Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2524: Take This Cup From Me

Episode Date: August 28, 2026

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, please visit our Patreon. Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about a baseball reference in summer sci-fi flick The End of Oak Street and new reporting on players’ unwillingness to wear cups, then (32:30) discuss career years for Pete Alonso and Gabriel Moreno, Mason Miller’s changeup, Cal Raleigh’s swing change, and whether MLB will follow other leagues’ leads in establishing a tournament or trophy apart from the playoffs, before Stat Blasting (1:17:47) about the worst/least-experienced lineups ever, the most prolifically .500 teams, and the hierarchy of double-play frequency. Audio intro: Kite Person, “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio outro: Ian Phillips, “Effectively Wild Theme” Link to The End of Oak Street wiki Link to David Robert Mitchell wiki Link to Detroit references in movie Link to Parrish 1982 gamelog Link to Doctor Strange Tigers reference Link to protective cups article Link to Luke 22:42-44 Link to Chisholm article Link to Forbes article on JKG Link to Time article on JKG Link to best hitters in August Link to on-pace leaderboard Link to pitch run values since 2025 Link to Miller’s changeup count Link to Cruz homer clip Link to Miller article 1 Link to Miller article 2 Link to game theory meme Link to Cal swing article Link to Neil on alternate champions Link to Neil on the NBA Cup Link to Knicks NBA Cup decision Link to regular-season-champion article Link to regular-season-champion episode Link to Yankees’ six-run win Link to Stat Blast wiki Link to Giants loss article 1 Link to Giants loss article 2 Link to Giants unfun fact Link to Sam post 1 Link to Sam post 2 Link to 2022 White Sox .500 records Link to Rochester Hop Bitters info Link to Preston’s FB post Link to “9 to 5” video Link to double-play data Link to Hembekides clip Link to Hembekides graph Link to Molina 3-2-8 double play Link to Nootbaar play  Sponsor Us on Patreon  Give a Gift Subscription  Email Us: [e-mail]  Effectively Wild Subreddit  Effectively Wild Wiki  Apple Podcasts Feed   Spotify Feed  YouTube Playlist  Facebook Group  Bluesky Account  Twitter Account  Get Our Merch! var SERVER_DATA = Object.assign(SERVER_DATA || {}); Source

Hello, take me to the diamond, lead me through the turnstile, shower me with data that I never thought to comply. Now we're freely not a scorecard with a cracker jack for the smile. Hello and welcome to episode 25, 24 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraph's Baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Raleigh of Fangraphs, and I'm joined by Ben Lindbergh of the ringer, Ben. How are you? I'm doing well,

because shortly after we recorded the previous episode, I saw a baseball movie. Oh. Not a true baseball movie that the world would define as a baseball movie, but by the effectively wild tongue-in-cheek definition. Okay. I went to see with Jesse the end of Oak Street, which, yeah, it was fun.

It was a fun movie. It's been warmly received. It was one received by us. This is the Anne Hathaway, Ewan McGregor movie that features them fighting dinosaurs and various prehistoric creatures and trying to survive as a family. And it is, in fact, a baseball movie because it has a couple of baseball references. And I won't spoil anything. There's not that much to spoil, really. You kind of understand the premise and the hook here.

Yeah. the actual reasons for their being pitted against dinosaurs don't particularly matter, but I won't give away any specifics just in case. But there were a couple subtle baseball references, which I might have missed, if not for the fact that for some reason, the screening we went to had closed captioning. And I don't know why. I don't think it was some sort of special accessible screening,

so I'm not sure if it was a mistake or something. and not just subtitles, but actually close captioning just, you know, music plays and it says upbeat pop music plays, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. And initially we were a bit dismayed by that because it seems sort of distracting, but eventually you tune it out. And also, I ended up being glad because some background baseball references that I might have missed, if not for the closed captioning, came to my attention.

So pretty early in the movie, there's this neighborhood cookout, bar, bar, It's idyllic and kids are running around. And the radio is blaring. And you hear, and it's kind of hard to hear, but again, it was a closed caption for me. You hear a little bit of commentary by a radio news announcer, I guess, who's relaying results of a baseball game and says, star player Lance Parrish had two hits despite the Tigers losing to the Rangers. And I think there may have been a later baseball loser. on a background broadcast as well.

But this one had some specifics. And of course, as soon as I clocked that, I was thinking, all right, got to remember this so I can fact check it. That was more distracting than the close captioning was me remembering. All right, Lance Parrish, two hits, Tigers Lost to the Rangers. I got to look up this scenario and see if it makes sense. And the movie is a period piece. It's set in 1982.

And at one point in the movie, they actually specify the day that the incident happens, the thing that transports them to the prehistoric setting. And yeah, they say that it's July 11th, 1982, which gives us even greater specificity. So I looked this up and on July 11th, 1982 itself, that wouldn't quite fit because the tigers were playing the Rangers, but they won that day. So that doesn't quite work, even though Lance Parrish did have two hits on that day. However, this cookout barbecue scene takes place at least a day before the incident. So it could have been July 10th when the Rangers did beat the Tigers.

Actually, there was a double header on that day, and they split the double header. And so it could have been that except Lance Parrish had an offer in. one of the games and then I think didn't play in the second one or he did but he had one hit in that game and oh no larry parish played for the rangers against the tigers that day but lance parish did not play that day so fascinating yeah so that is it but that didn't that didn't that didn't fit if it was july 10th however july 9th we have a winner because july 9th the tigers and Rangers played a double-heder that day. So they played back-to-back days with double-headers.

So just so many more double-headers in those days. And on July 9th, the Tigers dropped both games to the Rangers, one via walkoff. And Lance Parrish, who I guess was on a bit of a heater right then, he had two hits in both games. So it could have been either of those, and it was a double-heder, and presumably one was a day game. so it would make sense that in this daytime scene, they were relaying the results of the first game. So it may very well have been that one, the July 9th first game of the doubleheader

when the Tigers lost to the Rangers three to two, and it was a walk-off, and Lynch did in fact have two hits. So I'd have to watch the movie again more closely to see how much time elapses because based on my initial viewing, I would have said that that cookout happened the day before the incident. which was July 11th, in which case we would be off by a day here.

And I'd have to take the film to task. But I don't know, maybe another day elapsed there, or I wasn't paying close attention, or they fudged it slightly. But at worst, it's one day off from being pretty accurate. So I appreciate that. It more or less checks out. Yeah, fascinating. And Lance Parrish, I think you could say qualified as a star, star player.

He's referred to. He's a five war player. that year. He was an all-star, Silver Slugger, for the second time each of those achievements. He got some MVP votes for the first time that year. So, yeah, it was a good catching season. And I think he's kind of a holl of very good guy. But yeah, he qualifies. The dinosaurs, do they, I don't want to know. People like it. Yeah. Man, and Hathaway. What a summer you're having. I know. Yeah, it is the summer of Hathaway. It's true. But also that was the summer. of Parrish. And it makes sense because the movie was written and directed by David Robert Mitchell,

who is from Michigan and went to school in Detroit and has set other movies in that area. He did It Follows and Under the Silver Lake. And this movie, you can't really tell exactly where it's said it could be almost anywhere in the suburbs, but it is Detroit suburbs, ostensibly. And so there are some other Detroit references. And this is one of them. So I don't know David Robert Mitchell's baseball background, but he's 51. He was born in 74. So he is of the right age to have imprinted on the 1982 Tigers and Lance Parrish.

So probably not a coincidence that that reference was in there. So I appreciated the Uittal mention. It reminded me of in Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness. Sure, yeah. There's also a little stray background Tigers reference to because it's the multiverse, of course, and Sam Remy is a Tigers fan from the area as well. And you get a little reference to in another universe, the 2003 Tigers are the best baseball team, whereas in reality, they were one of the worst teams of all times.

So I appreciated that as well. So Tigers, getting a little love from Hollywood. It's nice. Yeah. How about that? Hmm. Go see the movie. It's fun.

And also, it just so happens to be a baseball movie, even though most people might miss that. Okay. I have some inside info from someone who saw an upcoming movie that there's about to be another baseball movie racing our screens as well. And not legitimate baseball movies of the kind that we talked about recently that I believe that the real Hollywood blockbuster or at least wide release movie, baseball movie, is back. But I'm just talking about little references that you might easily miss. But evidently, according to someone who saw it at a festival earlier this year, there is a movie by Joe Swanberg with Dakota Fanning and Jake Johnson, baseball guy,

who that also has a bit of a baseball reference. The Sun Never Sets, which is a... coming out in limited release this weekend, actually, Friday, and then a wide release next weekend. So I'm looking forward to seeing that, or at least getting the exact quote. But evidently there's a reference to how many ways one can reach base in baseball. So we'll have to fact check and stat blast that when the movie comes out,

and I can see it for myself. But thanks to Greg for writing in about that months ago and tipping us off to a forthcoming baseball reference in a movie. All right. Other follow-ups and favorites of ours. So I have a bunch of banter for us and then some solid, exciting stat blasting to get to later in the episode. But here's a topic that we talked about not long ago that has come to the fore again. Protective cups and whether to wear one. And what appears to be a generational shift in players' willingness to wear one.

So as you will recall, there was the jazz chisholm. incident a few months ago where he got hit in the beans and he said, I don't wear cups. I'm not going to start wearing cups. He said that was just an unlucky instance. I've never had a reason to wear one. Now I have a reason to wear one, but that doesn't mean I'm going to wear one, which is very funny way to phrase it. But as you recall, I actually, I stood up for him and you did.

And you questioned that because he felt. He fouled a ball off the beans, and I was saying, look, if it's sort of like a black swan event, it's so rare that as painful as it is, the pain typically tends to wear off without lasting damage. And as bad as it is, if you really find it uncomfortable to wear the cup, then should you actually let that one extremely isolated event sway you because you're accumulating so much discomfort in small doses? if you wear a cup every game. And you questioned that reasoning. But I had jazz's back. But here we have another example, Ernie Clement, of the Blue Jays. Same deal.

Fowled a ball off the beans. Uh-huh. Was writhing in the batters box for a while. And did he learn his lesson? Nope. He said, I've just never worn one. I'm not going to change now. Yeah.

And there's a generational. shift here, which is clear because Aaron Boone questioned jazz chishism and said that in his day and Boone's day, players all wear one, and Boone would always wear one, and he'll wear one anytime he's on the field for batting

practice or whatever it is. Even in practice he would wear one. And similarly here, Blue Jays skipper John Schneider said that he would have a conversation with Clement and he joked he'd tell him to wear a cup tomorrow. And Clement said he's always found them uncomfortable.

He didn't wear them in Little League, didn't wear them in hockey in high school. And he's an infielder, so hard hit balls, you know, double entendre there. But potential for hard hit balls of all kinds in the infield. And Clement said, I always feel like if I miss a ground ball, it's my fault. And I deserve to get hit in the nuts, which is almost like a self-flagellation sort of like wearing a hair shirt sort of. this is my penance, you know, if I misplay a ball, then I deserve to have my own balls impacted by that, which is interesting. I don't know that I would share that view exactly. But this piece by David Singh for Sportsnet, he sort of surveyed other teammates and found a lot of agreement. Miles Strah agrees

with Clement and Chisholm Jr. He stopped wearing a cup when he was eight years old. It's a comfort thing, according to Straw, players simply don't like the feel of a hard plastic or carbon fiber object between their legs when they're moving around. Strah believes no outfielder should wear a cup, which I guess is more defensible except that outfielders have to hit too. They still hit. They still hit and get hit. And Strah proclaims they're irrelevant for MLB infielders as well. He says, as a kid, you were told to wear it. I was.

I did when I played. And I guess you listened to your mom, dad, or coach at that point. but once you start to become a little bit more of a developed player, you trust your hands, your instincts, and now especially on a major league field, you don't see really bad hops. That's kind of where it gets scary, like you can get a bad hop on a high school field,

but here they rake the field every three innings. Schneider says he doesn't understand why this generation of players has chosen to issue cups. He estimates less than 10% of big leaguers wear them. That's my guess. I'm not cup checking everyone. You know what I'm. I mean.

A vast difference from his playing days in the early 2000s when seemingly every player was strapped. Evidently, that's the terminology, regardless of position. And Schneier said, guys now are more comfortable not wearing it and they say they trust their hands, but he makes sure his sons wear cups in their youth games. Balls take weird hops off the bat and off the dirt and potentially off your balls. So I'm a big believer in a protective cup. And fortunately, I had to wear one in my position, but it's kind of weird.

how guys don't. And you agree. I appreciate that from a fielding perspective, there are positions that are more vulnerable to injury than others. But as you noted, all of these guys bat. And here's a headline, Ben, here's a headline from this year. What is a ruptured testicle suffered by age Joshua Corota Grower? Okay. I appreciate that these are not frequent occurrences, right? Thankfully for all of these guys. And I understand that it is uncomfortable, right?

I get that. I get it. I mean, I don't. I think that you're all being a bunch of babies. Try having an IUD inserted and then complain to me about being uncomfortable. Okay? Okay. But I understand.

You're trying to engage in athletic endeavors. and it's it's rubbing, it's chafing, it feels funny, you're like aware of it. You know how sometimes when you're sick, you become conscious of a part of your body that like kind of fades into the background of your sensory experience when you're at full strength and you're like, oh boy, my throat. And you don't notice your throat. I mean, now you're maybe noticing your throat because I brought it up. But when you're healthy and not afflicted by whatever that.

hell I had last October, you're not aware of your throat. It's just there, you know, and you're, talking and drinking and eating and existing in the world. And it's like, yeah, it's in there. I'm confident I have one, but I'm not thinking about it. And then you're sick and you're very aware of it. And I would imagine that if you're wearing a cup, you are aware of your downstairs in a way that you wouldn't be just walking around. But Joshua Corota Grower had a ruptured testicle. And I will say the following. He wasn't wearing a cup, I think, which is part of the problem here.

And, you know, they're imperfect as a piece of protective equipment. I think you can still injure yourself even when you're wearing a cup. But he had to have emergency surgery because he ruptured his, his, his testicle. Now, he kept playing in that game, which is bananas, but he had a ruptured testicle. This isn't a Forbes.com article, so this is like, you know, a reputable outlet. A ruptured testicle, this is one of the subheadings in this in this piece. A ruptured testicle is typically very, very, very, very painful. They put four varies in there. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just. saying like, I think that we, we as a species, and this is not a problem that is specific to men, although, but it's not a problem that's specific to men. I think that we tend to have a hard time properly contextualizing engaging risk, you know, and particularly when we are confronted with

minor but noticeable inconvenience or discomfort, right? This is why you get a lot of people, who are just still resistant to wearing helmets when they're cycling. Right? It's like, oh, I can't turn my head the same way. Eh, I look like a dork, whatever. Like, and there are times when our risk taking, even if we are not properly gauging, the potential likelihood, the probability of a negative outcome related to that risk taking, it's still minor, all things considered.

But the potential downside risk of refusing to wear a cup is a right. is a ruptured testicle. Yes, which can be repaired. It can be unruptured. And, hey, you have a spare. I do love, I do love, how do you prevent a ruptured testicle? Another subheading of this, which doesn't have a question mark. So I don't understand Forbes's style guide.

The best way to prevent a rupture testicle is not to get hit the testicles. Yeah, that's a endeavor to follow that advice. Wearing a cup can help protect your testicles. And naturally, you should never lead with your testicles when doing anything. wrote this piece. It's hard not to, really. I mean, anatomically speaking. This was written by a doctor. Oh, well. Bruce Y. Lee, senior contributor, MD, MBA. Uh-oh. I'm suspicious to you now. Yeah. I don't know. Any doctor who's doing Forbes' content mill content. I don't know. But I still, I still think that Dr. Lee is correct that you, one, don't want to lead with your testicles. Two,

should try to prevent what does that mean exactly totally like what have no idea are we talking about tucking them in or walking backward how do you not

just don't be crotch out when you're when you're batting you know don't be like thrusting at all times you know and and you're just like testicles out you know I think it is on it is assumed that one

would wear pants but like look Joshua Corrida Grower was having like a nice start to his rookie campaign. And, you know, he's, this derailed him. He's still on the injured list. He's only now, only now, within the last like 10 days, resumed taking part in light non-impact activities. Light, he was put on the aisle in July, you know?

So I'm just, I know that you know that these men. are being, you're being, here's what I'll say, you're all being a little fussy, okay? And I appreciate that you're uncomfy and it's not fun to be uncomfy and you want to run really fast and you don't want to feel the chafe and I appreciate all those things. I'm not denying that it is a suboptimal experience for all of you and your beans. As an aside, it's hilarious that we allow to, well, not we, that you all allowed beans to become slang fur balls because, It implies, like, that's a, that's like a scubel scope level of size, you know?

Beans, tiny. You can scoble scope those guys out. Some of you were very strange about your beans. So I'm just surprised that you all were like, yeah, beans, you know. This is one of our euphemisms. Yeah, I'm following Grant Prisbee's lead with that largely. But, yeah. And there is the counter to this prevailing seemingly,

attitude toward cavalier cup usage or the lack thereof. The active player who speaks up in defense of cups is Brandon Valenzuela in this piece. Who's a catcher? So that tracks. He says, I have to protect the nuggets. So that's what he uses, maybe going for something a little larger than beans. The nuggets? The nuggets.

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. that's a different thing. However, he says that growing up, he wasn't allowed to play without one. And so he was taught to associate the cup with his uniform, making it feel as though the equipment was just another piece of clothing. And he does opt to cup up when playing first base,

or even if he's de-hing, he does. Or even when he's taking batting practice, and he says, I feel naked without it. But he does appear to be very much in the minority. And Miles Straw had his own. painful testicle incident in the piece details during his first year of pro ball, so to speak. He laced a pitch down the right field line and hustled into second base. As he dove toward the bag, the relay throw landed underneath straw and he rolled on the ball,

Sands Cup, of course, and rolled on multiple balls again. He remembers being unable to breathe for about 10 minutes. Well, that sounds fatal. So that must be a slight exaggeration, I think, but felt like throwing up. Did that lead him to reconsider? It's just not worth it, replies Stra. That's the only incident I've had in 12 years of baseball and pro ball. It's just the comfort.

The pain eventually subsides after running its course. Straw knows that. And so following Tuesday's contests, when enough time had passed from Clement's incident, Strah decided to check on his teammate. I just said, how you feeling, kid? Says Straw. And he's like, oh, wow, it's shaped kind of weird. What?

So I was like, all right, yeah, go see. see the trainers. And that's where the article ends. The it there, I assume, is referring to a testicle. Oh, wow. It's shaped kind of weird, which then led me to a Time magazine piece about Josh Corota Crowher and his incident. And the subhead here is, how do you know if you've ruptured a testicle? I mean, I feel like you'd have a pretty decent idea. But this piece does, again, cite a medical expert who is brought in here to tell us about the severity of this injury. And the expert source in this piece is Ashley Winter, a urologist in Los Angeles who has performed emergency surgery for testicular rupture

parentheses, but did not treat Corotagrower. That's an important distinction. Yeah, you always have to say that, I guess. Well, yeah, because it would be strange, yeah, to get those specifics from the dark. Yes. So how do you know if you've ruptured one, according to Winter. Content warning here for a moment. There will be a uncomfortable testicular language, so you may want to skip ahead a few seconds if you're affected by that. It's not that you see it, it's that you feel it. Winter says, a healthy testicle is firm and rounded. After a complete rupture, it feels like mush, she says. It's lost its rigidity. This isn't the kind of injury to monitor at home. it's not like a minor thing.

Does wearing a cup prevent it? This piece says we don't know for sure whether JKG was wearing one. I assume he wasn't. I don't actually see any quotes from him about whether he was and if he wasn't, whether he will be from now on. But Winter says a neurosurgeon would tell people to wear helmets. As a urologist, obviously I would tell people to wear a cup. Wow.

And she said, because of the high-profile nature of this injury, She wonders if it'll change players' minds. Right. I'd be really interested to know what the actual rate of cup usage is. And after this, if it doesn't go up a lot, doesn't sound like it. Doesn't sound like the Blue Jays have learned from Joshua's lesson here. So, yeah, if he was referring to misshapenness in this case, then hopefully he did get that checked out by a professional. Well, and, you know, Corota Grower is the most, like, recent example of this.

but it's not like baseball history lacks for, you know, for guys getting their nuggets mangled. Rupures, torsions, yeah. I guess it's just like, look, people are going to make the choices they're going to make. And it's a less extreme bit of risk-taking than, like, I don't know, refusing to wear a batting helmet. But they wouldn't let you do that. Right. They wouldn't let you bat without a batting helmet, right? So, you know, and I'm not necessarily advocating for something, be, maybe.

made mandatory here and to Schneider's point, like, what are you going to, you can do a little nuttap every time your boys come out, you know, you're going to align them up and be like, right, just when the umpire is grabbing your hand to see if there's sticky stuff, just, you know, a little reach around just to ensure safety. Why? Wow. And you just like, you took it to a very, see, in that instance, you are leading with your crotch. So you don't have to reach around.

That's true. You're presenting yourself. Just reach down. Just cup the cup. Yeah. But again, that only accounts for a couple of guys on the roster. You know, you need to, you got to get your position players sorted out clearly. But, you know, I wonder if it's just a very intimate thing to know about someone, even within the realm of baseball injuries.

You know, and we have a great deal of transparency into baseball players' injuries, even relative to other sports. And yet, you know, when your UCL gets got, it doesn't affect your ability potentially to, like, have children later, right? It's not, it's just, it's such an intimate injury. And I know this about him. Like, I don't know when I will have opportunity to talk to Joshua Corota Growery's cool story and, again, was having a really good, like, first little bit of time as a rookie. But I will know this about him. I'll know. I'll know it about him. I know this about Mitch Hanager, you know? That's weird. I don't get a Christmas card for Mitch Hanigar, but I know about what, like, great detail about what happened to his nuggets, you know?

That's weird. That's a strange thing. And so, but the fact that there is this level of indifference suggests that either these dudes are like really, have a very different risk tolerance than I do, or just imagine themselves to have an invincibility that is foreign to me also. But, you know, so much of men's understandings of themselves is related to questions of their downstairs. Yes, we do tend to lead with the testicles or that area, at least figuratively speaking. Yeah, and so it's, it is surprising to me that there

wouldn't be a greater sense of care. Because here's the other piece of it. Sorry, to be crude. It's not just your nuggets that are down there. You can take a ball off the dick. And I would think that that possibility, more even than the nuggets would, I prefer nuggets to beans.

Beans is just like, it feels like it should be describing the testicles of a different species of animal, just on average, you know? So I would think that the possibility of getting hit flush in the dick would be the thing that would inspire them to. That would be bad. That would be bad, you know. And you do, you only have the one, you know.

At least with nuggets, you do have some redundancy. Yes. Yes. So I wonder if any of this is. And they're right that the fields are very well tailored. And I'm sure there are fewer bad hops than there used to be. Yeah. But there are still some.

or maybe a ball just carams off the lip of the grass or whatever it is. There are still some strange unpredictable hops. So I wonder if any part of this is kind of a showboating, macho, not even just, hey, I have a high pain tolerance, I'll survive. But also, like, they're all talking about how if you're good enough, you don't need it, right? And so I wonder if part of it is pride, just like, I have such sure hands. I'm such a good fielder that I don't need one. Now, even if you're a good fielder, there's nothing you can really do to get out of the way of a fouled off ball in the batters box.

No one has reaction times that quick. But at least in the field, I guess I get it. If you prize your own fielding and think, oh, yeah, I always get a glove on it. Why do I need a cup? But that is maybe false bravado or ill-advised bravado. So, yeah, there's part of me that says, hey, if it's a once-in-a-career kind of event, and in most cases, it doesn't do lasting damage.

And probably in the instances when it does, I would imagine that in those cases, probably the player, if they were not wearing a cup prior to that, maybe they think better of that after that. But if you get away with it and you say, hey, I've been playing most of my life, and this has never happened before, and I'll probably get away with it for the rest of my career,

and I won't have to have my performance potentially impaired by restricting my mobility or just some slight amount of discomfort that is kind of constant, then I do sort of understand it. But also, I think I would wear a cup because just the peace of mind of just not needing to worry about this happening, even if it's a low probability event, it would be worth it for me. I'm just saying. And I think, you know, it is foolish. and I also will remind all of the ladies listening

that they will knock you out for an IUD insertion now if you want. They wear cups in softball too, so you don't necessarily have to have testicles to end in the WPBL, I imagine. I mean, it's that area is sensitive regardless of gender. Taking a softball or a baseball to the couter wouldn't feel good either. That would feel bad. We should have put this part of the podcast behind the paywall. You have to pay for Effectively Wild after dark.

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