Elevation with Steven Furtick - Breaking Bad Relational Patterns (Donald Miller)

Episode Date: May 17, 2024

In this interview, Pastor Steven Furtick speaks candidly with author and speaker Donald Miller about relationships.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, this is Stephen Ferdick. I'm the pastor of Elevation Church, and this is our podcast. I wanted to thank you for joining us today. Hope this inspires you. Hope it builds your faith. Hope it gives you perspective to see God is moving in your life.

Enjoy the message. I am here with New York Times best-selling author, Don Miller, entrepreneur, Don Miller, husband, Don Miller. I loved the book Scary Close. Thank you. In fact, I read this book two times and second time reading it. It was just as powerful as the first time. And I thought it would be cool for us to talk about some of the things that you said in the book

that resonated so deeply with me about intimacy. Well, the book is about intimacy. Yeah, it's about the fear of, overcoming the fear of and the challenges to have intimacy. And you kind of talk about the enemies through the limbs of your own. crisis of intimacy. So I love how you start the book. You're such a vulnerable author. You know, I've told you I love your books.

And I like how right at the beginning of the book, you're in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. Right. And you say I had to deal with my hang-ups or whatever you called them. You basically had to deal with your dysfunction. So take us into that moment. So I got married at 42. It was never married before.

Dated a bunch and had some great dating relationships. and some that were just no good. And they were no good, really, my fault. I had this pattern that I would date a gal. I would basically kind of come in as the rescuer kind of guy. There's this triangle that psychologists talk about that rescuers are attracted to victims, but then when they get into relationships with them,

they resent them. And then they begin to get angry because they resent the fact they're in a relationship with a victim. And so they begin to oppress them, which further makes them a victim. It's a really weird loop that people can get into. And I found myself into that a couple times. And the last time I was in that in my late 30s, I broke off an engagement.

I'd taken it so far that we had gotten engaged and then got out of it. And great gal, but it was probably the most damage that I'd caused sort of somewhat emotionally. And had some friends just come to me and say, man, you know, had good enough friends that they would come to me and say, this is a pattern. And you've got to figure this out. And so I kind of went into a dark place, thought, all right, I'm never going to get. married. I'm bad for people and blah, blah, blah, and all that kind of stuff. And my buddy Bob would call me every once in a while, and he would just remind me, you know, you're actually good at relationships. Think about this one. Think about, you know, your friendships. You're good at it.

You just got to figure this thing out. And he kind of helped me through this season of, you know, just in relationship, because my career was going great. And, you know, these weren't like moral failing kind of stuff. You know, it was just, it was just like codependency and all this stuff that I even know existed. And ended up at a place called OnSight Workshops, which is a, it's a, it's kind of a therapeutic retreat center outside of Nashville, about an hour outside of Nashville. And in seven days, you're supposed to get nine months of therapy. And all my songwriter friends loved going there and helped them with their career. And I thought, well, I'll go. And it was eye-opening. I mean, they explained so many of the things, the patterns that I had in my relationships that were

causing dysfunction and causing her pain and me pain and, and came out of there. And it's not like I was fixed, but I knew what was wrong and could start building healthier relationships. And then right after that, not right of that, about a year after that, Betsy and I met, and I was scared to death because I thought, you know, I really like this girl. I really do feel different. I feel like I've healed a lot and transformed and change. But I don't know if, I just, I hope it's true.

I hope I don't blow this one too. And we kept getting to know each other. She's this really healthy, amazing gal. Started dating, and I moved to D.C. for about eight months to court her, if you will, or whatever. And just, it never became dramatic. And I'm like, wow, it's possible. Like, you can actually transform as a human being. And so it came time to write another book,

and the publisher was kind of calling me and saying, what's it going to be on? I thought, I think I'll start with this falling apart and end with this wedding. And, you know, that's a beautiful story. And so that's what the book has come out. I mean, did you really get to a point of thinking, I am bad for people? Yes. Yeah.

I think there's, you know, some of it was stuff that I needed to work on. You know, stuff that, you know, not bad for people, but bad in this context of relationship. Something's going on. And I'm not leaving these people better than I found them. Is that because you're so good at being on a stage or writing? Was it hard for you to... Yeah, there's a little bit of my personality that, you know, I really pride myself on being authentic and vulnerable.

And I realized that part of me priding myself on being authentic and vulnerable was going into a cabin for six weeks in writing something that made me look very authentic and vulnerable. Well, that's the least authentic and vulnerable thing in the world. That's acting. Polished, vulnerability. Yeah, you're acting like you're not an actor. We could call that the veneer of vulnerability.

Veneer of vulnerability. Want to say it like a preacher. So, but anytime we're hiding anything, it's all about fear. Fear of being owned, fear of being rejected, fear of all that kind of stuff. And that's all intimacy is. It's just, is trusting somebody else to hopefully not hurt you. It's all it is And fear of intimacy is just like

That person could hurt me And so I had to learn Not to do that And Betsy proved to be the most Amazing companion And I mean The first time we went out

I laid it all out Can you imagine like the very first You know Date if you will You're like yeah I just got out of like Psychological Rehab Because I've wrecked so many girls' lives And it's been really hard

And I told myself I wouldn't date for six months and now six months is over and I'd love to date you. And what kind of... I think Holly would have excused herself. Betsy sounds like a special she would be. Well, I think Betsy had been, it was such like guys who would never say that. She thought, all right, I'll give you a month. You know, give you a month.

And then it just turned into something really healthy and good. Yeah, it was like endearing to her that you would say that. Yeah, I just think it wasn't a move. I mean, it really wasn't a play, right? It wasn't a move. No, it was like if you're going to get into this, you've got to know not been. great at this in the past, but I really want to be.

Yeah, I told the church in one of the messages that I preached in this series, the other half, you know, a great dating line that I read somewhere. If you want to get a really good dating line that predicts the success of marriage, it would be. So, what kind of crazier are you? Because I know you're some category of crazy. What time? That's exactly that. But you had to find out what the fear was.

If fear is the enemy of vulnerability, do I understand you correctly to say that, ultimately all of our intimacy is kept at bayed by fear? Well, I think so. I think there's a lack of trust that, you know, fear leads us to not trust somebody. Lack of trust leads us to not expose ourselves to somebody. And that lack of exposure means we're not going to be known. You know, I think we're really great. A lot of us are really great at letting people know and being impressed by our,

act by the character that we put on. And it feels so good. It's like, well, if I do this thing, you know, it works. You call it a costume in the book. It's a costume. Yeah. And that isn't fulfilling. Now, here's the thing. Everybody watching goes, I don't have that. And I would have told you, I don't have that. I would have told you that. The thing about going to this place on site is you turn in your cell phone, you can't give anybody your last name, and you're not allowed to tell anybody what you do for a living. I thought, fine, whatever. And I mean, Stephen, within 10 minutes, I wanted to tell somebody that I was the best selling. Because the reality is, it would have come up by now. Yeah. And now I can't bring it up. And I mean, the first three days

were I felt like, I felt naked. I mean, it really was saying, will anybody get to know me and want to be my friend for just me. And then it was amazing. One night my little group, about 40 people at the workshop, but there were 10 people in my little groups broke up in small groups. And we had a game in the parlor over at the, you know, big house. And it was a game night. We're playing games.

And we're all like a night four. So, you know, I'm kind of comfortable with people. They're comfortable with me. But nobody knows what anybody does. And nobody knows who anybody is. And I crack a joke. And everybody starts laughing. And I crack another joke.

And every, I mean, I had them rolling. And it was like a drug was going into my, because what it was, what it was, you matter now. Like, you're dominating the room. You're entertaining. You matter. Like, if I can never be a Christian writer again, I'll just start up a new career as a comedian.

And what was amazing is they took away my costume, and it took me four days to start building another costume. Four days. So I still went, I don't trust. that people aren't gonna like me for who I actually am. I think that's an understandable thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a great entertainer. The last thing we want is Steve Martin not being a great entertainer

because we won't have a chance to laugh or you on stage. We won't have a chance to be inspired by your sermon. The problem is when we use that as a costume and we bring it into intimate situations, and, you know, that's got a real short shelf life. just can't hide who you are for that long. Sooner or later, you got to go, all right, hear my flaws. You're still going to like me. And I think there's two things. One, we have to show those flaws, and two, we have to choose people who we can trust to actually follow through and like you. So you have to choose, because there's a significant part of the population that literally will go, nope.

Where did that come from for you, the need to wear that armor, to wear that costume, to be funny? Well, I hope it's just a human thing, and it's not just me. right, but you would have to go. It's just you. You know, there's a funny passage in Genesis when the fall is described, like the fall of man. You know, Eve eats the apple, Adam eats the apple. And in that passage, God comes back and he talks to this couple

who have disobeyed him. And that whole passage is about one thing. Because I think it's repeated four times. There's one theme to that chapter. And it's, who told you you were? were naked. And there's this idea that here is the only human beings in the history of the world so far who walked with God one-on-one. And if you walk with God one-on-one, you're that close. There's no separation between you. The only thing I can think is that there's something about this

external character that is pouring so much love and acceptance into you, just by their presence, that you are so not self-aware. because you're so fulfilled with their love, you don't even know you're naked. Now, I don't know about you, but when I'm naked, I know I'm naked. There's never a point where I'm like, wait, I think I'm naked.

Like, I always know. I never get to the grocery store and think, oh, I left my wife. Oh, I left my clothes. It never happens. That's a weird phenomenon. We're the only creatures on the planet who do that. Wow.

The only ones. Nobody else, like I saw a poodle in the park that they wearing a sweater, and I thought it happened to them. Like some poodle ate an apple and now they're wearing clothes. But it's not, you know, what is it about a separation from God that makes us so unbelievably narcissistic and self-aware and afraid that we would cover ourselves?

So I think clothes are literally, they're built around shame. I'm not telling you everybody. What are you advocating? I'm not advocating that at all. I don't know what kind of interview you think to see. There's all these other clothes that we wear, too. You know, personality traits that we've learned, skills that we've developed. And we put on those, you know, to hide whatever vulnerability or hard thing we have.

That is the enemy of intimacy. I love when the guy in the book sat down and drew some circles for you. He said, hey, basically, I'm going to tell you why you need to be funny. And he did this thing. Do the thing because to me it was very profound. He said, he's a guy named Bill Loki. And Bill's a great psychologist. And he said, he just drew a circle.

And he said, Don, here's how everybody starts. They start as a self. And he wrote the word self inside the circle. And then he said, something happens at a different age for everybody, but it's at a young age. And he said, something happens, you know, you mess up on the baseball field or your parents get a divorce or you realize that your family's on food stamps, you know, and you got a crush on the guy who's dad's president of the bank, you know, whatever. And he said, that brings for the first time in your life something called shame. And he said, so you draw us, he drew a second circle around the first circle. And it just said shame.

And we've all felt it. all remember it, you know, the first time you probably experienced that. And he said, what happens is shame is really scary. And so he drew a third circle around the shame circle. And he just wrote the word costume. And he said, you know, you learn to wear this thing. And it was the thing that you, you know, and he said, you know, it was that characteristic that you had that you found that other people would clap for you or whatever, that they admired you for it. And he said, what would that be? I mean, he didn't have to finish sense. And I said, smart, funny, you know, these sorts of things.

The things that people would say about me, you know, if they got to know me, they're saying those things because they got said about me really early on, and I've just honed my craft and my ability to wear that costume. And he said, this is all totally understandable. Like no judgment against anybody who tries to cover their pain with shame. It's pain, right? You see, the problem is, in order to have intimacy, that person, are those people, friends, whatever, they got to get to know the self because you can't have intimacy with the costume

and you can't have intimacy with the shame. Wow. So you've got to take off the costume and you got to deal with the shame. And then you can be free to be yourself. And then you can have intimacy. What intimacy does is it nurtures us, it recharges us, it gives us strength, it gives us to be able to be honest, it gives us ability to connect with other people, makes us great husbands and wives, makes us great husbands and wives, makes us great.

great parents, helps us have happy kids and healthy kids, contributes to that. And it's also how we connect with God, right? I mean, we connect with God. God's not impressed with our costume. He's impressed with ourselves. That's the part he made, right? And we made these other things. I love that. I preached on Jacob one time. And Jacob is, of course, you know, dressing in Esau's clothes, pretending to be his brother to get the blessing. And it works. Kind of. It's just the weirdest story. Weirdest story.

Weirdest story that his mom's dressing him and his brothers, and these are little boys anymore. These are older men, you know, at this point in their life. But I came to the realization that God can't bless who I pretend to be. Yet the things you mentioned, smart, funny, these aren't bad things. No. So where does it go from being a gift that I'm smart, that I'm funny, to being something that becomes a costume?

How do I know the difference? Well, I think when you're covering yourself up, when there are hidden things about you. I want to be real careful. You know, standing up on stage and airing all your dirty laundry is unwise. Yeah. There are people who are simply out to get you, right?

Or sitting on a date and sharing from the beginning all of your... It is unwise. Then I'm six months out of rehab. That's right. Well, it worked for me. You know, not everybody gets access to yourself. Yourself is valuable. You know, it should be protected.

But I think when nobody gets access, that's where there's a lot of trouble. And the trouble starts with just real loneliness. You know, that's what it feels like at first. So you would caution against either extreme to say that if everyone has access, that's a problem, if nobody has access. That's right. And a lot of people have the act of, like we talked about earlier,

vulnerability or, you know, and they tend to become kind of a shock jock or whatever. And it's a bit of a turnoff at some point because people realize that's a costume, like that person was just doing it. So, you know, but I think. think, you know, when you really look at phenomenally successful folks, there's always, almost always a wound that started that journey. And hopefully the wounds started the journey and then there was a healing also. So they got the benefit of that fuel of becoming really funny and famous or really

smart and solving problems in physics or whatever. And then hopefully at some point there was a healing process where they were able to enjoy the gift that they were given but also find intimacy. And I I feel like that's been my journey. It's been a real blessed journey in that way, but there was certainly a dark season. No, that's really powerful. When you talk about the relational pattern, you say, my dating life was a death spiral of codependency and resentment. I wouldn't say that about you, but you said that about you. All right.

So if anybody, first of all, feels like there's no hope for you, here's a happily married man who says, my dating life was a death spiral. If someone resonates with that in their dating life, relational life, how do they break that pattern? What is one thing I can do? Because I'm overwhelmed by a death spiral. What's the first move out of the death spiral? Well, I have to go back and say there were probably a few women I'd say that you could talk to and say, that was great. Give me a break.

It wasn't that bad, but there were some relationships that were really tender. This counselor at Onside during this time gave me this great analogy. She said, okay, look, she put three pills. on the floor, like a couch pillows, you know, that people could stand on. And three pillows. And she said, okay, Don, you stand on this pillow. And then she had some other representative of our group, stand on this pillow. She goes, okay, those are your pillows.

They represent yourself, right? Now, let's say this person is really frustrating you in the relationship. Your temptation is to cross the middle pillow and get onto their pillow and try to change them. She said, that's codependency. She said, that's not your pillow. That's their pillow. Now, what's the middle pillow mean? And she said, the middle pillow is the relationship.

So you both agree that you are going to step on the middle pillow and have a relationship. And both of you get equal say in what you want that relationship to look like. So everything is really about the relationship. But as soon as she steps over on my pillow and says, I don't want you to be this kind of man or whatever, that's not what she should be saying. That's not what I should say. What we should both be saying is, is this the kind of relationship that I want? So rather than going over here and saying, I'm going to try.

I go, is this the kind of relationship that I want? If not, I step back on my pillow and I get out of the relationship. But at no point do I ever get on her pillow. That's codependency. And of course, when you make that commitment in a marriage, you're saying, whatever this relationship becomes, I'm in. I've done due diligence here. And I think we're going to be okay, but there's no guarantee.

But I'm never going to step on this person's pillow. I was codependent. I was all over this person's pillow. Right? I want you to be this so that we can have a good relationship. And it just never worked. It never worked. And now, I mean, you know, who knows, 10 years I'll probably figure out some other flaw that I have in relationships. But Betts and I just don't try to change each other. We've never tried to change each other. So get off the other person's pillow.

Just get off the other person's pillow. Touch three people and say, get off my pillow. And I'll tell you this. It's driving you crazy trying to change that person. Yeah. If the relationship isn't working, if the dating relationship isn't working, even if the business relationship isn't working, and you're all over their pillow, and they're all over your pillow, get out. Get some health for yourself.

They can get some help for yourself. And then ask yourself, I want somebody that we both love standing on that pillow. Do you agree with this? I was sharing in one of the weeks of this series about the magnifying glass and the mirror, and both are tools in marriage because you choose what you magnify. but sometimes when it comes to the issues in a relationship, marriage or friendship, put down the magnifying glass, pick up the mirror. I think that's the essence of what Jesus was saying with the speck in your eye. You've got a plank in your eye and there's a speck in his eye.

In terms of taking responsibility in a relationship, you say pretty strongly in the book that the human longing can't be met in another person. the real human longing can't be met through another person, can't be fulfilled through a human relationship. Whenever I preach about relationships, people who may not be married in the church, kind of look at their watches. How many weeks is this thing going to go on? Because you're going to tell me, I don't need somebody, and you have a wife and all of that. But, you know, you did a lot in your life before getting married. So you're 42 years old when you got married. And you had accomplished a lot. You wrote a book that was read hundreds of thousands of times and you made kind of an impact on the world. Would you speak to that now as someone who maybe has the credibility to say, I went through that

season and I accomplished some things and I dealt with the loneliness. What is your perspective on what you call the unfulfilled longing? Well, I'll say this. My years being single were, you know, I don't want to paint them as dark. They were fantastic. I traveled the world and got all sorts of stuff done and probably stuff that I wouldn't have been able to do if I were married because I was just devoted to work and all that kind of stuff. So they were fantastic. So anybody who's single listening just have a blast. I mean, and get some work done because that's going to slow down real quick, especially when you have kids, right? Yes. But I will say this. Yes. In terms of, you know, you can't be fulfilled by another person. I agree with that.

That is true that only God can ultimately fulfill us. But I also believe, You know, there's this myth that Jesus will fulfill every longing of our heart. I do believe that, ultimately at the wedding feast of the land, and even in today, but here's how he does it. Jesus fulfills the longing for water and thirst with water, right? Yeah. Jesus fulfills the longing for food with food. I love that. Jesus fulfills the longing for friends with friends.

Keep going, man. Jesus fulfills the longing for a woman. and guess what? With a woman. So all of that is how Jesus does it. So here's what's beautiful about, you know, God is walking with Adam. God is walking with Adam. There is no sin. So Adam should be completely and totally fulfilled if God fulfills every desire. But what does God say of Adam? He's not complete for men to be alone. It's not good for man to be alone. He's lonely. Well, how can he be lonely if God fulfills every desire of the human? I'll tell you why. because God put another desire in that guy's chest for a woman.

Awesome. And he withheld the woman. And you say, okay, well, then he gave him Eve. No, he didn't. God said, you're lonely. You cannot find a help made suitable. Here's what I want you to do. Name the animals.

Now, Pastor Stephen, if you were charged with naming the animals, we all have told it in a children's way that it's going to be an afternoon in which you say giraffe, monkey, whatever. Even Darwin on the Galapagos Island took years just to chart a small microcosm of the species. I think 10 years to 100 years of no woman, period. So this longing, he didn't just take the longing and fulfill it, he took the longing and made it worse. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, made it worse.

Wow. Literally made the man wait and work. Then he gives, of course, he puts Adam to sleep. as the story goes, takes from Adam a rib and makes Eve. Adam wakes up and sees Eve, and it's the very first place in the scriptures where you see an ancient form of Hebrew poetry called parallelism.

It's as though the text has broken into song. So here he sees this woman, and he says, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. He broke into song when he saw her. Why did he do that? I'll tell you why he did that, because God made him wit and named the animals. He had to work for it,

and he had to feel that longing. And, you know, what I love about, you know, I don't want to discredit my wife because she's an amazing woman. But I guarantee you one of the reasons I cherish my wife is because it was 42 years of naming animals. And you think I'm going to mess this up after 42 years? Wow. And so I think that's one of the problems with sort of quick transactional relationships is it doesn't give us the chance to build up the desire which is embedded in pain. we tend to think pain or loneliness is a bad thing, like you did something wrong. Pain or loneliness is a gift from God to help us appreciate what eventually would be given to us when

He blesses us. You know the people who are hurting from loneliness are hearing that right now. And I hope they're comforted. I hope so too. Yeah, I hope they're comforting. I know what the enemy is going to tell them about that, though. It applies to other people, but not to you, you know, that other people, maybe their loneliness is by design, but what you're going through, you caused it.

There's something flawed and wrong about you. Because we will always believe that we're the exception to whatever gifts God wants to give. And I just, I love this picture that you're painting for us right now that God allows the void and sometimes creates the void so that he can fill it with himself. Now, that doesn't mean that God is going to withhold every good perfect gift comes from above and all of that. We believe it. but you're on the other side of this now saying,

I wouldn't have known what to do with it, and I wouldn't have known how to cherish it if I hadn't had to wait for it. My wedding day was the happiest day of my life. I mean, it just didn't, I was never sure it was going to happen, and we didn't rush into it. I mean, we took a long time and dated and, you know, did all that stuff.

But that stuff has to be earned. You can't, you know, you just can't rush a climactic scene. You can't rush it in a social. story. You have to have the tension. If you don't have the tension, the climactic scene is going to be a dud. You know what I like? We don't think of our flaws as the glue that binds us to the people we love, but they are. Grace only sticks to our imperfections. That's cool. Isn't that true in relationships that you get to know somebody and it's like the fifth or six time to hang out with them? And they just share some sort of insecurity and you suddenly feel closer to them. Yeah. You suddenly feel... Because you think it's

going to drive them away and all of a sudden you find out the thing that you are trying to hide. Yeah. And you can't use it as a strategic tool. It has to be sincere. Right? We can't go. Well, I'm going to be vulnerable in order to, you know, you smell that out. Yeah. But what happens in those things, I think, is that essentially between you and I, what happens when I'm vulnerable and it creates a bond between us is in our relationship, what I've done by being vulnerable is I've handed you a gun. I've literally handed you a weapon. Because by being vulnerable,

you now have information that you can use to hurt me. So what I did was I just gave you power in the relationship. And when I give you power in the relationship, it makes you more comfortable. And you think, you know, I'm never going to use this gun, but I really like this guy because he's not holding anything. And honestly, if he does anything to me,

you know? Maybe. So I wonder about, like, in our marriages, you know, my wife has so much, many weapons to use against me. I mean, she could literally, in one sentence or one paragraph, calls me five years of very dark pain. She's got that. And you know how good it feels that she never uses it? It just increases my trust in God, in the world, in the existence of love, and all that kind of stuff. And I've got stuff on her. I mean, I know what she'd be afraid of and those kinds of

things and I could play those games and, man, I would never do that. We are at the most loving truce, right? So here we are. Imagine us just hugging each other and there's all these weapons just laid down behind us. And we're not going to pick them up. It's kind of the picture of our relationship with God then, isn't it? Absolutely. Because if anybody has their finger on the nuclear button that could blow the whole thing up, it's him. And he's not going to do it. Not only is he not going to do it, but he's going to sacrifice himself so that we don't have to be destroyed. That's right. That's beautiful, man. Okay, I could talk to you about this all day, but I want to kind of finish with a thought,

I'm not saying this is deep, but you end your book talking about kind of the beginning of your marriage. How long have you been married now? Three years. Three years in November. How would the book end differently if you were ending it today than it ended two years ago? Well, you know, we'd spent the first year of marriage.

Both of us kind of circling each other. It was really hilarious. And we just kept, Bess and I can talk about anything. So we just kept talking about, when is the other shoe going to drop? Like, when is this going to go south? Yeah. It has to. Like, it just can't be.

Then we had this real beautiful paradigm shift of what if God is good? Like, what if God just says, I actually want you to be happy? Like, it was my whole design was that you guys would be. Not every day is going to be perfect. Betsy and I will argue sometimes. So we've just made this commitment that Betsy and I are going to keep the drama outside of the marriage. Yeah, cool. So we did this thing.

before we got married, I wrote down a marriage plan. I actually took a 90-day business plan. I was at a business conference and crossed out the word business and wrote the word marriage. I just thought it would be fun. She's just so attractive. And I wrote, well, what's the theme, right? And I wrote, well, we want to have a restorative marriage.

And I just put down these principles. I took a picture of it to her. She was actually mad at me that day. And I took a picture up to it, and I texted it to her. And then I felt like, oh, she's going to kill me. Like, literally, I just turned our marriage into a business strategy. Like, we're going to have franchise. our kids, right?

And she emailed back, she done this is exactly what I needed to hear. And it was because we were in a place where I was taking her from her friends, I was taking her from her career, and all she was, she was so freaked out because she was just like,

where are you taking me? You're taking me to a wedding, but I don't know what's on the other side of that wedding. So this little document, just saying, here's what we're going to be. So we made this decision before we got married that we would have a restorative marriage.

Now that can change, we can change the theme of our marriage, but we haven't yet. And we're three years, then what that meant for us is when you walk in the door of our home when betsy walks in the door or i walk in the door we have an agreement life is hard things outside this door these doors are difficult and when you walk through these doors we will recharge each other we will so no unkind words love it i'm here to restore you know stephen we will encounter very difficult times we will it

it's not going to keep going like this there's going to be painful stuff and i'm not naive uh god will get us through that and he will redeem that story just like he redeemed these stories. Now, the difference is I'll go into those painful times, hopefully with more trust. And you know what? He brought me through the last one. He'll bring us through this one. We're going to be okay. Bob told you you were great at relationships. Do you believe him now? I believe him more than I did at the time. And that's kind of how the book ends, because the last time he said it to me, he would say it every month or so for years, two to three years.

and he actually did our wedding. And the last time he said it to me, he's never said it since, you know, he just looked at me and said, Don, you're good at relationships. Proof. You know, here's your wedding, proof. And I think we need those friends, don't we? Just to keep going, hey, man, you're lying to yourself. You're lying to yourself.

I know you screwed up, but you're lying to yourself. Yeah. Don't believe that. Yeah. Thanks, man. Thank you for joining us. Special thanks to those of you who give generously to this ministry is because of you that this ministry is possible.

You can click the link in the description to give now or visit Elevationchurch.org slash podcast for more information. And if you enjoyed the podcast, you can subscribe, you can share it with your friends. You can click the share button, take a screenshot, and share it on your social stories and tag us at Elevation Church. Thanks again for listening. God bless you. This is an IHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.