Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2520: Catch 22–0

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the Brewers’ record-tying shutout/blowout of the Mariners (warning: profanity), Bryce Rainer and the continued absence of a post-Ohtani two-way wave, the latest manifestation of Paul Skenes’s protracted struggles, the tater turnaround of Fernando Tatis Jr., the reason(s) for the diminishing viewership of “MLB at Field of Dreams,” and which baseball figure (or feature) could extend the Vin Scully/Connie Mack fun fact. Audio intro: Ian H., “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio outro: Tom Rhoads, “Effectively Wild Theme” Link to Mariners vs. Brewers box score Link to biggest blowouts Link to Julio mistake Link to Mount Rainier wiki Link to Laurila on Rainer Link to article on Rainer’s signing Link to The Board at FG Link to Sam on Ohtani’s two-way balance Link to best past two-way prospects Link to Olerud pitching retrospective Link to article on Jobe vs. Skenes game Link to Tigers vs. Pirates game data Link to Tigers vs. Pirates box score Link to Stumpf on Skenes Link to Sawchik on Skenes Link to Oler on Skenes Link to Verducci on Skenes 1 Link to Verducci on Skenes 2 Link to Skenes photos Link to Skenes gamelog Link to Ashcraft gamelog Link to P/IP leaders Link to Tatis before Link to Tatis after Link to BP on Tatis Link to MLB at Field of Dreams wiki Link to article on Hall of Famers Link to article on audience size Link to EW Field of Dreams episode Link to MLB Speedway Classic wiki Link to Sam’s Scully/Mack piece Link to Ben’s comment  Sponsor Us on Patreon  Give a Gift Subscription  Email Us: [e-mail]  Effectively Wild Subreddit  Effectively Wild Wiki  Apple Podcasts Feed   Spotify Feed  YouTube Playlist  Facebook Group  Bluesky Account  Twitter Account  Get Our Merch! var SERVER_DATA = Object.assign(SERVER_DATA || {}); Source

Hello, and welcome for the ball, banter baseball is a simulation. It's all just one big conversation. Oh, and welcome to episode 25, 20 of Effectively Wild, a Fangrafs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Raleigh of Fangraphs, and I'm joined by Ben Lindbergh the ringer.

Ben, how are you? Well, I just want everyone to know that last time when we bantered about the Mariners and how disappointing they've been, and Dan Wilson, job security, etc. That was, to be clear, before the Milwaukee Brewers shut them out, 22 to nothing, tying the all-time record for biggest blowout that is also a shutout, which I keep wanting to blend those words to turn them into a portmanteau somehow,

but they both end and out. So if I swap them, it just sounds like I'm saying blowout or shut out. It doesn't quite work. But the point is, blowout might not be strong enough. This is a drubbing, a shalacking. I don't even know what the most apt term here is. But any degree to which you were down on the Mariners yesterday that preceded this slaughter. Yeah.

I told you before we started recording that I did not watch a single. I didn't watch a single at bat of this game. A thing happens where, you know, you're a national baseball store. And sure, you might. have a favorite team that you like to torture yourself with, but you want to stay abreast of the goings-on across the league, right? And so my strategy on any given evening involves, unless there's like a really great marquee pitching matchup,

in which case I will lock in on one game, I tend to bounce around, you know, and my bouncing around is dictated by the things you might expect, who's pitching, how close is it, how late is it in the game, Is there a particular hitter that I'm trying to get a feel for? These sorts of things. And so when your game starts, the funniest thing about this is that until the fifth inning, it was one-run game.

Right? You know, when your game starts a little later into the evening than some of the others, and there are close and late situations with some other teams and you're wanting to be clued in to, say, the Chicago's and what's going on with them, you think, eh, I'll check in on that game later. And then you look up, Ben, and at the point when you might really be interested in checking it, it's 11 to zero. Yeah, got out of hand. I'm going to do some swears for a second, okay?

But I want to warn parents who might be listening to this in the cars. They're picking their kid up from school because some places, including here, the kids, they're back in school, Ben. You know, they're back to their learning. I looked at the box score and I was like, well, I don't need sinkage with this bullshit. You know, I have gone through a lot of different mechanisms of cope with the Seattle Mariners in my time as an observer of the team, a fan of the team. Sometimes I feel actively antagonistic toward them and we're in that zone. Sometimes I feel like a pitiable detachment.

I am at the point with this team and it feels a little unfair and, year where the American League is as just lackless to admit as it is. When it's in its silo phase, I don't know if I'm using that comparison correctly. You tell me. Not the Apple TV show that we discussed yesterday. Different. No, the Apple, no, the Apple TV show that we discussed yesterday. It has a mid layer. It has mids. Yes. I'm trying to relate to your references. I appreciate it. Yeah. I'm surprised. I didn't know that you would go back to that well or that silo, but you're really relating to me in my interest. But like, Again, in a year, where, as we discussed on our previous episode,

the American League is just like a land of suck. You know, it's pretty terrible. The third wild card spot. Well, I don't know. Do our teams worried that if they make the postseason, something bad happens to them? Because none of these clubs are acting like they actually want to win, except for maybe the Tigers.

I am at the point with this team where they just, they need to earn my attention. And they're not. They're not earning my attention. They are earning my disdain. Even our beautiful boy, Julio, you can't forget how many outs there are in a game in an inning. You can't be doing that.

You can be throwing the ball into the stands thinking, oh, you're not done. Sir, I have bad news. You have many more games to play yet. Yes, just trying to get it over with. I sympathize, but, you know, it's bad. And I don't think that any one game should necessarily, particularly in baseball, you can make the argument in football, I think. And there's a proud tradition of like leaving your head coach on the tarmac in other sports, particularly football.

I don't think any one game needs to cost anybody their job. And when you run up the score like this, now we will note in the interests of a fold of, disclosure of keeping an accurate accounting, seven of those runs were Leo Rivas's. Little Leo Rivas. I felt bad for poor Mariners Utility Men, Leo Rivas, because he entered this game with two previous scoreless pitching appearances under his belt. Yeah. I'm going to do big.

His ERA is. It is. He was charged with nine runs, but only seven were earned. Only seven of them were. So, you know, that helps a little bit. But yeah, he had to wear one. That was unfortunate for him. He did have to wear one.

And I'm of the opinion that no matter how many runs a position player surrenders in a blowout, they are performing an active service, right? They are engaged in service. So Leo Rivas, despite the fact that he gave up seven earned runs, nine total, I thank him for his service. Because what are you going to do? Send a real reliever out there? No, that would be if Dan Wilson had sent a real reliever out there

after the mess of this game, then it would be immediately fireable because, sir, what are you doing? What, I mean, Leo Rivas has other purposes on this roster, and I mean, I'll be honest, has a weird place in Mariners postseason lore for having done good stuff. And this team almost went to the World Series last year, Ben.

Sure did. This dumb, rude, disinterested, waste of my time team. I can't believe. that shit. That shit's crazy. We're not yet out of the swearing face. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Again, I don't know that any one baseball game should cost you your job. And I feel bad calling for someone's livelihood, you know.

Everybody's got to pay for housing. And everything's so expensive now. Yeah. I mean, groceries, coffee, you're not a coffee drinker. No. We're just doing this. You're not a coffee drinker. You're a tea man.

Had tea prices gone up as much as coffee prices have gone up because let me tell you, when I buy a bag of beans, I'm lucky. And look, I'm buying nice beans. So some of this is self-inflicted. But I'm lucky if I'm getting out of there for less than $20 for a bag of beans. Yeah. You know, it's inelastic demand for me when it comes to tea. I'm going to just pay whatever I need to pay.

Right. They have me. They have me. What am I going to do? Not drink coffee? What am I going to drink bad coffee? No, I'm not going to do that. Life is already so hard so much of the time.

I'm a fan of the Mariners. What am I going to do? Drink bad coffee? No. Yeah. Inflation in the run totals, too. It's just across the board. It's really, this tide, as I mentioned, the all-time record for the margin of victory in a blowout slash shutout because there had been two previous 22-0 victories, the Pirates over the Cubs, September 16th, 1975, and Cleveland over the Yankees, August 31st, 2004.

But much as there's something. unnatural to me, a northerner, when I hear about kids going back to school in mid-August. Too early. We don't do that in Seattle. That's like a September activity. But I'm glad that kids are in school here because it means they have access to reliable air conditioning. That makes good sense.

Yeah. It's a regional thing. There are reasons for it. I get it. It's agrarian and work in the fields and so forth and climate. But, yeah, that always makes me pity the poor children. I know they get out earlier often, too, but it's just. It's hard to go back nonetheless.

But there's something similarly unnatural in having a game that is this lopsided that is still a shutout because usually if you're up by that much, you are not really going all out defensively if you're the team that is blowing out its opponent. And the Brewers weren't either. We had double-barreled position player pitching action because Gary Sanchez got into this game for Milwaukee. Milwaukee catcher Gary Sanchez was charged with finishing this game. And he did, and he pitched a score. He did.

So that just added insult to injury, really, when they put in their position player pitcher and you can't touch him. And because usually if you're up by that much, yeah, you kind of mutually throw in the towel and just say, let's get this over with, maybe not by prematurely throwing the ball into the stands or something, but by just, you know, sacrificial lambs on the mound. And waving the white flag we established recently, that's what one does. with a white flag. And they did that. The brewer said, all right, we'll take our foot off your neck here.

We will just let you try to get off the mat if you can. And they still couldn't, even when Gary Sanchez was in. So that's rough. That is really rough. Because usually there's at least like a courtesy run or two at the end of a blowout when a position player pitcher comes in. You at least feel a little bit better about yourself.

You got on the board. Or maybe that's almost condescending and you feel even worse. It's like we needed them to put in a not real pitcher in order to push a run across. But they couldn't even do that. They couldn't even do that. Yeah. Bleak. It is one of those things where you have to wonder, like, what is the next day like for everyone in that, in that locker room?

You know? Like they're getting to the ballpark today. And they're going to have to, they have to play baseball. Ben, they have to play baseball. They're going to have to. And here's the thing. This is a bad enough beat that, like, sure, they had to answer questions about it last night. They're going to have to answer other questions about it tonight, today.

They're not done talking about this. They're not done being forced to talk about this. They are going to have to continue to talk about this. And, you know, the other thing about it, oh, I'm seeing the Julio thing again. Julio, my good sir. Ugh, just the play. Ugh, God. God.

I feel bad about bringing this up already. No, I mean, like, the other thing about it is that, like, if by some miracle, this stupid team, I'm just going to be really, I'm going to be really mean about them, okay? And I want everyone to know, I know I sound like a, I sound like a jerk. And I know that I'm entitled to be a little bit of a jerk because what an embarrassment this is. But, you know, I like the Mariners, hypothetically, like, you know. And I like, I care about people who work for that baseball team. You know, I want them to do well. That's why I'm so angry is because I want them to do well.

But I am being a little bit of a jerk. And if anyone listening feels hurt by that, I am sorry. I'm not mad at you. I'm not mad at you. I'm mad at the idea of the team you work for. I bet they're mad. I bet you're mad at them too, you know? You can let that in.

You can let in that you're mad at them. It's okay. It's okay. You don't have to, I'm not. saying you have to call for Dan to get fired. I'm not saying, I don't know, this is, I don't even really think this is Dan's fault, you know? This one, I don't, but, but sometimes it's like, hey, you know, if, if, if the start of the

Red Sox season is enough for the entire coaching staff to get fired, basically, if, if the start of the Philly season is enough for, I always want to call him Rob Thompson. Every time I want to call him Rob Thompson. I was secretly, I'm just going to, I was secretly a little relieved when he got fired because I was like, I know in a professional setting, I'm going to call him Rob Thompson. And then someone's going to look at me and be like, aren't you the editor-in-chief of literally fan graphs? And you don't know this man's name. Okay. So you have so screwed yourself up with his name that you are getting it right, but are thinking you're getting it wrong.

Because you have confused him with Rob Thomas before, but he is Rob Thompson. You have you've accepted yourself. I bamboozled myself. You're so psyched yourself out. Wait, his name is Rob. Yeah, Rob Thompson. Rob Thompson with a P. There's a P in there?

We're sure there's a P. There's no, there's no P. Yeah, that's an additional layer of confusion. It's Thompson without the P. It's Thompson. So this was the other, no. So you're right that my, you're right, you're right, that I was worried I would call him Rob Thomas, like the singer.

Yeah. of Matchbox 20. But I was also worried that I would call him Rob Thompson with a P because I want to add a P to that name, just like I want to add a P to Grumpkin. Yeah, a lot of people do. Usually you can't tell, actually. If you say it quickly, it sort of sounds the same.

So I would not have known. I know, but it feels like there should be a P in there. Anyway, anyway, Ben, if the start of the Philly season was enough for Rob Thompson to get fired, I think that this demands an answer I don't know what it is I don't know what it is Ben I don't know that

I don't know what it is and I don't want anyone to lose their job but aren't people going to lose their jobs anyway like don't you know at some point here isn't you know who apparently isn't losing his job as Jerry

what's up with that? You know how long Jerry's been the GM remember what Jack Serenic was our problem I mean not your problem you've never been a Mariners fan you weren't cursed in that way you were you The worst thing that happened to you in 1995 is that the Yankees lost and you were briefly disappointed.

That was the worst thing that happened to you that year. But to me, I got saddled with this, with this shit. Oh, boy. Well, I'm glad that you've unburdened yourself, though it sounds like you are still somewhat burdened. But yes, the bile is out of your brain. We will try to clear that from our minds. And this ends the more profaned. part of this podcast.

Probably. We'll see. You never know where there's things going to go. Maybe the Mariners will come up again. No, we can be done talking about them. Why would we talk about them? They're not a serious concern.

They're not a serious franchise. This team that was almost in the World Series last year. Well, from the team of Mount Rainier, I will segue to Bryce Rayner. That was pretty strained. No, I thought that was smooth.

It wasn't as bad as sure are scared so, but that was terrible. That's a low bar. Anyway, I've been thinking about Bryce Rayner, who is a shortstop prospect for the Tigers and a good one. They have not run out of good position player prospects, though they keep promoting them. They've got another one. Rainer is their first round pick 11th overall in 2024, and he is, according to Fancrafts, a top 25 prospect in baseball, number 25, to be precise. Other places have him maybe a little bit of but still high.

And I was thinking about him because he was the subject of David Laurel's Sunday notes this past Sunday. And it was about how Bryce Rainer was a pretty legit two-way prospect. And he had his pitching deprecated. He has not been a pitcher since he was drafted by the Tigers, but he was a real pitching prospect. And there is an alternate history or present where he, could be trying the two-way thing. And there were quotes from Lurow in here, or quotes relayed by Lurla from Rainer that made it sound sort of like he's a little bit wistful about not pitching anymore. And he went to Harvard Westlake High School in North Hollywood, you know,

big time baseball talent school. And he was a successful pitcher. And he sat mid-90s and would sometimes get into the upper 90s. He had a bunch of pitches, fastball curves, slider change. And according to this Lorela piece, which cites some Eric Longanagan scouting reports, scouts for a multitude of teams were keeping close watch when he stood atop the bump. Rayner told Lorela there was a good bit of interest. I pitched a lot in high school and for a small period of time there was some thought that I was going to pitch after I got drafted. There were definitely some conversations with teams. I can't remember which ones, but yeah, I pitch for Team USA in Taiwan a little bit, so there was talk about me being a two-way.

And then Laurel asked him if that possibility was discussed when Detroit drafted him, and he said that the idea of his pitching was banged pretty early on. Some excellent baseball lingo for those who are not familiar with being banged. Usually in the context of a rainout when a game is rained out. People say it was banged. And he sometimes wonders, he says, whether he could have had some. success as a two-way pro player. He said it definitely crosses my mind. The competitive aspect of athletes, including baseball players, has you believing that you can do something. I've obviously never tried it in pro ball, but I think I could do it. And then he says, but no, I kind of just

go day by day. And right now I'm an infielder. I'm doing what the Tigers want me to do, and I'm happy with that. I feel that we made the right decision. And maybe he does actually feel that way and isn't just sort of towing the party line there. And he's doing just fine. Obviously, it's working out well for him. He's in high A. He's, He's 21. He's more than holding his own. He's a highly rated prospect. So, so far, so good. But this did kind of disappoint me as a fan of potential two-way players because he seems like he would have been a solid candidate to do it. And everyone's been on two-way watch ever since Otani showed up and proved that it could be done in MLB. And everyone's been speculating about whether there would be a wave of two-way prospects or at least whether, whether. some guys who potentially had the chops to do it would be allowed a longer leash and at least get a chance to strut their stuff and see if they could hack it. I asked Eric Langenhagen about this and whether he was a genuinely promising pitcher and whether he could have been a pro pitcher. And Eric said, yes, he was 93 to 96 at NHSI during his draft year.

Good breaking stuff. Delivery not great. Fastball shape, not great. of course that could have been refined. He was young. He was in high school. A lot of development left. Eric says he was probably more like a 1.5-ish million type on the mound, as in his draft bonus if he had just been a pitcher purely.

And he ultimately signed for close to 6 million, almost 5.8, which was slightly above slot value for the 11th overall pick. So this was the more remunerative path for him. But of course, he could have potentially been a two-way guy and gotten that kind of bonus too. So it just sort of bums me out that this guy who was that talented and really could have made a go of it and at least had some serious talks with teams about trying it, then got to the Tigers and they just shut the door and said, nope, you're a position player now. And he said, okay. And he has resigned himself to that.

And maybe it'll work out just fine. But if he can't get a shot to do it, even just a trial, then who can't really? So there has not been a post-Otani two-way wave. And I've been waiting to see, not that there are that many strong candidates to do it because it's really hard to do. But when one comes along, it seems like even now, for the most part, you're still just getting typecast and boxed into going one way. I wonder what it is going to take. Like who will truly be the first guy to be given very serious consideration? Because, you know, it felt like we were going to maybe have greater imagination around it

and around the potential developmental path. And I just wonder if the next guy will be another international two-way player, right? If you will need the proof of concept of having done it at a high level in an international pro league before we get someone who is really given the chance to do it again in MOV. Yeah, yeah. And maybe it will just require someone who is more balanced than Bryce Rainer, because even if he was promising as a pitcher, evidently he was more promising as a hitter. So if there were someone who would have commanded the same sort of bonus as a pitcher and a hitter and just could have really gone either way, and it wouldn't have made much of a difference,

then maybe then, because I've been thinking about that with someone like Dave Winfield or John Ulruid, guys who were really accomplished college pitchers and were talked about as potential pitchers in the pros or two-way guys. And maybe if they came along now, preternaturally talented, had had success as pitchers at that level, maybe they would have the leverage or the clout or just the track record to get to do that.

again, it's hard to say that those guys, one is in the Hall of Fame, the other came close, could be someday, so it's not as if it didn't work out for them. It's mostly that it wasn't quite as fun. Allrood, one of my favorite players of all time, and Winfield, widely beloved by those who watched him play as well. So it's not as if they were busts or anything. But yeah, if the equivalent of those guys came along now, maybe that's what it would take. But there are not many of those guys Or I guess if Rainer had been a little less good as a position player, a non-pitcher, then maybe that would have worked too. But it just has to be perfectly calibrated. It's just you have to walk this line where you're good enough at both to do it, but you're not better enough at one to just be encouraged to specialize at that one thing.

So it's really that sort of skill set comes along very infrequently. Yeah, it's a tricky calibration to engage in for sure. Well, if things don't work out for him at the plate in the fields, then he could always pivot to pitching again at some point. But hopefully for his sake, this works out great and everyone's happy with it and no one really thinks about the road not traveled. Except me, I will, because I will lament if Bryce Rayner turns out to be a Hall of Fame shortstop, I will still wonder. But how good could he have been on the mount? You know? And if he's too good at shortstop, then he probably won't even be brought in like Leo Rivas to be.

to be the mop-up man in a blowout. Sorry. I don't understand why you would even, why would you even? My apologies. Yeah. You're so sorry. Well, speaking of phenoms, I tuned in to a game that has already been played. We were recording this on Wednesday afternoon.

And it was appointment viewing for me to watch Bryce Rayner's organization, the big club, the parent club, the tigers, because they were going up against Paulski. and the Pirates on Wednesday afternoon, and conveniently it was an early game so that we could banter about it here. And it was Jackson Job versus Paul Skeens, a couple of highly touted 24-year-olds going toe-to-toe here. And it felt like a high-stakes game, particularly for Skeens and the Pirates,

because he had not pitched in a while. He was going on seven days rest because they pushed him back for a few days, just to give him extra rest, to clear his head, help with fatigue, whatever mechanics he's trying to iron out. And so all eyes were on this game and seeing whether skeins could get out of this funk that everyone has been wondering about and we have talked about. Not really.

No, not today. Not so much. He wasn't horrible. But yet again, he failed to complete the fifth inning for the second time in. row. He had lousy command. His secondary stuff was all over the place. Everyone was watching his velo, because the pitch speeds have been down and sinking further and further. And I guess the mildly good news was that there was a bit of a rebound from his last start where the pitch speeds really bottomed out and were like sitting sub-96. In this game, his four-seamer averaged 96.

8, which was bang on his full season average and slightly up from the preceding start, but obviously way down from where he used to be and where he was even earlier this season topped out at 97.9. So even when he was trying to get out of jams, that was what he had, or at least that was what he threw. And, you know, we've talked a lot about how he has, or was, at least for a while, intentionally dialed back the speed a little bit, seemingly in an attempt to preserve his arm. But nowadays, that doesn't seem to be the sole explanation

because even when he's in a situation where you would expect him to reach back for a little extra, he just doesn't seem to have that top end speed anymore. So he went four in a third, four hits, three runs, all earned, four walks, five strikeouts. So he was missing some bad. But it was pretty shaky and it was pretty inefficient. And I was watching and things seemed to click in the fourth for a little while.

He had a one, two, three and it almost looked like the skeins of old. But then just got shaky again in the fifth and got bounced from the game. And had a moment in that frame where I was briefly concerned that he had injured himself. Like he had a funny delivery and he kind of came. Yeah. I don't know what's going on, but it is not good. And the line could have been worse because there was a nice catch by Brian Reynolds to save a run on what probably would have been an RBI single by Dylan Dingler that ended an inning. And then a runner, he bequeathed, who was his responsibility, was thrown out at home after he left the game.

So it could have been worse, but it was not good. It didn't really allay any concerns whatsoever. Pirates ultimately won the game, so that was the good news. They did beat Detroit four to three, but Skeens has just not looked at all like himself, and that extra rest just does not seem to have cured what ailed him. No, it does not. And I would imagine that he and the pirates will spend an off-season, assuming he's not hurt, that they will spend the off-season sort of tinkering with the repertoire, the mechanics,

the conditioning potentially, and trying to get him. him right, because their entire competitive window is built around this guy. So they got to figure out what's going on here. He's a smart guy. He's

a very competitive guy. We know what the peak version of him looks like. And he has demonstrated that peak over entire seasons, right? So I don't have any reason again, barring some sort of catastrophic injury to think

that he can't figure stuff out again, but it does seem like a more substantial reset than just pushing a start back as maybe necessary here. And the pirates are still in it. I've seen some people suggest he's just in such a funk. They should maybe just shut him down and don't get these bad habits more deeply ingrained, but they do have to figure out what's happening here

and if they are all pretty confident that he's not doing additional damage to himself. But yeah, they're close enough that they're on the outside looking in, but still maybe could make a run. So it's tough to do that. It's funny. So he threw 81 pitches to get through four in a third, just very inefficient. And Rxton Ashcraft, who has of late emerged really as the ace of the staff, sort of. He has been hyper-efficient lately.

And he's in the top 10 in baseball in pitches per inning. and he took 80 pitches to get through eight innings in his most reason start on Tuesday. And to start before that, he threw 85 pitches to throw a complete game, nine innings. So he's just been mowing down opposing lineups and skeins. He's just not getting those chases. He's just not able to blow the ball by guys anymore.

It's so confounding. And I've read so many analyses of what's happening. Everyone has their theories. And clearly there's something going on mechanically. I mean, people have identified all sorts of things. I mean, I've read now multiple Tom Verducci deep dives on this. I've read Alex Stumpf had a piece about this on the substack. There was a Travis Sautchick version.

There's just everyone has. You read about it back in July. Like, we've been, this has been ongoing. I had the thought. I was like, should I assign the what's wrong with Paul Skeen's piece? And I was like, oh, we already did this. I already did. Yeah, because it's been a month now since he has gone further than five in a third in an outing.

It's just, it's really something. And Jackson Job, who was opposing him here, recently returned from Tommy John surgery. I think he had, among the two starters, the 14 fastest pitches. I mean, you know, he was the one touching triple digits here. Yeah. And Skeens was getting upstate. by Job and his stuff. And so everyone has pinpointed various mechanical issues

and his stride length and his stride direction and his arm angle and release angle. And is he flying open? Is he cross body? Is he not cross body enough? Like there are all these different theories. And it seems like there's a mix of things going on and that he's just lost the plot a little bit

when it comes to his mechanics that were functioning so well. And I don't know why. And yeah, there's been scrutiny on the conditioning because, you know, he's looking a little bit dad body relative to what he was before. But not anything unusual for a pitcher in particular. I mean, you know, it's a baseball body. Right. And this is why I, you know, I said, like in such a coy little way. Yeah.

Because, well, he's a big guy, you know. And as we have talked about many times, a lot of ways to be. athletic. I don't think he's like, he has not regressed physically in a way that I think is like indicative of something really concerning. I don't even know how different his conditioning really is compared to where it's been in the past. Wouldn't we all look terrible standing next to Livy on a beach, right? Who among us? If he were pitching effectively, no one would be batting an eye about him putting on a pound or two. I mean, the same conversation has happened about Terek Scoobal this season.

I've seen some of that. But we've seen some meaty pitchers be quite successful. And some of them will even say that it helps them. So you're just looking for anything that's different about schemes because the results have been different and the stuff has been different. And so if the body looks a little bit different, then people are leaping to the conclusion that it's because of the body. And you could always consider it as a possible factor, of course.

But I doubt that is the sole explanation. or even the primary one. So it's tough. I guess, gosh, I think Job threw 18 pitches maybe faster than the fastest pitch skeins through. Or maybe, maybe 20, actually. I keep undercounting. Yeah, it was a lot. He was getting velocity mobbed.

I know you love that term so much. It's when the other one has more of whatever the thing is. Is that what the mug? Modging means? Yeah. He's getting out angled by Jackson Joe. Basically. Every single part of this that I learn is against my will. I just want people to know. I'm aware. I'm the one subjecting you to it sometimes. I'm sorry. This and reminding you of the Mariners disgrace. It's really rough.

And again, while I'm apologizing for doing that, just doing it again. So I think the concern really is whether there's something going on deeper than conditioning, just elbow stuff, shoulder stuff, whatever, just health stuff. And he denies that and the team denies that. And they say that they're not concerned about that. But you have to wonder and you have to worry because why do mechanics get off kilter and out of whack? There could be any number of reasons. Maybe you just sleep funny in a hotel bed or something or who knows. It could happen any number of ways. But one way that it can sometimes happen is if there is some sort of physical injury or...

That you're compensating for. Yeah. And you might not think it's serious. You might not even be entirely aware of it. Maybe your range of motion is slightly restricted in some way. And you're not even conscious of it or you kind of talk yourself out of it being a concern because pitchers always have something barking a little bit. And so then maybe there's kind of a cascade where you change your mechanics to compensate

for some sort of physical change. and then maybe that snowballs and maybe the initial problem goes away, but you've gotten to these bad habits or maybe that problem persists. I don't know. No one seems to know. But if it were as simple as just, well, his mechanics are different. So let's just go back to what he was doing before. It sounds simple.

I know it's easier said than done. But the nice thing is there's all this data and there's all this video. And so you can very easily call up, okay, what did Pete Skeen's look like? And let me watch some video of that and let me compare. And I don't know how many overlays I've seen and synced up side by side footage and gifts. And so I'm sure he's done that. I'm sure the pirates people have done that. And so they could identify anything.

There might almost be too many potential vectors causing this issue because we have so many data points. You can look at the angle of every body part during the delivery. And so you could end up just falling too deep into the rabbit hole. trying to figure out what's the thing that's causing the issue. But you'd think having all that data on what he was doing when it was working well, you'd just say, okay, just go back to that again. Okay, my arm was doing this and I was doing that. And now I'll just do that again. And we'll work it out in a couple bullpen sessions. And I'll be back to my usual excellent self. So I don't know why that hasn't happened exactly. And I know it's tough to fix things on the fly. And it's mid-August and maybe

there's fatigue and who knows what else is going on in his life. And so sometimes maybe you do need a reset in an offseason to sort of get back to square one and Paul's first principles or whatever, you know, just find your base again. But it's flummoxing, it's confounding, it's frustrating, it's worrisome. Obviously, I hope it is just mechanics and that he can correct it and be back to his usual self. But the longer it persists, the more cause for concern. I do have to, I mean, look, we've over the years given the pirates, the business, we've given them grief. I think that like the stakes of his career and his effectiveness are so high for everyone involved that I am kind of inclined to believe that they have successfully ruled out like a serious injury.

And to your point, like maybe there was something that was out of whack or tweaked or what have you earlier. and the compensation for that injury, which is no longer bothering him, has sent him down a path where he is sort of unable to course correct back. And he was compensating in his mechanics and now doesn't quite know how to get back to where he was. But I have to believe that they are aware of just how important it is not only for this season, but for the next couple of years of competitive Pirates Baseball, that this guy be available and health. and effective. So even though it's easy to make Bob nutting jokes, I'm sort of disinclined to do that in this instance because I do think that they're aware of what they have, and they've certainly oriented the rest of their roster thinking around him being the guy, right? But it is pretty confounding, particularly because Skeenz has previously made meaningful adjustments to

his approach to pitching and done so successfully. So sometimes, you know, And there are examples of very good players doing this and then needing really the full reset of an offseason to kind of go back to zero and correct. But guys who tinker to the point of just not being able to be good again for half a season, you know, you think it's going to be the simple thing. You've been good before. Go back to doing what you were doing. And, you know, it can be more complicated than that. So it might be as simple as here. needs, again, a full offseason to really get right.

But it's pretty alarming. You'd almost, I mean, I never want skeins to be hurt. But it would almost be better if he were hurt. Because then at least you'd be like, well, he's hurt. You know, his elbows, he's got a shoulder thing or whatever. Again, I don't want that for him particularly shoulders because there's so much scarier than elbows. But you'd at least be able to say with some certainty, oh, it's this. It's especially striking because he made it look so easy before.

And I know it wasn't. He was just that skilled. But he looked like he basically never broke a sweat. I mean, he was so, he was just mowing people down from the day he showed up. And, you know, he prides himself on going deep into games. And now he's not doing that. And he's back to delivering the sort of length that he did when he was strictly innings limited in the minors, but for different reasons now. and he was just such a phenom

and I guess it could be a case of someone who hadn't really struggled or at least hadn't really struggled at a high level because he was just so good at least in the past few years that this is the first adversity he has really encountered on the mound in the majors at least like basically day one he was if not the best pitcher in baseball than 1A as a rookie and then certainly after that So maybe it's even more of an impediment when things are clicking so well.

But as you said, he definitely tinkered and was analytical and would add pitches and subtract pitches. So it's not like he was just a completely finished product on day one or that he's not receptive to evolving and information and all of that. He certainly seems to be. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is weird. And it's sort of sad to see him just look so mortal. He just looks like any other pitcher, sort of.

I mean, which says something about how good pitchers are now that I'm just like, oh, ho-hum, he's throwing 97 or whatever. But there are a lot of guys who have been as effective as skeins are more effective than skeens over the past month or so. And he has, if you subdivide his season into a few different parts, it's just such a stark disparity. So, yeah. Yeah. I hope he gets back to being his old, young self, preferably sooner rather than later. It would be great if he could go into the offseason without this hanging over him and feeling like, okay, I finally figured things out and I'll be good to go next year.

But now, I don't know if he's going to get to that point or have the chance to get to that point or whether this is going to be an offseason remodel. And we'll have to see how he does when he comes back. But yeah, especially with the lockout and everything. Like I'm sure for his mental health and his mindset, I'm sure he'd like to put this behind him somehow and end on a high note. But he's far from that right now. And I think that, you know, you bring up a good point because we'll remind listeners that once they are locked out, he's on his own.

True. You know, he can go to tread. He can go to drive line. He can do that. but once they initiate the lockout, the team can't have contact with anyone on the 40 man. So it's not an ideal off-season if the pirates feel like they need to have a hand

in whatever adjustments he's making. It's not an ideal off-season for this to happen because he will be, again, he'll be on his own, which there are good options out there and there are plenty of pitchers who have made use of private facilities and done so to their benefit. So I don't want to scare Pirates fans and say like,

ah, you're doomed now. You're not doomed, but it's going to be on schemes. Now, he seems like someone who would be very interested in figuring out what's wrong with him. So I have confidence in his ability to, like, try to figure stuff out. But it is a weird year for them to have to maybe help this guy rebuild a little bit. Yeah. And, of course, he's not the type of player who doesn't have the resources to figure things out. his own or have independent coaching.

And I guess you never know it could actually work out to his benefit if he's forced to consult different sources. Sure. Not saying that this is pirates incompetence or blaming the pirates for this, but clearly they haven't been able to solve whatever this is so far. So maybe getting some additional input. Well, couldn't hurt probably at this point. So we will continue to monitor that situation.

And it is worth remembering that sometimes slumps just end and mechanics snap. back into focus and whatever has befallen a player ceases to befall him. And I was thinking of this in the context of Fernando Tatis Jr. because he just had a big game and hit a couple homers and robbed a what would have been a Francisco Indoor Grand Slam and did a very demonstrative, badass sort of stance after he brought it back. And it was making me remember how Fernando Tatis Jr. could not hit a home run to save his life to start this season. Couldn't do it. And we marveled at that and wondered what the heck was going on. And that was maybe even more confusing and inexplicable, but a little less concerning because

he was still hitting the ball pretty hard. And that made it even harder to unravel. But also you kind of figured, well, he can just keep doing what he's doing. And eventually some of those balls will start to clear the fence, whereas clearly Skeen's has to do something different. But Tatis, remember, he had not hit a home run. through May 29th. He was still homerless. He had the most played appearances by far, I think, of any homerless player through that point. And since then, after his most recent great game on Tuesday,

he's tied for 15th in the majors in homeruns. I mean, he has been, as one would expect him to be, one of the best power hitters in the game, as he had been before, as it seemed like he had the skills to be still. And I don't know, did he do something different? I mean, maybe, maybe He made some changes also, but that seemed like more of a case of stick with what has worked or what seems to be working under the hood and eventually it will pay off for you. And he hasn't gotten back to his peak power output and before the suspensions and everything. I mean, he was a 42-dinger guy in his age 22 season. I don't know if or when he will be that guy again.

But he can certainly be a 25-Homer guy. which he has been pretty consistently, and he's been back to being that guy, at least, while contributing in other ways too. So that's a relief because, Fernetta Satis, whatever, his misdeeds and suspensions and motorcycle mishaps, he remains one of the most charismatic, electric,

compelling players in the game. And so it's been good to see him get back to being that guy again. Yeah. And also for the Padres to have him and Merrill and Machado all remember how to hit at more or less the same time and help power this Padre surge. That's been pretty fun to see because they remain a flawed team that has holes, but when it's working and when their stars are doing star stuff, they are still just one of the more watchable teams in baseball. And I'm kind of glad that they're back on a playoff trajectory because I like seeing them on that stage.

I agree. It's a much more fun version of the league when things are going well for San Diego. I root for that. And it's good, you know, it can be easy to sort of write off the NL West and be like, yeah, it's the Dodgers. And obviously it is the Dodgers. But there are other talented teams in that division. And seeing them sort of show out the way you would hope they would and can is pretty exciting.

And don't deprive me of the Preller show. I will be so sad when it. J. Preler is no longer running baseball operations for a team if that day ever comes because no one's doing it like him for better or worse from the Padre's perspective. And entertainment value-wise, he really is an outlier in terms of just what he is willing to do and the prospects he is willing to surrender and also somehow keep regenerating and just being aggressive at all times. I've just, I've derived much enjoyment from AJ Preller's approach to running that team over the years.

Sometimes it has worked out better than others for the Padres themselves, but it's always tremendous content, one way or another. Yep, that's right. Another baseball institution that has seen some decline of late is the Field of Dreams game. Now, I wanted to bring this up to you because there's been some hand-wringing about the ratings for MLBiet Field of Dreams. this latest incarnation, which was played last Friday. And this was on Netflix for the first time. And this was the first Field of Dreams game that we had had for a few years, which honestly I had forgotten,

which maybe says something about interest in the Field of Dreams game. But they had not actually played one of these since 2022. So the first one was in 2021, White Sox Yankees, and that was a huge success. Yeah. And then they came back the next year, Cubs Reds. And then they paused it for a few years while they were renovating and expanding the complex and, I don't know, growing some new corn or whatever they were doing. And then they came back here to complete the trilogy, the third edition after a few years off.

And one might have thought, well, will there be pent up demand? Has everyone just been on the edge of their seats deprived of the field of dream game for a few years? And they'll all come flocking back. And no, that did not happen. This was a steep decline in terms of viewership. It was an average of 1.66 million viewers, according to Nielsen. And this was down from the 2022 edition, which was 3.1 million. And the 2021 edition, which was 5.9 million.

And so everyone is wondering, well, what does this mean for the Field of Dreams game or for baseball on Netflix? And I think there are multiple things going on here. But also, I think that this has just lost a little luster. I just, I can't muster much excitement for the Fields of Dreams game anymore. It was really cool the first time. But the third time is not the charm, at least for me. I was kind of, I didn't even watch myself. So I'm part of the ratings problem here.

But I just, I mean, I was vaguely aware that it was happening. this was not appointment viewing for me, not this time. I am on record as enjoying baseball happening in interesting places. You know, places that aren't your typical field. And I appreciate that, like, this facility remains in use for, like, youth sports and stuff. They played some prospect showcase games there. What a convenient place to make the scouts go. And all the kids, I'm sure that they loved that.

I'm not saying it's bad. just saying this is not a resident media property for me. I'm not a field of dreams person. It's not my warm nostalgia. I'm not dissing it. It's just it's not for me. Or it's not like it doesn't grab me. You know, it's not a movie I dislike watching, but it's not one that I have sought out as like a rewatch in a long time. And so I think part of it is just that like once the novelty had worn off, other people who might be in that same camp where it's like oh the field wow there it is they came out of the corn isn't gonna like kind of maybe grab you in the same way i think that there are other venues that they have pursued games at that are i just think more like interesting if only because

they are grounded in actual baseball history i think that's part of why it it hasn't continued to sing for me because it's like the story in Field of Dreams is like based on baseball. It's not a baseball story though. Like it's not, it's not a history. It's not real. It's not real. And there are some liberties that were maybe taken with those are, those players that are important to how it's different than what's real.

I watched part of this game because I was like interested in the matchup. Like, but it didn't grab me because. If I didn't already have a Netflix subscription that I've forgotten to cancel every month for the last, like, 10 years, I wouldn't have signed up just to watch this, right? And then you get, like, the weird discordance between the story of the players in that movie. And then you have, like, gambling ads on the outfields wall. And I'm like, but have you, you're Netflix. Have you seen this movie? Do you know about Shill's Joe being in there?

Like, does that matter? So, you know, I think that there have been times when they have shown a willingness to kind of prioritize other things than the pure commercialism in order to have things feel sort of like historically resonant and respectful. and it is disappointing that that wasn't true this time. So I don't know. But to offer sort of a different perspective, I don't know that it feels like a great use of resources to me for them to be endlessly finding like funky places to play baseball. So maybe it's good that they reuse it.

I am curious like how much of the decline here is the fact that it was on Netflix. Yeah. Like if you do. do the field of dreams game and it's just, you know, and if it's Sunday night baseball, well, then I'm sure that it would have gone over great. And I would have loved to hear Benetti call a game there. You know, like that would have been cool.

Yeah, totally. Part of the problem with these comparisons is it's not apples to apples at all. And people are comparing Netflix in 2026 to Fox four or five years ago. And it's just, it's different. So I don't think you can say this is necessarily a manifestation of lack of interest. But I do think there's also a little lack of interest. I think inevitably there's just diminishing returns here. And that's fine.

I don't mind. It's not like I'm out here calling for the end of the Field of Dreams game. I'm not saying ended. I'm fine with it continuing to exist. I just don't think that people should expect it to be a big draw, whether that's MLB or Netflix or fans. and it's not like your average fan needs to care particularly how many people are signing up to watch this on Netflix. But other Netflix stuff has done better than this. And the Home Run Derby drew 5.something million people, which was, again, down.

You know, when you could watch it, some of these things over the air or on cable or whatever. It was on multiple broadcasts. Then there's just a bigger pool even in the cord-cutting era. So 5.3 million watched the Derby on. Netflix, which was the lowest in 23 years, but I think that was more a manifestation of the venue. And then also you have, well, there's, you know, the opening night broadcasts, the Yankees Giants. That was about three million people tuned in to watch that, even though that broadcast was kind of a mess. And I think this broadcast, again, I didn't watch.

From what I heard, it was more competently executed. It was less Netflix-y than the first one. And some aspects of it, I think it's cool that they had, what, 25 Hall of Famers come out of the corn. I mean, it's kind of hokey to recreate the movie and everything. But I still like the spectacle of seeing 25 Hallfamers together anywhere doing anything. It's just, oh, Raleigh Fingers, he still has the handlebar. That's nice, you know? It's just, it's nice to see them.

So I've got nothing against this. It's just, I think people have to recalibrate what you expect. from it. Plus, Phillies, twins, there was no particular tie. It was one thing when you had White Sox Yankees and, you know, White Sox and Shula's Joe and to have just sort of Philly's Twins interleague. I mean, there was nothing really resonant about this. And it's coming back next year. It's going to be Red Sox and Royals and it's going to be on NBC and Peacock next year. So I wouldn't be surprised if they're simulcasting it on NBACC. B.C. and Peacock, probably the ratings will, yeah, rebound. More people will have access to it.

So it's relevant in that we are always talking about the audience just being segmented and fractured and cannibalized because everything is distributed among umpteen streaming services. So that's certainly still a concern. But I also think this just can't remain a marquee event forever. And also, Field of Dreams, it's a younger audience that watches on Netflix. which is good, I guess, for baseball's sake. The viewership for this game was a median age of 46, right? And if you're 46, you're maybe really just old enough to have appreciated Field of Dreams when it came out. But a lot of the younger audience doesn't really have any strong feelings about Field

of Dreams either way and might not know about Field of Dreams. And the longer you do this, probably the less resonant to the movie will be, even if this event itself helps keep the moment. movie relevant. And I know you're supposed to have strong opinions about Field of Dreams. It's either supposed to be your favorite movie ever and it makes you cry or you hate it and think it's a travesty and an abomination. And like you, I'm more in the middle. I like it. I like Field of Dreams, but I don't have. Sam and I did a little Field of Dreams debate back in March of 2020. What a Wonderful Time, Episode 1518. We did a whole episode on Field of Dreams and rewatched it and

discussed it. It's extremely divisive. I always feel I'm in the middle of ground. I feel like I'm fence sitting, but I sincerely think it's a pretty good movie. It's not my favorite. I don't hate it. It doesn't offend me. But, yeah, I think probably fewer people will have any real emotional connection to that movie. The longer this goes on and the further removed we are from when it came out, which was a while ago.

This is, you know, since 1989. It's my second. favorite Kevin Costner baseball movie put it that way. I mean, I think that part of it is just like I, I thought that the way that they did the Rick Woodfield game was so great. Yes. And again, it was, it was a place that matters to baseball history. And it was, I think the broadcast they had around it was like pretty uncompromising in terms of

trying to really grapple with the league's history of exclusion and what it meant to honor Negro League's baseball and to have a conversation that wasn't saccharin about integration, but that really, you know, tried to get its arms around, like what this meant for people who got to play there and what it meant for the league to sort of have the history of racial exclusion that it has. And I thought that it was, I was very impressed with the balance they struck because they didn't shy away from that stuff. But they also, I think, were appropriately reverent of what that place means, right? And they were able to honor people in a way that was, I thought, really impressive because it's not something that's always in MLB's wheelhouse. Like, it doesn't, the league doesn't

always want to deal with this stuff. Right. And they did a very good job. And again, it's honoring real history, refurbishing that field means something to that community. It's still in use. And again, like the field of dreams field is too. But I just thought that that was such a great event. And I really enjoyed and was impressed by it. And so this just feels like a step backwards isn't quite fair because it's trying to do something a little bit different. But it's like to have an impact, right? Like that game and the the attendant remodeling and all of this other stuff, like that has an impact. That's a, it's real. And so to retreat into fiction and to not, like part of why people don't like that movie is not like super honest about the history, right?

Like it tells a very particular story. And that isn't, doesn't mean it can't be a good movie. I love Moneyball as a movie. I think it's very successful as a movie. I remember there being a pitching staff on that E's team. know, like, you wouldn't know that from, other than the relievers. You, like, just wouldn't know that, like, anyone else pitched for them that year. Chad Bradford pitched every inning as far as something we call.

Exactly. This is not a new criticism of that film. But I think it's a very successful film. And I think it's really compelling and it's good. And I like it, even though I know the ways in which it is limited. But I would rather, if we're going to do this stuff to use. it as an opportunity to like really, you know, move the sport forward and it felt like Rickwood did that and it doesn't feel like this does, which, you know, for a gimmick game, like, that's probably

not a fair standard to put on it. But having seen it done well, I'm like, well, you know, I don't know, I'd rather go back to Rickwood. I'd rather hear more about that story. I'd rather hear more about those, about Negro League's baseball. I think that that would be a cool thing to do. I appreciate that like the league might feel like it's not politically fashionable, but I'm sorry, I'm going to do another square, fuck them. Like, do it anyway. Like, you know what I mean? And so there's that part.

Also, just a note, if you guys are going to do this game, you got to take a game off from the gambling ads because it is just too ridiculous. Yeah. It's simply... Too ridiculous. Yeah. It's like, come on.

Yeah, I know. And obviously, there's this distinction between fans, betting on baseball and players betting on baseball and the penalties are appropriately different, but nonetheless. Nonetheless. Yes. Nevertheless. Yeah. So I don't mind the idea of trying to eventize MLB games.

I know it's almost anathema. You've got 2430 games. It's just supposed to be this baseball soup that you sip from. And it's this warm, comforting broth that keeps you company all summer. Not that people love hot broth during the summer. summer. I still do. I'll eat soup at any time of year. But. Yeah, you're soup, man. But, but I like the idea of making some games, quote, unquote, special and stand out and

highlight certain things that are culturally resonant. And I'd love if they just played a Rick Woodfield game every year or tried to stage some games at other Negro League sites or whatever. I mean, the Speedway classic, you could call it a classic. That did not make it so. It was such a disaster. Yes. That was kind of a debacle. when it came to organization and attendees and everything from all that was reported. But yeah, I didn't mind that initiative, that idea for just let's put baseball in an unusual place. And won't that be memorable and compelling?

And it was in some ways. Yeah, exactly. Right. So, so yeah, keep doing that. And by all means, keep playing the Field of Dreams game if you want to. I've got nothing against it. I just think that the first one being. such a success, maybe set expectations too high for how huge a hit this would be perennially.

Yeah. And I think that was kind of a one-time response. It doesn't have to be a one-time event, but probably one-time ratings. And I know that this game was going up against preseason football, too. And people are just so thirsty for football that even if the actual players aren't really playing and it's mostly meaningless, still, they got to get their football fix. So that may have had something to do with it too. But yeah, I think there are many factors here.

Yeah. Do you really think that that's why? Do you think preseason football had maybe people were just mad about, they were like, oh, we got to spend our evening thinking about why the Seahawks decided to sign Terry and Arnold. I know I've been spending some of my evenings thinking about that. Better than thinking about the Mariners these days, I guess. If you can sign a guy who's facing eight felony charges, you got to do it. You know, that's like a no-brainer because, I mean, you just look, you run those own schemes.

So you got to. I'm really sad about you not being a general sports guy anymore. Will you just start watching football for me? I'm still dabbling. I'm keeping my toe in. So, yeah, I'm going to try to remain conversant. We'll see. Did you ever feel a pull to football?

Like, even as a kid, were you ever like, let's go jets? Well, no. What was your team? Were you a giant? Are you a Giants fan? I was never really a fan of any particular team, but I did, I'm sorry to say, watch a lot of Cowboys football back in the day because, yeah, my. Well, yeah, you and everybody else. Yeah, my step-grandfather, I guess you would say.

My grandmother's husband at the time was a big Cowboys fan for whatever reason, and so I would watch football with him. and that was during their heyday. Gotcha. I got kind of into that, but I didn't feel a great fan affinity for them. Gotcha. I don't ever blame people for like watching what's on in their household. You know, that's not your fault.

Yeah, I feel some residual bandwagon fan guilt when that happens, because it's tough, because how do I beat the allegations as a Yankees fan who watched them during their dynasty? I came by it honestly because I just happened to, I was a New Yorker at that time. I was a kid. What was this supposed to do? I mean, I guess I could have. been a Mets fan. I could have made things harder on myself, but that just wasn't the way that I went. I was closer to Yankee Stadium and had family, at least extended family who were Yankees fans and

everything else. But yeah, I'm sensitive to the fact that I have not suffered for my love of sports, at least in a fan sort of way. So what can I say? You know, I was I was born into success when it came to the Yankees. So I'm paying my penance for that. All right. As Colombo, says just one more thing here. So I wanted to bring up this little prompt. Sam wrote something recently for pebble hunting about one of his favorite fun facts, which is, well, I'll just say how he put it on Twitter back in 2013, as he says in this story. He did not originate the fun fact. It has taken many forms, but this was how Sam tweeted it over 13 years ago. Vin Scully called MLB Games the same year that Connie Mack managed MLB games.

Mac was born 10 weeks after the Emancipation Proclamation. So the fun of this fact is basically that two guys encompass pretty much all or almost all of professional baseball history, at least. You just kind of lay Mack and Scully end to end and they cover the vast majority of professional baseball. And that's cool. And it's also kind of thrilling to know that Vince. Scully and Connie Mack were both in the majors. They were doing their thing at the same time. They

overlapped for one year. And Connie Mack may have been asleep on the bench for much of that time, but he was at least still technically managing. And he overlapped. And in fact, I believe Vince Gully's first game was a Connie Mack A's game. So that's, it's kind of a cool connection. And so Sam was wondering who will be the third tine or prong? of that fun fact, who will extend it and who eventually will be the guy who overlapped with Scully so that we can say that Mack begat Scully and Scully begets this person, basically. And it's just, you know, so he ran through a number of possibilities. And I wanted to get your thoughts, if any, and I have some thoughts.

It's like, you know how for years there was the fun fact. which was that there was still a living grandson of the 10th U.S. President John Tyler, who died last year, finally, RIP to Harrison Ruffin Tyler, the last living grandson of U.S. President John Tyler, who left the White House in 1845. And it was like the mind boggled because it was, you know, I mean, that happens when someone has a kid really old. And then maybe their offspring, their son has a kid really old. lives a long time and then their son, the son of the sun, lives a really long time and somehow it's just a few generations and, and wow, there's still a direct living link to that person.

So it's that, but for baseball. And so who will carry this forward? Who will pick up the baton and bear the eternal flame next? I really struggled with this. Yeah. But my initial thought is Aaron Judge. Oh, interesting. Okay. And let me just briefly specify. So Sam's criteria here, he just had a few. One must overlap with Vin's career. Yes. And his last game was October 2, 2016. Ideally, he says Vince Gully would have said this person's name out loud, as he would certainly have said Mack's name out loud. In an absolutely perfect world, Vince Gully cared about or was linked with this person, but that's a luxury request, not at all necessary. And finally, this person needs to be a big deal. No.

small deals. Connie Mack is the all-time winningness manager. Vin Scully is the greatest broadcaster of all time. Our standard isn't quite that high, but with all due respect to the great Brent Strum, somebody like Brent Strom wouldn't qualify, not that I was going to suggest Brent Strum. So, yeah, those are the rubrics. So make the case for Aaron Judge. Judge debuted in 2016. Yes. He debuted in August of that year. And crucially, so we'll talk about Judge and his bona fides as a player, but I think that, you know, one thing working in the favor of Judge as the connective tissue is that the Dodgers played the Yankees that year.

And so there is, after his debut, Crucialty, they had a series in New York. They ended the season, or I guess Judge's season ended against, yeah, September 12th and 13th of that year. year. Correct. And so I did not go back to those games to try to see if he was mentioned. I suspect he was that that Scully would have had something to say about him if only because Judge is a California guy. And so there is sort of a, even though he's a Yankee, there's like a potential Dodger connection there just because of the proximity to Cali. And he had to have mentioned him. Obviously, he was playing in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if there was like a little story that was told, right?

It is a fleeting connection, granted, but I think that when we are talking about the most important players in Major League Baseball over the last decade, the judges is very high on that list. Oh, yeah. And not just because he's tall, right? And arguably, after Otani, maybe the guy you would mention, which is kind of wild to think about, just based on, you know, how late he came up and what have you. But, you know, this is a player who has won multiple MVP awards. He was the rookie of the year. His presence looms large and his absence looms large.

You know, the moments when the Yankees have not been able to play him have been fraught for them, right? So I put forth judge as a player because I think you can't, you know, Sam talks about in that newsletter. or why Otani is sort of a very tenuous connection. You know, certainly I think qualifies, at least technically, based on what Sam has laid out. But it doesn't feel like it's quite in the spirit of the thing.

Yeah. Otani didn't make his MLB debut until 2018. He was obviously playing in Japan. He attained greater prominence in the U.S. in 2016. That was kind of his breakout year as a global figure of great interest. Yeah, as Sam notes that that was. That was the first year that you guys talked about him on the podcast. Or at least, yeah, I think we first mentioned him in 2013, but we were like devoting an episode to him at that point.

Yeah, you were locked in on top. But it's still, it's fudging it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So now, I think that there are ways in which judge is sort of fudging it because, you know, it's a very late, he's getting in under the wire. I think that's good, though. That's okay. Yeah.

Probably the ideal candidate would be just getting it under the wire because you want to maximize the longevity. It's like Scully and Mac overlap for one year. So you probably would want it to be that. Otherwise, you're minimizing the span that the three people can encompass. Now, I think that it's optimistic in a way about the longevity of judge as a going concern as a player, which I don't mean to say that like he's going to be done tomorrow or anything like that. But, you know, this is his age 34 season. And he has been injured for much of this year.

And, you know, I think it's very safe to assume that he has fewer MVP awards ahead of him than he has behind him. And that's not to say that he's going to be a bad player. He'll probably still be a great player. He was a very good player this year, even though he was a diminished version of himself and has spent a lot of the season injured. So I don't think we're done with Judge by any means, but I think that his prominence in the game is probably on the back nine, you know. So maybe in that way it's too limiting. You know, I don't know what his ambitions will be after his playing career is done.

It could be that he decides to be a rockcaster. It could be just that he decides to be a monk. It could be that he just like coaches his kids little. league games. I don't know. All these guys you want to stick around in public, I would love to be private and rich. That sounds great. You know, there are people who, if they win the lottery, they're going to post more.

I will post so much less, you know. I'll still do the pod. But as we've established, we are going to have to have a weird conversation about the Patreon once it comes around. Yeah, you can subsidize it. I'm fine with that. Yeah. But I'll be a kept podcaster. I'll be on your payroll. That's all right.

But, yeah, the issue, is. So Judge, obviously, he has the prominence to be the third part, but will he have the staying power? Right. Because he has to have another act, obviously. Even if he had been younger when he came up and he was, what, 24 or something at the time. Right. Even if he had come up at 19 or he'd been Soto or Harper-esque or something and had a little more mileage ahead of him, he would still need the next act because I don't know that a player, a player alone, can't be the third, I don't think. I think you have to have another. Yeah, because even if you're great, even if you have a Tommy John length career,

that's 26 years, that pales in comparison to the 10 years of Mack and Scully. So you have to have a non-athletic role because athletic skills just don't last enough for you to make it. So Judge would have to attain some position of prominence and become beloved and stay at center stage and be a central figure in the game for decades after he retires. And I don't know that there's really any indication that that will happen.

So I think it has to be, it's really, it's tough to project this. I mean, that's why it's kind of a fun thought experiment because there's no way to answer it. You have to be like, who's the best active player who will almost certainly be a manager? Like, that's, I think that the future beloved manager or future beloved broadcaster, those are the avenues that you have that I think offer to you the greatest chances of success. I like that Mac and Scully did different things. And it almost unbalances the symmetry of the fun fact. If you just get another player turn manager or broadcaster, then it's almost like, yeah, you have two of a. kind, I would almost love for there to be a third thing, a third occupation that could

carry this on, but I don't know. Who is the most? But see, like, I'm going to be annoying for a second. Like, all of the current, all of the retired players who are like, I'm going to run for office, they suck. You know, they're like, they're. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Tashara becomes an incredible congressman or something. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So enthusiastic about the Trump agenda. And it's like, okay, well, regardless how you feel about that, and I hope that we are clear about how we feel about that, you're automatically alienating half the population, right? So it doesn't have the same. You need a neutral third thing, right?

Yeah. And it's also not baseball related anymore. Right. Even if you pull a gym bunning and you're in Congress forever and you play in the congressional baseball game, you're still not really a. You're a baseball emeritus figure. You're not really relevant to modern fans. And that's the thing. It's like Mac and Scully, we're really relevant to baseball until the very end.

I have one. I have one. What if Andrew Miller goes on to head the union? Oh, that's an interesting one. Yeah. Okay. What if Andrew Miller, because he's part of the Players Association now, his post-playing career, he works with the union. What if Andrew Miller goes on to head the union?

Yeah, that's not bad. He was playing for a decade before Scully retired. But yeah, maybe he could go on. I mean, he retired fairly young. I don't know if he was a good enough player. He was very, he was very prominent, right? And for a while was, you know, he was part of that really, he was a super important part of that Cleveland team that almost won a World Series. And sort of had his moment.

of, oh, we got to think differently about relievers because I Andrew Miller and look what he can do. He can come in. He can pitch whatever. Yeah. Well, I don't think he has to have been that great a player because Connie Mack wasn't that great a player. That's true. He is known for being a manager for 50 years after he was a player manager. But the fact that he was a player before that, that helps extend his time span.

So it would help with Miller as well. And Miller, he had his moments, obviously. Like he was a pretty prominent player at times and had heroics and everything. This is not Aaron Judge or Shohei Otani, I guess. Yeah. So if he went on to be some sort of Marvin Miller-esque figure. And that would be hard to do, I think, in this day because to be the head of the union now. Right.

So could you be that kind of, he could hang around. He could do the job for a long time. He could be beloved by players. But would fans have any particular attachment? to him, would he be seen as some sort of visionary or just a steady hand at the tiller or whatever? Like, I don't know. Maybe he could somehow transform the players association, but I don't know how he could do that to the extent that he'd be so associated with the union, the way that Mack was with managing or Scully was and is with broadcasting. What if a former player goes on to be the commissioner?

Maybe that's the... Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's the avenue. Not that and like what is, you know, what's the commissioner equivalent to being Marvin Miller, right? Like, Manfred's already done the pitch clock. We have that. You're the commissioner that oversees the implementation of the full Roboson. The only things that I can think of a commissioner doing that would be historically notable, even if evil, I don't want to root for it. It's like, you're the commissioner that broke the union. That's terrible. Yeah, and it's... And commissioners are widely loathed. That's almost part of the job description, which I guess doesn't mean that you couldn't still be the third member of this. If you were like a Gary Bettman kind of figure who just lasted forever to the point where no one could remember anyone being commissioner before you were commissioner, then that would still count even if you were booed every time you showed up at the draft or something. And what's working for you there, and I remember doing an afterball and hang up in lunch.

listen about this is that commissioners rarely lose their jobs these days. I mean, once you get that gig, you're there for decades for the major, the big four, at least these days, unless you, you retire, like, rarely, is there any turnover? So, yeah, once you get in and you'd need to get a player who obviously was very sympathetic to the owner's interests, because that's what the commissioner is. But that's not unheard of. It's not unheard of. And, you know, they, they do. have a number of former players who are populating the commissioner's office, right, who have like special advisory roles in the commissioner's office and are doing things that might make them, at least initially, more sympathetic, right?

Like, if C.C. Sabathia became the commissioner, because I'm just thinking of someone who's been, is involved in the office and has a role in the league office, he would, I imagine, have a longer honeymoon than some alternatives, right? Because everybody loves Cece. Right. He's Hallfamer. So like, I wonder if if the answer is someone like that who ends up having a very senior role within the league office and is viewed favorably. So maybe it's not someone who becomes the commissioner, but someone who oversees, you know, an important improvement to the game. I don't know. Yeah. It is so tough to for. because we're trying to think of, okay, who came around about 10 years ago, who could go on to become a legend?

And if you had asked people in 1896, you know, like a decade after Connie Mack started playing, no one would have known that he was going to go on to be who he was. And even if you had asked people in 1960, would they have said that Finn Scully would have been as big a legend as he became? Probably not. They might have said, oh, he's a good broadcaster and he's young and hopefully he sticks around. But yeah, he's really one of one and singularly beloved. And Sam does consider many candidates. I won't spoil his whole post.

People should subscribe. But he considers Joe Davis, for example, Vince Gulley's successor. And he was super young when he started. So that's good. He could last a long time. But as Sam noted, he does half the Dodgers games now. So he's not maybe as much of a local institution. And can anyone be really?

as Vin was, I mean, in this era of multi-person booths and people maybe not listening on radio as much. And then also guys doing multiple sports, which Vince Gully did too, but maybe Joe Davis doesn't stay baseball only. So I'd like to think that it could be Joe Davis or Jason Binetti for that matter. Right, I was going to say. Yeah. But it's hard to do that these days and for fans to form that same bond with one broadcast. on a national and local level the way that people did with Scully. Tough to repeat those exact circumstances.

And Sam considers some, you know, basically anyone who was active in 2016, especially some of the young Dodgers from back then, or Andrew Friedman, who might go on to be looked at as one of the most successful baseball executives in history. And he was 40 when Scully called it quits, so that hurts. but he could still hang around for quite a long time. So maybe. And he considers Buster Posey, a holfine player who retired young and obviously has gone on to a second act, which has not been super successful so far.

But maybe he will write the ship and go on to be a great baseball executive, who knows. And Sam mentioned Kelsey Whitmore, Women's Baseball Trailblazer, 2016 Sonoma Stompter. So, yeah, it's almost certainly someone, if it's anyone whom you would. wouldn't expect, much as you would not have expected Scully in 1960 or Mac in 1896. But it's still a fun thought experiment. But it might be someone, it would be someone we know now. That's what makes it so tantalizing because it can't be someone who's just totally unknown now. I don't think.

They have to be somewhat prominent, but could also be someone you'd never suspect. Oh, yeah. And yeah, he considers Otani. Even if you count Otani, we have no idea what Otani. will do after he is done playing and he might do nothing baseball associated or he just yeah so as much of a legend as he is who knows whether he will have that sort of staying power so you know maybe it's effectively wild maybe if effectively wild we started we overlapped with scully we started in 2012 you know we keep crank it out three episodes a week for the next 60 years or so and and maybe yeah

will be the last link to Scully's era. I'm kidding. However, I do think there's something, so my suggestion about this, I went a little bit off the board. So Sam was mostly considering human beings and people in keeping with Mack and Scully. He did suggest,

maybe much to your dismay, the Savannah Bananas, because that team was founded in 2016, and it was a very different kind of bananas team. It was a summer collegiate team at the time. This was before, Banana Ball really started. Post disaffiliation pre- Banana Ball.

Yeah, and Scully probably wouldn't have heard of them or mentioned them or anything. But they did technically overlap. And if Banana Ball does go on to be incredibly popular or like the new dominant variant of the sport or something, then I guess that could potentially apply. And Sam considers everyone up to it, including Charlie Kershaw, Clayton Kershaw's son. So, you know, he cast a wide net here. My suggestion, though, I think it is not a person, a human being at all. I think it's Statcast. Oh.

I think Statcast will be because Stackass has a lot going for it here. It launched publicly in 2015, so it did overlap with Scully, and obviously he was aware of it, and I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned it in some way. And 2016 was when they ironed out some of the kinks, and that was when MLB acquired baseball savant, and they debuted barrels and everything. So that almost felt like the year when it matured. So the timing works. And I think that you can't count on any person being prominent that far into the future. Right.

But we can say with a high degree of confidence that as long as there is Major League Baseball, there's going to be. some sort of statcast-esque tracking tech, right? Unless we get some Luddite revolution and we cast out the machines and we smash all the computers and cameras or something, probably as long as there is an MLB, there will be some sort of tracking tech that is statcast or its equivalent. And maybe the brand is so established now, the moniker statcast is so associated with the tracking tech

that they'll just keep that name. and the system will continue to evolve as it has, right? Like they incorporated Hawkeye and they continued to call it statcast. And so maybe whatever the next, you know, if they're tracking players' pulses or cortisol levels or reading their minds to expose their innermost fears and deepest desires, like, that'll still be called statcast, right? Or if not, people might still at least remember that there was such a system as statcast

and that it proceeded whatever the state-of-the-art successor is. So that's good. I think we can say that it would have some sort of staying power. And I hesitated to suggest this because you're going person to person to stat system. Right. So that sort of screws up the symmetry of the fun fact too. It doesn't feel very VIN. I'll say that.

That's true. And yeah, it does cement the perception that, oh, baseball is just nothing but nerd numbers now. And we're losing the human element and what a sad commentary on the game it is that the new Vinculli. would be statcasts, right? Right. Now, by 2070 or whatever, maybe nobody will be bothered by that, and maybe society will have evolved

or devolved to the extent that you won't even draw that distinction or nobody will be lamenting how statistically oriented or technologically oriented baseball is anymore. But I think it's evocative to link the guy who goes back to the Emancipation Proclamation

and statcasts, I think that's what that has going for it because when you can say, it's two steps removed. We can go from Connie Mac, old-timey Connie Mac via Vin Scully to this network of cameras and computers that would have made Mac soil his suit

because he was so odd by this data being available. I think there's something to be said for that. So, you know, fast forward several decades and you can connect Mac and Stackast, I think that actually kind of works. I'm open to that as a rationale. I'm open to it.

I still am inclined to go in a more human direction, at least initially, because VIN was just so human. Yes. But I think you're right that when you're sort of linking the eras, there is something pretty remarkable about thinking about someone who, to span that. sort of length of progression, although, you know, going from emancipation to Stadcast, you sort of ending on a whimper in terms of relative importance. But, you know, there is something compelling about that and the reminder that this is an institution that has seen a great deal of advancement, some more important than others, but still meaningful and appreciable, right?

So, yeah. Well, Sam did weigh in on this because I left a comment on his post after you. reading it as I sometimes do. And his verdict on my suggestion of Stackcast and I laid out my rationale, Sam wrote absolutely the best answer. Ah, well, there you go. Now, he didn't hear the Aaron Judge suggestion. So it's possible that, I mean, he may have considered Aaron Judge.

I don't know. I mean. But I swayed Sam, at least. I won Sam over and he added person to person to stat might not be an issue in 40 years if all our technology has been anthropomorphized. Yeah, there you go. Maybe kind of a dismaying idea, I guess. But if we get the non-dispopian outcome of that where, you know, we interact with computers in a sort of Star Trek computer way, you know.

Right. Yeah. And a less, you know, everything is ruined way and AI psychosis way, then it's true. You might not draw as much of a distinction or you might not think of computers as kind of cold calculating. entities or something. I don't know that that's good, but yeah, there might be less of a distinction drawn there. Hopefully, people will still recognize the difference between flesh and blood, unless, you know, we're into Cylon, cyborg, human replica, robots territory at that point. But that's a whole other can of words. Maybe they'll all know how to dance, though.

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slash group slash effectively wild. You can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at our slash Effectively Wild. And you can check the show notes in the podcast posted fan graphs or Patreon or the episode description in your podcast app for links to the stories and stats we cited today. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and production assistance. We will be back with one more episode before the end of the week. Talk to you soon. Does baseball look the same to you as it does to me? When we look at baseball, How much do we see?

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