Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 878: Gender Imbalance in Baseball Operations

Episode Date: May 6, 2016

Ben and Sam talk to Dodgers Baseball Operations Coordinator Emilee Fragapane and Senior R&D Analyst Megan Schroeder about their backgrounds and responsibilities and the gender imbalance in baseball operations departments.

Look into my eyes Can't you see I got to come on in I ain't lyin' and I ain't smilin' by the baby Open the door, I'm bustin' in Because this runnin' around Sure enough, sure enough it's killing me Yes it is Good morning and welcome to episode 878 of Effectively Wild, the daily podcast from Baseball Prospectus

Presented by our Patreon supporters and the Play Index at BaseballReference.com I'm Ben Lindberg of FiveThirtyEight, joined as always by Sam Miller of Baseball Perspectives. Hello, Sam. Howdy. We have two special guests today, and we wanted to talk to them because a couple of weeks ago, Rob Arthur and I wrote something for FiveThirtyEight about the growth in baseball's R&D departments and really front offices in general. It seems like the count of full-time employees in R&D departments has doubled every few years over the last several.

And yet, as we noted, there is still a very pronounced gender imbalance in this area. And really, all across baseball operations departments, it's not just confined to R&D, although that tends to be what Sam and I focus on. And so that's what we wanted to talk about. So that tends to be what Sam and I focus on. And so that's what we wanted to talk about. And as Rob and I found it, it seemed as if there were of the 190 or so full-time R&D employees that we could count. And those definitions are somewhat murky, of course. We could only count five who were female and four who were in the game today.

And we have half of them on the line with us right now. And they are Megan Schroeder and Emily Fragetpani of the Dodgers. Hello, Megan. Hello. And hello, Emily. Hey. So thanks for joining us. And before we get into this any deeper, I just want to hear a bit about your backgrounds and what you do for the Dodgers. Of course, we know that you probably can't divulge too many details or your access will mysteriously be revoked and you'll be escorted out of the building. It's a very secretive front office. But to the extent that you can, tell us what your titles are and generally what your responsibilities are and have been. And I guess we can start with you, Emily.

Yeah, sounds good. So I actually have a bit of crossover with both the research department as well as the baseball operations department. So I'm coordinator of baseball operations here with Dodgers. I've kind of, again, like I said, kind of bounced back and forth. I work on, you know, both the back end projects in terms of handling data, as well as kind of preparing reports and things like that for, you know, for the front office, for staff and things like that. So kind of all over the board for me. I've been with the Dodgers for going on two years now. I interned between my undergrad and grad work. I did my grad work in economics at UC Santa Barbara. I'd work in economics at UC Santa Barbara. And then after I finished up with that, I came back here on full-time as an analyst. And then just this year kind of transitioned

into that coordinator role that kind of interfaces between the research and the baseball operations side. And Megan? Yeah, so I actually started a year and one day ago with the Dodgers. I'm a senior analyst in the research and development department. So similar to Emily, I do, you know, some daily reports and things like that,

interfacing with the front office. But I also do some crossover work with some of the medical and training staff, as well as player development, to kind of, you know, get into more performance-specific metrics. So my background is actually I did my undergrad and graduate school in biomedical engineering and then did a postdoc fellowship in data science and then started with the Dodgers after that. And so how did you end up with the Dodgers? Was it your goal to work in baseball all along, or was it just something that seemed to go along well with your skill set and one thing led to another? I guess, Megan, you could start this time. You know, I grew up playing sports. I loved playing

basketball. I loved playing softball. Through my studies, you know, I was always interested in sports, but never really thought that it was a real possibility for a job. But as I started to get to the end of my PhD and did my postdoc fellowship, I thought that my skill set might actually be something that was attractive to a team and looked at some opportunities and was fortunate enough to get an offer with the Dodgers. And Emily? Yeah, on my end, it's probably a pretty comparable story to Megan's. You know, I always, I actually didn't grow up playing softball or anything, but I always grew up loving the sport of baseball specifically.

And it was just something that, you know, it went well, again, with my skill set. You know, I enjoy working with numbers and data and model building and items like that. And so it worked nicely with something that I was already interested in and felt that, you know, I was good at and that, you know, it was a good time for me to try to get into the baseball industry with kind of this rise in analysts and a rising focus on working with data, big data, in the sports context.

And so, you know, again, like Megan, it wasn't something that, you know, I thought I was set on necessarily just because it seemed like such a long shot, but it was always kind of the end goal, best case scenario, and it worked out nicely. So I want to ask about the long shot aspect of it. I think there are a lot of reasons to be concerned or to be uncomfortable with the sort of overwhelming maleness of the sport. But one of those, and maybe one of the ones that's closest to a lot of people that Ben and I know, is that if you don't see a lot of women working in the game and you are a young woman who loves the game and has the skills to contribute to the

game, you don't necessarily see a clear path to a successful career. And that's particularly daunting because baseball clubs often ask their young analysts or their young employees to work extreme hours for relatively low pay. And a lot of people do it because the pot of gold at the end of it is worth it. But if you are a 21-year-old woman who doesn't see a lot of people who look like you thriving at the high levels of the game, it might seem like an even longer shot. Was that something that either of you felt when you were sort of making your initial approach into the game? Did it feel like a greater investment for less promise of return because of how you see front offices currently populated? I mean, I think for both of us, and this applies to both of us, that, you know, we both came

from, you know, in college we both came from, you know, in college, we came from, you know, kind of science heavy fields, math heavy fields. And I think that in a lot of ways, that kind of applies in college as well, at least for me personally, you know, my class had three other girls in it, you know, all the way through. And so I think that that's just something that at least for me, you know, I had acclimated to already I can see how that does become something that you know could be daunting but again I think that having come from that kind of for that background and already kind of having learned to acclimate and not generally having had problems with it you know it's it's always been a welcoming environment for me both you know in

school and here which you know I know I'm fortunate in but you, that was something that helped prepare me to enter a field that is, that does tend to be male-dominated. And then, you know, that's at least, you know, where I felt that I was prepared for something like that. Yeah, and I completely agree with Emily. Coming from an engineering background, there's really, you know, not a lot of women necessarily. So, and it was never an issue for me i always kind of felt comfortable in that in that type of environment and and here everyone has been great so it's it's been really we feel fortunate to be here there have been a bunch of

articles good articles written lately about this issue at the hardball times corinne landry wrote one and alexis brunicki wrote one and Alexis Brudnicki wrote one and at Baseball Prospectus recently, Kate Morrison. And they all sort of identified a kind of almost unconscious and usually unintentional sort of exclusionary language, or even if it's just as simple as, you know, playing softball instead of baseball or the sort of attire that's sold in team stores that, you

know, that, that sort of thing that just kind of gently, you know, pushes people away in some cases. I don't know whether either of you has really felt that. Is there any way in which you haven't felt welcomed or invited by the sport, either as a fan or now as a professional? I think, honestly, the only real, it's not even an issue. It's just that, you know, a lot of these roles, especially with kind of the baseball operations side, they tend to be helped by having playing experience, professional playing experience. And that's just something that, you know, in especially where you have more of an analyst role, such as myself and Megan, where it is not as critical and that you can make up for it by understanding the sport and loving the sport and watching the sport and, you know, being involved in it. And so, you know, at least for me, you know, here with the Dodgers is the only team I've worked for.

I have not experienced any issues like that, you know, and I've worked with our PD staff. I have not experienced any issues like that, you know, and I've worked with our PD staff. I've worked with, you know, our major league staff and there's been, you know, nothing but openness and welcomeness. And I, again, as Megan said, feel very fortunate that we're an organization who does function like that. And your boss, Farhan Zaidi, actually said last year when someone asked him about this, he said, if I'm going to put my geek cap on, it's a statistical impossibility that the best candidate for every position in baseball is a middle-aged Caucasian male.

So do you think that the low numbers come more in the application process? Are there qualified applicants who are trying to get jobs and being overlooked? Or do you think that the applications just aren't there, perhaps because of factors that, you know, take effect earlier in life? I think, you know, certainly we've been kind of going through a process of looking for excellent applicants. And, you know, it's not ever a question of gender. I think the numbers of the applicants on the

female side is definitely lower significantly lower there are very few that I've seen either yeah and I think that's something that happens beforehand but once you know any qualified person that kind of makes it through our screening process you know we've we've given you know every fair every fair opportunity to make it through and I think too this goes back to where Megan and I both had the same experience of in our math-based, engineering-based, science-based courses in college, which we were both at multiple institutions, and in all of our classes it starts there. There are very few other women in fields like that, and I think that it starts there rather

than just being an issue with front offices, with baseball in general. are very few other women in fields like that. And I think that it starts there rather than just being, you know, an issue with front offices, with baseball in general. Can you give us any sense of how many applicants you get, how competitive these positions are right now? So I think we had an open analyst posting that we reviewed upwards of 600 applications for, for two open positions. Wow. Now Ben doesn't feel so bad that he didn't get higher. So I was speaking to a few female baseball writers, which of course, you know, sports writing also tends to be a male skewed field. And I was kind of soliciting some questions from them. And one of them was

curious about sort of the impact that the lack of female representation has on your relationships in the game and whether it kind of, you know, makes you closer with the few other women that you do encounter, whether there's sort of a tendency to stick together with your cohort and whether, you know, you've had any female mentors in the field, or if you haven't, whether that presents any sort of challenge? I mean, I like to think both, you know, in a mentorship aspect and just in a peer context that, you know, our front office has done a really, really good job of building a cohesive R&D team with good people with excellent skill sets. And, you know, for me as well, you know, in both here and in college, I don't think that the gender of the mentor has mattered to me so much as,

you know, things that I can learn from, learn from them, and something that can build up my skill set, make me valuable, you know, to the team, and just in general, have, you know, good human capital. And to me, that's been what's mattered along the way, you know, is just being able to be good at what I do. And I feel that, you know, here as well with the team that we've built, you know, like I say, we have a good cohesive department. And that's been something that, you know, I very much appreciate that I'm surrounded by other people who are very good at what they do that I can learn from. Megan is one of them, but I don't think it necessarily has to do so much with wanting to stick with my cohort so much as wanting to learn from my peers in general. wanting to learn from my peers in general. So I don't know if you know this, but Ben and I just did a project last summer where we were running a baseball operations department for an independent baseball team. And so we spent the whole year in this entirely male environment,

like, you know, we're in this dugout where it's all men. And it is such an odd culture when there are no women. It's just like, there's this sort of sociopathicness to being uninhibitedly male that is sometimes really uncomfortable and really troubling to be around. And so to me, there's, like I said at the beginning, there's a lot of reasons to be concerned about the overwhelming maleness of any industry like baseball. But like, I wonder if you notice, I don't know, I don't even know if I expect an answer because I know that you like being Dodgers and it sounds like you really genuinely

do love being there. But do you see the culture of any, of the various institutions that you've been at where you've, you know, say that it's generally been largely male, does the culture seem different? Does it seem like something that would be improved simply by having a little bit more of a gender balance? Oh, that's an interesting question. You know, I grew up with two older brothers. And so

it's something I feel like I've been used to my whole life. And being in a tech field, being in baseball, I've found that people, you know, as long as you, like Emily said, are good at what you do, they come to respect you and appreciate you for that skill set as opposed to, you know, anything else. I'm also kind of curious, and this is sort of a tangent, and I think I can ask you this without asking you to spill any secrets. But one of the questions that Rob and I got when we wrote that article about the expansion or inflation in front offices was just at what point it becomes too many people. You know, is there a point at which you can have too many analysts, too many researchers, and it becomes inefficient because, I don't know, you have a function smoothly and make it so that you are not losing any of the advantages that you derive from having so many smart people there. I think our director, Doug Fearing, has done a really excellent job of, you know, finding the right people to bring in.

Even though we have, you know, grown substantially in the last year, you know, we're still we're bringing in the right people and everyone has very diverse skill sets and are able to kind of complement one another. So I think that's been the key. And certainly there's an inflection point where you have, you know, too many people. But I don't think that we're there yet. Definitely. And do you have any sort of it could be just general advice or advice for women specifically who are looking to follow in your footsteps? But obviously we get this question all the time. What should I do to work in baseball to make myself more attractive to baseball teams?

So what do you see as the keys? What would you encourage people to work on or study? And at what age should they be thinking about that? Personally, I would encourage people to start learning how to code. And you can do that. They have lots of programs for kids, for middle school kids. And starting early with that, I think, is really important in developing kind of a technical skill set. And just figuring out what you're passionate about,

and what what drives you is the most important thing and kind of just going after it. I think, I think that's, that's the best advice that I have. Yeah, and I definitely agree with that. I think that, yeah, coding, definitely, that's usually the one major point that I will bring up that it's important to, it's a good skill set to have. The other thing, you know, especially from just it kind of ties back to what we talked about from the perspective of being a female in this field, you know, it goes all the way back to, as we said, you know, wanting more women to have an interest in the science fields and the tech fields where, you know, like you brought up as well,

that it might be intimidating, but they're really good fields. And if it's something that you enjoy, that it's not worth letting that intimidation get to you, that it's something that's very valuable and enjoyable. So that speaks to the skills that it is helpful to develop. As far as getting noticed and having your resume maybe actually get a second look, this is, I mean, this question would apply to everybody who wants to work in the game, but is there a path? I mean, you, like you, you both came from different paths, but you have experience outside of baseball, for instance. Is that a useful thing to have? I mean, is, I feel like the only thing I usually have to offer to people who ask me this question is,

well, come right at baseball prospectus. That's worked for a few people and it, and it really helps me. But, uh, is there, is that a much more limited, uh, vision of how to get in the game than actually exists for the applicants that make it through? I mean, I, I think to a certain extent, it's just, again, it kind of just goes back to our comments before that to be able to if you're able in school or in you know as you say with baseball perspectives to be able to demonstrate that you're able to apply the coding skills and apply the modeling skills and things like that I think that having substantive items on your resume that kind of stand out that you can say you know here's work that I've done that can be applied to baseball, as well as demonstrate an understanding of the sport, you know, just if you, you know,

spend the time to immerse yourself in the sport and have an understanding of how it works. And, you know, not just how the front office works, but how gameplay works and kind of nuances of the game. For me, that's that stood out in some of the resumes that I've seen, that if the comments can demonstrate a good understanding of the sport as well as having a project or something that demonstrates that you can apply the skills that you say you have, I think that that tends to help an applicant stand out. And baseball has so much publicly available data.

I think for people who are interested in getting into the field, if they start, you know, playing around with that data, building something to just to demonstrate that a level of interest and the technical skill set kind of combined, that would be a really nice way to go about it. And we have a lot of technically inclined listeners. So could you be even more specific about what sort of languages you would recommend that people focus on or that you have found most helpful? I think the big ones kind of from a programming standpoint would be Python and R. And then demonstrating a knowledge of how to work with a database.

Those are kind of the main ones that I would say. SQL is probably pretty big as well. Is it a disadvantage if you haven't played, well, or I should say, is it an advantage if you've played college ball? And therefore, correspondingly, is it a disadvantage if you haven't or if you haven't played high school ball or if you haven't played at whatever level? Again, I think it kind of goes back to being able to demonstrate that you have a good understanding of the sport. I think that having played just kind of automatically helps

you have that skill set. But I don't think that, you know, it's mutually exclusive. You can have a good understanding of the sport and demonstrate that even if you haven't played, it just kind of gives you an automatic leg up, I think, in the effort that you make to understand the sport if you have been able to play in the past. And I guess, you know, this is a difficult question. I don't know exactly where the I guess, you know, this is a difficult question. I don't know exactly where the responsibility lies or where it would be best to apply effort to attract female applicants and encourage other women to be interested in the game and to want to work in the game.

I don't know whether that is something that each team should be thinking hard about, whether the league as a whole should be thinking hard about it, whether it goes all the way down to amateur ball or little league. But in general, would you recommend anything in particular for teams, for people who are looking to hire other people in your position to encourage women to apply or to even earlier in life, maybe to give them the idea that, hey, this is something that you can do and should do and would be welcome to do? Again, I think it kind of starts from the ground up. You know, there's a lot of programs now that are trying to get young girls excited about engineering, about math, and kind of starting to develop those programs more and support those

programs more. I think it'll all kind of, the coming years will kind of trickle down into the industries that are more heavily male dominated currently. Yeah. And I think, you know, one question that comes up often that we get is about the gap between public knowledge about baseball and private internal baseball team knowledge about baseball. Without getting into any specifics, do you think that that gap has grown over the years? Has it shrunk over the years? Are there new data sources that you think have brought the two closer together? Or, you know, is the wealth of information at your disposal and other people in your position still far ahead of what people listening to this podcast can look at?

I mean, I think for the most part, yeah, again, that's a little tough to answer. But for the most part, you know, a lot of the ability of, you know, the public sphere to build good analysis and build good models, I think is really aided by like the pitch effects software. I think that that's kind of the way that the industry and the public sphere is heading. And so I think that it's hard to say whether it's grown or shrunk, but I think that having that data available for people

is something that has really helped the public sphere advance the analysis that it does. All right. Well, I appreciate you coming on. I'm glad the Dodgers let you come on. I know that teams are not always eager to have their smart front office people talk to the press and those front office people are not always eager to do it. So I appreciate you coming on and I wish that I could tell people where they could check out your work. But the only way to do that, I guess, is to get a job with the Dodgers. And if you want to do that, then you are competing with several hundred other applicants. So it's tough, but it's not impossible.

Come watch a game. You'll see our workout on the field. Right. Exactly. All right. Well, Megan and Emily, thank you very much for coming on. Of course. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. So that's going to do it for us this week. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. Today's five Patreon supporters to thank are Matt Tufnel, Gregory Zagorski, William Martin, Joel Watts, and Ken Kopin. Thank you. You can, of course, buy our book.

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