Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2496: Our Daily Breb

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the rise and fall of Ildemaro Vargas, the Mets’ and Cubs’ David Peterson swap, Jazz Chisholm Jr.’s refusal to wear a cup, the Giants’ response to Pride Night fallout, and the owners’ CBA strategy. Then (56:41) Ben brings back John Brebbia to discuss the Rockies reliever’s return to the majors, how he’s handling the journeyman phase of his career, when to opt out of a contract, Colorado’s player-dev improvements, Triple-A attitudes, how the minors have changed, the greatest major league luxury, dugout pitch-calling, challenging, his entrance song, how he and other players are following the labor talks, and more. Audio intro: Jimmy Kramer, “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio interstitial: The Spaghettis, “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio outro: Benny and a Million Shetland Ponies, “Effectively Wild Theme (Pedantic)” Link to Lennon song Link to MLFAD Link to “Train Daddy” article Link to “Railroad Daddy” article Link to Brebbia’s first appearance Link to Vargas hot streak Link to Vargas cold strea Link to Voros’s Law Link to gambler’s fallacy Link to Vargas collision Link to Flowers for Algernon adaptations Link to Charly Link to TV movie Link to Awakenings Link to “Snakes alive” slogan Link to Nora Morse wiki Link to FG post on the Cubs Link to MLBTR on Peterson Link to Gary Cohen quote Link to Mets’ six errors Link to Chisholm clip Link to Chisholm story Link to Mariners testicle injury thread Link to Haniger story Link to risk compensation wiki Link to catcher helmets interview Link to lollipop story Link to Davitt interview Link to Posey clip Link to SF Chronicle on the Giants Link to The Athletic on the Giants Link to KNBR interview story Link to Devers apology story Link to Vitello’s The Town reference Link to Manfred letter Link to The Athletic on MLB’s proposals Link to MLBTR on MLB’s proposals Link to Play Sun Smart initiative Link to Rockies team attitude story Link to Senzatela pitch mix Link to Bull Durham scene Link to Collins quote Link to dugout pitch-calling story Link to dugout pitch-calling story 2 Link to Ben on dugout pitch-calling Link to Wham! song Link to story about Brebbia’s song Link to Zoolander scene Link to Meyer quote  Sponsor Us on Patreon  Give a Gift Subscription  Email Us: [e-mail]  Effectively Wild Subreddit  Effectively Wild Wiki  Apple Podcasts Feed   Spotify Feed  YouTube Playlist  Facebook Group  Bluesky Account  Twitter Account  Get Our Merch! var SERVER_DATA = Object.assign(SERVER_DATA || {}); Source

Number one, Fangrass baseball podcast. This stat cast is that blasts. T-O-P-S-plus when the stats need contrast. Zips and steamer for the forecast. Hello and welcome to episode 2496 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rally of Fangraps, and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of the Ringer. Ben, how are you?

Well, considering who the guest on this episode is, You know how I am. I do. Never been better. I know. You're thrilled. John Brebby is back, folks. Back in the big leagues.

Back on effectively wild. So I will have an extended conversation with him later on this episode, which you were invited to, to be clear. I'm not trying to Brebea block you or anything. But you, I think you, it's kind of like, you know, when you're third wheeling it with a couple lovebirds and you invent a reason to get out of the. their hair kind of thing. And I said, I would welcome a chaperone, you know, if you wanted to accompany in us, like, it's the gilded age or something. And, you know, you had to, to walk a discrete distance behind us just to ensure our virtue is intact or whatever, then that that would have been totally fine. But you were considerate enough to just say, no, you have them all to

yourself. You said I could be the chaperone. I was like, well, you don't need a chaperone. And then you went off to have your conversation. I was like, he said the word chaperone. room maybe suggests that I should have interrogated the necessity there a little bit more closely. But I have confidence in your professionalism, Ben, you know, and your ability to be, well, you know, to clear a bar of being socially normal that... Walk right up to the line, but not over it. Okay, you're really not making me feel better about it, though. You're making me nervous now to listen to your conversation, which seems.

bananas. So anyway, here we are, you know, Gilded Age coming back. Coming back, Gilded Age. I'm well aware. Almost as excited about that as I am about Brebia being back, but not quite. If you started referring to Brebia as train daddy, then we would be in trouble, Ben. You know, we would have, we would have gone past the line. But you wouldn't do that because, one, it would be weird and sort of divorced from. from his profession. And, you know, he's not a brunette. So it doesn't work.

It doesn't fit. Yes, yes. Well, it all went great. So don't worry. And everyone will enjoy that conversation, I'm sure. But yeah, I kept the faith, you know. It's like the John Lennon song. Nobody loves you when you're down and out.

I still did when he was down. But he wasn't out. And now he's back up. And so pure is my affection for him that it didn't even dawn on me until days after he was promoted, that this has serious minor league free agent draft implications because I'm locked in a bit of a battle with other Ben. And other Ben drafted John Brebia in the minor league free agent.

Yeah, he sniped me. And I didn't even think about that, even though, of course, I want to win the minor league free agent draft didn't even occur to me because I just care about John Brebia being back more than I care about my fortunes in the minor league free agent draft. Clemens has Brebeya and Brett Sullivan, both sides of the battery in Brebia's Rocky's debut the other day.

So we will talk about his Odyssey. He's been with a number of organizations over the past year. So we will talk about his journey, the journey that the man has made. He is in the journeyman phase. And we'll talk about changes he has made to his pitching. We'll talk about his entrance song. We'll talk about what AAA is like, what it's like to be kind of on the cusp of the big leagues and trying to find a spot to be back up there and the differences among the levels and also some CBA stuff we will discuss as well. So lots to talk about with Mr. Brebria.

I do want to bring up a few things before he joins. First, remember Ildomaro Vargas? Yeah. Remember when everyone had Ildomero mania? and he was batten 400 and he was one of the best players in baseball. I think we all kind of understood, okay, this is fun. It's probably a bit fluky. And I don't think anyone really bought that this was a new Ildomaro Vargas

and he was just going to be a superstar from now on as a 34-year-old utility type. But we enjoyed it for what it was, I think. And the high water mark, at least once he got a little bit of playing time under his belt, He was batting 404 through May 1st. So at the end of May 1st, he was batting 404, 429, 702. He had a little bit of pop there too. Yeah. And he was the best hitter in the National League.

He had a 211 WRC Plus, which was number one in the National League among all qualified hitters through that point. Only Ben Rice barely was ahead of him in the majors. And we all forecasted some regression. Okay. but I don't think I anticipated quite how hard the regression was going to hit him. And I know he drove in a couple runs on Wednesday, but he has really gone south to the point that he was the best hitter in the league over that span through May 1st. He has been the worst hitter in the league since then.

Literally the worst by a lot. So if you start the clock on May 2nd, since then, he has played 46 games. So he played 24 games, 100 played appearances even through May 1st. And he had those eye-popping stats. Since then, he has the worst WRC plus among all qualified hitters, AL or NL. And yeah, it's not even close. He has a 233 WRC plus.

He has batted 172-232-2-25 and has been more than a win below replacement level. So he has almost undone the value that he provided early in the season. So wow, I just, this is the kind of thing that makes people believe in the gambler's fallacy, I think, where it's like if you've been cold, then you're due for a hot streak or vice versa. And that's not really the case. It's, you know, if you've been hot, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're in line to be as cold as you were hot. It might just mean that you're just going to play like regular old Ildomero Vargas from now on. But that's not what happened.

So he went from seemingly really lucky to really unlucky. Yeah. So he had a 416 babbip over that span when he was batting over 400. Okay. Since then, though, he has a 181 babbip. So it's like polar opposite seasons. What must it feel like to be Ildemarovar Vargis where for that first significant chunk of the season, you're leading a charmed life.

And I'm sure he probably had some sense of. perspective, right? But it's got to be like Wiley Coyote and you know, you run off the edge of the cliff and you're still somehow suspended in the air until you look down and realize that there's nothing solid under you. He must just be reeling. What a, what a thing to go from first to worst, basically, and like luckiest to unluckiest in the span of not even, you know, like a half season, basically. It's got to be just a real roller coaster for him. I'm not remembering the precise timing of this. So it might have nothing at all to do with the way that his fortunes have sort of turned. But I seem to recall that he was involved in a pretty nasty collision at first base.

And, you know, he's been playing. So clearly not something that is preventing him from being on the field. And so maybe nothing at all. But it did strike me as sort of unfortunate. And then, yeah, that's a grim, that's sort of a grim splits page. You know, sometimes you're like, oh, you know, guys go through stretches where they are hot or cold. And we've talked plenty before about how streaky hitters are to the point that we maybe do a bad job of communicating how typical that kind of streakiness can be for guys. This is really sure something.

This is quite a dramatic turn. I mean, wow, you know, like it's arrested. It's arresting, which is a weird thing to say about like a splits page, you know, that it could really take your breath away. It's just numbers on a website. But that's sort of where I'm at with it. My goodness. Yeah. And the Diamondbacks have had some guys, remember the year when everyone was cold at the start of the season and then they all got hot and Corbyn Burns and other guys, right, were just like terrible at the start.

And then we're amazing after that. Suarez, right? Ennio Suarez was sort of the same. something happened and yeah and yeah sometimes it is just luck and randomness and sometimes it is a guy's just he's got the mechanics locked in and then you can't keep him locked in or yeah someone gets a bit banged up and maybe they're playing through something the collision you're referring to was june 4th so that doesn't really quite account for it does it because he had already been in free for a while by that point yeah he had he had he had 227 in may he had 45 wrc plus i don't think he got

probably didn't help but we can't blame the collision with Max Monty, the elder, solely responsible for this. So, yeah, but it's really got to be, you know, it's like a Flowers for Algernon situation where suddenly he was just like gaining capacities that he had never had before. And then as soon as he got used to that, they all just disappeared. And we went back to what he was. And it's weird because if you just put the whole season stats together, he's doing okay, I guess.

So he's doing about what you would have expected for Ildemar Vargas. Like, we wouldn't bat an eye if we didn't know that he was super hot and then super cold. And we just looked at, oh, Ildemar Vargas, 94 WRC plus. Okay, that's on the high side for him. But that's not far out of line with what he would be expected to do. Like his depth chart projection right now is 87. His steamer projection is 90 rest of season. So the full season stats kind of look like who he is.

But that conceals. just two dramatically different sub-seasons in there. So it must really be something to be that guy and to have that completely out of character start to the season. And then your swift comeuppance. I think there are like two different vectors upon which it probably feels disorienting to him. Because on the one hand, he's demonstrated a capacity to do what he did in April, March and April, right? and sure we can appreciate the ways in which that performance was fluky and I don't mean to suggest that his true talent level was what he looked like in the beginning of the season but you will have guys who will never ever have a stretch like that in their entire their entire dumb careers right so demonstrating an ability to do it at all at any time is like kind of wild and and then for it to leave you just flowers for algebra and it's like such a rough comp to put on that my god does that movie have

Does that hold up? I've read the book. I don't know that I've seen the movie, actually. Isn't there a movie? Am I thinking of, what's the movie? Hold on. Don't laugh at me. It's just like that email you got the other day about the memory loss, you know,

now that you've had that birthday, it's happening. Yeah, I don't like that part. What's the one with Robert De Niro, you know, where he suddenly is capable of Ben? You see every movie. You don't know a movie I'm talking about? He's like, he's like given a treatment briefly and he's like a totally, it wakes up and is a different guy for a while and then it stops working.

Limitless? Are we talking about? Limitless. No, not what, wait a minute. No. Danira was in that. Awakenings. Awakening.

Oh, okay. I don't know if there is a movie of flowers for Alderan is the point. I think that my brain was making awakening. a film with Robert De Niro and Robin Williams into flowers for Algernon. But I think they have sort of similar vibes. Anyway, that's some hot IP. Someone could adapt, but it might be problematic. But the second sort of avenue and street to walk down that would feel very strange is like,

you know, if you're the Diamondbacks, do you think you're cursed? Like, are you worried that there's like a kind of a curse situation going on with you? because here are the players who are currently hurt for the Diamondbacks. Now, mind you, many of these guys are pitchers. But James McCann and Jordan Lawler hurt. Jordan Lawler's hurt again, Ben, again. And look, I don't want to be indifferent to the young man suffering, but am I glad he's no longer a prospect?

I am because we can't grapple with these injuries anymore. And then on the pitching side, they're still down Corbyn Burns. he has had a setback, as we've discussed. Christian Ben is on the injured list. Ryan Nelson's on the injured list. Michael Soroka went on the injured list, strained to glute. Blake Walson is on the injured list.

Justin Martinez is still on the injured list. AJ Puck just had a setback in his recovery from surgery. And Andrew Saul Frank is out. And weirdly, they have Max Kepler in the organization who is not yet eligible to play because he's still on the restricted list, but has been signed and will be, you know, know, up, I imagine, once he is eligible, which should be soon.

Anyway, you guys, you are snake bit, and I worry that the origin of your curse is your lack of fortitude in making the mascot a snake. And if you're a Diamondbacks fan, or remember the Diamondbacks organization, you're sitting there and saying, hey, you're kind of trivializing a hard time that we're going through. And I don't mean to. I want the Diamondbacks to do well. They're the local team. You want fun and excitement in the local market, you know?

Yeah. Snakes alive or not. They're still alive, Ben. They're not dead. They're just injured. It was like he had like Parkinson's or something. And then there was like a magical drug. And it woke him up.

And then it stopped working or something. I don't really remember it. I can tell. Yeah. Well, yeah. DeBack's lousy as nore. Nora Morse said in a headline. That's an effectively wild deep cut.

But they're not that lousy. They're in it. And maybe they'll get some of these guys back and they'll be better. But the trajectory of Vargas reminds me of the old saber metric maxim Voross's law, named after Vorace McCracken. Any major league kidder can hit just about anything in 60 at bats. Well, this was more than 60 at bats. That was 94 at bats for Vargas through May 1st.

But even over larger samples, surprising stuff happens. Also, to head off some emails, There is a film adaptation of Flowers for Algernon, which I had forgotten because it's called Charlie. And it's from 1968. And Cliff Robertson played Charlie, the character from the book. And one best actor, won an Oscar for that movie. So not only a movie, but one that featured at least one good performance. And there is also a Flowers for Algernon TV movie starring Matthew Modine from the year 2000.

I love Matthew. Modine. Did they have the, did they call that one Flowers for Algernome? Yes, yes, they did. Why did they call Charlie Charlie? I don't know. Maybe we would have remembered it more quickly if they had called it the name of the book. Anyway. Anyway, okay. So speaking of injuries, the Cubs have a whole lot of them in their pitching staff. They basically don't have a pitching staff or at least a starting rotation. And so they have made a trade with the Mets. Can we declare deadline season open? now? Is this a deadline move? Or is this? Because the Cubs acquired David Peterson from the Mets. Yeah. And really, they just, they need warm bodies at this point because Edward Cabrera just went on the IL. Ben Brown just went on the IL. Justin Steele not returning this year. And they already have Tyone and Boyd and Horton. Just everyone is hurt. Everyone is hurt. Other than Imanaka, basically, is like the last man standing. So they acquired David Peterson.

who has a 6ERA, and so that's the straits that they're in here. However, the FIP is fine. So if you want to, you know, glass half full, David Pearson, ground ball guy, get him out of that infield defense he's been pitching in front of in Queens, which made six infield errors of franchise records on Wednesday, which prompted, yeah, Gary Cohen, not Steve Cohen, but Gary to say that the team is in the depths of despair. I mean, what do you say at this point? I mean, this team is in the depths of despair. Can't get starting pitching to hold the other team at bay, struggling with their offense, and now the defense falls apart.

The depths of despair. Yeah, I'm not sure how much of it is the infield defense and how much of it is bad luck. But put David Peterson in front of Danesby Swanson and co. And maybe the ERA will start looking a little more. more like the fit. But really, they're desperate. So they just, they need anyone right now. And so I don't know whether this means, oh, Mets are open for business. And this is just the first domino of many to fall or whether, I mean, Peterson had fallen out of the Mets rotation. So I don't know if this is just kind of, these teams were just playing each other. And the Cubs have been beating up on the Mets.

Once and single-handedly, just taking it to the Mets. And so maybe they just thought, It's a marriage of convenience. You need a starter. We have David Peterson lying around. But he was one of the expendable, impending, free agent, expiring contract guys. We mentioned when we had a conversation earlier this season about will the Mets be sellers and what do they even have to move. He was one of the names we mentioned. And there's not maybe a ton to move.

So I don't know whether this is something that presages just like a, I don't know that this is a fire sale kind of candidate this team. but more to come, presumably, if they keep playing like this. That's a really bad baseball team, you know. I find the move on the one hand sort of obvious and curious on the Cubs part, if only because, sure, they are, I think, expected to get some of these guys back. And the NL Wild Cardfield is, you know, there's room to maneuver in the world. wildcard field. There are seven games back of the Brewers. I think that it's worth asking, like, okay, so let's imagine you're able to sort of find your way to October. What kind of hope do

you have there, though? Because, you know, what's the state of your pitching? You walked through all of the starters they have currently hurt. And as we mentioned, some of them will likely come back. They also have, like, most of a bullpen on the injured list. And so it's just, it's a touch curious, but they do have to play the rest of the season. So regardless of whether or not they have aspirations for more. Just pack it in. You know, they do have to keep going here.

It is only June 25th. I think that the Mets are a really bad baseball team. Not only bad from like a record perspective, not only might we find their playoff odds. wanting. They also are just like,

seem like they're a really rough watch. And I'm not trying to rub it into their fans. I am currently experiencing a more successful but still aggravating experience that is watching the Seattle Mariners. So you have my sympathies. But, you know, they have like a negative 46 run differential. They're pretty bang on their expected records. So I was just, um,

not surprised they're ready to move on. Now, I think that you could argue moving David Peterson doesn't really have to be a starting gun on a deadline race if you don't want it to. You could just move him, I guess, if you're, like, really enthusiastic about Cole Mathis, I suppose. Which presumably they were at least a little bit enthusiastic about Cole Mathis. But he was the prospect who went back, 35 plus for us, so, like, not a guy. But it's a weird trade because, like, David Peterson isn't good. Or at least he's not having a good time right now. He's having a bad time.

So, yeah. We're taking Sloan to her first big league game next month. And we're going to a Mets game when Otani is in town. And young Yankees fan, Ben, probably would have been a guest to know that I was taking my daughter to a Mets game before a Yankees game. But it was about, well, it's about the ballpark experience. I believe city is superior and it's about just prices of tickets or whatever else. But now I'm like, as you just said, maybe not the most watchable team. Am I going to just spoil her on baseball?

She's got to watch the Mets make six infield errors and say, I'm supposed to be impressed by this and that'll be that. So we'll see how that goes. I will have a report on the podcast. But it is, it's funny because the Cubs are concerned about the Cubs coming into the season was the lack of top of the rotation guys or the lack of just elite guys like who do you want in this rotation starting game one in a playoff series it was less about the depth it just seemed like they made the whole rotation out of depth and so the issue was going to be yeah who's your guy who's just going to shove who's you know your opponent's going to be afraid to face him right they didn't

seem like they had a dude yeah and and now they don't have the depth either so it's worse to both worlds really. So David Peterson doesn't help a whole lot. But I wouldn't be surprised if he pitches competently the rest of the way. It's just, yeah, they could use a little bit more than that. They could use a lot more than that. You don't have to be shy about saying that. That just seems like the obvious truth.

They need like a whole rotation. And they need at least a couple of those guys who could be, you know, reasonable playoff starters. And I don't know that they have anyone in-house right. now, now, maybe when guys come back, but you're still, you're still lacking of dudes. You are, you got no depth, no dudes. A couple other things. One on the other side of town, Jazz Chisholm got hit in the balls.

And a breaking ball fouled off of Chisholm. He felt that one. Remember, Jess fouled a ball off his foot last night. I don't know where he fouled this one off. I don't really want to know. I don't think it was the foot. Good look at this curveball right here. See, jazz hits right on the top of it.

Oh, that's why. That one will have you singing at a high pitch in the shower. He fouled a ball off of his groin, quite sensitive area. And I almost respect that he is sticking to his guns, and he is not going to be wearing a cup henceforth. He was not wearing a cup at that time. And he has not turned over a new leaf. He has not said, I've learned my lesson.

and I'm now going to don a cup. I question the wisdom of not wearing one. But if you weren't wearing one before, maybe he's onto something by not changing because of this one-time event, which this one-time event sounds like it was traumatic enough that many people probably would say, I don't want that to happen even one other time.

He described the pain level as a million. I don't know what scale that was on, one to ten it's a million so it was very painful yeah but he said i've never worn a cup i'm not going to change just an unlucky instance right there and you know i kind of respect that point of view i don't know that his risk analysis is is correct i would wear a cup to be clear i mean when i was playing baseball in eighth grade i was wearing a cup and no one was throwing hard or anything so I would wear one. But if he wasn't wearing one before, maybe it makes sense that he's not letting this one-time event change his mind.

Because he said this has never happened to him before at any level. You know, he's been playing baseball for a long time. And if the odds are what they are, if he says, well, this is sort of, you know, he's treating it like a black swan event. It's just like one of these things you can't anticipate. And, I mean, you could. and you could have worn a cup while long. Right. But if there's a downside to wearing a cup, I mean, it's uncomfortable.

And it's not as uncomfortable as the million-level pain that he suffered here. Right. So I don't know how to calculate slight discomfort multiplied by many, many games over one million, but it's only once. Or at least it's only once this time. I'm just saying like the cost-benefit analysis here, once you have decided. that you don't want to wear one all the time. Maybe one time of having this happen shouldn't actually change the calculus because you could say, oh, see, this could happen many more times and now I have to wear a cup forever.

And then he could wear a cup for the rest of his career and it could never happen again. And all that cup wearing would have been wasted aside from, I guess, whatever psychological comfort you get from knowing that you won't be subject to a million. It still hurts if you get hit in the cup even, but it's not going to be a million. So on the one hand, I don't understand the decision in the first place not to wear it. Right. But once he reached the decision that that was the right thing for him before, then I kind of think maybe not letting yourself be swayed by a one-time-only event that is very low probability.

Maybe he's onto something here. Ben, this is the dumbest thing you've ever said your entire time on this podcast. Galaxy brain. And look, I want to be clear. I respect and cherish you as a friend. And as a thinker, you know, I would submit that you are misfiring pretty badly on this particular one, though. I'm willing to allow that the odds of him suffering a further strike, not appreciably altered by it having happened once before. and honestly probably unlikely to be even correlated with him wearing a cup or not.

I don't think that there's been some thought that putting, say, football players in the big heavy helmets makes them a little more reckless, actually, than they would be if they weren't covered up now. I think everyone says, well, whether that's true or not, they're in a car accident. in every Sunday, so they got to just wear these helmets. Yeah, I brought that up one of the episodes you were away for recently when I talked about the catcher helmets and masks and preventing concussions. I brought up that effect, and the guest was like, yeah, you hear a lot about that, but it is still way better to wear the helmet. Yes, still way better to wear the helmet.

And so I'm not suggesting that Jazz, to be clear, is any more or less likely to get hit in the nuts again based on whether or not he wears it. a cup. But like, that also is independent from the, the inherent wisdom or lack thereof of deciding not to wear one. And, uh, I would submit the lack of wisdom

is profound. Here's the thing. It's not just about the temporary discomfort, significant though it may be. I'm sorry to say this to men. I know you all are appropriately freaked out, but like, guys, they rupture sometimes.

Oh yeah. You know? Yeah. as they say, don't get it twisted. You don't want to get the twisted down there. You want it to be a torsion-free zone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And this was not that. That didn't happen in this case. He just had to. Thankfully. Ice it down. But, yeah. And that has to be unpleasant, too, I would think. I would imagine icing that area doesn't feel awesome, even if it does offer some relief from the pain of getting a foul ball to the nuts.

but I think you should wear a cup. You should wear a cup. It's Ben. It's bonkers to suggest that he is taking some sort of intriguing or principled stand here. It's cuckoo bananas that he's not wearing a cup. You guys are so vulnerable down there, you know? And I'm not saying that like you're making it up. You're so vulnerable.

It doesn't take very much at all for you all. You all to be bent over sideways. What do you mean? He should, he, what? He should wear a cup. If Jazz wants there to be little baby jazzes someday, and maybe he doesn't, but if he does, got to protect, got to protect your business. You don't, you also, here's the thing I would say.

And maybe the discomfort part of it is more compelling than anything else. So I'm going to appeal, it feels weird to appeal to Jazz Chisholm Jr.'s vanity about his literal testicles, but I guess that's where this episode is going. Do you think John Brebe is so glad that he talked to me? Here's the thing I'll say to, I would say to Jazz, if I were, for whatever reason, asked by him what I think of his decision to wear a cup, which why would he ever ask me that? I know only a handful of things about Mitch Hanigur, and one of them is about his statistical rupturing. Like, that's a thing I know about him. And we are not friends, you know.

We don't exchange Christmas cards. I don't know his wife. It's a weird thing to know, but it's a thing I know about him, you know? So when you become one of the guys who has a nut rupture, that's one of the facts of your biography that really sticks to you. You know, it's a thing people remember, in part because so many baseball fans are men possessive testicles. and they know how it feels to, you know, just to, I mean, sometimes you guys just sit on them funny. And that's uncomfortable enough. Yeah, I'm sure it was just as memorable for him as for everyone else.

I'm sure. I'm sure it was more memorable for him. Yes. Although it was very memorable for other people, including me, because in that moment, I happened to be watching that game and happened to see it happen. And I thought to myself, huh, I wonder if. his His sack is fully intact.

That was the thing I thought about a person who works in you know, kind of my industry. That's weird. I shouldn't know about his nuts. Those are none of my business.

Forced to confront that thought multiple times in the history of the franchise. So I don't understand it and yet I do. There are certain things that are so catastrophic and so traumatic

that even if they are extremely low probability events, then you just, you do it. You always, You buckle up. You're not likely to get in the car accident, but you buckle up, even though sometimes that buckle kind of digs into your shoulder because it'll save you if that worst case scenario happens. And, you know, I guess you could say maybe the nutshot doesn't fall into that category if it's not a Hanager situation.

It's just a temporary fleeting million pain. But it's maybe it's bad enough for most people that they would happily wear. Cup, yeah. Unless he thinks like it's significantly impairing his performance, like it's so uncomfortable, there's so much chafing, you know, it's affecting his mobility, it's distracting. Who knows if that's his calculus here. I'm just saying it's, he's basically betting on lightning, not striking twice in the same place. Chafing? Is there that much chafing? Okay, I'm sorry, I'm going to take a different act. Not up in warrior cup. What's wrong with you? Like, I'm sorry. You have to endure all kinds of discomfort as a professional athlete.

Yes. And wouldn't you rather have fully functional testicles, really? Yes. Oh, I would. And, yeah, I want to make it clear. I'm pro cup. I would wear a cup. I did wear a cup.

I'm just sort of appreciating the intellectual consistency of just, hey, this didn't happen for years and years. He's being intellectually consistent about something dumb. Like, that's not admirable. That's just stubborn. Yeah, sometimes you get new information, which is, oh, that's how much that hurts. Right. Maybe I should integrate that new information into my calculus here. I can't believe that I'm the only person in this situation who cares about Jazz Just Holm Jr's balls.

That shouldn't be on me. They're none of my business. And his manager, Aaron Boone, said much the same as you. and they've had their differences in recent days because Jazz had a lollipop in his mouth on the field and Aaron Boone disapproved of that but he also disapproves of not wearing a cup he said he was surprised

well when he heard that Adrian Beltray one of the former mariners who did not wear a cup when Boone heard that Beltray never wore a cup he was surprised and Boone said and I quote in December going to hit soft toss I put a cup on that's the difference between this generation and my generation.

I did nothing with, I love that. That's the difference between. Wait, wait, I don't think it's a generational thing. I'm sorry, Aaron Boone. There have been dips, shit, men as long as there have been men. This is not a generational thing. I'm not calling jazz a dips. I'm saying this is dipshit behavior, but he is not a dipshit.

I do get the sense that players are a little more cup optional than they used to be. Are you serious? Boone says I did nothing without a cup, baseball related. The first time I heard Adrian Belcher I didn't wear a cup blew my mind, but now I know a lot of these guys don't wear cups. That's bonkers. Yeah, when the White Sox, then minor leaguer, who made his debut this year, Duncan Davitt was on the podcast. I asked him about it. And he said a lot of guys don't.

And it depends on the position, obviously, if you're an outfielder or something, it's a little different. You still have to hit, though. You still have to hit, though. Yeah, and Jess said, so this ESPN story, or maybe it's an AP story, says he never wore a cup in the minor leagues where it is mandatory. I was not aware that it was mandatory. Okay, wait. How do they know? Yeah.

They doing a. I guess they weren't doing the cup. Yeah, the nut tap. Yeah. I have this vision of the manager being like, all right, fellows, line up. And then I, ding, doy, do it, yeah. And then, oh, and then you double over. Right.

Yeah. So he said he didn't wear one. I was not aware that cups are mandatory in the minors, but not that I don't, is that true? But if it was, it was not enforced because he said he never wore one. So, yeah, I think that there is sort of a trend. I've just gotten the sense, you know, not everyone declares their cup status publicly. Right. But my perception just from reading things, just I get the sense that not everyone wears one the way that they used to.

So, I don't know. Okay. I'm not sure why you wouldn't. I mean, the balls, the baseballs, that is, are traveling faster than he ever did. Yeah, you would think that you would have the most incentive to wear them now. Can we lay this at the feet of some podcaster? Is this a podcaster's fault? Is this like someone, is Joe Rogan telling these boys that if you wear a cup, it's going to decrease.

Everyone's an in-cell. so they don't need their balls anyway or something? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Who knows? Yeah. Now I'm just, nobody tell RFK Jr. about the cup stuff, okay? Like, just like everybody, we're keeping that to ourselves because I can't listen to that

gravely man talk about sperm count anymore. I can't. I can't. It's making me crazy. I do want to talk about baseballs because they've been more variable this year, but I'll save that for next time. It's puzzling, though. lately there's been less

resistance on those suckers for whatever reason. Anyway, just quickly, I keep saying and thinking this will be the last time that we'll have to talk about the fallout from Pride Night stuff. And we are kind of past talking about the actual Pride Night now. We're just talking about

the response to the Pride Night. And so this week Giants organization, not covering itself in glory, Buster Posey called what has to be one of the more pointless press conferences. I don't know what the thinking was. Was it just, well, we got to put someone out there, we got to say something, but he just wasn't prepared to say anything about anything.

And even the Rafael Devers situation, which they've all done some damage control and sort of smoothed it over and Devers said he apologized and whatever else. But when Posey... Tony Vitello, like, quoted the town. Quoted the town for some reason. Right, but didn't have the like gumption to do the actual full. quote and so just sounded like he only vaguely knew of the town. You guys, tighten up over there, man. If he came over to my condo and said, I need your help, you can't ask about it, we're going to do some damage.

All I'd say is whose car we're going to take. So they put Posey out there, and he wasn't really prepared to talk about Devers because he hadn't talked to Devers himself at that point. So it was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And what he did was make a very brief, just kind of wishy-washy acknowledgement of the Pride Night controversy and was basically just like, we know there are strong feelings about this or something. And so out of respect, I'm clamming up and not saying anything. That's basically what he said.

That was kind of the preamble. And then he said, I'm just going to take baseball questions. And then in response to every subsequent question was just like, just baseball questions, just baseball questions. Did you object to those nights when you were a player? And also did you or anyone from the organization talk to Tony, talk to the players, and explain the importance of this demographic to your business, the importance of this evening for the fans? I mentioned that I'm not going to revisit it. So if anyone want to ask baseball questions, I'll answer baseball questions.

Are you going to reach out to the gay community about any of this or no? Again, if you want to go to baseball questions, I made my statement on it. I'll answer baseball questions. But you have no response to the commissioner saying inadequate and non-clear communication. I'll answer baseball questions. Professor, why do you want to only answer baseball questions? There are some very important matters that the public is debating outside this organization. I'm going to answer baseball questions.

Do you feel it's not your job as baseball, president of baseball operations? I mean, is this something we should be talking to Larry about? guys, we just need to keep it baseball related or... He got bailed out by the media relations guy eventually. But, you know, as the reporters present were pointing out, these are baseball questions because it has become about baseball. This is something that happened in a baseball game. And also Rob Enfrid in his letter that he sent to Josh, not Noah, Holly,

kind of threw the Giants under the bus a bit because he suggested, that the Giants had not properly communicated to their players that they had the option to opt out and wear the regular cap instead of the Pride cap, which I can certainly believe that the Giants communication is dysfunctional, but I don't know that that completely makes sense to me. I mean, for one thing, Sam Hinchis was wearing the regular cap, right? So he must have heard that he had the option to do that. And weren't all of the guys who opted to write Bible verses on their hats on the Giants last year? Yeah, I guess that's true.

And they had certainly had some conversations in the days and weeks leading up to that. I don't know with whom exactly, but other members of the team. So I don't know if that was just a little cover your ass from Manfred, where he was not fully groveling and throwing himself on the mercy of the Senate, but was kind of bending over backward to point out that this was not any kind of discrimination, which I don't really think it was. And to be clear, it doesn't seem like the players did either based on what they said. Exactly, right. And so, you know, he was citing all the policies and everything and talking about how the players weren't and won't be punished for this, which is true.

We went through all the CBA provisions about it and everything. But he did throw some blame on the Giants there. The Giants caught some strays. And so I don't know. Maybe Posey is in a situation where he didn't want to throw Vitello under the bus or he didn't want to. to contradict what the commissioner said, you know, maybe it was a little bit of an awkward situation for him. But you can't just no comment and say just baseball questions when these are clearly baseball related. And I don't know what he expected in that moment, right? Is that just his

lack of experience as an executive? I mean, he certainly has plenty of experience talking to baseball reporters. So he could have been briefed better, at least for that, so that just he could offered some pablum he could have just served up some warmed over whatever we appreciate the fans we want everyone to feel welcome and it probably would have just blown over and you know some people wouldn't have been satisfied unless he had a real full-throated endorsement and condemnation or whatever but he could have said something right that kind of just didn't inflame the situation and he did the opposite of that and then subsequently he was supposed to do a knbr radio spot and he was replaced by Larry Bayer, the longtime CEO of the team, and he had some, you know, kind of more or less mealy-mouthed, like, you know, we're listening and we want to continue to have these conversations, but also we want to move on, basically.

So they are in a situation where obviously they're not going to make everyone happy and the worst possible people are going to jump all over anything they say. but they really have not, I think, shown themselves to be prepared for what was going to happen here. Yeah, it's a little, it's a little bit odd because the prior reporting around this suggests that there were internal conversations around the team wearing the hat. And I don't know that we know for sure that the three guys who wrote Bible verses were aware in a way that Sam Hensches seems to have been, that they could have worn their default Giants cap as an alternative to this. I think the possibility exists that they knew that and decided they wanted to say something up until the point that people kept asking about them about what they wanted to say. But the particulars of that aside, I think that the part of it that I find the most surprising

is to your point. There just seems to be like an obvious, at least headfake to offer here to say, you know, major league baseball's policy suggests that, you know, what Sam did is the approved means of sort of navigating the situation for players who aren't comfortable wearing it. We've had a conversation with Landon and his pals about the appropriate path forward, consistent with the warning that they received from Major League Baseball, but I, Buster Posey, want to be clear that we view the LGBTQ community as an important part of our fan base and city. We want them to feel welcome at the ballpark. We want our pride event to be a celebration

and embrace of that community. And we are sorry that this year's version of it failed to live up to those goals and ideals. And we pledge to do better going forward. You're right that that would not have satisfied everyone. It would have further inflamed the Josh Hollies of the world who seem to be unable to think about anything else than other people's business. And, you know, it probably would not have satisfied many of the people who were initially offended by Roops and Burbakers, et cetera, as protests. But it would have been something, and it would have been something more direct. It would have suggested that he has an appreciation for the situation they find themselves in and have put themselves in, which is, you're a bad baseball team that is also failing to enter

and galvanize the people who care about it. That's your fix, Buster. And your job as a senior executive is to try to help your team find its way out of there. Maybe you should focus on that. You don't seem to be very good at building a roster. So try something else. You know what I mean?

It's just like sometimes when these guys can't muster up even the like face saving stuff, it's like, do you either not appreciate the, the sort of seriousness of this moment or fundamentally, do you agree with Landon Rup? You know what I mean? And we don't,

he never, to my knowledge, has answered questions on that score. And so I don't want to tag him with something that isn't true to him, but, you know, you're in a weird spot. Now, I also appreciate, or at least understand,

that the political orientation of the majority owner might put Buster Posey in a position where he feels like he can't speak freely on this issue lest he offend his actual boss. But to that I would say,

hey, Buster, who's firing you? You know what I mean? You're part of the ownership group too. You know? Like, and you've made your money. You've, this is a bad situation. Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be a little favor to you if you got fired? Really?

This isn't going well, you know? You seem like you're, uh, you have constructed and lit the match to O Tire Fire. So I don't know. It's just such a, it's a really unfortunate thing because as we said in the initial conversation we had about this, this event isn't supposed to be about any of these Yahoo's, right?

It's not supposed to be about any of the chuckleheads that can't see their way past their own discomfort with other people's personal lives. It's supposed to be about this community. And it's one that has a really longstanding, you know, place in. San Francisco. And I wish that that were the focus, but it's not because these guys can't stop tripping over their own dicks about it. I don't know, man. This is like the, this is the PR equivalent of not wearing a cup, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they outlawed this sort of event or team-specific celebrations with team-specific uniforms for a single game after 2023 for every team

except the Dodgers and Giants who got an exemption basically because, yeah, you know, the large community is there and just the history of the organizations and everything. And so they're the lone holdouts who are still doing something like this. Everyone but the Rangers is doing a pride event of some sort, but when it comes to actual uniforms. Right. And probably there are a lot of other teams that are thinking, whof, glad we couldn't get ourselves into this sort of situation, you know, because, and that's unfortunate, but I wonder, the Dodgers, you know, this year, they had a couple players just wear the regular cap wasn't that big a deal, right? Didn't blow up like this has. Right.

It was noted, but I think in general, it was moved on from fairly quickly, too. Yeah, it was more muted, yeah. And, of course, they had done their ceremony recognizing Burke and Bean too. But, yeah, so I just, I wonder whether even the last holdouts here, whether, whether, come next year, how will they handle this? Will they say, we don't want to do this anymore either? Right. Because, boy, what a cluster that was.

Or will they take some preemptive steps? And I kind of hate that all eyes will be on that, you know? Right. I'm sure they'll have some pride nights or some pride event regardless, but they got to be, you know, now you go into it kind of bracing yourself for, oh, no, what are the players going to do? And what is everyone else going to say? And that shouldn't be what it's about. Right.

So that's an unfortunate follow. out from this. So I want to talk next time, because we're doing another pod tomorrow, about the baseballs and about Dalton rushing, clashing with Shohei in their most recent outing together in other things. And maybe next time we can go over some of the specifics of the most recent MLB proposals in bargaining. Again, I don't want to get too sucked into the horse race style coverage of this stuff because it's just so early and it's just premature really to read that much significance. But some of these things are so just really radical that like last time we talked about the amateur side stuff because it was really like, wow, if this is what they're

aiming for. And the economic proposals on Thursday that were exchanged or that MLB shared with the public and people on official MLB social media channels and also the press and everyone. I got it on Instagram. Also, quite sweeping and striking. And so we will probably get into that a little bit. I think just my mean takeaway is just that, like, well, for one thing, MLB just seems to be really looking to other sports and saying we are copying what the NFL does and what other

salary-capped leagues do and everything. I mean, from the restrictions on free agency that were just proposed to the amateur restrictions we talked about last time and length of contracts and the salary cap itself, it's very much, hey, how can we just import what these other leagues have? And that's the messaging, too, to the public is just, hey, all these other leagues have salary caps and they have this and that, and we're just doing what they did or trying to do what they did. And that's probably a pretty effective message for many fans, I would guess, who follow those other sports and think of MLB as the outlier.

And why don't they just get on board with all the other leagues? So it is interesting. I wonder how much coordination there is between MLB owners and owners of other leagues. Obviously, there are some owners who own franchises in multiple leagues in sports, but I wonder if they have coordinated, communicated about this stuff. Yeah. The common element, though, is in those leagues that got the cap and all these other measures that MLB owners are seeking now.

They had to break the union to get those things. And they had to, in some cases, call up the scrubs or have a season canceled or whatever to get that. And I just, I still continue to doubt that MLB owners have the stomach for that this time around. We'll see. The other thing that has stood out to me is that these are like, I know they're opening offers, but they're still quite drastic in many cases. And I know that maybe the negotiating strategy might be, okay, we'll start with this wild proposal.

We're never going to get. And then everyone will be anchored to that. and then we will slowly come to the middle. But the more we move the Overton window or whatever, you know, we start more extreme than when we inevitably end up in the middle somewhere, it'll be closer to our side if we propose something that's really ambitious. But that could backfire also. And it might turn out to be just the opposite,

where you overreach with your initial asks, and then that rallies resistance, or it makes the other side less willing to listen to you, or to think that you're bargaining in good faith. So we'll see how that works out too. But that sort of seems to be the strategy. It's like, let's totally shoot for the moon here. Yeah.

And then maybe we'll wind up with more of what we want. But I don't know. It's a bold strategy. We'll see if that works out for them. Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, their approach in the last CBA negotiation was to really refuse to come to the table much at all prior to, certainly during the season. We've seen, as we discussed, when the Players' Association's proposal came out and then

the league responded so quickly, it feels like we are seeing more action earlier in this round, but I think, I don't know that I would characterize it as being all that much more productive. Because all of these. proposals from the league's perspective are at least partially dependent on the institution of a cap and floor because many of them would lack sort of a mechanism by which to make them happen if that system isn't there for them. And so I'm skeptical that what we end up with will look remotely like this when it's all said and done. But we'll just see. We'll get into some of the more granular proposals next time just to, you know, make sure everyone's sort of keeping up with where

the two parties are sitting. But the punchline is no closer together than they were the last time we went through any of this stuff. So, all right, more to come and soon. And more to come immediately because I'm about to talk to John Brebia and we will get into some CBA stuff, just kind of taking his temperature and getting a reading on how the players are feeling mood-wise about all of this. but we'll take a quick break, and then we'll be back with Brebia, and we'll pick up mid-conversation. How are you? I'm okay. We got so much to do delay.

Break it balls and blaking snows, and those stats won't blast themselves. Effectively wild. Effectively wild. Hope you're not. sacrificing any exciting off-day plans. No, about 20 minutes of pool time. That's about it. 20 minutes in the sun that I don't need, so this is actually perfect.

Oh, yeah. I'm with you on that. It doesn't matter what SPF I employ. They have not yet, the scientists in the lab have not yet created the level of SPS that would protect people with our complexion. Yeah, so I need my lead coat, my lead overcoat to keep it all out. And the beard. That's why you just grow the beard longer and longer to come.

Yeah, this is not a baseball thing. It gets longer as the summer goes on. Sun, I know that, you know, players' skin cancer can be a concern later in life because baseball players get a lot of sun, even with the caps and the glasses and everything. So are baseball players typically pretty diligent about applying and reapplying, or are they kind of cavalier when it comes to sun protection? You get a healthy mix. I think most people are going to. lean towards cautious, but you'd be crazy to think that everyone that you come across is going to be that way. So you get a healthy, just like anything else in life, you get a healthy balance, right?

Yeah, or an unhealthy balance. Or an unhealthy balance. It's depending, yeah, for sure. And I guess if you were using sunscreen and rosin or some kind of combination to get a better grip, maybe you can get in trouble for that these days. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gone are those days. Too sad to see it go, I'm sure. So long anyway. I'm sure many pitchers would agree. Yes, not you. Yes, no comment, no, of course.

Well, you are back in the big leagues. Congrats. And you are back on Effectively Wild. How would you compare just getting the call to come back on the podcast compared to getting the call to come up to Colorado? My heart was dangerously skipping beats when I saw your email. Naturally, I was very excited about Major League Baseball, but when I popped open that email and I saw you reached out, I almost fell out of my chair for sure. Yeah, the pay bump is not quite equivalent coming on the podcast versus the big leagues, but, you know, the prestige. Yes, it's for the love of the game, you know?

Yeah, it's the intangibles, I guess. And I would like it to be known that I invited you back on the podcast well before you got called up again. So I am no bandwagon Brebeah fan just uninterested until you're up in the show again. I don't care what level you're pitching at. You're always welcome on the podcast. That is much appreciated. Yeah, can confirm on the record that it was well before this. And I'm pretty sure I want to say that I was like getting shelled when you sent me that email.

So that's even more noteworthy. Yeah, true supporter. Through thick and thin. Now, how did they break the news? about a call-up when it's not your first time. It's far from your first time when you're a veteran. Because if you're a rookie getting the call for the first time, sometimes they do pranks and hidden cameras and it's on social media and all the rest of it.

If it's you, is it just, how do they break that news to a veteran? It's a little bit more business. And I will say we had kind of, because of the timing, you know, I was in Albuquerque in that time zone, all of the basis. baseball stuff really goes through my agent who is East Coast times. And it was very late at night in Albuquerque in New Mexico. So there was some funny timing where like, well, you know, my agent went to sleep. He's not going to stay up until 2 in the morning, you know, like waiting for this phone call. So it was actually extra funny where the Rockies reached out and they were like, hey, we know you're awake because the game just finished.

But this is what we want to do. We know that you want to get in touch with your agent. So it was kind of this like very business like transaction. And of course, my agent, you know, I cut back to us very quickly because that is that is what he does. very good at it. But yeah, it was normally it's a lot less, I don't want to say hoopla, that takes away from it, but that exciting, are we going to prank them? Are we going to do this? You know, is the whole team going to crowd around? Like, that's, the romanticism of that first call-up is awesome. And, but yeah, then at this point for me, it's it. And last year was the same with the

Braves at the end of the season, where it was just like, let's get this business done. And let's take care of it. So I got to tell you, however you do it, it's, it feels good. Yeah, I'm sure it does. Yeah, it's good to say, because even if you've got eight years in coming into this year like you do, you never know. At some point, it's going to be the end for everyone. Absolutely. I'm sure you're bouncing around hoping that call is going to come, but you can't take it for granted.

So, and after you've been with a few teams, I'm sure it is quite a relief and a thrill, even if it's not ever like the first time again. Yeah. No, yeah, absolutely. It's like, I can't imagine a scenario where it won't feel good. So if it ever does, if I ever tell you, oh, you know, it wasn't that exciting, it's time. It's time for me to go. I'm going to move on. But so far, so far it's being great.

Yeah. So you have been on the move. I guess we could call you a journeyman over the past year, maybe. Yeah. Just the last time we talked, which was a little more than 13 months ago, you were with the Tigers. And since then, you've been with the Braves, the Rockies, the Twins, the Twins. Now the Rockies again. So take me through the various employers and team changes.

Yeah, so going from the Tigers to the Braves last year, you know, very much, Tigers deservedly so. They were a great organization, nothing bad to say. They did the right thing. I was terrible. So they moved on from me. And that just kind of started this whole like, okay, well, we got to make some big changes. Because, you know, I love ball, want to play.

So got to the Braves and started to implement some of those changes. And some things worked. Some things didn't. Ended up having what the Braves was considered a good enough time there to get called up for just a little bit. And then, you know, to be honest, I couldn't tell you exactly how the end of that season went. But I know that I gave up a couple of runs eventually at some point. And the Braves said no more. And I actually spent the last few days with the Red Sox.

That's right. Yeah. At the very, very end of the season. Yeah. Yeah, hit the IL for getting sick, so never actually ended up playing with them, which was a whole other fun adventure I can make a note of in my little wacky things that happen in baseball list. And yeah, it's sort of been ever since just attempting to restructure, reorganize, find out what works, find out what doesn't. I was fortunate enough to be able to sign with the Rockies this offseason and learn some new things in camp with them and test some new things out in camp with them. You know, not making the opening day roster.

So I opted out and took a chance somewhere else, you know, kind of constantly looking for, constantly looking for that chance to play Major League Baseball. Opted out with the Twins because that chance didn't come up and came back. So it's been, yeah, I'm grateful for all the opportunities given for sure. But it's definitely been kind of a funny, kind of a funny ride to see how, to see how all of that works. Yeah. Was your illness with the Red Sox? Was that just your sort of standard?

flu-like symptoms or because I'm always surprised by what players are able to play through or push themselves to play through even if they shouldn't but who we've all seen the guys just spewing on the mound and you know sometimes that's yeah sometimes it's nerves sometimes it's uh just you know under hydrating overhydrating whatever but sometimes guys are just ill and most of us would be in bed yeah there's something is going to go around to clubhouse at least once a year. For me, I actually, I got hand foot and mouth disease. Oh, wow.

Yeah, it was extremely mild, as I have had it in, when I took an off-season baseball trip to Japan in 2018, I got it there. And the symptoms were much less comfortable than they were this last time around. And I'll never forget asking the Google search bar when I first kind of saw the symptoms and thought, wow, this reminds me of seven years ago. Like, this is, there's no way. And I said, hey, Google, you know, is this hand foot and mouth? You know, I've had it before.

And Google promptly said, oh, there's no way, buddy. It's almost impossible for adults to get it twice. Yeah. And lo and behold, I am the almost part of that impossible. Thanks. AI summary. Never scares you run. Yeah.

Yeah. So I actually felt, I physically I felt okay. And I was continuing to do baseball stuff. But I was very contagious, and if someone else gets it worse than I do, you know, it'll hijack a team's roster if everyone has it. So it was one of those things where they're like, we got to have X number of days where he just kind of can't be around people. And that would have taken us to the end of the season.

So both myself and the team more or less agreed, like, well, let's just go home. There's no point in just standing here for 10 days and then leaving. We don't want everyone being in full. affected by John Brevia, but yeah, I was wondering if you caught it from your kid or something, because that was going around my daughter's pre-K class last year. And that was another thing. Yeah, kids can get it. And then because I'm a Taylor Sheridan sicko, I was watching Dutton Ranch the other day.

And now when, you know, the herd catches, I guess it would be hoof and mouth because we don't have hooves, but they had to put down the whole herd. So fortunately, that didn't happen to you. Yes. Yeah. Thank goodness. I rebounded from it. So how disruptive is this for your family, then, just kind of not knowing where you're going

to be playing in any given year or month? Yeah, I mean, it's highly disruptive, right? But it's also worth it. Like, yeah, are they bouncing around? They actually came out to visit, and they were halfway through their trip out to see me when I got called up with the Rockies. So they did a last, you know, they flew out to Albuquerque and then we did this last minute, you know, midnight to 1 o'clock in the morning. My wife and I are like trying to figure out packing and are they going to drive to Colorado, fly?

Can we change our flights? You know, like a little bit of this chaos. And they ended up driving up to Colorado. So there, it sure, it is absolutely disruptive. But it's, A, it's partially expected just because of the lifestyle. And B, it's so worth it, you know, the experiences that the family gets to have and all that stuff. Now, I have significantly fewer experiences traveling with tired kids, sticking them in a long car ride, unpacking all their stuff at yet another hotel. So my wife is absolutely not a complainer, but I would have to imagine that there are a few less smiles and a few more frowns that she's dragging kids across the country all the time.

But it's part of it, and it makes it so worth it to be able to do a lot of different things and a lot of fun stuff across these different cities. And how do you evaluate your prospects then when it comes time to opt out or not opt out? I guess sometimes you have what's called an upward mobility clause maybe, right? Which I want one of those. That sounds nice. But if you don't get the call by a certain time, then you can become a free agent. but you have to assess, am I going to be better off somewhere else? And so I'm sure you're getting some indication from the organization about whether they have plans to call you up.

And then your agent's probably putting out feelers, I imagine. But how do you figure out this is my best bet? There are so many different circumstances and situations when it comes to those opt-outs and the mobility stuff. And I'm kind of only lightly familiar with some of it. my agent my goodness what a guy i've known him for for the majority has it been the majority of my life half my life i mean my goodness he's he's much more he's much more an incredibly close friend a best friend than he is an agent at times um most of the time but he is constantly doing work and he's constantly assessing other teams and looking for the best opportunity to to play majorly baseball

or, you know, the opportunity that would be best for me and my family. So when you negotiate those opt-outs and those dates into contracts, as the time gets close, I try not to play, you know, armchair GM because I have such little experience with that. You know, I can't imagine how far off my input or advice would be if I were just giving it to myself. So I rely very heavily. Yeah. I rely very heavily on my agent Joe, and he does a great job, you know, getting those feelers out there and assessing other teams and looking for places that are the right fit. And then we go.

Then we pack up and then we go. It's an interesting process. And a lot of people have very different experiences with the two based on the things in their contract. So there's so much that can happen. And I don't want to make you demean your current team because the Rockies are much improved this year from last year. But last year, of course, they struggled, would be putting it lightly, right? This is one of the worst teams of all time. I'll say it, so you don't have to.

So I'd imagine when you're sort of surveying the market and you're thinking who might need simple pen help at some point this season, maybe even though there are guys now who are having much better years, evaluating it after last year, you have to think that might not be the worst place to take a shot at it. Yeah, from my perspective, I was in. spring training with the Rockies. So I was fortunate enough to see it from a, what is this new front office? What is this new pitching staff? What is this new coaching staff? What are they doing? How are they approaching games? How are they approaching their team? What are they teaching? Regardless of

the players around me. And once I did take a little bit look, a little bit closer look at the players around me, I mean, my goodness did I see a lot of talent? There's a lot of release. I'm atrocious at assessing position player talent. I hope that I'm okay, even just okay, you know, slightly below average to slightly above average would be a blessing at assessing pitching talent. But I was constantly impressed

by the arms around me, as I am largely impressed by a lot of arms across baseball at the AAA and Major League level. Like these guys are very talented. For me as John the player, it was funny enough, a lot less opportunity

on teams, like you're talking about you. I'm I'm sure that's probably something my agent assessed. But for me, it was a lot of, well, where can I be, where can I be the best pitcher that I can be? Um, because at the end of the day, you want to do as well as possible. And then you cross your fingers that as well as possible is good enough to be in the big leagues. Um, because that's kind of the, that's the goal. And getting the experience with this staff and with, with the pitchers around me, you know, helping each other a lot in spring training. It does. definitely stuck with me where I was like, man, this is this is a place where I feel like I can learn a lot and I can bounce ideas off people. And it's a good atmosphere. And it's a team that it's a team that plays with, you know, a little fire and a little excitement and they want to win and they grind away, you know, no matter what the score is, no matter what the inning is. And that type of team approach is something that I like to be a part of. It makes for exciting baseball. Yeah. So yes, I think all the things that you were talking about is something that is absolutely valid. I would say that that's,

For me, that's a lot more of something that I'm sure my agent will assess versus what I will assess. And for years, the Rockies were perceived to be behind the curve and slow to adopt new ideas, new technology, and there were even players who would come out and be frustrated by the lack of resources or even resistance in some cases. But with a new regime, that seems to have changed. You have some guys on that team who have made major changes seemingly, even someone like Anteastern. Antonio Centiella, who has been there his whole career. He's been there forever. But he has made some changes. He's throwing a lot fewer four seamers. He picked up a cutter. He's doing lots of things differently. And he's having a career year now with a completely different pitch mix. And so I wonder what

you have observed about, even if you weren't there before, how the team has modernized and tried to catch up as quickly as it could. I only know some of those same things that you talked about. prior to this new generation of staff in front office. But yes, I had heard those same things where they were a little bit more reluctant or resistant to big sweeping changes that other teams were making. My experience coming into spring training with all new staff and stuff like that was, as expected, you know, the polar opposite. It was, let's see what we can do.

Let's modernize as quickly as possible. some of the staff that was here, Gabe Rebus and Matt Daniels, I had worked within the past with the tigers and with the giants. And I got to know them a little bit and respected them a lot. And when I got to spring training and saw what they were doing, it was very much what their goal was. Let's take all this information. Let's supply it as best as we can. And for me personally, I showed up and they said, hey, we're going to try X, Y, and Z. Tell us what you think.

And I did it. And then when X, Y, and Z was, you know, some of it I liked. Some of it I wasn't very good at. We tried, okay, let's do L, M, and N. And we try, you know, and maybe one of those stuck and so, you know, go through your litany of letters and see what works and all that stuff. And I, it appears that that is a similar approach that they may have taken with other guys. We think, you know, however many things could possibly work, let's try them out.

And I think some of that is sticking. And I think you're seeing, you know, there was a lot of raw talent, I thought, on the team. And I think a lot of that raw talent is turning into really incredible Major League Baseball players, which I think is so fun to see. Plus, I do, I enjoy the stuff, the guys that I've known prior to signing with the Rockies this year. I've seen a lot of their work and respected a lot of their work. So it's fun to see it up close in action. So what has and hasn't worked for you as far as tweaks that you've implemented or tried to implement, whether with the Rockies or with the Braves before or whomever? Yeah, the second that I retire, I will answer that question to the fullest extent.

I can't imagine anyone cares all that much about doing a scattering report on me at this point, but just in case there's one person out there who wants to know precisely what I'm doing because they have this sick desire to hit a thousand foot home run off of me. I just cannot give away. I won't say anything specific, but to be honest, is it is remarkably simple where it's we see we saw this trend in baseball where it was leaning really really heavily into pitch shapes and numbers and statistics and all of that stuff gave us a lot of really good information and now all of that really good information looks like

it's leaning towards okay how do we apply it to the more traditional approach of baseball where it's like mixed speeds up down in out how can we how can we sort of combine the best of both world. So the changes that I've been making have been as best as I can trying to apply the best of both worlds. What new stuff can I learn because of the technology and the minds behind it? And then how can I apply that to the best way to pitch and to get guys out and to use that art of baseball with the science of baseball? And it's been very cool and it's been very fun to experience. It's been very fun to watch. And with a lot of the guys around me who are like just have electric arms and lightning stuff.

It's so fun to watch that. I'm having fun doing it myself, but I'm very boring to watch. They are so exciting to watch do it. So it's very fun. Can't wait for the tell-all post-retirement interview where you reveal everything. I can promise it's going to be a letdown, but...

Hopefully it won't be for a while because the changes work so well. That's what we're crossing our fingers for. One thing the Rockies were at least experimenting with this year, I know was calling pitches from the dugout, which is something that the Marlins introduced at the big league level last year, and the Marlins' former pitching coach is now the Rocky's current pitching coach. And as I understand it, it's kind of collaborative. And I don't know how it's evolved since you were there this spring, but this is something that seems to be catching on

around the league, which I have some reservations about just as a spectator, just because I kind like the idea that the players are making up their own minds and doing their own thing, even as I understand that there probably is an advantage to be gained there, if you have the smart number crunching people running the numbers on what the best pitches to throw in each situation would be. So how have you experienced that or how have you witnessed that being implemented? How has that work for you? It's funny you say that. That's like, that's that blend of art and science that I think is sort of that next super valuable

step, super important step in progressing baseball. I'm, I am definitely a little bit of a romantic. As a baseball fan, I'm a romantic. I want to see the starter go, if they are at eight innings, 97 pitches

and they're three times through the lineup, maybe coming up on a fourth, I want to see him throw that complete game. That's so cool. I know it's statistically not the right choice, but the fan in me wants to see him, wants to see him go nine. Plus, you've got to get into the game, though.

Yeah. The pitcher in me wants to save in the ninth. But yeah, so there's, it's funny. I'm, I'm battling a little bit of what I enjoy watching as a fan versus what, what is the right decision as a, as a baseball player. I've thrown two innings with the Rockies in the big leagues. So my sample size is remarkably small. Two scoreless.

Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, thank goodness. Despite, I want to say, there being an average exit velocity of 110 miles an hour on a few of those fortunately foul balls. But yeah, I think that across baseball, you're seeing it a lot more pitch calling coming from the dugout. And I think that we're in a little bit of a trial and error phase of when is there a correct pitch to throw based on what a hitter can and can't do versus what a pitcher can and can't do. and when is it a little bit more feel? What did that previous hitter swing look like? What pitches have they seen today? Because there are just so many variables that go into throwing the quote-unquote correct pitch

that I think it makes it the concept of calling pitches from the dugout, I think, is really strong. But it's the application that teams are trying to figure out right now. In my two innings, I couldn't tell you. I can't tell you what's, you know, if it's perfect or imperfect or where there can be, you know, benefits or advantages taken from it. But I think because a lot of teams are doing it, I think that it's something that's really exciting to see what will work and what won't work. That's also kind of exciting too. I hope I'm not the one that's experiencing out there when it doesn't work. But I definitely think there's a middle ground where, you know, players on the field are going to have.

have to go with her gut. But then they're also should be taking suggestions from the dugout. I think most teams are calling them pitch suggestions more than pitch calling, which I think is a very fair way to look at it. But yeah, as a fan, I love seeing the pitchers and catchers do it. But as a player, it's like, no, sometimes I don't know what to do. Sometimes I have absolutely no idea. Because guess what?

Maybe I forgot. Oh, shoot. Is this the guy that can hit foul? He's this guy that can't hit fastballs down away. And when you see so many different names and so many different hitters, Skynor reports can just be tricky to remember. So it's really nice to have that help from the dugout. Yeah.

So are you even conscious of how the signs are being relayed then? I don't know if you're someone who typically just whatever the catcher tells you, you do or whether it's more of a two-way street. But if the catcher's getting signs from the dugout, like I guess what Brett Sullivan was catching you in your rock. So are you even aware of how the sign is coming to you? Or is it just, well, the voice in my pitchcom said through this. Yeah, the pitchcom lord is giving you signs. The, you know, so we, there was an outing in spring training where it was coming from the dugout.

And maybe because I knew that that was going to be the first outing where we did it, I was paying a little closer attention. But I could, in spring training, I could definitely, I was standing there and I could watch the catcher look in, get the sign and give it to me. The other day, to be totally honest, I wasn't quite as focused on it. So I did not notice the catcher looking in or however they're relaying signs or whatever it may be. If you had asked me right after the game, hey, was he getting signs from the dugout? I would have said, oh, you know what? I don't know.

Maybe. So he could have or he could not have. I actually don't know. Either way, the inning was, you know, the pace of the inning was totally fine. So if they were doing it, it wasn't getting in the way of anything. So are you having to change your conditioning routine at all to adjust to the altitude? I know you're in Minnesota as we speak, so you're not gasping for breath during our interview or anything. But are you doing more wind sprints or fewer wind sprints or what's the plan?

Yeah, that's, that's funny. Yeah, if I was in Denver doing this interview, it would have been over 10 minutes ago because I'd be huffing and puffing. Now, the, I got, let's see, I was in, I signed with with the Rocky. and went to Albuquerque two and a half weeks ago, maybe three weeks ago. And Albuquerque is a higher altitude than course. So I was there for a few days. We did a road trip for a couple of weeks too in Salt Lake and Tacoma. So Tacoma's more sea level.

Salt Lake's a good bit higher. So I've somewhat conditioned myself on those road trips. And then for about a week in Albuquerque, yeah, you got to hit the cardio a little bit more. that run in from the bullpen to you. I mean, I am just praying that the umpire checks my hands halfway through because then I can sit there and be like, look, I'm tired. I know you're tired from standing out here working all day. Just let me count to three before I, before you start that clock and I can run in there.

Got to get a bullpen cart in action there. Yeah, right? Yeah, people might finally start taking it. But no, you change it up a little bit, but you know, you power through when you can. Now, you are, as we speak, don't want to do. jinx anything, but I think you're on a 10-game scoreless streak if we combine levels and organizations. So watch out Christopher Sanchez, Oral Hershey's, you're coming for them.

Yeah, I'm sure. And that helped earn this call-up for you. And when you were with St. Paul in AAA for the Twins, you were pitching pretty well strikeout and walk rate-wise, but you just had a few bad outings in there, which I guess any pitcher can say, well, if you just took out the few bad games, then my ear would be great. But, you know, there was like one three homer game, right, which sort of screwed things up for you. Don't forget the two doubles off the wall, too. Don't forget that if the wall was just a little bit lower, it would have been a five-homber game.

If you'd been in Albuquerque or Denver. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So did a switch flip at some point when you went to Albuquerque? You have not given up a run as a member of the Rockies organization. So is that coincidence luck, or is that one of the mysterious? changes that you may or may not have implemented. Shear luck for sure. No, there's

throughout spring training in the beginning of the season when I started with St. Paul, blended together approach-wise. Trying some new things, seeing what's effective, seeing what's not effective, making some mid-season changes that some

some, boy, did they not work. And we can point to a, I believe, I almost immediately after the barrage of home runs. There was also a barrage of walks. So, you know, some of those new things didn't go so well,

didn't work so well. So I would say that this is a little bit more tinkering and not major overhauling. And I've just, I've gotten extremely lucky as well. I face some really good hitters and boy, have they maybe just missed some pitches. So I will

cross my fingers to hope that that happens as much as possible. But we'll see going forward. I was reading an article by Tyler Kepner in The Athletic about Rick Sweet, the manager of the Nashville Sounds, who is coming up on the all-time number of games managed. He's going to set the record for most games managed in the minors. And there was a quote in this piece from Terry Collins, former Major League and Minor League manager, who said, AAA manager is the hardest job in baseball because half your team isn't happy. And I guess the idea is that you have guys who have been in the bigs and they are unhappy that they're not there or they haven't been there yet and they feel like they should be. And so you're so close and yet so far.

And maybe you have some guys who are on the downside of their careers. And so they're kind of trying to recapture the former glory and everything. So having spent some time in AAA recently, is that the case? And did you try not to be one of the unhappy guys? Yeah, there's a, yeah, it's funny. I think that, yes, there are definitely people that are unhappy. I attempt to be not unhappy. But there's, a lot of it is just driven by that desire to be in the major leagues. Oftentimes, it's less unhappy because they're a miserable person or something like that. And it's more unhappy because it's, I just, I want it so bad. I want the big league so bad. So I think that there's, it can often get construed. a little bit more negative when there are definitely people that may be unhappy, and it's not fun to be around, but there are also people out there. And I was one of them in AAA. Was I unhappy to be in AAA? Yes, of course. Was I hopefully, was I not miserable? Yeah, I would like to think

that maybe I wasn't super miserable to be around. But yeah, definitely it's more of this drive to want to be in the big leagues that that I think can can take over a team that is a very funny line where it's half your team is on that. I'd also say half your team is there for two weeks and then there's turnover too. Like you're dealing with so many different people also especially especially I think in the modern game there's so much turnover at the AAA level. But yeah, there's grateful to play for me personally grateful to play at any level, grateful to be given the opportunity. But yeah, you want to get out on minor leagues. The big league's is so cool. And anyone that's experienced the big leagues and is in the minor leagues, I think has

that itch where it's, we got to get back. It's so great up there. The challenge, the extreme challenge, you know, the lifestyle, the flights, the hotels, like, it's everything is just, it's so nice. And then you get to go out there and you get to compete against the best. And it feels really good when even if the best in baseball hits a screaming line drive that almost takes your face off, but it's caught by the center fielder. As a pitcher, you feel pretty good. You got him out. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because I was thinking about the Bull Durham scene where they're on the bus and Crash Davis is regaling all his teammates with tales of when he was in the show. You know, I was in the show for 21 days, the greatest 21 days of my life. And he's talking about

how you never handle your luggage. Somebody else carries your bags and you hit white balls for batting practice. The ballparks are like, yeah. The ballparks are like cathedrals. The hallparks are like cathedrals, the hotels all have room service, the women all have long legs and brains, which you would never say as a happening married man. But the other things, you know, everyone knows about the pay difference and the obvious differences. But what are some of the other lifestyle things where it's just like, oh, I'm in the, it's not so bad to be in AAA, obviously. Like, you know, the Durham Bulls in that movie were still A ball, I think. But still, like, what are some of the things you might not know just about how kind of cushy it is in the big leagues, even

compared to the highest levels of the miners. Man, yeah, I think the thing that stands out, I think, for me, has got to be the flights. It's no secret that, you know, teams are chartering planes or own a plane, which in and of itself is fantastic. You have your team, your organization that's on a single flight. But it's just the ease of which, for anyone who has been stuck in an airport line, which has got to be just about anyone who's ever flown, the ease of getting through an airport onto a plane and then taking off is just so dramatically more comfortable than checking the bag and getting into a security line. And I was in Atlanta when they had the partial government shut down. And the Atlanta airport is so remarkably busy to begin with.

and I get there, and it took me about 10 minutes just to find the back of the line. I was in the security line for about two and a half or three hours. I got there early enough to where, because I knew all this was coming, but that's an extreme example, of course, but there's just no waiting. You just go right through, and it's just so nice to be able to get on a plane. So I think that would be, that would be for me, the one where it's like, boy, that That is that convenience is such a luxury that I've come very much to appreciate it. Yeah.

That said, I wonder how you have observed conditions improve in the minors since you started because it's been 15 years since you got drafted and made your pro-debut Staten Island in the New York Penn League, shorts used an A ball, which doesn't even exist anymore. Yeah, gone to those. And then it's been a decade since you got to AAA the first time, I guess, with Memphis. And this was before the minor leagues unionized and joined the MLBPA and everything. And so teams were not providing nearly as much to minor leaguers back then. So I wonder what you have observed going back to the minors, even if it was just AAA after a while away, aside from maybe the occasional rehab assignment or something, just how things have evolved.

Yeah, there's been some very dramatic differences. A lot less peanut butter and jellies for pregame meals. A lot less just deli meat sandwiches for pregame meals. And I love a good PBMj. I've got kids. I love a good PB&J. I love a good ham and cheese sandwich every now and then. The two of them a day before the game and then the one or two of them a day after the game,

that gets to be a little much. So, yeah, I think that the food being offered, the hotels, to be honest, I cannot remember all that well, but I think the food is a huge difference. And the housing, which I haven't taken advantage of, but there are some new housing rules and stipulations to where they have to give you your own room or something like that, or they put you up in housing instead of players having to, you know, crawl through these different cities and see, like, like, okay, who can I do a short-term lease with? That's not going to take my entire paycheck. That has definitely been a big difference, which has been nice. I think that I think the teams are slowly starting to kind of provide some of those things that help with performance. I think that there is plenty to continue to do.

But at the very least, in a decade, it has gotten a little bit better. Yeah. Yeah, and you talked about the turnover and teams are just constantly shuffling their rosters. And often it is kind of the back of the bullpen and guys are getting optioned and guys are getting called up and then guys get DFA'd and then they resign. And sometimes that happens a few times in a season. And there are some limits on how many times you can do certain things over the course of a year. But it's like, you know, you have a 26 man roster.

But that's kind of theoretical. It's like you almost have a bunch more guys who are almost all. on a taxi squad the way that they had during the pandemic, kind of where they're just sort of cycled in and out and we need a fresh arm. But, you know, I'm sure you're always happy to get the call, regardless of the circumstances. But it's, as we said, it's pretty disruptive, I imagine,

because sometimes guys will come up and they'll have a great game, and then they're sent right back down because it's like, well, we just needed you for this or someone's coming off the I.L. Or whatever. And it's got to be a tough pill to swallow. Yeah, the performing really. well and getting optioned. Yeah.

Is just a, just a miserable feeling. And I, there's, there's restraints on teams and rosters and stuff like that. So those moves are, are as of right now, kind of part of it. On just a base level, you always want to see good performance rewarded. And I'm hoping that, you know, baseball can kind of move towards, a little bit more towards that. But it is, it is, as of right now, and it has been in the past. it is a part of the game where the team's needs and the individual players' needs don't necessarily always match up perfectly.

And it has led, especially lately in the past handful of years, it has led to a lot of turnover with teams, a lot of DFA and claiming and rosters changing to try and take advantage of having players available and all that stuff. And in my perfect world, every major league team has a hundred-man roster. and the league minimum is a trillion dollars. And, you know, and stands are packed with people and hot dogs are a dollar. Right. So there's a lot that I, in my utopia that would shift a little bit. But yeah, that's part of it.

And it is the most difficult thing is seeing someone get called up, especially if it's like a debut or something like that. You get called up and you shove and you're incredible. And you're getting guys out left and right. And it's like, thanks. Thanks for those couple of innings. thanks for those few innings. We got to make another move. You're going to AAA.

It is hard to watch. But that's, I think, part of what makes really good baseball players is being resilient. And that's one of those, just another thing you have to be resilient about sometimes. Is there kind of parity when it comes to at least some of the resources, the information, the technology? You know, statcast, obviously, is in the minors as well. And so if you want to look up how you did or if you want to check out video or get scathing reports on your upcoming opponents or whatever, work on something in the pen. Are you able to do that in AAA about as well as you are in the big leagues or is there still a

significant difference there? Yeah, the teams that I have been on, I guess the information that I use is not quite as in-depth, I don't think, as the information that some other people might use. So I'm a little bit easier of a candidate to have to deal with because it's like, all right, John's an old fart. He wants to know what the location of the pitch was. He doesn't care about the release tilt versus the brake tilt, right? Like there's, there's a lot that I just, I'm just not good enough. So knowing the information isn't going to help me. So the places that I've been, yes, in AAA, I've gotten, I've gotten what I have needed. You know, they can put those portable

track man's up behind home plate for when you're throwing a bullpen before the game. And there's, you know, every team's got a pitching coach or two that is there to help and that knows the information and you can bounce ideas off of and they can give you ideas and all that stuff. So for the basics, I would consider myself someone that uses, I use a lot of the basics. I use the basics a lot, but I don't really extend too much beyond that. That is definitely available. I think if you want to get into like the really nitty gritty stuff, if a AAA team has two pitching coaches, that's great and they can they can do a lot.

But their capacity for work is very different than two pitching coaches, a pitching director, a bullpen coach, a director of pitching performance. That's all that's all on a big league staff, along with all of the analysts that, you know, whose offices are down the hall that you can go and ask questions. So there's, you know, as you would expect major league teams are spending more money on staff to be able to have them available and do more things at the major league level. But I've been so fortunate to work with some really, really, really good high-quality staffs in AAA as well. And for the information that I need, you know, I'm just like an idiot rolling out there. So I'm easy-freezy to work with. But they do the best that they can. I wouldn't necessarily call it parity, but I would say that depending on the organization, they're trying to give you what they can.

I don't know if the Rockies have a team-wide policy when it comes to pitcher, challenges, because some teams have all but banned pitchers from doing it, given the track record being not so hot. So I don't know whether you've been tempted, whether there is sort of a soft ban in place, or what would it take for you to feel like I'm going for it? I'm tapping the head. I'm tapping the cap. I have actually done it one time. It takes an enormous amount for me to do that because I move a little bit a lot, you know, a little bit in general during my motion to, where prior to having the ABS zone, I'd be throwing pitches to a catcher and the inning would end and I'd walk in there and be like, what in the world? Like, how was that ball not called a strike? And I would go and I'd look and it's like, oh, you framed it incredibly well. I was falling off the mound.

My depth perception was a little bit off because where the umpiring were the batter were standing, but it was a foot and a half off the plate. Just because I hit you in the chest doesn't mean that it was a strike. So I have proven myself wrong plenty of times without the ABS. I mean, I told myself I would never use it. And then lo and behold, a couple of weeks ago, I did end up using it. I threw a breaking ball. I thought it was right over the plate.

But the runner was, there was a runner on first. He was going to steal second. So like the catcher pops up, catches the ball, throws it down to second. I didn't really know what the call was. So after the tag gets placed on the runner, I turn back and I say, you know, I shout to the umpire. If that was a ball, I would like to challenge it. And he said it was too late. So I didn't end up getting to actually challenge it.

I did go and look and the ball was directly over the plate. So I was really nervous when I was checking that. But yeah, so I have, technically I have attempted to challenge, but I, apparently I was, I don't know when you're supposed to get your challenges in. Yeah, it's supposed to be within two seconds, but it's, yeah, it's tough if there's a runner going because that's, yeah, the catcher doesn't get to frame it and the umpire's blocked maybe. And so. Yeah, I wasn't sure that's, yeah, I could, I could have challenged it, but then I would have gotten hit in the face by the throat of a second. So, you know, oh, well. But I, yeah, I love seeing, I love seeing the challenge system in place. I think it's really exciting. It gives, it gives fans at least a few opportunities a game to get really into a call that's about to happen. And if the home team gets it right, there's an explosion of cheers. And if the home team gets it wrong, you can kind of like feel that, that depression of energy throughout a stadium. So I think it's a fun thing to have.

And even if you don't give it away on the outside, are you thinking on the inside sometimes? I hope my catcher challenges this one. Please challenge that one. Yes. Sometimes, yes. Sometimes I'm thinking like, ooh, I hope he challenges it because I thought it was a strike. And I would like my arrogance of knowledge of the strike zone to be. confirmed by someone else thinking it was a strike.

And every now and then they do and we get it. But it's, I will say, the catchers that I've thrown to with the ABS have been really good. Even if they get it wrong, it's like the timing of when to challenge is, is almost just as important. You know, late in the game, you have challenges left, a big situation, turning a 1-1 count goes to 1-2 instead of 2-1, things like that. So even if they do get it wrong, I play with some catchers that are. very tactfully using their challenges. It does seem like the zone is a little bit different, though, even aside from the challenges,

I know there's been some analysis about the way the zone is differently shaped or smaller, just because umps are kind of taking into account the challenge zone, which is technically a little different from the 3D strike zone that is still sort of in place, but is different in terms of where the pitch is judged to be a strike or not. So I know this has been in place in the miners for a while, so I don't know whether you've really felt the impact of that. But certainly earlier this year, the walk rate was way up in the majors, as everyone was kind of adjusting to wait, what is a strike now? I don't know. It's a big difference.

There is definitely a big difference. And you can see it, even if it's, you know, even a few inches total is massive. I mean, you see a lot of these challenges that are less than an inch, you know, going one way or the other. So I believe the office of the commissioner's idea for baseball was to speed the game up a little bit and provide more offense or more excitement in that way. And what they've done to the strike zone is, it's maybe not speeding up the game. The pitch clock is doing that. But it is definitely, I think, providing more opportunity for offense because there are, you know, you look at some of the calls that used to happen a handful of years ago. You can't just throw the ball to the catcher's glove six times in a row and like, all right, he's sitting in a spot.

So this is our strike zone. But yeah, it's definitely shrunk what as a pitcher, I would say it's shrunk considerably. I'm sure hitters would be like, yeah, it's a little smaller, but nothing crazy. So when I talked to you last year, your agent, Joe Rosen, emailed me to say he really enjoyed the conversation. But I can't believe you didn't ask him about his walk-up song. And is it even called a walk-up song if you're a pitcher? I'd call it maybe an entrance song. The exhausted runout song at altitude.

Yeah, you're jogging in song. But I did not ask you about it, and I told him if I had you on again, I would. So please feel free to share. I mean, it's a classic. It's Wham, Wake Me Up Before You Go Go. It was picked for me in the year would have been 2012. The radio announcer at the time of Charleston, South Carolina was, I was playing for the Charleston River Dogs in the Yankees organization, and our announcer was picking different walkout songs for people who

didn't really have a preference, and I didn't really have a preference. And I will never forget, the college had just gotten back in or had just gotten out, something like that. Like, there were a lot of college students still in Charleston. So, and that's usually when the games are, pretty packed. And they played it, and I mean, it was just, the fans loved it. Like, You could sing along to it. I think the movie Zoolander is just hysterical, and the gasoline fight cracks me up. It's so ridiculous, and I think it's one of the funniest scenes. And it's playing during that scene, too.

So there was just a lot of things that kind of went into it that made it just really fun. And seeing, like, songs don't really do it for me, you know? Like, I love music, but, like, I can't put a song on and then all of a sudden be, like, kind of ramped up or anything like that. fear does it for me. You put someone who's 6'5 foot 6 and 300 pounds in the batters box, that'll get me going a little bit. Fight or flight kicks a. Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, so I've never been terribly picky about songs, but when he chose that song and it played and just seeing like the crowd reaction, I thought, oh, this is what I would want to hear if I was here watching the game, and I have just kept it since. So it's been a good 14 years of wake me up before you go, though. Yeah, people like the sort of videos. syncratic or anachronistic song choice because most guys are going to go with a song that is currently or recently popular. And so when you hear something a little older, maybe that appeals

to the older audience, but it just might be more recognizable to people who are not listening to top 40 or Hot 100 or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's it mixes it up a little bit. It's different. It's happy and it's upbeat. And that's, that's, I think, a good thing. Now, you've got to get the, like, Edwin-Diaz, Yohan-Duran style. the lights come off and then Wham plays and then everyone gets psyched as you sprint in and then

gas for breath on the mound. But yeah, the whole choreographed live performers and trumpets and I guess when you're more of a middle inning guy maybe you don't tend to get that treatment. Yeah, the job revenues of the world don't necessarily see flames on the board and then let one rip at 91. Yeah, the one thing I have

asked teams for is like, hey, is there any chance that we could get the gasoline fight from Zoolander on the Jumbotron. And there are some copyright issues. So to be fair, they don't feel like paying to be able to use that scene. I completely get that. I should ask how much it is and gauge just how badly I want it. But yeah, that's the one thing I have asked. And they're like, ah, come on man, we're not going through all this.

Just to play something ridiculous for you as you run into the. the game. You have been a little bit of a long man. I mean, not exactly, but a lot of your outings in AAA and your first big league outing, it seems like, I mean, you've gone two innings as often as you've gone one, it seems like, this year. So I don't know whether that is a conscious thing or your stuff just suits that or what, because that wasn't always the case with you in the big leagues. You know, a lot of relievers are one-inning guys, but you have doubled up quite often this year. Yeah. I think the teams are wanting to see pitchers that can do a little bit more than just come in, throw an inning, and go home.

When you're trying to piece together a game, sometimes the best thing is to have someone get stretched out a little bit. Sometimes the best thing is to have someone just come in, throw a one hitter, get the last out of the inning and go. But I think that overall teams with their pitchers at the AAA level, they can't just have, if you're going to call someone up, you rarely call up a class. closer. You know, wow, he's doing, he's doing great in AAA. Let's call him up and give him the ninth inning when we're up by two. Generally, when you call guys up, it's to be in a little bit more of those extended roles. So, yeah, so this year I've stretched out a little bit just to make sure I can go two innings and all that stuff. And you do what you can at a necessity and out of what the team needs. And that's something that a lot of teams, I think, are looking for in those roles. So there's CBA bargaining going on as we speak, or there will. was today. In fact, I got a press release from the MLBPA during this conversation with a statement

on today's bargaining session. It's still early days and it's still sort of opening offers and proposals being exchanged that don't look that different from your 100-man roster, $1 hot dog, infinite minimum salary proposal. But how closely are you and most players following this and how do you stay on top of it? How do you find out what's going on? and who proposed what, and how are you feeling about all of it? Yeah, there's your meetings in spring training where, you know, kind of the idea of what the union is looking for and what the teams are looking for and the owners are looking for sort of gets laid out.

Sometimes there are even meetings during the season with Rob Manfred and other folks at the commissioner's office that I would maybe call them kind of touch points more so than, you know, negotiating terms. But, you know, something like today where, there's actual exchanges of information. I would say that for the most part, people stay pretty informed. As far as players go, they seem pretty informed. You know, it's an important part of players' careers.

And so whether someone thinks it's interesting or not, like I do find it to be interesting. But it's also, even if you don't think it's interesting, it impacts. It impacts the players a lot. So it's something that everyone, just about everyone, I think, is kind of keen on staying in the loop about and learning about. I would say that more people lean towards learning and understanding than, you know, immediately having these vocal opinions

because I think there's just so much that when you do hear, when that press release comes out today, there's a lot of information that needs to be digested. So you go to your team rep or, you know, we're sitting in the bullpen for an hour or so before anyone needs to warm up and we're chatting about it. Things like that happen a lot more. And then as negotiations sort of go on and players on the team start to form opinions and look for what they want and see what they want, then you can kind of get into the like, okay, this is this is where it's heading. And then you get a little bit more of those opinions. But I'm always fascinated, anything negotiating I'm fascinated with, whether it's, whether it's when I called to negotiate a new phone, a new cell service bill

or whether, you know, and it's a difference of pennies or whether I'm looking at major league salaries and it's a difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like, it's all very fascinating to me and the tactics that are sort of in play during all of this stuff is, to me, is a lot of fun. I'm an extremely petty person, though, so I'm like the last person in the world you want negotiating because I will die on any hill. It's, you know, if we want the smallest thing in the world, we got to have wet wipes in the bathroom. clubhouse. If the owners say no, I'll never play again. I'm standing strong. I'm not buying my own right. I'm just the worst when it comes to that. So I love keeping my eyes on it. And I love learning and understanding what's happening. Because, I mean, in all seriousness, it is very important for players to understand and know. But I think guys do a really good job of that. And having been

on several organizations in the past year or so, I guess you probably have a decent sense of how people are feeling. You got your finger on the pulse. So, I mean, sure everyone's kind of bracing for a lockout to be imposed presumably not long after the season, as was the case in the previous round of bargaining. Do you get the sense that everyone is more or less in lockstep here or committed, maybe not as much with the wet wipes specifically? Yeah, it's just me with the wet wipes. Yeah, with the real things that are happening. Yeah, I would say that there's probably more unity. in heading into this CBA.

I would say this CBA and some of the, was it, I'm going to mess up the year here. Was it 2023? Going into 23? Yeah. I get my years confused. Yeah. I would say that year and just so far from what I'm seeing this year,

there's been a lot of unity, a lot of people thinking, you know, kind of thinking along the same lines, which is, you know, from when you head into the CBA, it's a really cool thing to see. And more importantly, I think people know what they want. It's less of everyone having their own ideas and kind of being confused on what's happening. And all right, what are the owners saying? What is the league saying? And it's really cool to see where it's like, no, we understand.

We've heard this for a few years. And thankfully for the PA, they have really good folks on staff that can help explain and help teach guys what they're looking for and all that. And it's been really cool to see everyone sort of kind of come together and agree on their own. Versus like one person saying, hey, this is the stance we're going to take. And everyone else going, okay, it's more like, hey, no, this is kind of what we want. What do you all think? And everyone's sitting there going, well, yeah, I want that.

It's a very different sense of, it's a very different sense of unity. And I sort of got it from the last one too. And I think it's a continuation of the same thing. So I think that's very cool. I'm probably the one that's the most ridiculous with all of my crazy demands. Well, having been around the block a bit and been through a few rounds of this and everything, are you one of the people who will help, even if you're not a player rep, are you sort of helping explain things?

Or I guess, you know, even when you were in the minors and there are some younger guys there, whether it's about CBA stuff or non-CPA stuff, just have you taken on the veteran mentor passing on your wisdom role? If it's something that I am familiar with and that I understand, I will do my best. But I think the most important thing that I can do is pass people off to folks that know what they're doing. I always make it a point to be like, well, this is what I think. But I'm going to send you to someone who knows their stuff and you can get their opinion.

So it has been a little bit of that. But every year is different. There's new things that come up. and there's new things that change. So it's fun to see kind of people form in their own opinions too. Well, I'm sorry it didn't work out with the Red Sox, your hometown team, not the most distinguished tenure, I guess. Did you grow up rooting for the Red Sox? Yeah, yeah, I grew up about 30 minutes or so outside the city.

So, yeah, I was a Nomar Garcia-Para, Pedro Martinez, you know. Well, I guess you didn't quite join those ranks when it comes to Red Sox legends, but, you know, those few days you spent on the United States. the IL with hand, foot and mouth disease. You made your contribution to the Red Sox story and history. I'm not sure I didn't touch anyone. But glad you caught on with the Rockies and that things are going well lately. I hope they continued to. It's always good to have John Brebria in the big leagues and also on effectively wild. So always a pleasure to have you, whether things are going well or not going well or you're in the minors or the majors, whatever it is. A outstanding invitation to come back on the show. Great to talk to you.

Well, I very much appreciate it. It's always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. All right. Well, after we finish recording, I told John, maybe we can have him back on during the lockout when nothing else is happening. And he said, yeah, everyone else will be back in. He'll still be out because of the wet wipes. He'll be holding out for those. Bruce Meyer did say on Thursday, I will tell you with all honesty, I have never seen this degree of unity at this point among agents and players. I think, honestly, the league has done us a favor because their proposals are, in fact, so obviously an extremely bad for players at all level, that it's actually been a benefit for our unity. Anybody who's banking on Major League Baseball players cracking, it's never happened, it's not going to happen,

that's why we're the only ones who don't have a salary cap. Well, of course, that's what you're going to say if you're in Bruce Myers' position, or even John Preppius. Yes, we're united. You can't possibly break us. And of course, the union has been through some leadership turnover and turmoil, but perhaps there is truth to reports of that resolve. Time will tell.

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We will be back with one more episode before the end of the week, which means we will talk to you soon. Well, it's moments like these that make you ask, how can you not be horny about baseball? Every take hot and hotter, entwining and a budding, watch them climb a mountain, nothing's about nothing, every stitch wet with sweat, breaking balls back, dormy on effectively while

that can you not be horny? Comes to podcasts, how can you not be horny? You know,