Empire: World History - 139. Mrs Genghis Khan

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Börte came from a powerful nomadic tribe and in many ways her marriage to Genghis Khan set him up to become the great conqueror we know. They married young and when they were twenty, he brought his new bride back to his camp. But their newlywed life was turned upside down when Börte was kidnapped. He formed important alliances to retrieve her and seek revenge. Once reunited, Börte became a key advisor to her husband as he laid the foundation of the Mongol Empire, establishing a dynasty that lasted for centuries. Listen as Anita and William are joined by Marie Favereau to discuss the life of Börte. **Empire Live** Empire live show tickets are ON SALE TODAY from 9am UK time!! Join Anita and William at the London Barbican 8 July 2024! Buy your tickets here or here. Twitter: @Empirepoduk Email: [e-mail] Goalhangerpodcasts.com Assistant Producer: Anouska Lewis Producer: Callum Hill Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcasts, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mpowerpoduk.com. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnan. And me, William Durhampool. This is such a great podcast because it turns things that you've always thought were true on their head. So when we talk about the Mongols, because of film, cinema and popular culture, we're often given this sort of very masculine, all masculine, in fact, entirely masculine story. Most, I suppose,

visually, we would associate the Mongols with most recently Game of Thrones in the Dothraki, you know, sort of these horse warriors who really don't have very much time for women unless it's for pleasure and for trade and for slavery. And yet we're going to do a podcast today. And about a woman at the very heart of the Mongol Empire. I'm going to start off by just calling her Mrs. Genghis Khan, so that you know what position this woman had. But it is said, she has a name, women always do, Borta, and it is said there is no Genghis Khan without Borta,

there is no Mongol Empire without Borta. And our very special guest to talk about this is Marie Favarro, author of the Horde, and great pleasure to have you here. And it's really exciting to talk to a woman about a woman in the middle of the Mongols. So thank you very much for doing this, Murray. So delighted. Thank you for introduction.

Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here with you. And I should say, do my fan girl moment here. The Horde is just one of the great, great books. It's exactly the sort of book we love to celebrate here on Empire, which is both incredibly scholarly and uses extraordinary primary sources from a whole variety of obscure languages, but presents it in an utterly readable,

totally accessible manner without any jargon. And if anyone wants to know anything about life in the Mongol era, Marie is your girl to go for. Thank you so much. It was really funny. When I was talking about the Dothraki, that is it, isn't it? That's people's images of the Mongols is the Dothraki,

these sort of grunting, heaving warriors who, you know, aren't very refined, aren't very sophisticated, and women nowhere in sight. Exactly. I completely agree with you also. They have very primitive sexual practices, which is so far from what we see in our sources about, you know, marriage and complex, sophisticated nomadic societies. And the place for women is so different from what we imagine it was in the Middle Ages. So it's really wrong in that sense. But, you know, we need to provide accurate information, life stories on this period of time and on women, because we do have sources. Marie, you paint this picture of a Mongol world where women are far more powerful than anyone would expect. Is that specific to the Mongols, or is that true of many steps societies and nomadic societies who operate over many thousands of years in that area?

Yeah, that's a very important question. So certainly the Mongols are ineritate social practices from previous nomadic empires. In this same area, which we call Mongolia today, there was before the Mongols. at least one very famous empire called the Turk Empire, six, seven century. And before the Turk, there were other empires like... The Hanes, the Zhongnu. Yes, exactly.

So we have information from them, and we know that already women had important position, and we are not constrained by special clothes. We're not closed indoors, very visible in everyday life, and having a strong political position. But it's with the Mongols when things change, because we have more sources, and the scale of the empire is also different.

Mongol conquered half of what is Eurasia today. They will be in contact with people having different religions and different social practices. You think about Muslims or Christians at that time in the Middle Age. Travelers from these far away countries, when they come to Mongolia or the nomadic world of the Mongol, they are super surprised. They say, wow, women are in the street.

They have their own traders. They are super powerful. they do diplomacy. How strange. And actually, they find it interesting. They're not necessarily shocked, but they think it's another world. And when we're talking about everyday life for the Mongol women, I think it's really interesting to draw the parallel between Christian and Muslim societies in the Middle Ages. We're talking about women, I mean, tell me, who dress like the men, who rode horses like the men, who traded like the men. Was that their sphere of experience? Yeah, absolutely. So the idea is like, in this nomadic life, people are herders. You have

have a lot of work to do in the camp. You need to be super active. So a woman would be able to do everything inside the tent. We call yort today also, or Gary Mongolian. And they have to be also super active outside. They can do hunting. They can ride horses exactly like men. They have the same type of clothes that we know as well. So they can do a man's job. When it's not necessary, they don't necessarily do it, but they can do it. That's why you can imagine that all these Mongol conquest would never have happened without them. Did those jobs include warfare? It might.

The thing is, during warfare, Mongol families stayed together most of the time. So we know that men would go with the women and their children on the field. So it's very different from what we know from Western societies. It's a completely different complexion to the Mongol hoard, but you've got all these sort of families traveling together with babies. Yeah, you have to understand that warfare, it's also very strong. seasonal at that time. It happens during winter. It's just one moment in the year. So at that moment, family move if they need to go on the path of war. Then they say there's more stability for warriors

because they have their family around. So it's healthier in a way. It's a very different concept of war. Totally. I mean, totally on its head. But also, we have mentioned of some women on the battlefields. And we know they can shoot arrows like men and they can ride. So they might, if needed, they, they could be on the bats of field too. And Jenghis had among his daughters, one that was super famous for being as strong as a man. It was praised also in Mongol society, the fact that they had those strong women.

And Jenghis Khan's wife, actually first chief wife, was known as being a strong woman. Well, let's talk about her origin story. Where was she born? First of what, do we say her name Borte? That's how I've been saying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So where was she born and was she one of these Mongolians?

She was part of the elite. So they are different. We call them tribes, but we can do them peoples with different lineages. Jinghis Han is from a lineage that is not in good shape in the second half or 12th century. His family had some troubles. His father really wants him to marry to a good lineage, to good family, right? So in this nomadic society, they would marry always far away. We call it exogamy. So you really need to go far away to find your bride. they wanted to go far east. And on the way, they met people they didn't thought they would interact with. Congerats, we know their name, the name of this lineage, important group.

They are wealthy people, probably much wealthier than Jenghis Khan's direct family. And the girl of the chieftain there, so Bertie, she's the same age, just like Jenghis Khan, around 9, 10 years old, maybe one year older. she's apparently a very fierce girl. She has light on her face and fierce eyes. And I think it's super interesting that the description is the sources. They show her already as this intelligent girl, like bold girl. The description of her is almost like the description of Jenghis Khan as a boy.

He's also a fierce boy with fierce eyes. That's what they say. It's like they match. They are all the same. Marie, what are our sources for this? I mean, this is an incredible detail in a society where you wouldn't imagine that you would have this kind of detail. Yeah. So we have one main sources for this.

It's called the secret history of the Mongols. And it's a 13th century sources. There are discussion on when it was written. It was written probably around 1250s. So after Jenghis Khan died, he died in 1227. So a little bit after. So this is just before Marco Polo leaves for. Venice in 1271.

Yeah, yeah, it's ready to go, you know. And then the story was known before. Like, there are oral stories, anecdote, dates back to the time of Genghis Hans, you know. So... Just talking about those fierce Mongol women, I mean, it's thanks to Marco Polo that I have one of my favorite characters in history, who's a Mongol woman, Kutaloon, who is, I think she's Kubla Khan's niece or something. And we'll come back to Borte in a second, our heroine Borte.

But with Kutaloon, the story from Marco Polo was that she was, she was such a fierce warrior that she said, I will only marry someone who can defeat me in a wrestling match. Yes. And if you can defeat me, I will marry you. But if you don't defeat me, I want 10,000 of your horses. And she ends up as the Mongol with the greatest number of horses, according to Marco Polo, of any Mongol man, woman or rock. And she comes later, a bit later than Borta, doesn't she? Yeah, it's true. She comes later, but it's the same lineage. And it's the same idea behind what at that time they expect from women from the high society because it's interesting high society you know so they really expect them to be not exactly like men but able to be as strong as a man maybe if they have

to replace them or fight them and they can live without them also like you know they don't need to be married again in case the husband die or in case of divorce these ladies are not doing the ironing for anyone well i mean yes and no because at the same time, very often, they own the houses. So the houses of tents, like I said, Gere or York, and those big tents belong to the women. And it's still the case today in Mongolia, in nomadic society, yeah, women own the house, the Gere, the tent. And if they want to tent the men away, they just... They have the right. Yeah. Whenever you say the name Gare, I love language, I really love language, but in Hindi and Urdu, the word Khar is for home.

God, I wonder if it comes from there. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's certainly the same word. It's in Mongolian today and before. And the word Urdu is the same as the word hoard, the title of your book. Exactly. I didn't know.

Gosh, that's amazing. So can we just for a second talk about Genghis Khan? Let's just talk about Genghis Khan for a second. So, you know, you say that they had almost parallel stories. He wasn't born Genghis Khan. He had a different name and that name itself has significance. Tell us about Genghis' origin story. Yeah, so his name originally is Timujin.

Timurgin means something like blacksmiths. You have to understand that at that time, iron, metal work is very important. It means you're part of a special elite. You maybe have a great future also because with iron you can cast weapons. But you can also build some horse wagons. You can do a lot of things. Today in Central Asia, there's still a great prestige. associated with engineer, and people always call themselves engineer as a title.

A similar sort of idea, I think. Yeah, it's true. And also today in Central Asia and Mongolia, you still have a lot of metal productions, you know, mining places, and, you know, we know there are the resources partially still there. So it's iron, but it can be, of course, also gold and silver. Copper. Copper. Absolutely.

But when does Timurgin, the great blacksmith, when does he become Genghis Khan? So we don't exactly when he's born, but around. 11-60-something. We know that in 1206 precisely he received this title. Maybe the title was given to him a bit before, but clearly 12-06 is a shift, a moment when he becomes this huge, big, super-powerful ruler of all the nomadic people around him. Just to clarify, so Temujin is his name, but Genghis Khan is his title. His title, exactly. Okay, but Bortar would have married little Temujin. who at the age of sort of nine or ten? Well, yeah, she was promised to him at that age.

We think she actually married when they were around 17 or 16 years old. Okay, so you're promised, but that doesn't mean that you live together at all. It's just that that is your destiny. You're going to be with this man. So in this case, it's super interesting too, because Tamugin was arrived in the camp of birthday. They met, they said, oh, this is going to be my fiancé, and then they decide to leave the boy, Tamugin, start spending time with. his future in-laws, this is very interesting.

So because he needs to prove himself a good boy for his new family to be trained, probably by his father-in-law, to show, you know, he's a good worker that is... Worthy of butter. Yeah, worthy of the daughter. And he was supposed to stay there until the marriage. But then his own father died, attacked in another part of Mongolia. So he had to live without being married. But then the oath is there.

So he will go back and ask her hand. But isn't it true that Bortes' father has a dream about Temejin, which makes them quite happy that this match is a good match? Yeah. Tell us about the dream of Bortes' father. He said that he had this vision of his marriage and of his boy, because in sources they really explained that they met by chance. It was not supposed to be.

It was not written. Suddenly, you take the opportunity. It was not supposed to be. You go to another place and you meet someone, something happened. Well, it means something. It means you have to react to what's happening to you. It's a spark, we would call it in a bar these days. It's also a very clever way of being supple.

Not stick to the initial plan. It's like, oops, maybe there's a better plan. Nothing is preordained. I said in the Christian thing where it's preordained, everything was preordained. Oh, and on the dream thing, I had read somewhere that he had dreamt, Borses' father, that a falcon, A white falcon came swooping over and dropped the sun and the moon at his feet. And he took that as a sign that this is going to be a great man who is going to marry my daughter.

It is true. And also it says something about social harmony in this society because sun and moon are the two symbols, almost like religious symbols from the Hun period, which symbolized the entirety of society and the harmony and the couple. and the fact that they are two different symbols together, like creates happiness. The idea behind is also to show how deep connection with the religion of the time. I mean, so everything is there. The in-laws will be happy, but Genghis Khan has had to go back home to look after his brothers and sisters because his father has died. Do we know how Genghis' father has died? Jing's father was probably poisoned. Well, that's what the secret history said by enemies of the family, and they apparently poisoned him during a celebration.

And in any case, when he come back to his camp, Changi's father just died. And there's no one. I mean, the other kids are too young. Jingi's mother is alone. She really needs her eldest, well, second eldest son to help. But he's still just a little boy. I mean, he's only just a little tween, really.

Yeah. And that's why he cannot get the power at that moment. It cannot get the power of his father, dying father, because in Mongol society, in nomadic society, you need to have a man who's really able to rule, not a kid on the throne. It doesn't make sense because it's a harsh work and you don't give this harsh work to a 10 years old boy.

Yeah, he's in big trouble. And that's where and when at that moment precisely, Bertie will change his life. Because when they made this exchange, his marriage exchange, so Timujin came and gave his workforce to Bertie's family. What Bertie gave in exchange is a very precious thing, is a black fur coat,

which means if I'm a lot of, I translate into today's terms, it would mean maybe one million pounds, you know. Or a Lamborghini or something. Exactly. Well, well done. So it's a huge amount of money. She brings that to him in exchange. So when they will finally marry a few years after that, he has this amount of money.

And this is going to help him to build up his career to set up alliance with powerful people. That's going to help him to fight. negotiate. So he's a man of substance because of what she puts on his shoulders. I love this story. I love this story because they could have dismissed him. Wouldn't have guessed any of this. Fake it till you make it, little boy. And so the little boy grows into a young man, thanks largely to the protection that this actual cloak of fur gives to him. At what point does he feel worthy enough to go back and claim Borten? Is she waiting for him? Yes. It said that she's waiting for him, but her father is a bit worried because Timujin is still young and his father had died and he's in trouble. So there's

a bit of negotiation and it seemed that his future mother in law, Bertie's mother was in favor for the marriage and also one of Bertie's brother. So they also say, no, we need to trust this Timujin. It's a risk. It's clearly a risk. And I think also I like the idea that a father, although he provides his daughter, if you think there's a risk for her, is not going to send her away. And you see that really after that, when they married Mongol princess to other people outside, you know, the nomadic people, they are always super careful. They always watch that they are treated well.

And if not, they certainly very harshly complain and call them back. They don't want to send their girls, you know, and living in terrible conditions. And like the Byzantines. Yeah, yeah, like the Byzantines or even in India, you know, where even if you make a marriage where you're sort of brutally treated in your in-law's house, there is the belief that you stay. You just stay quiet and you, even if there is violence, you stay. Even if there's alcoholism, you stay. But the Mongol say, you know what, sod that, come home. We don't need them. Come home. And also, you know, it goes really far because

the Mongol woman is not supposed to take the religion of her husband. She can have her own religious practice. So if she married a Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, whatever husband, she can keep her own. And that's also super, super special for the Middle Ages. This is really feminist society, I'm getting, you know, for the first time. We're looking at the Mongols quite differently now, are we? Completely and utterly. So he does manage to convince the family, thanks perhaps to his mother-in-law and his brother-in-law, saying, no, look, let's risk it. He's worth it.

But soon after he gets bought it back to his camp, the drama. Something happens, which may vindicate the father-in-law's fear for his daughter. What happens? Timi Jin's camp is raided by enemies called Merkits, forest people who had all problems with the Mongol, all the issues from the past. But it's not Temujin's fault, but still, people come, they raid the camp. But then it's very early in the morning, apparently, and Temujin only have a few horses. So he ran away because he cannot fight those Merkits warrior. They are too powerful.

And they want to kill him. I mean, it's true that if you want to have a long career, you need first to live, right? to survive. So that's what his family says. His mother says, you have to hide and go first before everybody. So he flies away on his horse. And the rest of the families, including his mother, could find other horses. But then Bertie is left behind and she has no horse for her. So someone help her, probably a servant, there are different versions, but someone help her to hide into some sort of cart with felt in it, like wool and stuff. And she's inside. It's caught. It's covered, but it's a very heavy cart and it goes slowly, slowly. And the market, they don't know

who's in it. They just talk to the driver, to the woman, driving it, and then it's bad luck, but the carts broke on the way. Yeah. Oh, no, the wheel brakes. The wheel brakes, exactly. Just when they're getting away. Bert is in panic. She goes out of it. Oh, she tumbles out. Oh, God. They catch her at that moment, and then they understand she's special woman. You know, she's not any woman in the camp. She's Tamijin's wife. So they practice what we know was practiced sometimes at that time in the step. They take her as a hostage and give her as a wife to their own chief.

Kidnapping women, but these are important women. So you just don't kidnap them. You marry them. So this again is the difference, startlingly counterintuitive from what the common thought of the Mongols is. Also, this happens in different histories where a woman is captured and taken either as a slave or a wife. And the family mourns and says, well, she's dead to us. now because she's been with another man. Not Timmergin. Timmerchin's so upset by the taking of border.

There is a quote attributed to him that he says his bed was made empty, his breast torn apart. This is not a man who is just going to say, oh, well, bad luck, get another wife. That's not him at all. Absolutely. I agree with you. There are two things. One is how also you see how he was married to Bertie was not like a violent way. It's a decision.

they are on egalitarian basis. So it's so different. Then another context, a context that probably the Mongols want to change this kind of very hard social relationship with kidnapping, violence, raping, they don't want that for themselves.

So I think that's also the story behind. And also, it's so moving because in a way when Timurgin is a shame of himself, he says, I'm ashamed. Because he ran. I ran away. I had no other choice. Because politically speaking,

it was better to do that. He had to survive. first, if he wants to help his wife, he has first to survive. But still, he feels ashamed. I think as a historian, I have to say, when I read the secret history of the Mongol, it's so interesting, he's supposed to be the hero, you know. It's supposed to be this super powerful warrior. And you see this young man super desperate.

A weeping. Loses his wife. So he goes off and he finds allies. Yeah, he finds allies thanks to the fur coat. That's where the fair coat becomes. change his life, you know. So he says, he exchanged it. So he went to this powerful king,

the Karate king, with probably a Turkish-speaking person. Mongolia at that time is a full of different type of people. So he went to them and asked them if they can support militarily his actions against America. And he wants his wife back. So he built up a new army, a small army. And then they attacked the American. And when he comes to the camp of the American,

Can I read from the secret history at this point? Oh, sure. Please do. Please do. What we might do is read from this and then take a break and we'll come back after the quote. As the pillaging and plundering went on, Tamujin moved among the people that were hurriedly escaping, calling Bertie, Bertie. And so he came for her, for Lady Bertie, was among those fleeing people. She heard the voice of Temujin and, recognising it. She got off the cart and came running towards him. and although it was still night, Lady Borte and Coachin both recognised Tamugin's reigns and tether and grabbed them.

It was moonlight. He looked at them, recognised the Lady Borta, and they fell into each other's arms. Welcome back. So just before the break, we had that stirring reading of Borte, Borte from William Darylpore. It was very good. I thought it was very moved, actually. And they fell into each other's arms. Who knew the Mongols' people? at that. Yes. It's so beautiful. Yes. It is lovely. Okay, we've sort of gone step by step thanks to

Mary, who is just such a brilliant guest on this. Can we just talk more sort of grandiose themes in this half? Because I really want to understand what it is like to be almost, you know, the Empress of the Mongol Horde and what her position will be in that.

So he gets her back. They are together again. He's now with his black coat, got allies. He's won a battle against the markets who are proper enemies. Can we just take a quick look at what happens to the market? Because presumably to fall out with Genghis Khan at this point in his career is not a wise move. They will be annihilated.

I mean, he will fight them up to the end. And actually, this will trigger his own campaign, conquest, outside of Mongolia. Because the markets are going to run away far, far, far, but there's always Jenghis Khan behind and his men. And then he will go after them into Central Asia. Into Quarazum. Yeah. That's one of the reason for what we call the big Mongol conquest. You have to see that these internal issues among nomads.

First of all, the important people for them are the other nomads. Genghis decide that those markets are really so dangerous because they are really good warriors. They say they submit, but they never really submit. They lie, you know, and that's the worst because they are not loyal. So this story of love and revenge, a whole Mongol empire of Genghis Khan is built on love and revenge, isn't it, really? Yes, it's true.

Without Bertha, none of this would have happened. And also, I think it's not only about war and like fighting on the battlefield, it's negotiation. It's where can you get the wealth? What do you do with it? How you buy alliance, by marriage, by, you know, with money. On that aspect, clearly women. So, Bertie, but also Denghis' mother and then his daughters are going to play a very important role. politically speaking, they advise him.

Bertie, in several occasions, would tell Jengis, don't. do this or do that, you know, just be careful of this guy. It's super dangerous. Just leave him, like Jamukha, one of his enemies. Also, she will fight against a terrible shaman called Ted Tangaree who actually really want to block the development of the dynasty. Because what Berthe is creating with Jingis is a dynasty. They're going to have sons, four sons and probably five daughters. And this family is the beginning of the dynastic lineage of the Jingisid, the great Genghis seed up to today, you know, we still know who they are, you know. Is she now with her new status and by her man's side, who's now Genghis Khan?

Are there people painting her or him, or are there any representations near to the time of her life that show her in her grandeur? After 12.06, when Genghis starts going to Central Asia, China, big conquest, he's more than 40. So it's not a young man. Bertie, she's the same age. So for that period of time, it means she's a mature woman. She's certainly not going to go everywhere with him on all those conquests. She's much more useful, organizing all the resources, organizing the hordes and the camps in Mongolia. So actually, when he's away, she's the most trustworthy person for him. And she will stay and rule instead of him with his brother probably and other people of the family, but she's the

one who decides she organized all the resources, the camp and everything. And then she disappeared from the sources in a way. We know she's still around. We know she has this position. We know also that probably she lived after Jingis died, after 12, 27. And probably she also organized the first image of Jenghis Khan, there's a, for the Mongol period, cult of ancestors. So when the great ancestor died, there's a worship organized. There's a big, big cult organized for this person. And it's big logistics. It's not a single little things. Like twice a year, people would come by thousands from everywhere to perform rituals. So she's, the wife, the chief wife, is supposed to organize this cult. So probably she was in charge with this. Marie, before we go deep into all this,

Paint us a quick picture of the very quick Mongol expansion that takes place after he's got Butterback. After 1206, after the marriage, Changis gathered altogether all those nomadic peoples. And the Merkik and others refused are annihilated or integrated by force into his armies. Then after 1206, he went into China, mainly northern China and central China, conquered all those areas, went up to Beijing. conquered huge cities. In Central Asia, it would go almost up to the Abbasid Caliphates. We have coins with the name and title of the Caliph at that time and Jenghis Khan's next to it. Jenghis Han is on top of it, basically. That's the idea. So what we don't know very often is like we think about 1258 when Baghdad is taken by the Mongols under a grand son of Jenghis.

Already during Jingis time, the Abbasid Caliph said, oops, this, this, this. This guy is a problem. Exactly. We should be super careful, you know. When I was last in Afghanistan, I went to Bamian. And opposite there is the city of the screams. And this was one of the first places that Genghis attacked in Afghanistan. And the city refused to submit and it was besieged.

And an arrow from the city killed one of Genghis's sons. Yes. And the city was then betrayed eventually by a. princess. And Genghis, when she comes, claiming her reward, he has the princess rolled up in a carpet and pulled around Afghanistan until she falls to bits as punishment saying that I would never allow anyone that betrayed my own people to marry. Yeah, if you can betray your own, you can betray our own. And to this day, this city has never been lived in again. It's this sort of very bleak archaeological site dug by the French at Daffa. It's the most resonant site of horror,

the city of Screeves. Yes, it is, but there's also a lot of legendary account after the conquest around what happened during this time. Basically, we know that, okay, two things. One is, Jingis considered that a city emptied, if everybody's killed, there's no one to pay taxes and tribute after that. It's a stupid thing to do. That's what he's going to teach his sons. We are going to make some mistakes in Central Asia, also destroy entire city and say, this is a very stupid thing to do. We need people more than everything else. you don't kill everybody and if you want some cities to be destroyed usually he wants the fortifications to be destroyed but not inside the city the classic case was mirv wasn't it wasn't that the great massacre

they said that but then you know the source are from the subject people so it's just one part of the picture the idea is like clearly they were very strong battles there were a lot of violence there's a lot of blood that's no question about it but actually also a lot of mystific and a lot of stories circulated at that time because Mongols knew they were outnumbered. They knew that if the sedentary people would know how many they are in front of those groups of Mongol warriors, they would just raise and fight and they would win. So they wanted people to fear them. So they would let terrible stories circulate on them.

So just don't dare to challenge us because this could happen, but we didn't do it. It's propaganda. It's like a really early form of terrifying propaganda. It is propaganda, yeah. Can I just, again, bought it, my girl, I just love. There are things from the secret history, again, which I love. And just to, you know, you said that she's back at home. She's sorting out, organizing the hordes, organizing logistics, enabling Genghis Khan

to take over these great swathes of land that he is managing to. So there's a story about in the secret history of their son coming into their tent while they're in bed and asking for help with the enemy. And I don't know, it's a long bit. So, Willie, do you want to split it out with me? Let me start and then you take over, okay? Before Genghis could utter a sound, Lady Borter sat up in bed, covering her breasts with the edge of her blanket.

Seeing her son weep, she said herself in tears, what are those Kwongtan, the enemy, doing? They recently ganged up and beat Kasa, and now why do they make my son kneel down behind them? What kind of behaviour is this? Thus they covertly injure even these younger brothers of yours who are like cypress and pines. And truly later, when your body like a great old tree will fall down, by whom will they let govern your people, who are like tangled hemp?

When your body, like the stone base of a pillar, will collapse, by whom will they let govern your people? Who are like a flock of birds? How will people covetly injuring in this fashion your younger brothers who are like cypresses, and pines, even allow my three or four little naughty ones to govern when they are still growing up. So spoke Lady Borte and shed tears. On these words of Lady Borta, Genghis said to his son, whatever you may wish to do within your power, it is for you to decide. That story is so powerful because she speaks first. First of all, she's like, I've got this. It's a bit like Empire Ponnis, as?

I don't know, if only. And also, I think, I mean, look at the scene. They are in their gear, they are in bed, and the son come in... Such a domestic picture. Yeah, familiar. It's a family story. They're covering herself up with the sheet, I love it. But what do we take of the Cypresses and Pines? I mean, what is she saying to her son?

What is she advising him to do? And why does Genghis can't say, you know what? You've got this. You really do, you got this. Whatever you want is fine. Just do it, son. No, what the thing is, she will always advise her sons to be, in one hand, to be careful, in another hand, to defend themselves and to be unified.

with the rest of the family, but it's all among themselves. And there are lots of moments during the secret history when she says, hey, let's speak about, you know, sisterhood and brotherhood. That you have to be together. And you can imagine that how much power they have, how much wealth and how much territories and how much people at some point they have. They shouldn't fight each other. That's the main thing she has in mind, too. It's how to protect them from themselves as well. I think that's an amazing story because, way, the Mongol will succeed for several generations to have some sort of harmony. They were tensions, clearly, but still, they were always trying to fight in all possible ways against attentions.

I should ask at this point, we've painted this picture of this great love affair, and Genghis rescuing his wife and she falling into his arms, and then the two of them in bed and the sun walking. It's all very domestic. But we have that famous story, and it may be complete nonsense, that sort of a quarter of humanity's got the genes of Genghis Khan, because every one captive woman in the whole of Central Asia gets brought to his bedroom as tribute. I mean, is that nonsense? How would you interpret these two things? So I start really like talking with my colleagues who are doing genetics, you know, which is not my thing.

But it's super interesting. So two things. First, okay, Jengis raping all the girls make no sense. Like he has some concubine, but very precise number of persons were allowed. So this doesn't make sense. But what makes sense more is how is some. build up lineage in all of Eurasia. One son will go to what is Russia, Ukraine today.

Another son will be a lineage in Central Asia. Another one in Iran, Iraq, another one in China. So they all build up very strong house, very strong lineage with identified wives. We call them chief wives. They were other wives, but cagondary wives. Only the chief wife, often the first one, would keep the children. And those lineage are going to be protected for generations and generations. and I would say for centuries, because this is a lineage of Genghis and Berthi.

It's like almost religious. I'm sitting in Delhi and, of course, the Mughal emperors here were very proud of their descent from Timor and from Genghis. It's sure. Using the terms Mughal, yeah. Talking with geneticians, we think that clearly there is a common DNA program, a huge number of people in Eurasia. It's not Europe.

It's really a part that is central Eurasia. They have no idea when and how it happened, but they have no better explanation than Genghis Khan's time with his four sons, giving birth to strong lineage with multiple sons after and daughters and up to 18, 19th century in some areas. But it's more like a family reproduction business than raping all over the place. And would you imagine that that rape did take. place at all or are you saying that that's just a little wife's tale? I think that, of course, rape happened, unfortunately, and it's visible in the sources,

but it's like warriors in cities. They were allowed to rape for a period of time. They were allowed to do whatever they want. When they capture a city, it's a reward, isn't it? Exactly. It's a reward for the soldiers, yeah. For a period of time. Appalling, but it has happened and we've covered it in all of the empires that we've done. The Romans did it. The Greeks did it. The Ottomans did it. You know, this city is yours, you've fought for it, you've bled for it, it's yours. But one thing that I'm so intrigued by, I was just, while you were chatting just a mile ago, looking through images of Bortet. And the ones I found are sort of beautiful, golden images actually from India,

talking about sort of the, from the 1400s to the 1500s, these paintings are extraordinary and exquisite. Of Borté and Genghis Khan sitting together. Now in the West, our portrayal of Genghis Khan is Dothraki. He's the savage with the fur hat and the fur cloak on a horse charmed. charging towards you with some kind of curved blade and you've had it. But here, you've got this elderly couple sitting next to each other, almost touching. And in this golden sort of throne, they look the very height of sophistication in the images I'm seeing from the east. Does that remain to this day? There are two very divided opinions about who he was and what he represented.

Yes, I think it's true that on that point, the Mongol really wanted to show the image of a peaceful couple. It's a case for Jenghis Han and Bertie and for then other sovereigns after them. The idea is like when ambassadors come to a Mongol court in front of them, you have the Khan, but you have his wife next to him, his chief wife, sitting on the same throne. And we know they used double-seat throne for the couple. And actually it's not the emperor on one side, the impress on the outside. It's very much a couple, the royal couple that you would see at courts. and they would show themselves, display themselves as such, and in love also. So you have a lot of miniatures when you see them like talking to each other, talking secrets

to each other, being very close. At least, at the official image they want to give us, they want to transmit to us. So it's so far from the idea of violent barbarians. At what point, I mean, we're coming to it unfortunately and sadly, and I'm very sad about this by the end of our time together. Tell me this. I mean, who goes first? Is it Genghis Khan or is it border and what happens to the one who's left behind?

It's a kind of a mystery. So we think probably Genghis went first. But you know he died during campaign in central China in 1227 during summer. It was like taboo. Nobody was allowed to talk about it and his body is, his burial. We don't know where it is still now. It's the famous secret, isn't it? Where is the burial of Jenghis Khan?

Probably they took it back to Mongolia. that would make sense, but we're not sure of it. So imagine birth is the same story. We don't know where her body lies. We do believe she was buried next to him in the same area. That makes sense. What we know for now is that a cult developed after end of 13th century and up to an 18th century, a cult to the eight white tents of Jingis.

In these eight white tents, you would find a coffin with the bed. body of Jingis and his wife birthday together. Of course, we think this coffin was in fact empty, but as a symbol of the couple together. And this white tent would move in an area, which is now probably in northern China. It moved. And people would worship this white tent. This white tent would be symbol of Jingy's spirit and his wife. She's the mother of the Mongol Empire. And that's what people believe at that time, and that's what people still believe today. Marie, what about that story that we also have of this funeral cortege heading towards Karakoram with all the booty from the conquests and the slaves who carry it are killed

so no one discovers it and everyone looks for the burial but never finds it? Is that again just a legend? Yeah, it's part of a legend, clearly. So the thing is, it's taboo. and they hide at that time. Even in the cemetery, we know nothing. We know nothing of where Jenghis brothers are buried. We know nothing of where the other is kids.

We're buried sons and daughters. I've been to Jaitu's tomb in Sultania and Iran. Yes, exactly. So, I mean, this secret about burials is something that is part of Mongol spirit tragedy until the end of the 13th century. But then when they converted, a Mongol converted, especially to Islam, they change. They build up mosoleum and people would do pilgrimage or rituals around their mosoleum and burials.

There's a lot of change after the spirit. But the early Mongols were very secret about burials, so secret that till today we don't know. It's amazing it's never been found. People have looked. You know what their idea was? It was like that you pray and worship their spirits. You don't need the body, right? So they would build up places for rituals like the eight tents elsewhere.

And they would let the body in peace. They let the bones in peace. Let the lead the bones to rest in peace. But the story and the veneration continues. Can I just say this has been one of my favorite episodes of Vampire in such a long time. I cannot thank you enough. Honestly, it's been such a pleasure. Also, it's unexpected.

Really surprising at every turn. And if you want to read Marie's excellent book, Horde, you might get a discount if you come and join the Empire Club. The Horde, How the Mongols Change the World. It is an exceptional book by an exceptional author and an exceptional storyteller. It has been such a delight to have you. We must have you back because we'll do, I'm sure, a series on the Mongol Empire at some point in the future. I would love to. I would love to. Thank you so much.

That is all from us for this episode. Goodbye from me, Anita Arnan. And goodbye from me, William Duremberg.