Empire City: The Untold Origin Story of the NYPD - Black History, For Real: NYPD's Secret Story | For Real, For Real | 9

Episode Date: October 23, 2024

"Woop! Woop! That’s the sound of da police! Conscious and Frankie welcome Dr. Chenjerai Kumanyika – host of Empire City: The Untold Origin Story of the NYPD. Dr. Kumanyika’s podcast is a deeply personal tale of his relationship to policing, the history of the NYPD and its long reaching impact in police departments across the nation. Are the police truly functioning as designed? Does their origin begin and end as slave catching patrols? Today’s conversation brings humor and depth to the exploration of that fraught history.Listen to Black History, For Real on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondry Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Empire City early and ad free. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry beautiful, black is beautiful. Yeah, we're about to get into another episode of Black History for Real. For Real, where we chronicle the stories of movers and shakers from black history all over the world. The stories will inspire you, educate you, and more often than not, leave you shaking your damned head.

I'm Francesca Ramsey. And I'm Conscious Lee. So Conscious, you chatted up with Dr. Chinjirai Kumanyika for this episode, all about his newest show, Empire City, covering the history of the NYPD. And we will hear some of that interview in a little bit, but what are your thoughts on his upcoming show? I think that his show is a bit revolutionary, actually.

I think that the stories that he's telling about the NYPD and the way that he's telling those stories are very captivating. I listened to a few of the episodes and I learned a lot. I learned that when it comes to the getting different people to police your community, like if you were in a Filipino community, we're gonna get a Filipino police officer

that actually came from the Philippine colonizing, like colonizing the Philippines, that there was a police officer that worked, that there was somebody that was a part of the police enforcement that was also very familiar with the colony they had in Philippines. And that's what they got in the Philippines. Like how can we keep these Filipinos

from resisting our colonialism? We should get another Filipino to police them. That's where it come from, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, you know, I have limited knowledge and experience in that realm, but from what I've learned, I have seen some really interesting things similarly with media, right?

Like when cops are presented in the media, especially the NYPD, they love to show black cops, you know, planting evidence and doing the wrong thing. And it really does feel like this concerted effort to change the way that we understand policing through this like diversity representation of it all. When it's like, not to say it doesn't happen, but it is a very biased depiction.

But I feel like there's something else percolating here. And that this is not the only thing you want to talk about. Listen, listen, listen. I feel like the ancestors, you know what I'm saying, lined it up so smooth where I'm preparing to go have this conversation about the empire of the NYPD at the same damn time that the Mayor Adams has been indicted for five federal charges of robbery. This is very, very interesting because now I imagine he has different ideas

about that cash bail he was talking about and he feel like he should get due process. But when he was just defending those people that got shot in the year subway, he didn't feel like they deserved due process. Ain't that crazy? He honestly, he feels like a super, like a comic book villain. Like the way that he acts and talks is just, it's so unbelievable. And you know what?

Due process comes for everybody. And I think that he is in for a much deserved rude awakening because the way that he has wrecked havoc on New York City and its residents, it's really been a sight to behold and you know he's gonna face the consequences of his behavior. Yes, and just so we're clear for people in the back is listening, right? Mayor Adams got indicted on five federal charges, bribery, fraud, solicitation of illegal foreign

campaign contributions, just a mess. I'm talking about not just a mess, a bit hypocrisy of democracy. Could this man right here been chest-tizing a lot of New Yorkers whole time? He break it a lot. Every accusation is a confession, as the girls say. And too, because I am individually broke, me and Francesca, so all you know, all this is allegedly,

we don't have no time to go with the police union in New York. You know, y'all do not play about New York's finest. All this is allegedly what we heard through the streets. We know that everybody, they're all making jokes. Everybody does deserve due process. Even when you think other people's don't deserve it, you feel me, you still should get it.

Shout out to you Mayor Adams. You know, it's a lot of times when we talk about policing, black women kind of get overlooked. We got the say a name hashtag, but it's like, is that enough though? Like I'm curious Francesca, what are your thoughts on police, you know, especially the overall state of policing in the US,

especially when it comes to how black women get positioned in that. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, this is something that we've talked about a number of times on the show, how black women are often at the forefront of these progressive movements, but then we don't get the credit or we're spoken over or the credit is completely stolen from us. And unfortunately, we've seen that too often when it comes to stories about police violence, that women, Black women are also victims of police violence, but unfortunately, our stories

don't always get the same level of attention. And when they do get attention, it's because Black women are at the forefront demanding that attention. And it's just so unfortunate that these types of situations are the ones that make Black women's voices heard. I mean, the founders of the Black Lives Matter movement were three Black women, and of course, we are appreciative for the work that they've done, but it is unfortunate that it continues to be at the expense

of the lives and safety of Black people, that those voices need to be centered at all. So, yeah. And you know what? I'm glad that this show is a space for us to have those conversations, but I also think we need to sometimes lighten the mood a little bit and so conscious,

I feel like you have a knack for that when it comes to artfully segueing from the heavy stuff to the lighter stuff. So I'm going to put the ball in your court because I feel like something's on your spirit. Yes. With the ball being in my court trying to provide what I'm going to call some conscious comedic relief. Okay.

Okay. Today, we definitely going to get a little deep and we just got a little deep from talking about, you know, black women and policing. But I'm gonna ask you the same question that I proposed to Dr. Tindrach. What is the blackest shit you've done this week? Oh, okay. Um, okay. The blackest thing that I've done this week is, uh, I handed my, my friend, uh, some hand lotion without any prompting. I saw those ashy ankles. I saw, it looked like a white sock poking out. I said, did you, she not wear socks. You know what? Let me just hand this to

you. And to her credit, she knew exactly what it was for. She said, it's gotten a little colder outside here in Los Angeles. The skin is reacting as it does. And you got to be ready to put a little, a little extra love on those ankles. But that's real love. That is love. Like I can't hear you out here, crusty and dusty in the streets. Get your right. Get your right. Not with me. Not with me. If you listen on your own time, do what you own do. I have a brand to protect. We can't be out here.

Man, did y'all see Frankie, the one that be singing? Man, it looked like the lip was a buddy elbow. How ashy was that? Just a little dusty cloud like simmering around their feet. What about you? What's the blackest thing that you did this week? Man, I think the blackest thing I've done this week is I got some soul food on Sunday.

I had some oxtails, some cabbage and some yams. And I ate it with my grandma and my little sister. And I felt like that was the blackest thing that I had done all week. And so far I feel like I ain't un-topped it that much. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I think that's, you set the bar high. You know what, on that note,

let's hop into some black history for real and take a listen to your interview with Dr. Chinjirai Kunika. Black is beautiful. This man is uncovering and lifting some wild ass history that might get him put up on one of them lists. So we're going to make sure we looking out for this brother. Let me tell you something. As a country, Southern bumpkin, there's always tired of people being lost in the South.

So the North first to South paradigm and acting like what's going on up North is not reflective to a lot of the white first the South paradigm and acting like what's going on up north It's not reflective to a lot of the white supremacy down south watching. Oh, I say listening to the podcast is very Refresh we gonna get into some heavy things today That might make you a little uncomfortable and make you look at the empire that you've grown to Love and being indoctrinated by a little bit different, you know, I'm saying you might look at it sideways Like they did what you know before we get into all that though, let's start off a little light. It ain't no wrong answers.

You know what I'm saying? But dead ass doc, what is the blackest shit you've done this week? The blackest thing I've done this week. There's a seafood spot that I love up in Harlem, 125th Street, it's called El Puerto. You know, it's times I took people there and I think they thought it was gonna be impressed

because they was like, oh, we going to New York, we going fancy. And I'm like, nah, bro, this joint is like, it has, they got like this fresh seafood out there. They sort of, you know, slow boil it for you and all this other stuff. You can put the seasoning in and they put it to you like in a foil,

they put it in a foil can, you know what I mean? I'm pissed, cause yo, I- A foil can? Not a foil can, sorry, I mean like a foil pan. They put it in like, you know, they put it in like, in other words, they don't give it to you in a regular packaging.

It's like a foil joint. It already look like leftovers when you get it. That's the point I'm trying to make to you. And it's like, it's so good. And I like to go all the way up there and get that sometime. My wife be getting mad at me cause it's not really practical, so good. And I like to go all the way up there and get that sometime. My wife be getting mad at me because it's not really practical to do it,

but it's, you know what I mean? I'm like, yo, sometimes that's what it gotta be. You know what I mean? So that for me, that was maybe one thing I did. My follow-up question. What has been the blackest response you've seen to mayor of New York getting indicted? What has been the blackest response you've seen to Mayor of New York getting indicted? What has been the blackest response?

Woo, well, you know, I mean, I mean, obviously black, black Twitter or whatever the hell it's called now has been going up in all kinds of funny ways. Somebody had a rat, like the rat was like the Don, like tell Adams it was me, cause you know, he'd been going after the rats. That was pretty funny. But I think in some ways the Blackest response was that we know that because this is run

by the FBI, that as much as there's a lot of Black folk in New York celebrating right now, this is not about us. But through protests, what I'm seeing is Black folk have a tendency that when we see America going in a certain direction, we make it about us. We did it with the Civil War. You know, Lincoln wasn't really about us, but we make it about us. We did it with the Civil War. You know, Lincoln wasn't really about us, but we made it about us. And to me, that's the blackest thing

I see black folk doing right now. You know what I mean? Yeah, that was the blackest thing I seen was the response at the press conference, but he had the bull horn and he was so loud. He was so loud that you could not like ignore him. So the whole, you anti-black, you da da da, I'm like, they on your ass, black man, they on your ass.

But I think that's the thing though to me is that to me, one of the blackest thing is as a black person being able to call another black person out for being anti-black or being able to call another black person out for moving in a particular way, it has bad impacts on other black people. That point you make about black folk being able to call out black person out for moving in a particular way that has bad impacts on other black people. That point you make about black folk being able to call out black folk, I think that's so important because what you see is Eric Adams and other politicians, they try to wrap themselves with black people to protect, to give themselves that racial cover is what I call it.

You know what I'm saying? And it's like, you know, you see him doing that and then it becomes hard because if people are trying to critique him and offer invalid principle critiques of him, he's saying he's gonna claim it's a racist or some kind of racist attack. So when you see black folk offering those critiques, that's important. As I'm listening to the episodes,

I'm thinking about like, damn, so they got this idea from getting other people to police their communities from a colonial project in the Philippines. And today in the news, we got this black ass mayor getting this black ass indictment for corruption and for a whole bunch of other things. So I'm learning that basically it wasn't even about like community policing. It wasn't about, I'll be honest with you, before I heard your episode,

I thought that one of the driving forces behind getting people to police the community they grew up in because they would produce police violence. Can you speak to just like your research specifically in like being a New Yorker, how the history of the NYPD makes you view the NYPD? Right now, the NYPD is a majority minority organization, meaning that as much as we talk

about the NYPD and white supremacy, the face of that white supremacy is more, there's more black and brown officers in NYPD than white officers. And the NYPD fought that though. Now they like to show it off, right? They like to do the diversity two-step and pull all the officers out and talk about how they respect the community. But the reality of it is that they fought that,

you know, like tooth and nail to keep, and you're gonna hear those stories in Empire City. And, you know, even, and I'm gonna say this, even a moment when you had some black officers who at a certain moment did stand with the community because in the 60s stuff got so real and I think that when you see the NYPD today every time there's an incident they try to write it off this was a rogue cop maybe he had bad training maybe it was this and that well I know a cop who did this

and this and that but when you understand that this history is consistent patterns that has happened for 180 years, and when you understand how the system was designed, like, I'm talking about, like, not, not, not, you know, your boy saying something, giving you, like, one sentence about slave patrols, I'm talking about, I'm going to give you all the receipts. I'm going to give you the documents that shows you

what they designed this thing for. And that, I think, is like, the documents that shows you what they designed this thing for. And that I think is like, it just hits you different. It hits different. The way you named the podcast, just centered around the concept of empire, to me, it makes me think about intelligent design a lot and how a lot of times in our community, when we're talking about the police and policing, we tend to talk about how, you know, the police are not feloness, they working by design.

You being a professor and having the reigns, what are your thoughts on police reform and the idea that the system, the empire, the policing happens the way that it is supposed to happen? York ain't the only empire city, you know what I mean? If you understand that police was about protecting capital, protecting white supremacy, all those things, those things are still true.

But I don't like to say it like that because what happened is that I think you're actually sometimes not speaking to moments of black agency and the agency of not just black folks, but all the people who push back. You know what I mean? And you're also giving credit to the system. They had all their stuff planned out and it worked.

They still figuring it out at every moment. And at every moment, they got to fight us and then innovate. And so Empire City shows you those moments of struggle so that you don't just believe that like, this was just something that ain't changed and you're not respecting all those moments of change. So that's kind of, it's a little bit of nuance because I don't want people to feel like I'm soft peddling it.

I don't think, you know, but it's like, I'm saying, no, I think it's a more powerful indictment to say that this system is not by design, it is adapted and in some ways become worse. I'll say as a son of two convicted felons, both that are probably looking at incarceration right now while we, as we speak, I know a lot about policing. I know a lot about the empire of the small town that I live in, you feel me? I'm from, you know, in Texas. In me thinking about what happens with the visceral state of policing, you got this real powerful scene, grappling with the history of Seneca Village and talking to your four-year-old

daughter. And, you know, one day you in the Central Park with your four year old daughter at a place that used to be Seneca Village, it was formerly a home of 19th century free black settlement. There was a moment you felt unsafe at the park and your daughter was just chilling. Here's a little clip from it.

As I sit playing in the sandbox within Yola, I see a police officer approaching the edge of the playground, and my body instinctively stiffens. I look down, and she's still playing, completely carefree. Part of me wants to freeze her in this moment, but then something comes over me. The police are already a part of her world. I've seen them in the already a part of her world. I've seen them in the cartoons she watches and her toys.

Then they're even cops at her school. And I start wondering, what is she actually picking up from all that? And Yola, may I ask you a question? What do you think the police do? She puts down a sand shovel, and her eyes start back and forth, searching for the right answer. I mean, that is what the police say their job is.

But when I hear her say it, I start to panic. Why did that moment make you panic so much? Well, you know, I mean, that was, that's the real question that all of us face. You can't escape it if you're a Black parent. And if you're, you know, a parent of any ethnicity or race who wants to, you know, educate your kids about the real, about the police. So my daughter at the time was four years old. And I started realizing that actually I'm sitting here asking this question,

but police are already in her life because their programs are moving forward. Like police in her schools. I started becoming more attuned to all the ways the cops are showing up in like cartoons. I started watching cartoons like, different. I'm looking at the cartoons like, wait a minute, that's just cops.

Oh, wait a minute. Is that Batman? Is Batman just a cop? Oh, Green Lantern, cop, like everything, Paw Patrol? But then one day even on Achille, they showed up talking about something. Police are our friends. I ran in the living room like, wait,

you know, how to turn that off. And so I realized that history was the way in because I don't want to give her their narrative, which is the police keep us safe and just it ends there. And I also don't want to just give her my political talking points. I want her to have her own discovery of, a sort of journey of discovery.

And I realized what she needs to know is what we all need to know. What is the actual factual history of this? How did this thing emerge? You know what I mean? I mean, you could just say police came from slave patrols, but first of all, that's not only that, it also has to do with capital and all these other things.

And it's like class repression, it has to do with policing gender, but it's also about saying like, we all need to know what actually happened. And that factual historical basis allows me to have that conversation with someone who might think different than me. I personally, when it comes to this question of police reform, like, you know,

I've seen the conversations go around and around. I live my life as a black man in America. I found the abolitionist perspectives to be the smartest. I mean, they just gave the explanations that made the most sense when they say, you know, all this punishment does not actually get us where we need to go. But the beauty of the history is that even if you totally disagree and love police, we can still come in on a historical questions and start from that common basis. I mean, to be honest with you, I got an eight year old and a six year old and I'm currently figuring out different ways to try to drop tidbit pieces of the reality that I

know that is awaiting them when they are out of their innocence without trying to push them all the way out of it. My son, you know what I'm saying, sometimes he talks about being a police officer, you feel me? And as a dad it's like I don't want to discourage my son from what he wants to do. I want him to experience the world for himself, but I don't want to make it where I'm trying to take. I'm trying to protect his innocence so much that it becomes unsafe because you and I know the reason why you freeze up is because you know

you can get your ass whooped. You know that you can be, you know what I'm saying, racially profiled. You know that you can be criminalized. You know that your freedom or your, you know what I'm saying, life can be taken away from you whenever that that's all it becomes about. And you recognize that, that. You know that your freedom or your, you know what I'm saying, life can be taken away from you whenever that the armed force becomes a mob.

And you recognize that, that, that, that, that, like with, with threat, the danger that has, but you also, as a father, you don't want to take the innocence from your kid. Now Francesca, I know you ain't got your own little boogie eaters, your own little little crump snappers running around, but you've been a kid before. That is true. And my question is, do you remember how you viewed cops as a kid?

What do you think about that? Oh yeah, I mean, as a kid, you know, I think I had the same view a lot of kids that I was growing up with had, that like cops were somebody to be respected and a little feared, like they're the ones that are going after the bad guys. But I also realized, you know,

I went to Catholic school, and I lived in a very integrated, a very diverse and integrated neighborhood. And in many ways, I think my parents went out of their way to kind of shield me from the realities of what it meant to be a Black person in the world. And so for that reason, my view was kind of limited in scope as to what the police actually did and how they functioned.

So when I was a kid, I just looked at them as like, oh, that's their job. It's right along with like, maybe you're a fireman, maybe you're a doctor, maybe you're a policeman. Like, policeman was just in that long list of respected jobs that adults did that protected the community? No, that's a real last response. That's a real last response. Because I know that sometimes we can move away certain jobs from the actual humans that do them, and we forget that these are just

working class jobs. Don't get me wrong, some people can take on their job a little too serious, so their job can lead to pain and suffering. It doesn't negate though, that these are working class jobs or jobs that people work and that's how they pay their bills. Some people flip burgers, some people incarcerate people, some people, you know, cray wallpaper, you know what I'm saying? Shout out to you. You know, different people have different jobs, you know? My question though, my follow-up question is, what do you wish you would have known as a kid

about the police that you didn't know? I mean, one thing that I know now is how much media shapes our understanding of the police. You know, I'm somebody that grew up watching Law and Order. And I love Laura as an actor. Law and Order is like the pinnacle. That's the job you want in New York. If you can book that show, it's a stepping stone

into the next phase of your career. And it really frames the police in a way. Even when police are doing the wrong thing, it's always framed as like, but they're doing it for the right reasons. Or a bad apple. Or they're a bad apple. But even if they, and if they're a bad apple,

everyone is like, no, we won't stand for this, right? And again, it really, and even like some things like superhero movies even kind of perpetuate this idea of who the police are and like what justice means and what it means to be a criminal and right and wrong and all of those things, I really don't think it was until I got into adulthood that I was really able to understand that. And also just understanding, like, who gets criminalized

and what behavior is criminalized. And also, like, what leads people to crime. That's not to say that, like, there aren't consequences for criminal behavior, but, like, our understanding of what it means to, you know, steal Pampers, for example, like, or if you start doing drugs, which again, it has been criminalized, but like my understanding of addiction now

is very different from, you know, when you do dare in high school and like, so coming to drugs is like a moral failing. Like you did something wrong. Some like you are a bad person. You made bad choices rather than a combination of things, which is often like a victim of circumstance where you live, unequal opportunities, your parents' economic status, you know, also drugs being pumped into our community. Like, there's so many things that lead people to drug usage.

So it's similarly just like, you don't always know what you don't know. And I think that that's been, like, the biggest eye-opener for me in adulthood. And I can definitely say that that's true when it comes to my understanding of the police. You made a few points. And one of the points that you made

is thinking about how ingrained, I'm gonna call it copaganda, how ingrained copaganda is into our society and how even in the black community, Hollywood has figured out different ways to sell us narratives, but we are in fact as well, we're like raging on for the

copaganda. We know that there's a recent hit movie that came out, the black folks was like, I gotta watch this, gotta watch that. Bad Boys, the whole Bad Boys series is copaganda. The whole Bad Boys franchise. I'm talking about the whole franchise is just how can we humanize the illegitimate violence of police while also paying them to be the good guys that always able to bring social order. How can we humanize the illegitimate violence of police while also paying them to be the good guys that always able to bring social order? In fact, I was with my son watching the Avengers

and I'm telling my wife, like, you know what I'm saying? She been against it when I was 17 so she know I'm with the shits. I'm like, baby, you don't find it funny that Captain America, he basically a law man that's bringing order to the entire world, saving the entire world. Thanos to me looked like the indigenous other. So now you got all these Avengers, they police, you know what I'm saying? They 12, you feel me? These are super powered, vigilant officers. You feel me?

It's just like you can't look past the way that we indoctrinated to view policing in a way that make you want to start calling out bad policing. It's like, go ahead, go ahead. So you're the antagonist going against the protagonist. Yeah. Let's get back into your chat with Dr. Chinjirai. Speaking of like the history and us talking about being me and dads right now, man,

you give the audience a entry point to who your father was to you. But there he is, my dad. A black man about six feet tall, wearing a dark fitted suit and a skinny tie. He looks like me. He's moving, interacting with others. He's alive.

I want him to walk out of the screen so I can hug him. But the more I watch, the more I feel confused and angry because this video is surveillance footage shot by a counterintelligence unit of the New York Police Department. Just out of curiosity, man, knowing that this is a big moment for you and, you know, it definitely can be emotionally evoking. Tell me a little bit about your pops and how was it seeing the footage of him?

I had never seen, you know, video footage of him. He died in 93. That was before the Instagram age, you know what I'm saying, where you were video, even How was it seeing the footage of him? I had never seen video footage of him. He died in 93. That was before the Instagram age, you know what I'm saying? Or video, even phone camera age. So somebody sent me this clip and I saw this video of him. Actually, they sent me a database. And I said, my dad might be in here.

And I spent hours searching the database. It was the New York's database of surveillance. And I see this video and it's my dad. It's black and white video. He's young, he's moving around. And yo, I felt like I wanted to hug him. I hadn't seen my pops. But it was, then I had to realize like,

this is NYPD surveillance footage. The reason why this footage exists is because these people were surveilling, surveilling my dad, targeting him, and stopping black people basically from fighting for black liberation, right? That was the purpose of that department. And part of the reason why I wanted to start there

is because so many of the conversations we have are about incidents of police brutality and murder, right? And then the debate becomes, was this a rogue incident? Was it reflective, you know, blah, blah, blah? It's like, but this was different. This was a department that was created to surveil, infiltrate, provoke, and stop black people who were fighting for black liberation.

And that was, and so it gave me a new connection to my father. This happened in 1964, right? So I'm getting to know a version of my father that I never knew in person, cause he discussed it, but you know what I'm saying? I'm seeing him when he was younger, when he was in it. And it's deep.

And so I feel like this journey has also been about me getting closer to my pops and understanding what he's still for. Man, and that's something that I appreciate about the podcast is because it was able to highlight how a lot of times we get caught up in those spectacle instances of violence when it comes to police brutality.

And we don't think about the everyday camouflage instances of just extra judicial law or them, you know what I'm saying? Collecting all this evidence or, you know, surveilling us or taking our autonomy. But speaking of Yo Pox, Yo Pox was definitely on or receiving in some heavy ass police surveillance. And we still dealing with this type of surveillance today. The NYPD used facial recognition in 22,000 cases. Yes, 22,000

cases between 2016 and 2019. Black people were more likely to be misidentified for the tech, which is a double whammy, man. My question, how do we take our understanding of the history of the NYPD surveillance systems and use that to understand the state of Black America in relation to police today. I teach at New York University and write, and one of my colleagues is named Meredith Bussard. She has a book called More Than a Glitch that talks about how some of these racist systems

are built into AI. She's one of many scholars in that field who talk about how this stuff is not a glitch, it's baked in to these systems. So that's one thing. So that means that when policing brings in tech, they're not bringing in something neutral, they're bringing something that already has empire politics

embedded and coded into that tech already. And then they are police, which is already about empire. So I think, but I think when you look, when you go back, I think what you see is that all those techniques of surveillance, I think I didn't understand how far back they went back, I think what you see is that all those techniques of surveillance I think I didn't understand how far back they went. There's a scholar's name is Matt. Garriglia He appears in the podcast and his whole field is surveillance so he really looks at you know this history and you realize that

One of the takeaways we can take is that the way policing developed was really very much in concert with colonialism. So they're bringing in colonial techniques. And I think that's important because what you got to understand is the techniques that are being used in our cities. I mean, if you live in certain parts of the neighborhood, you know what I'm saying? You live like, you know, like, look, I live in New York now, but I used to live in Philly and will probably move back. You know what I'm saying?

I don't live too far from North Philly. If you live in North Philly, the idea that the police are a colonial entity is very clear and visible and material. You see it, you know what I'm saying? Because you see how they come in. But these are tactics that they learned that are not about keeping you safe. They're about keeping you in line.

They're about keeping you in order, the surveillance and all those things. So I do think though, it's a little tricky and I'm curious to get your take on this conscious. Like sometimes when I think about a world that would have less policing, I wonder what role technology might need to play in that. Because technology is so caught up in the carceral state

the way it is now, I think that it will only, you know what I'm saying, makes sense that it has to be some way a part of us living in a state that had less policing or a state that didn't have any at all. I think that based off of how a lot of us now have been indoctrinated, think about our children, right? And how much they all know about the world based off of what technology tells them. You feel me?

How much our kids gonna buy into policing based off of what technology tells them. You see what I'm saying? It's up to me because like from an educational standpoint, I really view technology as being another tool of education. And don't get me wrong, miseducation is happening as well. And though there are also, there can also be a tool of miseducation. I would assume that at the very minimum, it would have to be a part of the educational piece and how we disseminate information and getting individuals to think about alternatives instead of discipline or instead of executing people, you know what I'm saying?

How we come to have conflict resolution that's not always caught up in killing the body or punishing the body. You were talking earlier to how the NYPD has taken on this multicultural, we will fight for the Rainbow Coalition to be a part of the policing. In one of your episodes, I feel like you speak to how there is a history of the NYPD being able to co-op different aesthetics from different groups they policeed while making it like, we're trying to do this to help y'all, when in actuality, it's just the empire co-opting different individuals' bodies to ensure the state. Can you speak to

this a little bit more? Absolutely. And I should say a brief quick note is that this doesn't only happen with black people. You're gonna hear in Empire City how this question of how the NYPD comes into communities is gets applied to all kinds of folks, Italians, Irish, you know what I'm saying, all different kinds of folks, you know what I mean? So, and but black people are kind of like the last people to be let into the NYPD officially.

But what, this was a space of learning for me, conscious, you know, where I was like, yo, cause I kind of looked at it like, why would black people back then want black cops? Like you should know, because I'm now living on the other side of this 180 years, 200 years of history. And it's, but, you know, I actually had to learn it, you know, they were actually, it makes sense.

You know, we interview Mariam Kaba and, you know, But I actually had to learn that they were actually, it makes sense. We interviewed Mariam Kaba and Sister Mariam, a brilliant genius and just incredible organizer. She said, listen, she said, one thing is that black people understand that if they can't have police officers, they can never be real citizens. So even if we think that the issue is like,

even if we think it's impractical or whatever, you have to understand that that's kind of like a version of a freedom dream, right? And what really educated me was that one of the big advocates for that in New York was a brother named Thomas Fortune. And Thomas Fortune was, he ran a newspaper called the New York Age, and he was determined to integrate Brooklyn's police force and New York's police force. And so seeing black folks having that dream back then,

early on in the experiment, that we can have cops that represent us, that was educational for me, because I had to respect where they were coming from at that time. What you see though, is first, the NYPD completely fight against them. They took some of those initial black cops,

Moses Cobb and them, they say, you gotta work as doorman. They wouldn't even let them patrol, you know what I mean? But then what you see is the NYPD kinda goes, oh, wait a minute, you know, because they start realizing that black cops are very useful when there's an accusation of racism. You know, when a white cop has killed a black person, they was like, we can roll out this black face

and say, look, it's not about racism. And it becomes an effective symbolic tool. And so once they get onto that, it's kind of like this thing start to loosen up a little bit, but then they actually face a different battle, right? Which is now the kind of leaders understand the power of having black cops putting a black face

on that state terror. So just watching that whole journey all the way to today, where you literally have Mayor Eric Adams, right? He's a black cop, he's mayor, and yet he's still doing the work. I don't care how black this man's skin color is, he is doing the work of white supremacy. He's not helping the liberation struggles we need for housing, for justice, for food, for healthcare, for transportation. What he's doing is defending cops who shoot us down at Sutter Ave for a 290 fare,

and then defend the cops that did it, and don't even go to the hospital for the bystander who got shot in the head. Man, I think what you just said was so powerful. To me, it's a rhetorical question. I like how opposed it is. What does it mean to have black faces in high places when those black faces still operate the same as the white folks did before they got into that space?

Because to me, we talked a lot about representation and then we'll get lost in that is the functionality. It's that if we have a black slave master and we have a white slave master and both of these slave masters lead to black death and black suffering, what is the uniqueness of having a black slave master other than the person that's taking on the violence has to look at somebody and look like them putting it on them? I think that that's a question that we have to grapple with, especially in this upcoming election and how we hold people accountable is that black faces and high spaces, it's not enough.

Especially in an empire that is structured in a certain way, which leads me to, you know what I'm saying, kind of one of the final questions, you know what I'm saying, taking us all up out of here a little bit. What are you hoping people take from this show? And what do you hope it changes about the state of policing in America, if you can at all? The conversation about police,

it feels cyclical to me. It feels like this, I'm seeing people say the same things. And I think a lot of people feel like that. And that's why a lot of people have grown tired of this conversation, because you kind of know what's going to happen, right? It's like somebody's going to get killed. They're going to say the cop felt he was resisting arrest. If they acknowledge any wrongdoing, they bring out some black cops, bring out a black police chief, you know, a black police commissioner, you know?

It's like we've seen these things happen again. We're talking about reform, use of force training. I mean, what I want people to understand is that these conversations are hundreds of years old, and we need to stop having that same conversation and stop pretending like this three-car model you're trying to run is new. And I really wanted to put the whole history out there in that way so that people have access to that, and at least you can enter those conversations on some actual, factual,

historical basis. So that's one thing I really want to do because I do want to create room for different people who might have different solutions to be able to enter in. So that's one thing. I also think that I'm somebody who makes media, I make journalism, but I think if my podcast just sits on its feet and sits there and people listen and kick back and eat popcorn, I mean, I want you to do that. You should definitely do that. Take some do that. You should definitely do that.

You know, take some time off. Definitely do that. Listen to Conscious Lee, listen to Black History for real. Listen to our conversation. Listen to Empire City. Listen to some of the other powerful media out there, but it can't stay there. So I'm trying to also explore ways of impact when I'm working with different community organizations to really ask, not to come down from Empire City, but to say, what is useful about this to you?

What's the conversation we need to promote and uplift? What is the revolutionary work that we need to support and make this work a part of that work? Because in the end of the day, here's the reality. As long as you have powerful people, they're going to innovate and create some kind of police force to try to reinforce that social order. So I don't want to seem hopeless and kill our hope, but our hope and inspiration and safety is going to be found in consistent ongoing struggle pushing back against

that. I don't think there's going to be a historical endpoint here, even though I do think we can get to a better place. Big shout out to Dr. Chinjiraj, host of Empire City, associate professor of journalism at New York University. I hope they know that they are privileged to have you, brother, and you are doing some amazing work, man. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I got to say, Contras, I am very impressed by your interviewing skills. You know, I've been working on my game a little bit, you know.

Shout out to the coach and the producers. They're looking very nice and doing really good. I wouldn't be surprised if an interview turned into a debate with somebody. Hopefully not. But sometimes with me and my impulsivity, it might happen. Well, I will happily be the moderator if a debate unfolds. I think that you and I will be able to handle it. But we've also got things to do, lives to lead,

Black History to dig up. So we do appreciate y'all for tuning into this episode of Black History for Real. Now Black History for Real is hosted by me, Francesca Ramsey. And me, Conscious Lee. Black History for Real is a production of Wondery. This episode was written and produced by Morgan Givens.

Sound design by Sanya May. The theme song is by Terrace Martin. Lindsey Gomez is our development producer. The coordinating producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Our associate producer is Sonia Mae. Matt Gantt and Morgan Givens are our senior producers. The executive producers for Wondery is Marshall Louie, Aaron O'Flaherty, and Candace Mariequez-Reyna. Follow Empire City on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry

app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey. If you have a tip about a story you think we should investigate, please write to us at Wondry.com slash tips.