not know Publix, but it's an employee owns supermarket chain. Well, no, they don't have them where I am, but it's... Well, you don't have them, but you know what it is. Yeah, I'm aware that it's a chain. It's headquartered in Lakeland, though, and, you know, they're 1,400 stores or something, just mostly all across the southeast.

But, yeah. But, yeah, it at least... It's a local business. I mean, it's also a big business, but it's headquartered locally. So there's a little local flavor, so that's good. And then there's some, you're right, there are some that are just extremely generic, and I very much appreciate how generic they are. Like the Rays play in Port Charlotte at Charlotte Sports Park.

Yep. That's just, it just says, it does what it says on the tin. It's extremely self-explanatory. I did consider, like, Charlotte Sports, is this actually a clandestine corporate sponsorship? Is that going to be, I don't know, sporting goods company or something? something in Charlotte, but I don't think it is. I think it's just a sports park in Charlotte, just like it says. And then, yeah, like a camelback ranch or just Peoria Sports Complex. Yeah. It's a sports complex in Peoria. And Scottsdale Stadium is a stadium in Scottsdale.

Surprise Stadium is a stadium in surprise. Peoria Sports Complex sounds as specific as any of the restaurants you will eat at in Peoria, which is to say, generic. Yes, it's true. Here's my issue with the Publix one, and I am going back to this. You can't say, oh, we're going to Publix. Because that makes you think you're going to the grocery store, not to the ballpark. Right. Just like if you're in Phoenix and you say, I'm going to American Family Fields, they might, someone might say, in Milwaukee. Why are you going all the way to Milwaukee? Unless you said at Phoenix or whatever it is.

Right. But you know. Oh, oh, in that case. Well, that makes more sense. You know what you would really say, though? I'm going to Maryville today. Well, that's the thing. There are some even big league parks. First of all, when I was doing the count of how many of them have the sponsorship and how many don't, I really had to take a second look because sometimes it just becomes so second nature to you. Right. It's so associated with that park that you don't even really think of it as a corporate sponsorship anymore. Yep. Coarse field. It's just, it's coarse. Like, I don't even think of the beer brand when I think of course. I think of, I think of, the ballpark. And when that persists for a very long time, it does become synonymous with the park to the extent that it becomes weirdly like you get attached to it, even though it's like

you might still think of. Safeco. Safeco, exactly. Right. And Safeco is not any more, I don't know, quinked or like connected to the, yeah. Like, is that any different substantively from T-Mobile? Not really, but it's just that it was, it was the first, it was especially if it's the first, like the park opens and it has that sponsorship already, then that's tough to overcome. And as we've discussed it, we don't have to be bound by these things. If you're an official rights holder, if you're affiliated with the team, then you might be bound by the legal agreement to describe something a certain way. But the rest of us, we can call it whatever. We can, back when there was a Coliseum, we, I mean, there still is, but back when the A's

played there. You didn't have to call it the Oco, whatever, ring central or, you know, you could just, it's the Colosseum. Right? Yeah. And I always think, I wonder, someone who knows about sports naming rights and the pricing thereof, I wonder

if that's priced in, if it's very easy to skirt the corporate sponsorship entirely. Like if people have been calling a place the Coliseum forever, and you know that they're just going to keep calling it the Coliseum, whatever it's officially called, then I wonder whether that leads to a lower price than if it's, I don't know,

like global life field or something. Right. Because Coliseum is distinctive. There aren't other Coliseums in MLB today. So you could just say Coliseum, but you can't just say field. Right. So you're kind of obligated to go with the corporate sponsorship just to be specific sometimes. So.

And then other times it can kind of, it's camouflaged. Because if you didn't know great American ballpark, you might just think that's a great American ballpark. You might not know that that's named after a company called Great American. Right. So sometimes or American family field, I guess you could even think, oh, it's warm and cozy and American families coming out to see baseball. What could be more American than that. Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know too much. But it could pass muster for a moment if you didn't know any better. It might not automatically trigger in you a thought of, oh, that must be a company of some sort. And then, so the Astros and the Nationals play at Cacti Park of the Palm Beaches. And when you see that, now. Relax. Relax. That doesn't immediately sound like it has to be a corporate sponsor.

You might just think cacti park. It's just a stint after cacti. Well, so it's the thing is the cacti, it's all caps. So that gives the game away. And it's, so in 2024, Travis Scott purchased the naming rights to the stadium to promote his cacti hard seltzer beverage. Wait. Yeah, it's cacti hard seltzer. Wait, wait, wait.

The rapper, Travis Scott. The rapper, I was just going to ask you. Yes, has a hard seltzer business. And. Travis Scott? I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I, wait, I'm sorry.

My brain is short-circuiting. I, wait. So Travis Scott's. Hard Seltzer Company has the naming rights for the Nationals? And the Astros, yeah, they double up. Yeah. Why? I guess it's paying off yet again in effectively wild podcast exposure.

But it's probably more about the Astros than the Nationals, right? Is he from Houston? I think he's from Houston, maybe. I guess it would be because of that. But you could just get the exposure wherever. So he is from Houston. So maybe, yeah, the Nationals just got thrown in for free. I don't know.

But yeah, so that's one that initially you might think, oh, it's just about a cactus, but no, it's not. It's about a rapper's hard seltzer brand. It specifies on Wikipedia, rapper and businessman. Well, sure, which is accurate because he has the hard seltzer line. Yeah. Probably a lot of other lines of investment, too. Okay. And then we also have Lecom Park.

I assume that's how it said, the Pirates, Lecombe Park. which is the Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine, which is the largest and most applied to medical school in the United States. So that's kind of a local one, not a tiny business, but it's in the area, at least. And Sloan Park, which I'm predisposed to, because it's the name of my favorite band and also my daughter. Sure, but it's not named after your daughter. No, it's not. It would be so weird if it was.

It was so weird if you, like, pulled up the Wikipedia and they're like, this is named it for Sloan Lindberg. No, I don't think the timeline matches up. No. Because I think Sloan Park predates Sloan Lindberg. But this was named after the Sloan Valve Company. Yeah. Which is, you know, that kind of feels small time. A valve company, it's kind of like on a radio broadcast when, unless you're hearing the same Apococo ad every time, you would hear like plumbers and pipeforks.

fitters union and stuff. But no, Sloan is big. I mean, you see it when you go to the toilet. Lots of times. Yeah, they make like all the, yeah, they make like a bunch of bathroom stuff. Yeah. And, and also they're from Chicago. So that's, or around thereabouts, which is why they're, they're sponsoring the Cubs Park too. They're hoping to get that residual Chicago area exposure. And then maybe lastly, this one I do find kind of charming. the Marlins and the Cardinals play at Roger Dean Chevrolet Stadium. And I like that just because what evokes the low-budget sponsorship more than a local car dealership. Yeah, that's adorable. You can see, that just conjures images of the ad with the athlete in a generic uniform because they don't have the rights to the logo.

Right, right. Right. So, yeah, that's, I like that. And it, everyone calls it Roger Dean, but they just, it's actually Roger Dean Chevrolet. But yeah. Yeah. That to me, that's very, because that's the difference right there, I guess. Like, maybe Chevrolet would sponsor a big league ballpark and it would just be Chevrolet Stadium or something. But Roger Dean Chevrolet. Yeah. I think that's, that's, yeah, that's good, I think. So that I think concludes my little tour of spring training ballparks and their names and their naming rights. And we have learned that it is a little less common for spring training parks to have corporate sponsors than it is for MLB parks. And also, they're a little lower budget, lower rent, though not universally. Wow. I'm glad you got obsessed with this because we didn't really have anything else to talk about today.

I have one other thing, which is, do you think that we will see some significant unwritten rules crop up around the challenge system? And I don't mean, yeah, I don't mean what we talked to Maxfield and Owen last week about the tactical considerations of when to challenge and when not to. I mean externally. I mean inter-team, more so than intra-team, unwritten rules. Yes. The intra team rules might actually be written, or if not written, at least passed down from on high, right? But I'm talking about things that will spark some sort of bad blood, some sort of dust up, perhaps benches clearing. Who knows? Will we see players get upset about something? And what sparked this thought in me? So was it last time we or last week we talked about, will you're a break? and his weird broken bat check swing.

Yeah, yeah. And now he has made more banter because he had, I don't know if you saw the video, I will share this on the show page and also with you, but he had a challenge that was just supremely confident. Okay. It was a three-two pitch. And so as we discussed with Owen and Maxfield's last week, that's higher leverage.

Obviously, that's going to make the difference perhaps between an out and a walk. And he was rung up on a what was a called strike initially. And he thought that's not a strike. And you could see from our vantage point. He was right. And it was a little high. And it was dragged down.

It was framed. And strike three was called. He was punched out. And immediately just cool as a cucumber, unflustered. He just gestured. And it's nice because in the past, this probably would have sparked some sort of blow up from Willi or Brayb. I mean, he would have, he might have objected.

He might have showed up the umpire and something. He might have protested. He might have yelled. He might have lingered at the plate. But now he has some recourse. And he can appeal. And he did. Just very calmly and no hesitation whatsoever.

Just tapped his helmet. And the key is that he started walking to first base before the outcome of the challenge was clear. He immediately. started mosying toward first base. And he was right. The ball, it was a ball. The pitch was a little high and this was overturned and he got his walk instead of his strikeout. So good for you, William Brayu. It was, it was close though. Tom Tango of MLB said it said it was under an inch high. I mean, it was really, it was just off the edge and the top really. Point six inches,

I think, distant from the strike zone. So his level of confidence maybe kind of outstripped exactly how confident he should have been, but I don't know, maybe he's going to turn out to be amazing challenges. Who knows? But what I wonder is, if we see something like this, do you think that someone will get upset about this, that he is taking the overturned for granted, essentially? And I don't know whether it'll be the umpire who feels like,

hey, you're showing me up, or whether just the act of challenging is essentially already, questioning the umpire such that it's not additional damage to the umpire's reputation for you to start ambling to first before the call comes in but i think it's it's a little bit of a show up right because you could it's a little bit of a show it is right so the umpire might be pissed but then also opposing players maybe like hey wait wait at the plate you're not entitled to that base yet so stick around until it turns out that you were not actually out and you are entitled to first base. And I don't know whether it's more likely to cause some sort of brouhaha

if the call is overturned or if it's upheld. Like, if it's upheld, then he's going to look silly. Right. And so I could see that being punishment enough, essentially. Like, we don't have to take matters into our own hands because the system, he's already ashamed now that he was so overconfident. Or, I don't know, maybe it could go the other way where, hey, this is even more of an affront that you took it for granted so that you were going to get the walk here when you weren't even entitled to it. So do you think that we will see at some point, some bitterness, some jawing, if not actual throwing pitches at people? Just some sort of drama will arise as a result of this. I think the answer to that is almost certainly yes. I am not sure if I know

exactly what its contours will be, though. I think that some of these things will probably fall very safely into the category of, like, they will cause a dust-up because of the circumstance of the broader game. So, like, any time you might imagine there being an unwritten rules controversy about, like, trying to pull off a double steal when you're a head-by-town runs or something like that. Like, that, I think challenging in circumstances where you have a a really pronounced run advantage where you're into territory whereby rule you can bring in a position player to pitch. I think that will ruffle feathers. And as I'm up to be announced, you can't challenge when a position player pitcher is pitching. Maybe to head off this sort of thing.

But a mop-up man's out there. Yeah. When you're up to the edge of when you might see a position player pitch, I think that will cause some consternation for folks, which like on the one hand, I understand, but on the other hand, like, those stats still count for the individual player. And so they have personal incentive for the call to be right, particularly if it's going to result in either a walk if you're the pitcher, although you're never going to see pitchers challenging, or strikeout in the case of the hitter. So, you know, I can appreciate why you would still want to do it, even if it might be, there might be some people who would view it as a little tacky, you know, you're piling on. So there's that part. I think umpires are going to get a little shirdy if you assume the challenge call. And in that circumstance, I actually think that, like, there's something to that, not because it's potentially wounding the pride or disregarding the pride of the umpire, but because, like, you know, in a circumstance like this, you might not really be legally entitled to that base.

until the call comes down, right? And so I think just kind of maybe by rule, it would be better etiquette to wait because you're not really supposed to advance. But maybe they'll take it in stride. Maybe I'm overestimating this because we do see players sort of assume the base in circumstances related to replay review.

And their ability to occupy the base might be pending the results of those replay reviews also. So, you know, I might be. assuming that they're going to be a little more easily wounded than the circumstance really allows her kind of a nerd to it at this point. But yeah, I'm sure that there's going to be, Ben, and you know it's going to be so dumb, whatever it is, it's going to be so dumb. I think that if I were a player, I would approach it in the same way that I would a bat flip, where you should feel, you should be really sure that it's going to go your way before you

react confidently because I think it's it's potentially embarrassing in sort of the same way if you're wrong. If you bat flip and you didn't actually hit it out, well, you look like a chump, don't you? And I don't have an issue with bat flips, but I have long held that if I were suddenly a big leaguer who could actually at some point hit a home run, which, you know, a lot of contingency in that sentence sort of front to back. But I would feel very nervous about bat flipping, not because I think it's tacky or morally wrong or necessarily showing up your opponent, although there are times when it is, but because I fear public embarrassment in a pretty profound way.

And if I pimped a home run that was, in fact, not one, I would need to go into witness protection. So, you know, but like these guys have to be more confident. just in general about probably everything, but especially their job performance than I am. Or it's really hard to stay there. There are exceptions to the rules, surely. But I think a lot of baseball players are pretty, they're pretty confident guys,

and it's sort of an occupational necessity that they be that way. Yeah, and we talked about the possible stress points within a clubhouse, if someone's bad at challenges and also uses them. very profligately and other people feel like, hey, you're wasting our challenges or a pitcher insists on challenging when everyone's been instructed that pitchers aren't that good at this.

Or I was thinking, or yeah, if it's just, you know, there's bad blood because only certain players have the privilege of being allowed, given the green light to challenge, or maybe it's a seniority thing, or something like that. But that's a little bit different. And I was thinking even,

well, what if someone steals a base and then you erase the stolen base with your challenge. But I don't think it even quite works that way most of the time because it doesn't overturn the result of the steel unless I guess it overturns the result of the plate appearance. But no, I don't think that actually comes into play really very much. If it's an inning ending, like strikeout it could, right? But you would be your – then it's the pitcher doing it to you.

It's not your own teammate. You're not going to challenge in that circumstance. if you're the batter. So, like, the number of ways in which it would really job you, I think, are pretty limited. So as you said, and I was talking to Patreon supporter and effectively wild wikikeeper, Raymond Chen about this. And he said something similar, which is just whatever unwritten rules exist now, substitute challenging in there and see if it fits. And I do think, yes, the lopsidedness of the score, if you're being blown out, maybe, if you're on the receiving end of the blowout, maybe you could get away with it. but if you're blowing out the other team and it's seen as piling on.

Yeah, I think people are going to find that to be kind of tacky. Yeah, both because, hey, let's get this over with. And also because you're running up the score, even if you're actually running up your stats, which probably every player can identify with the desire to do that. And yet, when it's happening against you, I do think one possibility is, let's say, you're challenging a full count strikeout

if a pitcher has a perfect game going. And you're trying to get the perfect game. undone by getting that strikeout change to a walk. That would be very much in the vein of the, are you allowed to bunt to break up a no-hitter, that kind of thing? So I could see that possibly annoying people. But other than that, yeah, I think the manner in which you challenge and your body language and your confidence and your swagger,

that could possibly provoke something in sight. I think that's right. bitterness. But beyond that, I don't think there are that many scenarios. But if, if others have ideas or suggestions, then by all means, write in and let us know. I guess, yeah, like maybe excessive challenging. What if you're just like challenging all the time and you're really good at it? That would just get super annoying. Because Sam Miller's theory of the case of unwritten rules is basically you're trying to discourage your opponent from doing something that is beneficial to them. Yep.

And so you want a stigma. You want to make it taboo so that they no longer get to do it against you. So if there's a team that is prolific when it comes to challenging and also effective, I guess, because if they're not effective, they can't be that prolific because they're just going to use up their challenges. Right. Then you might get upset about it. I don't know on what grounds exactly. Yeah.

Like if they keep challenging correctly, then how can you really fault them? But if they're doing it a whole lot and you just don't like that they're doing it a whole lot, maybe you would just be like, hey, cut it out. Let's just get the game moving or something. So I could see something like that. Cut it out. Hey. Yeah.

But this is going to happen in some way, shape, or form. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, please by all means, or like, I know if there's a challenge against their guy, then you respond with a challenge against their guy or something. But that doesn't even really make sense. It's not quite like the plunk for a plunk model. I agree with sort of the general spirit of our conversation around this with the oyster guys, which is that like it will take a beat to sort of have the optimal strategy proliferate down to the field level.

I think that there will be a very firm understanding rather quickly. of sort of the general best strategy available, but that it will take a minute for that to kind of get optimized in terms of how we see it manifest on the field. But I think teams are going to figure this out. You know, I think teams are going to figure this out. I think players are going to figure this out. I do think that we are underappreciating the number of guys

who just already know how to operate in this landscape and are going to be on big league rosters. Now, will they have the seniority to, like, put that expertise into practice, that'll be a team dynamic that every club has to sort out. But I really, I think it's going to be okay, you know? The most annoying challenge behavior, I think is going to get disincentivized pretty quickly because, you know, guys are going to want, guys want to get out of there, you know? If it's a blowout, guys want to go home too. The guys, they're ready to be done with a bad baseball. They're just like us. I mean, they're not, but they are. So I think it'll, I think it'll

sort itself out pretty quickly. And like I was going to say, the most annoying challenge behavior was the invocation of challenge when no challenge was available for recourse last year. We're not in that world anymore. You know, all of these, all of these umpires have had time to talk to God about how they feel about it. It's going to be okay. Yeah. So it might just come down to the Han Solo, don't get cocky kids framework of unwritten rules. Just, do it respectfully, I guess, because you're inherently kind of calling someone out just by challenging. So then do it in a way that minimizes their discomfort, maybe, or they'll get extra upset about it. I think it's much to smooth the way, you know, and there's nothing wrong with smoothing the way on this stuff.

But, like, it's an inherently adversarial kind of move. But I think that the availability of the challenge system is going to, in the long run, and this might take little while for it to do its thing. But I think it is going to reduce the general level of upset. Yeah. Because the thing that people get mad about or a big part of what they get mad about, if you're, you know, in this circumstance that we've been describing and you're a brayu, it's to your point, you would have lost it. You would have flipped your lid because you had been called out, but no, just kidding, you weren't called out. You were safe on first base. And guess what? You don't have to get shirdy with the umpire because you can just go a tap, tap, tap, and then confidently stroll.

And so I think it'll be okay. Well, we'll find out soon enough. But if there's one thing you can take to the bank, one of the banks that sponsors a ballpark possibly, it's that baseball players will find drama in every possible situation. Oh, yeah. They will develop unwritten rules, whether warranted or not, and most likely they won't be. All right, let's take a quick break, and we will talk to Michael Clare of MLB.com and the upcoming book, We Sacrifice Everything to Baseball about the World Baseball Classic. A baseball podcast, analytics instead from fan grabs.

Effectively, we are joined now by our pal Michael Clare, who writes for MLB.com and is currently in Japan. covering the World Baseball Classic and coming to us through the wonders of the speed of light with almost no perceptible delay. Hello, Michael, and thank you for joining us. Thank you guys. It's good to be talking to you. It's good to have this connection back to home. Yes, I know you've been gone so long.

I can tell you about what it's like back home. Not great, to be honest. Yeah, they delivered the Japan Times every morning to the, hotel room and no, no, it's not great. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about the baseball for now and for the moment, pretend that everything else is not happening. Exactly. Okay.

Well, you are about to be a published author. So congratulations. Your book is called We Sacrifice Everything to Baseball, How the Czech Republic's Amateur Underdogs became World Baseball Classic Heroes. It's out in less than a month. It's out on April 1st. in fact, did you have any misgivings about people thinking that this entire book project was some sort of April Fool's joke and that it is not actually a product that you can currently pre-order? Until I actually get the book in my hands, I'm still like 20% believing that this is a giant prank that the publisher pulled on me. So, you know, it's like when you're in middle school and like a girl calls you and it's like, oh, you've got to come to this party tomorrow night.

And you're like, I know there's not a party tomorrow night. I know this is a prank. So it feels a little like that. So until the books are in my hand and I actually see it, it's an April Fool's prank to me. I definitely would have known it was a prank if a girl called me in middle school because I went to an all-boy school. So if a girl had called me, it could only have been a wrong number. So that's a little bit about my life. Anyway, so you wrote a whole book about a WBC team.

obviously you are very into the WBC, and so are we. So tell us a little bit about the atmosphere, first of all, because I have not had the pleasure of attending a WBC event in person anywhere, let alone in Japan, which seems like the ideal place to do so. And that's what you're going to be doing for the next little while. So hype that up to us and tell us what you're looking forward to seeing in person. Yeah, so the atmosphere is incredible. I'm in Osaka right now for the exhibition games, and already these games feel like regular season games. I was at the Samurai Japan versus Orix Buffalo's game last night that ended on a runner thrown out at the plate with Samurai Japan trying to come back. But it was sold out. Everyone is in their seats early. They want

to see Otani. They want to try and get autographs, which he signs. You know, when he gets out here, he takes public BP. And, you know, you get this, even watching last night, it seems like he was taking some pretty big cuts because it feels like he wants to like do something for the fans here. And one thing that's really interesting is when Otani comes up in the States, when a big player comes up, you get this giant roar. But when he comes up, it's silent for a second because everyone's pulling out their phones and then the Owendon, the cheering squad starts playing and then it gets loud. So it's really kind of strange and you can't explain it. But no, everyone's really excited out here. You say Kukuchi pitched last night. It was his first time pitching in Japan for like

eight years. And he did the press conference last night. He said, you know, we had a lot of fun. He loved hearing, you know, the horns and the cheering. And you can't ask for a better baseball experience. Twenty, twenty, three, I was here and then in Miami. And, you know, those DR games, those, those Venezuela games, you, you just get the, the greatest baseball fan experience as possible because of all these different cultures coming together and celebrating the greatest sport to ever exist. And, you know, Team Japan has, obviously, a number of players who are going to be familiar to U.S. audiences, Otani, Yamamoto, Sayo, Suzuki. But, you know, you also get the opportunity to sort of get to know NPB players.

Are there guys on that team who you would highlight to an American audience as worth watching who they might be less familiar with? There's a few. Some with more major league potential because they're young. Heroto Takahashi is someone who might come over. He was a reliever. He struck out Trout and Goldschmidt in 2023. He had a downseason this past year, but he throws really hard.

His mechanics are basically Yamamoto's because he works out with Yamamoto. Haromi Ito just won the Salamora Award, which is the Say Young here. But unlike the Say Young, if the Japanese writers don't believe anyone deserves the award, they don't give it out. I love that so much. Yeah, it's incredible. So he's actually the first winner since Yamamoto. Shugo Maki at second base, really more of a first baseman stretched at second base, but big power, great hitter, incredible clubhouse guy, funny guy, sings and dances.

He's pretty beloved. And then in right field, Kansuke Kondo is an absolute favorite of mine. He let off last night, I believe Hirokazuibata is going to have him lead off the tournament. Just a really solid hitter. I think he's like a 300, 400, 460 type guy in the NPB, and it's a lower offensive environment there. So those numbers, you know, elevate that by 10, 15 percent already. He was incredible in 2023, and he's going to be a huge part of the team. And then you have Terriaki Sato, who hit 45 home runs.

I believe no one else hit more than 33. He won the MVP. And he's not even likely to start because if Okamoto plays third, and Morakami plays first, and obviously Otani D.Hs, there's literally no place to put the reigning Central League MVP award winner. So there's some issues with Team Japan this year. They're a little weaker, I think, than 2023, but that is like, you know, saying, I don't know what fancy cars are, like a Ferrari is not as good as another fancy car. Sounds like you're a real car guy. Just like, you're a real car guy.

Hands covered in oil always. So the WBC is hugely popular and important in Japan, obviously, and they've taken it super seriously, and they've won three of five thus far, so it shows. But the numbers are bonkers, the audiences, the ratings. And I envy that, really, just the percentage of the population that is paying attention to baseball at any given time. And there's more of a history of international competition and the national teams. and other tournaments in Asia. But we did see a real level up last time in the U.S.

just in terms of how present the WBC was in the zeitgeist, just in mainstream culture, and even among MLB fans. It was obviously just a watershed edition of the WBC. And so now the question is, can that be repeated? Can that be built on? Can they consolidate those gains? what's your forecast for just how ubiquitous, how essential the WBC is going to feel this year? Because this is a huge sports year, and it's a huge year for international sporting competitions.

And we're going right from the Winter Olympics to the WBC and then everyone's looking forward to the World Cup. Obviously, it's not that level of competition. But will we at least inch a little closer to mirroring the enthusiasm for this tournament in other countries? I think we're definitely getting there. Obviously, there's still some teams in front offices that they're trying to win the World Series, and therefore they would like their guys to be in camp. But you used to see a lot of fans saying things like, oh, the WBC, it's an exhibition. You don't really see that very often.

I mean, you know, if you go on Twitter, you'll see the worst opinions from the worst people, so they're out there. But most people are really excited for this. They like the World Cup. They like the Olympics, and they understand that this is a different. style of baseball. I love 162 games. I love watching a game and not caring who wins or loses because there's another game tomorrow, but tournament baseball is not like that. Even in pool play, one loss can completely ruin every plan, every hope. You know, good teams, Columbia,

went to a, had to win a qualifier, and those aren't easy. So this is, you know, obviously we see Team USA has the best roster ever. I think every team is bringing their best possible roster. ever, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, I mean, the people on Mexico's roster. So the players are there, the excitement's there. Now, we got somehow, the cosmos came together to give us the most perfect ending possible, Shohei Otani striking out Mike Trout. We had all been joking about that being the outcome last time. And then it happened. So I don't think you can top that, but I think it's going to be it's going to be really exciting

no matter what I mean we could have a DR Venezuela final in Miami and that atmosphere will be just as electric we're all assuming you know Japan's going to go to Miami I've heard that the O and Don's going to be there so we're going to have

you know hopefully the horns and the flags and everything there as well it's it's really US fans I think are waking up to how much fun this this tournament can be and US play and U.S. pitchers specifically, which we've stat blasted about, I've written about, just the

enormous difference in the quality of the pitching staff on Team USA this year compared to last time around, but really compared to every previous incarnation iteration of this tournament. And a little wind came out of the sales just because it turns out Terrick Scooples making only one start for Team USA before he goes back to, what was it, Meg, Publix field at Joker Marchant Stadium? We just bantered about the names of spring training parks, if you couldn't tell. But between that and Joe Ryan being injured and out for at least the pool round play, that takes away a little bit from it. But even a single scoble start and a couple skein starts and a couple web starts, I mean, that's just a night and day difference.

And I think that does send a different signal. It does. It was harder to take the event seriously if you were an American fan rooting for Team USA when the players themselves were not taking it as seriously. And you could understand why they weren't and the financial incentives at stake and everything. It's a rational decision, I suppose, when there was not that history of this event being super meaningful. But now that there is more of that history and they are taking it more seriously, then I do think that will be contagious. So that's my hope at least. But you're right.

We can't possibly, I don't think, get a storybook ending like last time because that, the more time passes. We were aware in the moment of just how incredible that was and you could see it shaping up. But I think in retrospect, it really is just a highlight of this century in the sport. And maybe the fact that we've gotten to see more of Otani in the playoffs now, not Mike Trout, unfortunately for him. But at the time, it was the only way we were going to see Mike Trout and Cho Yotani in a playoff-like atmosphere, let alone them facing each other. And now you don't have Trout playing in the WBC insurance issues. And also maybe Mike Trout not being as good as he used to issues. And then Choyotani is not pitching this time around in the tournament.

So it literally could not happen, but also I don't think anything quite like that could happen. But I don't want to discount the possibility. maybe the WBC will surprise us. And I think it's actually for the best that America lost last time, coming so close and having that storybook end. If America wins, maybe everyone goes, well, hey, yeah, we're America. We've invented the sport whether or not that's actually true. Yeah. And instead, it wasn't an embarrassment, but it's like, no, Japan gets to walk around and say that they're the greatest baseball nation.

Raining Olympic gold medalist three-time WBC winner. No, we want the title. And I think, you know, I don't watch wrestling. I'm making a lot of analogies for things I don't actually watch or pay attention to. But it feels like, you know, we got to go get in the cage and get the belt back. That moment was so electric and exciting. But I think that one of the great things about the WBC is, you know, some of the smaller successes from teams where it's not that they are really set to challenge, you know, the U.S. or Japan or the D.R. or Venezuela.

but they are they're demonstrating sort of meaningful steps forward for the sport in their country. I think about the- I want to write a book about one of those, one of these years, I think. But I think about the way that, you know, we heard stories the last time out of how excited, like, school kids in Great Britain were for that team and their success and, like, learning that Harry Ford was British, right? So, or had lineage, rather. So it would be funny if you showed up to camp with an accent. So I'm curious if there are, you know, sort of smaller stories that you're excited to track through the tournament, even if it doesn't end with, you know, that team's pitcher staring down one of the best hitters on the planet. Yeah, I mean, that's some of my absolute favorite stuff in sports.

That is why I really love this tournament, because you obviously have the big major leaguers, but we see guys who, whether they're career minor leaguers or they, play in other leagues, or maybe they don't even play professional baseball, but they can have these incredible moments because they've, you know, dedicated themselves to the sports. So obviously there's the Czech Republic, and, you know, we can, we can dive into that, but I'll leave that for, for a minute. Nicaragua is one I'm really excited about. I've talked to some people down there, and Fernando Ryo is a phenomenal reporter there. They play baseball all year. They have a Summer League as well. And in the Summer League, actually, the players play for the city they're from or that they live in. So, like, literally, if you're rooting for this team, it's because the guys live there.

So Nicaragua is a big baseball-loving nation, but we haven't seen so many of those guys get to the majors. You know, Jonathan Loisigua being a Yankee was a huge deal. So the fact that Dusty Baker went down there and that Kangrophy Jr. came, even just, you know, for a couple days, made a big deal. And so we can see Nicaragua's baseball improved just by being in this tournament. You know, they won the Taipei pool. That was not expected. They swept their way through it. That was really great.

Chinese Taipei, they won the 2024 Premier 12. They upset Japan to do it. They ended Japan's 27 game winning streak. That is one of the, you know, it's the biggest win in the team's history, but they're supercharging. development system right now. They're using a lot of technology with pitching, but their captain, Chia So Chen. He thought he was going to sign with the Major League team as a teenager. It didn't happen. He thought he was going to be drafted by an MPB team. It didn't happen. He went back to Taiwan, and then he became the captain of this team and led them to the team's biggest victory

of all time. He was named MVP of the Premier 12s, hit 625, two home runs. Tim Kennelly, it's his last tournament. He leads the Australian Baseball League in almost every statistical. category. He's also a firefighter. He just retired. This is his last tournament. You know, you talk to the guys on Australia. They adore playing with him. And now we see, you know, Curtis Meads in the majors, Travis Bezana drafted first overall. They've got more guys in college at, you know, D1 schools. A guy from Arkansas was drafted last year. So we're seeing these countries grow through tournaments like this. And we're, you know, there's these lifers that have really, have really, dedicated themselves for not a lot of money of any money. And it's because they love the game and

then they give it back to the next generation. Yeah, I don't know what's better. Obviously, it's exciting to see the superstars that we all know. But it's great to remember some guys, first of all. Just, you know, it's like, oh, Didi Gregorius is playing for the Netherlands. We haven't seen Didi in a while, at least a lot of us. So there's that remembering some guys. And then there's also just the charm of seeing players show up on teams that you never would have expected them to play for. And ever since Nick mentioned Harry Ford cultivating an accent, I'm just imagining someone just going full method with like being on one of these teams and just doing all kinds of, I guess it wouldn't quite be cultural appropriation, but kind of just like I really want to represent the ideals and traditions of this WBC team I'm playing for. And so for the next 12 days or whatever, I am going to fully act as if I am from there in every way. That's probably bad in certain respects.

Yeah, I wouldn't, to be clear, I'm not actually recommending this. It seems like it could go fast in a bad direction, but it just would be fun. But those two things are great, remembering guys that we know but haven't thought of in a while, getting to see where guys play, just surprise roster appearances. and then also getting to know some guys who are local heroes in whatever country they're playing for, and you might not know them because maybe they never did play MLB or whatever. And so you can then learn about their records in their countries and the part that they've played in establishing baseball in their areas. So it's all good is what I'm saying, I guess.

Regardless, I'm happy about it. Now, do you think, so the five tournaments that we've had thus far, we've had, three winners, it's Japan, the U.S., the DR. Is anyone else a realistic chance to break into the winner's circle here? Because those three powerhouses are still the favorites, and this is the best U.S. team I think we've ever seen, even with the loss of Ryan and Corbyn Carroll and only one start of scuba, et cetera.

It's still a super team. Do you think anyone else, maybe it's Venezuela, maybe it's Mexico, maybe it's Puerto Rico, even though a lot of Puerto Rican players not able to go because of insurance issues. So who could possibly break in? Because you'd still think, like, it's playoff baseball, in a sense, and isn't playoff baseball supposed to be super random and unpredictable? Like, I know there's enough of a talent gap between this team and that team that you're probably not going to see an upset even in a single game. But over the course of this tournament with a talented roster, that could happen. It feels like it was fate that U.S. and Japan were to play each other, and maybe it was because we forget, Puerto Rico lost 5-4 to Mexico. That's a one-run game. Puerto Rico beats Mexico. Who knows what happens? Japan had to walk off Mexico in the semifinal with the Luna Taka Morikami double. So Mexico was a couple outs from a reliever away from a spot in the finals. And it was a Trey Turner home run to beat Venezuela to come back against.

them for the USA. So there were three games that very nearly could have completely changed the narrative if any of them kind of broke the other way. So I have a newsletter going out tomorrow with my prediction. I've literally changed my prediction five times. One day I think it's USA. The other day it's Japan, then it's DR. Venezuela obviously is, I think there's four teams that kind of, if we talk about tiers, they're in that tier one. That lineup is incredible. Salvador Perez, Curio, Acuna, big loss with Pablo Lopez getting hurt, but having, you know, Ranger Suarez and Daniel Palencia, I very easily could see Venezuela going all the way, which would be huge because they have only one semi-final appearance in history.

Canada, I think, could surprise. I don't see them going. Yeah, Canada's looking stronger this year. It's true. Canada and Italy seem like maybe two of the most improved teams in terms of MLB talent, at least, or close to MLB talent. Yeah, I think at the winter meetings, I can't remember if who's the manager, the GM for Canada. He said, this is the first time we've had to tell major leaguers, no, we don't have a spot for you. Now, not every position, you know, Adam Hall, he's from Bermuda.

Another great story. He's from Bermuda to a Canadian father, Bermuda and mother. He's in the minor league. So it's not every position. But yeah, they had to say no to major leaguers this year because there was no place for them. So I could see Canada surprising. Yeah, Italy looks really strong. you know, if Jack Caglione, you know, wants to break out here, then anything could happen.

The other ones, I think Mexico could make a run in the bracket I did last night, again, changed every time I had Mexico in the semifinal and could see that, you know, obviously could do it again. So those are probably the ones. I think Chinese Taipei can surprise, but that's really more of like reach the semifinal kind of surprise. So, yeah, that's probably where we're at where it's, Four teams that really have a chance, six, seven, eight, depending on how nice you want to be, that have a chance, and then 12 that could have the Cinderella run of all time. We should probably let you talk about the subject of your book just a little bit.

Which that's the Cinderella team that's going to go win it all, obviously. There you go. So tell us why they should be our Cinderella team to root for. You know, baseball in the Czech Republic is really interesting, even just compared to other European countries. So Italy and Germany, a lot of their baseball history comes from World War II. So, yeah, the way I want to talk about the 26 World Baseball Classic, I want to go 80 years in the past. But it's, you know, it was American military and service members. It was like a literal part of American diplomacy after the war to like spread democracy through baseball. So that's where

their baseball history kind of comes from. And you see a lot of the, especially in Germany, baseball popping up in pockets around where army bases used to be. The Czech Republic was part of the USSR, and they actually hated baseball. The only reason they were even allowed to play by the government was because of Cuba and Fidel Castro. So they don't really start playing, you know, they get their first national team in the 80s. In the 70s, they started traveling for the first time, not official national team, where they would buy money on the black market and hide it in their equipment bag so that when they left the country, they could buy equipment and bring it back

and just hope that none of the USSR authorities would recognize it. One time, Jan Boggin got a shipment of three bats from Easton Bat Company, and he was called down to the customs office to pick it up, and they said, what kind of table has three legs?

And he was like, yeah, yeah, it's a table of three legs. These are table legs. So they don't even start until the 90s, but unlike Italy, which obviously has a lot of Italian Americans, unlike, you know, Netherlands, which pulls from the entire kingdom of the Netherlands, Great Britain, which has, you know, a lot of passport players, as people call it, the Czechs are almost entirely

born, developed, and play there. And there's only 10,000 players in the entire country, so to get to this level is incredible. They all have day jobs. There's the electrical technician who struck out Otani, Andre Satoria. Martin Schneider was a former two-way player. He's getting older now. he's coming back from shoulder surgery. He's a firefighter. Lukash Irkali, who is a relief pitcher, is the team's media manager and comms director. So when I'm emailing them for something,

I'm talking to one of the players on the team. Their manager, Pavel Hedim, is a neurologist. These guys fit baseball in around their lives. Weddings, vacations, everything is for the baseball schedule. When the Czechs got to the Olympic qualifiers by beating Germany, I believe, in 2020, they had to call their jobs and say, hi, I'm not going to make it. I need more vacation time because we're actually advancing. So if you don't love that, like we all love baseball. I'm sure all of us would trade anything to be able to go strike out Otani. You can't help but, you know, love the sacrifice that they've made and all the work they've put into this program. did the exposure they got last time around do anything for baseball programs in the country,

for recruiting? How's the squad looking this time around? The squad is definitely stronger than last time, but I think we're going to see the real effect 10, 15 years down the line. One of the things you'll notice when you watch European baseball is that the players are a lot smaller. It's because the best athletes, whether because they like the other sports more, they think they have a better chance of making it a career, go to soccer, they go to hockey, they go to basketball. Now, though, because of their performance, they were on TV for the first time. They're getting some of those best athletes. They want these kids now want to play baseball. They understand it. And the other thing is, the world has sort of accepted the checks.

We saw Otani wearing the Czech hat. Well, the Chiba Lote Marines have an official partnership with the checks where they have a coach fly over for spring training and they have a partnership. Japan and Chinese Taipei for the first time ever played at Prague Baseball Week. The Czechs hosted the 2020-33 European Championship, and they set records for European Championship attendance in the tournament's history. Nothing to do with Czechia, but Italy and Netherlands never had that many fans come out. So it is just, it is absolutely blown up. Merak Loup became the first Czech player in the NPB. He's the first European-developed position player in the NPB.

He only made it. This is where it's so heartbreaking. He made it two games and then broke his wrist. And that was it. But he did it. And now there's that pathway. He just signed with the Caliente de Durango in the Mexican League. So he'll be the first Czech player there.

The level is rising. The increased exposure, the number of players coming out. It's still a sport that most people there don't even know it exists. But if you love communities and like, you know, we all are in the effectively wild Facebook group. That is a community of baseball super fans. Well, I think you'd get along with the people who come out to watch Eagles Praha or Drotsie Bernou because they're baseball obsessives in a country that doesn't even know baseball is there. Do you think that if an injury happens to anyone prominent in this year's tournament, that it will be as big a deal, as as big an existential threat to WBC participation as it

has been in the past, or have we reached the point where the tournament is seen as just a constant on the baseball landscape? And if someone gets hurt, well, that's a bummer, but it doesn't endanger anyone's participation in future tournaments because that's what I'd like. I don't know that the WBC actually increases risk for anyone. At least it didn't several years ago when I looked into that, and you just have to remember how many guys get hurt in spring training. But I guess it's more galling if you're someone who thinks of this as an exhibition.

and what matters is MLB and your team that you root for all the time, then you're upset when someone gets hurt in service of some other team's goals, right? So do you think it's still an issue? Obviously, it's been an issue for insurance coverage and player participation. But if we get another Edwin Diaz, if Edwin Diaz himself gets hurt again, I don't wish that upon him. But do you think that it will cause as much hand-wringing and we've got to go back to the drawing board and we've got to play this at a different time,

or will it just start to seem like, well, this is part of the cost of doing business because when guys play sports, some of them get hurt. I am still a little worried about that. I mean, because we saw the reaction to the Edwin-Dia's injury, but he didn't hurt himself playing. He heard himself celebrating. Like, things happen. People slip in the shower.

Jeff Kent slipped washing his motorcycle, wink, wink, wink. It's just life. The human body is not. good at not falling apart. Like, entropy awaits us all. My biggest concern would be if there's a major injury, something like Tommy John, right? Where, you know, it's from the tournament. The guy walks off the field and now he's gone.

I think the tournament's going to survive. I think it's gotten too big. I think there's too many players who are excited. And even just from a business perspective, it's just too strong. There are so many countries around the world. and if Major League Baseball wants to grow and expand, this is a great way to do it to bring in those new markets. So I think the WBC will continue on, but if Paul Skeens, God, I'm knocking on every piece of wood simply for his health and baseball's health. But, like, if that was to happen, I would not want to, you know, pick up the New York Post or come anywhere near Sports Talk Radio for a good long while.

Yeah. I don't know if I'd recommend picking up the New York Post most of the time. I mean, some of the baseball coverage can be okay. But yeah, I'd feel especially bad for Pittsburgh fans because they just lost Sidney Crosby for a bit because he got hurt in the Olympics, of course. But that's kind of what I'm talking about where there's this extended historic store-reed tradition of international best-on-best competitions in hockey. And USA versus Canada means an enormous amount and holds a lot of significance. So not that that necessarily makes Penguins fans feel better if Sid is on the IR. for four weeks or whatever, but it doesn't... Sid, don't look at you.

Yeah, it doesn't endanger the enterprise, right? I mean, not that NHL players have been appearing in the Olympics all the time, but you had the four nations face off, et cetera, right? So, like, the tradition of, yes, we're sending the best players to play in these national or international tournaments. That's not going to go away because someone has a lower body injury, but it still feels tenuous enough, I guess, at least for American players for it to possibly

throw a wrench into things, but I hope not. It doesn't help that the act of pitching literally is not something the body is made to do. You know, your body can run. All the other things in other sports are like, yeah, yeah, your body's made to do this. And the main thing

that starts every play in baseball is like, oh, no, you're destroying your body a little bit every time you do this. Until we figure that out, I think it's going to be a concern forever. So if we can get doctors and I don't know, scientists, aliens, whoever can fix that.

That's the real secret, I think. I do not say this in any way to try to disrespect the current coaching staff of Team USA. But I am curious, there's this like under maybe examined aspect of this, which is that big league managers are kind of busy this time of year. And the rest of their coaching staff is too. So you end up with staffs that are largely made up of former players, guys who don't have current managerial responsibilities beyond the WBC. I wonder if you've thought of any nifty solutions to that, because it does strike me as an area where we might be able to add a little bit of marginal juice

to the team by having guys who have more current sort of exposure to big league methodologies and coaching techniques, not that you really have to tell Pulskines very much, but has any thought and given to that about how you could have the dugout and the WBC reflect maybe a more current big league dugout? Yeah, it's really interesting because in a way it feels almost like for coaching staffs this is their minor leagues in a way. You know, Albert Pujols, Yadir Molina, you know, maybe Mark DeRosa has dreams of a major league job where it's like you prove yourself here. It's just really tough too because even talking to some of these other national teams where it is a bigger portion.

You know, when you talk to them, you're like, hey, you're the pitching coach. Like, what do you do when the guy gets here? And they're like, you know, we're not fixing mechanics. We're not touching that. We don't have the time to do that. You know, we can put in a, you know, a training method. Seems like the Czech Republic are a little different because it's sort of top down. But even then, they're like, hey, when a guy shows up here, we're just like getting them ready to go and just like tweaking the smallest thing.

So it's one of those things where it's also like in a short, tournament, like if you brought in, you know, the giant staff or the Yankee staff, like, what would they do differently? And that's where I go. I don't really know the answer to that. So it's a good question. And I don't know what difference that would make and how we could get around to doing that. Because, yeah, if people don't like the players leaving the team during spring training, I don't

think they're going to love the entire coaching staff up and leaving too. How often should the WBC be held? Because after the last tournament ended and we were all riding that high, I wrote something. Just I demand that there be more WBCs or something, give us more WBCs. And eventually they complied, but it took a few years. So should this be something that happens more often than every three years or even every four years just because I guess the next one is tentatively going to take place in 2029, right? I guess, subject to CBA stuff? And then was there a plan for the following one to be 2033 and go back to the every four years?

And it just, it feels to me like we don't need to do it that infrequently because there are a lot of reasons why the World Cup is that infrequent. And the Olympics are that infrequent. It's just logistically, it's just such a heavy lift. And there's so many qualifiers and so many participants. And it feels like we could do this more often if we wanted to. Obviously, if it's every year, then it becomes kind of commonplace. Maybe it's not quite as special, but also people get in the habit of watching it and caring about it. So what do you think is the ideal WBC cadence?

My dream is every three. I think every three is perfect because you have the tournament, and then year one is you live in that glow. You know, you wouldn't want it to be the next year. And then year two is qualifiers. So then they get as much attention. as you want to give them. You know, it's sometimes when it's like qualifiers and then immediately you have the, you know, it kind of gets lost in a jumble.

So year two is you get the qualifiers. And what I would love is something similar to soccer where not that there's national team breaks, but maybe around the time that the qualifiers are happening, the other national teams get together for workouts or something, right? Just so that they feel like more of a team. That would be really cool for me. And then year three, you have the tournament. The only issue with that is then you do, because it's not every four years, you

start running into the Olympics. And 2030, so if it's 2029, 2032, well, 2032 is the Brisbane Olympics. And I know I'm hoping that that is a country that will get baseball in. I know that's something baseball is trying to do. And so then what happens? Do you go four? Do you skip it? Do you say the Olympics are the WBC? So that's the logistical area there. But for me, three years makes it feel special. It also then feels a little less like, oh, it's, yeah, it's the baseball World Cup, but we're not just copying everything the World Cup does. It's three years, not four years, totally different, very, very different thing. I know I said at the start of the segment that we were going to try to ignore the nightmares for a few moments to just talk about the baseball, but

this is, after all, an international sporting competition. And if we've learned anything from recent examples of that, whether it be Four Nations or Olympics, et cetera, they very rarely are cleanly delineated from politics, right? And you've already seen, you know, there have been some teams that have had issues getting personnel into the country, which could be a larger issue for teams heading into the regular season, but has already had some effect on the WBC. And then, of course, you have the Donald Trump factor. He is a sports fan. He pays close attention to sports. He likes to step into the spotlight that sports can confer upon him. And, well, we just saw what happened. with Team USA, right, where we had this triumphant double gold and great feelings and everything.

And then you have the FBI director celebrating in the locker room. You have Trump calling and insulting the women's team, et cetera, right? And the players yakking it up about that joke. And then there's a whole new cycle after that where some of them say, yeah, we shouldn't have done that. And others defend themselves and say, oh, you're too sensitive. And everyone's looking for a reason to create a problem, right? We've seen this so many times. And And given the political makeup of baseball teams, at least American players compared to hockey, it's pretty comparable. So if Donald Trump were to decide to insert himself into this tournament and try to make a show of supporting Team USA and let's say they win, you know, glorifying in their victory with them glorifying himself, I guess I wonder what the likelihood you think of having that. happen and having that really boil over because, you know, it's nice just to root for Paul

Skenes as just a good baseball boy, you know, and not have to worry about what his political opinions are and what he said about the U.S. asserting its dominance and where he and Livie done whose suite they were in at the CFP title game. It was Donald Trump's spoiler. So will this boil over in baseball? Or do you think the fact that the WBC, at least as of yet, is not national and international news to the extent that the Winter Olympics are that maybe this will escape the ever-roving eye of the president? He, you can't predict what is going to happen there. But unfortunately, we have seen politics already be involved. there is a big question on sort of what's going on with Cuba.

There's reports are changing a little bit, but it seems like that while the team got the visas, some members of the Federation, which typically just come along, it's not an issue. We're unable to get visas. I can't confirm where that is right now. Unfortunately, you can't separate sports and politics, and that's been one of the issues with the Cuban national team. Regardless of this, we see, you know, Cuban Americans choosing not to play for the team because they feel like the team is an extension

of the government, where the goal of international sports is that we can all come together, enjoy the fact that we can share in this game, enjoy that we can play it and see each other as people and competitors, and we can ignore whatever the governments are doing behind it. That's the dream, right? But unfortunately, the way the world is right now, I don't think we're going to be able to avoid it, unfortunately. And we'll just have to hope that the tournament is so good. And everyone gets along.

You know, I talked maybe about six months ago with Pat Borders, who was on the 2000 USA Olympic team, who beat Cuba. And it was a huge rivalry. And, you know, things weren't great between America and Cuba then. But talking to him, he said, after the game, we all went back to the Olympic Village. The Cubans came over. We traded equipment with them. We hung out and we had food. And it's like, that's what you want.

That's what we're hoping for. So let's hope for that. And just because you mentioned the women's team, I do want to say, this. July end of July, the women's baseball world cup is back. So not only do we have soccer World Cup, end of July, we've got the women's baseball World Cup back. This should be the group stage and next year will be the finals. It kind of is split that way. But yeah, we're going to have international women's baseball too, which is going to be great. Yeah, it's a huge year. Do you think Clayton Kershaw is going to pitch in the WBC? Oh, 100%. 100%. This is, this, this

Do you think he's going to pitch in a high leverage Bobin? Is he, I guess what I should have asked. Have you seen video of Clayton Kirtschaw pitching? I just saw a video of Clayton Kershaw pitching. He always had a dad, bud. It's more of one now, maybe. Could be. Yeah, I wonder, you know, like,

are we hoping that it's the ninth inning of the final and you bring in Kershaw and you see the last inning for this Hall of Fame pitcher? Better be a large lead, is all I'm saying. You know, is this going to be where then everyone goes, oh, he couldn't do this in the World Series, but he comes out here. But yeah, I'm interested.

But that's another thing, too, that speaks to where the tournaments at, where this guy who retired, he wanted to pay his own insurance in 2023, but whatever the number was, he couldn't do it. And so even though he's like, I'm done, I'm retired, I'm leaving the game. He's like, no, no, no, I want before my baseball career is done, before I put my jersey away forever, I want to do this. And, I mean, I think that's pretty cool. Alexei Ramirez is 44. I do want to mention he's playing for Cuba.

But that should be mentioned. He hasn't played in the majors since 2016, I believe. The various prediction markets and odds and such, I think, have the U.S. team about even with the field. So U.S. versus everyone else that the championship odds are about even there. Do you think that's roughly right, or do you think that Team USA is being underrated or overrated at this point? Because, you know, I said before, like, even though the pitching staff is better, it's not like a 92 dream. team situation. You know, it's much more evenly matched than that. And I'm glad because I wouldn't want us or any team to just walk all over everyone. I don't think that would be as fun.

So I don't understand odds plus whatever. I don't understand what that means. But, you know, what is it? It's probably like 32% chance America wins it. 30% chance Dominican Republic. 29% chance Japan. I think others are putting it at like 50% U.S. wins it. 50% someone else does. Baseball's too weird for that. You could have. have Paul Skeen, you know, especially with pitch counts too, like, Paul Skeens could throw five, six, seven, no hit innings, and it's a two-nothing game, and then someone comes in and gives up a three-run, home run. It's baseball is too strange. And what's great about tournament baseball is small ball is kind of important because one, you just, sometimes just need that one run. And maybe that one

run knocks the U.S. out in the quarterfinal. And everyone then in America goes, what's wrong? We brought the best team. And it's like, it's one game. You don't get a seven-game series. So, yeah, I think a 50% odds for America is way too high. I also, I just think there's three, four teams that are much closer to each other than America kind of lapping everyone that way. All right. Are there any last storylines that you're following that we have not discussed or any particular players or teams or just anything prominent or obscure that you care to shout out?

Oh, that is such a great question. There's just so much that now my mind, of course, just like went blank all of a sudden. Like, oh, yeah. There's twins on Australia's pitching staff. Lachlan and Alex Wells. Alex Wells made the majors. Lachlan left baseball, fell out of love with baseball, then came back and is in the KBO. He just signed with the LG twins after pitching with the heroes.

That's awesome. Alfredo Despagne is back on Cuba's roster. He's the all-time home run leader in the tournament, and he's 40 now, and he's back. Kevin Kelly for Netherlands is a name you probably don't know, but in the semifinals of the European baseball championship, playing Spain, who was the reigning winner, Tom de Block got hurt two outs into the game, Kevin Kelly came in, pitched the rest of the game, and struck out 16 batters. I don't know if he can do that at the WBC level, but like, wow, that's incredible. Like, we should be talking about that. That's one of the all-time greatest relief performances

in history. So I'm just looking forward to. to that, you know, Adam Stern, four RBIs inside the park home run. Martin Mugee, home run to beat China. Like, who are the guys that are going to become worldwide celebrities that we just have no idea about right now? Yeah. And which team will you write a book about this time? Give us one last tidbit from your reporting, from We Sacrifice Everything to Baseball without giving the whole store away.

Just another little illustrative little morsel that you uncovered. With Martin Mujik, let's talk about him. The home run he hit to beat China. His mother was in the stands, and she kind of became a celebrity. You see her crying behind home plate. Well, the reason he started baseball, he said he was a chubby little kid with too much energy. So one day, they just saw an advertisement for baseball. He was like five, six years younger than everybody else. His mom dropped him off there. And that became his life. He swung the bat, hit the ball, fell in love. And that was every thing. thing. And so for him to hit that game-winning home run and to have his mother there, not just in the stands, but sobbing behind home plate, she knew nothing about baseball when he started. And then look at this. So it was just, my kid needs something to do for a day. Let's try baseball. That was it. That's how he started. And then we see how just how much it meant to that family. So that's, that's what this, this tournament is about. And last time, Tim Connelly, the firefighter on, on Australia. His daughter was there.

She was three years old at the time, started a let's go daddy chant that all the fans in the Tokyo Dome joined in on. Everyone was chanting, let's go daddy. Seems not specific enough. That could apply probably to a lot of players on the field. They all enjoyed it. They all enjoyed it. They all loved it. So, yeah, I'm just, that there's so much great stuff here.

And to me, this is just a huge celebration of baseball as baseball. And that's what I'm looking forward to. Well, we're looking forward to your coverage of the tournament. Your enthusiasm is infectious. If we weren't already excited for the WBC, I think we would be now, but we were, but still, even more excited now. And also excited for your book, which Meg and I already got our grubby hands on. So we got an early advanced copy. But you can also have Michael's book in less than a month. And you can pre-order it now. And every author will tell you. Pre-orders much appreciated to show some interest. And it's from the venerable baseball press. Well, it's not a baseball press, but it feels like it is. Sometimes the University of Nebraska Press, which has been interviewed on this podcast

about how it publishes so many excellent baseball books. And this one is called We Sacifies Everything to Baseball, How the Czech Republic's Amateur Underdogs became World Baseball Classic Heroes. We will, of course, link to it on our show page. So let's hope we have a great tournament, and good luck to your chat. mates, and we will talk to you soon. Thank you guys so much. This is going to be a fun tournament,

and I look forward to seeing what happens. Well, speaking of politics and baseball, and for that matter, the New York Post, I saw this quote from Monday after we finished recording. Donald Trump told the post, in regard to the possibility of sending American troops to Iran, quote, I don't have the yips with respect to boots on the ground. Like every president says, there will be no boots on the ground, I don't say it, I say probably don't need them or if they were necessary. I actually wish he would develop the yips in that sense. That will do it for today. Thanks as always for listening. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild and signing up to pled some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay ad free and get

yourself access to some perks, as have the following five listeners. Andrew Renick, Erathorn, father of Aragorn, Drew, Brady Miller, and Zach Johnson. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons-only, monthly bonus episodes, playoff live streams, prioritized email answers, personalized messages, shoutouts at the end of episodes, potential podcast appearances, discounts on merch and ad-free fangrass memberships, and so much more. Check out all the offerings at patreon.com slash Effectively Wild.

If you are a Patreon supporter, you can message us through the Patreon site. If not, you can contact us via email. Send your questions, comments, intro, intro themes to podcast at Fangraphs.com. You can rate, review, and subscribe to EffectivelyWild on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, music, and other podcast platforms. You can join our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash group, such effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at our slash Effectively Wild. You can join our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash Effectively Wild.

And you can check the show notes in the podcast posted VanGraphs or in the episode description in your podcast app. Thanks to Shane McKean for his editing and production assistance. We'll be back with another episode soon. We'll be previewing the Yankees and Cardinal seasons, if all goes according to plan. So we will talk to you then. We're going to crunch those stats. We're going to talk about baseball, sticky stuff and torpedo bats.

We'll talk about it all. If you want good takes on baseball and life, just tune in a bed and his lovely co-ho. Ben and Meg, it's effectively wild.