Embedded - 18: Brine Solids Building Up in Strange Places

Episode Date: September 11, 2013

Elecia White and Amy Button discuss Amy's dream of going to Mars, her previous role in training astronauts to handle disasters, and her current work on a magic box of rocks that will keep Orion's air breathable.    Mars One  Amy’s applicant page (with video) Nixon's moon disaster speech Amy's favorite other applicant

Space. The final frontier. Oh wait, that's not right. Actually, this is Making Embedded Systems, the show for people who love gadgets. I'm Alicia White, and Amy Button is talking to me from Texas about her bid to go to Mars, and about space rocks. Hi Amy, thank you for joining me. Hi! Happy to be here.

So, Mars One, that's the going to Mars project. What is it? How does it work? I think there are actually several projects going on right now, but this is the one that I'm tweaked to. They've set themselves up as a non-profit organization out of, I believe, the Netherlands. And their goal is to send people on a non-profit organization out of, I believe, the Netherlands. And their goal is to send people on a one-way trip to Mars to basically get people out exploring,

you know, help drive the technologies. And they've also set up, or they hope to use a, show format to help fund it. For the astronaut selection and presumably training and also the eventual mission. And they'll send four people every two years. Kind of American Idol goes to space. Sort of. I suspect it will be more like one of the less competitive shows, like The Biggest Loser or the ones where people aren't necessarily,

well, I suppose that's one where they vote on each other. Well, there was the old Junkyard Wars TV show. Yes. Where you did kind of help each other, but mostly you competed against each other. And in the end, you built stuff out of a junkyard, which was very fun. Yes. And I actually know people who were on that once. Really? Yeah.

We will talk about that, too. OK. So how real is it? I mean, a reality show going to space. All right. Once I wrap my head around that, it seems OK, but it doesn't seem likely. Well, I think the reality show aspect of it is I think people are kind of latching on to that. But really, I see it as just a way for them to gather public interest and by that route to gather money for the project because space travel is never

cheap. As far as the reality of it, they seem to have a reasonably sensible plan for how to go about it. They're going to start by launching communication relay satellites. They're going to do a rover. They're going to launch unmanned missions to try and set up things before the people get there. So they're planning it in a sensible manner in terms of trying to proceed by stages, and that will give them ways to solve the problems that they run across as they go, the inevitable problems that they'll run across. So it's not just they send you in a rocket to space and to Mars and then poof, you're done. Wow, you won the contest. No, no, it's a fairly organized scheme.

I think their timeline might be a little ambitious. But I can say that because I've been involved in the space program for many years. But it's certainly doable, maybe not quite as fast as they want. But I think it's certainly doable. Maybe not quite as fast as they want, but I think it's certainly feasible. So you mentioned you've been in the space program for a number of years and I didn't say, could you introduce yourself? So maybe I should go back. And what is it that you work on? I work as a contractor at NASA Jensen Space Center in Houston. I currently am working on developing next generation life support technologies. So next generation air scrubbers.

And I work closely with our sister team who works on water processing projects, you know, urine collection, urine treatment, toilets in space. We do. We pee for science all the time. It's fun. Oh, the potty humor must be fantastic. Oh my gosh. If you have a delicate nature, you may not want to go out to lunch with us. Oh, I totally understand. I worked on a little toy for like four, well, I guess two-year-olds to teach them potty training. And we had to do a bunch of software. And it was like, and then the parents could change

the name because different houses and cultures have different names for pee and poo and so I had the pee name variable so yeah uh peeing for space excellent yes but I mean these these kinds of things are important you but you do a lot of this research on the ground, but there's always that element of how things are going to change in space. Things behave differently in microgravity. You get brine solids building up in strange places inside rotary drums that the water didn't go there on the ground because there's gravity. Or in an air scrubber, they usually work with a lot of, with a sorbent of some sort that's

usually pelletized or beads or something like that. And in space, it's just kind of free floating. And so it moves with tidal motion as the airflow starts and stops. And depending on the material, it could start generating dust, which then gets into the mechanical parts downstream and gums up the works. And it's those kinds of things that I'm worried that Mars One is not necessarily fully cognizant of. Well, it does help to have a space background yourself to be able to think about this. Yeah. You mentioned air scrubbers.

What in particular? Not sure what you mean by that. Oh, I just, what do you work on? I'm easily distracted by toilets in space because there's so much there that we could talk about. Yes, I work in the air scrubbers um the the project that i've been working on for most of the last seven years i think um is a small box it's developed by uh i guess they're called united technologies aerospace now

um it's uh you know maybe a foot and a half long by a foot wide. Well, no, call it a foot tall, a foot and a half long, and maybe eight or 10 inches wide. And this box full of, um, their little plastic beads covered with, uh, an amine chemical, um, to simplify it for the way people, we just usually call it a box full of magic rocks. But this little box, there's one moving part, one valve on it, and with sufficient airflow and a source of vacuum to regenerate that sorbent, it can keep six people alive in the Orion vehicle indefinitely. It's kind of cool technology. And so we're trying to figure out, you know,

where do we need to work on refinements of how many rocks to put in the box, how to best work the airflow through the thing to reduce pressure drop, lots of different aspects like that that we work on. Indefinitely. I mean, indefinitely. That's kind of a, that's a big statement. Yes. One limitation of this particular technology is that it's really

best for a mid-length mission. Something like what the space station has, which uses a different kind of sorbent. A different kind of rock. Yes which uses a different kind of sorbent. A different kind of rock. Yes, basically a different kind of rock. They use zeolites instead of an amine-type sorbent. And zeolites are literally rocks. But that system doesn't have the affinity for water that the amine system has that we work on. So they can save a lot more of the space station's resources. It's more appropriate for a really,

really long-term mission. The box that I'm working on, it removes both carbon dioxide and water vapor out of the air. So it dumps a lot of resources overboard, plus it dumps a little bit of air every time you regenerate one of the beds. So you can take enough stuff to offset those losses, but for a long-term mission, you're just going to have to take too much stuff with you to make up for it. For a really short-term mission, you don't need such a highly engineered solution. You can just do a different kind of rock, lithium hydroxide, which is a one and done kind of material. So your box of rocks, the amine version, wouldn't probably go with you to Mars, but the space station version, xylite, xylute? Xylite. Xylite might go with you to Mars. Is that right? Or is it some other totally different technology that would be used there? I am not entirely certain. I know that one of the listed vendors on the Mars One website is Paragon. And we've seen some of their, you know, we attend a lot

of the same conferences because we're all working on spacecraft life support stuff. So we've sort of gotten a preview of the kinds of technologies that they're working on. And it seems to be sort of a hybrid between the zeolite solution and the amine solution. And it's got its strengths and weaknesses. Once you have a box of rocks, you can just toss in other rocks, right? Sometimes. I mean, you have to work around some things. Like we actually have a payload, um,

for on the, the space station right now made from our box of rocks, but because it normally dumps so much stuff, which is great for Orion, which because for Orion, it allows them to not have to have a condensing heat exchanger, which removes the need for some cooling and things like that. But for, again,

for space station, dumping a whole bunch of water and air overboard is not so good. So for the space station application, we had to put a bunch of extra hardware around this lab test article to help prevent some of the water from getting to it in the first place and to try and save some of the air that would normally be dumped overboard. And when I say hardware, I mean electronics and boards. But when you say hardware, you mean? I mean things I can put my hands on. All right. And manipulate. I'm a mechanical engineer. So yeah. Well, it sounds like you do a lot of chemistry as well. I personally don't do a lot of chemistry. We have a chemistry or excuse me, a chemical engineering PhD on our team. And we give him all the hard math and he does the chemistry and I just,

I run the tests and do all the data analysis and yeah. Cool. I do the grunt work. He does the math and it's a good arrangement. But you've done some astronaut training too, haven't you? Yes. When I first started out of college, um, I actually started in the astronaut training, uh, group where we were, and I, I got in basically right on the ground floor of the space station development so this was back in the late 90s and so it was really exciting to get in on the ground floor of something big like that which is part of what draws me to Mars One as well where you know I was developing training products, developing manuals, developing classroom lessons, helping test and develop computer simulators, both for individual systems and for the integrated, the whole vehicle system.

You know, you see, you hear about all these mission simulations to train the flight controllers and the astronauts, and that's the kind of stuff that we did. We were professional gremlins. That would be pretty fun. It was. It's a lot of fun, but it's also a lot of stress and a lot of crazy hours, especially at the beginning like that. Well, and if I mean, you can definitely screw up in your job. It's not like rocket scientists. Once they build the rocket, they really shouldn't screw any part of that up for fear of explosion. But still, you're training people, and you need to train them in all the ways they might need. So there's a little bit of, how do you think of all the possibilities? And how do you make sure you check all the boxes off? Well, I mean, we also have to trust them to be smart people. And,

you know, after working with astronauts so closely, I have a whole new respect for them. I mean, I respected them before, but after working so closely with them, they are smart people. They're really, really hard workers. And creative. I think that isn't emphasized nearly enough. But if you look at the Apollo 13 movie, because that's where we are in technology these days, coming up with the solutions to actually come back were pretty amazing. Yeah. I mean, it's a shame that they had to do all that in the first place.

But yeah, I mean, you put somebody in a life-threatening situation, they're going to come up with good stuff. And, you know, the smarter they are to start with, and the more general knowledge that they have to start with, the better off they're going to do. And I expect a lot of the Mars One training is going to lean more towards that than training people on individual specific tasks. Well, and going back to Mars One, it is, there is some training. It isn't like you, you join the Mars One pool and then suddenly if your name is selected out of a hat, you get sent to Mars. There's many steps between here and there. Yeah, they're, they're going through the,

the first selection process now. And the intent for this one is to select, I think it's 24 people by sometime in the 2015 timeframe, but the first launch isn't until 2023. So there's lots of time for training. There's a lot of, it's going to be a lot of things to learn. You're going to have to, basically you've got four people to keep each other alive in a hostile environment, far, far away from any form of rescue for two years until the next group of people arrives. So everybody's going to have to be, you know, you're going to have to have at least a primary and a backup on everything from growing plants to cooking, to fixing the electronics, to fixing the mechanical systems to just everything, geologists and doctors. So we're in 2013, and that's 2015 is getting down to 24 people.

2013, you have 10,000 other applicants? Oh, I think there's more than that. I think it's in the hundreds of thousands. Wow. So round one, the application process just closed and we're supposed to hear back sometime this month whether or not we get to move on to round two. Round two is supposed to be some sort of statement of good health from your physician. What all that will entail, I'm not sure. And they will also

be going around and doing interviews in various regions of the world. And from that, they'll winnow the field down to, I think, gosh, maybe 20 to 40 from each big area. Yeah, because round three is regionals. I believe so. I think round three, they are going to start. That's when they'll start televising things if they can get the reality show aspect going. And then so people will be able to vote on people from their region. But the experts will also be picking some people for these teams. And they'll be doing it, the TV will be, according to their website, challenges to demonstrate suitability, which

I mean, if you go the Japanese route, that will be hilarious. I can't imagine being quite so tongue-in-cheek. No. I mean, there will be some fun things, surely, just to keep the audience entertained, but I mean, for the most part, there's going to be survival challenges you know they've i guess bear grills has that new reality

show you know get out alive um i imagine there will be some aspects of that there might be some aspects of junkyard wars there might be some aspects of you know just quiz show stuff you know what you're talking about um And maybe even some interpersonal aspects, making sure that you're not the prima donna jerk that you might be. Yes, that is going to be ultimately important because ultimately you're going to be stuck in a very, very small space with these people for the six months to get to Mars and then in a slightly bigger space for the next two years

until you get any sort of company joining you. So you, you're going to have to be paired with people who can get along, who can work as a team, who aren't going to go off the deep end. Psychology is going to be an important factor. Yeah. Oh, that, yeah. Um, but so initially this round one that is closed now but is not finished. Right. You make a video. And so your video is online. Yes. And it will be in the show notes.

So anybody who wants to see Amy's video will be there. You also provide a resume and a letter and some general information. What did you put in your letter? Actually, they asked for a resume, but they didn't actually want a resume and a letter and some general information. What did you put in your letter? Actually, they asked for a resume, but they didn't actually want a resume. It was kind of weird. They just asked for, I think, two or three past jobs, and that was it. It was a little weird. Well, that's sad, because your past jobs would rock.

Yeah, that's what I thought. That's kind of funny, too. There was a letter, and then there were also, I think, six or eight short answer questions on various topics. The questions were just, you know, how would you how do you how would you react in the past to a fearful situation? You know, how did you react to a stressful situation? And that those sorts of things, what kind of type of, what characteristics in another person drive you absolutely insane, things like that. Um, and then the letter was basically just a, you know, here is your 2,500 words or whatever it was to tell us who you are,

why you want to go to Mars and what you think you bring to the table. So, you know, it was fairly predictable. It was basically just a short cover letter, you know, here's who I am, here's why I want to go, and here's why I think I would be great for you. So it seems like most of your application really came from that video where you emphasize your humor a lot, which I liked. I thought that was great. That was actually one of the questions we were supposed to answer. There were three questions. We had to say why you would be a good candidate, why do you want to go, and how would you describe your sense of humor.

So you'll see everybody describing their sense of humor. Okay. I clearly did not their sense of humor. Okay. I clearly did not watch enough of them. I got stuck on yours. I pushed Center to Mars and then, you know. Well, thank you. You also emphasize your handiness with a toolbox and your computer skills. So those are in part why they should choose you.

I think so. I'm basically trying to demonstrate that I have useful skills. Like I said, you've got four people who have to cover a lot of bases for a couple of years all by themselves. So I'm trying to emphasize that I can do mechanical repairs. I can work on computers. I can do these other things. I'm not great with electronics. Somebody else might be great with electronics.

I can figure out my way around them if I have to, but I do bring a fair number of skills to the table. And I was trying to emphasize that, yes. And if you were selected in 2015, you would then get intensive training for the next eight years until they launch. So I suspect you might be an expert electrical person by the time you launch.

One would hope. Or medical. We'll see. I keep trying to wrap my brain around electronics and sometimes it sticks and a lot of times it doesn't. I like things that I can see and manipulate and electricity is magic. Oh, we did a show with LightUp where they're making magnetic connections between electrical components. And it's kind of like snap on circuits and that sort of thing. But they have an augmented reality where you put your smartphone above the circuit you've made and it shows you where the electrons go.

It's got this little light up thing. It's really cute. I'm, I'm looking forward to it because I agree. The electronics part of my job is usually just a cookbook. I, if I want to do something, I'm looking forward to it because I agree. The electronics part of my job is usually just a cookbook. If I want to do something I'm just not sure how to do, it's kind of like ask an electrical engineer. Go back to writing software for me. So yeah. I had to take electrical engineering. I took double E for non-believers and I got through it and I had to take a half

semester course in electric motors and I got through it and I had to take a half semester course in electric motors and I got through it and then I went back to the mechanical side where I'm happier so your application page uh says you are 39 yes the mission go ahead do you want to correct that or oh no I was just gonna say I'll be 40 in three weeks. Well, happy birthday. Thank you. The mission launches in 10 years. Mm-hmm. So you'll be 49 at that point, assuming my math is correct. Yeah, yeah.

You won't be coming back. Nope. Are you scared by not coming back? Not scared, no. I mean, I've kind of moved around on my own for most of my adult life. You know, I went to school, I went off to school by myself and was 700 miles away from home. I moved to Texas by myself. I moved to California, well, with somebody and then moved back to Texas by myself and traveled by myself all over the place. I'm used to going places by myself.

And, you know, people 400 years ago were crossing the Atlantic with no real sight of coming home again. So we're just sort of continuing that tradition, just going a little further. I can understand the independence part, but, yeah. Well, good for you. I mean, I'll miss trees. I'll miss a blue sky i'll miss you know snow and grass but the ocean will have its own charms the dolphins the the desert the trees there'll be plenty of

desert oh well i guess yes none of them will have the the weird joshua trees that i always go see probably not but there will be rocks and there won't be scrub brush but and there won't be any None of them will have the weird Joshua trees that I always go see. Probably not. But there will be rocks and there won't be scrub brush and there won't be any mosquitoes. No. Yes. Looking forward to no mosquitoes, no giant Texas cockroaches, no spiders. No armadillos to run over in the lander. Oh, thankfully.

Armadillos are cute. Exactly. So you've accepted not coming back, and that is very cool. But what would make you not want to go? Is there anything you can think of? severe doubts about the reliability and feasibility of the technologies. Oh, yeah. I mean, if they're if they're. If I thought that was a really good chance of failure, I'm there and they say, well, have you read the event of moon disaster speech from Nixon? I had not read that until you pointed it out to me the other day. And it's a good speech. I like it. It is, but it's something they love. It's something they want to do. I'm going to have to die sometime if I can die, you know, furthering human space exploration. And if people can learn from that and keep moving forward, that I think is probably the best possible way that I could go.

I, yes, because space is cool. I have, I, yes, I dreamed of space forever and wow, this is super cool.

Applications will open up again next year. I also believe in coming home. So yeah, maybe I'm too much of a homebody for all that. There are also other missions going that are doing more of the flyby kind of thing. I'm coming back. How many of your friends and family think you're crazy? Most of my friends work at NASA, so they understand.

Or have known me long enough that they understand. My family understands but they're a little dubious. They're like but how am I going to come visit? We will make Thanksgiving a little more difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a little sad but you know I like I said

people have been exploring the world forever and now we're just going a little bit further sometimes you give things up and and your your NASA friends probably are crazy excited for you the ones who believe it will happen yeah yeah um because it is I mean wow yeah you go to space so you must have been um sixth grade-ishish when Kristen McAuliffe. Yeah, seventh grade. Seventh grade. And that was the...

Challenger. The Challenger exploded right after Takeoff. And I think that there were a lot of us who really were indoctrinated into space is fantastic and cool. And we, we all grew up after man had land after Neil Armstrong had landed on the moon. Yeah. And then it's not been to the moon within my lifetime.

That's depressing. It is. It really is. I mean, they all saw it and all we get to see are movies. Yeah. So, and,

and challenger still makes me cry every time I watch the footage. But, you know, it's still, I feel horrible for those people. I feel horrible for the losses, for their families, for everything. But it's still something that I would do in a heartbeat. And I think it's something, I think you're right. I think the astronauts all know and they all, they made the choice and they would make the same choice yep i hope that's true because krista mccullough was a teacher and it was also supposed to be this neat teaching adventure and everyone was supposed to watch her and yeah and my my teacher uh at the time broke into tears because she had been in part of the product project or part of the competition

and had gotten washed out really late with a broken ankle and knew Krista. Wow. That was so traumatic. Yeah. Um, I'm still friends with that teacher. Cool. But I, I had, I did ask her, do you wish, do you still wish you had gone? Do you wish you hadn't broken your ankle and maybe had been the one she had no doubts she said even i still would want to i still wish they would have chosen me even though it was a disaster yeah um so yeah cool uh i i did wow now I'm kind of, it's a special flavor of crazy. It is. Yes, exactly. So, so something interior, uh, what,

what recreation gadget would you take to get you to Mars? It's like, it's, it's a six month, uh, uh, travel time. So a bit more than the,

the three or four hours to get from California to wherever. And I mean, more than the 20 hours to get to Australia. Yeah. Six months. You're going to have some pretty bad jet lag, too. But what would you take? iPad, Kindle, Wii? I actually want a hybrid of a tablet and an e-reader. You know, the e-reader for low power, you know, easy on the eyes, things like that.

And then the tablet for functionality. The astronauts on the space station love their iPads. I can totally see the use for them in that sort of environment. You've got games, you've got camera, you've got movies, you've got communication tools. And then on the other side you can just read a book yeah i mean a lot of music yeah okay so all in one tablet yeah that question wasn't as hard as i was hoping sorry okay after you have your tablet what is the next gadget oh now see It's hard. Beyond that, the thing that I think the mission should have, should absolutely have, and hopefully the technology will get a little bit more advanced between now and then,

is some sort of small rapid prototyping machine that can do metals, you know, whether it's centered metals or laser cutters, or I don't even know what. But I think something like that is going to be critical for building replacement parts. You will absolutely have it because just a few weeks ago, we had Andreas on the show from Atmel, and he was super excited about one of his processors being used to make a 3D printer on the space station. I think it's going up maybe this month or next month. I mean, he was just 3D printers in space. Yeah. And so we'll have to look into that. Absolutely. You

will definitely get a 3D printer. I don'tals are harder because hot is harder. Well, the way that, I mean, they have such devices on Earth. It's just a question of whether they're going to be small enough and efficient enough to do, to work, or to be sent to Mars. But, I mean, you basically just get a pan full of metal powder and you melt the layers, the shapes that you want in each layer and build it layer by layer but the one of the problems with that is the melting is even if you use lasers to get pretty pinpoint levels of melting you still have to dissipate that heat and that was one of

the really interesting things learning about engineering for space was space is hot and space is cold. And it really depends on which way the sun is and if you're in shadow and once you're one or the other, it's really hard to switch. I do you have you had to deal with any of that? That's that's more of an issue for external environments than for internal. I mean, in microgravity, it's absolutely a completely different beast than it would be on, you know, even reduced gravity of Mars. Reduced gravity of Mars, I figure a 3D printer of some sort

is going to work okay. Yeah, yeah. Microgravity, yes. It's because there is no convection, so you have to either force flow or cold plate things that are inside. And outside, you either have to have some sort of heat pipe or radiator or in combination with heaters. And yeah, temperature control is definitely a factor that needs to be designed for. Cold plating. I seem to recall that from,

I don't know, probably grade school, probably that same year as Challenger. That's when you get two pieces of metal really clean and then you put them next to each other and they just weld for the fun of it? No, no, no. Cold plating is, it's just a pair of metal plates with water flow in between them and the water carries the heat away. And you mount your electronics onto that so that the heat gets transferred by conduction into the plate and the water. That's just water cooling. They do that for video game machines. Yes, yes.

I was excited about cold welds. I wondered if that actually, you know, ever worked or if that was just a sci-fi thing I read. No, cold welding does work. We got to have a pretty clean environment. But yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of interesting materials, development stuff. Well, let's see. In the Mars One stuff, going back to that. One of the things that I wondered was that the CEO and CTO Boz Landstorp and

Amo Wielders, they're super gung-ho on space. I mean, super gung-ho on space and going to Mars. Why wouldn't they just choose themselves? Well, I mean, you know, for a future mission, maybe they will. But some people,

some people really get off on wanting to help things happen and, you know, be the, be the motivating forces on the ground and controlling the programs and deciding the directions of things. And that's their wheelhouse and other people just want to go and do. It's just like any job. You know, why are CEOs CEOs? It's a lot of work. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of headaches. And some of the others of us are happy as worker bees. I figured the CEOs were CEOs because they were all earning enough money to go up into space.

Well, I mean, they probably could, but maybe they just, maybe that's what they want to do is they just want to drive things from the ground or maybe they'll go in the future. I don't know. I haven't talked to them. Well, I hope you do because that would mean that you've made it past this round and probably past the next one. Hopefully. What do you hope to explore when you get to Mars? Oh, wow. Everything that they'll let me. What do you want to find? Are you like super excited about life or about different rocks or how things grow in Mars? I've always had a nascent interest in geology and I'm interested in understanding why

I guess what geological processes have happened on Mars to make it look the way it has and how does that differ from Earth and mostly I'm just I think mostly though I'm just interested in helping people learn how to survive in completely foreign environments like that. So I think it's less about Mars itself than the opportunity to go and do and advance the project as a whole. Okay. Yeah, I could see that.

Because being the first ones there, the chances you get to go out and play outside are actually kind of small. What you get to do initially, at least for those first two years, is build the settlement and solve the immediate problems. Keep the dust off the solar panels and probably do a little exploring. I hear they have dust devils for that. Yeah, we will. Not reliable, though.

On Earth or on Mars. Exactly. Sorry, that's probably a bad thing to say. Well, no, I mean, we had some of our rovers went for much longer and if they wouldn't have if they hadn't gotten the Mars cleanup crew through. I was thinking bad thing to be dissing brands on Earth. Oh, I see. I had missed that. Thank you. Now I've made it really clear to everybody. It's a perfectly good product. Or maybe I just watch too much Craig Ferguson.

Are you worried that the reality TV aspect of Mars One is maybe not respectful for those of you who have also spent your life in service to NASA. I mean, NASA is dignified. I'm a little worried Mars One won't be. I think it will be. Just because of the gravity, no pun intended, of the gravity of this situation.

You've got to have people who are competent. You can't let the theater take over. Yes, it's cool to get the public involved. Yes, it's cool for the public to be in public, to feel involved and to be exposed to the types of people who make these things happen. But I don't, I don't think that it's going to be denigrating to anything that, that NASA does.

I mean, NASA does a lot of PR and honestly they could do a better job of it. Maybe, maybe they need to do a reality show to introduce people to, hey, here's what space people do on a regular basis. And yeah, I mean, you have this vision of engineers being all boring, and sometimes we are. You don't see a lot of sitcoms about engineers.

But it's important work, and it needs to be done. And NASA has a neat YouTube channel, but they usually show it in elementary school. And I think once you've seen them play with water and microgravity, after that it gets a little boring. But the first few times are pretty cool. Yes, yeah. But NASA definitely needs help with its PR business.

And doing more exciting things would inherently help that. And making it more approachable. Making it so that you or me, we could believe that we could be the next ones in space would make us more interesting. Yeah, and Mars One is definitely capitalizing on that. Yeah, and I like that about it. It is going to help people picture themselves in space. And if we could all picture ourselves in space, then we could all maybe get a little closer to getting into space.

And maybe people would be a little less reticent about, oh, why should we be sending people to space when we've got all these problems here on Earth? When, you know, in reality, NASA gets less than a cent of every person's, everyone's tax dollars. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of science is lame arguments that I would love to tear apart, but I don't think we can do that here. No, no.

Too much. Do you think that the Mars One astronaut training will be to NASA levels or nearly NASA levels of training? I had seen this question in your pre-show notes. And I don't know why I think you should know the answer to that. Maybe you should just say, if I was, it would be. No, what I was going to say is NASA has a very specific approach to training.

NASA loves its procedures. It loves to have very refined procedures, and the astronauts know how to follow a procedure. They have a list of tools that they need. They have a step-by-step procedure for how to exactly do everything, and that's how they work. Russia works very differently. They train their cosmonauts in general skills. And they say, this task needs doing, go do it. If you need some help,

holler. And they both have advantages, they both have disadvantages. I suspect Mars One will tap anybody and everybody who they can to help out. I would not be surprised if NASA helps with some of the training. I would not be surprised if Star City helps with some of the training. I think all the space programs have something to contribute and there's probably things that they could grow in-house as well. But I think ultimately, yes, it's going to be a good and thorough training program. It has to be for the success of the mission. And as you said before, one of the reasons you might say, no, thank you, is if that training is insufficient and if the technology is

poorly tested. And I guess this is the part where I say, and Amy is a great candidate because she understands how testing works and she's been part of the NASA program and she's trained astronauts herself. She's ready to be an astronaut. So, yeah. There I go. Thank you.

Well, I've met people I've wanted to send to Mars and you are not one of them. But if you want to go, awesome. Have fun. Best of luck. Thank you. How can we, how can I, my listeners, help you? At this point, there's not a whole lot that the public is doing other than, you know, spread the word about this program.

They can absolutely always use donations. They have merchandise for sale. They take donations. And also we're just trying to spread the word and make people aware that this is happening and this is coming. And, hey, this is something that you too could be a part of if you want to in the future. And space can be for everybody. Let's get excited about going to space again. Yes.

But we also can visit your page and vote for you. It doesn't actually count for anything at this point. But more votes are always better. Yes. And you know it's a good little ego boost. Yeah. Stuff the ballot box. Yes.

Well I think that's been happening whether we want it or not. It's kind of weird. Originally, I thought other people were doing things to their votes where they had, you know, 10 times as many votes as video views or 100 times or 1,000 times. And then it happened to me, too. And I didn't do anything. So I don't agree with the system or something. I'm I'm not quite sure how it works finally somebody got to your ballot box to start stuffing apparently and it went down for a while then it went up for a while and I don't know oh this is what the podcast listenerships like to I understand links to that will be included included in the show notes so if you're a listener head over to embedded.fm to see them. While you're there, hit the contact link that says hello.

And thank you for listening. And Amy Button, thank you for speaking with me. Thank you, Alicia. Finally, thank you to Christopher White for producing the podcast, making us sound good, even when Skype gives us hiccups and ground faults.

One last question for you listeners. Space may be our current final frontier, but the sentient robot race we create will be bored by it. I wonder where their James T. Kirk will go.