Empire: World History - 212. Who Were The Three Wise Men?

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

The truth behind the story of the Three Wise Men has more connections to empire than many of us realise… Featured in every Nativity scene in school plays, churches, and art around the world, the Three Wise Men are key characters in the Christmas story. They are only mentioned once in the Bible, appearing in Matthew’s gospel described as the Magi - meaning Persians of a priestly caste from Persia. But who were they? Where were they from? And what was the meaning behind their gifts? Listen as Anita and William are joined by Professor Lloyd Lewellyn-Jones to discuss how the story of the Magi highlights the intermingling of Persian and Jewish culture at the time, as well as tensions between two great empires: the Parthians and Rome… Twitter: @Empirepoduk Email: [e-mail] Goalhangerpodcasts.com Assistant Producers: Anouska Lewis & Becki Hills Producer: Callum Hill Exec Producer: Neil Fearn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mpowerpoduk.com. We were led by a star. No, no, no, no. First we're going to do an introduction, then I'm going to give you a preface. Okay. I thought we were going to go straight in. No, no. Like I said, you don't listen.

It's all right, just follow. Okay. Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnund. And me, William Durimple. We're taking a little break from our Mughal Empress season for something festive, and we are joined by, I think, the angel of Christmas. Professor of Ancient History, Lloyd Llewellyn Jones, is here. A.k.a. the very reverent, Lloyd Llewellyn Jones.

The right reverend. Which he wasn't when he was last on the pod. What's happened, Lloyd? Well, I found God, or God found me, I should say. What's a good scholar of Persian history doing finding God like this? I know. Well, he comes in all unexpected places. Never seen ever. You are properly, properly frocked now, well and truly frocked.

He's completely frowned. Yeah, fully licensed to baptize and bury and marry and all of that. This is very handy to know. Absolutely. If any of our listeners are after a good priest in, where was the wonderful church called again? Let me tell you, he is that Egloy-Stor. He's sant, in fact, in Wales. That's where he is. That's your church. I thought that was very good. Any opportunity to show off. Right. So, I mean, is it pretty? Is it one of those old... Oh, it's lovely. It's a Victorian church, but smack bang in the middle of Cardiff. So, and it's a Welsh-speaking church. So we cater for the Welsh-speaking community, the Welsh-speaking community in Cardiff. So it makes us quite unique in that respect. So yes, I preach and pray in Welsh in my mother tongue.

Well, how beautiful. Can you say happy Christmas to all of our Empire podlessness in Welsh? Yes, I will say. Nadolik-klowen, I'm he gied. Happy Christmas to you all. Nodolid. We call it the Yeitha Nevoid, the language of heaven. Oh, well, that's perfect. We got the right guy on then.

Exactly. The speaker of the language of heaven, because what you're here to discuss is the Magi, otherwise known as the Three Kings, otherwise known as always my brothers, during the Nativity Play, because we're Indian and we have the clothes. Of course, absolutely. And my children, because they have the clothes. And these are the three wise men who visit baby Jesus after his birth. And according to the stories, but we're going to get down to the truth of all of this,

you know, they bring him those three gifts, gold, frankincense and mure. And to that effect, William and I and Lloyd, you're going to have to fasten your seatbelt and hold your nose for this. We are going to perform a little Christmas play for you. This is courtesy of the boys at Monty Python. Welcome to the Empire Porn Christmas Christmas. It's our nativity. I'm really sick at the children doing every nativity every year and I'm just desperate, desperate to perform. I'm even watching them going, oh no, that's not how she'd say it. Well, William's going to be all three wise men and I'm going to be Mandy, mother of Brian in the life of Brian. Because I think this is instructive. This is such a bad idea. No, it's a terrible idea. It's a terrible idea, but it's one of the many terrible ideas we've had on this program. So, let me see and set. Okay. So just imagine this. We are around a humble stable.

in which a babe lies in a manger crying. The mother, Mandy, turns to the baby, Brian, and says maternally, shut up! Shut up! And suddenly there is a sort of a scrubbling by the door. And three wise men appear. And Mandy is not impressed. She asks them what they're doing, creeping around at this time of night.

Back of a cow shed. Back of a cow shed, what are you doing? You're all drunk, it's disgusting. to which the wise men reply. We were led by a star. Or led by a bottle more like, go on get out! Well, we must see him. We have brought presents.

Out! Gold, frankincense and meur. Oh, why didn't you say? He's over here. Sorry, it placed a bit of a mess. What is meur? Anyway. It's a valuable bomb.

A bomb? What are you doing, giving him a bomb? It might bite him. What? It's a dangerous animal. Quick, throw it in the trough. No, it isn't. Yeah, it's a big bum bum. No, no, no, it's an ointment.

Yeah, oh, and there was an animal called a balm. Oh, did I dream it? Oh, right, so you're astrologers, are you? Well, what is he then? Hmm? What star sign is he? Oh, Capricorn. Oh, Capricorn, eh?

What are they like, then? Oh, but he is the son of God, our Messiah. You're all three wise men, so you've got to do all of them. Wise men number one. King of the Jews. And that's a Capricorn, is it? No, no. That's just him.

It goes on and on and on like this. With many jokes about meur, which I find particularly hilarious this time of year, because every child carrying the box of meur is the sulkiest wise man on that. It's like, oh, gold I get. Frankencence, that's been explained. But I'm bringing meur. Anyway, so Lloyd, We have this idea, well, actually more and more three kings coming to the baby Jesus

and giving these lavish gifts and myr to the baby Jesus. And, you know, life of Brian lampoons it brilliantly. But the story of the Magi is not the story that we do in our schools and our sort of nativity plays every year. It's much more complicated than that, isn't it? It's a lot more complicated. And that's essentially because if you look at the history of the nativity stories themselves, there are two versions of the nativity told in the New Testament, just in two Gospels, that's all.

So the first one is in the Gospel of Matthew, which includes the Wise Men. And then the second one is in the Gospel of Luke, which leaves out the Wise Men entirely, but instead has the Annunciation to the Virgin Mary. It has the shepherds, the angels and the hills outside of Bethlehem, and never the two shall meet. So in fact, when we put together our Christmas cribs every year, and we bung in the wise men and the shepherds and the oxen and the angels altogether, that is no way representative of what the early evangelists wanted us to have. So there are two completely different birth traditions in our gospel accounts, completely different. then two gospels don't mention it at all? Yeah, and then Mark has nothing about it whatsoever. Mark is

the very earliest gospel written, and he just gets on with the job the minute that Jesus is baptised. That's where Mark picks up, no mention whatsoever of Mary and Joseph, nothing at all. And John, of course, goes his other way entirely and is a very philosophical kind of gospel where Jesus is the Word, of course, the Word made flesh. So no little baby in a crib in any way, shape or form there with John. Okay, right. Let's start with absolute base. So it's St Matthew's Gospel that we have to thank for even the notion of the Magi. Who was he? When was he writing? Okay, well, we mustn't confuse the evangelist Matthew, that is the gospel writer Matthew

with the disciple Matthew. They're very unlikely to be the same person. So this Matthew who writes the gospel is not the same person who follows Jesus around that was once a tax collector and so forth. So this Matthew, our evangelist, is writing around about 80 CD. So that would make it about 50 years after the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth, of historical Jesus, about 50 years. So that's a, you know, that's a generation. And so what Matthew must be doing is working on old oral traditions, stories that were going around about Jesus. but we also know that he was utilizing in a big way the Gospel of Mark,

which was already about 10 to 15 years being circulating. And I think one thing that Matthew saw was, well, look, Mark doesn't mention anything about Jesus' birth. And, you know, if we read a biography today, we all start our biographies with birth and childhood stories, because now we believe that, you know, what happens in our childhood really is kind of endemic to what we will become, in later life. And I think Matthew had that same kind of idea. You know, there was obviously a need amongst early Christians to hear about, well, where does Jesus come from? Who was he then? So Matthew, I think, sets the record straight in that. But Matthew has a particular agenda when he's writing his gospel. We need to remember that in the early century of Christianity, the first century,

Christianity was essentially a Jewish movement. And the majority of people who were converting to Christianity were converting from Judaism. And the way that they could understand the Jesus story best was by locating it in Judaism, in Judaic practices. And Jewish tradition and Jewish prophecies. Yes, and completely in Jewish traditions. I'm guessing, and I'm feeling waves of this with Empire listeners going, yes, okay, very interesting. Why the hell are you? lot talking about it. Now, the reason we are talking about it is because there is a fascinating and not often talked about overlap with the Persian Empire. And that is why this is of supreme interest to us. I mean, it's, you know, you're looking at your dog going, what are they doing?

What are they doing? Could have got this or, you know, something about religion. It's not about that. It is about traditions which are dragged into that early story in Matthews Gospel, which cannot have come from anywhere other than the Persian experience of Jews who are living in the Persian Empire. I mean, that is the premise, isn't it? I think so. I mean, I think that, you know, the Persian Empire that we're dealing with here, of course, in the beginning of the first century is the Parthian Empire. The Parthians dominated the whole of the Iranian plateau right up to the borders of Syria and even at some point actually invaded into the territories we now think of as Israel and Palestine as well. So the Parthians

were the biggest threat to the Roman Empire. So actually what we have with Matthew's story of the wise men is this little area of Palestine, Israel, caught between two superpowers, in fact, two great empires, the Romans in the West and the Parthians in the East. And I think Matthew's story about the birth of Jesus actually comments on both of these empires, simultaneously. And that's the important thing. Now, Lloyd, when we talk about the wise men and people sing carols and you hear it in popular speech, there's a lot of talk about kings, a lot of talk about wise men. You yourself have used the phrase wise men. But I understand that the Greek in the original gospel says Magoi, which is magus in English. That's right. And a magus is something quite

specific. It's not wise men. It's not a king. What is it? Well, if we really want to to go deeper into the meaning and extract from it, it's Persian-ness, I suppose, then what we would have to translate that Ayas is a cast of priests, really. So we're dealing here with a priestly hierarchy of the Zoroastrian faith. Zoroastrianism at this point had been developing for some 250 years into a religion which we can now actually pinpoint and say, oh, this is a kind of recognisable Zoroastrian faith that we can now say is emerging in the first century.

You know, when we've spoken about Zoroastrians before, when we've looked at the Echemenid Empire, for instance, I was a bit reluctant to say that the Ekeminids were Zoroastrians. I remember, you. But now we can see in the Parthian period that Zoroanastrianism, as we understand it, is now discernible. So what Matthew had in mind when he uses that very specific term, and he could have used any term after all,

but he goes for a very specific Persian term, Magos, Magi, to emphasize, I think, first of all, the sanctity of these visitors, that these were holy men, and that they were trained in holiness, if you like. So according to traditions, the Zoroastrian priests, this caste of priests, were the repositories of knowledge, of tradition, of faith, and even kind of maintained within their minds a kind of library of the Zoroastrian faith, the Avesta and so forth, the great scriptures of Zoroastrianism, were passed down word of mouth at this point.

They were no writings at this point. So I think Matthew is very keen for his readers or listeners to understand that these people are, you know, exotic. they come from far away, from a huge empire, and also that these are men of profound faith who have received a truth already, because that's what Zoroastrianism is all about, is about Arta, it's about truth. So I think Matthew's use of these wise men is very, very specific indeed, in the term that he uses, Magi, very specific. Now, Lloyd, we're very lucky to have you with us today, because this is actually

something which you are uniquely well qualified to answer. Explain to our listeners why St. Matthew, sitting presumably somewhere in Judea, should be aware of the Persians at all. What is the connection between the people of Israel and the empires of Persia, which you've studied all your life? Yes. Well, when Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, and the Jews went into exile, After 70 years, many of them were released and many of them chose to go back home to Jerusalem. But many thousands of Jewish families didn't. They decided to stay in Babylonia and expanded, in fact, into more eastern parts of the Persian Empire as well. Which was then a far richer region than Judea? Oh, absolutely. By far, by far. And so what we have essentially is an assimilation, a mix of Jewish and Mesopotamian, Persian.

cultural influences, and some of the really great Jewish scholarship of antiquity and indeed of the Middle Ages, such as the writing of the Talmud, the great commentaries, rabbinic commentaries on the Hebrew Bible, were created in that Persian milieu. So, in fact, this synergy between Persia and Israel, Judaism is very, very, very deep and very, very strong and powerful. And Matthew would have known that because he would have known that there were thousands upon thousands of influential Jews living in the Persian Empire at this point. How can we see Persian influence in the familiar stories of the Bible? I've read, for example, that the very idea of a Messiah is something that first appears in Zoroastrianism. Is that right? Well, certainly ideas of things like

the invisibility of God is a huge concept. If you look at the Hebrew Bible and the stories that take place where God walks on earth and speaks to people, that's very ancient Bronze Age stories. But the Bible editors intermixed those with newer theologies that arose from this intermingling with Zoroastrians. And the idea of God, the creator, is certainly coming from the concept of a Huramazda, who was by foremost the creator god par excellence. In Zoroastrianism. In Zoroastrianism. The ideas of good and evil are absolutely embedded in Zoroastrian theology, which is basically

a kind of religion of polar opposites. There has to be good. There has to be bad. The truth and the lie you talked about last time. Truth and the lie, essentially. Arta and Drauga, these are the things that matter. what we get steadily over about a 300-year period from the time of the exile to the time of Matthew's writing is a filtering of Zoroastrian ideas of Godhead in particular into the Jewish tradition.

And that really is quite astounding. The Jewish God changes quite considerably in this 300-year period. So now the all-knowing, all-aware, omnipresent God. of Judaism is born for the first time, and the seeds of that birth are sown in Zoroastrian theology. Well, let's take a break here, and after the break, I want to talk more about sort of the cultural exchange and influence, particularly you've done some amazing work on a book called the Book of Esther, which tells a very Persian story. And I want to talk about that and a little bit more about how the story that we have today and that my kids will be performing or have performed

very recently on a stage. Those gifts, that idea of frankincense, mure, and especially the gold, if you ask my son, but you know how they come to be as weighty and have the longevity that they do? So just join us after the break. Welcome back. So just before the break, I mentioned a book which Lloyd knows all about because he's written a book par excellence about it. It really is a very, very good read and a story I wasn't familiar with until I came across your book, the book of Esther. First of all, a book written by a woman, which is very interesting indeed. And it's almost reads like a tale that could have come out of the Arabian nights of this sort of Persian king who's sick of his wife, gives her the heave-ho, and is looking for a new woman. Just pick up the story there of Esther, who is a Jewish woman. That's what's important.

We're talking about that sort of cross-cultural merging as we're talking about the Magi story. And I think this is a really interesting bit of that. I think in a way the Esther story, it really does tell, you. you know, the background to all of this. It's set in the city of Susa, the great Keminid capital of Susa. The king is looking for a new bride. He has a kind of beauty contest, which is really typical of the Alf Leila Wa Leila, you know, the thousand and one night stories.

Wait, wait, don't let him off the hook first. He's a git. Oh, he's a feminist thing. He's an utter, utter, I'm sorry, it's not very Christmassy. He's a total get. He has a wife. He's drunk. He's saying, display your beauty to my guest.

And she's like, I don't want her. I'm not men her. She says I rather not. I'd rather not. I don't want to do that. And he says, all right, hop it then. I'll find another way. Dreadful, dreadful. Many, many commentators have said, we should, we should find the Persian king, Xerxes, in this case, something of a comic character. I don't find him much to laugh at that myself, to be honest. He's a class one shitebag, if you don't mind me saying. It gets worse because he then has this kind of, you know, this huge misperia pageant to choose the next queen of Persia.

And one of the contendants happens to be a girl from Sousa, the local girl, who is Jewish. And this really tells us a lot about the Jewish situation in Iran in that period because there were thousands of settled Jewish families living in the great cities and also in the towns and villages of the Persian Empire. And, you know, the Book of Esther is really fascinating because essentially it is a Persian fairy story inserted. into the Bible. There is no mention in the whole of the Book of Hester of God, of the temple, of Jewish traditions, nothing whatsoever. Food, kosher, there's stuff that comes up all the time. The things that we are most familiar with in the Bible is conspicuous by its absence in the book of Esther. So what we are dealing with here is a group of diaspora Jews who have completely Persianized. They are very happy. Thank you very much. being Persian Jews, we're not looking for the Temple of Jerusalem, we're not going home, we have made very good lives for ourselves here. And I think that says a lot about the synergy that was going

on between the Persians and the Jews in this period and went on for the next six, seven hundred years, in fact, quite remarkable. So, Lloyd, when we come back now to the gospel story in Matthew, it's in Matthew 2 verses 1 to 12, there's nothing surprising. about finding Persians turning up, specifically Persian Magiator. This is something the Jewish people were very familiar with. Yes, they were very familiar with the traditions. You know, even families who were kind of split between Galilee and Persia, they would have been in constant touch. I mean, the Matthew chapter and verses that you've just given us, they do tell the story, just in case, you know, you're not a Bible reader. The story is that, you know, first the Magi arrive,

they meet Herod. Herod sees them and says, you're here to see a baby, I'd be quite interested in that said baby. Could you please come and let me know if you find the baby? Because, as we know, later, Herod wants to kill that baby who may end up dethroning him. Now Herod, just again, just to place this, those who are not from a Judeo-Christian history, is a very important figure, even in Jerusalem today. You know, you've got the Herod's gate. I mean, just place him for us in history. Herod the Great was a Roman, backed dictator, essentially, in Jerusalem, masquerading as a king and really kind of masquerading his Jewishness as well. He actually was of Nabatian background, so the area of, you know, Jordan

today. Would we call him an Arab today? An Arab Jew? Absolutely, an Arab Jew today. He was hated by his people, by the Jews themselves, because he kowtowed to Rome so constantly. And he was truly one of the villains of history. I mean, he was mentally very, very unstable. He had one of his many wives murdered. He murdered two of his sons. And we know this from history or just biblical sources. This is actual historical records. No, this is all history. The best source we have on him, of course, is the histories of Josephus, second century Jewish Roman writer. So, yes, you know, we can place him in his historical setting. Now, what's interesting about the Matthew story is that these magi come from Persia and they go to the court of Herod. Now, that's a natural thing to do because, of course,

diplomacy was all about that. So these weren't the first Parthian Iranians that Herod would have met in his long career on the Judean throne. You know, this was something which was going on all of the time. But I want to interject into that. Another element, of course, of Matthew's story, and that is he's very specific in saying that they were led to Jerusalem by a star. Now, that's very important. Yes, let's focus exactly on that. So, of course, within the Babylonian Persian tradition, astronomy had always been a huge matter. The Babylonians themselves were brilliant astronomers, probably the world-leading astronomers, and the Persians had picked up that tradition. So here is Matthew actually knowing something

about the Magi tradition as astronomers, the star searches, of course, looking for the heavens, for omens and so forth. So he incorporates that into the tale. But the star also gives Matthew a raison d'être to criticise the other great empire of the day, and that is Rome. Because at the time that Matthew sets the story of the birth of Jesus, in Rome, a comet appeared. And the emperor, Augustus, had said, ah, this comet is clearly a sign that my uncle, Julius Caesar, has now become a God in heaven. And at the same time, Augustus said, well, therefore, I must be the son of God. Okay, so there is a contender to the throne of heaven at this point. What's the source for that?

Mainly we have Suetonius, and we also have a whole series of coins, which were struck by Augustus, showing. the head of the deified Julius Caesar with this comet hanging above his head. Suetonius was a very sort of respected, sometimes very arch, contemporary historian of the time, who gives us a huge amount of work which is verifiable from archaeological. Personal detail in particular. That's right, exactly. He's quite bitchy. Oh, yeah, yeah, he really gets down to it. It does, yeah.

So Augustus starts calling himself, son of God. Well, of course, Matthew has a greater truth about all of this, which can also be backed up by Rome's arch-enemy, the Parthians as well. So throughout the Gospel of Matthew, the term Son of God is used more than any other evangelist for Jesus. And he's saying, look, don't look to Rome for the Son of God. The Son of God is here in this stable, and these Parthians have recognized it, and that's why they've come here. This is the only star that should be followed, is the one that will bring you. to the real son of God.

So what he's saying is Roman Empire liars, Persian Empire quite trustworthy, I've got the major eye to prove it. I mean, that's fascinating. This is a complete confluence of empires in that case. But also think about this as well. The one way in which the Roman Empire loved to show its grandeur was in the spectacle of tribute scenes and triumph scenes and all of this kind of thing. So if you go and you look at imperial arches in Rome,

or even in Thessaloniki, you will see time and time again, and also on Roman coins struck in this period, Parthians on their knees before Caesar. They are the ultimate show of Roman triumph, is to have Parthian diplomats wearing their distinctive Persian trousers and their funny Phrygian caps, on their knees offering homage to Caesar. And that's often an inverse of the reality, because the Parthians quite often defunds, beat Rome? Precisely, precisely. The Battle of Carrey, was that right? The Battle of Carre is a really good example of that. Absolutely. The Romans claim that as a victory. It's a Parthian victory, and we know that the Roman envoys were on their knees in front of the Parthian king. So what Matthew does with that image

is, if any Parthians are going to go on their knees and offer homage to anybody, it's going to be to the true Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is born in this stable. So can you see how Matthew takes all the symbols of empire and completely turns them on their head for his own usage there. Lloyd, when I studied my biblical studies at age 15 or something, I remember always being taught that Matthew was the most Judaic or Hebraic of all the gospel writers and that he's often looking to see in the events of Jesus' life, an echo of things that had happened in the Old Testament and the fulfillment of prophecies. So following that up, Tell us about this figure Barlam, who's in, I think, the Book of Numbers.

That's one of the things that Matthew might be thinking about at this point, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. So in the Book of Numbs, this character, this prophet, a seer called Balam, has a vision in which a star appears in the heavens, which will foretell the coming of the Messiah. And so, of course, that also gets inserted into Matthew's Gospel, along with the whole narrative, and this is why Herod becomes very important here, because Herod's plot, to kill the infant Jesus. And of course he sends out this terrible dictum to his soldiers to say, kill all the male babies in the town of Bethlehem who are under the age of two. Well, that, of course, replicates the beginning of the book of Exodus, where the Pharaoh of Egypt also issues this horrific order that the children of all Hebrew women,

the sons beneath the age of two, should be murdered too. So in that respect, Jesus becomes the second Moses as well. So prophecies are fulfilled in many different ways in Matthew's gospel, especially those to do with the move from Egypt to freedom. So again, the oppression of a great superpower of an empire and then the freedom that can be had beyond that. So Matthew is very carefully and politically using the Old Testament for those purposes. Now, I'm going to sound. like my nine-year-old, because I want to talk about the presence. Can we talk about the presents? I'd love to talk about it. It's a time for the presence. But just before that, I mean, you guys have

been talking about Matthew as a single writer of this gospel. And a lot of intelligence, if I can put it that way, says that a lot of these things were sort of team efforts in the end. How do we know it's one person? And then if we do think it's one person, what more do we know about him? We know nothing more about him at all, no more than we know anything about any of the gospel writers. But there's enough in the gospel as it stands, as it's come down to us, to suggest a single voice throughout this. So, for instance, there's no great change of tone in the Greek at all. So we do think single authorship is the way, but of course drawing on a whole myriad of different traditions, including Marx gospel, oral traditions, and also gospels that were only found, you know,

in more recent times that never made the cut, never made the edit, such as the Gospel of Thomas, which essentially is page after page of sayings of Jesus. No narrative, just sayings of Jesus. And when archaeologists were digging in Egypt, they found these early sayings of Jesus that may even predate Mark, is that right? Without a doubt they predate Mark, absolutely. So yes, the sands of Egypt and also some of the old libraries of Egypt in Sinai, St. Catharines, for instance, you know, have unearthed documents which are earlier than the gospel writing. So continue to contain a much, much earlier tradition. So Matthew is using all of these.

And fragments of those survive in things like the beatitudes. They're like compilations when it says, Blessed is the Beast Makers. And the Beatitudes are, I mean, not all of us are good Catholic boys. What are the beatitudes? This is where Jesus basically gives his instructions about, you know, who is fit for the kingdom of God. So these are very, very old sayings indeed. Right. Okay. Can we do the presents now? Can we do the presents? Is it time for the presents?

I want to do the presents. Can we do the presents? Right. What is the symbolism of gold, frankincense and the much maligned? And what are they also? Yeah. This is the thing. They are symbolic gifts. You've absolutely got it right. I got priestly friends who, you know, some women priests who say to me, wouldn't it have been better if they'd bought a casserole and some nappies and, you know, whatever? I think absolutely. I can really say the point in that. I feel them, sisters. Napi wife is what they're really good.

Yes, yes, yes, all very, very. Well, you know, obviously these gifts, these three gifts have a great symbolic value. So first of all, we've got gold. Gold is for kingship, of course, you know. We don't know what form this gold comes in. If it comes in gold coin, if it comes in gold bars, we don't know. We're not told any of those specifics. And is this a reference to Jesus supposedly being of David's line and David was a king?

King David. Yes, so it's about his kingliness, okay? And that's the point that Matthew wants to stress all the time that he is the heir of the kingdom of David. So that's his kingliness, his earthly kingliness dealt with. Then we have incense. Matthew doesn't actually say frankincense. He just says incense, which is fine. We can read frankincense into that. And of course, this is to celebrate Christ's divinity because incense in a way was the food of the gods. You burn masses of incense so that the gods, no matter what gods you're dealing with, are pleased by its aroma. So this is the godhead of Christ being celebrated. As Hindu gods are still with Agabatis in a Hindu temple. Precisely, precisely. And then, of course, there is the ubiquitous

moir. And muir is there. You could say properly. Merv. And that is there to remind us of Christ's death because myr was the most required spice that was needed for embalming. So when Jesus is crucified, we read in several of the Gospels that his body is taken by the women from the cross, and then they start to embalm or oil his corpse, and that is done with myr. It's a bittersweet kind of smell to it. From Arabia, like it said? From Arabia. From Arabia. From Arabia. From Arras. Arabia, exactly. And it's very strong, very potent, which, of course, in a hot country is very much needed to cover up the stench of decay of a body as quickly as possible. So that's the rationale behind the gifts. Kingship, divinity, tragic death. And are they in any way linked to Zoroastrianism and

Magi? Is he choosing appropriate gifts for Magi to give? No. There's nothing in that whatsoever, which is unusual. So this is something that just speaks. to Christ himself. It's almost as though though, if we read into the text, it's almost as though the Magi recognize that this is what this infant needs. But here's the rub, okay?

So we have three gifts offered, but nowhere does Matthew tell us that we just have three Maja. Oh. Matthew is absolutely silent on the number of Magi who appeared. Oh God, I'm just looking through it. Yes, he just says,

Wise Men from them. It's meant from the east. That's all it is. We have no idea. So we could have 20 coming and they're just sharing gifts. Or someone brought a casserole. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There are two of them. And they've brought some extra gold. We have no idea. And in fact, in later traditions, and we can talk about this later, in Syriac tradition, for instance, there's 24. Alternatively, there are 12. So if you're a Syriac Christian, you get to have 24 wise men in school play. For wise men, absolutely. Part for everybody there. Incidentally, I always wanted to play a wise man because of my love of the Orientalist. Even back then, really?

Oh, yes, yes, yes. And I was always either head shepherd or Joseph. And that would have been a great honour to most people. But I wanted a turban and meur more than anything else. Seriously, we've cornered the market. I know. I know. I know.

generation nations. Just, you know, sorry, sorry, not sorry. But also, I mean, I just since we're putting our cards on the table, I would always be one of the angels, because I had a very high singing voice, and I always longed to be Mary to hold the doll. And I would have elbowed the woman who got it off the stage. Absolutely. If I had, I was the most demonic angel.

And I've got photographs, child of photos, of me giving her the cider. I'm going to shove her off the stage. Oh, I've got photographs. of me as head shepherd, not happy, not happy at all. So one thing that we haven't talked about in these wise men of these, however many there were, is the names which we have all come to associate with the three wise men or kings that we celebrate in nativities here in the West. That's Melchior, Casper and Balthazar.

Now, we're going to do this and delve into this with Lloyd in the next episode of this Majai, But we've also seen the representation of the three in old Byzantine mosaics as early as 565. I think earlier, yeah. Even earlier than that. Catecumns of Rome, catacombacombs of Priscilla. There are three wise men dressed in Parthian clothing. So that's what we're going to do in the next episode. They're not only identified as three, but they get given backstories and names.

And if Matthew doesn't do it, who does it? So that's what we're going to talk about. One last thing, Lloyd, before we leave today, we've talked a little bit about the catacomb of Priscilla, just so that people know. These are the burial place of the very first Christians of Rome. The catecum of Priscilla, which you mentioned is about 150 AD. 150 AD, something like that.

So very early on, you know, in the Christian tradition. And we see Mary seated with the infant Jesus on her lap, and then three very splendidly dressed magi in front of her. each holding a separate gift. They're not really can't make out the details of the gifts at all. But that's part of the visual tradition, which expands and expands. And this is quite important in a little bit of later history. And I love this story.

In Ravenna, we see very clearly the Magi coming with gifts. And they are, as you say, specifically dressed in very fancy Parthian dress. They've got stripy pajamas. Some of them have got dots on their pajamas. They've got cloaks behind them, fancy hair. But there is another mosaic which is now lost, which was on the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. And it sat over the main gate. And when in 614 the Persians did turn up in this part of the world and burn the Byzantine cities of, particularly Jerusalem, they attack,

they don't burn the church of the nativity because there's pictures of their own people over the main gate. So this image saves the church's nativity to this day. Yeah, to this day, absolutely. Look, there's so much to talk about, and we are so excited to have Lloyd Welland James with us. So we're going to delve into the identity of these three mosaic characters that you've just been hearing about. But if you don't want to wait, you don't have to wait.

Just join our club, EmpirePod UK.com, EmpirePod UK.com. And then when we do these tiny mini-series, you get them all in one go. So you can go on an extra long dog walk. You've got lots of washing up to do. I know you have. You get our bonus episodes. You can listen to two while they're doing it. Cheers it all up.

Anyway, until the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnon. And goodbye from me, William Duremberg.