Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 794: Belated Barry Bonds Banter

Episode Date: January 11, 2016

Ben and Sam discuss how long Barry Bonds will last as the Miami Marlins’ hitting coach.

Young girl, they call them the Diamond Dogs Young girl, they call them the Diamond Dogs Call them the Diamond Dogs Call them the Diamond Dogs Good morning and welcome to episode 794 of Effectively Wild, the daily podcast from Baseball Perspectives, brought to you by The Play Index at BaseballReference.com. I'm Sam Miller, along with Ben Lindberg of five 38. Hey Ben. Hello. How are you? All right. A little sad about Bowie like the rest of the world. Yeah. But otherwise well. All right. Good. Well now everybody knows where we stand on Bowie dying.

That's right. Not, not happy about it. No. Against. Against, yeah. Amazing we made it this far into the show without having our position on his death known. Mm-hmm. All right, is that all? Anything else? Yeah, that's probably it. All right. So I have a question for you.

Did we ever talk about Bonds as the batting hitting instructor for the Marlins? I don't think so, not at length. I don't remember it either. I don't know why we wouldn't have. Did we? I don't remember it either i don't know what i don't know why we wouldn't have we might did we i don't remember saying anything about it there's a lot of things we say on this show that i don't remember saying but that's one of them i also don't remember saying many things on this show like it almost almost immediately i have forgotten what i've said and yet what's weird is that every once in a while i will like episode 22 will be in my vision

somehow and i'll be like oh i'll listen to that and i'll listen to it and what's weird is that every once in a while I will like episode 22 will be in my vision somehow. And I'll be like, Oh, I'll listen to that. And I'll listen to it. And what's weird is that I am listening and in my head saying the next line, not because I know I'm going to say it, but because it's all the same brain as it used to be, you know, like it's still my brain and it's the same jokes. You know, like it's still my brain and it's the same jokes. It's the same quote unquote insights. At one point you had like a subject modifier disagreement in your sentence and it was just a totally pedantic little grammar weasley thing that I wanted to say to you in response. And then I said those exact six words. So I don't remember the things that I've said, but all the things that I've said I would say again probably anyway.

Okay. So we can say something about Barry Bonds in that spirit if you want to. It's going to be a disaster, right? Yeah. The reason that I – even if we had talked about it, I was going to bring it up again anyway, because the more I think about it, the more I just don't see any path to this working. And partly it's because, well, I think that there are two things that define Barry Bond's

surliness. And you can argue about whether it is justified surliness, whether it is a rational response to the absurdity of those around him, or whether he's a jerk. And people have opinions and they will have opinions. But I think that even if you think that his surliness is fine and at worst morally neutral. I think that you can still define it basically in, in, in two ways. One is he does not suffer fools. And two is he does not like to be asked to do things. He is very happy to do things, but he doesn't want to be put upon to do things. And so the not suffering fools part of it, I think, uh, you, that mainly

is how you, is what you saw in his relationship with reporters. I, I think that it is, there are, there are obviously some great beat writers out there. There are great columnists out there. There are great baseball writers out there, uh, and they do an important job, but for the most part, I think, you know, on, you know, honestly, bluntly, and this was probably even more true some years ago, maybe it wasn't, but the pack of reporters that follows you to your locker is, you know, not exactly titans of either literature or the sport.

They're people who like baseball and so do this for a job. They're not, you know, they're not the greatest in the world at it. They just, they're willing to do it for money, right? Like that's kind of the nature of most people doing jobs. And I think that Barry Bonds was a Titan of the sport, knew things about the sport and knew certainly things about the team and the people around him and himself, most of all, that they could never know. And I think that he had a very hard time disguising his impatience with people who would ask him dumb questions or view the game on a level that was, you know, four or five levels lower than he was operating on and that he was, you know,

really interested in talking about right right so doesn't suffer fools and then doesn't like to be asked things i mean we hear all the time about what a great kind of informal hitting instructor he is with teammates or when you know comes back and visits the giants and i you know i think that he probably is able to like i bet he could take any hitter, just about any, any raw hitter and improve them in two minutes of work, at least improve them marginally by pointing something out or telling them something. I'm sure he has great wisdom stored in his brain, but I just don't get the feeling that he wants to be ever told. Now you have to go talk to that guy

and make him, I think he likes to do it because it comes out of his generosity of, of, of his spirit or whatever. And not because he has to. And I feel like what always drove bonds was internal, that he was very internally driven and, and was never playing for a boss and to be in a position like this, which is an extremely subordinate position,

this is not his island. He has multiple levels, really coming from different directions of oversight. And it's just hard for me to imagine anybody above him is going to feel comfortable coming to him and telling him what he has to do next. And it's hard for me to imagine that he's going to be comfortable with any of them doing that if they do. So those are the two challenges.

And I think that it could, if it were going to work, it would be in an organization other than the Marlins, where I think that anybody who is around that organization can quickly see that it is run by fools. It is run by a fool. It is not a well-run organization. Yeah. Probably could have just said, because it's the Marlins, and that's as good a reason as any to think it won't work. Yeah. Well, that's the primary thing. If he were working for, like, I could see it working really well, for instance, and, you know, partly because of the personal connection, but well, maybe, maybe it wouldn't be good. The nationals have their own issues with ownership and management, but like I could see if, you know, if Dusty Baker were his manager and Dusty, partly because he knows Dusty and partly because Dusty is very laissez-faire, I could see that working. There

are teams I could, I would entertain the idea that it could work really well, but the Marlins are not that. And everybody who seems to be around the Marlins, particularly at that kind of level of oversight, the Marlins go through hitting instructors a lot, but they go through managers a ton too, more than any other team, I think. And so it's already not a great scenario. I also think that as a slight tangent from this banter, I don't think we've really talked enough about how crazy the Dan Jennings thing was. And not so much crazy the idea of it, not the implementation of it,

so much as him getting fired and leaving the organization after this. so much as him getting fired and leaving the organization after this. Because you either put him in there because he, like the only reason you put your GM in the manager's chair is if you really want a GM that you can relate to, that you can talk to, that will be your right hand, that you want to have your extremely loyal lieutenant in that position. And it is a leap to do that because no other team does that. They always have an independent manager, but you do it because you want to have a not independent manager. And if

you want to have a not independent manager, you want it to be the guy that you love, that is as loyal to you as anybody will ever be and that is thinking along with you at all times and the idea that not only that they put dan jennings in and he could only make it 100 games and then he was out of the organization entirely means that either means that either loria is so hard to work with as a manager that even his most loyal lieutenant couldn't handle it. In which case, what chance does Don Mattingly or anybody else ever have? Or that Jennings and Loria were never that close. In which case, why would you put him in that position?

In what way does that decision make any sense if he's just a GM that you're kind of cool with and not much more than that? It's like one way or the other. And that's really the story of all the Marlins, managerial hirings and firings. You don't know whether it's that they're really bad at hiring people or if they're really bad at managing good people once they've hired them. But if you fire managers as frequently, you are doing one or the other, if not both, but certainly one or the other very, very poorly. And Dan Jennings is the, maybe the most like unignorable example of that. Yeah. I do still think it sort of, we talked when it happened about whether it would be any kind of referendum on whether this would work or whether non-players can be managers. And I do think if you had to draw a lesson one way or the other from that experience, you probably would say that it can

work because it did work. I mean, there was some dysfunction in the Marlins clubhouse, which came out after the season, but you'd sort of expect some dysfunction in the Marlins clubhouse, no matter who's running it. And it wasn't so bad that the team rebelled or rioted or fell apart or went on strike or anything, that they played better or at least won at a higher rate than they had with Mike Redman there. So it wasn't a complete catastrophe. It was really strange and maybe emblematic of the Marlins weirdness as a whole, but it was sort of a success in that people forecasted a catastrophic failure and it wasn't

one. No, I agree. The lesson is definitely that you could do this. I think now if the, if there was an issue that, I mean, this is obviously a sample of one, or an N of one, so we don't really know whether this applies to every time that a team might possibly try this in the future. But if there is an example of it being irreconcilably impossible, I don't know why I didn't just say irreconcilable, then it was not can the non-ball player executive come into the club, into the dugout and lead 25 men on the field in roughly the same way that, you know, an ex-player who was not in the front office could. Because you're right. He answered that it was more or less normal looking baseball.

baseball. And the question is whether it worked, whether there was something about putting the GM in the dugout that made it impossible for the manager to work with the owner, because that's really where it fell apart. It fell apart with Jennings and Loria fighting over Marcelo Zuna. And I don't know whether that issue would have come up regardless of who was in the managerial seat or whether there is something about being the GM that creates, I don't know, like a different power dynamic where the GM who becomes the manager

is going to be very sensitive to being seen as a pawn of the owner. The GM is also probably in some ways going to feel more power to push back against the owner because these are his guys. This is not a group that has been handed to him and he's been told, Hey, make it work. Rather, he has actually gone out and acquired all these players they're the first he's their first contact uh and he knows them better than anybody and uh so basically directing that guy the gm guy who's now the manager guy to bench one of your nine best players because the owner doesn't like him and or wants to cost him a few million bucks down the line.

Maybe that was impossible. And I mean, we've seen other man, like we, you know, the, it's not any different. It's,

it's not really any different than the Cubs keeping, you know, Chris Bryant down. And, you know, we didn't see Joe Maddon revolt about that. And it's not really any different than, you know,

any other examples, although it is different in some ways because Ozuna was by that point that point an established major leaguer so maybe the com i mean it maybe it was different but we don't really know we don't know how another manager would have handled it but that's where it broke down and you can see the gm owner relationship being very fraught when you give the gm sort of extra power uh as a, or arguably when you take away some of his power. Was it, now we still, I don't know that we still know whether it was a demotion or a promotion. Yeah, maybe they don't know.

Maybe they didn't know. I don't think it has been totally explained. If it's a demotion, then it makes even less sense because that's a pretty important position. And if you're willing to demote your GM because you don't like him, then you probably should just fire him not demote him to an extremely important and extremely visible position so i still think i still think of it as a promotion even if the gm technically outranks the manager i think of it as promotion and my guess is that

jenny my guess is is that jen like, yeah, this is awesome. I get to wear a uniform. Yeah. Free gum. I don't know. I would guess he served somewhat reluctantly. You think so? Or had misgivings.

Anyway, back to Bonds for a second. He did an interview last month with Barry Bloom at MLb.com and he sounded i wouldn't say ambivalent exactly but he sounded very aware of how likely it is that this won't work like really tell me tell me more bloom said so it sounds like you're ready for it and bond said i'm going to try it out give it my best shot i'll see by about july i might no longer want to do it huh so he says he's excited but he also says he didn't want to do this it wasn't like a goal of his to coach in fact he said in the past that he didn't want to do this full time he doesn't want to be on the plane and be in hotels all the time and be away from home and all that stuff. But Loria called him and then like Bonds' mother helped talk him into it. So it sounds, he says he's very excited, but he also sounds like it was

not remotely his idea and he sort of got talked into it. And on some level he knows or he thinks about this the way that we're thinking about this, which is it's kind of cool that it's happening, but it's not going to work. He doesn't have any experience with Loria that we know of, right? No, I don't think so. I wonder how you talk Barry Bonds into leaving his home and working for you for eight months at money that means nothing to him. Like what did they promise him? I think he says, well.

Oh, this is weird too. Donnie called and said he had followed my career. So he doesn't even know Mattingly. Right. Followed, yeah. He followed my career. I've heard of them. They played against each other a lot.

They didn't, did they? Well, I guess, I mean, they played, they were contemporaries. They were contemporaries. I guess they didn't play against each other in different leagues. But Donnie really impressed me when he knew who I was. Told me, he knew that I, you know, he knew about the home run record, which I'm really proud of. That really impressed me a lot. He'd done his research.

Yeah. He'd done his homework. Yeah. Loria came to me. He wanted me. He asked me what it would take because we thought you would work good with our kids. Loria said he wanted to win. That's a great quote, by the way. Loria said he wanted to win, but he wants to put together a good team first. Yeah. What does that mean, Ben? Well, maybe he's referring to the coaches. He wants to put together a good team for his good coaches so he can put together a championship. So that's all it takes, I guess.

So it sounds just, it sounds about like what you'd think it would sound like. Jeffrey Loria, he told me, Barry, when you think about it, you have so much to give the game, you have so much to offer to baseball, and you can teach these kids. So a little flattery. Yes. I mean, it helps that Mark McGuire has sort of paved this path. I mean, you know how it used

to be that like, well, I don't know if you remember, do you remember Hugh Grant and his sex scandal in 94, 95? I don't remember it at the time. I know about it. So after that, for years, it was almost like a joke that anytime someone had a scandal in their lives, that the model that you follow is Hugh Grant and you do whatever he does and then you show up on Leno uh and uh and like Leno is your big redemption moment and Maguire is kind of is kind of that right you kind of expect to see I would sort of expect to see a lot of the tainted PED guys trying to find ways into the game this way.

Because it is a way to change the conversation about yourselves. And more than anything, you know, like once you get older, as long as you stay visible when you're older, it's much easier to rebuild that respect. Of course, it didn't help McGuire in Hall of Fame voting if that was something he was thinking about. But it helped in some other way. Yeah. So, yeah, you can tell him that he can do good for kids. You can tell him that it will change the way people see him and talk to him, I guess. But I don't know. I don't know what Barry Bonds is interested in doing beyond age 51.

So I don't know how to get him there particularly. He likes cycling. Yeah, I would think that Barry Bonds would want to be alone. You don't get the feeling that... What they're offering him is a way back into baseball. And it doesn't seem like that was a world that he ever really wanted to be in particularly. He wanted to hit baseballs but you never got the feeling that the the community of baseball was one that he felt valued him or that he particularly saw as as valuable you know the community around baseball

yeah so it's kind of odd it helps that i know so many of the coaches timmy wallach i've known forever a lot of guys i've either played with or against had dinner with had some laughs with that makes it a lot easier is it possible that barry bonds just doesn't have any friends like seriously like i'm sincere like is it possible that he's just doesn't really have friends and that this is a way that he can have human interaction with people who are not being paid by him i don't't know. I don't know. Do you ever see Barry Bonds? Do you ever see Barry Bonds in public with people? Rarely. He ate the frozen yogurt. And then that one time with Kim and Kanye, right? Yeah, I guess that's true. But yeah, well, there was that long ESPN story about his cycling and how he was sponsoring that cycling team.

And he has a girlfriend, right? I mean, it sounded like he has a fairly full life in that profile. Maybe he put forth his best picture of his life, but it didn't seem like he was unhappy in that piece. I kind of want to honor my dad for what he did. His dad was a hitting coach, so it could be somewhat related to that, right? Honor my godfather for what he did. Was Willie Mays, did Willie Mays ever coach?

The Mets offered Mays a coaching position upon his retirement. Yeah, I think that he did. When he was promoting that casino, the commissioner told him he could not be both a coach and at the same time work at the casino. And so he chose to terminate his baseball relationships. Okay. He's also on the Wikipedia page of New York Mets coaches. All right. Okay. So maybe that's part of it. If you had to pick a date in the pool or what's the percentage that he lasts the season? He's on a one-year deal, which probably is something he wanted, I would think.

So what are the odds that he makes it through the year and that also that he comes back, that this is not a one and done? It's weird that they didn't just bring him in for spring training as a trial or something and then because you know he says in here well i could come in and work for a day or two but then what happens when i leave and you know they forget or whatever but you could always like it seems like you'd want to see him for a month in your organization before yeah he's done that for the Giants, right? Yeah, but not for the Marlins.

And like, that was for a day or two. I'm sort of thinking six weeks. But what's my date in the pool? First of all, let's establish, what's your date in the Don Mattingly pool? That's a good question, too. I'd guess he makes it one season. So do you think he'll be the opening day manager in 2017? How long a contract did he sign?

Not that it matters that much really. Yeah, I don't know. But it was a fairly long deal, I think, maybe. I think he will be. Yeah, I do too. So I'd say Mattingly, I go uh fired after 2017 or quits in frustration after 2017 bonds i will say um june june 15 uh-huh okay so half a season ish not even quite his mom also seems to have been a factor. Yeah. And also flattery.

You might be one of the best teachers who ever lived. She's not saying you might be like, you're definitely in the top 10. You might be in the top five. She's saying you won't know if you don't try it. Yeah. So there's the mom factor. I don't know. It's really, I'm going to actually change mine. I'm going to say he doesn't make it out of spring.

And I'm not like, I don't, I don't, that sounds like I'm saying, you know, Barry Bonds, ah, Barry Bonds can't, can't even make it out of spring. I just don't think he's going to enjoy it. And I don't think that anybody's going to enjoy it if he's not enjoying it. And so it just becomes a very rational decision to end it when he decides, oh, okay, not for me. I mean, I guess it kind of hurts the Marlins if they have to hire a new hitting instructor on March 30th, but not that much.

Yeah, they already have Frank Manichino. He's also a hitting instructor. Yeah, I'm still reading this interview anyway sleeper sleeper best story of the offseason or weirdest yeah i'm glad it's happening you know be interesting one way or another yeah it's a great quote i'm gonna try it give it my best shot by july i I might not want it. Who knows? I'll bring my bike with me. It's always what you want to hear from your new hires. I don't know. Hopping on a plane, getting in at three or four in the morning. I don't know how

I'm going to cope with stuff like that. I go to bed early. Me being at work at eight o'clock in the morning. I don't give a darn about that but the hotel stuff every single day interesting i don't blame him i wouldn't want to do it either yeah it's weird this is not for me it's for them this is not for me it's for them is the them the the players or it's everyone we've mentioned not clear i i get i think it's probably the players. Yeah, okay. I'm not going to be in the press, which is generally a part of the job. I'm going to stay in my box. I'm not coming out of my box for anything.

I'm not going to do anything else. Running, hitting outfield. I'm probably the best at all of those things there. I think Ichiro might have more hits than me. What is this now? What is he talking about? He just randomly starts talking about how he's the best at everything. But other than that, I'm not coming out of my box for anything. Okay.

All right. Well, I don't know how. I wish there was a way to see how it's going better than we're going to find out. Right? Well, we found out when the Tino Martinez hitting coach era crashed and burned. We found out about that. So after the fact. Okay.

I mean, it seems like they've already, like, it's January 11th. They haven't even reported yet. Like, Barry Bones has, so far as I know, literally not started the job yet. Right? He's still probably at home. literally not started the job yet, right? He's still probably at home. And he and Mattingly are already upset at Loria or seem to be upset at Loria

for trying to get rid of Marcelo Zuna. This is the quote from Nick Caffardo at the Boston Globe. Up to 10 teams have inquired and or have serious interest, but Marlins executives are getting pushback from new hitting coach Barry Bonds and manager Don Mattingly, feeling they can shape Ozuna into a 30-30 performer and so it's already I mean like this is what made me think

about this again is like I'm trying to envision based on what we know about Barry Bonds which is admittedly limited although not that limited but based on what we know about Barry Bonds, which is admittedly limited, although not that limited. But based on what we know about Barry Bonds, it's hard for me to even imagine this scenario ending without like somebody quitting, you know, like, well, unless Loria doesn't trade Ozuna, like, like Loria could, could consent, could concede, could not trade Ozuna. But if he does, don't you just imagine that Barry Bonds is going to go, what? I told him not to. Why didn't he listen to me? What a fool. Like I told him he shouldn't and he still did. He must be an idiot or hates me. And so like, it already just feels like a small thing like this. Not that small, but a smallish thing like this, you just don't really necessarily see the

examples from the world's interactions with Barry Bonds of conflict resolution, you know? So I don't know. If you're going to work for Jeffrey Lurie, I mean, he has the best known track record of any MLB owner or almost anyone in baseball. So what do you expect going in? Do you still think that you're the person he's going to listen to and it's going to be totally different now? Would be really hard to convince myself of that if I were going to work for

the Marlins. Like Barry Bones would have days where he would talk to the media, where he would be very, very verbal. And he, uh, you know, he'd come in,

he'd give great quotes. He would still have sort of scorn in his voice, but the scorn was like, he was, you know, the scorn was almost charming and he almost seemed charmed by how much he hated them and all that. And so if you caught him on the right day,

you could, uh, you could work with him or you could at least put a tape recorder in front of him. And it sort of feels like – I'm sure this is not how it is. But the vibe that you get from this whole thing is that Loria caught Bonds on the right day. And Bonds is like, yeah, sure, I'll do that. And now he doesn't necessarily know how to get out of it. And it's like, oh, yeah, that Jeffrey Loria and that Barry Bonds. And I don't know. It's a lot of speculation about a personnel decision that hasn't even begun yet and that we don't really know.

But you just couldn't pick two people on either side who you would think it would have less chance of working right like there's there's no there is no player that like if you said okay who would be the last player you would pick to work for you if you were a gm maybe it wouldn't be bonds because maybe you'd say he knows the game better than everybody else but it probably would be bonds he's up there and if you had to pick one owner that you would absolutely not want to work for it would be loria yes and they've put them together and like it's not even like it's not a reality show it's not like you know some sort of weird thought experiment that someone put together it It's real life. And it's hard to imagine it working.

I guess I've said that phrase a bunch, but I'm not hoping it doesn't work. I'm not mad at anybody. It's just hard to imagine it working. Realistically, I can't see it. So I don't know. Maybe it'll be fun to watch it work. It should be fun.

Yeah, one way or another. And I mean, it can't be just a publicity stunt because it's not like anyone's going to buy tickets to a Marlins game to try to catch a glimpse of the hitting coach in the dugout. So it must be, I mean, it made the Marlins news for a few days in the offseason, mostly people saying this isn't going to work like we are now. So I don't know what the PR value to the Marlins from this is.

So presumably Luria thinks this is a good baseball decision, but he reverses his baseball decisions very quickly. All right, so we've got the dates in the pool now this the next the second final question in the pool is with whom will his relationship break down to the point that the change gets made will it be bonds and loria will it be bonds and mattingly will it be bonds and the players will it be Bonds and Mattingly? Will it be Bonds and the players? Will it be Bonds and the public eye? I guess Bonds and Mattingly, just because he's kind of his immediate supervisor in a sense.

And so if Bonds just checks out right away and isn't putting much into the job, then it would probably be Mattingly who has a problem with him first. Mattingly seems super chill is the one thing. That's true. And he's dealt with lots of clubhouse issues during his time with the Dodgers and dealt with them well, as far as we know.

So I guess if you're, if it's the Marlins, probably Lori is always the best answer. I think so too. All right. Okay. All right. Send us some emails,

podcast at baseball prospectus.com. Join our Facebook group, I think so too Alright Okay Alright Send us some emails Podcast at BaseballPerspectives.com Join our Facebook group Facebook.com Slash groups Slash Effectively Wild You can rate And review

And subscribe to the show On iTunes And you can support Our sponsor The Play Index At BaseballReference.com Use the coupon code BP

When you subscribe To get the discounted price Of $30 On a one year subscription We'll be back soon Boogie waits Code BP when you subscribe to get the discounted price of $30 on a one-year subscription. We'll be back soon. Oogie waits for just another day. Drags his bones to see the Yankees play.

Bones by tops and flickers grey Oh, they slip away