Empire: World History - 260. Yalta: Signing Away The Fate of The World (Ep 5)

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Did the Western powers fail at Yalta? Did Churchill hold strong in his red line about the fate of Poland? Why did the Big Three eat a huge feast in the middle of a war zone? In the final episode in the story of the infamous Yalta conference, Anita and William discuss the moment that Stalin, FDR, and Churchill signed on the dotted line.  ----------------- Empire Club: Become a member of the Empire Club to receive early access to miniseries, ad-free listening, early access to live show tickets, bonus episodes, book discounts, our exclusive newsletter, and access to our members’ chatroom on Discord! Head to empirepoduk.com to sign up. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com.  ----------------- Email: [e-mail] Instagram: @empirepoduk  Blue Sky: @empirepoduk  X: @empirepoduk Assistant Producer: Becki Hills Producer: Anouska Lewis Senior Producer: Callum Hill Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community. Discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast, add free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to Empire Club at www.mpowerpoduk.com. And welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnan. And me, William Durimple. Who is wrapped up like an Arctic explorer because he's back in the UK. A bit of a shock. Look, we're picking up the baton in our big Yalta relay race.

And we're right at the end. We're on the end stretch. And this is, I mean, just you've got to imagine what they are feeling. Because, you know, it's been a long, painful five days for them so far. All that caviar. I know desperate. Well, I mean, the caviar and vodka is one thing. And also much less vodka for Stalin, because as we've been saying,

and he's been watering down his drinks while, you know, Churchill's been knocking them back. As Churchill tended to do. Well, and also it's really deeply criticised by his team. You know, the more I read about it, the more I see that they are sick and tired of him, turning up to meetings, completely sloshed. He starts with Bollinger in the bath in the morning, which is something that I should try to do. I feel Bollinger on the bath rack is a really good start to the day. So you've just leapt over my hurdle, which is, I never met anyone like that in my life.

My grandmother was a bit like that. I remember when I was coming, I used to stay with her when I was at Cambridge, and I thought of myself as this hard drinking undergraduate. And she and my great aunt would meet for lunch at about 11.30 and start off the dried Du Bonnese. Now, there's a flashback drink for Du Bonne. Yes. You'd never see it anywhere again, but it was very much part of my childhood. And those two, my grandmother by this stage must have been in her early 90s.

And my great aunt was in her mid-90s. And these two old dames would knock it back. And then they drink a bottle of red wine each day, each at table. I would be under the dining room table while they would be larking around. My grandmother finally died aged 104. 104. So, I mean, you've lived the Yalta vibes. Can I just tell you a very, very quick, because we mean, we need to crack on with this, but a very quick Dubono story.

You should explain what Dubonnet is. Dubono is an old-fashioned aperitif, which was fashionable in my youth in the 1970s, but which seems to completely died out of common parlance. Well, I'm just about to tell you this story. So my first job, I'd led a very sheltered life in Essex, as you know, limited anything, so Indian family, quite straight, never went out. Medical textbooks and also in my dad's waiting room were a whole bunch of lifestyle magazines from the 1970s. So I sort of devoured those, you know, doctors waiting rooms, they just have loads stacks, or they did in those days, stacks of old magazines. And I saw lots of adverts for Dubono. So the first time I went out, my first job, and my boss at the time was Amidab Butchon's brother, you know, very fashionable man around town,

Ajithabutchen. And he said, I'm going to buy everyone a drink. And I did not want to look like the town Yoko. So I said, could I have a Du Bonnet with a twist? Literally no idea what that was. I just said, DuPonne with a twist, because that's what the magazine from the 1970, I mean, you know, 15, 20 years later, it wasn't fashionable, but I didn't know that because the magazines I'd read said that it was. And he looked very confused and then got me one. And he thought I was so fascinating that I would choose such an off-menu drink that he ordered one for himself as well. And we both instantly regretted it. Instantly. It's horrible drink. No wonder, it's died out. But as if you were, Dubonnet was fairly strong in itself. But my grandmother,

great aunt, used to have it a dry Dubonet, which meant it was 50% gin. Oh, good Lord. Anyway. The same generation as Churchill those days do. Now, now, now, now, concentrating, concentrating. There is a fantastic account of day six in Yalta. I'm just going to read you a little bit from Daughters of Yalta, which is fabulous. And it's a first-hand account from a poor man, Robert Hopkins, who is 23 years old. He's the son of Harry Hopkins, one of the American delegation.

And he is the photographer. This is poor Robert trying to herd cats, okay? First, Mr. President, I'd like to have Mr. Statenius stand behind you with Mr. Molotov behind Marshall Stalin, Mr. Eden behind the Prime Minister Churchill. Then I'd like the others who participated in the deliberations to move in, so they'll be included in the photograph. So it's a record of the conference. But no one's listening to him.

So he's having trouble corraling all these three nations together, these statesmen. The senior military leaders are ranging free like wildebeest in the background. There are three large oriental rugs laid out in front of them in the Italian courtyard. at the Lovadia Palace where all of these talks have been taking place. So this is the very famous photo that you will all see when you look up Yalta. You've got Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin sitting in the row of chairs, waiting for the others to pose behind him. Churchill on the left, looking, as Hopkins remembered, Cherubic, in his grey coat and furry Russian hat.

And indeed, looking as if he has already had quite a lot of the Bollinger from his bathroom already, quite a lot of the pictures, he's sort of giggling and cackling, and he's got a cigar. Yes, I mean, dare I say, in an unserious mood, Roosevelt's in the middle, smoking on a cigarette, and he's really very, very unwell. And remember, he wanted to leave early and they just don't want him to go. So he's got this naval cape over his shoulders because he is so cold and so feeling here on Stalin. It's a naval cape. I wondered what it was. It looks like he's going to the opera. Yes, indeed. So poor Old Hopkins is trying to get all the background cast to just look at the camera. But what he notices is that nobody, nobody's listening to him.

The delegates are behaving like a group of unruly schoolchildren having a class picture taken. No one is listening to the instructions. So the photograph that you see after all of that and Paul Hopkins trying to get them in order is one where none of the background are looking at the camera. You've got the three of them looking in different directions. Literally no one is sort of recording this for posterity. It is such a fabulous photograph. Churchill is laughing his head off.

Stalin's looking in the wrong direction. The chiefs of staff are chatting to each other at the back. And that is the image of the Yalta conference that we will all live with for the rest of our lives. There is a less disorganised one, which is on the front of her. My favourite book, which I recommend again, Serre Blochie's Yalta, the Price of Peace. Shall I tell you about that one?

So that one's taken by a Red Army captain called Sam Ray Gori, and that as well. The photograph stories are so wonderful. So, you know, he is trying to take this photograph. And of course, because it's the Russian photograph, so they're all much more in order because Stalin's barking at them. They're all scared of him. But he takes this photograph.

He thinks he's got the image. And in his haste, because, you know, his hands are slightly shaky because you do something for Stalin. You do hands shake. He opens his camera before rewinding the film. And he thinks, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, and he thinks he has ruined the film. And Gorey, who knows Stalin personally vets official photographs of himself, has taken.

has 10 minutes of pure hell where he thinks I'm going to die. My life is hanging by thread. Indeed, that's what he said. And luckily, when he gets to the dark room, the shots are undamaged. And that is your photograph, which is also the photograph that exists in Prado. And that one is a wonderful one. You've got all three of them getting on very well, apparently, in this picture. This is the picture that makes it look as if the big three are all absolutely on the same page.

Churchill is smirking with a cigar on his mouth. Roosevelt is looking towards Churchill, but maybe slightly past him. And Uncle Joe is sort of leaning in, looking as if they're all getting on like a house on fire. You've never to detect that the hope that Cold War was about to break out a year later. And Europe would be ripped into pieces. Now, draw your attention to the photographs because I think they symbolise the entire Yachter Conference, which is there's this projected image of look at us all together. but there is absolute disarray in the background, really seriously disarray with people.

We've talked about this in the last couple of episodes, going behind each other's backs, having secret meetings with each other and not telling their allies. And it's pretty messy. So look, let's get back to the day itself. So, you know, they have their 4.30 as usual, they start their big meeting. They do this every day in Yalta. Just to remind people, it's the foreign ministers who get together in the morning and try and thrash out the details from the day before.

And then the grown-ups, the big three, Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill meet at 4.30. And at that time, they have what they call the plenary session, where the kind of the future of Europe is about to be, and the wider world, Asia too, is discussed. And these are, you know, some of the most crucial hours, because from this, the map of the world will be changed for the next, well, what is it, 50 years. But the foreign ministers can't agree. And this actually sets up the afternoon. And it's kind of like a theme of the conference where they send the foreign ministers off and say, do the work. And in the evening, we'll, you know, we'll agree things. We'll be sort of beneficent. Or that's certainly what Roosevelt is hoping. That's what he wants. He wants this to be a huge legacy building, epoch making conference. The piece will be one. You know, we are going to remake the world in a better image. But the thing is they haven't been able to agree. And that's because, again, the subject. of Poland has come up. And there is this huge, again, row over who should lead Poland. Now, it's kind of a redundant conversation because the Soviets have already got their friendly government in the Lublin government. You can say that this for the entire conference, that it's held

with the Soviets already in control of all of Eastern Europe. And so it, and no one wants to go to war again, in a sense, nine-tenths of it is settled before they ever actually sit down at the table, which is why it results in this catastrophe for Eastern Europe, which anyone all the way from Berlin eastwards regards as the great betrayal. Exactly that. But do you remember the last time that Poland was raised, there was this kind of really odd statement that was wafted by the Soviets to try and shut everybody up, which is we will have some kind of democratic process sometime in the future. We'll do a thing. We're not saying what the thing is, but it'll be a thing.

And it's going to, yeah, it's going to be a democratic thing. No, totally. It's going to be, you know, on democratic sort of. Absolutely no details of any sort of. No. But Churchill has completely had time to think about this. And in the sobriety of the morning, things that, actually, this is not okay. We need to put the wording of what this new new government in Poland. After all, we went to war because of Poland. That was the reason we entered the war. We need to know what it is. So they start then in the afternoon, out how this government is going to be formed because they want some clarity now. Quite you quite rightly, it's the most sort of nebulous offering that the Soviets have made. So they start talking about having the addition of non-fascist and anti-fascist politicians.

That's very important, and they don't think the Soviets will object to that because they don't like fascists. But they also want to have ambassadors who will observe this, you know, at some point in the future, Soviet-promised election to make sure that it is actually a democratic election. Now, of course, Molotov has had time to think this over too. He sees what the foreign ministers are talking about. He goes back to Stalin, goes, they want to send observers. Stalin goes, bugger that? No. Why would I, why would we agree to this? Why would we have this? Now, all of this is wafting around before they even sit down for their plenary session in the afternoon. So Churchill knows that there is a wriggle manoeuvre on, and Poland will very easily be betrayed in the future. He also knows Roosevelt has not got his back because Roosevelt for some reason, and he doesn't know these private conversations that are going on, promising chunks of China, Roosevelt's own ally, to the Russians. He doesn't know that Stalin thinks he's got it in the bag and is just basically wafting them along because he has very little respect for Churchill in these talks.

So he starts pushing the issue. No, we've got 48 hours of these meetings left. Polish democracy is important. I think we need. And I think the phrase he says, everyone is eager to put in the stirrup and be off. We want to leave, especially Roosevelt. He's halfway out the door already. So can we please sort out this wording. And what happens when things get really hard? They take a break. They just always take a break. Because Roosevelt can see that these things are going to sort of derail the talks, we'll circle back to it. Roosevelt is at the time and afterwards for historians, the Sphinx that no one can really understand. And looking back on this conference from where we stand now, you keep thinking that if only Roosevelt had focused a bit more in Eastern Europe, it could have been a different outcome. Also, the business that we talked about on earlier episodes, about how the Russians already know, because of intelligence leaks, all the red lines of the Western negotiations, and they know that they can hold the line they want to

without the West knowing their red lines. And subsequently, when the Soviet archives were opened after 1989, it was very clear that the Soviets could have been pushed a bit further, that they could have been persuaded to move the borders of Poland. They could not believe how lucky they were getting. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they couldn't believe their luck, but they also have strategies and pushback.

So, you know, while Poland is sort of percolating in the background, mischievously, the Americans say, you know, because they know that Churchill's going to kick off. They say, we should actually also talk about the role of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council that we are forming. And we should talk about territorial trusteeships for other countries. The phrase in itself, territorial trusteeship, what the hell does that mean? For former colonies, wasn't it? There was the phrase that you. Well, that's the thing that he slips in.

Former colonies. So Churchill's like, what? The British Empire is made up of, what? What are you talking about former colonies? He really, the language is a complete red flag, because this is a direct attack on the empire and what on earth does he want meddling other countries to talk about, you know, the colonies after the war, even if they are former colonies. So he gets up in a great agitation and he starts sort of doing the hammering on the table that his team are quite embarrassed by that he does fairly often. He's a great jabber of tables.

Stalin does it not so often, but when he does it, everybody sort of wets themselves. But under no circumstances, Churchill insists, will he ever consent to 40 or 50 nations thrusting interfering fingers into the life existence of the British Empire? Again, we should perhaps remind listeners that Churchill all his life had seen himself as the great defender of the British Empire, from his 20s in the Northwest Frontier through to the Boer War. his entire life was about defending the British Empire. So this guy now, in his old age, is not going to see his final act in the sense. And he's aware that this may be his final act, giving away everything he's fought for all his life. He's failing to defend Poland. And now, suddenly, Roosevelt has suddenly used a turn of phrase that makes it sound like he's carving up the British Empire. So Roosevelt is really, but if you look at Stasinius' recollections of this, they are genuinely

startled because they weren't talking about the empire. So they weren't. They were like, they were talking about something else. But that's how touchy it is with Churchill. So they're sort of like, what? And they say, no, no, no. We weren't talking about the British Empire. We were talking about liberated areas taken from the enemy like the Japanese islands in the Pacific. Would you calm down? But Churchill still, that wording is not good for him. And he thinks everyone's ganging up against him and he sits down, shaking with rage, stabbing the table saying, never, never. Never, never.

And they have to call another recess for him to calm down. But his team are also not at all happy with Churchill's performance. They can see him, A, arriving often a little bit worse for wear from the morning bolly. And they're also aware that his sort of histrionic passion, which plays so well on the radio. We remember Churchill because of those radio speeches. We will fight on the beaches and this sort of stuff. But it doesn't work so well at the negotiating table where the kind of cool of Stalin's preparedness and calm gets much better results. Well, they're all fans of Uncle Joe.

I mean, he's already been on the front page of Time magazine. He's going to be on Newsweek very shortly. I mean, you know, the guy is the guy of the hour. So after the recess, after he's calmed down, they get back on Poland, which is not going to improve anybody's indigestion at all. And again, it goes round and round and round about, you know, ambassadors, no, I don't want ambassadors. I don't want people observing any elections. You've just got to trust us. Look, we're in Poland right now. We're saying to you it's going to be democratic. Don't stop worrying about it. Stop worrying about it, say the Soviets. But it's getting stuck again. And Roosevelt starts literally pleading with everyone.

Just, you know, what are you doing? And he says, we are now very near an agreement, a little more work done by the foreign ministers. We'll work this out. We'll settle this. He says it's only a matter of words and details. I mean, it's a lot more than that. So, you know, they try. again, not to get bogged down in Poland, but they're getting bogged down in Poland. And then Stalin does this clever thing, which is like, yeah, okay, we'll circle back to Poland. The circling back to Poland is a theme of the Yalta conference. It's like, well, just put the grenade in the middle of the table and we'll just talk about the fruit basket over here. They do it every time Poland comes up. So then it says, let Stalin says, let's just talk about the joint declaration on a liberated

Europe. So this is a statement. They're meant, the whole point of Yalta, they're going to be statements and communicates about a pathway for. in a peaceful world. And it's been drafted by the United States. It's been approved by the foreign ministers. It's a page and a half long and it's got all these sort of high-flown ideals of what the new world is going to be. And Roosevelt sees this as his legacy speech in the sense. His document. Yeah. Exactly. So it speaks of reestablishing order in Europe to allow, and this is a phraseology from the document, liberated peoples to destroy the last vestiges of Nazism and fascism and to create democratic institutions of their own choice. And it will

uphold the rights of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they live. Molotov says, how about your statement? And he looks at Stalin, this is going too far. It seems like quite a nice thing. This is going too far. And then Stalin, they do this double act, because he's obviously told Molotov, Stone asks, you go in hard like we always do, and I'll do that. I'll be the good cop. Calm down. It's not worth it. And Stalin says, don't worry. We'll work it out. We can deal with it in our own way later. The point is the correlation of forces. What does that mean the correlation of forces?

That we need to get the war done. We just need to get our stuff sorted. We need to get there first and let's just not do anything. But again, you see the sort of role reversal. And you have then on this declaration, something extraordinary that happens, William. What does Stalin do? He backs down as it seems. Which is unthinkable.

Yeah. Looks like to everybody he's backing down. And what does he say? says that he will accept it subject to a small amendment, that support will be given, particularly, quote, to the political leaders of those countries who have taken an active part in the struggle against German invaders. And Roosevelt points out, as far as he's concerned, the Declaration would apply to, quotes again, any areas or countries where it was needed, including Poland, where the elections would be the first practical test of the declaration.

And this looks like Stalin has given ground, but Stalin knows that he controls Poland. And there's not much that the Allies are going to be able to do. And it's a very, very long way from the Western Front Line. What are you going to do? You have your declaration and we'll see is basically the mood at the table. But everybody just hears what they want to hear. So those who want to hear that Stalin's backing down on this, they're satisfied. This is a very important point.

I'm always looking back to Serege Plochie, who's been... the Soviet archives once they were released from the mid-80s onwards. And what he is very interesting about is that there is no official record to be able to. It isn't like they all agree on the exact way. On how it went. Yeah, how it went. And it's very clear in the archives that everyone is coming away from each session with completely different ideas of what has actually been agreed. And the Soviets read it completely differently. And whether this is partly because the problems of translation and whether the interpreters are spinning things. May I venture an opinion? It is Roosevelt deliberately using ambiguous language. It's Roosevelt using, it's the problem with

Roosevelt who's trying to be the peacemaker using ambiguous language and actually shirking away from the points of contention because what he wants is for this to work. But what working means is just getting through the bloody eight days and having something, right? That's it. And his two main goals which are achieved, which is bringing the Soviets into the war against Japan and the creation of the United Nations. And if he can walk away with those two, he regards it as a win. But Churchill is not getting anything he wants. No, but even for Roosevelt, when this idea is of, you know, sort of only giving these concessions as Stalin wants to those who have actively struggled against and fought with the Nazis, he's, you know, not interested

in the smaller states, but he is really interested in the small estates. Rosalvel says, look, Like Caesar's wife, they must, meaning them, the people in Yorta, must be above suspicion. And Stalin comes back, Caesar's wife had that reputation, but in fact, he says darkly, she had her sins. And again, these sort of statements sort of a hang over the table, meaning yes, yes. You talk about Caesar's wife and we have to be completely transparent and honourable about this. But, you know, the woman was a bit of a goer on the side. And everyone just moves on, moving on, as if that's now settled. So the declaration anyway kind of gets passed through.

Stalin lets his statement hang in the air. It's not worth the row right now because it'll work out in his favour in time, he's absolutely sure of it. And as the session draws to a close, Churchill says the Allied defensive in the West has begun. So he's got big news. 100,000 British and Canadian soldiers have attacked at dawn. Operation veritable is proving a success and advancing at some speed.

So this offensive, Anita, is around Niemigan. Anyone that remembers the movie A Bridge Too Far? These are the three rivers. Is it the Mars, the Rhine? What's the third one? The Valle. That's it. And this is the fatal German resistance, which had meant that the Allies are late to Berlin. The Soviets are already there. And their inability to cross this first time is what, in a sense, gave way half of Eastern Europe. But now, finally, 100,000 troops have attacked at dawn and have have advanced some distance. So this great block, which is one of the main problems behind Yelta, is now finally being sorted out. And there's a second wave from the US 9th Army, which will push forward the next day. Right. So in the evening, it's just an interesting observation. And we really owe so much to the daughters of Yalta who go along to this. And some of their records are invaluable. Also, you know, everyone's keeping diaries at this point. Rosevelt's back at his Livaldea Palace chambers and he's having an alcoholic rubdown and his doctor's very worried about it.

What does that mean alcoholic rubdown? It's just a massage. It's a massage. But with sort of raw vodka rather than oil, is that? Not vodka, no, sort of liniment to ease your muscles. That's what it is. Yeah. So he's having that and he's always worried about the president who seems to be falling to pieces. But he finds him in a pretty sort of upbeat, buoyant kind of mood. And it is with his old smile, as the doctor, that he announces, Rosevelt this is, I've got everything I came for, and not at too high a price.

Stalin had his greed to full participation in the UN. Furthermore, the Soviet Union will enter the war against Japan at an early date. The only fly in the ointment is Poland. Now, that fly is the thing that's keeping Churchill, who's not having an alcoholic rub at all, really stressed out in the Ronssov Palace. And, you know, he's cabling his cabinet,

trying to press on Poland, talking to the exiled government in London saying, look, this is what's happening behind your back. Tell them this is what's happening. And he says, you know, we need to make sure we understand what's going on in Poland because once that train starts moving and we're not on it, we have no control about the direction of Poland. We're not enormous fans of Churchill on this podcast and we've done whole issues on the Bengal famine where Churchill is right here. But here is absolutely the point when Churchill gets it and Roosevelt doesn't. And Churchill realizes that not just Poland, Poland, you can read the whole of Eastern Europe,

is being given away at this point to the Soviets. And he says at one point, they don't seem to realize that Russia is a police state. And he gets this, he gets this crucial point. He foresees what will happen to Eastern Europe in the 50s and 60s and the 70s. And Roosevelt also run like Trump today, just I think seems to regard you. up as far away and not his problem. Well, he doesn't care. It's so far. It's not his, it's not in his sphere of influence. You know, it doesn't care. It'll be fine. So look, that's what's happening. They're all in their different states of mind. The foreign ministers, again, they don't sleep at all. So they're working

through the night. How do we get some wording on Poland that will get us out of here and go home to the people that we love? Because we are frankly sick of this. We need to, we need to move. We'll take a break here. Join us after the break. We're a new day dawns and we are on the home straight. Welcome back. So, okay, so it's been a strange night for the big three in Yalta, with two sort of feeling like they're getting where they want to be. Roosevelt and Stalin having quite a good night. Churchill in absolute twists over the fact that this is all going wrong. So the next day, this is the really thorny subject that is the main meat of the day, which is reparations. Now, do you remember that Panto that we talked about where Stalin and Molotov are

talking about how much money they'll get out of Germany, right? And they just basically pluck numbers out of the air, honestly. So they quite rightly argue that their country has been devastated. The Soviet Union has been devastated by the war. They have lost blood and coin that is enormous, and they need to rebuild. And this is visible around Yelta, that Churchill and Roosevelt can see the complete wreck of the Crimea. Tripping over skeletons, even while they're sort of out, going back and eating their caviar, and people are starving. They can see it with their own eyes, right? So, you know, this weird thing that they had, should we ask for five or ten, says Molotov, and Stalin under his breath, turn, go for ten, and I will tell you to calm down, but go for ten.

And Churchill, even at the time, is going, that's nuts. So now they're talking about a possible total on this day of 20 billion in reparations. And even the Soviet official, Ivan Mazzinski, complains that the British seem absolutely dead set. The British are saying the reparations, they don't have that much money. There's no way there's no way there's that much money in Germany. Be reasonable. What are you going to do? Reduce them to this sort of rubble state, where we, the rest of Western Europe are going to have to feed them, clothe them, look after them. What are you doing? What exactly are you leaving in the middle of Europe? Maiski says, you know what? They want us to take as little from Germany as possible. And so,

there is actually a deep-seated and real, I think. This is not just mischief, belief that the Russians or the Soviets are saying they don't want to give us the money despite everything we've lost. And Churchill, Roosevelt's somewhere floating at the top, not really caring very much, but Churchill's saying, there isn't this much money. You are going to leave a barren famine desert in the middle of Western Europe and with a people who are going to have no ability to have a future. And so, you know, this is going to be the massive sort of blowout point. And behind Churchill's analysis is this understanding that he has that the harshness of the Versailles reparations after World War I was one of the things that propelled Hitler into power in

the 1930s. The fact that the Germans thought they'd had everything taken from them, far more than they deserved, creates a sense that they've been robbed. And this is a bus onto which Hitler jumps in the 1930s. And his entire rise to power in Churchill's view is because of the greed and the harshness of the Versailles Treaty. And he's wanting to avoid this. But the Soviets just think, you know, we want every bit of machinery. We want every last washing machine. We're going to squeeze the lemon until the pips come out.

Absolutely. So that's sort of the defining air of this penultimate day, it will turn out of Yalta. But it wouldn't be Yalta if people weren't meeting behind people's backs. That's what that's, you know, that's been a thing. So in the early afternoon, you've got sort of Harriman, who is the American and Molotov meeting to finalize their secret agreement on Soviet terms for entry into the war, right? They've sort of come to an arrangement. Do you remember that sort of handshake that happened between Stalin and Roosevelt and Churchill's on the outside saying, let me in, let me in. Why can't I go in? And they're saying, just wait, wait out here.

They're, you know, grown-ups are talking, that awful scene for Churchill. Now, what happens is that the Soviets change their ask, right at the 11th hour. They say, you know, we talked about these things and we agreed these things. But the thing is, we'd quite like to take a little more of China. If you want us, we want a bit more of China. So we want this port, Darren, in the northeast of China. We would also like Port Arthur. It's another harbour that the Chinese have got, we'd like to take that too. And we'd like the Manchurian Railroad as well. And this is all, this is all stuff that, you know, Russia had lost. I mean, you know, you were, you were going to say this is the great Japanese victory over the Soviets in 1905. We talked about this, didn't we,

in another podcast. But this is horrifying to Harriman, who's like, why are they changing the rules? What on earth are they doing? And he sort of says, I can't agree to this. I need to talk to Roosevelt about this. And just to flag why this is important, if you control the Manchurian railroad, you have the backroad into China. And this is all part of supporting Mao and Chinese communists. So again, those that attack Yalta say not only does it giving away great chunks of Eastern Europe, it's one of the main ways in which the communists come to power in China. That's the argument of those who regard this conference as a disaster. And this is the point of which suddenly that new front is opened up in the Russian diplomacy.

So this is just for Roosevelt, who thinks his deal is done and he's already sort of packing his handkerchiefs and things. This is a disaster. because, you know, he's already betraying his ally, Chiang Kai Shek, by giving away bits of his territory that he's already agreed to. And now, what, he's meant to agree to paralyze his country, and all the major routes and ports that he's being asked to give them away. So they're all in a real fluster. Again, just imagine these big three sitting around a table.

Imagine that photograph. We're such friends. We're sorting it all out. And there's just this horror show going on in the back. background. And Harriman realizes what a big deal this is, doesn't he? He stalls. And he said he can't possibly agree to this without consulting the president. And the president says, I'm not doing it. He assumes that Roosevelt will require both Port Arthur and Darren to be free ports and that the Manchurian railway at the very least should be operated jointly by the Chinese and Soviets,

rather than the Soviets having complete control. This opens the door to what will befall the whole Eastern Front and China in the immediate post-war period. So this is, again, a crucial outcome of the Yalta. All of the swirling resentments ago where I'm saying there's Poland. Now there's the added tension for Roosevelt. What the hell is Stalin asking for in China now? This is all just moving too fast. So Churchill, perhaps trying to get on the front foot, starts talking about the repatriation of prisoners of war. Let's talk about something else that we can maybe agree on. what does Stalin want the British to do with the enormous number of former Russian POWs that they're holding? And Stalin just waves in his hands, return them all as quickly as possible.

And those who fought for the Nautis will be dealt with, he says. That's, you know, what that means for him. So Churchill then asks, can you tell us how many British POWs, the Red Army, has liberated? And if you have, could you just make sure you treat them well? he begs for good treatment for them. Every mother in England is anxious about the fate of our prisoner sons. And Stalin says, yeah, sure, send a liaison. We'll get them behind Red Army lines. They'll be cared for. It's fine. So it looks as though, you know, there are concessions being made. They can do something, even though Stalin has said his will be dealt with. And nobody asks him,

what do you mean by that? What do you mean by exactly by that? So again, you've got Roosevelt trying to sort of convey this Bonamy. He's designed these special engraved fourth. term inaugural medallions commemorating his recent election and he does this huge giving over to Churchill, Stalin, Eden, Molotov, they all get a lovely medal. And then he and Stalin again withdraw to the study to confer about what were you saying about the ports? No, Churchill doesn't know any of this. You know, so what the hell is going on? And he finally says, actually, I've got a red line. That port that you want, Darren, that's going to be a free port. This is Roosevelt saying this, is it?

Rosevelt says it, yeah. I can't give you, Darren. There's just no way. It's not going to happen. Port Arthur, how about if you have a Russian naval base there? Will that satisfy you? Yes, okay, Stalin might. And you could lease it, he says to the Soviet Union. So Stalin says that, okay, we'll, yeah, okay, we can do that. Rosevelt and Stalin agree that would be all right. and they think, again, they've found some kind of solution. But it is giving so much, again, to the Soviets. Again, other people's territory who are not around that table, which is going to lead to a lot of problems in the future.

The next issue on the agenda is reparations. Now, we talked before about how the Soviets were asking for the crazy $20 billion. Churchill's war cabinet in London tells him not to agree to any specific totality. arguing that 20 billion is anyway, far too great and beyond all the capacity of a bomb, defeated, and perhaps dismembered Germany to pay. Churchill knows how much this will anger Stalin. Everyone does. And Roosevelt actually tries to save the day, suggesting that nothing needed to be said publicly about the amounts of money which should be left to the reparations committee. But this does nothing to stave off Stalin, who's absolutely furious.

And he clutches his chair so tightly that his, quote, Brown hands go white at the knuckles. And he's very good at this, Stalin. He can play fury and strike fear, even into his allies' hearts. And he spits out his words as if they burn his mouth. Great stretches of his country have been laid waste. Is this the wish of the conference that the Russians should not receive any reparations at all? So Roosevelt soothes him down. He says, the whole matter should be left to a commission in Moscow. but Churchill refuses to budge on specifying any total figure. And this goes backwards and forwards.

Everyone's looking angry at this point. So again, there's a sort of, let's just fudge it and move on. Can we just fudge it? So they agree, or rather Stalin proposes a new wording that he hopes will satisfy everyone. That the leaders agree, Germany must compensate the Allied nation so the damage she has caused and will instruct the Moscow Commission to consider the amounts of reparation. And everyone says, okay, that sounds right. And Stalin, though, pointedly looks at the other two of the big three, saying, you will not go back on this tomorrow.

And they'll go, of course not. You know, we agreed to think. Now, in his head, you will not go back on this tomorrow means you will not go back on. It is 20 billion. I know that's what it is. We're going to halve it and 10 billion is going to go to the Soviets. You're not going to go back on this tomorrow. I'm agreeing to your fudgy words, but this is what we know here at the table.

Now what they hear is we're going to have the commission look at how much money we're going to get in reparations and of course we won't go back on that tomorrow because it's a process and we're going to have finer minds than ours actually digging into the pockets of Germany to see how much they can pay so everybody again has left with a completely different idea

of what they've come away from which is why everyone's sense of betrayal in the years after is going to be so acute. Many historians interpret this is the sort of thing which creates the grounds for the coal all the future disagreements that will freeze Europe for 50 years are laid in the misunderstandings and the unsaid and unfinished misagreements or disagreements, yeah.

There is an extraordinary thing that does happen at the end of the meeting, though. So at the end of the meeting, it looks like everything's calm down. You know, they fudged everything that's difficult. Everyone's a winner, baby. Everyone's coming away from the table thinking they've got exactly what they want, and nobody has actually got what they want. So it's winding down and then suddenly out of the blue, Roosevelt announces, I'm leaving tomorrow at 3 o'clock, a day early.

This will be a day early, right? I'm leaving at 3. I thought, what are you? Why? Nothing is finished. Or in the middle of this. Literally nothing is finished here. And they sort of like, first of all, there's this absolute horror and shock.

And then Churchill says, really, and he really pleads to them, You cannot, you cannot, you must reconsider. We have not even got a conference communicator. Now, these things are really important after a conference. It lays out all of the achievements, all of the objectives, and a pathway forward. It's like, you know, if you're in a corporation, it's what they call a mission statement, okay? They haven't got one. They have not got the form of words, which will tell everybody,

what the hell these lot have been doing together at a time of war in Ukraine. So Stalin at this point suggests canceling the formal dinner that Churchill's delegation has spent the whole week preparing for. They've got everything on their tables. Their kitchens are heaving. And this is meant to be Churchill's big moment. So, of course, he doesn't want to cancel the dinner. And he suggests instead that a communique is drafted by committee, which will work during the night, but that the three big boys will sit down to their dinner.

And that finally is what happens. Churchill doesn't want to miss is. No, I mean, it's his big moment. And it is. It's again, it's one of these of crazy dinners. It is the last supper. It is the last supper. And it's bonkers again.

You know, there's caviar, there's salmon, there's sturgeon. There's suckling pig. I mean, I like doing the list because it's just, and I'll tell you why. Suckling pig with horseradish sauce, volavons of game. Choice of two soup. This is all, everyone has all of this. Choice of two soups. Then white fish and champagne sauce.

Then mutton shashlick and pilau rice. I don't go for the button shashlick. I'd have saved up for that. You and me both, baby. And wild goat from the steps. Then roast turkey, quails and partridge with green peas and finally ice cream, fruit, pettifors, roasted almonds and coffee, wine, vodka and champagne. In the middle of virtually a sort of famine in the crowsy. People are starving to death in the area.

There is something obscene about this. I know it's sort of national projection of look how strong we are, but there are literally mothers whose breasts are drying up because They can't feed their babies. And this is one dinner. People are trying to choose between the volvance and the horseradish sauce. They're not choosing, darling. They have both. All of these courses are presented to everybody.

This is not an al-a-carp menu. This is course after course after course. So anyway, look, it all, you know, they do. They're toasting. You're a great guy. I know you're a great guy. I know, you do a guy, you do a guy, utigai, uti, you do a guy, all of that. But there is sort of still simmering resentment, simmering, simmering resentment.

And Stalin sort of muttering to anyone who's going to listen to him at this very dinner where they're just feasting till they burst, says he's going to tell the Soviet people they're not going to get any reparations because the British oppose it. And he's like completely pointedly giving daggers to Churchill, saying that's what the story of this conference is going to be. you are setting yourself up to be the enemy of the Soviet Union. And Churchill, as we know, although he doesn't say it at the time, thinks, come on over here if you think you're hard enough. You know, he's the one man who's absolutely sure that the Soviet Union is a terrible thing for Europe. And he, again, will stand alone if he has to. But even Churchill's delegation are super impressed by the way that the Soviet, are winning argument after argument. One senior official writes, Joe, that Stalin, has been

extremely good. He is a great man and shows up very impressively against the background of the two other aging statesmen. The impression given is that Stalin is really the kind of full force of his command and Roosevelt is physically falling apart and Churchill is now so old and drunk that no one's taking any notice of it. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, Look, one thing that they do do is they manage to get Roosevelt to stay, which is good. Please don't just go off. Let's just finish yourself. What's Roosevelt rushing off for?

He's tired. He's not well. I mean, he doesn't say this. He sort of thinks that he's done all that he can do is what he says. He said, I think we can leave all of this to be wrapped up by the foreign ministers. And he's got what he's after. He's got the Soviets into the war in Japan. He's got his United Nations.

He's got all of that. You know, he's got what he needs. But look, what they do is they do spend the next day tying up ends. as much as they could with some of these fudgy things. They have this agreement setting out Stalin's rules and conditions for entering the Pacific War, and they ask him to sign. And the words, the heads of the three great powers have agreed that the claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled after Japan has been defeated.

And they make it clear that the US and the UK will ensure the Soviet Union receives its promised rewards, whatever the views of the nationalist Chinese leader, Chankai Shek, when he is eventually informed. Churchill, when he reads this, is kind of a little bit hurt that they've been negotiating this behind his back, but he knows as well that there are some battles he can win and some he can't. And also in his mind, it's a long way away. It's far.

It's their problem. They can deal with it. And I can't do anything about it. So then the main meeting is going to be all about, now they've sorted that out. Churchill has finally been brought on board and has made aware of it. the final plenary session is going to be the conference communicate, or as Churchill calls it, this bloody thing which they need to write and release to the world. And let's talk about what it ends up being. It's a detailed map of what's in store for Nazi Germany. So it's

unconditional surrender, disarmament, the removal or destruction of any industries with military applications, the trial of war criminals, the levying of reparations, number unspecified, and the imposition of allied zones of occupation, including one for France, which is what Churchill really wanted. And it also then confirms there is going to be a forthcoming UN conference in San Francisco that will contain the Declaration on Liberated Europe. So they've finally done it. They've finally done it. And their last session, William, lasts only 50 minutes because that's it. They really needed to stay to get this agreed, to get it all signed off. I think there is a very funny thing. when they try to decide who's going to sign the thing first.

Rosefelt says, so Stalin, since you're our host, you should sign first. And Stalin says, no, no, no, because it will look to the world as if I'm pushing you around and making you do things. You should sign first. What about Churchill goes, I think we should do an alphabetical order because then I'll go first. Which is just so funny. So they end up doing sort of one Russian version and one British version. Churchill also says I'm the oldest.

I'm alphabetically first and I'm the oldest. I should go first. So they do finally all sign it off anyway. And that is the final communique that the world will do. And this, we should say, is something that the world judges over the next 50 years as a monumental failure on the behalf of the West of Roosevelt and Churchill. I've got here, Sejih Procki's wonderful conclusions. He says, from the perspectives of the late 40s and early 50s, the Yalta agreements failed to prevent the Soviet takeover of Eastern Europe and were accused of creating conditions for the communist victory in China, where the Soviet Union were allocated a sphere of influence in Manchuria. And yet, if diplomacy is the art of the possible, and if one were to judge the results of Yalta according to the geopolitical and military situation at the time, time, one will conclude that the Western leaders achieved considerably more than they were subsequently accredited for. So this is the moment that so much is given away, but you can also argue

that there's absolutely nothing they could have done, given the fact that the whole of Eastern Europe was already in Soviet possession. There's a nice note also about my friend Timothy Gartanash, who writes in his book that when he first goes to Poland, he keeps hearing this very strange word in the 70s, that people keep talking about Yauta, and he wonders what this means. Does Yauta mean fate? And in fact, it's the Polish pronunciation of Yalta, which for generation is a synonym for betrayal. For the Polish, this is the moment that they are put under the jack boot of Russia for the next 50 years. And the fact that they didn't hammer down the details of what was going to happen to Poland is arguably the greatest failure.

and giving away the Manchurian railway. But Stalin holds the traffic cards, and there's very little, you know, there's very little maneuvering room that these guys have got. I was just going to say that actually, what else could they have done? I mean, they needed to end the war. They needed to work together.

There is also an argument that if they hadn't have hashed together, even this completely malformed and actually completely porous document that they produced at Yalta, the war could have dragged on and on and on and on and on and how many more lives would have been lost. There is a school of thought they did the best they could under the circumstances that they were facing. There's a very nice final paragraph in Serhi Plotky's book, and it's particularly interesting to read at the moment because this book was written before Trump comes to power, obviously. And yet it echoes all sorts of decisions that Europe's going to have to make now,

as Trump reassesses America's relationship with Putin. And here's what Plocki writes. Pocke is Ukrainian, so in a sense, he's very much from the part of the world that Yalta affected. Like any war, any peace is never a one-act play. It has its beginnings and its end, its ups and downs, its heroes and villains. It also has its price.

As Yalta shows, no matter how hard democratic leaders try, there is always the price to be paid for making alliances with dictatorships and totalitarian regimes. If you support an ally of convenience and build up his power, it can then become a difficult to keep him in check. Your enemy's enemy may well become your own enemy once the initial conflict is over, and unless the alliance is based on common values and principles. The world is too complex and dangerous a place for anyone to entertain the notion that democracies should ally themselves only with democracies, or that common value should serve as the sole foundation for future alliances,

but Yalta shows that the unity of democratic states is essential to achieve their common goals. There will always be ideological or cultural differences, not only between enemies but also between partners, as was the case of Yalta, and appreciation of those differences is essential to avoid overinflated expectations. Well, the expectations are certainly high when they all leave each other and they give each other hugs, and Roosevelt gives Stalin eight Legion of Merit decorations

for members of the Soviet military, a delegation saying, thank you so much for having us. It's been lovely. He also then ends... Thanks for all the caveat. With these words, yeah. He says,

we will meet again soon in Berlin. And in the next episode of Empire, we are going to be joined by the fabulous Charles Milton, who is going to take us through the extraordinary scramble for Berlin and what happens after. If you think this was rancorous

around the table, wait and see what happens. It's got to get worse. When the big three have to enact what they've decided at Yalta. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnannan. Hi, goodbye from me, William Derimple.