Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2499: Sit-Down Meeting

Starting point is 00:00:00 Have a catch and a slog with me in a virtual rise. From small sample size, these fun facts must lie. It's effectively a strange good hate. Hello and welcome to episode 2499 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from FanGraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of the Ringer, joined by Meg Rally of FanGraphs. Hello, Meg. Hello.

Starting point is 00:00:39 Well, I'm trying to sound upbeat, trying to put a brave face on things, but I have suffered some grievous psychological and physical wounds that I must detail to you here. Grievous might be a bit of an overbid, but a few episodes ago, I began with some banter. I felt euphoric. I was jubilant. I was buoyant because John Brebria was back in the big leagues. Joey Minesis was back in the majors. Everything was coming up Ben when it comes to Effectively Wild favorites.

Starting point is 00:01:13 And now it's the polar opposite. It has been a rough few days for some of Effectively Wild's main Major League characters. John Brebia, recent Effectively Wild returning guest, has been designated for assignment by the Colorado Rockies. So the journeyman's journey continues. We will see whether he ends up with a new organization or goes to the minors with the Rockies where he was before. This changes nothing about my affection for him. He continues to have a standing invitation to come back on this podcast. So John Brebria, you're still my boy.

Starting point is 00:01:50 And that's an acceptable use of the word boy when referring to a baseball player to be clear. Yes. But also, in other awful news, Brent Ruffalo. Rooker, effectively Wilde's favorite multi-time guest, was an Ironman last season, as we discussed with him, played 162 games. Don't know if that's having a hangover effect, but for one reason or another, he's been banged up all season. He just hasn't been able to get it together. He had an oblique issue. He's been on the I.O. with a knee issue.

Starting point is 00:02:17 And now that knee will cost him the rest of the season. He is undergoing season-ending knee surgery. So this has been sort of a lost season for Brent Rooker. Hopefully this will not prevent him from extending the annual tradition of gracing us with his presence during the offseason. But the tenor of that conversation and the review of his season might be a bit different. And frankly, we had Rooker and Pasquantino on together, which was delightful last time. Right. Things have not been going great for Vinny either.

Starting point is 00:02:50 I know. Yeah. 81 WRC plus for Vinny, 82 WRC plus for Rooker plus for Rooker plus the injuries. And my man, Manessus, is two for 14 to start his tenure with the A's. If you put those few guys together and lump together the wars of Rooker Pasquentino and Manessus, you're at negative 0.6 right now. Yeah. It's not good.

Starting point is 00:03:17 It has not been a banner time for some of our podcast favorites. No, it really hasn't. And, you know, a melange of issues, right? Underperformance, injury, precarious roster states and statuses. But, you know, I think we just hope that everyone has a better time of it. Look, like, we always think about these guys in baseball terms, you know, what this means for the potential playoff fortunes of the athletics and, you know, how it will affect Brent Rooker's play and what it means for Vinnie Paswintino.

Starting point is 00:03:55 I mean, presumably other than being. concerned for his friend. Brent Rooker's knee surgery isn't affecting Vinnie Pasquintino all that meaningfully. But like, you know, like Brent Rucker has kids. He has to run around after and he's got having to do a knee. That's a bummer. Yeah. Yeah, it's rough. So hopefully better days ahead for some of our podcast staples. And yeah, there's been a bunch of rough injury news for the A's lately, not just Rooker, but a pitching prospect, Way and Lynn is having Tommy John surgery. And then more disconcerting than that is the injury suffered by Ryan Lasko, another A's prospect, who had a collision in the outfield, and it was pretty ugly.

Starting point is 00:04:40 And his spine, he has suffered a spinal injury after colliding with another outfielder trying to dive for a ball in the gap. And at least in the immediate aftermath of that injury did not have feeling in the lower half of his body. And really, they hope is, yeah, they hope it's, it's. just swelling in his spine and it will go down and hopefully he will be okay. I'm not a praying man myself, but thoughts at least. Thoughts to Ryan Lesko. I don't know if that'll help. But yeah, that is striking because usually we're thinking of this in terms of career-threatening

Starting point is 00:05:16 injury is different from life-threatening and quality of life-threatening and season-ending is a lot different from career-threatening. So that's the sort of thing that in a baseball, Fortunately, we don't encounter too often when we're talking about long-term mobility issues, and hopefully that will not be the case. But even just seeing those headlines and the clip and everything, which watch with caution, if you want to. But yes, hopefully he will be okay. That is just not something that I'm accustomed to reading about an outfield collision. That can be bad.

Starting point is 00:05:51 Those can be gnarly. There can be concussion concerns, et cetera. but spinal issues, just ability to walk. That is fortunately rare, but quite concerning. Yeah, quite alarming. We hope that everybody makes a speedy recovery, regardless of the severity. But yeah, just a real unfortunate series of events for them.

Starting point is 00:06:13 Yes. And my injury cannot compare to those. Yeah, what's going on with you? It's nothing super serious. Could have been, but wasn't. But I have suffered, I think, my first podcasting injury. or at least podcasting-related entry. It was more about podcast preparation than the actual active of podcasting.

Starting point is 00:06:34 Yeah. So it is hard to hurt yourself while podcasting because, you know, generally you're just sort of sitting there. Sitting there. Yeah. But I am up at my mom's house for the long weekend, the holiday weekend, but I had some button mashing and some effectively wilding out to do. And so I'm in my mom's basement, which is fitting. Love that. And I reconfigure things when I'm up here and I build a little cushion fort for sound dampening purposes.

Starting point is 00:07:03 Yeah. But this time, I tried to transport a table that was lower and wider than usually I'm putting together a couple night tables because I have my laptop and my mic and mouse and tea and all sorts of things. And so I wanted a little more surface area. And I went for this other table that I've never used for this purpose. and I lifted it up, and maybe I didn't know my own strength, and I hulked out a little bit, and I kind of lifted it over my head, and it was this little low table with a glass top. And what I did not know is that the glass top of the table not connected to the table, just a sort of freestanding glass surface that when I lifted it up and angled it a little,

Starting point is 00:07:50 just fell out, just came out. And the glass shattered on the floor, but not before hurting and hitting me. Oh, gosh. Yeah. So the glass top of this table hit me in the face. And at first I didn't feel much of anything and didn't think anything had happened. But then there will be blood. There was, you know, right now it looks like some smoky eyeliner from the bruising.

Starting point is 00:08:19 But those scalp injuries, they can get gorge. There's a little mask of blood going on on one side, but ultimately just a flesh wound and just sort of superficial. But it was kind of disconcertingly close to my eye, which would have been bad. But it was it was fortunately just to the side of it. And so I don't know if I'm going to have a shiner or what, but the bleeding has stopped and I'm fine. But I held up a frozen pea bag to my face for a while just to try to keep the swelling down. And you can't really tell other than sort of a discolored little wound in the corner of my eye. But you cannot say that I don't bleed for button mesh and effectively wild, I guess.

Starting point is 00:09:04 My initial concern was, okay, am I, am I all right? Is my sight unaffected? Is this actually something serious? Do I need to get this checked out? Determined that it wasn't super serious. It's a tis but a flesh wound. And then my next thoughts, of course, were what I have podcasted. do. Okay, so I want to offer two things, two things simultaneously, and I hope they're both

Starting point is 00:09:27 received in the spirit with which they're intended, which is one of concern and generosity. This is the second time in our tenure as Coas, where I have learned about a potentially debilitating injury or illness on air, and I'll just remind you, Ben, you know, you can ask for a sub. I had to ask for a sub unexpectedly last Friday, and Ben Clemendez. was so kind to fill in for me. And, you know, you have a, well, I was going to say break glass in case of emergency, which now feels a little insensitive. Yeah, that's the problem.

Starting point is 00:10:03 You can take a day off. Yeah. And I grapple with a weird kind of guilt around taking a day off. Because I think that having a work life balance is appropriate. Our listeners are reasonable people. We provide, I think, we're holding up our end of the podcasting. bargain in terms of the number of episodes that they receive certainly with maybe a renewed vigor and VIM considering our recent shift to the freemium model but they're people they're

Starting point is 00:10:35 reasonable people they understand that brussel sprouts and weirdly designed coffee tables like these things happen to to folks and so but you never take time off you know or very rarely do take time off, despite being encouraged to take time off, because it's okay to take time off. And so then I don't feel guilty about taking time off, but I feel guilty that I take time off, and you tend to not take time off. And so I, and now I'm just like feeling really quite strange because you, you had like an incident, you know, you had a shattering of glass, and you were just like, I'm not going to tell her I'll wait until we get on the air. What is that about, If the bleeding had continued, I would have alerted you to that.

Starting point is 00:11:19 But a few hours have passed and I'm doing just dandy. So it's funny because I often take players to task for playing through injury. I know. Because I think there's kind of this macho thing and I can't take time off. And not only can you possibly exacerbate the problem, but also you are perhaps compromised in your performance. And so you're not doing anyone a favor. You're thinking, oh, I'll just soldier through this. but actually you're hurting perhaps yourself and also the team in many instances.

Starting point is 00:11:49 I don't think that'll be the case at this time. I'll let people judge whether my podcasting is compromised. But no, I'm fine. No one should feel guilty. You shouldn't feel guilty. I'm happy to podcasts. I would have been disappointed if I couldn't. Though if this had actually been a serious injury.

Starting point is 00:12:03 You would have let me know? Yes. I promise that, hey, I'm bleeding. If it's anything more serious than temporary Brussels-induced in capacity or a superficial flesh wound that will be fine, then I will definitely take some time off, I promise. Okay. Okay.

Starting point is 00:12:22 Well, I'm not satisfied with that answer. I want you to know. I still find it wanting, but I'm glad that you are okay. You know, I think that's the most important thing. Thank you. Yes. And who knew podcasting could be so hazardous?

Starting point is 00:12:35 I know. What kind of goof-ass coffee table is this? Right. What is that? Who doesn't attach the glass to the table? How am I supposed to know? You could say that tables are not designed to be lifted over one's head at that ankle, perhaps. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:12:49 But still. It just seems like, you know, I guess I would say that it seems like there are other circumstances by which a table so designed might prove to be hazardous. And that seems, you know, like a problem. One of my, my best friend from home at one point came down to visit both me and family she has in the valley. and it was Kelsey and her two boys. And they're, you know, they're like elementary school age kids. And they're little boys. So they have no sense of self-preservation.

Starting point is 00:13:21 Our actual demons. I mean, they're wonderful. But, you know, they're little boys. So they have moments where they're just all wound up and running around and being rascals. And she ended up renting an Airbnb in our neighborhood so that she could be close, but also have enough room for the kids and what have you. She walked into the Airbnb and it was just like four glass top. coffee tables. And I was like, what is this? What is this idea? That's a terrible idea. And not just for

Starting point is 00:13:49 little kids. Like, I'm like, it's an Airbnb. You're really going to trust the people who come to Arizona to hang out with glass topped coffee tables? I wouldn't. We're maniacs down here. What are you doing? Yeah, it seems dangerous. All right. Well, lots of hazards. Heat indexes 110 or something, even where I am, not just where you are. We hope everyone's fine. Be careful with tables. Be careful with heat. If any of our effectively wild guests and favorites are listening, I'm sure they're not, but we're thinking of them too and hope

Starting point is 00:14:18 they play better and have better health and I will draw hazard pay. Thanks as always to our Patreon supporters who will be enjoying a full episode today and yes, we will get to the Wilson Contreras Kate Cavali situation. We will talk about some weird win-loss

Starting point is 00:14:35 records. We'll talk about some player proposals as it pertains to roster reshuffling and transactions. I want to talk about the fact that Pete Carr Armstrong is walking here. He knows how to walk now. Who taught him to do that? Maybe Alex Bregman, who knows? Anyway, we have lots of talk about pitcher usage.

Starting point is 00:14:54 I have a point to make. We will get to that and much more and maybe a couple teams that have been hot and cold lately. So I have to say, this Kabali-Contreras situation, I'm relieved. Yeah. And maybe that says something. about how low my expectations are and how low the bar has been set.

Starting point is 00:15:14 But this is seemingly an increasingly rare instance of someone doing something quite regrettable and actually regretting it or at the very least paying lip service to regretting it. And you know what? I'll settle for that at this point because rarely do we even get that. So for those of you who have not followed the saga, Wilson Contreras is going through it. right now. And this is in a more serious way than most of the other issues I have described to this point on the podcast. There's been a catastrophic earthquake or earthquakes in Venezuela, hundreds, thousands of people dead and displaced. And obviously the large Venezuelan contingent

Starting point is 00:15:57 of major league players are playing through that, though they are heart sore. And Wilson Contreras certainly is. And so this past week, he got ejected from two games. in a row, which was a first for the Red Sox franchise, which sort of surprised me. Different circumstances. But in the first game, you could clearly see that he was feeling the effects of everything going on back at home. And he hit a home run and he was exultant and he was calling out Venezuela as he was going down the first baseline and everything. And that was nice. And then he returned to the dugout and broke down in tears. Right. So clearly, emotions are running high. And, you know, He can be an emotional player at times regardless, but this in particular, anyone would be under these circumstances.

Starting point is 00:16:47 And so later in the game, he ran afoul of an ump because he struck out on a check swing. And he disagreed with the call on appeal. And he did a head tap. He did a little mocking head tap. On his way back to the dugout, he wasn't making a big show of it. But nonetheless, an umpire, perhaps a little thin-skinned, given the circumstances, but ran him from the game. And, you know, this was sort of like the circumstance, my bold preseason prediction last year when I suggested someone would do the mocking head tap. And this year, they haven't had to do the mocking head tap because they can do the actual head tap, but not on check swings.

Starting point is 00:17:31 As of yet, they're still checking the checks wing challenges in the minors. So for now, no recourse really. And so he did a little head tap and he got run from the game. The next day, though, he got struck out by Cade Cabali, who was pitching for the Nationals and pitched a great game through a gem. But that was kind of overshadowed by his behavior here. So he strikes out Contreras and maybe because of the previous day and the home runs and the ejection and whatever other baggage is going on here, he yells out and it's caught. on Mike saying, sit down, boy. And Wilson Contreras does a, you're talking to me?

Starting point is 00:18:13 What did you say? Did you actually say that to me? And starts kind of walking out and there is further jawing exchanged. And the bench is cleared. And it's mostly milling around. Ultimately, Contreras got ejected because he tossed his helmet in Kabali's direction on Contreras's way out, but nonetheless, that's typically a no-no. And so he got run.

Starting point is 00:18:40 Cavali didn't, though obviously in the aftermath, it was Cavali's offense that was seen as more serious because that is extremely loaded terminology to be using, right, given the racial history of a white person saying that to a dark-skinned person and the demeaning and humanizing and infantile. and Jim Crow baggage that comes along with that, right? And so in the immediate aftermath of that, everyone's wondering, what's the response to this going to be? Will there be any punishment? This is coming in the wake of the whole Pride Night's disgrace and debacle and fiasco and all the backlash to that.

Starting point is 00:19:22 And will we see Rob Manfred step in and will Cavalry say anything? And you know what? He did. Yeah. And he actually owned up to how bad this was. Yeah. And I was kind of heartened to hear that because my baseline expectation these days when something like that happens is either the perpetrator is going to be defiant or is just going to clam up and not say anything. And then people online are going to try to turn it into some culture war clash and it's just going to spiral the way that we saw with the Pride Night story.

Starting point is 00:19:57 And here's what Kabali said. the next day, I'm extremely torn up about the way that things were perceived. Obviously, there was no ill intention behind that. Well, it wasn't obvious in the moment. Obviously, it wasn't obvious. He continued to say, my teammates know me, my family knows me, this organization knows me. I couldn't sleep because of it. It hurt my heart, knowing that if there's a 13-year-old black kid in D.C. that looks up to me and thinks that he perceived it in a way that wasn't intended the way that it came out. And then he's not, not looking up to me anymore. That hurts my heart. He said he understands the history, the meaning. He said there's a history behind that word, and that's just something that as a competitor, like in football or basketball, playing wiffle ball with my brother, you don't understand it. And then it gets perceived in a way that was not my intention. And then you learn from that, it'll never happen again. And he said that he didn't realize the reaction to this until he got back to his hotel and saw the social media hub up about it. He said, I looked at my phone.

Starting point is 00:21:00 And I saw what people were saying about me, saw how torn up my wife was, it hurt my heart, I couldn't believe it. I really couldn't because I know that people know me and they know my character and that's not me. So it was hard. I truly didn't sleep last night. So we could critique some aspects of that apology, perhaps. But this far exceeded my expectation. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:21 And kind of nipped in the bud this becoming an even worse story and one that would be perpetuated for days. And I'm, I'm relieved. I mean, obviously it would have been nice if this had never happened and if he had never said that. But given just, you know, gestures at everything, this is better than I was expecting for a major league baseball player in 2026. Yeah, I think, you know, you're right to say that, like, there are parts of this that we could offer feedback on to be sort of more direct from an apology perspective. And, you know, I want to make clear as like two white podcast hosts. It's not really like our place to accept this apology, such as it was because no one's called me boy with that kind of. Well, no one's called me that period, but certainly not with the history that comes with that.

Starting point is 00:22:12 But I agree. I'm glad that not only was it addressed as something that was inappropriate in the moment, but that, you know, he put more specific terms around that in, a potential fan in D.C. who might think of him differently than than he did previously. And so I think, you know, sort of acknowledging where that intent is maybe immaterial to the effect that those words can have on people and pledging to not use that language in the future, I think is, you know, is certainly in like sports apology adjusted terms, he's doing very well and and sort of that it it paralleled the language that Paltaboni used when talking about sort of the conversation he had had with Kavali and it just it felt like it had been grappled with sort of

Starting point is 00:23:07 in real terms rather than you know trying to attribute like some sort of maligned intent to those reading into it or whatever it was just like that wasn't what I meant but I appreciate what that means and that it was interpreted that way and I don't want people to have that understanding of me and You know, I think that it was good. There was an acknowledgement of the harm even if there was a denial of the intent, which, like, you know, I don't know Kate Cavali. I know where Kate Cavalli's from? And so I am, I will express like a smidge of skepticism that there wasn't like an understanding of what that could carry. But I do appreciate that there was just, you know, he didn't try to do the thing.

Starting point is 00:23:53 I can't believe you would think that of me. You know, he sort of tried to tackle it in a more direct way, which I appreciate it. Yeah. And earlier in that game, there had been a little run-in between Contreras and Cavali, which was very silly. It's that sort of sometimes pitchers get upset if a non-pitcher intrudes on their territory on the mound. Right. You know, it was like because Contreras had been on second base, and then he jogged by the mound.

Starting point is 00:24:23 after Duran flyed out to end the inning and then I guess he kind of brushed Kavali or made some kind of contact and then seemed to say my bad or something and then said after the game that it wasn't on purpose

Starting point is 00:24:34 and he said he was cut off guard by it or something. So maybe that was part of it too that played into this reaction by Kavali and why he said anything or celebrated the way that he did. But yeah, but we'll never know

Starting point is 00:24:49 what Kavali was thinking obviously. And certainly, you could say, oh, he just saw the backlash and he felt that he had to say something to have it die down, but it was actually done knowingly in the moment and then he didn't want the smoke or something. You know, maybe, I don't know, but I can buy that this might have been said and done out of ignorance. Just, you know, he's a baseball player. He's 27. He's one of the unfortunate things about this time, I guess it's not unique to this time, but people will leap to conclusions

Starting point is 00:25:28 about other people based on appearance, based on demographics, based on whatever it is, online presence. Being from Bixby, Oklahoma. Yes. And so, yeah, people were scouring Kate Kavali's social media and looking at who he follows on Instagram. And then he's from Oklahoma. And I saw a bunch of people pointing out, oh, of course.

Starting point is 00:25:50 Or, you know, I saw people even screenshots. just his face and being like, oh, I'm not surprised that a guy who looked like this would say that, right? Because he looks like Doc Holiday. Yeah. And I get that, you know, you can often infer things about people from that sort of information, but not always. And it is kind of emblematic of, I guess, an era where we're all at each other's throats. And, you know, I fully understand. I've had that kind of reaction, too.

Starting point is 00:26:21 and you just sort of assume something about someone. And I don't know because all the quotes about, oh, my family knows and my teammates know and my organization knows. Well, none of us knows Kate Cavallies, right? And maybe even some of those people don't know Kate Cavalli on the inside, right? So who knows? But whether or not he said this knowingly, the fact that he owned up to how bad that is and said that he wouldn't do it again,

Starting point is 00:26:49 well, that's something. And you might say, okay, well, it's a little too late or you already said it, or you could critique how a lot of it was about how he felt bad about being perceived that way and it's sort of centering him or something or that he didn't literally say the words, sorry or whatever. Right. You know, you can parse apologies. I don't particularly care if you say I apologize, if you convey that you're apologetic. And, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't the standard sort of, I'm sorry that you took it that way. I mean, it was a little bit, obviously, because, but look, if it, if he didn't mean to, to say this sort of thing, then what are you supposed to do in that situation, I guess, right?

Starting point is 00:27:33 Because, you know, if you're not saying it out of racist intent, then you're not going to cop to having said it out of racist intent. And so you're going to talk about the perception of it because the way it was perceived is not the way that you intended it, which doesn't absolve you. for people perceiving it that way, because it's kind of on you if you didn't know about this legacy in history and thought that was an okay thing to say. But I could believe, okay, you could say, oh, he's from, you know, he's from Bixby, as you said, it's this suburb of Tulsa. I think in the most recent census, it was 2% black or African American. So you could reach some conclusion about him that would make this look worse based on that.

Starting point is 00:28:14 Or you could reach some conclusion about him that might make it look better just to the, in the sense that he hasn't even been exposed to people in those groups. Like, maybe he didn't even know about that, which, you know, maybe you should have done the work to educate yourself about that at some point. But if he wasn't ever, like, moving in these circles until he got into baseball, then I guess I could imagine how you might just be ignorant of that until that point. And then you just let out an exclamation. I don't know. I don't not really here to rehabilitate Kate Cavalli's image because I don't.

Starting point is 00:28:49 know him either, so I'm not vouching for him or anything. It's just regardless, I was somewhat surprised and heartened that he seemed to understand. And, you know, he didn't talk to Contreras directly, or at least he hadn't as of that time. He said, I have not reached out to him. I know that we're both competitors. I hope that he hears this and he understands that was not what was intended at all. I think he knows that. But if I see him, I want to make sure that he knows that. you know, maybe he should go out of his way to make sure that he knows that. But nonetheless, I guess it's just that my expectations are sort of in the basement basically now, because it's just whether you intended or not, never back down, never apologize, never show any sign of weakness,

Starting point is 00:29:34 just maintain some facade of strength. That's kind of the playbook these days. And so often that actually seems to work, unfortunately. And so the fact that he didn't do that. I don't know whether he was talked into this by his team or his wife or his family or whomever else, but I'm just happy that he said something along these lines. I guess the place where it strikes me as importantly and sort of appreciably different is that you're right that, you know, a lot of it is about like him worrying about how he is perceived. But, well, for one thing, there are a great. You know, a lot of it is about, many people who are quite comfortable with that perception. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:15 And that's not great. So there being resistance to that is something I think. And, you know, that it was put in sort of the reason that that way of referring to Contreras is a problem is because of the racial history that it's freighted with. And that it was addressed in those terms and invoked members of his. immediate community who might be, whose perception of him might be adversely affected just seemed to get at it in a more direct way and have a sense of care for that, you know, hypothetical kid, even if part of that care is about how that kid perceives him. It just feels, it does feel different. And you're right. Like, some of this is that our expectations are on the floor when it

Starting point is 00:31:07 comes to these things and that we are perhaps grading on a, you know, Giants Pride Night adjusted basis. Yeah. But it does, it does seem different. And so I hope, you know, I hope it is a genuine moment of sort of learning and reflection for him and that it informs sort of the way he thinks about conducting himself. I'll also say, like, even if it were a completely neutral thing to say, which obviously it's not, but like imagine a world in which that doesn't come with a bunch of.

Starting point is 00:31:37 racist baggage. Like, hey, Kate, you're like 27 and you've been in the league for two years. Like, this guy, in addition to the fact that he clearly has a lot going on right now is like many years you're senior and is practically a 10 year vet. So I don't know, man, have a little respect. Like it just part of it too is like, hey, that, hey, you're being disrespectful in a way that doesn't feel completely necessary here. But yeah, I hope that it just sort of informs a different posture and attitude on the field. You can trash talk. You can be a competitor.

Starting point is 00:32:13 All of those things are perfectly fair game. And there are so many ways to express that instinct that don't come with just a really gnarly history. So hopefully that's the path forward there. I do think that like the contrarious of it all, the guy's clearly going through some stuff. I am a little surprised. I guess that having like a league-wide pause

Starting point is 00:32:37 in play would just not be practicable. But I am a little surprised that we didn't maybe have one day where we postponed games, just given how many people in baseball are Venezuelan and are, I'm sure, being directly affected by what's going on there. So, like, that part of it is a little odd. And you can't throw your helmet at people. So, like, don't do that. Listen, I will be, I'll be curious to see sort of what, if any,

Starting point is 00:33:07 fallout there is from the league's perspective. I imagine there are some very nervous people sitting in the league office right now trying to try to figure out how to sort of appropriately met out potential suspensions or fines here. You know, I think it is okay to say, hey, we appreciate Kay Kowali making what seems to be a sincere statement of regret that does demonstrate an appreciation for why. what he said was unacceptable. It's okay for there to be consequences that accompany that realization, right?

Starting point is 00:33:44 So, like, if they decide that they want to find him or suspend him a game or whatever, like, I think that there's a proportional response to that that comes with additional consequence that reinforces his own understanding, right? Because part of what you're doing when you are handing out discipline in these moments is, you know, you want to have there be a consequence

Starting point is 00:34:07 for the infraction itself. You also want there to be some sort of deterrent for future behavior like that. And so I wouldn't think it was out of line for him to have

Starting point is 00:34:17 some sort of consequence there. And I also wouldn't think it would be out of line for Contreras to have a consequence either. Like you can't throw your helmet at people. I don't say that trying to,

Starting point is 00:34:27 you know, I can't imagine what he's going through right now. But having made the decision to be on the field, you still have to conduct yourself

Starting point is 00:34:36 in a particular way and we can have sympathy while still expecting, you know, a standard of behavior that is in excess of what he demonstrated in that moment. I don't think either thing has to be particularly huge or punitive. Like, it's clear that the message has been received here. And I imagine that contraris is, I don't know if he spoke about the helmet throwing one way or the other, so I don't want to put words in his mouth or what have you. But I imagine he knows like, oh, I shouldn't have But yeah, I think it can be a thing that that everyone kind of moves on from and absent further infraction on either parties. I like can sort of be, you know, moved on from.

Starting point is 00:35:18 You can move on. Yes, as we can on this episode. I would be relieved if it doesn't become a week-long, month-long story. You know, and you talk about your experience of relief. This is a moment where I was glad that we ended up. having the schedule we had this week because, you know, being able to grapple with sort of the totality of Kavali's response, I think, is important. Because you're right. Like, when I heard that, I was like, they got to suspend this guy. And, like, maybe for a while, you can't be doing that. And you can't be doing that, to be clear. But my sense of it is very different. And again, as we said, like, not really for us. us to accept the apology, but I think we can place it within the spectrum of these sorts of

Starting point is 00:36:11 incidents and these kinds of apologies. So I'm glad to have had a day. Because the other thing about it was like, you know, sometimes these moments are more ambiguous, right? Like, we don't always have a great sense of like what gets guys to the point where they come to blows on the field. but this one, you could hear it on the broadcast. It was, there was very little ambiguity here. And when he said that, I was like, sir, excuse me. And you could tell from the way that the other, the members of the Red Sox coaching staff and the other guys reacted.

Starting point is 00:36:47 Like, they heard that and they were like, we're going to be brawling now, right? This is a moment where we brawl. And I think, you know, a couple of people even said something to that effect after it came where it was like, oh, wow, okay, well, we got to this is the part of it where you know I think we can and we can move on but it's like hey everybody kind of understood what the stakes of that expression were in the moment like Kate really did you know yeah yeah and contraris said he didn't know whether it was

Starting point is 00:37:20 racially motivated or not but that he would let MLB handle it and yeah we'll see I would support a fine or brief suspension I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't happen either But just to send the signal that you can't say that even if there is remorse or the appearance of remorse, that's a mitigating factor for sure. But, and contraris too, he said, and I can imagine why he said, I feel like everything is against me right now. I got ejected last night from nothing. I got ejected today even though I was walking back to the dugout. Well, yeah. I mean, there was a little more going on there, obviously.

Starting point is 00:37:54 That is part of why you got ejected today. Yes. So, anyway, okay. Okay. It's a sad state of affairs. I'm happy that someone at least wants to avoid the perception of racism. Because sometimes people are perfectly fine with that perception or are actively courting it. And to close out this free preview, I will report from the future or from your perspective, the slightly less distant past, that MLB did hand down suspensions and finds seven games for Kavali, seven games for Contreras, as well as five and three games, respectively, for Miles Michaelis and Nate Eaton, who were involved in the Donny Brook.

Starting point is 00:38:28 four players received undisclosed fines, and as is customary, all four players are appealing their suspensions. Contreras' seven-gamer was partly punishment for his having responded during the game to a fan's taunt on Instagram. Can't be Instagramming during the game, especially to invite the fan to Fenway in a sort of meet-meat-mecula moment. But Cavali's suspension did sort of surprise me, given that he was not ejected from the game and that MLB hadn't said anything prior to that point. Of course, you have to go with a higher number for a starting pitcher if you actually want them to miss any time. So ugliness of the initial incident notwithstanding. What with Cavali's penitence, the organization making clear that this was not okay, and MLB also sending that signal, I would say

Starting point is 00:39:08 that this was handled about as well as could have been expected all around. That'll do it for the free preview of today's Effectively Wild. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to listen on and hear whatever wisdom and wit await, we would love to have you. You can visit patreon.com slash Effectively Wild to access the rest of this episode and plenty of other exclusive content, weekly subscriber-only episodes, monthly bonus shows, our Discord group, our live streams. Either way, we will be back with another episode soon, which will appear in full on this feed. Until then, we wish you well and thank you for your support of Effectively Wild, whatever form it takes.

Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2499: Sit-Down Meeting

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