Empire: World History - 137. Empress Theodora: Making Heaven on Earth

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

The Empress Theodora is often unfairly remembered for the salacious stories that have been told about her when she was forced to work in a brothel. She was far more than that. She used her power to improve the fortunes of women who were unfortunate enough to go through the same shocking situation as her. She helped rebuild the Hagia Sophia and turn it into the largest and most beautiful building in the 6th century world. She assisted Justinian’s foreign campaigns that sought to restore the glory of the Roman Empire. In short, she was remarkable. Listen as William and Anita are joined by Peter Sarris for the final time, as they discuss the extraordinary story of Theodora as Empress of the Roman Empire. For bonus episodes, ad-free listening, reading lists, book discounts, a weekly newsletter, and a chat community. Sign up at https://empirepod.supportingcast.fm/ Twitter: @Empirepoduk Email: [e-mail] Goalhangerpodcasts.com Assistant Producer: Anouska Lewis Producer: Callum Hill Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcasts, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mparpoduk.com. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnan. And me, William Durhampool. I always have fun on these podcasts. Always, always, always. But I have rarely had this much fun talking about, I mean, it's a woman.

Of course, you know, that's all my boxes ticked. But we are again joined by Peter Saris, Professor of Late Antique Medieval and Byzantine Studies at the University of Cambridge, who has just been a superstar telling us about this amazing, amazing woman, Empress Theodora. What an incredibly racy and thrilling and wonderful story it is. Well, do a recap. Do a didlo, do a doodoo-doodoo-p previously on this podcast. Do us a little recap. Previously on Empire. We told the story of how. how Theodora, who came from the most unpromising background, imaginable, trafficked as a child into child prostitution, which seems something that even her supporters say not just an accusation

thrown at her by her critics, who rose up, was briefly the partner of the governor of Libya who beats her up. She has to find her own way home. She gets back to Constantinople and by an incredible twist manages to become the mistress and the partner of the rising star of Constantinople, who is the Balkan-born Justinian. He rises first to be co-emperor with his father, Justin, and then when Justin dies, he comes to power. But he doesn't come to power alone. He comes to power jointly co-ruling with this remarkable wife. It's so thrilling. And Peter's here, and Peter, I mean, I'd give him a nine out of ten for that. It's pretty good. But, I mean, Justin was his unclear. rather than his dad.

I'd take a point off of that, wouldn't you? He then adopts him as his son. Yeah, but we'd still take Mark off. You see. That was the Bracey version. And Theodore is effectively a co-ruler, not officially a co-ruler. A fault in the way in which he builds her into the system,

really puts conservative nerves on edge. So, Peter, give us a picture of the city and the empire which these extraordinary co-r rulers are taking over after ascending the throne in 527C.E. So although the Western Roman Empire has fallen, the city of Constantinople is still the greatest imperial city in the known world. Unlike most Greco-Roman cities, it doesn't focus on a traditional style acropolis. Instead, the beating heart of the city is the palace complex,

which is originally built by Constantine. Adjacent to the palace, you have the hippodrome, where the chariot races take place, but also where a lot of imperial ceremonial takes place as the emperor uses the hippodrome to ceremonially present himself to his people and to interact with them politically, receiving chants from the circumcations

and sending messages back to them via his heralds. Adjacent to the palace, you have a great cathedral, the Church of Holy Wisdom, at this point a basilica-style church, similar to those in Rome, with four or five aisles, and adjacent to that you have the same. Senate House. So this is the beating political heart of the capital. You then have a series of

processional highways and roads linking this centre via a series of lavishly ornamented public squares to the Theodosian walls, the amazing triple-level defences which have been built to defend Constantinople from the Huns. The greatest city defences ever built anywhere. Well, if anyone wants to revisit this, we did those in the Ottoman series. Do you remember the breach of those unbreachable walls. Exactly, impregnable until the invention of cannon and gunpowder. Right. And at the heart of this, you have this extraordinary power couple now in the palace, Justinian and his formidable wife, Theodora. And Peter, again, just to give a picture beyond that, the empire includes the whole of the modern Balkans as far as Venice. So essentially, what is

happening is, as barbarian pressure has eased in the late 5th century, the empire is starting to re-establish power beyond the southern Balkans along the Danube and Justinian's homeland in southern Serbia today near the city of Nish. That area is going to be very heavily invested in by Justinian as this area comes back under direct imperial control again. So the zone of imperial power is being restored in the Balkans. To the east, Roman power extends over the entirety of modern Turkey, the Anatolian plateau, out towards the Syrian frontier, where essentially, Eventually along the border that now bisect Syria and Iraq, the Roman eastern frontier faces the great superpower rival of Persia. Roman power in the east includes Syria, Palestine and Egypt.

Beyond that to the west, the territories have fallen under barbarian rule. And these are very rich territories. These are the richest parts of the empire. Extremely rich. Absolutely. And in places like Syria, which I know from the Holy Mountain you visited many years ago, luckily I saw it as well. Areas such as the limestone massif to the north of Aleppo, the villages and the highlands there reach levels of prosperity in the early 6th century, which won't be seen again until really the 18th century or beyond.

Olive's being cultivated at altitudes there, which they were never to be cultivated at again, in fact. So it's a period of great political crisis, but in the very early 6th century, great agrarian and economic expansion across these largely Greek-speaking territories. Okay, so I mean, we've got this wealth, we've got this expanse, and we have the new power couple in town.

Do Justinian and Theodora come to power with some kind of idea of what their rules should look like? Do they have, and we'd call it a political manifesto these days, but do they have an objective that they present to the people? Well, Justinian certainly does. He has four priorities which will determine much of the course of his reign. The empire, as we saw in the previous episode, the Western provinces of the Roman Empire had fallen out of direct Roman rule in the 5th century, the empire's internal religious struggles, internal legal struggles, and also faces renewed threats from the East in the form

of the Persians. Now, Justinian regards himself as coming to power at a time of imperial crisis, and he regards that crisis as largely being the result of the indolence of his predecessors, their lack of Christian zeal, and as a result of that lack of Christian zeal, the way in which the empire has lost divine favour. So he is determined to address each of the aspects of the crisis which the empire has presented him with and to regain divine favour. So his most pressing priority when he comes to the throne is to press ahead much more aggressively than any emperor before him with the much more full-blown Christianisation of the Roman state. previous Roman emperors had cracked down on acts of pagan sacrifice. Justinian now for the first time

makes it illegal even to be a pagan. Those who refuse to convert to Christianity will be exiled. Those who make only false conversions, he declares, are to be executed. Peter, give us an idea of what sort of pagan centres that still are in the empire. I mean, if you go to Athens or Balbeck, are the operating pagan temples still in their magnificence? There is clearly still a a very lavish pagan temple in operation in Balbec, in what's now Lebanon, in places like Athens, you have very lively networks of pagan intellectuals and philosophers. Who look down on the Christians as far less fully civilised? Yes, indeed. Whilst there is, from the fourth century onwards, a growing fusion, as it were,

and synergy between Greek thought and Christian faith, there will always be those of a traditional, philosophical and literary training, who will always regard Christianity and intellectual Hellenism as ultimately incompatible. And particularly would regard the monks, as we might regard Hezbollah or Hamas, as sort of black-robed fanatics. Yes, and likewise, there will always be black-robed fanatics amongst the monks who will regard anybody of classical learning being essentially a crypto-pagan. So there is a cultural war going on in Constantinople in the 6th century. And Justinian, though he doesn't go along with the most full-blown hardliners, he has a crucial support base amongst the more aggressive Christianising tendencies.

Well, culture wars, we wouldn't know anything about those these days. I mean, that's completely alien. Indeed. And as well as making it illegal to be a pagan, he will start to increase legal penalties and to make life much harder for heretics, for those who follow forms of the Christian faith he regards as erroneous, really cracks down also on the legal rights and civil liberty. of his Jewish subjects and the Samaritans who remain a major force at this point in the Holy Land. I mean, he sounds like a bit of a pill, to be honest. He doesn't sound like much fun. He is determined, as it were, to fully Christianise the Roman state to achieve divine favour, and also in an age where elements within the church regard divine judgment and the last days

is imminent from his perspective, he is preparing the souls of his subjects for judgment. Now, his agenda, there's the Christianising aspect. There is a concerted, effort to resolve divisions in the imperial church by engaging the anti-Calcedonian party, the one nature party, theologically, but also by trying to drive out the main theologians who have been leading opposition to what he regards the true faith. Thirdly, out of four priorities, he is determined to restore legal order on the empire, and he engages in a remarkable codification of the Roman legal tradition, one of the most remarkable intellectual achievements of antiquity, and also crucially, he adopts a much more aggressive stance to the Empire's enemies to east

in Persia and to the west in the form of the new barbarian kingdoms. So those are the four priorities that will drive Justinians reign. Okay, and none of them sound like too much fun unless you are in Justinian's inner circle or you're approved to be a person he likes and a person like him. Or you share his agenda. Right, but on the other hand, okay, you've got some really liberalising things that happen. So for example, it is until now, until this reign of Justinian, it is legal to rape a woman. There's no problem about that. But it's under Justinian that it becomes illegal to

rape a woman. Is that coming from him or is that coming from his co-ruler Theodora? So there are two aspects here. So Roman law traditionally hasn't really had a concept of rape. Justinianic law will introduce that. That's very important. Now, Justinian's legislation, his domestic legislation, a lot of it is driven by the same Christian. Christianising agenda. Now, that Christianising agenda that makes him very intolerant towards religious outsiders in what one of his laws he describes as his new Orthodox Republic, also leads him to act of charity towards groups like the urban poor, for the first time we have concern for the handicapped or disabled in Roman law, for many of those at the bottom end of the social spectrum,

for whom Roman law has previously been a system that has no concern for them. Now, I think in a lot of what we would think of as more liberal aspects of this legislation, we can see Theodora's influence very much at work there. Do we know that, Peter, or do we surmise that? Well, in terms of her legal, her presence in the laws, it's not just in that respect. We see it more broadly in his agenda as well. So, for example, he introduces a law very early in his reign, making it illegal for government officials to just buy office. He makes it very clear in that law that the first person he consults on that legislation is his wife. Only once he's consulted her does he go to his chief minister, John the Capadocium. Likewise, in a very early law, and this would really have

put nerves on edge amongst his conservative critics, he makes all governors swear a personal oath of loyalty to both him and Theodora. This is remarkable in terms of establishing her at the heart of the political system. Now, I think tracing her presence in the legislation more generally is more, I think, in terms of the sort of information that's coming into it. So, for example, we have very vivid legislation issued under Justinian, cracking down on forcing girls into prostitution, cracking down on trafficking girls for purposes of prostitution, cracking down on those who force women to work on the stage and then prevent them from giving up on their theatrical careers. Is there anything like these very liberal,

liberal laws before? I mean, is this completely new in Roman law? There's nothing as detailed and as vivid as this. And I think that the vividness is where we're seeing, as it were, Justinian drawing on her life experiences. The fine detail of the legislation on the trafficking of girls of prostitution and how they're offered shoes and fancy clothes and food, if they agree to go and work for these flesh traffickers in the city are really quite remarkable. Likewise, it's important if we go back to the marriage legislation, for example, that made it possible for Theodora to marry Justinian. The two of them aren't simply having a personal privilege extended to her. They are having the law change to make it easy for all women who have had slightly

tainted pasts to redeem themselves, to set aside their past careers, to make respectable marriages, and not just for themselves, but also for their daughters as well. So Theodora seems to be lobbying, not just to make life better for herself, but for people like her who have had similar experiences. And it's really, it's a very striking feature of the legislation, which we see becoming more pronounced later in the rain as well. It's striking, but also I'm sort of thinking it might be controversial, that you've got the old sort of patriarchs of the city who are looking and go, well, this would be happening, wouldn't it, because he's married a prostitute, or, you know, just disparaging her. Does that happen? Absolutely. So for Copius's line is that in looking after

prostitutes, Theodora is looking after her own. Likewise, we know that she found a nunnery in Constantinople for reformed prostitutes. Pocopius will satirise this and say that women don't really want to be there and some of them will throw themselves out the window to try to escape. But even there, Pocopis is having to admit that she does found this nunnery. It is a very striking feature also that, for example, where is the initial legislation for women who are escaping, sordid professions are trying to better themselves. Initially, they have to sign a confession whereby they admit to what they've done wrong in their past as an act of creating a new life. Once she's empress, she makes it much easier. They don't have to do that and their children are free of any taint. So she's very concerned,

I think, not just for the individual women, but also their offspring. It's very unusual for Roman law to show so much concern for women. Peter, you said that we see the influence of Theodora very much in the care for former prostitutes and so on. But you've also said that Justinian is cracking down on religious dissidents, and Theodora is in many ways herself a religious dissident. We get the impression that she's taking a very different theological line from him and the Orthodox. Yes, so we know, once again, from the pro-theodoran sources, but also the anti-theodoran sources agree on this, that from very early on in their relationship, she provides safe haven in Constantinople for dissident clergymen who are visiting the capital.

Now, this, when Justinian is emperor, is initially quite useful for him because she can then be used as a point of contact and a mode of communication with these elements within the church with whom he is initially minded to try to do a deal. And an attempt to resolve the theological disputes of the era from an abstract theological perspective is one of the uniting themes of Justinian's mind and his reign.

So I think she is serving a useful political function there as well. This isn't just an arcane theological detail that there is whole areas of the empire, particularly Egypt and Syria, where these distant views are dominant. And historians will often argue that when Islam comes along a century later, that these areas split off partly because they feel that they're as much in opposition to Constantinople and the theology there as they are to the Arabs who are offering a new member. empire with them part of it? Yeah, I mean, that's partly, I think, an optical illusion of our sources, because in fact, what will eventually happen is that Justinian ends up very successfully driving the leading dissident clergyman out of the imperial church. The growth of the Anticassadonian Church will really take off when those territories are reconquered by the Persians and the Arabs later on. And those later clergymen, then as it were, reinvent the 6th century history

to make it look like they were more influential. You're thinking like Nestorius, first of all, exiles to Kaga and then the growth of that sort of theology in the Persian Empire? Yes, there is a sort of, I say, the real growth of the anti-Casidonian communities will be after these territories have been lost to Roman rule. But Justinian, as I say, is successful at driving out, is the churchman who most irritate him, but he's always trying to find a theological solution

and trying to use his wife as a point of contact with these dissident clergymen, some of whom will have to be engaged with if his compromise formula are going to work. Well, okay, so there are matters of Christ and then there are matters of cash. And you did mention one name, which is going to be very important. That's John the Capodokian a little while ago. He's in charge of this much more draconian tax-collecting regimen that Justinian wants to see.

He doesn't like Theodora. He doesn't like the emperor's wife. What is that about? And how do we know this? I think that once again, that law I referred to earlier in which Justinian says that he consults Theodora first, and then he consults John McApidocion on the sale of offices, that sort of thing's really going to put John the Capodosian's nose out of joint. He wants direct access to Justinin. Justinian and he chime.

They have a very common agenda. They both agree on the fiscal priorities of the regime in terms of squeezing money out of the tax shy, aristocracy and whatever. He doesn't like Theodora getting in the way. Theodora is always very suspicious of John. So we have a very anti-John the Capodosian source, a man who's working in the civil service called John the Lydion. And he says, actually, the only person who really understands how bad John the Capodosian is and is constantly warning Justinian about him is Theodora. Likewise, Procopia says that John the Cappadocian is the only person whom Justinian allows to criticize the empress to his face.

So it's a real, there's a little tuss in a court for the emperor's attention. It sounds like a lovely happy family. But John the Capadocian, is it him who brings a lot of hatred towards the emperor as well? There's this idea of the cursus vellocks, the fast post. I mean, I thought that was a really interesting thing, that it's such a simple thing, but if you remove it, it causes so much harm to so many people. Just talk us through what happened with these posts and why they were important and whose fault that was. So what you have is a massive system of imperally subsidised

communication across the empire, with imperally maintained roads, obviously, and caravansarise, as it were, the stopping off posts of which imperial officials can rest and refresh and recharge, and also a series of imperally supplied mounts to allow officials, messengers, by this point, bishops to traverse the empire at great speed. This is very important for rapid communication and the rapid transmission of knowledge. So you swap your horse. I mean, in essence, you swap your horse. That's what you're going to fresh horse. Now, the early 6th century, we had this massive revival of warfare with Persia, growing problems with tax collections and local level due to tax evasion.

And John McAppadocian is determined to maximize state revenues with Justinian support, partly by tightening the fiscal knot, by trying to raise more taxes from the worksite, but also through economizing. We have a sort of austerity agenda. And so he decides to cut back on the fast post, as it were, the system of supply and communication in those areas that are least important. militarily. So it's maintained out to the eastern frontier. It's maintained down to the Holy Land for pilgrims and then it's retrenched elsewhere. But this has massive economic ramifications for those

tradesmen and peasants who are selling their goods to those who are turning up at these caravansir-style stables and institutions and fortresses and what have you. So that's very unpopular, but also the broader fiscal agenda is very, very unpopular, not least with members of the Senate in Constantinople who are typically owners of far-flung estate. and on whose purse is Justinian and John the Capadocian have their eye. And Peter, we should make it clear that it's a very, very big spending regime. The conquest that Justinian begins to initiate are enormously expensive, as are his building projects. And the sort of rebuilding of churches and so on is a massively expensive operation,

which is requiring enormous amounts of tax from across the empire. Well, as you say, in 533, Justinian will start to send armies. to the West, taking advantage of internal political crises in the barbarian kingdoms, first in Africa, then in Italy, later in Spain. Actually, I think those campaigns are relatively cheap. I think those are opportunistic campaigns, largely on the cheap, as it were, where he's trying out to see how successful, not terribly large armies can be if sent against these regimes at moments of internal weakness. And the answer is very successful, we should say. Very successful. But I think that the major priority is defending.

the eastern frontier, and we have massive investment in the defensive infrastructure, in the fortifications in Syria, in Palestine, in the Caucasus, also in the Balkans to try to give greater defence in depth, the imperial regime there. As I'm sure we'll come on to, in the early 530s, much of the monumental heart of Constantinople is destroyed by rioters and has to be rebuilt. That costs a lot, but also the army costs a lot. You know, it had the revival of warfare with Persia in the early 6th century, maintaining a large field army to, face down the Persians is very expensive. Okay, I mean, you mentioned the riots, and we've taken our eye off them.

In the last episode, we talked about this phenomenon, a little bit like football supporters, where you have supporters of different charioteers, they will be the blues or the greens, who are the major ones, and then you have the reds and the yellows or whatever, the puses. Nobody cares about them. Nobody talks about the puses. They were terrible. But, you know, you've got these two, which are the major ones, the blues and the greens, that have an underpinning of ideology.

What does Justinian do about them and how does he sort of cope with this division within his empire? Well, Justinian has used, manipulated the Blues very successfully to build up his own support on the streets of Constantinople prior to becoming emperor. Which is Theodora's own faction. They're the ones who ended up when her mother remarried. They're the ones who give them a home. Initially, after coming to the throne in 527, Justinian tries to distance himself from the factions, now acting as emperor rather than. there's a claimant to imperial power, he wants to put them back in their box. Crucially, in early 532, there's an outbreak of rioting in Constantinople, of a sort that's quite common in terms of fighting and lawlessness associated with the factions. And Justinian has the leaders of

both the green and blue factions arrested. Which is unprecedented. Yeah, this is really, and they don't understand what's going on. It's like the Italian government calling in the mafia. And, you know, they're thinking, particularly the blues, you know, are thinking, here's someone, he's used us, we're expecting him to look after us. What's happening? He's arresting our leaders. So what you then have is what is unprecedented is that the greens and the blues, these hostile rival factions, come together and start rioting, demanding the release of their leaders. Now, Justinian's regime is already unpopular with senatorial elements in Constantinople. Theathele is rising. Justinian and Theodore, regarded as upstarts. There are very blue-blooded

factions in Constantinople who still have their eye on the throne. And what happens is that Justinian's senatorial opponents take advantage of these riots, probably start funding them more, start arming the rioters in order to turn what begins as an outbreak of civic rioting into an attempted full-blown coup and usurpation, with the rioters besieging Justinian and Theodora in the palace from the hippodrome. Which is immediately next door. Immediately next door. Burning down the Senate House, burning down, some of the surrounding structures of the hippodrome, destroying. much of the monumental heart of Constantinople, including the Cathedral of Hagia Sophia, the old Basilica building, which stands next to the palace as well. It is wanton destruction with a

view to trying to drive Justinian from the throne and from the city. And if you're trying to usurp, it helps if you have a usurper to take the place. I mean, do they have someone in mind who, you know, if they drive Justinian and Theodora out, they can replace them? Well, there is a young senator who's very well regarded called Hypatius, who Justinian has with him in the palace. And when the riots are going on, he orders Hypatius out of the palace. I think that's because he's worried about there being an internal palace coup and the guards officers bringing Justinian down and putting Hypatian on the throne. He sent out Hypatius out, taking the gamble, I think, that the rioters will probably acclaim Hypatius, but then at least he will know who his

enemies are and he will then see what the situation is. And this is the point he calls in a man who's going to be very important for the rest of the story, who is Count Belisarius. Yes, so Belisarius is someone who, prior to becoming Emperor Justinian, has been made a general by his uncle and father, Justin. And Belisarius is a fellow man from the Balkans, a military man, who again, Justin has got a great eye for talent in terms of John the Capadocian, in terms of now Belisarius. Belisarius has caught his eye as a talented military man, and when Justinian comes to throne, he makes him general on the east, and, there he inflicts a major defeat on the Persians. And in those lovely Ravenna mosaics, we see not only

Justinian and Theodora lied up in all their splendor. We also see Belisarius and his wife, Antonia. Yes. Now, Belisarius is after his major defeat of the Persians involved in a minor engagement, which goes less well, and he's subjected to a court-martial. So he's for a short period removed from office. But when these riots break out in Constantinople, there he is in the palace. I think Justin is about to reappoint him as a military commander, but crucially, after some prevarication, he will turn to Belisarius and one of the other generals, a guy called Narcissus, to try to put the rioters in place. But he only does so, we're told, after considering taking flight. This is interesting, because this is where Focopius actually paints the Adora in a more positive guys.

He considers taking flight, we're told, and the only courtier who tells Justinian not to flee to the palace and to take on the rioters is his wife. I mean, Procopius gives her credit for a change. It just says, actually, you know, that she was the one who steals him. Or what's the phrase he's God-crowned Theodora is the one who steadies his nerve and stops him from running away? It's as if as a crucial moment in time she's the only man around him is I think the message is conveying.

Now, there is some argument between scholars. So there was a speech put into the mouth of Theodora when Justinian is considering taking flight, where she says royalty is a no-beye. burial shroud. So it's not something you run away from. If you die in it, you die in it. You die in office. She's a tuffy. Yeah. Now there was a speech attributed to a character in earlier ancient Greek history called Dionysius of Syracuse. He was regarded as one of the most infamous tyrants of antiquity. And when his population rose up against him, he put them down, supposedly with the words tyranny as a noble burial shroud. So some would argue that that

speech that Procopius puts into the mouth of Theodora is actually critical in that it's trying to draw comparisons between Justinian and the tyrant Dionysius, but one doesn't have to read it that way. You know, I can also think of that as a contrast. At the end of the day, she does say royalty or the Imperial Office, not tyranny. And I think that the way in which she is presented as stealing Justinian's nerves by an author who was otherwise quite hostile to her is very telling. And from that point on, after he successfully defeats the rioters. With a terrible slaughter, we should say. There is an unbelievable bloodshed in the streets.

How many people do we think are killed in that sort of retribution? Possibly up to 5% of the entire population of Constantinople. Good Lord. That's enormous. But after that, and it's after that, as it were, that her influence over him in religious and theological matters will be at its height, and where she almost gets him to do a deal with the leaders of the anti-Castodonian party,

though that ultimately goes wrong because of their intrans, not Justinians. Okay, so, but I mean, from the embers, there has to be rebuilding. And, you know, you mentioned that sort of the burning of important buildings. How yes, Ophir is so badly damaged during these riots. Does Theodora have a hand in rebuilding Constantinople, raising it again from these ashes? So Justinian and Theodora take advantage of the enormous destruction done to the monumental heart of Constantinople to, as it were, rebuild the city to their own self-glorification and, as it were, to blazon the achievements and ambition of their regime.

So we have a wave of church building across the city to, as it were, imprint more fully, the Christian vision of Constantinople and the landscape. And chief amongst this is, of course, the creation, the building of Justinian's greatest monument, the cathedral church of Hagia Sophia, replacing the old rectangular basilica with this enormous domed structure that still dominates the skyline of Istanbul until the 16th century, the largest domed structure in the world, in which you can place

a 15-story building. Could I read the little wonderful Procopius quote when he's writing about his impression of the newly built, Aiosophia? He says, so bright is the glow of the interior that you might say it is not illuminated by the sun from outside, but that the radiance is generated within. Rising above is an enormous spherical dome, which seems not to be founded on solid masonry, but to be suspended from heaven by a golden chain. Whatever one goes into this church to pray, one understands immediately that this work has been fashioned not by human power and skill, but by the influence of God. And so the visitor's mind is lifted up to

God and floats aloft, thinking that he cannot be far away, but must love to dwell in this place, which he himself has chosen. It's a remarkable description. And there's a deliberate effort harnessing sound engineering, light engineering, the construction of the dome, the acoustics of the dome, to try to convey a sense of otherworldliness in Iosophia and to give the sense of it is where divinity and creation meet. It is God's dwelling place on earth. Now, Justinian's role in the construction of his churches always emphasise, but he is also careful to emphasise just Theodora's role as well. So, for example, around the structure, you have a whole series of columns with monograms on the column tops. And 89 of these monograms are the name of Justinian. 30 of them are the name of Theodora.

So he's blazoning her role in this construction as well. But it's an extraordinary act of opportunism to take advantage of this mass destruction to now, as it were, make this enormous statement of the ambition and achievement of the regime. And it's an opportunism that then feeds into those Western campaigns. It's after Nica riots, the Justinian decides to send his armies west to try to, as it were, refloat the regime's military credentials as well as its domestic political ones. And this is the first time that the Roman Empire in a sense has struck back. We've just seen it retreat. It's retreated from Britain. It's retreated from Gaul and Spain and finally Italy. But now for the first time in the 530s we're seeing a determined and partially successful efforts to reconquer the lost West. Yeah. In the late 460s and Armada had been sent from Constantinople to try to reconquer the very wealthy territories of North Africa, which the vandals had settled themselves.

in, that was destroyed by the fire ships of the Vandal King Geisselaic. This is the first effort since then. And when Justinian announces, he's going to send an armada of his own to North Africa, John the Capadocian is very opposed, pointing out how expensive and disastrous the last effort had been, but Justinian is persuaded to press ahead. In the case of Africa, not to be encouraged by Theodora, but more by elements within the imperial church who regard the vandals as heretics. You know what? That will be a wonderful start to part two.

But just before we go to the break, can we just remind ourselves that, again, you know, that little detail you gave us of the pillars themselves having both of these names, Theodora and Justinian sort of inscribed. These two in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer, are still in love. I mean, it's an unusual thing that a marriage lasts this long through such adversity, even when things are going well, he doesn't forget her. It's amazing.

We're told that the only point of tension between them is that she wants him to get rid of John the Cappadocian and he is very loath to. Okay, well, on that note, let's take a break. We'll be back soon. Welcome back. In the last half of this episode, Peter Saris was taking us to the climax of the reign of Justinian and Theodora.

This is an incredibly rich empire that is flexing its muscles to raise enormous amounts of tax revenue to build brand new basilicas, not just in Constantinople, but in Bethlehem, in the Sinai, and in future in Europe, in Ravenna, they're also beginning to look at conquest. And the Roman Empire has been on the back foot, effectively, for 200 years. The barbarians of various sorts and enemies of Rome have been pouring over the frontiers, threatening all the centres of power and the West has fallen. But now Justinian and Theodora think the moment is ripe to begin what they hope will be the reconquest of the West. Peter, take us there.

What is their plan? These campaigns, I think, are very opportunistic, taking advantage of internal power struggles in certain of the key successor kingdoms in the West. I don't think Justinin has a view to reconquer the Western Roman Empire as a whole. not heading for Hadrian's Wall at this point. Yeah, exactly. But restoring direct Roman control over as much of the Mediterranean as he can is crucial. 533, he sent his armies into Africa, where in a very speedy campaign, they reconquer the very wealthy territories of Roman North Africa, which had previously been ruled over by the vandals. Now, there's no sign Theodora's involved in that. In 535, he then sends his armies into Italy. Here, I think she is involved. So the pretext, the invasion of Italy, is that we have a queen

ruling in Italy, the Queen Amalusuntha of the Goths. The regime had been founded by her father, Theodoric the Ostrogoth, a very great ruler. Whose wonderful tomb is sitting in Ravenna still? Absolutely. Now, he dies without a son. Amalusuntha becomes queen, and she corresponds with Justinian and with Theodora. But we also have correspondence between Theodora and Amalasunza's cousin, Theodahad. Theodahad assassinate Amalusuntha. And we have a letter from him to Theodora. saying, oh, we've made arrangements to get rid of a certain person you want rid of. Oh, my God. Is that a new discovery of yours?

Peter, I've never heard that said. Oh, no, that's preserved in the letters of Cassiodorus. But that's direct foreign policy, Machiavelli intervention. Wow. Likewise, we have a source that she may be, here one has to be a bit more careful, that during the course of the Byzantine or the East Roman reconquest of Africa, in 537, a Pope in Rome is removed from office, Pope Silvarius. Later, papal sources will blame Theodora for that as well. When you say removed from office, do you mean assassinated again?

No, he's taken off into exile and replaced by somebody else. Kidnapped or? He's taken off into Greece for his own safety, as it were. Gosh. Now, in Contantinople itself as well, she is very involved in court politics, not just in terms of lobbying legislation in the way we've seen, but also she's very careful to protect her husband from any obvious potential claimant to the throne. So she is very suspicious of the General Belisarius, who leads these campaigns of reconquest in Africa and Italy after helping to crush the Nica riots. So she's always sort of trying to marginalise him. And that's quite a complicated one, isn't it?

Because initially she had been an ally of Balasarius and Belisarius's wife, Antonia, against John the Capodosian. John the Cappadocian is regarded by Belisarius as undermining his campaigns by not giving him enough money. And what we see is that Theodora and Belisarius's wife plot against John the Cappadocian and managed to bring him down by getting him to plot against Justinian. And he's exiled to the Caga oasis. Exactly. Such as Justinian finds out and has to exile him. Now, what's remarkable about that story is that that is reported in Procopius's publicly circulated writing. his history of the wars. So that's a story that's getting widespread circulation and probably

wouldn't have been put in that work had a broader body of political society not known it or believed it to be true. Oh God, but that's, that makes them very tricksy. This is becoming like House of Cards now. You've got this power couple. A house of cards or Game of Thrones where people are manipulating everybody behind the scenes. Well, it's funny you should say that. If there were a film made of Justinian's regime, I think the person who would be best playing for copious would actually be Kevin Spacey. So I think the House of Cards

You've got this all plotted out, Peter. Have you showed your film rights? I haven't know. Absolutely love an academic who watches, you know, crap on telly like we do. Gauvid Dahl did write a screenplay for a film of Justinian for Martin Scorsese, but nothing ever came of it, unfortunately. Ah, tragic. It would have been a good one.

So, I mean, we're talking about Theodora wanting to protect our husband, and you can see why, if you've got all these manipulative, dark hands, sort of operating behind the scenes. but they do start to see a decline in their imperial rule. What starts to provoke the downward slide of this sort of magical couple? The first wave of problems begins as early, probably as the mid-530s, when we have a period of very dramatic climate disruption around the Mediterranean and beyond. Our friend Peter Franckapan makes much of this at his new history of the world.

It's an excellent section of Peter's book, where probably due to volcanic eruptions in Central America, we have enormous climatic disruption in the northern hemisphere, which undermines agriculture. Agriculture is the basis of taxation. This is going to make it harder to raise the money for Justinian's armies. So you start getting problems beginning in the late 530s. Then, crucially, in 541 to 2, we have the first known outbreak of the bubonic plague in the history of the Mediterranean world, which arrives in the Mediterranean via Egypt. This will spread like wildfire. It's in constant in Nople in 542. Even Justinian falls in,

ill with it and almost dies. His recovery will be regarded as near miraculous. And nursed by Theodora? We have no mention of that, but clearly prayers are being said probably after his recovery, he patronises the Church of St. Cosmas and Damien in Constantinople, who are two doctor saints, as it were. So the plague, which will then recur throughout his reign, in fact, down to the 8th century, will lead to massive governmental disruption and, of course, a massive loss of taxpayers on whom the empire depends. We also have a revival of Gothic resistance to the armies of reconquess in Italy, and massive military pressure once again from Persia, with the Persian Shah Kusrow driving his cavalry into

Roman territory and sacking Antioch, the greater city of the east after Constantinople. So we have mounting military pressure and internal crisis. These are grim years for the couple where the regime, as it were, settles into dogged routine of survival, trying to stabilize this battered Roman state. Peter, we should also give an impression of the sheer horror of this plague, what it's like to see someone caught by it and what happens to them. Take us through the development of the plague. Well, the bubonic plague in the absence of modern medicine is one of the most deadly diseases known to mankind. And we now have genetic evidence for what the strain of the bubonic plague in the sixth century looked like. And it is genetically

so similar to the strains we have of the black death, that we should assume a very similar rate of mortality. So this is a plague which, in the absence of its pneumonic strain, if once you go down with it, initially you'll start getting headaches, fevers, eventually you will grow the bubo, that is the clear sign that you've got this horrific black postule in your armpit or neck or elsewhere in the groin. Roughly half of those who get this disease will die of it in the course of five to six days. As I say, it devastates a city of Constantinople. You slip into a coma, delirium, you start vomiting, and these black pastoral spread, you start vomiting blood. It's one of the most terrific diseases you can possibly get. And Procopius is present in Constantinople as an eyewitness

to see this plague arrives. So he gives us a remarkably vivid account, as also is one of Theodora's pet clergyman, John of Ephesus. This is the man who tells us that Theodora, whom he's devoted to, prior to her redemption came from the brothel. He is travelling around the eastern provinces of the Empire to Constantinople again as the plague arrives, and his description and procopuses are very, very similar, giving a sense of mass mortality. And at the peak of it, it's between five and ten thousand victims a day in Constantinople. Yeah, it's conceivable that the population of the imperial capital may be reduced by 30, 40%, very rapidly, and then has to be repopulated from the surrounding cities. When you say Justinians are,

of has it, but miraculously survives it. Does that change him at all? Because you know, sometimes you have people who are on the verge of death and who come back. And, well, he's already seen the light. What does he see once he's come back from the brink of death? I think it intensifies his sense of the urgency of moral and religious reform at home. He cracks down still more aggressively on those he regards as sources of religious corruption. Because he thinks that this is divine wrath. Exactly. It's a kind of divine displeasure. He's also cracked down, I should emphasize on first time any Roman emperor does this, on those whose sexual lifestyle he regards as immoral, he's the first Roman emperor to make it have a blanket ban on sexual activity

between men, for example, where he draws on the biblical model of Sodom and Gomorrah to justify his persecution of gay men. But that's a radical change, isn't it? Because it had been very common. Yeah. So it further intensifies his fixation with moral and religious catharsis. It intensifies determination to try to perfect imperial theology. and as it were, it also leads to a still greater theological fixation on the part of an emperor who's always obsessed with these things. He, however, may be surer than ever of his faith and his divine right to rule in the fact that he's following heavenly signs. But then something happens, which just shakes him completely, and that's the death of Theodora. We're talking 548, so not long

after the plague. Do we know how she died, what she died of, and what exactly it did to him? It's sometimes suggested she might have died of some sort of cancer. We don't really know. We have no terribly vivid descriptions of her death. Unfortunately, we don't really have any terribly vivid descriptions of her burial, other than we know that she is buried in a mausoleum that Justinian has built especially for the two of them, adjacent to the Church of the Holy Apostles, where the Emperor Constantine and many of his imperial successors, the throne of Constantinople. would be buried. And we have accounts of Justinian later in his reign, stopping off when returning from visits outside the city, stopping off at the church to light candles and pray for the soul of his wife. It clearly has a great psychological impact on him. We're told that his generals in Italy, the campaigns in Italy will continue into the early 550s. His generals in Italy worry that with Theodora dead, that he's simply lost interest in the Western Reconquest, that his eyes are fixed evermore towards heaven, where he prays towards Theodore and presents her as interceding

with God and the Virgin Mary on behalf of him, his regime and the empire. It's a real love of her, this. It's a really serious... Absolutely, yeah. Eventually, those around him managed to refocus the Emperor's attentions, and the Five-50s will see a number of really interesting imperial interventions, the sending of armies into Spain, the stealing of the secrets of silk production from the East. These are, once again, very marvellous diplomatic moves to isolate the Persians in the Caucasus. So the regime regains something of its energy, but clearly her death has a major impact. Before she dies, though, she's not only tried to protect the emperor, she's also tried to advance her family. So her daughter, for example, we know that her daughter, whose name we don't know,

but we know that she arranges for her daughter to find a posh husband. So she marries into the household of the former Emperor Anastasian. and one of her nieces, Sophia, ends up marrying a nephew of Justinians, and he will be the emperor just in the second who succeeds Justinian when he dies in 565. So her niece, who's very much a chip off the old block, will become an empress in her own right, the Empress Sophia. And I mean, with this sort of, they're looking to heavens, the saying that she's up there, she's up there somewhere and she's interceding with God and she's best friends with, you know, Jesus and all of that kind of thing. Is that the start of the, I suppose, the pathway to becoming a saint?

Because we know that's what happens eventually. What is the root by which she now becomes an important part of Orthodox Christianity? So the status of Justinian and Theodora in Christian piety moving forward is slightly complicated because Justinian late in his reign, whilst trying out a new theological formula, does fall out of elements within the imperial church. So it doesn't die in good odor with some of the church leadership. Now, he will be regarded ultimately, and so will she within the Orthodox tradition and celebrated as saints. But her religious standing, her sanctity will, of course, be most clearly and unambiguously celebrated

in the Church of the East. The members of the anti-Calcedonian churches, whom, as well alluded to earlier, would so thrive initially under Arab Muslim rule from the 7th century onwards. Just emphasise that point again, Peter, because I think many of our listeners will be surprised by that. These churches thrived under Arab rule. Yes, so as it were, those sections of the Christian community that had progressively fallen out with Constantinople theologically over the course of the 5th and 6th centuries, they would thrive under Arab rule in the 7th. The Arab conquerors of the 7th century aren't really interested in converting people to Islam

and in fact even pro-Calcedonian Christian communities would do quite well and expand. By the time we get to the year 700, most Christians in the world are living under the Arab Caliphs. It's a remarkable fact. And within the Church of the East, the anti-Calcedonian elements of the Eastern churches, Theodora would unambiguously be regarded as a saint and a model of piety. In Byzantium, as I say, both Justinian and Theodora have a slightly more mixed reputation, But we know, for example, that in the later Byzantine period, pilgrims in Constantinople would go to a church built on the site of what was believed to be a sort of textile factory, where it is believed as a young girl, she'd worked as a weaver. That's the story of her more common background that's cultivated at that point there.

To the West, however, one would always have rumours in circulation emphasizing a slightly shadier past. So we have an early medieval account a bit confused, describing how the author of that source believed that Justinian and his bestmate, Belisarius, had met Theodora and Belisarius's wife when they were both working as a brothel, which they visited when they were soldiers. Interestingly, though, in that story, Theodora and Belisarius' wife are described as Amazons, huge, mythological women. And they are tall in those mosaics. Theodora is a tall woman.

But Focopoea says that whilst Theodora is pretty and has remarkably lively eyes, she's quite short. So, as it were, that later medieval story may catch something of Theodora's personality, but not quite her stature, as remembered by contemptuous. Peter, you seem to be particularly fond of Theodora, even more so perhaps. Your biography was named Justinian, but of the two, you maybe paint a more sympathetic picture of Theodora than him. Yes, Justinian is a very difficult man to warm to, and I don't make any particular effort to do so. His legacy to Byzantium and the formation of Christendom, and indeed his influence on the early Islamic world in his formative phase, would be absolutely immense. Whereas in Theodora, I think we see someone who rises from just terrible circumstances and who, in the course of her assent, uses her power, as I say, not just to help herself and her immediate family, but other women like her, and helps to inflect. the more charitable aspects of Justinian's legislation in an even more charitable direction.

So I think that it's very hard to come away from the study of the period liking Justinian. It's very hard to come away from the study of this period not actually quite liking Theodora. What a wonderful way to end. We're all team Theodora here now. We are. Thank you so much. You're an absolute superstar. It is an amazing story. You tell it so well. And if you want to read Peter Cyrus's masterful book on this, Justinian. It is a wonderful, wonderful book. Do not miss this book.

Yeah, Emperor Justinine, you can get it at a discount. If you are a friend of Empire, join the Empire Club. All you need to do is sign up at EmpirePoduk.com. And you'll get lots of delicious things including that. But listen, it's been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for being with us, Peter. Until the next time, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan. And goodbye from me, William Drupul.

Before I go, I just want to ask, are you going to go out as you did yesterday, Peter, now and have a delicious Thessaloniki glass of dry white wine and halva in the Holy Week streets of Salonica? I leave this city tomorrow morning, so I'm going to go down to the sea front and have a refreshing glass of Uzo and then ponder what gastronomic delicacies this marvellous city has to offer me for the rest of my stay such as it is. Well, enjoy it.