Empire: World History - 188. Bonnie Prince Charlie: The Young Pretender

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

In 1688 the Stuart King James II was ousted from the throne by his daughter Mary and her husband William of Orange, in what is called the Glorious Revolution. This momentous change would set in motion decades of unrest across the British Isles, as the supporters of James Stuart; his son the ‘Old Pretender’ James, and his flamboyant grandson, ‘Bonnie Prince Charlie’, both exiled in France and Italy, sought to restore them to the throne of Britain. In Scotland especially, the hereditary home of the Stuarts, rebellion was constantly brewing amongst the Scottish clans, where demands by the English king for them to bend the knee would result in the bloody massacre of Glencoe…finally, with time passing and the momentum of the Stuart cause fading, the Young Pretender; Bonnie Prince Charlie, took up his family’s struggle and sailed to Scotland to reclaim his father’s crown….the storm clouds of revolt were brewing. What would be Scotland’s fate, and indeed that of Britain? In today’s episode, William and Anita are joined by historian Jacqueline Riding to discuss the Jacobites and their fight to restore the Stuarts to the British throne, in the build up to the cataclysmic Battle of Culloden… To fill out the survey: survey.empirepoduk.com To buy William's book: https://coles-books.co.uk/the-golden-road-by-william-dalrymple-signed-edition Twitter: @Empirepoduk Email: [e-mail] Goalhangerpodcasts.com Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett Producer: Callum Hill Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.empowerpoduk.com. Captain Richard Robinson's last voyage had not gone exactly to plan. His ship, the Brigantine Anne, had sailed from Liverpool. in late July 1745, bound for the Baltic port of Riga. The outward journey was uneventful, and, having loaded his brig with a cargo of timber,

the captain and his crew embarked for home. Navigating the treacherous seas around the British Isles was no simple matter. But while heading south past the west coast of Scotland, the unusually rough winds drove the And to seek refuge, near the small inner Hebridean island of Cana, located 12 miles off the southwest of sky. And here she remained, until a sequence of disturbing incidents,

forced her captain to take his vessel back out into the open stormy seas. The Anne finally docked at Liverpool at around 11 o'clock at night on Thursday the 15th of August, and early the following morning, Captain Robinson hastened to the chambers of the mayor, Owen Pritchard. Under oath, the captain recounted his story as a clerk scribbled down the particulars. You do love a reading, don't you? You love a reading.

And this is a particularly good reading because we've just had episodes on the Acts of Union. Today, I'm delighted to say, we're joined by historian Jacqueline Riding, author of Jacobites, a new history of the 45 Rebellion, to discuss, well, all these words that you probably have floating around in your consciousness, but we want to put the meat on those bones. So words like Jacobite, the name, Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Battle of Calodon, all of these... Floating around the corner of your consciousness, a Scottish listener of who are out there in their hundreds of thousands know this with their porridge in their morning. This is the centre of life. Well, as I was explaining to Jacqueline, you and our producer are part of the provisional

wing of the I Am Scottish movement. But for those who aren't members of that particular merry band, Jacqueline, welcome. Hello. Hello. Good morning. Hello. I mean, I don't know whether I count you as part of that. I suppose, I mean, as an expert, you must be honorary queen of the clan. Honorary Jacobite queen. Well, I'm certainly a Jacobite. That's it. Very good. Okay. So let's start with something very, very basic. When we say Jacobite, what do we mean? And in this sense, I'm not a Jacobite. I'm a Jacobite in the sense that I have, you know, I study it and it's fascinating and I'm determined that it integrates itself into the broader sense of 18th century British European world history. So that's my, I'm a cheerleader for Jacobite history. But the simple answer,

there's a complicated answer as ever, and then there's a simple answer to what is a Jacobite. Okay, so give us both. We can, we'll fasten your seat bells, William. Right, let's both. That's not simple, then go complex. So when it comes to the late 17th century, 18th century, Jacobites are the followers of James II of England and Ireland and 7th of Scotland, who was removed in the glorious revolution, as described in 1888. And Jacobites, because it comes from Jacobus, for James, are supporters of his right to rule alongside the senior branch.

which is the male branch, which is James Francis Edward Stewart and then his son, Charles Edward Stewart. So this is the line that Jacobites support. The Stuart line, the main male Stuart line. Exactly. The elder branch of the Stuart line, which is expelled from England and Scotland in 68, and the return of which is supported by Jacobites. So it's James II and seventh, and his son, James Francis Edward Stewart, who inherits that right, and then his son, Charles Edward Stuart, Bonnie Prince Charlie,

would then inherit that right further on. And it's a song actually which children are taught to say. I was taught to sing when I was in primary school. We were in a choir and did it in a really quite, well, Essex harmony, take that as you will. But it is Speed Bonnie Boat like a bird on the wing, on with the sailors cry. It's the song that will sit in many people's heads

is about the last Charles, the Stuart, who would have could, have was not king. And of course, once the Stuarts, the senior branch, are exiled in 1688, they are the kings over the water. So that's where you get that kind of phrase as well. So you get drinking clubs passing a glass of wine and a toast over a bowl of water to represent their allegiance to the kings over the water, which are the Stuarts abroad. And William, I mean, your reading was that part of the song, which is on with the lad that is born to be king. Yes, Jacqueline. Tell us what the captain saw in Canada that he had to get post-haste to the authorities in London. What was that all the reference to?

So what the captain actually is witnessing is the beginnings of the rising itself. So he's witnessing the fact that Charles Ebert Stewart has already landed. Now, to an extent there were rumours, as you can imagine, had been coming to London over the previous few weeks since Charles had actually landed on the 23rd of July. So this is just before the ship's captain actually has to go into the area of the inner hevergies. So he has landed for several weeks, but there have been rumours. but this is bona fide first-hand, you know, witness statement from somebody who happened across it, goes to Liverpool, tells him exactly what he's seen, which is that there's men starting to arm,

there's money coming in, there's Klansmen joining the cause of this tall, handsome young man who everyone calls Prince Charles and this, that the other, that's what he witnesses. So it's first-hand witness statement from somebody who has no skin in the game, which then directly gets sent overnight to London, fast-tracked, and that's what the British government is. Right, okay, so that is one hell of a teaser, and that's what we're going to be examining over the next two episodes. Let's go right back. Let's go right, right back. So you mentioned James II, who is sort of the start of this, as Scots would say, legitimate claim to the British zone, which could have changed every thing, could have changed. Some Scots.

Very good. Some Scots, say, which would have, you know, completely reshaped, or differently shaped, Britain that then became the empire that we know. Who was James II and why did he matter? And why was he controversial as well? He was a controversial figure. So James II is the brother of Charles II and his heir, because Charles II, despite shagging about...

On a magnificent scale, we should say. On a global steroid-driven scale, didn't produce a legitimate heir. So eventually it becomes obvious that, in fact, James II and seventh is going to be the king of England, Ireland and Scotland. Okay, and just on that, James II and Seventh, how can somebody be James II and 7th at the same time? Can you just explain that? Well, the one thing you've absolutely got to realise,

because this is why the whole thing gets complicated, what you've got to realise is that, in fact, Scotland and England and Ireland are three separate kingdoms, three separate parliaments. They are not united. We share a British Isles, but we are not united. That doesn't happen officially until the Acts of Union in 1707, and even then Ireland is still separate, has a separate parliament to what then becomes Great Britain in 1707.

The crowns have been united under a single monarch since 603. So that's the uniting of the crowns. But even then it's still not, I mean, James the first of England and sixth of Scotland, first of Ireland and England and Scotland, uses the term Great Britain. I will make them one people. He wants to unite the British Isles under a single flag, We see those fabulous designs for a single flag, which kind of anticipate the Union Jack. But that's in the early 17th century.

This is a Stuart project to unite the British Isles under a single king and eventually under a single parliament. So that's why it's complicated. It's England, Scotland and Ireland until 1707. And then you get Great Britain and Ireland post 1787. And just to throw another element into the mix for those who don't know this history, there's also not only the division between different kingdoms, but also the division between Catholic and Protestant. Explain how that plays out. Well, you've got differences between the established churches in Scotland and England.

That's the official churches like the Church of Scotland, Church of England. You've got the Catholic Church, which also exists but has very little power because you've got various laws that prohibit Catholics and non-conformists, by the way. So there's both who are not Church of England. They're prohibited from certain professions. They're prohibited from certain educational organisations like the universities. Pretty basic stuff. So they are, certain things are absolutely blocked, being a member of parliament, you know, etc. You know, it's all blocked.

So this, if you like, is the last lingering wounds from the Reformation. The Protestants have won. They're in power. And one of the problems with James in the eyes of the establishment is that he's a Catholic. It's not just that he's from a family which they're increasingly getting tired of, he has the wrong religion. Exactly, because by the late, mid, late 17th century, England and Scotland are firmly Protestant, whichever permutation of that Protestantism is, whether it's Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Church of England, non-conformist, etc. It is predominantly

Protestant. So the idea of having a Catholic king, in charge of Protestant countries, like Scotland and England, is in and of itself anathema. And it certainly wouldn't happen in France, You wouldn't have a Catholic country with a Protestant in church. But it's not just a religious issue, it's a political issue, because of course the king is part of the constitution. And the constitution includes parliament, it includes nobility, includes these established churches, and the king. And they all sit in this sort of hopefully happy relationship.

And if you have a king who is Catholic and wanting to emancipate the Catholics, within a country which is predominantly Protestant, then suddenly you've got not just a religious issue, but it's actually a political and a social issue as well. So what to us would look like a completely natural, obvious declaration of human rights that Catholics and non-conformists can go to university, can stand for Parliament, are equal in every way to other people in the country? Is at this period a highly controversial view for the king to hold?

It is, and of course Charles II and James II were both exiled together in France, which is where James starts to find an empathy and eventually, converts to Catholicism before that point, he would have been seen as a Protestant. We know that Charles II was also sympathetic and empathetic to the Roman Catholic religion and possibly converted on his deathbed. So the very fact that the Stuarts have this complicated history over the 17th century, constantly being exiled and coming back, their influences are more pan-European, perhaps, than many of their subjects.

And they certainly pick up an interest and then start to feel an empathy with Catholic. by the time they return in 1660 and certainly by the time James II and seventh inherits the throne from his brother in 1685. And the Jacobites, I mean, they wear it on their sleeve quite literally because their emblem is the White Rose, which is linked to the House of Bourbon, which is also going to put people's backs up in England because, you know, it is a foreign emblem. It's the French. You know, it's an influence from not only a different religion, but maybe different loyalties, different priorities, people we fight with. Exactly. I mean, the whole religious affiliation with other countries, when you're perpetually at war with one particular country, which is France, which is the mega state of Europe.

everybody is having to negotiate France and its ambitions both in Europe, beyond in the Indian subcontinent, and then obviously in North America, and then the global trade issue. I mean, this is a big, it's big history, and this is why who is King of England and Great Britain, and the success or not of the Jacobite risings to put the heirs, the senior heirs of James the second and seventh on the throne, is a European and global issue, because it affects the war, It affects who joins who and when. Trades, allegiances, money flows, everything. Everything depends on this, yeah. You have a standing army of a certain number, and if you have a rebellion at home,

you've got to send your army home to deal with the rebellion. So you're destabilising the British state from within. So part of a consistent element of the French foreign policy, from the Louis XIV, through Louis the 15th into Louis XVI, which we can kind of get on to, is the destabilising of the English-British state by encouraging with men, arms, money, risings within the British Isles. So, Jacqueline, in our schools, we're still talked about what the textbooks call the glorious revolution. Now, that's a reference to the deposition of James II and the 7th,

and his replacement with Mary the 2nd and her Dutch husband, William of Orange. Now, that is always presented in the textbooks today as if it's, It's a wonderful thing, the glorious revolution, as its name suggests. But was it actually something that was popular at the time? I think it really reverts back to this idea, what's the bigger issue here? And the bigger issue is the power play in Europe. And who's the biggest cuckoo in the nest in Europe? It's the Catholic France. So it's those allegiances. And don't forget, the Stuarts are also cousins of the Kings of France. So they have a natural, familial connection with the Stuarts, the Bordons and the Stuarts, but also a religious

just connection because they're both Catholic. And I think we're interested in what people think in England and Scotland and then Great Britain. But to a vast degree, it's what is France willing to do on their behalf? And that's the issue. Who's supporting who? Yeah, who's pulling the strings? You know, if you do have a Stuart on the throne and he's beholden to the owners of the White Rose, the House of Bourbon, then, you know, who exactly is running our country? I can see that. Did they call it the glorious revolution at the time? Or is that a moniker that was attached later? And what did people in the rest of Europe call it? I mean, I think it was called the glorious. revolution because it was seen as bloodless and it was glorious because they got rid of James relatively quickly and sort of seamlessly, although of course that's not the case because what then triggers is a whole load of military risings. So it's not bloodless at all. And in fact, the whole situation is fraught for the hundred years. It's only until Charles Ebert Stewart dies, a hundred years exactly later, that any sense of a settlement has really sort of genuinely occurred. So how different is the reaction to the Glorius Revolution in Scotland? Because what we're going to see over the next 50 years is risings that originate in Scotland, trying to put back

the Stuarts who were, of course, originally a Scottish family, who ended up on the throne of England too. Is it very different the reaction to 1688 in Scotland, or only a little bit different? Well, quite rightly, the Scottish Parliament and the independent kingdom of Scotland acts independently, and their response is independent, but they come to a similar conclusion. I mean, if James II and the 7th abdicates as far as the English Parliament is concerned, in Scotland, they've got to, obviously, the King has a different relationship to the country in Parliament. It's more of a contractual relationship. They see it differently, but then they decide actually they are willing to offer the Crown similarly to William the 3rd and

Mary, Mary being the daughter of James the 2nd and 7th. So at least there is a segue from a Stewart point of view, from a ruling family point of view, but they are the junior branch. They are the branch through the female line, not the male line. So there is a difference. And this is important because while Scots today very largely look with the sort of eye of tragedy and great sadness at the failure of the Jacobite rebellions and the defeat at Collodon, all these things we'll be talking about over the next two episodes. In actual fact, a lot of Scots are fighting on the government side. There's absolutely no sense that the whole of Scotland is united behind Bonnie Prince Charlie, and that as in England you've got a divided

country, is it fair to say, a relatively small minority who still want the Stuarts back, or maybe a third? Yeah, because the difficulty, of course, calculating the strength of Jacobism is that further away you get from 1688, the more bedded in the new regime becomes. The year after the so-called glorious revolution, whatever they may call it in France, I don't know, but someone will tell us. But all of those suspicions that, those in England had, that there is just too much sympathy and too much string pulling from the French, seems to be vindicated a year later when James tries to take his throne back, completely backed by the French. Now, just tell us about that attempt in March 1869 when he does try

and seize his throne back. Well, this is the template for the risings right the way through to the 45, is that in order to invade a country, you need support from someone else. You don't have the wherewithal yourself. You've got to have a support and money is the main thing. Arms is nothing and men is nothing. But immediately you look like a foreign invader. The optics is terrible. The optics are bad. The optics is terrible. You know, his cousin to the King of France. So all the propaganda, you can see it just forming in front of your eyes, you know, the propaganda machine. He lands in Ireland because of course it's a separate country. Unlike England and Scotland, Ireland is still predominantly Catholic. And the Parliament has refused to acknowledge, or follow, what's going on in

England and Scotland. So this seems to be a good place to have a foothold. James never wants just Ireland. He never wants just Scotland. He wants all three kingdoms back. And it becomes a mantra to the Stuarts, all kingdoms or none. So he comes back with some 4,000 French troops. And how then does that first face off, as you say, the template for all Jacobite uprisings thereafter? How does it go? What happens? Well, it ultimately fails, as it turns out, at the Battle of the Boyne, even though technically the Boyne in retrospect, bit like Collodon, seen as definitive.

At the time, it was seen as a significant battle, but not necessarily the end of the rising in Ireland. I mean, the bottom line is, as soon as there's any sense of defeat, James just simply returns to France. And each time you have a failure, it becomes increasingly more difficult to try again. Hence, the closer you get to 1688 or 1714 or 1707, those ceremonial dates where certain seismic shifts occur, where you might be able to rally more people to your flag, the further away

you get from that, the more difficult it becomes. Although passion is passion. And we talked about very briefly the massacre of Glencoe, where my earnest friend here is quite involved in this. There is a dournple right at the heart of this. So the massacre of Glenn Coe, just for those who may not. have heard our previous chat about this. Even though it's getting harder and harder, even though every time James goes back and his forces are defeated, it's harder to rally an army. Glenko is a

really decisive and bloody chapter in this fight. Just tell us what happens. And the point being that the background to this is that the government wants the Scottish clans to swear an oath of allegiance, precisely because they're suspected of being sympathetic to the stewards. That's right. And actually, in their defence, they've already sworn allegiance to James, who's still alive and sitting in Saint-Germain-en-Lé. You know, he's just across the channel, so he's accessible, and they have sworn allegiance to him. So being asked to swear allegiance to somebody else. To bend the knee, to use the words of the Game of Thrones, they have to bend the knee, yeah. Well, that's what you do to a king, isn't it, I suppose, of whatever stripe.

So eventually, they ask for permission, effectively, from James in order to stop any difficulties. from the clans point of view, they ask permission from him to make this oath of allegiance just to get the government off their backs. So you're saying, look, bend the knee but with their fingers crossed behind their backs. It's like that. Okay, right. Well, do you know what? Difficult times, difficult measures. You've got to be flexible. And actually... Well, you want to save your lands and your families and the people you care about. Well, this is it. I mean, love and loyalty is one thing. But if you keep losing your money, keep losing your land, keep losing your clansmen, every single time this happened. Again, it becomes increasingly.

difficult for people to justify rising to the flag of the Stuarts. And this is something that the Stuarts, I think, are very keenly aware of, but increasingly, even they get used to where they are in exile and start to accommodate that. So when those chieftains say, look, James, hard times, we love you, but can we just do this thing just to keep safe? What does he say? Well, sadly, for the clans, and dithering is a kind of Stuart thing as well, it seems to me, they do tend to dither and not grasp an opportunity, which is why Charlie, body prince Charlie is so different because he does grasp an opportunity, which the others

tend not to. They're much more careful. Unfortunately, James doesn't send them the go-ahead in a timely fashion. And so unfortunately, it's all delayed and there's a deadline to swear the oath by and all that kind of things. You end up with this sort of, it's a shift between tragedy and farce that goes on, people scrambling around the highlands trying to get to somewhere to declare the oath on behalf of their clan, etc, etc. By the deadline, which is New Year's Day, isn't it? Which is a date everyone can remember. And unfortunately, James just dithers and dithers until he just gives them next to no time

to sign at all. But then there's also a kind of comedy of errors, which makes it even more tragic what happens at Glencoe, because they were absolutely intending, now they've got permission from James, to sign the allegiance. But when they arrive at Inverness to sign it, the notary has gone. So the notary or the magistrate who's going to take these oaths of allegiance, where does he go? And why does he go? What is the reason for him disappearing at this pivotal point where hundreds of lives could be saved,

even if people have got their fingers crossed behind their backs? Where does he go and why does he go? Is there some sort of black arts going on here? Or is it just fast? Office hours. Is it just really that? Good Lord. I mean, it's just nuts.

Well, you've been hanging around for weeks, waiting for them to turn up and then suddenly they decide to do so. I mean, look at it from somebody else's point of view. Look, they haven't arrived again. You know, it's that kind of thing. So maybe there's a bit of that. And so very briefly, what happens? The Campbell's assent to take retribution against the McDonald's of Glencoe, but rather than just marching in and attacking them,

they do this terrible betrayal of hospitality by staying with them and then falling on them in the night. I mean, you missed out the fact that Sir John Dauron, Paul, the Secretary of State for Scotland tells them to do this terrible nefarious thing. He doesn't tell them to stay with them and sleep with their women

and drink their whiskey. Have you been paying penance ever since? I once had a very, very crappy car that had a habit of breaking down and there was one awful moment when it very nearly broke down in Glencoe. And I only had a credit card. With your name down,

that's hilarious. Oh, that's very funny. It's not a great day I have to say for Drupal. No. It's a very tragic moment. But the bottom line is that this is a combination of, as you said, I think about 30 or so people actually die, which is, you know, it's significant. I once had this conversation with an Afghan who was asking me about the massacre of

Glenn Coe, having been told by Rory Stewart, I'm ashamed to say, that my family were responsible for this. And he was very dismissive. He said, a massacre, only 30 people in Afghanistan. We call that a car. crash, he said. Can I also say, thanks, Rory. Isn't he a friend of yours?

Rory's been doing this for a while. I know you're up to this. Well, he's obviously being encouraged by Alistair Campbell. Well, Campbell is my sound of the battle here. But the result, whether this is an Afghan car crash or, you know,

a serious massacre, 30 people, it sends a message. And as a result of the massacre, is it the case that all the other reluctant or waiting for her memo chieftains, you know, with the memo that doesn't come from James, do they then rush to sign their allegiance? Well, I think, I mean, vast majority already have. So I think, because they've already had that message from James, I don't know whether there's anyone left, you know, but what the key thing about Glenn Coe is exactly what Willie's just said. You know,

the idea that you actually massacre people that you've had their hospitality is the first thing. So it's a human, on a human level, it's desperately unpleasant. And on a Klansman, sort of clan culture level, it's desperately unpleasant. But the key to, of course, is that it rallies people to the flag because it's a shocking event. It's shocking, it's hard-hearted, it's unpleasant on so many levels, and hence, you know, it becomes a rallying flag for the Jacobite movement. Jacqueline, we're longing to get to the great 45 rebellion, but very quickly tell us and take us through the 15, the first Jacobite rebellion, as it's called in the textbooks. James the 2nd and 7th is dead, his son is now leading the Jacobites, the man that the English textbooks call

the old pretender. Now, tell us about that. Well, there's one in 1708. The other thing, of course, is everyone keeps saying, oh, there's only two risings, 15 and 45. And in fact, there were several, at least five before the 1745, plots, all sorts of things, you know, in order to assassinate William III. All sorts of things are going on. So this is a highly, I mean, it's not always coordinated, but there is a consistent desire to get rid of whoever's on the throne who's not a Stuart, and to bring the Stuarts back. So that we've just got to say as a kind of broad background to this. So 1708's a bit of a bit of a sort of... A bit of a damp, squibish. 1715 is a much more consistent. I mean, this is post the arrival of the Hanoverian.

So these are the descendants of Sophia of Hanover, who was the granddaughter of James the sixth of Scotland and first, the first Stuart King, who personally unites the crowns of England and Scotland. So she's got good pedigree, but she's a woman and she's the junior branch, not the senior branch, but she is a Protestant. And she's married to a bunch of Germans who speak English with a very heavy German accent and are clearly not, you know, English or Scottish or Irish. So this is the first rising after the arrival of the Hanoverian. So Sophia actually dies a couple of months before Queen Anne, which is why she doesn't inherit. Anne dies in 1714 and who arrives on the throne but George I of Hanover. So that's the arrival of the Hanoverians. Hence, the 15 is arising against

the Hanoverians quite specifically. And is it because that they are so obviously so far from being legitimate, Scottish, Irish or English? Sure. Well, the thing is that the royal families in this period are pan-European anyway. I mean, the Stuarts weren't that Scottish. They weren't that English. So it's complicated. I mean, these are pan-European dynasties, all intermarried. But the Hanoverians speak with a very, very heavy accent initially and so on. don't they? George I don't speak any English. I mean, that's pretty problematic. And you would have thought it would be problematic that the king doesn't speak English. Doesn't understand what's going on around it. So yes, of course, he's going to bring over a whole load of

his fellow Hanoverian, Germans and all that kind of thing, who would then occupy the court, potentially occupy key positions, etc., etc. So that's a problem. And it's quite obvious that the Whig, members of Parliament, there's been a recent vote where the Whigs actually come in and are now the government, and then you've got, for example, it eventually becomes dear old Walpole, Robert Walpole, seen as the first prime minister. He's a Whig. He's anti-Jacobite, anti-Stewart, pro-Hannaverian. So there's a kind of interlocking between the Whigs and their ability to and continue to rule in government and the Hannaverid.

You know, it's a slightly sort of uncomfortable marriage of convenience in order to keep both of them on the throne and in Parliament as the government. But in layman's terms, the establishment unites behind the kind of Haraverians. Yeah. And in this new parliament, you've also got the Tories, who are seen as also a kind of fifth column, basically, Jacobite. They are almost pushed out of any form of preferment or connection or government. And in fact, there's no Tory government until the arrival of George III. I want to talk about one particular man who will become so central in the 1715 Jacobite,

rising, the Earl of Mar, who I find a fascinating character. So he was Secretary of State for Scotland. He was keeper of the signet ring under Queen Anne and also quite a hot-tempered, not putting up with this German nonsense kind of guy, wasn't he? So, I mean, he's pivotal in this. Tell us more about him. Well, this is partly why I introduced the slightly complicated idea of this sort of jostling for who dominates Parliament, both government, parliament and the crown and the monarchy and stuff, is because he is one of the people who ends up being thrown out of his positions and stuff like that and in a fit of a disgruntlement. So it's not just about the Germans.

This is why Jacobism is so complicated because you have everyone who genuinely believes that the Stuarts could be back because they are the divine kings of England, Scotland, Great Britain or however you want to see it. Right the way through to people you simply see them as a better bet for their own positions, their own wealth. And Marr is a bit more on that end of the spectrum. And Ma's on that end, I'm afraid. He's not that much of him. But you've got everybody in between, everybody in between, which is why it's so complicated. And being the stewards in charge of this must be very complicated. Hearding cats. It's herding cats. Exactly right. Everyone with their own interest. Yeah. But Ma has his own personal self. He's been slighted.

He's a capable man who is in a high position of power. He's been slighted by these newcomers. And so he is, I don't know whether he's a born-again, Jackaboy, but he certainly sees that this is the potential to get rid of the impediments to his career and ambition. What does he start doing? It's the playbook. He starts arising. He starts, you know, in Scotland. And then there's a battle at Sheriff Muir, which is inconclusive. And this is the thing again about these risings. It's almost in retrospect. You sort of know whether something's a victory or not for whichever side. So they are complicated things. James Francis Edward Stewart, who is the son of James the second and seventh, who has died in 1701. So he's died. He's out of the picture now. He died in France, happily ever after,

peaceful death. No very, very sad and a bitter despondent man at San Juan-Germanel which is where the court is, just outside Paris near Versailles, not far from Versailles, big echoing palace. That's where the court is exiled. He's died. You've had the act of settlement. His son has been discounted from this act of settlement, even though Queen Anne had thoughts about inviting him to become her heir if he converted to Protestantism. And this is the man now referred to by the Hanoverian supporters as the old pretender. The old pretender. He is, and this is where the additional difficulties come in for the stewards, because he is openly backed by not only the Louise of France, the kings of France,

but also the Pope. So he's now got the full backing. Jack and we need to get on to the 45. And so let's motor through what happens with the 15. Well, James Land's in Scotland is there for a split second. The rising collapses. and then he goes home again. Even though a lot of people, a lot of scholars, and I focus on the 45, but those that focus on the 15, see that as being the one that really potentially could have succeeded because it's just after the arrival of Hanoverians. You've got added impetus to get rid of them.

They're not established yet. They're not established yet. It's all German and dodgy and they're nicking everyone's jobs. And they've got enemies in high places. So you've got powerful allies. If you want to poke them in the eye, then you've got powerful fingers on your side. So why does it fail so badly, Jacqueline? Well, it just collapses because I'm afraid James Francis Edward isn't a good enough leader.

And the thing about these rising, you need a real strong leader. And the leader has to be the steward. They have to lead the armies like William did. And that is why in the second half after the break, we are going to look at who Bonnie Prince Charlie was and why he was different and why he had a chance, despite it being a less opportune moment, whether his leadership would be able to take the Stuarts over the line and bring the Jacobites back to power. Welcome back. So we're now heading towards the great 45 uprising. And at the helm of that is Bonnie Prince Charlie.

Tell us Jacqueline who he was. And give us an image of the man because I grew up with, you know, very romantic stories of this beautiful young man, heroically leading an uprising. And then yet you hear later that he ends up as this disappointing, sozzled old man who, drunk and hopeless. And so there are two very different versions of him. Where do you stand? What is he like? Tell us all about him. That's not a bad summary, actually. Well, you know, he's brought up like any prince of the Ancien regime in Rome.

This is where the Jacobite court moves from near Paris and then moves to Rome in 1719. Why do they do that out of interest? They get kicked out. Every time there's been a problem and there's a treaty sign, the Stuarts get kicked out of wherever they are. And of course, there was a rising in 1719. And James Francis Edward, that rising fails and he ends up in Rome. He's offered somewhere to live in Rome. So the Pope is now looking at the Vatican. The Pope is now looking after the Stuarts. He still gets a pension from France, but he's now in Rome, which makes a rising even more difficult. It also presumably makes Protestants all the more suspicious of the Stuarts. We're sort of living in the popish shadow, yeah. Exactly right. The propaganda machine whirr's up because he's now at the centre of Catholicism. But is he young, beautiful?

I mean, I've seen some of the portraits. He's very beautiful looking like a sort of porcelain skin, rosebud lips, you know, these sort of very sad, longing eyes that he has in portraits, you know. Well, these Stuarts are quite handsome, but they have these beautiful brown eyes, not James II and 7th, but they do have these rather attractive brown eyes. Charles Ebert Stewart has Orban Hair and brown eyes. So he has almost a kind of Elizabeth I first, who of course is an ancestor. He has that kind of colouring.

He has the dark brown eyes and the sort of urban hair, which is very attractive. He's born in 1720. He's raised as a prince of the Ancien regime. So both physically he enjoys hunting and shooting. He's very energetic, very athletic. He's not so academic. And I think one of the big mistakes that his father makes is to indulge that lack of interest in the sort of more the theoretical.

about military campaigns, about leadership and monarchy and royalty and what your role is and learning more about Great Britain, the country he feels destined alongside his father, to rule. He doesn't seem to have that much deep information. And of course, they're isolated in this court as well. So there's good things about him. He is attractive. He is tall. He looks gorgeous on horseback. He dances very well. He dances brilliantly. He has all these. He plays instruments. He's very musical. Three languages, French, Italian, English. English, yeah. A fine cellist, I hear. Yeah, a viol de gambor, exactly. You know, they had regular concerts, and they are seen as very attractive. And when the various sort of members of the gentry and

wealthy individuals do their grand tour, which is a thing in the 17th and 18th century, do their grand tour, the destination is always roamed because of the ruins and the art and the Vatican and Michael Angelo and that kind of thing. And the stewards are there acting effectively as the embassy for any Britain that turns up in Rome. So they have lots of contacts, but they are in exile hundreds of miles away from the country that they see as being their divine right to rule. There's a rather nice moment when they go to Venice, isn't that? And he charms everybody and the English getting a terrific fuss and sort of cut off relations with the Venetian Republic. Well, everywhere he goes, He is a bit of a star performer, you know, in that sense.

He's a, and there is that sort of a lure of somebody, that tragedy is quite attractive, but also the potential because he's young. Unlike his father, his father's starting to, I think, the further down the line it gets, the more he's getting used to being in Rome. You know, he has the dignity of being a leading Catholic in Rome. He gets to a point, or at least put forward people for the College of Cardinals, which means he has some influence over who becomes Pope. And that's quite beguiling for a leading Catholic.

It gives you status and what kind of thing. So he's starting to ease, you know, himself, this is the father, ease himself into life in Rome. Charles's brother, Henry Benedict, eventually becomes a cardinal. Another rather beautiful young man. There are portraits of him, isn't it? Very handsome young boy. You know, both of the two of them together are very attractive children and very attractive young adults. And people are naturally, you know, attracted to them.

They become the life and soul of the various carnivals. in Rome or Venice or wherever it is. They love dancing, they love parties and all that kind of thing. So that's the good thing because that's the shop front. He's rather attractive and brilliant. Meanwhile, back in London, you've got the dear old Georges. Who are stolid. The dad doesn't speak English at all. The son speaks with a heavy German accent. And these guys are rock stars. Well, so Brat first versus caviar. Can I just ask, I mean, with Charles himself, does he feel Scottish? Has he got a Scottish nationalist pride? Does he call himself, indeed, when people from the grand tour come and meet him, you know, I am Charles, I am Scottish. What is the link? Well, no,

because these stewards, I mean, bearing in mind, Charles II and James II were born in London, these stewards see themselves as the rightful kings of all three nations. So it's not a Scottish thing as such. Now, look, the bottom line is, if that's where your support, the residual support is in Scotland, that's where you're going to aim. Well, you'd think you'd make nice with them. Yeah, I mean, you'd think you'd sort of play that up because you've got already a, you know, a bedrock rock of support there. Well, you've also got a country which has, like the Western Highlands, is quite obscure geographically, which means you can do a landing, which is exactly what Charles does. You can land on the Western coast. You can actually bed in without anyone really interrupting

you. And so, you know, so Scotland is a very key element to any rising. But I think we've got to be absolutely clear from the get-go. The Stuarts are interested in all three crowns, not Scotland on its own, which is why there's a problem with his Scottish commanders when Charles lands, but that's a bit later on. We've also got to really reiterate that the Stuarts believed in divine right. So that means there's no one between them and God in the context of them ruling. Whereas, and this is where the religion comes in, a lot of non-conformists, for example, even though they might have had a better time under a Catholic king in England, for example, they saw that Jesus was the head of the church, not the divine right. So there's complications there too. It's such a layered story. Tell me

at what point then, I mean, talk us through because we're going to leave this on what we like to call a cliffhanger. When he puts his cello down and gets into the boat, tell us what happens there and how he does. I mean, you've already mentioned, you know, Scotland is a good place to land. So at what point does that trip occur? Well, exactly. But what's actually happened is that in late 1743, in the beginning of 1744, the French are sponsoring an invasion of the southeast of England in support of the Stuarts. So this is a full-scale invasion with the full backing of the French. And guess what? There's a war going on in Europe. So this is very useful to create some instability in Britain in order to make their gains or the warfare that's going on in Europe and beyond to make France more

powerful. And we should remind people that this is almost a century-long conflict between Britain's and France for imperial influence right over the globe. And there are repercussions of this in Canada, in America, in the Caribbean, in Ireland, in Scotland, in the European continent, and then right on through to India, the Philippines and the far distant east. So this is literally a global conflict into which the Jacobites enter as a sort of trump card in the French pack. Yes, exactly. And you know, you can chart the way that the French uman are and then completely back an invasion and then sit back and do nothing for decades and then suddenly leap to life. It's always connected to what's going on in France and what's best for the Bourbons and for the French nation. So to cut a long

story short, Charles heads up on behalf of his father this invasion force. So he's actually on the northwest coast of France waiting for a fair wind and for a few jitters amongst the English Jacobites to sort of calm down. And then the minute there's a fair wind, this invasion force is going to go to to England, the south-east of England. And what's the scale of it? It's a big force. It's a big force. How many ships? Samuel, what are we talking about? Well, it's bigger than the two ships that Charles ends up taking in the June of 1745. This is a big invasion force. I don't know how many ships it is, but it's a real threat. This fails because of the ill winds and because of the collapse of support within England and all that kind of things. So he's left kicking his heels on the northwest of France,

on the coast. Eventually, he sort of, it's suggested that in order to not be so embarrassing, he might go to Paris and maybe live there for a bit. And then he is just abandoned by the French, because this is what I mean. There's a constant up and down, even though they're cousins, they're Catholics, etc, etc. They only really bother with them when it's useful. And so he just sits there for months, a month. It's over a year kicking his heels in Paris, and he decides unilaterally that he is going to do it himself. So he raises money, He tells the people back in Scotland, for example. I mean, this is where the main support is. It's where you can almost guarantee support. He tells them in Scotland, I'm coming back. I'm warning you,

I'm coming back. And eventually he said, I did warn you, I'm now coming back. And that's why we end up in the inner hebrides with that ship that happens across the rising. That is Charles himself. He instigates it. He gets the money, the ships. He gets the support. He has to pay for it. The French don't even give him the two ships. To be honest, I think Louis the 15th, I think he knows exactly what's going on. And he thinks, look, it doesn't cost me anything. I'm just going to leave him to it. See what happens. You never know. And guess what? It's infinitely more successful to start off with than even the French anticipated. And that's when the French coming quite late into the 45. But initially, this is Charles Edward Stewart's gig and he is doing it by himself. And go back to William's wonderful rendition at the beginning. It's almost doomed as soon as he arrives because he is spotting. here to tell us what happens. Oh no, it's not doomed. I mean, when I wrote my book, the one word that was banned from anything was doomed. And this is how I wrote the book. I wrote the book using primary sources, intelligence, letters going hither and thither. And this story about somebody

happening across the rising had didn't doom it. The rumors were already in London by this point anyway. It confirmed. It was an independent witness. He was English confirming that this was happening. And in fact, it showed you that with very little wherewithal, just sheer guts and determination, you can start arising, which nobody knew was happening. So he lands Jacqueline on the Isle of Eriske, on the 23rd of July 1745. Dressed as a curate. He loves fancy dressed as Charles. And so this is meant to be a disguise? Yes, it's a disguise. Love it. And he manages to get a few troops together and a little backing in Hebrides, and then he lands on the mainland. Take us to this great moment when he raises

the standard at Glenfinnan. Those who haven't, don't know this, it's this magnificent loch-side position where there's a great monument today. It's one of the most sort of resonant places in the highlands, and all Scots go there and weep for the Stuarts and the hopes of the rising. Take us to that scene. No, it's wonderful. I mean, this is where the myth actually does beautifully align with reality because I think it must have been the most extraordinary moment. He has spent weeks badgering, charming, bullying these clan chiefs, you know, the various MacDonald clans, you know, all these clansmen who are weary, they're weary of these risings. I mean, we've been talking about, for how long now, about these various beats of risings.

Some like Lockheel tell him to go back, don't they? Yeah, they tend to go home and he says, I have come home and all that kind of thing. They don't want to rising. They see it. as a bit ad hoc. It's all, you know, if the more organized ones fail, God knows what's going to happen here. But eventually, he starts to charm them. They start to realize, no, this is my true king, or rather this is the representative of the regent of my two king, who's obviously back in Rome. You know, I need to. My support on my loyalty is to the Stuarts. And so you end up with this sort of promise that various people are going to bring various clansmen, you know, 100 here,

200 here. They have no idea how many are going to turn up, but they've been promised that certain people are going to turn up. And so he lands in his little boat at this beautiful lockage at Glenn Finnan, which now obviously has this great monument to him, which was built in the 19th century, but he's standing there just waiting. And so you can just imagine the sort of farcical quality is that you're just sitting there with the wind blowing. But also stressful. Like, who's going to come to my party? Is anyone going to turn up? Because you're now well into the mainland. You're not on an island. This is this incredibly romantic setting with the hills and the background. Beautiful, but quite vulnerable.

Very vulnerable, yeah. And then suddenly he starts to hear the wail of the pipes, and he starts to hear the sound of footsteps on the hills. And as he's standing there, looking at the hills, he suddenly sees all these Klansmen starting to come over with the pipes playing and all that kind of thing. And then there's a thrilling moments where they all gather around him. And I doubt if anyone could actually hear that far back into the crowd,

but let's imagine they do. And just like, you know, it's one of the great moments, I think, in the film with David Niven, is that reimagining of the great moment at Len Finnan. I think it's worth watching just for that moment because I think it's pretty accurate. You've suddenly got him standing with the Stuart Standard and declaring that the Jacobite Rising, the 45, is officially started.

And with that, we'll take a pause. Join us for the next episode of Empire to find out how that uprising progresses. It's such a beautiful cinematic picture you've painted the roar of support. And if you want to hear it now, right now, you just need to be a member of our club, EmpirePod UK.com. A wonderful club with a wonderful newsletter and fantastic opportunities to hear all manner of new wonderful bonus episodes. All our mini serials, our bonus episodes, but mini serials, if you just can't wait, and I know if you've been listening to Jacqueline, because I can't wait to find out what happens next.

You get it through the club. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan. And goodbye from me, William Durimple.