Empire: World History - 116. Isfahan: The City of Dreams

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

Isfahan, half of the world. It had been a city for years, but at the end of the 16th century Shah Abbas made it his capital and totally transformed it. With the immense wealth he brought to the city, Isfahan became home to some of the most beautiful architecture the world has ever seen. But it was also a place of pleasure, full of delicious food and exciting parties. In many ways the city encapsulated the golden age of the Safavids. Listen as William and Anita are joined by Sussan Babaie to discuss Isfahan. For bonus episodes, ad-free listening, reading lists, book discounts, a weekly newsletter, and a chat community. Sign up at https://empirepod.supportingcast.fm/ Twitter: @Empirepoduk Email: [e-mail] Goalhangerpodcasts.com Producer: Callum Hill Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcasts, add free listening, and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mpower.com. Hello and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arnan. And me, William Duremberg. And today we're delighted to be joined by Sasan Babi, who is Professor of the Art of Iran and Islam at the Cross. The Thought Old Institute, which is the author of a book that is beautiful and perfect for us to talk about all things beautiful and perfect.

Isfahan and its palaces, statecraft, Shiism and the architecture of conviviality in early modern Iran. Thank you so much for being with us. And you are an antidote because we've spent quite a few weeks on this podcast talking about gougain and a pillogen and a strip in a flesh and, yeah, you know, sort of all sorts of really grim things. pouring gold over heads of crab princes and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about the beautiful, the wonderful, the magical city of Isfahan. It's located at the center of the Iranian plateau. And it was made the capital of Persia at the end of the 16th century.

So, you know, you become a capital. And you become fabulously wealthy. And it's the site of some of the most stunning architecture anywhere in the world ever, ever, ever. But it's also the capital of pleasure full of wonderful food, fashion parties. Some might even call it the home of sex, drugs and rock and roll. But before we get into all of that, and we will, can we have some more context on the period that many have called the golden age of the Safavid Persians? So we're in the rule of Shah Abbas.

That's right, isn't it? So tell us first of all who he was. Yes, thank you. It's always a joy to talk about Shah Abbas, whom I'm sure gouged eyes. we know he did because of the fact that he didn't want any of his sons, for instance, to be his competitors. But nevertheless, Shahabas was the fifth ruler of Safavid dynasty and a real brilliant strategist, it seems, where he managed to find a way to balance the conflict that was between the Safavid and Ottoman.

territories on the northwestern parts of what we call today Iran, and also at the same time conflicts on the northeastern side with the Uzbeks, with the Chebanids, and figured out how to hold one group and settle one side and then come back and finally defeat or come to a peace treaty with the Ottomans, which basically means that the greatest accomplishment from a military point of view was settling conflicts and securing borders. And appropriately enough, in that wonderful miniature of him, is it Jahangir and the two hugging over the map of Asia, with the lamb lying down with the lion? Well, it's lamb lying down with the lion.

Jahangir is the lion, of course. Shahabas is seen as the lamb subdued, as it were, from a Jahangir point of view. But the thing about it is that Shahabas' accomplishment of settling the borders, so to speak, and signing a treaty, a peace treaty, that of Amazia, meant that he begins to restructure governance and also plan on transfer of the capital from Asvin to Esfahan. Okay, so just to give it a little bit of a date anchor for those people who are scratching the head going, which period of history are we talking? We're talking, so a man born in 1571 who comes to power in 1587. It's not an easy rise to power for him because this is a

Persia in turmoil. Was he always an impressive man? Was it, what were his strengths? Well, I mean, we understand him to have been an impressive man, but that's also largely the writings around him, both from a Persian point of view, chroniclers. Pretty much all of them are writing in his court for him. So in other words, not necessarily able to say anything negative or critical about the man, but also European writing, which glorifies Shohabas as the reformer as the great king, who is capable of bringing Iran to peace and building of Esfahan, the new capital, is a really high mark on his career. The sort of organizing of the military forces creating an opportunity for, in fact, a restructuring of the governance too. And it's important

to say that Shahabas did something that no one else had done, which is said Isfahan should be my capital. And what is the significance of that decision? Why did he decide that? The decision to transfer the capital from Ghazvin, which was north-central Iran to Esfahan, was related to the wish, it seems, to really start fresh, as it were. In other words, trade and structure of governance and connecting with routes of trade that would bring the Persian Gulf and the Caspian Sea together, in a way, this was celebratory after the signing of the peace treaty with the Ottomans. There's a certain sense of confidence here. And the move to Esfahan by the authors, Persian Chronicles, often point to the beauty of the region to good weather.

Plentiful water supplies are always so important. And so the choice is the river Zayandarud and the old city of Esfahan, the Saljuqwan, which was well north of the river. But when the decision is made, which is around 151991, that's when they start the building, the planning and building. But the capital is officially transferred in 1598. And is it a fully formed idea in his head? when he decides this is going to be his capital? I mean, what is it like when he has this vision for a new capital? Yeah.

So I tend to think that it's not just Shahabas, but that there is a whole community of people, advisors. Sheikh Bahai. Yeah, exactly. Grand thinkers like Sheikh Bahai. We don't know if he was an architect, but we do know that he was a mathematician, amongst other things.

So the point about it is that the decision, to move, generate a huge activity around planning. At first, he actually suggests restoring the old bazaars of the Saljuvaharan, but the local nobility resisted. They don't want him to come in and mess around with their particular sort of hold on the old city and its trade. So that's when he then decides to move the capital, the new capital, outside. of the old cities south of it towards what is a Maidana Asp, usually a vast space. Maidana Asp are present outside of city walls for mustering armies, for instance. Ghazvin had one of these. This is a very common practice. And so the footprint of that

Maidana Asp was next to a garden, an old garden. That's Nakhshajahan Gardens. And so they designed this whole thing with these two pivotal points. One is the Maidan, which the Maidan asked becomes a major urban centre, commercial, religious, political. And then they build this promenade Chajalbos. The two pieces really create a new city out of this space. And then they have to bring people into it. You have to populate it. Shabas had a reign of 42 years. How How long did it take him to, you know, build a city? Did he live to, you know, did he see it and enjoy it in his own lifetime? He did because he died in 1629.

So, I mean, the first 10 years are the years of beginning to construct the city planning and so forth. But he sees it to full fruition, the parts that he, in his reign, they set up. He sees it. So the Maidan is completed. The mosque is completed. is completed only with some tile work and the door and so forth after he dies during the time of his successor. The promenade is completed. It goes all the way over a magnificent bridge, Siosapol, about which Byron actually writes and has a gorgeous photograph. And then it goes

down south towards the foot of the mountains where there is a huge suburban garden built for Shahabas and company. And we should say that arriving in Isfahan from the interior, it's suddenly greener, there's suddenly flowers, there's water everywhere. It's feeling like sort of coming up from air, the depression of the desert is lifted, and suddenly you are in a vision of paradise. Yeah, and it is really designed as a green city. This we see it as it was designed and laid out.

It really feels and looks like a green city, which is extraordinary. That's what everybody writes about in the 17th century. Okay. One of the main things that he did, as far as I understand it, I mean, sort of, you know, to build Isfahan to the standard that he did is you need cash. Cold, hard cash, honey. And the way that comes in, I mean, he does a very clever thing with the Strait of Hormuz, which is, you know, geographically speaking, it is the gateway from Persia to the rest of the world.

But it was under the boot of the Portuguese for some time. And he changes that, doesn't he? And that brings in a lot of wealth. And he brings in the Brits. He brings in the East India Company. Yeah. And basically opening the door to commerce and creating opportunities for wide range of commercial links. And most important amongst those, perhaps, is the silk trade.

The production rises and the trade is essentially monopolized. And the silk becomes the purview for trade purposes of the Armenian community in Esfahan, which Shah Abbas transports forcibly from old Jolpah to Esfahan building or allowing them to build a new Jolpah. Where they remain to this day and you can go see their beautiful cathedral and lovely museum. Yeah, so he's, I mean, he's sort of, you know, trade brings wealth, but also he's able, because if you take control, of the Strait of Hormuz. And all these places, again, are in our news headlines because there's strategic importance of those. You know, geography doesn't change. Politics may change, but the Strait is the straight. He is able to charge taxes and, you know, sort of import duties

and export duties. That must bring in quite a wodge of money as well. Yeah, but can I just adjust that not only Strait of Hormos is taken back from the Portuguese, creating an opportunity for entering into the network of maritime trade, but all. also placing Esfahan in the kind of a route that is a north-south route smack in the middle of what is the Safavid territories. And this north-south is important because it connects the center to the northern routes through the Volga River. And that's really important because of the Ottomans. Ottomans had blocked the trade routes through their territories. So Shahabas manages to open new trade routes, and that's really crucial.

And this is how the East India Company and the Levant Company first arrived, don't they, in Persia, trading south from Muscovy, as it then is? Yes, and that's really crucial. In other words, creating links with the Tsarist Russia, creating links as far away as with Britain, for instance, opening opportunities for the East India Company. representatives to come in. But never do we forget the role of the Armenian community, a merchant community whose linguistic skills were enormous, who had a network, trade network that was really precursor to the multinationals of today. You know, from India to Britain, they connected everybody. I'm sitting talking to you from Delhi. And in the suburbs here, we have the earliest church in Delhi, which is an Armenian church in the far north or an Armenian burial shrine. And this is set up along with similar churches and community centres in Agra, in Madras and in Calcutta.

At this time, with this very strong Armenian network heading back to Julfa and Isfahan. And it's one of the great forgotten merchant networks. We remember the East Indy Company. we forget the incredibly powerful Armenian merchant communities that had these links right across the Levant. Those networks of India coming to Iran, the New Jolfa essentially, and also connect to, for instance, you said Levant, Aleppo is an important place for this Armenian community, merchant community that connects to Iran. And the Levant company, which also has a big factory there. And yes, and then move further to Marseille, for instance. So it's a hugely important network.

I mean, just to clarify, Isfahan did exist before Shah Abbas dreamt it in his own way, because we're saying there was a settlement here maybe as old as 2000 BC. So, I mean, there was always something here, wasn't there? Yes. And then there's the gorgeous, enormous Seljuk Mosque, which is one of the still to this day, despite all the wonderful editions put by Sharabas, the Seljuk Jamimazid is one of the great buildings of Isfahan and Iran. Yes, definitely.

And Esfahan really over centuries is the city that emerges out of what was the dominant settlement, known as Yehudi. So it was a Jewish settlement. It's really important to remember these histories that are so crucial to the identity of the city. So the Yehudiya and Jai and Shatistan come together becomes Esfahan. So what you said about the Jalme Mastjid, the great mosque of Esfahan, is actually right in that area of Yehudia, the Jewish quarter of Esfahan is in that neighborhood. Because when you go to Sfahana, you see the very strong Armenian presence, but of course you

no longer see the Jewish presence, which has now been extinguished within our own lifetime. Yes, as a local kid told me the so-called masjade jihadah, the Jewish mosque. You can still see that, you know? And that by which you mean the synagogue? It's the synagogue, exactly. So, I mean, most people have not been lucky enough to go to Isfahan. But, I mean, something I was reading, and you tell me, Suzanne, if this makes sense, but 400 years ago, the sort of time period that we're talking about,

we're talking about Isfahan a city larger than London, more cosmopolitan than Paris. Richer than both. filled with architecture the world had never seen before. That's correct, isn't it? Correct, yes. And it was a wondrous place as Europeans who come in all notice. For instance, all of them talk about how rich it is, how full of goods from everywhere it is. They talk about the May Don, the public square of Esfahan, as larger than anything they have seen. They note the promenade, the Chaharbo, where you can go and stroll up and down this tree-lined street. They notice the shops and the cafes and the cosmopolitan nature of Esfahan in the 17th century,

which begins to really get thicker and more busy, is really a noted distinction of the city at this time. Now, does Shah Abbas do what other rulers have done in the past, which is force artisans and architects to come and build his city? Or are they just attracted by the wealth that he is attracting because he's changed the balance of power here? Yeah, it's interesting because we know, for instance, Timor got everybody from everywhere he conquered to come to Samarland. He forced them. And he also looted, you know, marble from Delhi and brought them over. So Esfahan is not built like that. In a sense, it is built by people who are attracted to it because it becomes the major building site, actually. And it's not by force, but rather by very nature of the large-scale planning and building.

And I mean large-scale. We are talking about massive constructions planned through a master plan. that that's my firm understanding that it's master plan. It feels very much like a planned city. When you go to the main Maidan, it's like Trafalgar Square. It's not something's happened by accident. It's perfectly aligned. So what is the main Maidan?

I mean, again, you are our lonely planet guides here, both of you. So, I mean, I haven't been to the Medan. What does it look like? What does it feel? Like, how big is it? So Maidan is called the image of the world, Nakhshahjahan. It's that ambitious, you know. It's already self-confidence.

talks about how worldly it is. So the May Don was one of the two centerpieces, the pivots of the new urban development. It's a vast, vast open space actually, which was then given peripheral walls, these peripheral segments were arcades of shops, essentially. And the city, the new city, was entered through the old marketplace, the bazaars of the old city of Esfahan, which was the Saljuq city. Which are magnificent in themselves, these great vaulted bazaars.

So you would walk from the old city through these vaulted bazaars and enter the meidan through this royal entrance to the marketplace. And then the meadon would unfold before your eyes, this vast, long, rectangle with a massive congregational mosque at the south end of it, the palace entrance on the west side of it, and another, a kind of a smaller chapel mosque, private royal mosque.

I've only read accounts of this, but also a really sort of complicated watering system where, you know, these large, vast basins of onyx or marble are filling with water all through the day to cool them in the iron down and they're filled with the heads of roses. So the whole place is perfect. I mean, it sounds like a thing of, you know, sort of fantasy and imagination. Yes, it is fantasy in the sense that it is so vast the Maidan, and unless you stand by that rose, you cannot smell it. But it is true that it was extremely well laid out. It was, by the way, the proper size for Polo. And Polo was played in the Maidan.

In the miniatures, you see that. You can see that. Exactly. but it was also watched by the Shah and his guests from the balcony, the porch that was at the entrance of the palace, the Ali Rappu Palace, where the Maidan was the place for daily markets. You could have, for instance, let's say Saturday market for selling textiles or food of some kind in the Maidan.

You could have festivities, fireworks, processionals. there is a story about when some guests came, foreigners, their gifts were paraded along the sides of the Maidan, taken from in front of the great new congregational mosque, and then brought to the palace. In other words, sort of cleanse them, making it sound like these are not gifts from other kings, but from God, in fact. There is something really ceremonial about the space of the Maidan and its possibilities. I mean, you've mentioned both of you, the Great Mosque a few times, but I don't have a picture of it in my head yet. I'll read something that your great hero, Robert Byron, wrote about the Great Mosque. Robert Byron loved the Sheikh Dutful of Mosque. It's a really beautiful passage.

Just forgive me. He says, peering up towards the apex, 65 feet above the pavement, I have this pleasant feeling of unexpected vertigo. Each element, like the muscles of a trained athlete, performs its function with winged precision, he wrote. I love Byron. That's a wonderful description. So he's writing not about the great sort of public mosque, but about that small mosque of Sheikh Lutvullah,

which is a private mosque. It was a royal private mosque directly across from Ali Rahu Palace Gateway. But what it is, it's like a jewel box. and no one writes as beautifully about it as Byron does. It's like, I mean, to Isfahan, it's really the sort of Sistine Chapel almost, one of the very great architectural wonders of the world anywhere in any civilization ever. It's just... Can anyone go visit this private mosque?

Yes, of course. You can go and see it for yourself. And what about the great mask then? I mean, what was that like? So this one was a huge mask that had an entranceway, open. onto the Maidan with its minarets rising, these beautiful thin minarets rising. It looks like it is embracing you, inviting you into the mask, all covered in these tiles, intricate tiles. And then once you entered it, you would turn around through a little hallway

and enter a huge courtyard with these avons. It has four avons. This is an Iranian type of mask. And then you would enter the domed chamber in front of the Mejad, which is the most sort of sanctified part of the mosque. The distinction of this mosque is the way it stacks up, it looks like when you stand at the other end of the Maidan, you can kind of see the first Pichita, the entrance, then the second one, which is in front of the great dome, which rises even higher. And you have this feeling that you're turning on a skewed axis to turn towards Mecca. So it's an axis that is different from the axis of everyday life in the Maidan. The axis of the mosque is towards Mecca. And it really spiritually changes the way you feel or look or experience the space. But the contrast between these two mosques, on one hand, the open, big,

public mosque at the end and this small intimate straight Lutvullah mosque, which is covered. And the dome is like a peacock's tail with these eyes of the peacock descending down to the sides. You lie there, you sit inside this perfect space and you cannot move for an hour because you're just so hypnotized by the beauty of it. It is really beautiful on that level. But the private mask was not then for people to go and do the Friday prayer. That was really an iconic presence of the royal household's devotion, if you will, to the Shi'i teachings. And Sheikh Lothol, who was the father-in-law of Shohabos, was amongst the most important of the olamor, the learned, the religious learned, who helped establish the principles of Shiism in Iran of Safavid period.

One question before we leave the architecture, Suzanne, the role of colour, because the thing that makes this stand out from everything else in earlier architecture, like the Seljuk Mosque and so on, is this astonishing rainbow colors of the tilework of this period? Yeah, and it's everywhere. It's this kind of all over. There are. are like miles of tiles in different colors. There's nothing else like it anywhere else in the world, the tilework of Islam. Not that I can think of. And the profile of the domes are very sort of gentle rise or gentle drop, depending on what

you want to call it. These thin minarets, which are called goldaste. They are like flower bunches, you know. It's very pleasant to look at. And the light in Esfahan is extraordinary. And the Maidan gets these gorgeous reflections of light at different times of the day off of these tile works in ways that really make the Maidan a sensational place from a sensory point of view. Well, don't worry. We have more extraordinary sensations to come.

We'll take a break now. But join us after the break where we explore Isfahan, this jewel of a city, a little bit. bit more. Welcome back. So just before the break, we were being taken by just an exceptional tour guide, really, Suzanne Babi is with us still. You know, before we get into some of the promenades, and again, you're doing a lovely job of visualizing this for us. Abbas himself, I mean, I heard he was sort of quite personally involved in some of the beautification of his new capital. I mean, there's a story, is it true that he holds a candle for the artist Reza Abbasi? He's sketching some of the and it's him Abbas, Shah Abbas, the king himself who's holding the candle so he can see what he's doing.

Is that right? Yes, there is a note on that one that Shah Abbas. I mean, Reza Abbas, he gets his name. His Abbasi part is because he's a court artist and he gets that name from Shahabas actually. Whether this is apocryphal or not is beside the point. But what it says is that the Shah is very engaged in very many aspects, including the arts. the Europeans talk about him walking around the bazaar coming out of the palace, that he actually has said something to the effect that what's the point of being a king

if you cannot go into the city and be with people, for instance. So there are a lot of these stories about him coming out, being present, hosting events. And I would really love to think that while he may not, not be always walking around this city, but the joy of what this new city is representing. I mean, reveling in the beautiful, so there's another lovely story. And we'd love to get into the culture and the thinking of the time as well. But there's another lovely story about, you know, just this is this idea of kingship. And we've had so many Shars before in this series who don't engage with their people. You know, they're just cloisted up. They're with their harons. They don't

really, they don't knock that bothered or interested or just completely separated from. But there's a lovely story about him just sort of walking through the markets and, you know, just picking pairs of shoes that he likes and just taking them off shells from the bizarre saying, I'll have that and I'll have that and, you know, just reveling in this enormous sweet shop that he's created for himself. Yeah, exactly. And I think there's something to be said here about the fact that he is a king in a particular structure. This has to do with 12 or Shiism, with MME Shiism. These are there as kings on behalf of, if you will, the amams, especially the 12th Imam that she is believed is in occultation.

I don't understand what that means. Explain that. Sorry, the 12th Imam who is in occultation. What does that mean? So the she is who believe in the succession of the 12 descendants after Ali, the son-in-law of the prophet, it, the sort of the first of the shees. They believe that the 12th Imam, it's a Mahdi, he's a promised one. He goes into occultation, and Shihis, are still awaiting his return.

The return of the Mahdi got it. Exactly. It's the Messiah idea, right? So the Safavid Shahs, the articulation of why are they legitimate rulers, because the Ottomans considered them because they weren't Sunnis. Heretics, they were not legitimate kings. So the articulation of legitimacy has a great deal of different facets to it. And kingship in this context is based on ancient Iranian kingship, on Shi'i ideas on behalf of the Imam, and indeed they come out being more accessible. That's the point. He comes out because they have to be accessible. Susan, Anita mentioned Harim's a minute ago. One thing we haven't said, I think it's terribly important,

is that many of the builders of Isfahan are women. And you have one of the great courtisans, and you also have the grandmother, Dilaram Khanum, who's one of the great patrons of this new astonishing city. Talk about the women of Isfahan. Yeah, I think the women, we know about the women of the royal household primarily. So the grandmothers, for instance, there are two structures in the newly developed Royal Bazaar complex, which are patronized by two grandmothers from the Royal Court, Shahabos's grandmother. Who are very powerful. They are very powerful. They are very important and obviously have access to wealth. But the city, the massive planning and construction of the

the city is largely due to the work of what is called the Kulamon. These are the elite slaves of the household, of the Safavid household. They are of the Christian background as children. They are brought into the royal household. They grow up actually with the Shah. For instance, one of them, Allah Verdi Khan is a major general. he's the builder of that amazing bridge, Allah Verde Khan Bridge, that crosses Zoya and the Rood. Is that the one where the singers today sit underneath the vaults and you can hear all the...

Well, that's the Khadu bridge, probably. But these are entertainment places. People went to the bridges to watch fireworks and boating in the water because the two bridges, they had sluces. You could close them up like dams and have a... little lake in the middle. So the point is that there is a large number of different people involved in building this massive new city. I mean, you've made it sound like Party Central, and I just want to know a little bit more about life, you know, if you're not Sharbas in Isfahan. Was it the wealth expressed in music and food and culture more generally?

Yes. Actually, Party Central is really interesting because there was an accusation. scholarly accusation that the Safavids were not really religious and they partied all the time and loved having these massive zeophat gatherings for food and drinking and whatnot. That is true, but it is a form of statesmanship. So in other words, if you hold a big party and feed everyone generously in the company of the Shah, That is a form of expression of what this form of kingship is about. They weren't hiding behind a curtain not ever seen. Quite the contrary, the presence is really an important part of it.

But that means that people of Esfahan could see, for instance, some of these parties, if they stood in the Maidan, they could see that the Shah and his company are up there, having musicians and dancers and food. There's a music room, isn't there, in the Aligapu Palace, yeah. It's just amazing. In other words, the cultural dimension is, in fact, a great sort of rich, sensory-rich environment. Suzanne, tell us about the mansion of the 12 Tubans while we're on Party Central. Yes, okay.

That is in reference to a famous Raspi or Koruzzi. who would then make money based on charging visitors to the House of Disrepute, if you will. But in those days, not considered a House of Disrepute at all, but the Centre of High Culture. It was perfectly publicly accessible. We know that such places did exist around the Maidon of Esfahan, and there were cafes and taverns, and perfectly good for the purposes of entertainment, across social classes in Esfahan. At 12thumans was the initial entry fee for your first visit.

That was the initial entry fee. But, you know, the presence of the courtesans in the court is documented. We know that, for instance, in these big receptions, there would be dancers, and these are courtesans, musicians, many of them, women as well. So it's very much an integrated sort of, social setting. And we see pictures of them, of course, in the wonderful wall paintings, the Chehazootun and so on. Exactly. What is the Chehazootoon? Chehelsutun, meaning 40 columns, is the name of a palace, the largest formal palace in Esfahan.

Gorgeous place. Where the receptions of 400, 500 people who would be entertained and fed and just gather in this magnificent room. See, you've said Fed again, and it may be because we're doing this at round about lunchtime, but what did feed mean? I mean, what was the kind of cuisine like in Isfahan? To this day, Isfahan is one of the great foody capitals of the world, and I'm sure in Sharabas's day, it was even more so. Yes.

So the idea of food sharing food is what drives all these parties in a way. So food, from what we gather, when everyone was seated, and there was a protocol of seating. So the closest to the Shah were the favoured ones. And then you would seat them. So the whole building actually has a structure. And we're talking about his palace? Yes, this palace of the Chehelsutun, for instance,

has a tallar, a porch, a wooden pillared hall, which has three segments to it. And it looks towards the gardens and this magnificent pool. and people were seated according to their rank and closeness and distance with relation to the Shah. And then music was played and then food would come. So the food would come through courses. Already we are talking about courses of food. I'm actually salivating at the thought of this.

I'm not because I want to know what's on the platters. What kind of courses are food? What are we got on the menu? So Europeans complain that these people eat their dessert first. And it's to this day, we still eat our dessert first. So they would bring sweet stuff and fruits first. Then little containers would be removed. New Sofri would be praised, you know, a spread for the food to be brought. And then the next course would come. And then next course. What is so interesting about this is that you would have stew. and kebabs. And kebabs are not so big because this is not a nomadic cultural thing. You're making me feel sad that kebabs were not big.

But carry on. Okay, I'll do a stew. There are many other pleasures. The stews. The stews of Esfahan. So, all right, don't just say stews. I mean, what's in it? What's so special about stew?

So before I go to what's special about stew, the most special thing, the thing that ended the feast was rice. Rice dishes, Persian rice. of all kinds of recipes, all of which these new recipes for rice were written by two courtly chefs, if you will. One of them was a court or a princely household chef, whom we know by name actually, because they write these books. That one was called Mohamed Alibovar Gibbardi. And he writes a cookbook that has all these new recipes for rice.

And then Shah Abbas's chef, whose name is Nurola, he writes another cookery treatise. And there too, you see an assembly of new rice dishes. And we are talking about rice with all kinds of fruits and nuts and herbs and meats. Fruits is the particular thing, isn't it? That what makes the Persian rice stand out? This is Persian rice, fruits and nuts. That makes a Persian rice. In India, Kashmiri cooking is an echo of this.

Yes, exactly. Or what they call the North Indian cooking. The Mughal, courtly cookery is really also reflecting some of these. Though biryani has a different meaning in Isfahan, doesn't it? It's more like a sort of meat sandwich. Yeah. I'm still not letting you off the hook without telling me about the stews. I feel like I've skipped the main course here.

what was in it? What's an Isfahan stew all about? Well, this is not Esfahan stew so much as just Persian stews, right? So you would have stews with, say, meat and vegetables or the kinds of stews that are very common in Persian cookery today also. And what is so interesting about these is I'm really interested in not just the food, but also how it was delivered. So we have evidence of dishes, balls that are deeper and those are for the stews, and then these vast platters, which are shallow, and the rice is placed in these platters like a pyramidal shape. And it wasn't for common eating out of that platter, but actually for presentation. So everyone would get smaller plate of their own, but the platters, can you imagine all these

platters of rice of all colors. There are some recipes like siocpolo black rice or recipes that talk about how the chef should set it up so that it looks like a painting. He talks about colorful rice and the chef has to deliver and serve it to each person because only he knows what should be going with what in the serving of the food. Do you have to deliver? Do you have reference at this point to that lovely thing that I love in Persian cooking, that crunchy bottom of the pan rice? No, we don't, we don't know it actually. This must be a later, because this is courtly food, you know, this is high-level food. And that crunchy bottom probably was never delivered. It's still, now people delivered, but before it is delivered, we,

children go to the kitchen to eat it before it comes out. And what were people wearing? I mean, I was sort of keen, because I want to live in this period of Shabas is Isfana. I want to know what it felt. I mean, was fashion as intricate and ornate as the tiles and the beauty in the surrounding? Yeah. So it all goes together. And first of all, it's interesting that some European observers talk about the sort of diversity of textiles and tailoring of clothes and so forth. And I think maybe it is Chardin who says...

This is Jean Chardin, the French traveler. The French traveler and jeweler. He was a very sort of an observer with knowledge and spend a lot of time in Esfahan. The French were right in the Hain Tivernier, were hanging around. Yes, exactly. And so there's a note made of how Persians spend more money on their clothing than anyone else does in this period. And I have to say it is still the same, actually. If you go to an Iranian party, all these women are dressed to the nines like no one can possibly imagine.

But the clothing, you said, they were beautiful. We can only really talk about men's clothing that survives in the examples. Voided velvet material, which would depict flowers and birds or young men wearing the same kind of velvet coat. Can you imagine it's this conceit of an image? within an image. And the guy, these are the dandies of Esfahan, would wear these coats and beautiful costumes and hats and walk up and down the Maidan or walk up and down the Chahar Borg, the promenade, to go to cafes and taverns and so forth. And women would also be able to freely walk around and, you know, in beautiful clothes, or were they, was it much more,

they were not seen so much in public spaces? Yeah, that's a segregated society, essentially. Women had access, for instance, to the Chaharbaugh, the promenade. There are times when the promenade is reserved for women and even merchants whose female members of the merchant community would bring things for the women to buy. But women, you don't see or hear that they were walking around freely. If you are of high class, you don't do that. Shardam particularly says that the nobles of Isfahan keep their women very jealously. He's been already in Turkey and he'll go to Mughal India. But he thinks that the Persians are the ones who restrict the movements of their women most of all and are most jealous, he says.

Yeah. Shardan says they do not let anyone who calls the prayer climb high because they will see the women in their mansions that are always open to the side in their courts and gardens. Thus, the minaret's servonias ornaments. They do not make them make any more this day. They put in place for Midrots on the platforms to the mosque, a small open room from all sides, and from there they give the public call. They don't like the idea of Mueller's spying down on the women in the gardens.

Yes, although I have to say he must have known that it's so far away, they would see nothing of it. But nonetheless, he has a point. One other aspect of life in Safavid, is Fahan, I'd love to talk about, is the sexual moriz, this idea of bearded. boys. This is still a very important part of Persian culture at this point, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And it's this fluidity about gender and fluidity about sexual relationships. And there is a great deal written. And in painting, you see this.

You see this also in the Cheheseltan Palace. There's pictures of these boys and Europeans, too. Yes, there are. But not in, not necessarily in compromising positions, although that Two, you find it, for instance, in some objects, wine bottle, for instance. On one side of it, it has a good picture or a picture you can show anyone. The other side is a couple copulating. And so you have this object that you can show the side that is naughty to your friends, close friends, and turn it around when you don't want anyone to know you have this object. That's a private porn stash.

That's really good. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There is indeed, I think pornography, material of pornography do exist in all of these quarterly environments. And we have paintings of that sort as well, but also that gender fluidity specially applies to men. Yes, tell us about that. I'm very interested in that. Because it seems to be part of Persian culture and Persian poetry over quite a period of time. Yeah, and it's actually, when you think about it, Persian language does not, distinguished between, with the pronouns, gender.

There are sexual mores that are pretty strict. That's true. But for instance, the Safavid thinking, and I'm talking about the olama, the learned, is that Jesus' remaining celibate and all these missionaries coming in celibate, practicing celibacy, is an unnatural thing. They thought of it as unnatural and that men should have women or men. Suzanne, one thing before we close, you've talked about these missionaries coming in and we've talked about Chardin visiting. Tell us how cosmopolitan it was. You have people from all over, soon after this, you have the Shirlies coming in, the East India Company representatives, dressing in full Persian magnificence in all their robes and turbans.

And you have pictures of dandies from Europe with their wide-brim hats on the wall paintings of the palaces. How cosmopolitan was this city? Well, the way we understand it is that it was filled with people from everywhere. And not just Europeans. There were also Indians there and there were East Asians. And in fact, this should be the way we look at this, Fahann, that it's multi-religious and multicultural. It's half the world, as it were. Yeah.

It's much more of a plurality of interest and people. And so much of it has to do with open trade. and trade and commerce makes it possible for the Armenian and the Indian Hindus and the Muslims of all kinds to somehow manage to get along and do business. And I think that's the cosmopolitanism is embedded in the fact that we know in the marketplace you could buy prints, for instance, and printed books from Europe, or you could buy textiles from India. You could buy spices from everywhere.

You know, that sort of availability of things and of people and seeing one another and seeing different habits is really what makes the city so extraordinary. And you have brought it to life so beautifully. Thank you so much. That is all from us for this podcast. Goodbye from me, Anita Arnan. And goodbye from me, William Duremple.