Embedded - 11: Tell Me I'm Wrong, It's Fine

Episode Date: July 25, 2013

Karen Lightman (‏@khlightman) joins Elecia White to talk about the infinite awesomeness of tiny MEMS devices. Recorded at the (somewhat noisy but lovely and delicious) Blue Brasserie during SEMICON West. Karen is the Executive Director of the MEMS Industry Group, the nonprofit trade association advancing MEMS across global markets. This the group that wrote the standard definitions that make MEMS easier to use, see the Resources section of their website. MEMS Executive Congress in Napa, Nov 7-8. Please bring new MEMS devices to the pitch event (Elecia is a judge!).  They mentioned some ignorance of RF MEMS, looks like someone need to read this book. Energy harvesting kits we discussed were from MicroGen. They have a neat youtube video. Redux of the Feynman's There's More Room at the Bottom  lecture.

I am Elysia White, and you are listening to Making Embedded Systems, the show for people who love gadgets. My co-host today is Karen Lightman, Executive Director of the MEMS Industry Group. We're on site at Semicon West in San Francisco, California. Hi, Karen. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Elysia. It's really great to be here.

Great to see you again. So why are we here? Well, we're here A, because it's beautiful here in San Francisco, but Semicon West is actually a really great show for bringing together the equipment folks who make the equipment that semiconductor and the MEMS industry is you know breathes on that so that they the chips that the semiconductor and MEMS and in photovoltaics and solar as well all the equipment that they're based on is showcased here at Semicon West in the United States. This is the biggest show in North America for that industry. And it's the historic leader. Now they have shows all over the globe.

And we've been coming here. Mems and Shgrup has been coming here probably for, gosh, nine years or so. And I don't know how many years I've been coming here, but let's say a lot. I thought of you at lunch recently. I was talking about the show we did about accelerometers with Randy. And I got caught up with the excitement of all of the MEMS sensors and gyros and accelerometers and magnetometers. And my lunch partner very quietly stopped me and asked what MEMS meant. M-E-M-S.

And I knew that if this experienced embedded engineer really didn't know about this completely awesome topic, we should talk about it. And you are very involved with MEMS. What is the MEMS Industry Group? Well, the MEMS industry group, we were founded in 2001. And we were founded initially with DARPA money, actually, from DOT. I'm not going to spell out the acronym because I'm hoping the intelligent audience that you have here knows

what DARPA stands for. If not, they can look it up. Defense something, something, something. Advanced Research Project Agency. So we were started with DARPA money, and it started out almost like, hey, we get together, we talk about MEMS because there's applications in defense and in commercial applications. Let's talk about it and do a report because there's similarities.

And they wanted to have an organization, a nonprofit group, to, like, somebody should really organize this. Okay, well, Ken Gabriel and John Seely Brown of Xerox Park, Xerox, actually, at the time, formed the organization. Five companies put in a bunch of money into a kitty, and they started off. now we're at 150 companies and we're the mem supply chain so it's the companies that are the device manufacturers the equipment and materials foundries where those beautiful devices are made and all the people who

supply that and importantly folks like you and listeners, those are the integrators and the end users that are making those products smarter, faster, more able to leap over tall buildings using MEMS. Well, and now I've done it again because I completely failed to say what are MEMS. And I didn't tell you yet. And the acronym is microelectrical Electromechanical Systems. And it's a big S. It's a big S at the end. No M-E-M little S. No M.

It's all capitals. Yes. Because systems is what it ends with. Yes. And it's all together. M-E-M-S. And it's really important to remember that, and I say this, and sometimes people get offended, but MEMS by itself is just a dumb, lonely little chip. It's like a little bill

on top of Capitol Hill, but I won't sing right now. But honestly, I don't want to say dumb, but by itself, it is nothing. It is just a chip. It is nothing. It's when it is nothing it is just a chip it is nothing it's when it is with other other it's put in place it's packaged with something else it is an enabling technology it makes things smarter it makes things more efficient it provides more information, smarter information that could not be possible if but for MEMS. But by itself, like you're not going to buy an off-the-shelf MEMS and be like, here, I've got it. I've got the solution. By itself, it is nothing. It's put together within a package, integrated with sensors, integrated with other technologies.

That is what MEMS can do. I kind of thought it was an adjective, kind of like the word yellow. You never just have a yellow. You have a yellow accelerometer or a MEMS accelerometer. It's a sensor that is built using MEMS technology, the ability to get it really small. Or is there something beyond that? Tell me I'm wrong. It's fine.

MEMS is a state of being. I think that's actually a really interesting way to look at it. But I would say that yes and no. I mean, I think there are sensors that are non-MEMS, but you can find a MEMS that is not a sensor. Oh, absolutely. There are actuators and oscillators. But I think the point that I'm trying to make is MEMS by itself is nothing until it is

like you can have a MEMS accelerometer. Okay. But there is no MEMS by itself. I'd complete, we're in complete agreement about that. Okay. Got it. So that's, it's the descriptive. So I understand what you're saying. But my point is to, by itself, it is nothing. Even that MEMS accelerometer by itself, it can't do anything until it's packaged within a device to make that device smarter. And with the magnetometer, or, you know,

I'm sorry, not with the magnetometer, but I guess my, okay, where are you going to go with that, Alicia? So there used to be analog MEMS accelerometers, and then you'd have to put them into an ADC, and then the ADC would be connected to a processor. So those were still MEMS. They were still the microelectro... You're talking about accelerometers when they were in airbags?

No, no. Well, I mean, I've done lots of things with accelerometers. This is where you're getting a little technical with me. But I think by itself, I guess where I'm talking about it, it's the enabling. I guess we're talking, we're in agreement, but maybe my description of it is getting... No, no. You're the one that have MEMS in your title.

I'm certainly not. Yeah, I guess the adjective thing, I'm thinking, but by itself, it cannot do anything until it's packaged with something else, is the point I'm trying to get across. And that makes sense. So tell us what a whole packaged MEMS sensor would be like. What would it include? Let's stick with an accelerometer because we've already talked about that. Okay. Well, a MEMS accelerometer, again, it also depends on the application. That's where I would always go. That's where I think what's really unique about what the MEMS industry group is focused on, more like this, the MEMS industry group is really focused on is the application. It's not technology for the sake of technology.

It's where is the application? What is the application focus? Where is it going to be moving? Where is the application going to be used? Is it going to be used in an airbag? What kind of qualification standards Is it going to be used in an airbag? You know, what kind of qualification standards does it need to meet? You know, does it have to have life-saving, you know, qualification standards? Or is it going to be in an iPhone where, gee, it doesn't work? Well,

that's okay. Or a pedometer. That's okay. Because you have to have certain, it has to be really cheap. Or if it's going to be something that's going to have a life-saving application. Those are differences. So I think it's, I guess the answer is an accelerometer and the type of accelerometer that you're talking about,

always the application of that accelerometer is probably the most important first question. And where is that market? And so then you have to go to issues of, you know, where, sorry, where is it being packaged? And then where, what's the surrounding environment it's going into? Those kinds of questions. OK, so there are two big applications that, well, I mean, there are hundreds of applications for accelerometers. But let's travel two different paths so that we can talk about industrial and consumer. So for industrial, about a decade ago,

I worked on an inertial measurement unit. So it was accelerometers and gyros fused together with a GPS. And it would go into race cars. And we had so much fun testing this product. You cannot believe the excuse to go fast around a race course was really cool. So we'd put this in race cars and use this as part of the TV special effects. Knowing exactly where the race car is at all times allowed them to do some really cute things on the TV, including little arrows that was then subsequently made fun of in the Cars movie. There's nothing like seeing your product made fun of

to make you feel good. And so that was very industrial. There weren't really lives on the line, but getting it wrong was pretty bad and very public. Where lately I've been using one to build a pedometer, and you're right, the pedometer is a very consumer application. If you miss 10 steps, it really doesn't matter. For the most part, pedometers are hundreds of steps.

And there are some interesting error cases there where you might get a whole bunch of steps that you don't shouldn't because you just got them in the car or whatever. But that's kind of an end-user application and not a MEMS application. Some of the MEMS sensors do have embedded step counting, but the accelerometer part itself is just the little itty-bitty tiny structure that's kind of like a diving board, and it tells whether or not things have moved

right that's by definite that's actually exactly how i describe the mems i i when i i'm at a cocktail party or something i'll say you know what a semiconductor chip looks like and most people go uh-huh and then i say well imagine it with a little diving board. And I wiggle my finger up and down like a little diving board. I go, yeah, that's a MEMS resonator. That's a MEMS diving board. That's what makes it unique. And that's what makes it special. So it's that movement.

So the MEMS sensor and the more special the MEMS is. And also, let's not forget the algorithmic software that now is being packaged not only with the MEMS accelerometer, but it's also the algorithmic software. So people talk about sensor fusion and making the MEMS smarter. I'm seeing, and this is where I actually, I'm like, want to root for the little guy more and more, is I'm seeing, and this is where I actually want to root for the little guy more and more, is I'm seeing more innovation on that smaller companies like XSense that came out, and it's in Netherlands, and Muvia that's actually from CEA Letty, now they're in California as well, and sensor platforms and so on and so forth. There's a bunch of small, relatively startup companies that have spun out

that are working to make MEMS smarter by not just taking, it's not just the chip, but making the chip smarter. So it can interpret your steps and say, wait a minute, that lady isn't walking. She's driving a car. I'm going to take away those steps. She's not getting credit and those types of putting it together and having the software used to be when when i did the race

car over a decade ago that was all outside the sensor right we had little analog mem sensors they were still very cool but they were analog mem sensors and they went to an ADC and the Kalman filter and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then to giant, giant servers that would work it out with the video. And yet lately I played with another inertial system that all you had to do was ask it for the answer. And it had it all it all inside one little die, all inside one little chip, and you bought one component, and poof, you're done. So they're getting smarter. Yes, they are.

They're getting smarter, and the price point's coming down too. Oh, incredibly. Yeah. So you're going to see it more and more, and that's really exciting too. And that's partially because MEMS is done in silicon. Right. And silicon, you know, that's what we make our chips out of.

We're getting really good at manipulating that silicon dioxide layer that is what makes things happen. Right. And the DRIE, the process itself of the deep rayon ion etching. DRIE. I'm going to have to say it slowly, but that etching process of the silicon is opening up a whole new world. I mean, that process was developed maybe around the same time, like 10 years ago, and that has opened up a whole new realm of possibilities to use the silicon. So, you know, don't forget the equipment side of things. I mean, I think sometimes people say, oh, equipment is so boring.

I'm going to fall asleep now. But the equipment and manipulation of that silicon has opened up that and that cost reduction. So it's really exciting. And obviously, consumer applications, cost going down. Economies of scale. Oh, yes, that magic word. Yes. That's where the sensors that used to cost hundreds of dollars each now are packaged in a little thing with nine separate sensors and they

cost a hundred dollars total yep and that's just going to get better i think so and it's going to be in the consumer space it's going to be um it's going to be cut through and so you're going to you have to focus on differentiation so you're going to you're going to see companies you know these algorithm companies you know there's going to be you know which which not not only the chip but it's also the software which one is better at understanding and then also gathering all that data that's being generated from the mem sensor and the accelerometer magnetometerometer, you know, all these sensors all together, which is most intelligent in understanding the algorithmic

data and deciding, well, this little tidbit is the most important data. And different applications have different needs. If you're in a body moving very quickly, race car, you need to have everything sampled at exactly the same time. If you're using more of a pedometer sort of solution, you don't need that synchronous sampling. You can allow for other things. Your iPhone doesn't need to have your accelerometers and gyroscopes right in sync at the same time. Well, and actually on a related point is that the big issue is now that we're getting more and more sensors on, say, an iPhone or a handheld, think of all the power that's being drawn down on a device, and we still haven't

figured out that conundrum of energy, okay? So we also need, so not only is differentiation important, but it's also how to use these sensors intelligently and not draw down the power of the device. Because say you're walking, do you really need to know your location at all times? Or just every now and then when you're like, I'm going to know where the heck I am so I don't get lost. So that your GPS, magnetometer, you know, all these different sensors that you have in your device, they need to be intelligently using power, drawing down power when they're only really needed. And otherwise, they're in a latency mode but they all still need to be on all the time so that's that's like I was like really complicated and and no one has really figured that out very well they all say they do I'm telling

you they all like ST Bosch everybody says we're you know we're working on that and we're the smartest people around I mean everybody says they're gonna do that but I mean that is, truly the Holy grail. And then obviously energy harvesting. That yes, exactly. I mean, that would be one way to, to, to sort of cheat. You make an accelerometer and a gyro combination and you add a little bit of energy harvesting in there and you just don't tell anybody. And suddenly you have the, the cheapest or not cheapest energy efficient, a little sensor. It would be so cool. Oh, yeah.

And then we'd all retire. Yeah. Okay, let's patent that right now. Yes. Yes. And then we'll sue whoever does the amount for that. The true American way. No, no.

Sorry. That was a joke. So how do the energy harvesting sensors work? Do you know? Well, they're not sensors. Right, right. They're not sensors work? Do you know? Well, they're not sensors. Right, right. They're not sensors. Just so you know,

they're piezo-electromechanical little devices that work on vibration. So there's a company that is called Microgen Systems, and they are actually, in my knowledge, the first company to actually there's well first company there are research institutions that are doing this this is the first company and they're fabricating it and they are they have a device that is able to buy its self-powered micro, you know, self-powered energy harvesting, send out an LED

light. So it has enough energy to send out a light of the sensor. So it's not a lot. But it's a start, sweetheart. And in time, it could be much more. But it's

a start. It's the first time it's ever been done, and it's tiny. I'm making a size of a quarter. It's very small. I mean, the chip is even smaller than that, but they actually have a device with LED, and the whole microdevice is very, very small. And it just harvests vibrational technology. Like they have an example of putting it on top of a microwave,

and just the vibration of the microwave like popping popcorn can fuel that. And it's just beep, beep, beep. Vibration happens all the time. Our hearts are vibrating. I'm walking. Being in the car at that point

you do get electric credit for that. And I think the next thing will be tire pressure like in tires you know like tire pressure monitoring systems i think that's actually where we're going to see the next um uh commercialization of you know think about you have so you have your little gauge in your tire saying that your tires are flat or they're flattening or you need air lady go to the you know the get-go or whatever you have your gas station and get some air in your tires

there's a battery in there that they hope will outlast your tire oh and it hasn't i have a prius with one of those and i according to, my tires have been dead for years, and I've never, I can't get to the battery. But so this energy harvesting could easily solve that, because I only want to know about my tire pressure when I'm moving, and then there's plenty of movement. And actually, you only want to know when there's a problem. That's the other part.

That's true. So it can monitor all the time, and that's a low-energy thing, and then only report the high- energy wireless sort of thing. Absolutely. And wireless is really critical. I don't understand how you'd get wireless in MEMS. Is that, I mean, to me, wireless is all about the antenna and that's where most of the power is taken. I could be totally wrong on that. That's a good question. But there's, well, that's another, that's a question for another day. Because I know there's, well, there's RF MEMS that opens up all new frequency of MEMS, of a radio frequency that's MEMS.

And those are actual MEMS antenna. And a lot of the Samsung phones, Samsung Galaxy phones, actually have RF MEMS made by a company called YSprite. But I don't know enough about it to really tell you about it. And another company called DeSera that's doing... And a couple of companies that are looking into this area. It's sort of an untapped area of RF MEMS, but it's a different type of using of antenna that opens up more,

like can you hear me now? It's a cleaner band. But that's not an entire pressure. We're not talking about that. That's something different. Yeah, but with, I mean, the wireless thing, that's a question. We'll skip that one and put it in the show notes.

We'll come back to that one. That's a really good question. You're so smart. So the sensors, accelerometers, rate sensors or gyros or whatever you want to call them today, temperature sensors, magnetometers. Yeah. Rate sensors or gyros or whatever you want to call them today. Temperature sensors. Yep.

Magnetometers. Humidity. Well, a magnetometer is a funny thing about magnetometers. Because technically, magnetometers are not MEMS by themselves. However, they are created using the same processes as MEMS, often on the same line as MEMS. And they are often placed within the same little family as the Excel gyro with the magnetometer. Well, that's the inertial suite. Yes.

But in what way are they not MEMS? Are they not micro? Are they not electromechanical enough? They're not mechanical. There's no moving part. So I have these very, I get quizzed all the time. Well, technically, a magnetometer is not MEMS because it doesn't have a mechanical part.

I'm like, thank you. Thank you so much. Can we go back to our regular scheduled program now? So microelectrico systems. It doesn't really flow off. Electromagnetic. And then it can still be MEMS. I know.

We've got to come up with new names. That's why MEMS has never taken off. Because it's hard to say that acronym. Oh, yes. Who came up with this? But the cool part is the micro. I mean, I think you could just stop there. The whole electromechanical part is just kind of...

Well, the Germans just call it microsystems. Yes. And tiny machines. And there are a couple other names for it that are, I mean, it's nanotechnology. We read books about sci-fi books, and it's nanotechnology. Well, that's so much fun. But this is real nanotech. And the thing that's confusing, too, is, well, much of nanotechnology is based on MEMS, based on MEMS processing,

and sometimes they say it's nano, it's actually MEMS. Well, and that's because MEMS isn't necessarily micro in the way that we think about systems. It isn't micro in the way that you say micrometers. Although things are based on micrometer sizes. We're talking microns, micrometers, tiny, tiny bits. About the size of a human hair is the whole sensor. Right. And not my hair, not your hair, but like a baby's hair. Yeah. And the thing about MEMS as well, there's only so small you can go, right? Because like think of a DLP, a micromirror from DLP. By the law of physics,

you cannot bend light when you're too small. So an actuator, a DLP actuator, digital light projection micromirror, it can't be so small that it can't refract light. And even with placing sensors, there is a lower bound on that. And it has again to do with light and the boundaries it places upon us. At some point, you can't use light because when you try to move the molecules from one place to another to build your sensor,

it's like your fingers, your light fingers are too fat to be able to grip the little tiny molecules. So there is a bottom limit until we get into electron tunneling microscopes and really, really freakishly cool science fiction. And there's an area called NEMS, which is sort of bridging that. And we're not going to go there today either. I'd like to see some equations on how the NEMS work. Yeah sort of bridging that. And we're not going to go there today either. I'd like to see some equations on how the NEMS work. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Alicia. I'll be right back.

She's going to escape. Yeah. I think I hear my mother calling. So you mentioned displays. But these aren't like OLED displays and they're not LCD displays. These are different displays. Tell me about them. Okay.

So, well, have you seen a movie recently in the theater? The Avengers. Oh, yeah? And then we saw Iron Man 3. Ah, yeah. That was fun. My daughter took my husband, or the other way around because she can't drive yet. I imagine if you saw it in 3D or you saw it in a digital light projection by Sony, you experienced DLP brought to you by Texas

Instruments. The movie was really big, but DLP is really small. Yes. And that's the beauty of the micromirrors, is that it's actually projected with gorgeous detail through thousands and thousands of micromirrors. And it's revolutionized the way that we project images from our projectors in our offices when we're giving a PowerPoint presentation to where we're seeing it in the movies. And that's the, actually, they are one of the top,

if you look at the number one and number two and number three manufacturers of MEMS, TI is oftentimes number one or number two with its digital eye projection because there's a lot of movie theaters in the world and Sony is their, you know, Sony. And then there's, you know, projectors as well. And then Pico projection is going to be the next new wave where from your iPhone, you're going to be having your own movie

at your own home where you can download from iTunes and then show in your bedroom Iron Man 3 in just as beautiful quality and put on your 3D glasses and have some fun. And it won't be the huge, huge power suck that the current Pico, quote, Pico projectors are. Absolutely not. Because MEMS means small. Right.

And small means more power efficient than big. Right. Maybe not super power efficient yet, but more power efficient. It'll use less energy. It'll be a smaller real estate, smaller form factor. And what an exciting area that I think is really,

really cool and slightly frightening, sort of like Tron-esque, is heads-up displays. Have you ever heard of that? Well, of course, there's the Google Glass. No, but this is like when you're driving. Oh, yes. Some of the super fancy cars have those. Yeah.

And they project onto the windshield. Your directions. Yes, your directions. Or at nighttime, they'll try to keep you in the lane. Yeah, it's brilliant. I think it's freakish. And I'm not sure how, I mean, I think it's exciting

and I think it's great. And I mean, it's amazing what the technology can do. I'd like to see more people like you and your listeners experimenting with this stuff. And like, not for expensive, like 55 year old, 65 year old men in

their Cadillacs but like someone like you and me like I'm lost all the time I'm a mom with two kids who has to I'm always late for something I'm always lost like I have to get my kids to a swim meet and it started five minutes ago help me get to to this place. You know, like, how can this help me? Because, like, Google Maps has failed me. You know, like, I need something, like, heads-up display of some sort. Or, you know, when I'm, I don't know if I want to have, like,

some panorama around me while I'm walking, like some strange ad. But there's got to be a way of a heads-up display. I mean, I do think there will be augmented reality type of application using MEMS heads up displays that is going to be much more friendly than, I mean, are we going to be wearing glasses? Is that odd? Like, what's the most body friendly, just body-friendly, functional way that will help us in our lives. I still feel that there's an opportunity there,

and we just haven't figured it out. We'll get there. Yeah, but it's exciting. I'm getting a little philosophical. No, no, that's fine. It's the afternoon. I understand. So what other sensors?

Are there MEMS cameras are ccd cameras mems or different well i think the area that i'd like to talk to more than cameras necessarily because like cameras yes and there's stability and there's you know great stuff they're doing there um and there's there's definitely stuff being done with, but it's really not a huge market. Someone's, of course, going to call in to the podcast, and say, are you kidding me? It's $50 billion. But smartphones, smart microphones, like these ones should be smarter.

Oh, yes. There are many things I would like to do differently about these microphones. And MEMS microphones are smarter. Like the iPhone 5, for all its foibles, actually has two MEMS microphones in it. So it helps cut out the noise you don't want to pass on, like the jackhammer in the background. Those are smarter mics enabled by MEMS. The next step will be, you know, smarter mics in walls, you know, like trying to understand noise

and understand vibration in walls and what's happening in the environment. And, you know, there's sensors everywhere. Like, I think there's an exciting opportunity for using mics in different environments um as a way of understanding touch like i have a there's a company at carnegie mellon university that instead of using um uh current technology for touch like when you're i'm using my finger on the table right now, but you can't see it at home. They're actually using microphones, MEMS microphones, and the different sound like a knuckle makes versus a finger versus a nail so that people can use their iPads and their iPhones and their tablets or whatever, smartphones in different ways using acoustic sound and it's a different way of communicating and using your tablet and you know artistically or expressing yourself differently

and I know I have trouble like when I'm trying to write and I'm trying to copy and paste something using like my thumb finger oh yes yes the whole try to highlight it on your phone or your iPad and then copy it and not delete it. I just lost it. I'm going to type that thing again. Yes. And so this company called Quexo, Q-E-E-X-O. I hope I'm right on that one. It's a Carnegie Mellon spin out.

They have a technology that will fix all that because it's more specific. It's smarter. Using acoustics, moms. Okay. And I mean, there are lots of use for better microphones. Oh, and singers. Think of it. Well, I worked at a company called ShotSpotter.

We made a gunshot location system. You sprinkle sensors, not microphones, because that would be very PR badly, but you sprinkle microphones around a city and automatically call the police when there's a gunshot. And those microphones were incredibly sensitive to things like salt fog in Boston and other sorts of environmental oddities.

The system that worked beautifully in Los Angeles, California, did not do so well in the ice storms of Minneapolis. And having a sensor that was more encapsulated, more encased, that is a pure sensor on its own, would be incredibly valuable. Right. And getting it to the price point. And I think that'll be the trick. And having it so that it's... Not disposable MEMS. Actually, the environmentalist in me gets a little queasy when I hear about people talking about a price point so cheap. You have throwaway sensors and throwaway MEMS. I'm like, okay. But when they cost a nickel

and they're the size of a grain of dust. Well, we're not there yet. No, we're not there yet, but you can kind of see it happening. Well, and that is the vision of a lot of people and definitely makes for great sci-fi movies. So what other new censors can we expect in the future? Or new applications of the sensors we have?

See, new sensors, I'm not sure. New MEMS? Oh, yeah. New MEMS. Because that's where things get cheap and ubiquitous. Well, yeah. And saying about new applications, like, honey, your imagination is the only thing that's limiting

the new applications of MEMS. I mean, I think I could just rattle off a bizarre. I mean, I think applications for MEMS, I would go into, like, sensor fusion, like, where you can really put a combination of sensors and MEMS on the same, in the same package. And beyond inertial measurement units. Absolutely. Because as much as I love those, those it's been done now it's just software but you can add a whole bunch of other stuff i mean weather stations is kind of obvious and that's been done but now that it's mems you could have them every square meter for your farm to make sure that you're getting the right amount of water really like to have accurate weather yeah microclimates are important

yeah they're really important and especially in areas like especially with global warming and although you know and i'm sorry i believe that we have global warming for your republican listeners or ultra conservative listeners i'm very, but I believe that we are experiencing global warming. I saw the effects of Hurricane Sandy in my hometown in Connecticut, and it's devastating. You see all these hurricanes. You see these mass floods. Wouldn't it be great to have some better understanding of what's happening? Because it's only going to get worse. I think there's, like, there's some serious stuff that MEMS could help to prepare, prevent those types of events from, you know, happening and preparing us for opportunity, opportunity.

You know, that would be awesome. I think that would be great. Then I think the Internet of Things, obviously, like sensors, smart sensors in smart places that are, you know, matched with algorithmic software. And then, obviously, it has to be contextually aware. You know, contextually aware. So it can't be, you know be sending you a bunch of crap.

Well, and when I talk to the electric amp folks, they make a Wi-Fi module and processor that's super small. We talked a lot about sprinklers. And I think about my sprinklers and how I want to be able to turn them on and off remotely. But really, I just want a weather station to tell them when to turn on and off. And my sprinklers are not that big of a deal. But when you think about sprinklers for the whole central part of California, that is one giant farm, and being able to water super efficiently, that would be cool. And you put on a humidity sensor and a barometer so you know what the weather is going to be like?

This all can be done. I mean, I think that's the thing is really exciting is the technology is there. And then you look to health care and quality of life, which I think is actually the biggest, biggest place where we really can affect change, change the world. Like, I really feel that we can affect change. I mean, look, just talking about the United States, what are the number one and two killers for men and women, diabetes, obesity. Okay. Then they die of cancer. Right. But there are many root causes based on obesity, heart disease. You know, I would say obesity is probably one of the biggest issues that Americans have, okay?

Get up, get moving. But we need smart information about what we're doing, what we're eating. And I think Americans in general, I would say, for the majority of us, we are ready to have that information. We are ready to be empowered. The healthcare system is changing, I think. And if you don't have a Fitbit, consider getting one because I've worked for that company and I love them. Right, exactly.

And I think there's going to be a lot of smarter information enabled by MEMS. And then there's also thinking about revolutionary applications for diagnostics for horrible diseases like cancer. And using MEMS technology and microfluidic technology to identify cancer cells and blood. Well, then not only the diagnost exciting. There's the ability to actually affect change. My producer works on OCT systems, which is a way of looking at the plaque buildup in arteries. And that's not a MEMS sensor yet. And it has the potential to eventually, that sort of thing, we can get there. And we can, you know, there's a famous Feynman lecture about nanotechnology and there's more room at the bottom and you can look it up on the internet. But he talks about the doctor that you swallow. And MEMS is the path to get there.

Absolutely. In many ways, I mean, again, the technology is already here. It's already here. We have the technology. We have it. Now it's a matter of packaging and price and market.

And using your imagination to add more than one of these sensors together to get something fantastic. Right. And I'm excited that we're working with partners like the XPRIZE that are working on the Qualcomm Tricorder XPRIZE that is doing just that to inspire that innovation. I know. I definitely need one for me and my children to see,

are you really sick? I think you can go to school today. Yeah, the thermometer is not as all-encompassing as it used to be. Why are you limping? Why are you limping? Well, and the tricorder brings up my favorite MEM sensor that I have never gotten to touch, and that's the molecular detectors and they can be used for bomb

sniffers. I was working with a company and they were thinking about doing bomb sniffers. And I was like, sign me up. I want to work on this. You add a couple of mem sensors and you find out which one's activating. And suddenly,

you know, when there's chemicals that there shouldn't be huge huge i'm i'm waiting for that one please make that one happen a little faster i think that would be fantastic and think of all the lives and that could be saved on that one well that goes from bombs to insulin detection without blood drawing oh oh yeah by breath by breath absolutely and and i know that's possible because they've trained beagles to help diabetics. You know, again, I know the technology's there. It's just the application and the package.

And we have to get there. No, I agree. I agree. So I think somebody's working on it. I bet one of your listeners is working on it. But don't do it in isolation in your garage. I think that's the other message that I want to bring to the listeners and I want to tell everybody is that you don't need to go it alone. I think that's the thing that when I talk

to people outside of the MEMS industry, they're like, no way there's a MEMS industry group. I don't just have to buy something at Radio Jack and then try to like finagle it by myself. That no spark fund is the only source for a lot of people. No, it's not. There's the MEMS Initiative Group. And we have a ton of stuff online on our website that's free for you. And we have resources. We have webinars.

We have technical experts. We have so many great resources that are available online for free. We have a specifications guideline of standardized performance definitions. And this is for sensors. And this is fantastic. It really is. Yeah. I told you about it. And you were like, no way. And it's a great guidebook, like spec sheet. And the device manufacturers for MEMS are going by it. So if you have, if you listeners have heard of a sensor that you used to not be able to figure out

what the data sheet meant, or you used to not be able to compare two accelerometers together, and suddenly you now can look at the ones from Bosch and TI and Analog and say, oh, this one is better here and that one is better here because they're all kind of showing me the same set of data. This is what the MEMS industry group has done is they've given basically a standard for what the data sheets should have. And when you define noise, you actually have a definition for what that noise means instead of everybody defining it just a little bit differently. You know, whether or not there's the multiplication by 20 is pretty important when

you're talking about noise. So that was really cool. I looked at that one and it covers accelerometers, magnetometers, gyros, pressure, humidity, temperature, ambient light, and proximity. Right. And it talks about what their internal clocks should be like and how precise they should be, how they should talk about their temperature effect over, or their measurement effect over temperature, because MEMS does have that problem. Yes, it does.

Which is they are very sensitive to temperature. Yes. When you get something that small, you think about it. Well, it's silicon, so you have to remember that too. So there's sometimes issues with that. Well, it's silicon, so you have to remember that too. So there's sometimes issues with that. Well, with the temperature, temperature is a measurement of how much the molecules are moving, how fast they're going. And when you're that small, having a molecule bump into you and transmit some of its energy to you affects your readings. So temperature is super important for MEMS.

Don't ever forget that. This is another one of those, my phrase, that every sensor is a temperature sensor. Some of them just measure other things as well. MEMS are definitely temperature sensors. So a lot of them end up getting calibrated for that. But those data sheets talk about how to do that and whether there's a fixed equation or whether you should do something with ovens but the standards the standards tell you

how to talk about that to compare things standard definitions just so we're clear they're not standards so they haven't been like and you know the the holy grail or of ieee hasn't come and blessed them yet that's a process we're working on now. So they have not been, just so your listeners know, they are not standards as of yet, but that is a goal that we are working towards. Cool. They seemed reasonable.

Yes. You know, we're not done yet. That's the other thing, too. We have lots of work to do. So some of these are free and on your website easily available, including the standards. Yeah, absolutely. And we have lots of great resources, webinars.

We have a technology development protocol template for new product development that helps you understand when you're doing a new product how to look at MEMS and who you need to work with and how to relate to them differently. And it's something we developed with the folks at Avago, as well as at HP, Hill Packard. So these are some of the smart and brilliant people out there that we've pulled together to get their expertise on lean manufacturing, smart manufacturing,

but MEMS-specific, because no one's done that before. So we're trying to share lessons learned for MEMS specific, because no one's done that before. So we're trying to share lessons learned for MEMS and build value for the industry. And, you know, that's what an industry association is all about. And all the good networking and all those good things. And I've heard there's a lot of alcohol at your networking events. Not that I know. Well, sometimes it helps to have a glass of wine or two.

So I always get to your website by just searching for MEMS Industry Group. Thank you. And that leads me straight to your website. What is it actually? And this will be in the show notes. Thank you. It's www.memsindustrygroup.org. That's the only hard part.

Yes. We're a non-profit. And so who joins? You said companies and that makes a lot of sense. You know, the TIs of the world, the Bosches, that all makes a ton of sense.

But lately you've been talking to me and I'm more of an implementer. I don't design MEMS systems. I just use them. And you are somebody that we would love to get more of because we want to understand why you like MEMS. What you want MEMS to do for you. Where would you like MEMS to take you, sweetheart? What do you gripe about MEMS? When you're on a project and you have to deal with MEMS, what makes you wake up and go, that damn temperature sensor is driving me nuts.

Or faster data acquisition, more accuracy, and cheaper. I knew that one. But you know that's always going to be my answer 10 years from now when we have more incredible things. But then what happens is we create, so it's this conversation. So it's creating these opportunities for conversation with folks like you who are taking the MEMS and honestly making it smarter, making it do the things you want it to do, putting it in more creative places. And even some of the algorithms, I think I saw behind your paywall, there were a few, here's how you go ahead and put together a fusion engine. Absolutely. And that is something, that is actually an area that we're really working a lot to make the connection with sensors.

You know, it's not just MEMS, it's MEMS and sensors and sensor fusion and sensor integration and really bridging out to the companies who are looking to offer more to their customers, to their end customers, so they can have a broader offering. So that's why we're looking to get more folks like you to be a part of that conversation so that you can then in turn have more intelligent conversations

with your customers so that when you're using MEMS, that you can more intelligently and more expressively describe what MEMS can do and the sensors can do. It's really just, I mean, my mantra is like, grow the pie, grow the pie, grow the pie. It's to help you, to help me, to help you, to help me. You know, everyone wins. That's what I want.

I want everybody to win. And I want, you know, I really, and I also believe in the technology. Like, I really feel that MEMS, because of the enabling technology of MEMS, it can make the world a better place. It makes the world a smarter, cleaner place. Happier. Smiling children, cupcakes, and unicorns. Good. Unicorns.

Yes. That's where it all ends, I'm sure. Everybody thinks unicorns are innocent, but that's where it all ends. They do have that horror. Yeah, exactly. It's not really nice. But most of your industry group participants are companies. They're all companies. Not individuals. We do not allow individuals to join MEMS

industry group unless you're a sole proprietor. And God bless you. We want you to win. So we give you the lowest entry price. Excellent. So if you are a young man, man woman child no no children um in your sole proprietor you are allowed to be a member but as soon as you hire one more employee you become a small company congratulations since we just incorporated from uh llc sole proprietor to Logical Elegance Inc. Congratulations. I don't think we're going to fall under this sole proprietor anymore. But we have a, we actually, the category that you're in, we have the second lowest price point for you because we want to get you in.

So the sole proprietors, they're the kind of companies that we love to have. But then the companies like yours, Logical Elegance, we have actually the second lowest price point for you because we want to have you guys within our family. And I always say it's like once you taste the nectar, like once you get in, you're going to love it. We actually have an end user campaign going on right now, where, and you're, you'd be in that area where you can come, you can have a free pass to our MEMS Executive Congress, which you'll be. Yes, yes, that's next on my list. Oh, perfect. So we

have a, you know, basically, we want to get more companies like you, integrators, people who are using MEMS, and bring them into the discussion, bring them into this community to talk about standardization issues, where MEMS needs to go, what are the issues that MEMS needs to address going forward. And it's also the networking. So where else? I mean, that's actually at the end of the day, where else are you going to find all the movers and shakers, all the people who are making and doing the MEMS in one place? You can try to do this on your own. God bless you. But there truly is no other place on the planet. We are it.

We are the trade association for MEMS. So if you are interested in using MEMs anywhere in what you're doing you really should be a part of us because your members include people like elisa fitzgerald who make mems to order if you have a brand new idea and they make and then there's the larger vendors like ti and bosh and all of those people who do huge volume and maybe you could influence something in the future. Or they could be your partner. Or they could acquire you. I mean, you know, think big people.

Think small. Think big. Whatever you need to be to be successful, you could have a conversation that in five years could be your next startup. I mean, that's what's really exciting is that the networking that you can do and the level of technical conversations that you will have at MEMS industry group events and the knowledge you will gather through the in-person and online events that we offer you cannot get anywhere else and i think it's really you know it's like the best

bang for your buck in memes by so for about the cost of going to a conference you get a whole year's worth of information yep yep yep yep so the executive council that's in conference a congress and i'm butchering the name. That's good. Is the executive something or another? It's called. Take 17. It's called MEMS Executive Congress. And it will be in a tiny little town known for its potatoes.

No. For its potato vodka. It's in Napa at the Meritage Resort and Spa. And it's early November, I think. Yeah, 7th. The 7th and 8th. Okay. And it sounds like anybody who's using MEMS should go, anybody who's really excited about MEMS should go,

and anybody who's making MEMS should go. Not anybody. Not anybody. Not anybody. It's really, it's a senior executive event. So that's the one thing is, if you want a technical conference, this is not for you. So that's a good thing that we should clarify. This is not a how to do MEMS conference. This is on the business of MEMS. It's going to be talking about where the industry is going. The speakers and panels will be the majority of which will be end-user companies like Google and Nike and

Qualcomm and Samsung talking about trends and where sensors and MEMS fit into those trends, those market application trends. And they'll be providing their wish lists. Absolutely. That's my little carrot to them. As I say, my audience is the entire MEMS supply chain, the decision makers of the supply chain. You get to be on a stage and tell them what you want. So the session that I am participating in, this is a presentation for censors. This is a pitch event, and I get to be the practical voice of,

yes, I have done this a hundred times. You are never going to succeed. I'm so looking forward to being a judge. No, but you have to be positive. Oh, I, you have to be encouraging. I'm so excited. I hope somebody shows me a bomb sniffer. I know.

Well, okay. Make note to self. Look for bomb sniffing technology. How about wine sniffing technology? I think we could find that. It'll be Napa. So yeah, we'll find that. So it's our first ever elevator pitch session

because I am a believer in the little guy or gal. it'll be Napa so yeah we'll find that um so it's our first ever elevator pitch session because I am a believer in the little guy or gal especially little gals and I really want to see more money in MEMS that was something that I lamented at last year's executive congress is I was like where is the freaking money for MEMS? Because we are on fire. We are so hot. And nobody, it's really hard to get money for MEMS. And that's, you know. From VCs or hard to get money from?

It's hard to get the attention of VCs. It's hard to get the attention of investment bankers. It's hard to get to the, yeah. Those two main communities just don't get us. And then analysts, analyst firms. There are very few true analyst firms that are like mainstream, big name analyst firms. Save a few. There are a few that are good about this, following this. Okay.

But I would say the majority are not following or they can't define MEMS. Well, we had trouble at the beginning, I'll remind you. Yes. But they're not even aware of MEMS. They may know the word sensor, but they don't know what it is. So the point is, I'm here to offer awesome technology, awesome companies that are doing great work in MEMS, or sensors, or an application thereof. And I'm reaching out to this audience, because it can be anything, okay?

I'm talking anything. It's a bring-your-own-imagination sort of event. Absolutely, and it can be at any stage. Any stage, and I'm talking anything. You have to bring your own imagination sort of event. Absolutely. And it can be in any stage. Any stage. And I mean any stage. And it's going to be creative. You're going to have five minutes for your elevator pitch. And any stage of development.

Gosh, I'm not sure I want to be a judge. I might want to just pitch something. That would be an interesting role play. Wait, Alicia. we'll get from one side to the table wait i thought you wait you're a blonde you're gonna pronounce your i'm alicia i'm alicia black um but the point is like just to bring your imagination and i would love to see some creative applications of mems any kinds kinds of MEMS or sensors, and maybe some new materials. It's not even just the device.

It could be materials, equipment. I think it would be fun just to see where it goes. I'm totally, this is new. I love creativity, and I just want to just go with it. And we're going to have, there's an investment banker we already have on the panel. I'm going after two more VCs and an angel, just go with it. And we're going to have, there's an investment banker we already have on the panel.

I'm going after two more VCs and an angel, maybe a VC and an angel investor who will also be on the panel to help judge. But it's going to be positive. Don't be afraid of your panelists. Elise.

Oh, no, no. Because I am so excited about. Everyone be very positive and sweet and warm and cuddly although i am giving hugs all around hugs um i'm hoping somebody will present a brand new sensor nobody has ever thought about before okay there's no pressure on on lining up i'm okay if they don't well i think we're about out of time. I think MEMS are cool. Karen, you obviously think MEMS are cool.

Any thoughts you'd like to leave us with? Oh, gosh. I'm just really excited to have this opportunity to reach your audience because I want your audience to think MEMS are cool. I want them to research what MEMS can do for them. I want them to look what MEMS can do for them. I want them to look at the enabling technology. I want them to push it.

I want them to explore it and see where it can take them. And it's companies, individuals like you that are going to make it successful. It's not a device manufacturer, a little lonely engineer on a bench making the device. It's, I mean, God bless him or her, okay, in the lab. But he or she is really not the critical part of this. It's somebody like you or somebody listening to this that's really going to make the success. It's the application and the imagination. Excellent.

I'm happy you were able to take the time to talk with me. I will let you get back to semi-con thank you so much elisa a few final words for you listening our producer christopher white was not here today so the sound quality is entirely my fault anyway it sounds good it's because he cleaned it up and i hope you appreciate what he's managed. Leave a comment for him or for me at embedded.fm or email the show, show at makingembeddedsystems.com. Finally, check out the show notes for links about the MEMS industry group and all of the things that it provides, including that executive council.