Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 583: What the Braves, Red Sox, and Dodgers are Doing

Episode Date: December 5, 2014

Ben and Sam banter about rumors and Ryan Webb’s wedding, then discuss the pre-Winter Meetings trajectories of the Braves, Red Sox, and Dodgers.

You're the other half of what I am, you're the mess in peace And I love you more than ever with that love that doesn't cease You turn the tide on me each day and teach my eyes to see Just being next to you is a natural thing for me Good morning and welcome to episode 583 of Effectively Wild, the daily podcast from Baseball Prospectus presented by the Play Index at BaseballReference.com. I am Ben Lindberg of Grantland joined by Sam Miller of Baseball Prospectus. Here I am.

Good. As expected. As agreed upon. Happy to have you. Thanks. It's good to be here I love your show Thanks So we shortchanged Ryan Webb on Wednesday's episode I gave a Matt Albers update And I said something about there being no Ryan Webb news Which was true as far as we knew at the moment I said it But hours later, before we actually put up the episode,

Ryan Webb tweeted from one of the four accounts followed by at EW pod, the official Twitter account of Effectively Wild, that he's getting married tomorrow. So congratulations to Ryan Webb. He tweeted he was getting married tomorrow. Tomorrow, as in Saturday. Tomorrow, if you're listening to this Friday. December 6th, if you happen to be in the Baltimore area and can find Ryan Webb's wedding.

Did you look at his... A listener emailed us a link to Ryan Webb's registry, which is maybe a little creepy, but I can't say that we haven't encouraged that kind of behavior. I did take a look at it. I was completely ready to get him something. By the time I got there, though, every single thing had been bought. Yeah, me too.

We could have gotten him an Effectively Wild podcast gift, but everything. It's your typical Macy's crate and barrel assortment of household items. You're married. You've been married. Did you have a registry with useless items on it? Is that the only type of item that you can put on a registry? Well, we didn't. There's a butter tray on this registry.

I mean, if you need the butter tray, why, if you're Ryan Webb, a major league pitcher, don't you get the butter tray before you get married? You don't really need the butter tray. You're just forcing people to buy something. Well, I think there's a couple of things at play. One is that a present is, my philosophy on presents is that they should be things that the person wants but would never get for themselves. And so, I mean, otherwise, we could just all give each other cash. If we just want to give each other, you know, if we just want to swap property, we could make it very simple. Ideally, it's something that the person doesn't know they want, right?

That's the best kind of gift. person doesn't know they want, right? That's the best kind of gift. Ideally it is, but if you're making a list, then, but I mean, it's, that's a, that's a very risky and inefficient thing because then you end up getting, I mean, a lot of people are not qualified to tell me what I want that I didn't know I want, you know? Sure. So you make a list, which is a way of helping people get you something that you will like. And so you have to think about things that you want but are not so prosaic that they're no fun to buy or that you would just buy them yourselves. For instance, I assume he and his wife

will go through many packs of dish sponges. So he could have asked for dish sponges knowing that they would get used. But people are kind of okay buying their own dish sponges, knowing that they would get used. But people are kind of okay buying their own dish sponges in a way that they're not really necessarily okay buying their own butter trays. I think the other thing is, I don't know this about Ryan Webb, but my guess is that Ryan Webb and his bride already have a lot of things. They already probably have grown up kitchens in their lives. My wife and I did not when we were married. I was still basically just living in friends'

rooms, like I was renting rooms. You were going to say in filth. No. It's like we didn't have even a lot of the basics. For us, it's really your chance to build a kitchen together, to build all the things that you need to entertain. We asked for a combination of things that we would need and that were better than we would get, like our nice China coffee cups, that sort of thing, as well as basic stuff like glass and dish sets, as well as things like a wok. We got our wok from that. So I would say that none of our stuff was particularly pointless. We didn't

ask for a cheese board with knife and spreader, for instance. We didn't ask for a cheese board with knife and spreader, for instance. We didn't ask for highball glasses. Are you subtweeting Ryan Webb and the soon-to-be Mrs. Webb with those items? There's some things, though. There's a nice steak knife set as well. I was surprised by how non-fancy they were. They seemed like simple folks. Mikasa Kotor Platinum Butter Tray.

You want to guess how much that costs unless you're looking at it already? I'm not looking at it, but say it again. Say Mikasa Kotor Platinum Butter Tray. Platinum? Well, I don't think it's actually platinum. I would guess it's $65 4899 did you have something in mind if you had gotten him something I don't know that I would pay $50 for a butter tray if it were actually made of platinum would I have

gotten him something yeah I definitely would have gotten him something. There's no doubt in my mind. I might have gotten him a frame printout of the play index with him at the top in the game's finished lead. Oh, see, I was going to get him the Chili Witch Tuxedo Stripe placemat. I see. I was going to maybe take some of that play index cash we have lying around and get him a placemat, a placemat at $19.99. But every single thing was already bought. Too bad. Well, congratulations to Ryan Webb and his lovely bride.

The resident wits in the Facebook group made some jokes about closing and saving marriages and so forth. But I won't repeat any of those jokes. We wish him only the best. So some rumor submissions. I'm not going to say that they are necessarily non-provelatory rumors. Yes, yes, yes. The butter tray is 65. It's currently discounted, but it's 65. 65 what did i say i think that's what you said

wow your sense of the butter tray pricing is unerring yeah okay so we got a few submissions that i just i i will declare ineligible. I don't believe them to be rumors at all, let alone non-revelatory rumors. So the number one submission that we received, we got this from several listeners, is a John Marossi tweet from today. He says, Rockies have outfield bats.

Orioles need outfield bats. But for now, at least, there is no substantive trade talk between them. This is not a rumor? You're saying it doesn't qualify because it doesn't purport to be a rumor, but rather just talking out loud about things that could. To me though, the phrasing is rumor-like enough. It is. It is true that there is not a rumor contained,

but the tweet has the tone of a rumor. And I think that having to actually not have a rumor in your rumor might be the strongest contender yet. I mean, all the others have at least had a rumor. This is not just a light meal. This is an empty plate. It's beautiful. I disagree.

I think if you're a rumor monger, you get into that way of phrasing things, and maybe it sort of sounds like a rumor, but it's not a rumor. It's just a bit of idle speculation about one team that has something and one team that doesn't but he is he did he reported that there is no substantive trade talk between them that is his rumor he he reported that two two teams that he picked out he called them to see if they were talking trade. Can you imagine that call?

Like you call up Duquette and say, just wondering if anything is cooking between you and the Rockies. Yeah. I guess the fact that he is technically reporting something, even if it's the absence of something. I also like at least. There's an at least in there. But for now, there's no substantive trade talk between them.

Try again tomorrow, John. Yeah. I got to. That is a good. You are way underselling this one. This might be the best one we've had. selling this one. This might be the best one we've had. We got a similar submission or I did about a Joel Sherman article where he sort of did the same thing with Daniel Murphy. He called up three teams that he thought would be or should be in the Daniel Murphy market and they weren't in

the Daniel Murphy market. And then he wrote a whole article about why there's no movement in the Daniel Murphy market now that I mean that's interesting to me is yeah is it's it's possibly worthwhile to point out why someone isn't of interest right yeah I mean what Murphy was like their second best player too yeah so I think I'm okay with that one there were a couple other philosophically are we okay with ones where there's a player who is supposed to sign sometime soon he's an intriguing player everyone wants to know when he's signing and with whom he's signing and there are regular updates from people who say that there's no update. There's been a lot of this with Jon Lester this week. Just people tweeting, no decision yet. Pete Abraham tweeted that there's no decision yet, could come soon,

but there's no timetable either. So could come soon or could not come soon there's no information in that tweet other than it's it's not reporting that john lester signed somewhere well see i think that one counts because it it includes it includes both possibilities it includes uh the entire universe of times and as though it is reporting a timetable, right? I mean, could come soon or not come soon is what makes it. Now, I think the ones that say could come soon or the ones that say won't come soon, we've talked about basically calendar tweets. I think we've established that they don't add anything,

but they are at least presenting information. And so I don't consider those non-revelatory. The could come soon or could not come soon within one tweet, though, counts. Okay. One we got that you defended was a Mark Saxon tweet. The Dodgers will look into acquiring Alexi Ogondo, but so will a lot of teams. Yes. See, now when you say it like that, it does sound a little bit different than I think I read it and as I think it was intended to be.

To me, this was a fully self-aware tweet about its lack of information and about the sort of cloud of possibilities that everybody's trying to sort through. everybody's trying to sort through. So I think that he was well aware that he was undercutting his own tweet, his own scoop in that sense, and was sort of, it was the kind of cool way of distancing yourself from a tweet that was obligatory. It's his job. He had to do it. And so he was having a little fun with it. I that was a good tweet and as i put it that tweet is our ally that tweet is uh on the same on the same side of the non-revelatory non-revelatory tweet debate i'm gonna turn you eventually i so i think we've gotten a few of these too not not just that one, but I think that there are lots of tweets that are non-revelatory because they don't aspire to be revelatory. And there is no harm in that. All of my tweets, for instance, are non-revelatory rumors. There are no

revealing rumors in any of my tweets. However, they don't aspire to have revealing rumors in them. And a lot of, I think a lot of the tweets that sometimes get submitted, they don't have a rumor, but they're not trying to. They're sort of very, very conscious of what they're not adding to the conversation. And so I don't judge those people at all. Okay. And lastly, Chris Cotillo, sources, Dodgers may be willing to make Zach Greinke available in trade talks with opt-out next year looming. I thought it was even better than that because that doesn't sound bad to me. It's not too bad. It's a may be willing to make someone available. Oh, so yeah, but we're just repeating now.

Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. I thought there was another cranky tweet that was better. I don't know. That's enough for today. So there was a definition of a way, which maybe you saw. It's a famous way. It's a notable way. It's the Orioles way, but it's a restatement of it.

Just clarifying what the Orioles' way is in 2014. This was an Adam Jones statement in the wake of Nick Markakis signing with Atlanta. He said, the reason why Markakis is special is, you know the Oriole way? Well, he's the definition of the Oriole way. He straps it on. He plays every day, plays hard, runs hard down the line. He dives, he's gritty Got eye black on

Plays the game hard, plays the game with respect That's the Orioles way I don't think that is the Orioles way Really? I don't think that You think you know better than an actual Oriole I Which Oriole said it?

Adam Jones Yeah, I don't think Adam Jones is referring to canon. He's retconning the Oriole's Way. Yeah, I think this is an Adam Jones reboot of the Oriole's Way, and I'm not having it. The Oriole's Way, I respect because it is the most tangible. It is the original. It is the seminal text in the way universe. And so I don't think that that's right. So anyway, but Nick Marquegas does represent some good things.

Sure. We can agree on that. I think that Nick Marquegas to to me, really does represent the Braves way. Wherever he goes, he is the definition of the way. What does this Marquegas signing with Atlanta say about his MVP chances? Is this a lateral move in terms of his likelihood of finally getting a vote? lateral move in terms of his likelihood of finally getting a vote? I think he's much less likely to be the vote recipient on a contending Braves team than he was with the Orioles. The Orioles, it was sort of a special situation because they didn't really have

a star who was obviously deserving of MVP consideration. Adam Jones is the most famous player, but, you know, he's not a seven-win player. Steven Pierce was their probably best player, and there was no way he was getting a vote. And so Mark Haggis seemed like he could back into it just by being well-known and representing the apparently Orioles way. So I feel like with the Braves, though, he's much more clearly not the guy who gets votes in that lineup. Easier if Upton gets traded.

Yeah. But still. And finally, we talked about the Josh Donaldson trade on Monday. Did the reports that came out about him supposedly clashing with Billy Bean over requesting days off and Billy Bean overruling Bob Melvin or being upset about Bob Melvin giving him permission and then Donaldson calling him Billy Boy, and giving him permission, and then Donaldson calling him Billy Boy, all of which being denied had any role in the trade or refused to confirm that it actually happened. Did any of that clarify what was somewhat of a perplexing move when we discussed it earlier this week? I think that it is not a very strong narrative. I don't think that it has anything to do with it.

I don't think that a GM could survive for nearly two decades if he was going to be essentially lowering himself to whatever the lowest standard is in his clubhouse. Because there are a lot of players who are very mature. There are players who are exceptional human beings. very mature. There are players who are exceptional human beings, definitely without question, definitely grownups. But in an organization of hundreds of players who are not selected for their ability to behave like grownups, but rather their ability to throw a baseball at another baseball human, there are really, really, really, I think, really low maturity guys that you're going to have to deal with. And I just don't think any GM would survive if they stooped to that level. I think the GM's job is, and really everybody who's not a player, but especially the GM's job,

is to be the grown-up in the organization, the centered source of stability in this organization of children and grown-ups. And so I don't think it would work out if he were doing that. So I'm just going to assume that that has nothing to do with it. Yeah, and it would be different if that kind of attitude were directed toward Melvin maybe or directed toward other A's players perhaps, but this has no bearing on that. And there was a tweet from Donaldson a couple weeks before he was traded

essentially calling A's ownership liars. He tweeted something about how they say they have no money, but they actually do have money. So it seems like there was some sort of bad blood there over something, but I find it hard to believe that that really precipitated the trade or that Bean made a trade that he would have been very uncomfortable with otherwise just because of this perhaps conflict. And it's, I don't know, he's, Donaldson was signed for a long time. was a player versus GM thing, if it existed at all, doesn't seem like something that would disrupt the team day to day or make a trade imperative. So I don't know. It's worth mentioning,

I suppose, but probably doesn't change my interpretation a whole lot. Yeah. Okay. Good gossip, though. It is good gossip. So we're kind of blurring the lines between banter and actual topic here. But I will just segue into an article I wrote for today, which is kind of a winter meetings preview of sorts, just a handful of questions that people are wondering heading into next week. And just wanted to talk about a couple situations. Maybe we can start with the Braves, since we talked about them a bit already. And they've had an interesting last calendar year. First, signing all their young core and everyone approving of the extensions that they seem to make

and cementing all this young talent for years to come and then they had a very good first half and they were 52 and 43 and since then everything has i guess superficially fallen apart at least there's there's the 27 and 40 record in the second half they missed the playoffs their GM was fired they traded their best player they haven't traded BJ Upton which might be the worst worst of all and so now there are these Justin Upton rumors Justin Upton rumors. And so I've seen people respond to the Hayward trade and the Upton rumors and some John Hart comments by saying that the Braves are rebuilding now, that they're planning for 2017 when their new stadium opens. But it's not a clear rebuilding by any means. They traded Hayward because he was only under contract for one more year. They were pretty sure they weren't going to resign him.

And they got Shelby Miller back, who is a guy who can contribute right away. And pitching was what they needed. And then they signed Nick Markakis, which is not something that a typical rebuilding team would do. And yet they're also talking about trading Upton, who is their best remaining hitter, and he's another guy who's going into his walk here. So it's a difficult line that they appear to be trying to walk between they're trying to add some team control years and cut salary in certain

cases, and yet also continue to compete. And it's maybe not quite clear how the Marquecas signing fits into that pattern. You wrote a bit about the Marquecas signing and we won't discuss it at length but what was your your general reaction i actually didn't get too deep into what it means for the braves because i don't think that we know what it means for the braves until we see what the next move is or if there isn't a next move um it's very hard to... I mean, it's easy to say, well, they intend to cash Justin Upton in for big monies or whatever they're going to get. And once you do that,

then you need a corner outfielder. And Marquegas is a corner outfielder, and it doesn't seem all that... He's a guy. That's what they would have needed. It gets different if they're planning to keep up to it and then you have to figure out all these things. So I just don't think that it's all that easy to say what Marquecas means.

You know, Marquecas is basically a guy who they probably thought is about an average ball player or a little bit better, and they are paying him to do that. The commitment is long for a guy who's not really that special it's uh as as i rob mccune helped me find out basically guys who are paid what nick marquez is getting paid never get four-year deals uh they get two year deals that's what you you know you pay a guy, you know, what is the equivalent of $11 million in 2015 dollars. If you're only willing to pay him that much,

you're probably only willing to give him, you know, a year or two or maybe three because he's not a special player. You don't want to block him. You don't want to commit a whole lot of, block anybody. You don't want to commit a whole lot of resources and risk to a player who's not all that special. So that's somewhat interesting that they would go four years. I don't know if that's because they had to, and that's what Marquecas was asking for,

and so they went as far as he required, or if it's kind of about their own farm system, which has some prospects but not outfield prospects at all and so i don't know he marquegas just sort of feels like like a hedge to me a hedge against everything it's a hedge against their farm system he's a hedge against uh he he's a guy who basically if they keep up in if they trade up in either way marquegas has a place to play, will have a place to play and doesn't cost a whole lot. It doesn't really cost much this year. The four-year commitment like I said is a bit much but it's just sort of like it's a kind of a, it's the player that you sign because otherwise you might look around in April and realize that

you signed one player too few and you don't have anybody to stand at that position. Yeah, it's not exciting. And they don't have to trade Upton. Maybe they'll trade Gattis instead, or maybe they'll trade neither. Maybe they'll trade Upton at the deadline if they don't have a great first half. But it uh an interesting trajectory for a team to take and it's a kind of a different difficult balance to maintain it is interesting though because i i've this has been on my mind because i've been editing the bp annual essay on the braves but i i'm just constantly surprised at how quickly everything turned around for the braves because in 2012 and 2013 they had the best record in baseball and then, they had the best record in

baseball. And then in 2014, through the trade deadline, I mean, remember, they were trading four people on the deadline. On July 31st, they were adding parts because they were, I think, like a half game out of the wildcard, out of the top wildcard spot. I think they were tied for the second wildcard spot. They had 51% playoff odds. Nobody in the world thought that the Braves were needing to rebuild, to fire their GM, to fire their hitting coach. None of that seemed necessary at all. They were one of the model franchises. And literally two months, and not even really two months, they fell behind in the first three weeks of August. They lost, I think they went like 3-10 immediately after the deadline, but then they won like 9 out of 10 or something like that.

So it wasn't even that. It was basically September. They went like 2-55 in September or something obscene. And that was it, like one month. And I know that the word out of their club is that Ren, well, not the word, not the official word, but kind of the tea leaves are that Ren was sort of not fired because of that season specifically, that it had been building up and all that. But all the same, you have to figure that if they make the playoffs, he's still the GM.

Hitting coach is still the hitting coach. And it would look really, really weird that they were rebuilding. So what I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is that I'm still not sure how they view themselves. I think that I don't think

they see themselves as rebuilders at all. I think they saw the Hayward deal as a way to address the weakest spot in their team and the spot that was going to be a lot harder for them to upgrade. I don't think that they thought that they could necessarily sign the pitching equivalent of Nick Marcakis as a free agent this year. There's not that many pitchers and they tend to get really expensive.

And they needed a lot of pitchers and that was a problem last year. So I think that the Hayward deal doesn't seem like rebuilding to me. They trade Upton, we have to see what they're getting. But I don't really think that this is any sort of teardown at all. I think they still think that they're good enough to win. Zach Levine polled the BP authors to see what they thought, what we all thought the Braves are as a team right now, like what we predict that they will finish next year.

And the most common answers were third and fourth place in a tie. It was almost everybody said third or fourth. A few people said second. I don't think anybody said first. So we're not very optimistic as a staff, I guess, but I think the Braves probably are. That was pre-Mark Akis for whatever it's worth. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It looks like a change in trajectory or approach or something, but I'm not convinced that it really is. So that makes them interesting. And then I wrote a bit about the pitching market

because it's the second straight season that the pitching market has been really slow to develop. Last winter it was because of Tanaka and everyone waiting to see whether his posting process would work out. And this winter it seems to be that there was just a run on position players, possibly because there were so few available on the free agent market this winter. And most of the top names on that board are gone. And the biggest starter signed is A.T. Burnett, I think.

His one year, eight and a half million was the largest free agent pitching or starting pitching contract signed so far. So that's interesting. And one would think that as soon as Lester signs, which seems more or less imminent, that some of the other dominoes there will fall. But I wrote more about the Dodgers and the Red Sox because those both seem like teams that have just been building to trades for a really long time. And we've been watching it build and watching it build and wondering when and how that pressure on their rosters will get released. And it seems like it has to be sometime soon, not necessarily during the winter meetings. But we talked a lot last winter about the Dodgers outfield, how everyone was speculating that they needed to trade an outfielder because they had four guys for three spots. And I remember saying, and maybe we both said, that it didn't seem to us like they really needed to trade an outfielder because they needed the redundancy. They had a couple guys who they couldn't count on to stay healthy. They had Ethier, who's almost a

platoon player anyway, and it more or less worked out. They had occasional complaints from veterans who weren't playing enough, but otherwise it came in handy. Crawford got heard and they had someone to fill that spot. And the situation has changed now though, because now it's not just four guys for three spots. It's more like seven guys or six guys for three spots. So it's not only the four from last year, and Ethier recently said that he does not want to be a part-time player anymore. He wants to start somewhere.

But it's also Jock Peterson, who had a very good year at AAA and made it to the majors. Scott Van Slyke was the best Dodgers hitter on a per-plate appearance basis, so he'll have some role. And then, somewhat confusingly, Andrew Friedman traded for Chris Heisey earlier this week, just adding another outfielder to this mix.

Yeah, and also they were thinking about, I don't know how far it went, but they were thinking about having Alex Guerrero be an outfielder because he was blocked at second base and didn't seem to be able to play anywhere else. Yeah. So this time something has to give, right? There has to be a move here.

I think we might be making too much of Chris Heisey. Yeah, right. I mean, but even without Chris Heisey, I don't know what to make of the Chris Heisey acquisition. I guess he can play multiple positions and they can just fit him in somewhere or maybe fit him in nowhere. But without Heisey, there's enough there that it seems like something has to change. And there have been... It seems like...

Well, sorry. I don't know. I don't mean to interrupt you. Am I interrupting you? Do you have a big thought? I was just going to say that there have been lots of Matt Kemp rumors. Yeah. So I still think that in a weird way, they still don't really have too much. I mean, Peterson is good enough to play.

And so that's the big thing, right? You don't want to block him unnecessarily for another year. I mean, he's ready. And Puig obviously is going to play. Puig is good enough to play. And so he'll have to play. And Kemp probably is good enough to play. Although now, I don't know, who's center fielder in that group? Is Peterson? That's the problem. I mean, Kemp was like the second best hitter in baseball in the second half last year, except for behind Buster Posey. So he can hit, but yeah. I guess Peterson is a center fielder in this alignment though. So you've got those three. And then Ethier, who cares what Ethier wants?

Like Ethier isn't good anymore. If you can get something for him, great. But I mean, the guy had like what, like an 80 OPS plus last year as a corner outfielder. And he might say, well, that's because I wasn't playing every day. And another might say, well, that's because I wasn't playing every day. And another person said, well, that's why you weren't playing every day. And so that's not really an issue.

Van Slyke's not really an issue, right? I mean, he was really good last year, but, you know. Yeah, he's right. And then Heisey's not an issue. And then Crawford should play But you're not going to At this point I don't think you're going to put a position in Crawford's hands And expect him to be there for a year

I guess the problem is that Crawford is too flawed To count on for a season And he's limited, he can only play left really Crawford is too flawed to count on for a season. And he's limited. He can only play left, really. But too good to not have around, right? I mean, he probably thinks that he'd... Like, when he's healthy, he should play.

But, you know, you can't count on him. So, I don't know. I don't know that it's that much riches at this point. Probably they have the surplus. They should probably, I mean, it's probably nice when you can cash in some of your surplus and get other things for it. But if they went into camp with this alignment, with this group, I wouldn't consider it to be a huge problem still. A little more than last year, but not as big as the Red Sox. I would guess that they do something.

I would guess that it's more likely that they'll do something with Ethier or Crawford than it is with kemp i know there have been a bunch of rumors about kemp and the orioles and the padres and maybe some of them sound reasonable and kemp is not a good defender i mean partly that's because he was forced to play center field a lot last year and that kind of cut into his value. But if you traded Kemp, I mean, last year the problem with trading Kemp was that his value was so low, no one could count on him to stay healthy or to be productive if he was playing.

Now his value is back up again to the point where he's pretty valuable to the Dodgers, and they would have to get something useful back at a different position. I mean, he's one of their better hitters, so they're not going to trade him for prospects like the A's might because of payroll constraints or something. So they would have to be improving by the amount that they are losing at Kemp's position, whatever that would be, at some other position, and that's maybe not the easiest thing to do. So I wouldn't rule out the possibility that that could happen, but I would guess that it's more likely that they just do the less momentous thing

and just eat half of Aether's contract or something and send him off somewhere. And maybe the fact that it's a Coletti contract and there's a whole new front office in charge, maybe that makes it easier to do. There's no personal sense of shame in eating a contract that you awarded to someone. So maybe that removes one roadblock and i could easily see something like that happening but the red socks you're right that that seems like a that seems like a situation that something has to happen not only because the depth charts are just full of outfielders and position players, but because there's also a more obvious need that those position players could be used to fill. The Dodgers are interested in pitching and could use some pitching,

but they don't need pitching like the Red Sox need pitching. So we'll see what happens there. If they don't get Lester, then I would imagine that they become the favorites for or among the favorites for the remaining elite starting pitchers on the free agent market. And maybe they get one of those guys. And then if they get one of those guys, they still have to make a trade. But maybe it won't be as huge a trade. as huge a trade. Maybe they'll go for one of those guys that are entering their walk here,

like Latos or Samarja or Cueto or Iwakuma, guys who would still cost something, but not as much. And maybe they could get one of those guys with Cespedes and Middlebrooks and Bradley and Marrero and those kind of expendable assets. Whereas if they went after Hamels or something, they would have to bring Betts and Bogarts and Swihart into the discussion. And that would be more painful, but probably necessary if they want to compete next season. I overstated how badly Ethier was. Sorry about that. He was like an average hitter, right? He was about an average hitter, right? He was about an average hitter, yeah.

But still, I mean, if Nick Marcakis can get four years and $44 million, is he that much better than Andre Ethier? It depends. I guess it depends whether you made hand motions when you said that. Sorry, no, I mean, that could refer to almost anything. You could have been pointing at a sliver of cheesecake that's very, very thin. You're right.

I was pointing to the cheese grinder on Ryan Webb's registry. He is not that much better, no. All right. He might be the placemat. Much better. Like the vertical size of the placemat, not the horizontal. Okay. So we will end the show, end the week here.

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